By ica on
Someone has to stop those Swiss guys.
Helvetica font is fine Swatches and Swiss Chocolate is fine but they should take away their hands from CMS's.
CMS's usability need not to be that simple to operate :)
http://cmsbox.netstyle.ch/files/documents/14/025rhdc5xpziumiuf77k6jhz76c...
Das Content Management System
http://cmsbox.netstyle.ch/
Comments
CMSBox has "Swiss prices"
CMSBox has "Swiss prices" too: the standard package costs 4000 Swiss francs, about 3300 American Dollars. And for that pocket money, you are "allowed" to set up a site with - brace yourselves - an astonishing, mind-boggling, whopping 10 (TEN !!) pages. Of course, you can get additional modules too. A contact form, for instance, will only cost you 300 dollars. A blog or a picture gallery are slightly more expensive, mind you. They would cost you 1500 dollars. Each. Want to increase the character size? 300 dollars. I did that on my old Joomla site too, this character thingy. It cost me about 20 lines of Javascript, which I copied from some Javascript repository site. I lost more time choosing among the dozens of solutions than with the actual implementation.
Come on, get serious.
Wonder if it has a taxonomy system. Probably yes, for a mere gazillion of dollars.
Ludo
surely you are right Ludo... but,
by posting the demo link.. I did not ment -or thought- to be make core full feature or licence/price comparaison with Drupal on that front at all.
Sure you are completely right on your points.. thats why i am and thousands Drupallers are here
Py pinting, my idea was to share what i came cross as an interesting solution -might also be found interesting by other Drupallers - maybe help a fresh look, to see things different way, to have small inspiration on some parts and bits of ideas -if possible... thats all
OK, the drag-and-drop
OK, the drag-and-drop facility looks nice (in the demo video at least). But it's like the original drag-and-drop in Windows: it's nice for some occasions (like meddling with layers in Photoshop), but completely superfluous for most others (I never use it in Word, Outlook or Access, for instance). And I sure am not going to dabble with it in site design as long as PHP doesn't include it in its core :-) .
But I agree, inspiration should come from everywhere, and all new ideas are wellcome. And I would have been an admirer of this facility had it been incorporated in an opensource CMS. But because of the price label these guys are using, I have to repeat what I said in my previous post: get serious (which was not meant for you, by the way, but for those Swiss guys :-) ).
Ludo
okay .. i understand your points
Maybe its to do with coming from different background.. you might be a PHP / JS coder, I am more into user interface and usability matters and we might see things differently.. ;) ...and i though there is a fresh look on that CMs from backend usability, UI point of view which always gets a negative critics on articles of CMS magazines
btw- i noticed minor typo's my previos post that i can not re edit
should read
Dno't worrry, I onderstuud
Dno't worrry, I onderstuud what yuu where wirting :-)
About the re-editing: Drupal has this habit of allowing a re-edit only as long as there is no post following the one you want to re-edit. Until then, you can re-edit, after that, you can't.
Lduo
interesting, but you know...
You could make this demo with Drupal 5. And depending on what's actually happening in that video (my German is not good enough to know) you could probably write the module too.
Making the demo with the
Making the demo with the video would be no big thing, I agree. But doing in Drupal what is actually being done in it, might be something else :-). It's all about designing a page by means of dragging-and-dropping elements. As far as I know, this is not exactly the case in designing Drupal pages :-)
But don't get me wrong: I'm not at all interested in dragging-and-dropping (leave alone CMS's of thousands of dollars).
Ludo
"what is actually being done
"what is actually being done in it" is the key. What is being done? I don't speak German so all I see is elements being created and dragged from one place to another which is all doable with jQuery. If that demo is essentially the equivalent of node->body being built up, then yes this is possible in Drupal. But you yourself identify that this is not actually that useful, more just eye-candy, and hence I'm not surprised that there is no drupal module for it.
So what, in your observation, is being done in the demo?
(I'm going to sound like a Drupal evangalist, which I am, but really I'm just poking the discussion)
In the demo, it is shown how
In the demo, it is shown how to put a title, article, picture etc. on a page. Nothing spectacular, except that it's kinda wysiwyg, kinda drag-n-drop, kinda user-friendly. That's all. A CMS is primarily a system to manage content, establishing relationships, making serious queries etc., and as far as those things are concerned, nothing is shown in the demo. Oh my, I'm starting to realize this is the first time I'm writing so much about a system for which I couldn't care less :-) . OK, end of story, back to Drupal :-)
Ludo
facts to acknowledge
Yes, I feel i am getting closer and closer how a coder/developer's mind works. Code and function has its own logic and its more almighty than the position of user to it, and the user experience is secondary. Coder/devoper has defacto power by creating the very tool they use therefore dictate and determine the user what and how he/she should do. Not the other way around.
That is an age old problem. a metaphor might help us
Imagine If cars interiors, dashboards, chair, position of steering wheels etc. and exteriours designed by the engineers? it would not be a confortable drive and it would not look good i presume...
And surely a good designed car which can not move?... it could only find use as a piece of decoration.
And surely car engineers fascinated by a smart fast car engine so as the car designers fascinated by a good looking car, comfortable to drive.
Surely something missing from either of them how they look the whole product.
Were you making a feature request?
If that demo works totally smoothly in Opera and Safari and IE5 and IE 7 and FF and all, and actually works the way it's supposed to for all users,
Then,
by offering to pay the amount those Swiss folk charge in "Paid Drupal Development" you could probably find someone who would have a go at it for you.
Nothing's impossible, but you'll probably find that many of the developers who are capable of such a build have learnt some of the lessons of the past drag-and-drop failures - Netscape Layers, Frontpage etc. Wrong and evil things happened
Sure, It's always interesting to see what advances other folk are making. Drag & Drop node building is a cool idea. Sorta. To folk who don't actually deal with data management. It'd be good for the Myspace crowd. Google has done it a bit with their personalized homepage. I've seen the codebase it took to do that - have you?
We got collapsible fieldsets and AJAX uploads not too long ago. some folk are working on drag & drop menu ordering at the moment.
Other people think that this is really neat and should be a standard feature.
If you want to try adding the functionality you want to the system yourself, the door is open. Otherwise you pay for it. Otherwise you might find that one or two people are just not that interested in doing it for you right now, because they don't see the benefit or have the interest. Or the skillset. drag & drop event handling in all browsers has been very patchy for a long long while, and has a lot of gotchas. You'll need to approach someone who knows it can be done.
What the user wants is actually sometimes wrong.
Sometimes there are sound practical reasons why what they think they want is inappropriate.
There are a dozen 'what-ifs' or 'buts' that a savvy developer could see in any technology demo. Some of them are probably surmountable...
But in general, user feedback on an open-source project is just that. Something to review, and maybe take some notice of, but not to immediately obey.
If you were a paying client however ... your role might change. The developer would then be able to tell you in detail just why X was a bad idea or why Y would take an extra 2 weeks of budget to make happen.
.dan.
How to troubleshoot Drupal | http://www.coders.co.nz/
.dan. is the New Zealand Drupal Developer working on Government Web Standards
It wasn't actually even a
It wasn't actually even a demo, it was a Video of a demo.
Anyway, be it built by a designer, by a coder, by a carpenter, whatever: 4000 $ for something which allows me to drag the title from the left to the right is not even overpriced, it's xxxxxx [ugly word, censored] :-)
Ludo
you got me wrong dman
you got me wrong dman, i am not making a drag and drop feature request, its not new and as you said there are problems with drag and drops also i would not want, use or pay for it.... its rather to do with in place editing without going deep down into admin.. maybe things can come to a front rather than you go deep into settings...it just for an example to see things differently. no need to make an issue about it and define simplistically a 'making a feature request? and pay' and so on... it seems you make arguments out of your own assumptions not something i wrote (this is common case especially in online communications and its understandable)
with 'this is really neat' as you put it, you point to something I posted http://drupal.org/node/132439 that is something i posted - with a thought might be helpful some Druapallers while they do theme this site might help them. Personally i dont like stripes, i just dont use anything stripped not even wore in pyjamas :) .. 'your interpretation of someone things this should be 'standard feature' is your interpretation, and seems you did not get the humor.
ajax stipped idea background ajax http://www.stripegenerator.com/
not far from te "rockin' color picker!" as some people refered to it- and its already in Drpal standard feature in Default garlan and color module and its fine, cool... but i would never use it or the colour strip ajax background feature or any similar
i should change my Drupal ID to 'verymisunderstood' but its already taken :)
Yeah, OK.
OK. I'm sorry.
I was just reacting to the way your "users vs developers" complaint sounded.
I really had no idea that the post about stripes was also yours. I just saw it recently and though "OMG, that's a utility that should never have been made". Cute as a proof-of concept, possibly, but a horrendous 'utility' to include or recommend.
OK, if it's not the drap & drop that's the point, I'll agree there are a few ways the deeper admin functions could be integrated. The menu 'advanced options' for example could be an embedded form, rather than a link to it. I think those are steps that are, slowly being taken. The examples I gave of the roll-up fieldsets and upload are certainly on that track. Other bits are being developed as optional, add on enhancements under the jstools library.
.dan.
How to troubleshoot Drupal | http://www.coders.co.nz/
.dan. is the New Zealand Drupal Developer working on Government Web Standards
Oh my, I'm starting to
hehe, I agree. This functionality is overkill in the context of simple node content and hence all the module developers are working on other stuff. I'd much rather roll out tinymce to my users rather than that demo
is anyone interested in
is anyone interested in putting this company out of business? make a Jquery module that replicates the drag and drop functionality?
Sometimes something interesting appears on http://litwol.com
For any 'serious' websites
For any 'serious' websites this is overkill. Imagine you designing a community portal and have hundreds of contributors. Each page and article would look different!
So this cms is making things easier for the developers/designers if they're going to use it themselves. But the problem is that everyone considering himself a developer/designer would be too proud to do things this way (stick with line code!).
Another point is - this video could be harmful to all designers/developers who are putting their hard work into making complex websites. Imagine some of the 'bosses' or 'do-it-yourself businessmen' see this... He would probably say something like: 'And we are paying them money to do this???' Well, that cms is probably targeted to such kind of people anyway, so let them think they can do their own websites.
arent you mixing skill of
arent you mixing skill of how to do websites with helper tools and skill replaced by helper too? a person that doesnt know how to make a good site will never get a good site up. a person that knows what he's doing but has helper tools like that will get the site up much faster.
i am not argueing against what you are saying but i think shooting down the use of tools like dreamweaver (or online wysiwyg) for quick n' easy page setup with the argument of 'pride' is unacceptable in my book. if i was the boss i would have more importnat things to take care of than nitpick about my employees. if this tool can get their job done faster then it better for me! because now i can give them more job which will in turn make me more money.
but right now this might be an overkill to some extent, i think we are just not ready for this kind of functionality.
Sometimes something interesting appears on http://litwol.com
Think online magazines.
I think you're being a little harsh there. I'm a hand-coder too, but I detect a little hubris. I don't think this approach will be putting many of us out of a job.
It would actually be good (for some sites) if their designer COULD do more of the things they are used to being able to do in Freehand or whatever.
Magazines
Every page DOES look different and they have designers working full time to make it so. It's unfortunate that every time the print designers come to the web we have to make them pull their head in.
I've had to design interfaces for online magazines. Highly stylized layouts, constructed by editors that do have a fair bit of LAYOUT skills but don't want to have to put up with the restrictions any available CMS or HTML editor forces on them.
So maybe not for 'user-contributed' content, I don't do community messageboards. But most of what I've been using Drupal for is setting up corporate sites, with a handful of duty editors who just want to maintain the thing AND make it look like the photoshop mock-ups.
There is probably a place for a little more drag & drop, even if it was only snapping between 'align:left' and 'align:right' under the hood.
.dan.
How to troubleshoot Drupal | http://www.coders.co.nz/
.dan. is the New Zealand Drupal Developer working on Government Web Standards
I know what you mean, but I
I know what you mean, but I am looking at this from my personal perspective. The website I am currently working on is all about news articles, and magazines are something else. I was referring to news articles only. They should have consistent look throughout a website.
OK, maybe I was little harsh, but the bosses I am dealing with are far from the example posted 2 posts up (I wish I had a boss who is more interested in doing the business properly, rather than just bossing the employees).