Drupal is bloatware (disappointed with first experience)
I'm a little disappointed with my first experience with Drupal. I'm building a website for my fiance and it needs to have a blog, message board, and articles among the static pages. In an attempt to avoid having to program a custom CMS myself I thought Drupal would be the one stop shop for the site. The installation was easy, however, I wanted it setup in a way that a single Drupal install could serve multiple sites should I choose to use it again and avoid duplicating files. While this worked out in the end, it was a little confusing to setup because I had to use the command line(creating a symbolic link).
Once it was all setup I was a little overwhelmed with the amount of configurable options. It was almost too many. If I wanted to build a site that needed to serve 20 different types of content/pages, and have 10 different user types with different access types, then the plethora of options might make sense. My biggest gripe was that no decent wysiwyg editor was built into the system. The biggest feature I needed from the wysiwyg is the ability to upload an image from the desktop, and display it in-line with the text. I first tried to install TinyMCE, and after 8 or more hours later of trying to get an image to upload I gave up. Yeah, it has the ability to insert images, but it needs to be done via a URL path, which requires all the image modules to be installed to upload and manage images separately, which is not an option. I then tried the HTMLArea/Xinha option. While this ended up working(two hours later), it did require installing a freaking ton of files on my server, then configuring the installation. The next step was limiting the Xinha wysiwyg editor to only the textarea fields in which an administrator needs (blog, article, page etc). I don't need a wysiwyg editor available to normal users or on my log message box (by the way, is there a way to simple disable this?) The whole configuration to this doesn't make sense, and simply didn't work. having to type in node/*/blog.body or whatever the path is a little ridiculous.
Last night I did a One-Click install of Wordpress on my server (Dreamhost rocks) just to see what it could do. It has been more than a year since I've used Wordpress so I wasn't familiar with its options. It took me literally 10 minutes (most of this was waiting for the Dreamhost install bot) to setup Wordpress, create content pages, AND attach an image to a blog post. So I've wasted about two months of total time(a hour here and there over that period) trying to do something Wordpress did in 10 minutes... and without configuring a damn thing. Wordpress even took care of the mod rewrites of the URL with me simple clicking a radio button of what format I wanted it in. I don't have to look at an htaccess file. Now I just need to install PunBB and skin it, and Wordpress, and the site is done.
So what did I learn? Drupal is too bloated for its own good. There are too many options, and too many things to configure unless I'm wanting to serve 20+ different types of content, with 10+ different user/access types.
Dare I say.... Drupal is to Microsoft as Wordpress is to Apple. I have to jump through hoops with Drupal, but Wordpress simply works.
** as a side note, I hope I don't have to edit this post, because I don't see an edit option in the forums anywhere, at least not for the first post.
Best of Luck
Drupal is not perfect, but I would not call it bloatware. It has a lot of power, but there is a lot to learn, too. Wordpress excels at some things that Drupal does not and the converse is also true. It sounds like you found the right tool for the job. I wish you success.
Hey. I kind of agree to what
Hey.
I kind of agree to what you're saying. I started my project with joomla, cause everyone told me about it. Well quite frankly Joomla has got no decent features for my website. So i went on to drupal. It has many features and so far and after some time setting everything up. But its a bit slow and I kinda ran out of creativity so i thought about trying Wordpress. I did and I liked it a lot. The only problem is that Wordpress is still too much a Blog CMS and well therefore not a "real" cms like I need it. For example I want a proper user profile. but the backend admin-themed wordpress option quite frnakly is not what i was looking for. But I suppose in a year or soe. Wordpress will be a very serious competition for drupal!
size?
Drupal is actually a few kilobytes smaller than Wordpress, if you want to base things on size.. what does that say about bloat? :)
--
John Forsythe
Need reliable Drupal hosting?
More like Apples to Oranges
Wordpress has much more narrow goals I think.
I really needed a CMS for my needs and I've been happy with Drupal. Definitely requires up-front work and a learning curve, but so far I'm happy with the results.
Drupal has blog features and modules, but from what I've seen most Drupal sites aren't primarily blog sites.
I would find your post more interesting if you didn't just identify your own narrow goal and then announce that because Drupal didn't meet it it is therefore "bloatware".
- Peter
I could very well use Drupal
I could very well use Drupal for something in the future, who knows. For this project it was overkill, though I was hoping it would suffice. I think there are a lot of things that need improved and could be learned from other systems. For instance Wordpress' ability to upload an image and insert it into a post by default, and without any configuration. That seems like a no brainer to me. Such a huge and robust system and developer community, but yet I still see tons inquiries in the forums about how to achieve this. The attachment option is there, but it hasn't been taken far enough.
It kind of feels like Linux to me in a way. Tons of programmers programming things and throwing it into the mix, but yet no one is stepping back and looking at the UI or process.
lol
You beat me too it! But I find this statement so sweeping and unfair, I can see we're not easily going to see eye to eye ;)
Mark
flet.org
Tons of programmers
Tons of programmers programming things and throwing it into the mix, but yet no one is stepping back and looking at the UI or process.
Harsh, but true.
not really
UI Process and discussions occur regularly and result in changes for each release. If this wasn't true then how could the /admin interface options in Drupal 5 changed? There are changes being discussed for Drupal 6 now. The addition of JQuery makes UI improvements even more interesting as long as it falls back gracefully.
If you don't see this, it's because you're not involved. If you're not involved, then why not get involved?
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
If you don't see this, it's
If you don't see this, it's because you're not involved. If you're not involved, then why not get involved?
Because you seem aggressive and defensive, even when responding to very slight criticism.
---
That's ridiculous. First off steven isn't the ONLY person involved in Drupal, secondly, if you let the alleged actions of others dictate your level of involvement, then you only have yourself to blame for shortcomings. Some individuals could use some thicker skin in the community IMHO.
wow
I even provided a link to help you get involved. Try and help some people and just get accused of all sorts of things. It's amazing what happens when you try to help people.
Also, I wasn't responding to criticism, I was responding to something that wasn't true. Developers consider UI implications as part of an entire range of choices. This type of interaction with Drupal core is important in determining what goes in and what doesn't. This includes the UI for developers, site administrators and end users.
Drupal is capable of a lot of different types of sites. That flexibility makes UI design complex. It evolves every version. Your comment indicated that you have not been very involved in the community and as such supported a comment that wasn't true. I provided an explanation and challenge for you to get involved.
Of course, if it's just easier for you to attack me then get involved, then that's something that's good to know.
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
Why are you unable to accept
Why are you unable to accept criticism?
Wordpress says of their software: "WordPress is a state-of-the-art semantic personal publishing platform with a focus on aesthetics, web standards, and usability. ... More simply, WordPress is what you use when you want to work with your software, not fight it."
Drupal's philosophy "We throw everything in without a thought for the overall UI, and never step back and look the the overall experience. And if you don't like it, we will tell you you are wrong, that your comments don't matter, and that you should sort it out yourself."
Which philosophy do you find more appealing?
---
Nice of you to quote wordpress word for word, and then improvise for Drupal Philosophy.
Drupal's Philosphies can be found in these pages. http://drupal.org/History-mission-and-community
The UI, especially on the admin side, underwent major changes. Not that you should be expected to know that since according to your profile you have only been here for 5 weeks. I implore you to install 4.7.x and compare it to 5.x. Or find a copy of 4.6 and compare the direction that Drupal is going. Watch Dries' videocast of the State of Drupal to understand where Drupal is heading as well.
Of course, if wordpress does what needs to be done for any one specific user or application, then by all means, use it...
sigh
You are mis-quoting the thread conversation and saying things that were not in fact said. You are now engaging in direct personal attacks.
Your misquote and out right distortion of the of the responses you have gotten is annoying. If Drupal is not for you, then Drupal is not for you. There are tools that may be more focused that help you accomplish what you want.
However, your continued insistence in repeating a blatant falsehood is annoying.
That statement is untrue. Just because you repeat it, doesn't make it more true, just more annoying. If you want to get involved, follow the link I provided earlier on how. If you don't find Drupal to your liking, don't use it. Please don't continue attacking me with mis-statements.
To save you the mouse clicks, here's Drupal's mission
It's a bit broader in it's goal then is a personal publishing platform.
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
Steven, hi there!
I just dropped into this thread to take a look around and had to chuckle a bit. I feel like we're old friends now. :-)
I've grown a bit since our last encounters but it's interesting to me how these same issues keep cropping up on the Drupal site. You must be getting pretty tired of answering the same threads over and over again. I have admiration for your patience.
As a not-so-new newbie, I'm finally reaching the stage of Drupal competence that I can start to appreciate its finer points. But the Drupal community sure could cut down on these kinds of posts from newbies if the core developers would just focus on this small list of new features, ideally in Drupal 6:
1) An integrated, mini wysiwyg editor with image upload and inline placement. (whether simple or complex)
2) A blog install profile, with key modules turned on, a basic taxonomy, and popular settings preregistered.
3) A "simple" and "advanced" admin interface option, that hides some complexity from new users.
4) A couple of really slick, Joomla style templates with good graphics, and an expanded color picker and perhaps a form for setting some of the major layout options. (Garland is leading the way, but frankly, it's not appropriate for a lot of commercial sites)
Yeah, I know what you're going to say: That I should just go do it if I think it's such a great idea. Unfortunately, I can't because I've just learned Drupal. Php is a another hurdle altogether, as is the case for a ton of Drupal newbies. (although I might give the template option a try, seriously)
And yes, many of the heavyweight developers don't need or appreciate the wysiwyg editor and blog profile. BUT, if you guys who are qualified to make these changes in a quality manner, would just do it, then you'd get a small army of newbies off your back, and you wouldn't have to, so patiently, answer these same objections over and over again. Affecting the changes seems like the far easier option to me.
BTW, kudos for all your hard work, and I wish you well.
WHOA!! Did I just have a hallucination?
Did I really see an "edit" link at the bottom of my last post??
Was I really able to edit my last thread? What's going on?? Pigs are flying!! Look out! :-)
---
you are able to edit your comment so long as noone responds directly to your comment. Always been that way.
Wow, that's very odd
It funny that I've been posting here for awhile and never noticed that. :-0
How long has that been the case??
It just goes to show that sometimes, the things right under your nose are the hardest to notice....
---
dates back to at least Drupal 4.6 when i came onboard.
Ah hah, I will point out ... :)
That we don't have designated core developers. We have core contributors who can and have been anyone. While the chances of a full wysiwyg getting into core is slim to non-existent a better idea that was proposed was hooks that would allow wysiwyg to more effectively leverage integration or potentially a minimalist type editor, but no one's found/written a really elegant solution that fills that role yet. Of course, that does mean that some core contributor needs to actually work on submitting some patches. As I don't recall seeing any such activity in the issue tracker I'm not holding my breathe. It's not that it wouldn't be a good idea, it's that someone who is interested in it needs to work on it. That's just the reality of Open Source, someone has to volunteer to do it or volunteer to pay for it :D.
We have some install profiles in project you can download now. Install profiles are new and people are still feeling there way around them to see what improvements are needed for Drupal 6. We'll see how that evolves. I know some are excited about them now and I think we will have great strides with them but I don't expect to see dozens of them until closer to Drupal 7. The community knowledge is still in the gearing up phase of learning what works and what doesn't. I could be wrong on that time frame though. We have some folks working on making install profiles popular and teaching others but that is a process that just takes time, so it will seem to move glacially, then in the blink of an eye, it'll be everywhere.
We're getting more themes. The theme engine needs more work but that's something that it is actively getting. Getting the elegant balance between feature rich and 'easy' to leverage is an iterative process with each version of Drupal getting better as understanding of the idea goes through implementation and feedback. The real issue with themes is that a really killer theme needs to be built around the content. Generic themes are hard to design for a toolkit style CMS that has evolved into a toolset to accomplish a wide array of solutions. Garland also makes extensive use of negative margins which for non themers are rather arcane. You'll notice I cheat and use Yahoo GRID CSS on my site.
I will mention that I don't actually know php myself. :) If I need to I can fake some stuff, but so far for my needs I've been able to avoid actually having to learn it to much. This issue does repeat itself but part of the repetition is also educating people who aren't familiar with Open Source or the Drupal community. Each time we go through it, more people learn, we get a few more people and some others decide not to stick around. In each cycle we get more people staying then leaving. As to fancy forms for layout options, I've seen demo's of them. They are in general not good cross browser and in some cases more hooks need to be designed into core so they will work more effectively so are difficult to achieve. The simplest appearant visual type change can sometimes take very complicated programming to actually achieve to remain elegant and accomplish the objective properly. Some of the current proposed changes would actually make the color picker more accessible to more layers of a given theme so there's one item off your list right there.
The learning curve for Drupal never actually stops. There is to much to learn in one or two go arounds. Even the long time devs learn neat, new ways to do things all the time. Watching people go through this learning cycle themselves is also something I do. Those that end up getting it generally really get it in the end. Perhaps I should blog some of the more common learning cycles I've seen.
I don't view the newbies as being on my back to be honest. I've spent years here helping others, getting feedback and trying to build the support infrastructure that people give back to the community and others. Improving things where I could and watching the types of questions change and grow more sophisticated over time as more information was readily available and caused a change in the types and nature of the questions.
There has been a lot of change in the last several years. Big changes from 4.3. Lots of the stuff going into Drupal 6 right now is invisible unless you code. But it's important stuff that people benefit from though it is hard to quantify and describe to those who don't yet have the concepts. The change also occurs over time. As you follow the forums and the dev list you will see the cycle for change in Drupal is actually very long. Lay the groundwork, get the base solid, implement change. Sometimes that takes 1-3 versions because people can only code so fast and test and review the patches so fast.
Even though people contribute code back, for the most part people contributing to core are not doing so on company time. They are doing it on their own. Which makes what is accomplished even more astounding.
In any case, good that you are still having fun.
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
Drupal is Bloated?
yet you want a WYSIWYG editor to be included?
What's content
Drupal is a content management system, and in its bloated state out of the box you have to put a tag before and a tag after if you want to put a text in bold, and there's no way to upload an image to a post and show it inline with the text.
Content is text and images for the most part, ya know :) Drupal doesn't make it easy to add content.
With a little perspective, it almost seems like a joke that Drupal 5 still can't do that (without contributed modules).
With perspective. Perspective is something that's difficult to have when you've been married to Drupal for a while.
What I am saying here applies to myself.
Caroline
A coder's guide to file download in Drupal
Who am I | Where are we
11 heavens
Of course. There is a "Log
Of course. There is a "Log Message" option on each publishing page (I think by default?). How many users prefer to add a log message rather than being able to bold some text or insert an image out of the box?
Log Message for instance seems like an absurdly low level thing to be given such priority on the post/editing forms. To me that is something that you should have to configure to turn on, not take up half the page by default.
Sorry to hear about your
Sorry to hear about your experience with Drupal. In the past I have felt the same way whenever I try to set up a Wordpress site. It sounds like Wordpress is more tailored to your needs though. Drupal is designed to be the base for larger applications, which is why it doesn't include bloatware like a WYSISWG editor. Although the FCKeditor module sounds like it would have done what you are looking for. It handles uploading of files right in the editor (you have to change one word in the code though, which is laid out in the readme). The normal users also get a base version on a default install or you can easily disable the editor for any user class altogether.
Delivering different content
tilzinger
I immediately knew where you were going with this. I too agree that there are too many configurable options. It was initially difficult for me to set up drupal to have a site running. It's definitely not as easy to install and go as Wordpress.
But I do disagree with this:
Mainly because I think Apple's are a load of platinum plated crap, but I've been using Wordpress since 0.8 and Drupal for a 4-5 months now. I'm not sure what your experience is with PHP, but you certainly need to know it more with Wordpress. I have a design company (basically me and another guy doing freelance work), and we set people up on a couple different applications depending on their needs. I've been bouncing around a couple different fully loaded PHP CMS's for a while. And Drupal feels like a nice fully functional CMS able to manage multiple clients with different templates allowing for a better delivery for client specific applications.
I love Wordpress for all single or multiple user delivery of specific content for a single medium. There are pros and cons to both pieces of software, but I'm not going to compare and contrast. Drupal can handle all the things you want out of the box. However, Wordpress is set up to handle blogging and 'Pages' easily. That's what the application is mainly used for. Going with Wordpress will leave you with a problem when it comes to a message board. It doesn't have this function built in nor are there any plug-ins worth downloading for it. Trust me, I've looked. The best your going to get is bbPress (forum) integrated into workpress DB.
Drupal - medium difficulty to manage with everything easily accessible in one place. Learning curve is high.
Wordpress -easy to manage, PHP knowledge is almost a necessity, no integrated message board. Learning curve is low.
I can write a comparison between the two if people would like one. But this is just my two cents.
-rob
More on apples and oranges
If you must use an operating system analogy, I would liken Drupal more to Linux. The number of potential uses for it are many, but the trade-off is that it might require a bit more learning to be able to put together the system you want. Now that I'm beginning to understand Drupal, the stuff I've had to learn is paying off Big Time.
Because of this, I've found Drupal to be the opposite of bloatware. It can be pared down to the absolute minimum if you require.
Having said all that, someone's choice of CMS isn't a religious issue for me :) I wish you every success with Wordpress, which seems to be another beautifully crafted system.
Mark
flet.org
by design
Yes, that's on purpose and why there is a preview button. You will also find you cannot edit any comments that have replies to them as well. That's so you can't change your post once someone replies so you don't lose the context.
If Drupal is to powerful and flexible for your needs, then don't use it. That's sort of the point of different CMS packages. They have different originating factors and audiences. I do think you are throwing around the word 'bloated' a little to easily to have a full grasp of what you are saying.
Experience has shown that the vast majority of people contributing to Drupal development simply do not want or need a default wysiwyg editor in core. That too is the point of the contributed modules. You can select and choose the right one for your sites audience and if the right one doesn't exist, you can make it exist yourself.
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
I'll edit my comment if i want
Bottom right of my first comments still allows me to edit my comment, but I won't.
and now you can't
edit this comment. Once someone replies to a comment, you can't edit it. To edit a forum post you would need Edit Nodes rights. This is how the default permissions setup works.
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
tilzinger makes some good
tilzinger makes some good points, and I hope the drupal development team can appreciate his call for simplicity, without getting defensive.
as wordpress has shown, installation and configuration CAN be simple. it's ok to say "but drupal is more complicated and powerful" (which is true), but I don't think this should be an excuse to not improve drupals usability.
open source projects aren't always easy to use, partly because who create them are technically-minded. i would hope that outside views (perhaps from usability experts) can make some impact on the next versions of drupal.
I certainly would not call
I certainly would not call drupal "bloated". I would call it "flexible".
The best analogy to drupal I have seen is this: Drupal is a little more technically challenging at first due to all the OPTIONS.
"Other CMS's are like Duplo blocks, where you can only build what they tell you you can, drupal is like a big box of Lego where it takes more work but you can build almost anything".
Or something like that.
Now, is drupal a bit of a learning curve ? Yes. Can I use drupal to make a standard blog site ? Yes. and a million other things. Not to mention, everyone at the drupal.org site is Very helpful. Unfortunately not something all that common all the time these days...
If you are happy with your install of wordpress, then thats good....for you, all the options may not be what you personally need.
Sean
I don't think is fair calling Drupal "bloatware"
Saying is not the right tool for your job would be enough.
There are different tools and needs out there and it's your job to find the right mix.
Wordpress for simple blogs is a good choice, I also like Wordpress and it has a nice community too.
Drupal is not just a CMS, it's a framework for building many types of sites, including quite complex ones, and obviously there's a big learning curve there.
For those looking for power and flexibility, and of course having the required knowledge and time to hack, Drupal is a great option. If you need a one click install and forget solution, and there's nothing bad about that, then you'll need to look somewhere else.
I find the Microsoft, Apple and Linux comments a little out of place. Perhaps you're not a Linux user or developer, nothing bad about that either, and that's why you're a little confused.
Cheers!
Alexis Bellido
Ventanazul: web development and Internet business consulting shouldn't be boring
---
First time i've ever seen a program under 3MB be called bloatware....
we are sorry
that you feel drupal isnt the right tool for the job. thanks for your input and we hope that in due time you will try drupal again to see if it fits your (new?) requested functionality.
--
groets
bert boerland
Amazed
I'm always amazed to see how people complain about Open Source software, ie. free time offered by very skilled people. It's not perfect, but it's free... If you buy something which doesn't fit your needs, complain... If you don't know how to use a free Open Source piece of software, do your homework, and try to contribute to make it like you think it could/should be.
How do you hope to improve
How do you hope to improve anything in open source software without complaining or pointing out the flaws?
I find it very sad that people here are unwilling to even accept simple criticism that WYSIWYG in core would be very useful for lot of people.
Maybe so many of these complaints will finally inspire someone to code it in the core ...
Working on it.
By putting work into fixing the perceived flaws. Work can come in the form of code, testing of existing patches, developing specifications and/or User Interaction workflows, graphics work, documentation writing, sponsorship via dollars, etc. Here's the secret: Adding WYSIWYG to Drupal core is not a new idea that core developers are unaware of, and need to have pointed out to them. Rather, there are fundamental concerns about the flaws in all existing WYSIWYG editors and the serious problems (some security-related) that they bring along with them. Those questions have yet to be answered in a fashion that is acceptable for the majority of Drupal sites -- not just turnkey blogs.
The thread started with the claim that Drupal is bloatware, and that that is unacceptable. Somehow, it's morphed into a discussion about adding tinyMCE -- a piece of software that would double the size of Drupal to the core so that people don't have to download it separately. TinyMCE is available as a configurable plugin module. If you're building a site for clients, you can install it and they will not see any difference between 'core TinyMCE' versus 'contrib TinyMCE.' It just is.
If you want to start a conversation about "What specific concerns are keeping a WYSIWYG solution out of core?" perhaps that would be a better approach. Simply cajoling developers, wagging a finger and suggesting they're just out of touch, is not an approach likely to gain interest outside the circle of people who want to yell about things for fun.
That's not criticism, it's an opinion. The dominant opinion in the developer community (and the consulting community) is that WYSIWYG in core would also be not useful for a lot of people, and the amount of bloat/code maintenance/compatability issues that it would add raises serious questions about whether it's worthwhile. This is the point of contention for the majority of developers: how to best resolve the concerns with the need for closer integration.
If you are willing to brainstorm about the specifics, and read/learn about some of the existing concerns that have kept TinyMCE and similar modules out of Drupal core, then that is awesome! Let's all talk! But a chorus of people saying, "Add this!" is not necessarily going to make it happen -- it's not necessarily going to make ANYTHING happen. That's just life.
Re-read what I said. I believe that there is a fundamental flaw in your understanding of how open source projects operate. :-)
--
Lullabot! | Eaton's blog | VotingAPI discussion
A solution that satisfies everyone
wysiwyg doesn't need to be in core. It just needs to be a reliable module that can be dropped in just like most other modules. Tincymce is such a pain to install: that's the real issue.
NOT having wysiwyg in core will satisfy the hard core drupalers. HAVING an easy to install module will satisfy everyone else, and can be included in future install profiles. Mission accomplished!
Now we just need to choose a good wysiwyg editor and bombproof it. :-)
Widgeditor sure seems promising. Match it up with IMCE and that is a very useful solution.
Agreed.
Yeah, I'd agree on that count. I think some of the points that have been hit on in this thread and others (the need for an easy-to-specify "This field should/should not be WYSIWYG" flag for textareas, the need to expose CSS information from the theme, etc) will go a long way. In addition, the need to find an editor that's GPL'd and relatively lightweight -- so as not to conflict with Drupal's GPL license or bloat the initial module download -- would help a lot too.
Finally, Providing a sensible 'default' configuration for it. It's a tricky thing, but perhaps by keeping sensible goals in mind and remaining aware of the limitations we CAN make it happen...
--
Lullabot! | Eaton's blog | VotingAPI discussion
Widgeditor looks good
It uses the jquery library (as of version .3) And is committed to creating html that is clean and easy to integrate into a stylized website. I was also pleasantly surprised to find that it handles copy and paste from Word quite well.
I don't like their clunky way of displaying paragraphs or the location of the header tag list, but those are minor issues, really. It does need integration with a IMCE type image handler though. Theirs is too primitive.
Maybe bloatware was a little
Maybe bloatware was a little harsh. It just felt like a mental overload seeing all the options available.
Yes it is a huge system with tons of options and capabilities, however, there are a lot of things that could be simplified and made easier. This just seems to be the nature of open source projects, especially when one gets to the scale of Drupal; small, but important, details go overlooked.
For instance I had trouble getting the Xinha editor to appear only on certain textareas, specifically only when logged in as an administrator. I don't need, or want, normal users to be able to send me formatted HTML in a contact form. It would be nice to see these wysiwyg editors with the option of enabling or disabling it based on user types.
Another option would be to list all the node types available that it can be enabled on and simply check the node type instead of typing node/*/blog.body or whatever it is. I shouldn't have to figure out these paths unless I want to be that specific. Drupal is smart enough to do that itself.
Another feature I previously mentioned was expanding the capabilities of the file attachment to add an image, then put it inline with the body text.
If everyone wants a wysiwyg editor to be an add-on, at least include one in the initial package (if there isn't already) and when the administrator surfs to a page where an editor can be used, show a dialog/notification message above the textarea asking something like "Would you like to enable a WYSIWYG editor on all text areas? Click Yes/No. To further configure this option go here". Take some of the admin features out of the admin area and into context.
My examples are limited to a couple things I know, but I found them incredibly frustrating. The people who have made Drupal have done an incredible job. Bloatware probably was harsh, but it is definitely intimidating to a first time user.
The difficulty...
...is revealed by this comment.
This is definitely a principle that can be useful -- chunking options together into useful conceptual categories, and selectively presenting appropriate options for the admin's current task, is important. It's really, really important to remember though that each addition ('Just include an editor in the download, and give them an option to turn it on or off...') is how the number of configuration options becomes bloated. In addition, even a relatively slim WYSIWYG editor would boost the size of the Drupal core download by a good 50-60%.
There are strong cases to be made for WYSIWYG editors, media asset management tools, etc being part of a pre-built copy of Drupal. For the sake of those who don't need them, though (who are as likely to be overloaded wading through options as you are), I think the future lies in configurable 'profiles', like the ones that you can see beginning to appear in the Drupal downloads section.
--
Lullabot! | Eaton's blog | VotingAPI discussion
Drupal is so much more...
As someone who recently switched from Wordpress, I can see your point about up and running in "10 minutes." I like that about Wordpress. But I switched to Drupal because my site was at the point (nearly 400 posts) where it needed a real CMS to manage it, as well as grow it. And Drupal's taxonomy rocks.
As a newbie, Drupal's learning curve is high. It took me about six months to make the switch. That not only included learning Drupal, reading every interesting post in the forums, procrastinating, designing specific themes for separate sections, manually going through my old posts three times to make sure I had every post I wanted to migrate and placed exactly where I wanted it in terms of section and taxonomy, but it included time off to install and learn Linux :)
I don't regret it. My site is awesome - far superior to my previous Wordpress site, which I had spend several months on, tweaking it to perfection in the beginning as well.
Now, it takes just a few hours (at most) to setup the basics of a site with no content to migrate - except for designing a custom theme (for me anyway - I'm a "perfectionist" obsessed with detail). I still think about how easier it is with Wordpress and am tempted as I plan and work on additional sites. But the ability to customize and have room for growth (scalability) and expansion (theme-ability plus taxonomy) -- and build virtually any kind of site -- is definitely worth the costs of time and extensive learning required, IMO. (Besides, learning can be so much fun. :) So when I think about the future of each site, I am compelled to use Drupal from the start, as migrating is a royal pain and very time-consuming.
There is nothing wrong with Wordpress. As a blogging tool, it definitely rocks. But Drupal is so much more than that.
Good luck with your new site. I hope it is successful for you.
Carey
Drupal's not for you, so...
Not to be argumentative but...
You offered:
Drupal is to Microsoft as Wordpress is to Apple.
I think a more accurate analogy would be:
Drupal is to Iron Chef as Wordpress is to an Easy-Bake Oven.
You can bake your just-add-water cake in a professional kitchen, but it's going to take more time and it'll probably turn out better too. You can also create a 5 course dinner with an Easy-Bake but it won't be easy, and we would all question the quality.
I think that a criticism of how the Is Drupal right for you? page or some other introductory section of Drupal could better address some of your issues, may be appropriate in your case. That at least can be debated. But to offer a sweeping indictment of Drupal based on your poor evaluation methods and minimal experiences seems a bit unreasonable.
You had expectations that weren't met by Drupal, fine. How did you come to have those expectations? Drupal users can fix places where the information could be clearer.
LoL, I stopped reading when
LoL, I stopped reading when in the first line he said
"I'm building a website for my fiance"
---
Blame it all on McDonalds and other fast food vendors, who created the generation of "Give me a #3, no pickle, no mustard, extra ketchup, add cheese! and give it to me NOW!"
Drupal needs a drive-thru! : )
And this discredits my
And this discredits my opinion?
Nice personal site by the way...
Yes it is a huge system with
But the beauty of course, is that you can contribute to the project and deal with those things you see as small but important details.
Odd
I find it odd that you discredit Drupal for not having a good UI to manage 20 types of contents and 10 types of user types, and then you continue to state that Wordpress solved all your problems in ten minutes. As far as I know, Wordpress doesn't even offer you the option to add or define content types, or to add a type of user and define a roll. Why did you settle for Wordpress on that? On top of that, you're pretty much stuck with the wysiwyg Wordpress offers you, while Drupal leaves you the choice between at least 3 very good wysywygs.
Also, you're comparing installing Drupal yourself to a One-Click Wordpress installation. If you want a One-Click Drupal installation, check out Bryght.com.
As a small remark: if you want to be able to upload images within TinyMCE, all you need to do is install the IMCE module.
he was trying to say that
he was trying to say that drupal DOES make sense for multiple content types and user roles.
see:
He obviously wanted something much simplier, despite the rant about what "should" be added to Drupal.
I read these "wysiwyg" and
I read these "wysiwyg" and "bloated" kind of comments frequently, that I want to react too :
1. Adding a standard wysiwyg editor = makign drupal more bloated.
2. Drupal is not at all bloated, it contains the basic material to get started. For every problem there is an easy solution. True, there is a learning curve, but once you start to understand how Drupal works, you recognize how fantastic it is built!
I believe that there is a
Translation:
This discussion shows how open source projects too often operate for the developers, by the developers, and of the developers. How will that philosophy advance Drupal?
If Drupal is going to be a long-term success, Drupal can't just be about developers. Drupal has to be for everyone.
Right?
tilzinger criticisms are spot on, even if his word use wasn't precisely correct (and it's shameful how much of the replies went into defensiveness or debating his word use instead of addressing the problems). Drupal is indeed difficult and time consuming to set up for anything other than very simple uses.
Part of the problem may be positioning. Drupal is fact not a direct alternative to WordPress or Joomla!. Drupal is a platform or framework with which you can build alternatives, albeit with considerable effort.
Realizing this, would it make sense to have pre-built Drupal appliances? A blog appliance, a club appliance, a neighborhood associaton appliance, a forum appliance, a news site appliance, etc. These appliances would have 90% of the work done for you; all you do is the last 10% of configuration for your specific needs?
install profiles
Those appliances are exactly what the installation profiles are for.. give it a few months and they will be exactly what you propose: a blog profile, a neighbourhood association and a news site..
--
I work for Ontwerpwerk
"Drupal is to Microsoft?" Here's a better analogy...
Sure Drupal takes a little extra work... but the power it gives you once you've groked it is like getting yourself a college diploma: it takes more work than just a high school diploma, but opens up a world of possibilities.
Try building a community-oriented website from scratch and you'll see just how amazing Drupal is. Wordpress's goals are different from Drupal's and each serves its purpose extremely well. If all I ever wanted was a blog, Wordpress makes that very easy. Personally, now that I've conquered Drupal I'm uncomfortable using anything like Wordpress because I feel like I'm limiting myself.
Besides, I'd rather jump through a couple hoops now than later, when I feel constrained by Wordpress and want to move all my content over to Drupal. ;-)
Just cannot be critical
I don't know why criticism is accepted; yeah I love Drupal too; I can foresee how my website would look with the power that it has.
It is overwhelming at first glance, but I kept on reading and understanding, but just that for now. Maybe that is one of the drwbacks of Drupal, the long learning curve it takes to understand the system and make it behave the way you want it to.
I can share the pain of the initial post, many wanting to adopt a CMS are probably content focused, which is why a text editor is very important.
Maybe Drupal wasn't meant for content writers, marketers, newbies with okey dokey tech knowledge. It seems more of a developers friend.
Topic is getting messy, I
Topic is getting messy,
I agree that critism is always difficult. People are mostly defending at first before they might be available for suggestions.
I agree that Drupal is more developer minded but also must admit that this is slowly changing (keepin developer but enhancing designer approach).
I agree that Drupal is having many options which can drive you crazy at first. Once you work with it, it is easy as is the case with all difficult things at first.
I understand that the topic starter got dissapointed by using Drupal since he was looking for something else, something easy and not something full of options.
Overal I do think some lessons can be learned from this.
1) Drupal is infact improving it UI and looks at a fast pace. It will take time to compete with other systems on that point. Tell this and do not argue because it is just as it is and I think it is possitive.
2) Drupal was and is to some extend having the name to be difficult to customize and learn. Huge step have been taken to lower the learning curve but it might be still to steep for alot of users. Just communicate this because it will increase the "post-purchase experience".
3) Drupal is programmed with the developer in mind. Be proud of it because it is in my opinion the bases for successful products. Moreover, never forget that this developer in mind idea has made Drupal successful!
MY 2 cents as being a
MY 2 cents as being a designer that recently moved from Joomla(bleh!) and Wordpress(meh..) is that my first time experience has been completely contrary to yours.
I am not a developer and spend most of my time in design applications and I still found Drupal to be excedenly easy to use as long as I take the time to read every tip and summary available, Taxonomy was a little confusing at first and the themes community needs a booster shot but I had my first very simple blog site like you state along with being able to post inline pictures setup in less then 30 minutes on Dreamhost over a 56k modem, I had taken the time to browse modules and select the needed ones before I even started which probably saved me from the image posting hell you went through and I'm not sure why the core package doesn't come with Image Assist but there is probably some complex reason.. Since my first site I have built 5 sites in 4 weeks and have never been happier with a publishing tool and I prefer to use Drupal now for even the smallest of sites.
I can see how the UI would be overwhelming if you have little or no professional experience building websites but there really isn't anything there that is mystery meat or misleading as long as you sift through it carefully your fist time, that being said the point of a CMS to me is to let those without technical expertise to publish content so it would be nice to see a little more time dedicated to making Drupal more eye friendly.
It would be great to see an out of the box simplified Admin UI that could be relied upon as allot of the Drupal themes available are kind of week and tend to explode when the admin options are rendered. I don't want anything complex like Joomla has but just a solid, cleanly styled GUI that doesn't break and presents all the simple required or frequently used options up front and hides the complex ones. I know its basically like that now but like it seems like if your not using the garland theme the backend is usually fuged up and it would be nice to have an admin UI you could let your users at that would prevent the kind of issues tilzinger is talking about here that was 100% guaranteed to not break and look like rear.
Is there a current project that addresses the issues brought up tilzinger, IE an Admin UI for Drupal and perhaps an install profile(?) for a basic blog, wysiwyg and image posting? Seems like the biggest assumtion made by people not familiar with Drupal is that it is overly complex, I know thats what kept me using Joomla for some time :(
what waste
All this hot air wasted replying to someone who just wants to complain...
When a real question from someone who wants to use drupal goes unanswered :(
http://drupal.org/node/155885