Dear Drupal community,
I turn to you as a rather desperate fan. My company just had a website built and we insisted it be built on Drupal after doing a lot of research into which platform would be best for us. After one year and over 30,000 euro, we have a website that was so poorly built that a few Drupal companies have said the only way to fix it would be to build it from scratch.
GreenGraffiti® is a small start-up that is providing the only form of sustainable outdoor advertising. We use only water, a template and a powerwasher to literally clean a message out of the dirt. We also give back to our local community and have even set up a water foundation called GreenAdsBlue and through this have provided water to over 800 people in developing countries.
What we do is not legal nor is it illegal putting us in legal grey zone but doing well by taking the moral highground. We have been challenging the established and very powerful outdoor media industry and getting a lot of attention not only for what we are doing but also or the way we run our business - Profits with Principles. But we are a small company and the 30k investment in our most important tool our website was already almost too much of a cost to bare but we believe so we just went for it.
So we kneal before the gurus of Drupal a like minded group with the hope that someone, some group out there would help us with this disaster we have been left with.
We do not have much to offer, except praise- telling the world about the white knight that came along and rescued us from falling over the black cliff of "good guys who have been totally screwed" lots o good Dutch Beer, cheese, spirits and any other tokens of our deepest appreciation that may come to your mind to help keep you going in the face of what we have been told is some pretty scary code!
We are not completely broke but every penny we now have to spend will cost us lost business, leave us with less to contribute to others and just make us bow our heads deeper in shame before our angle investors who trusted we would spend this growth capital wisely instead of being suckered into working with a company that quite honestly just completely ripped us off in oh so many ways.
All advice, shoulders to cry on, words of wisdom or just downright pity are welcome. We will do whatever we can to pay you back in some way, someday.
Thank you for reading our plea as pathetic as it may be. Desperation demands that we humble ourselves and what better community to be humble before.
Warm Regards,
Jim Bowes Founder and head Cheerleader
By GreenBowes on
Comments
30,000 euro ???? What type of
30,000 euro ???? What type of site do you have ??? url ?
M.
Freelancer Senior Drupal Developer -- http://www.ziobuddalabs.it
What type of site
Dear Ziobudda,
The site is greengraffiti.com.
I am not really a web guy but I think it is not THAT complex. It is set up for our international partners. Is not an ecommerce site. What it is and what it was supposed to be are very far apart. It does need to work in multiple languages and it needs to have a simple CMS system. But they hard scripted and put band aids on things they could figure out.
It is not searchable by search engines. It doesn't even have metadata in the header. These are what I have heard. I will make sure to provide a detailed answer through our ITC guy.
Thanks for the time to look at our plea!
Regards,
Jim
While the price seems high,
While the price seems high, the site seems functional so it would help if you listed out what needs fixing.
Price seems high
Dear Nevets,
The price is a bit high but so were the expectations! I don't mind paying for things that work. The problem is that we have now taken it out of their hands after they had fix to "problems" - not searchable by search engines, loads very slowly. Does not view well on screens under 15", when a partner in one language updates their site, their language changes the text on the international site. When a partner chances their contact page, all contact pages disappear.
I will provide a list of the the things that would make it functional. We are not looking to fulfill our wishes and as the client we know we also screwed up by not picking the right partner. But getting it so that it doesn't have these endless bugs is our goal.
Thanks so much for looking at this.
Jim
The site is searchable by
The site is searchable by search engines so whoever made that evaluation is wrong and meta tags can be added quickly and easily through the installation of the nodewords module (Drupal 6). All drupal sites are relatively slow to load and yours is faster than average, based on the fact that I am in NZ and your site is probably hosted in Europe. Even the language section appears to work well, probably missing a lot of translations and needs to be configured to default to English.
You need to be careful now of not being suckered into people telling you that your site is a wreck, when it probably isn't. You need to do due diligence with all applicants until you find one that you trust.
Thanks
Dear New Zeal,
Thanks for the valuable insight. And here is where I am held hostage by my lack of knowledge and understanding regarding all things web-based. I have been advised to first find someone or some company to do a full audit so that we have a third party (not one looking to fix the problems just to evaluate them). Then not only will we know where we stand but I will be able to use the valuable time and gracious actions of the Drupal community.
I heard this was a pretty good community and I must say I did not expect the level of advice I have gotten so far.
I hope you don't mind if I use you for reality checks every now and then. You sound like a pretty good voice of reason.
Jim
The funny thing here is that
The funny thing here is that company even doesn't have an own site at the moment – yellowfizz.com redirects to their Facebook page.
The cost is indeed high (I wonder how much of that money was spent on 'corporate identity', 'digital branding' and similar bla-bla), but the site is in fact highly original.
Thanks Drave Robber
Dear Drave,
I wonder how they sleep at night.
The design of the site is quite nice. It matches our "rebel" or "underdog" brand quite well which may why we may have been lured into thinking the site was going well. Where it fails is in how it performs. We don't expect miracles and we understand these things can be complex but there are some basic problems that have been created by the company who instead of going with the idea of Drupal, began to go into the go and hard wire it which appears to have ruined the integrity and flexibility of the code.
We have been told there are 177 bad code pieces in the home page alone. The languages seem to be tangled so that when on country changes text, it appears in the International site. It doesn't display correctly on screens that are 13" and under. The number of small buggy and just things done in a very sloppy manner appears to be great.
Combine that with things like using a latin font (that didn't work outside of western Europe and North America) something even I warned them about early in the process (now fixed after 8 months of back and forth) makes us wonder how these guys could even call themselves website builders in the first place? We thought we had the bugs under control when we took the code away from them knowing we may have to spend a few bucks to fix the things. But more things continue to surface and one Drupal specialist company told us that it was so bad they would not attempt to "fix" it but would recommend "rebuilding" it that has quite frankly scared the hell out of us.
We will follow some solid advice and have the code audited by a neutral third party to see just where we stand and to know what it is that actually needs to be fixed.
I am grateful to the community who has taken the time to have a look at our site and is helping to point us in the right direction.
Warm regards,
Jim
Subscribing
As long as there is no green Follow button on forum discussions, I have to subscribe here to keep updated ;)
Baris Wanschers (@BarisW)
Drupal specialist
Hi Baris
Dear Baris,
I hope you can contribute to the discussion from your position of having taken a pretty thorough look at the code.
Groetjes,
Jim
It is difficult taking over a
It is difficult taking over a site, especially if documentation is thin. One reason why someone might suggest starting from scratch is that it can take a long time just to work how the site was built, let alone fix it.
The comment about 177 bad pieces of code, who knows. Sounds like a sales point from someone who wants to rebuild the site. Clearly there is a problem with the languages getting mixed.
I find the website slow. It looks like it is on shared hosting? Anyway it is on a VPS node (not dedicated), no APC, no Memcache, no sign of a reverse proxy (?), and maybe too many Apache modules loaded.
A Euro30k website should be hosted properly. The speed is not too bad considering (unless I am mistaken) that very little time, effort and money has been put into providing adequate hosting. Your Drupal company cannot be blamed for that, unless setting up and providing hosting was included in the services you paid them for.
Digit Professionals specialising in Drupal, WordPress & CiviCRM support for publishers in non-profit and related sectors
We take the blame where it is due
Dear John,
Thanks for pointing this out to us.
Could I be so bold as to ask us how we should be hosting the site? If we can correct this problem by simply making sure the hosting is done better, this is a quick win.
All suggestions are welcome!
Really appreciate your thoughts and observations!
Jim
Speed
> Could I be so bold as to ask us how we should be hosting the site?
Depends on your needs, the traffic for the site and your budget. :)
> If we can correct this problem by simply making sure the hosting is done better, this is a quick win.
Seems that you could improve it, yes.
To test load speed, you must use a scientific method, not just "how it feels."
Here
http://www.iwebtool.com/speed_test?domain=civihosting.com%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2...
is one place I tested and your site is slow to load there, at least when I tested it.
There is then this site http://tools.pingdom.com/fpt/ which tests each site at a location near to its server. There you site is not bad. Not great, but not bad.
There are two very simple things you can do improve the speed:
1. Get a better host
2. Turn on caching for JS and CSS on your site.
Thank you community!
Dear Drupal community,
Thank you so much for stepping forward and helping us with our website mess. This is one of the reasons we chose Drupal for our site. The community is living up to it's great reputation.
We will be sure to better define our needs as to use your time wisely and efficiently.
More to follow,
Jim
auditing our source code
Dear Drupal Community,
Thank you for all your words of wisdom and very valuable advice.
It appears that the very first step for us to take is to have our source code audited by a neutral third party (not a company who is also looking to fix the site). Would you have any suggests of how we could find the best party to do this, what estimated costs would be for such a service and what I should be asking for in terms of a report?
Once audited, we will be able to be in a better position to know what our challenges are and also better describe what we would need to fix it.
All suggestions and advice is welcome,
Jim
Most of a Drupal site like
Most of a Drupal site like yours is likely to be the standard code included in Drupal core and contributed modules. The poor use of modules by the site-builder is one potential source of problems.
Another problem is where standard modules have been hacked. If there are no records of this, and especially if it has affected Drupal core, this could be a huge problem. However, it should be possible to establish relatively quickly how far this has happened by comparing modules on your site with standard releases, even if working out a solution is a much bigger job.
Then there is the legitimate addition of custom code to a custom theme or custom modules. This could certainly be 'audited', though the most skilled coders can be very expensive.
The problems you mentioned are with speed (at least partly, probably mainly, down to hosting, as discussed); multi-language support; responsiveness to small screens; broken contact forms.
Your idea of having an audit does not strike me as a bad one, but possibly as the expensive route, especially if you end up being told (as is not unlikely) that rebuilding from scratch is honestly still the best option. In addition, finding bad code may easier than replacing it (as replacing code can have side-effects on other code or the database). The alternatives seems to be (1) site audit; (2) start from scratch; (3) continue putting some money into picking off problems one by one. It is far from certain that (2) will be the most expensive (especially if you are moving to Drupal 7, which in a sense will be forced on you when Drupal 6 is end of life, in two years or so).
Probably no one here will disagree when I suggest that your top priority (unless the site is to be rebuilt from scratch very soon) should be to do the security updates your site needs. Fixing a hacked site can be more expensive than prevention.
Digit Professionals specialising in Drupal, WordPress & CiviCRM support for publishers in non-profit and related sectors
Some code if you want to take a look for yourselves
Dear Community,
We know it is hard to advise us when we don't really know what is wrong with our code. It may not be the most responsible thing to do but we trust this community so here is a link to some of the code if it will help you understand our problem.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12671206/greengraffiti.zip
Thanks for your help!
Jim
You have posted your theme.
You have posted your theme.
There is really a lot of php and js in it! Also it is uncommented code, so it is hard to read or work on. I look forward to more detailed reactions from others.
Rebuilding your custom theme is not the same as rebuilding your entire site, after all. You have the option of keeping the site as is (being sure to do the security updates!), and put together a decent looking theme which is less adveturous and original than this one. If you want to keep this theme, and if (on more qualified advice than mine) the theme turns out to need to rebuilding rather than just debugging, that is maybe the sensible time for the upgrade to Drupal 7.
Digit Professionals specialising in Drupal, WordPress & CiviCRM support for publishers in non-profit and related sectors
Outline of the biggest problems
Thanks for taking a look at our mess! I am the person within our company who has a IT background so I will explain what the biggest issues for us are at the moment.
1. There is a big problem with the way the translation system of the websites has been set up. We are active in 11 countries at the moment with a lot of different languages. Somehow they were not able to use the standard Drupal t() translation function and created one of their own. It seems that this has caused a lot of problems. Somebody can translate a piece of english text on their Bolivian website and we end up with Spanish text on our international site! What also happens is that people translate a certain page and after they save the whole page disappears, but not only for them but for every other country! The good news is that this doesn't happen all the time but it really needs to be fixed. Besides this we have a problem with all languages that run from right to left, go check out Israel for instance.
2. The site does not scale, this means that everybody with a resolution below 900px will have a far from optimal experience on our site. We can see in our Google Analytics that around 30% of our visitors is using a resolution below this number and they have a bounce rate of around 75% and the people that do stay are gone really quick. So we know that we are losing almost a third of our visitors because of the bad experience they have on our site.
3. There is a big problem with the Google indexation of our website. We are partly being found in English when you search but for most of the other languages there is a big problem since a lot of their content is not found within Google.
4. There is a enormous amount of PHP and javascript being used in our website because of the fact that the programmers had never worked with Drupal before this project. So they used their PHP skills to solve all kind of problems which could have been solved by just using Drupal modules. I have been told that because of this and the creation of their own translation system the loading times of our website are pretty bad. I think that the solution for this problem is pretty extensive so our focus for the moment lies in solving the first 3 problems.
If you have any questions please ask and I will happily try to answer them!
We really would like to keep our site as it is at the moment but fix the biggest problems. We are really happy with the design and just need somebody who feels he is able to help us out. Completely rebuilding the site is by no means an option for us at the moment since we have already spent a fortune on building the site so far. We are a small startup and don't have the resources to take a big hit like this. That's also the reason we turned to the community for advice.....
Again thanks for all your time.
My thoughts for what they are
My thoughts for what they are worth.
1. I have no idea, short of attempting to rebuild the mult-language support. Given their habit of not documenting code, it sounds pretty impossible.
2. Not sure how attached you are to the current design? If you like it, but it cannot work with smaller screens, maybe you need a mobile alternative. Or you could redesign from scratch using a responsive layout. The increasing popularity of touch screens means drop down menus are getting less popular. I see no way to keep the drop-downs and have this design work well on small screens.
3. As you probably know you have a horrible issue with duplicate content, which is damaging with Google. e.g the following urls all point to the same content
http://www.greengraffiti.com/bg/content/biodiversity-2010
http://www.greengraffiti.com/bg/node/357
http://www.greengraffiti.com/fr/node/357
http://www.greengraffiti.com/node/357
Global redirect module would help a bit. However a fuller solution is clearly linked to solving problem 1.
4. I get that your code may be slow, but I still think that hosting is seriously underpowered, and sorting it would go fair way to solve the speed problem. After all, if you install Varnish, once a page is served from the Varnish cache, it is not re-generated, so the fact the code is slow is not relevant to page load speed.
Digit Professionals specialising in Drupal, WordPress & CiviCRM support for publishers in non-profit and related sectors
(4) is a problem, since they
(4) is a problem, since they did not use Drupal's language features, fixing that might be more expensive than redoing the site.
(2) Your basic theme is the issue here. You would need a theme that responds to lower resolution devices.
Just some wild thought, as I
Just some wild thought, as I believe nobody can ever give you the right advice without actually study your site code first.
1. If the translation system so messed up, why dont you just clone the site for each language and remove the translation alltogether. so you will have 11 different language, 11 different site domain / subdomain with 11 different database. Unless you want to spend 20 times more money to fix (with posibility to rebuild) the broken translation.
2. Even if you hire the best and most expensive drupaller, site under 900px deserves different layout + css + theme. unless you want your main theme to have width less than 900px like in the 90's.
3. see point 1
4. Although it is a "bad" practice to use php instead of drupal equivalent hook / code, it is not the end of the world. Drupal it self is "php" script. so the only difference is the "quality" of the code and I cannot say 100% for sure that your developer coding is "worse" than drupal equivalent without seeing the code it self.
My suggestions:
1. Try to get VPS or Dedicated hosting first, do a trial there, if your site got faster than it would be the cheapest solution you can find.
2. Install all the performance enhancing strategy you can find, eg. Memcache, APC, varnish, boost etc
3. hire new developer to build the "mobile" theme for site less than 900px (ipad?) and real mobile phone theme.
4. as for languages, IMO better split the site for each language
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if you can use drupal why use others?
VicTheme.com
Yikes. You posted the theme,
Yikes. You posted the theme, but almost all the templates have database queries, and business logic in them. I have to agree with the assessment that you should seriously consider building this from scratch again, from a shop or developer that knows what they are doing. Your theme is really a mess.
Yeah, I would tend to agree
Yeah, I would tend to agree with this assessment. They haven't even used the drupal menu system; it is all hard coded. While the developer appears to be competent, by not using drupal functionality you are missing out on one of the big benefits of drupal and that is that there are thousands of developers around the world who know it so you are not stuck with the person who originally wrote your site. In the case of this site, it looks as though you are tied to them, not only through the script but also through content!
I would tend to agree, based on the theme template and other things you have said, that this site would need to be redone from scratch.
Giving my point of view
Guys, thanks for you insight. I am the one who did a quick review of the code and gave GreenGraffiti the advice to fully rebuild the site in Drupal7. The current site hase some very big problems. I'll try to point out some of the current problems:
An example:
The menu is hard-coded and the code contains a lot of hard links to nodes. Example:
The '177 pieces of wrong code on the homepage' is based on a W3 validator scan (http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.greengraffiti.com&charset=%28detec...). 181 errors at the moment. Not good for SEO, as Google takes valid code into account as well.
Our conclusion is that it would be better to rebuild the site from scratch. And while you're doing that, make the switch to D7.
But given that the site is very original and fancy in its design this won't be an easy task. Some great (but hard) pages to build:
Baris Wanschers (@BarisW)
Drupal specialist
Well no one in this thread
Well no one in this thread has really disagreed with you. Only to add that the slow speed is probably also partly down to inadequate hosting, as well as heavy code. One tends to feel that yellowfizz should be helping out.
Digit Professionals specialising in Drupal, WordPress & CiviCRM support for publishers in non-profit and related sectors