Involvement of "non-programmers"

"Nevertheless I really would encourage the code contributers of drupal to use the knowledge of community members who may not be programmers but have expertise in certain maybe module specific fields.

For myself I can state that I am probably a pretty bad php-programmer. But as I science journalist I am working for years in the content industry and I know what is essential for creating online content. I have seen many cms. I know the pros and cons of many of these systems and I know a lot about the workflow and needs in online journalism."

Do you not make any money in your position as a "science journalist" or not have any connections with any organization that can fund/sponsor the creation of the module you want made?

I have seen that there are more than enough projects out there being lead by typically ungrateful "user communities", and those projects suffer. Drupal isn't like that, thankfully, but you can certainly choose from the many other CMS's that do. Or, if you find Drupal code is a must have for your needs, fork the project with fellow users like yourself and see how many volunteer developers show up.

Volunteer developers need to follow their muse and not be directed by people who absolutely refuse to take the responsibility on themselves to make the changes they want to see for their pet projects.

Maybe the community could find a way or workflow to use this knowledge in the development process.

It's called the issue queue. ;-) It's where feature requests, bug reports, and so on all go. You don't have to be a programmer to use it, and you don't have to be an experienced Drupal user. You just have to be able to articulate what you'd like to see happen.

Even among hard-core coders, the most difficult part of a project is often figuring out how it should work, and picking through the complexities that arise in special cases. This isn't code, it's planning and brainstorming. People with domain-specific knowledge (who also understand that sometimes the 'perfect' solution isn't doable with the available resources) are worth their weight in gold.

These folks ARE out there in the issue queues and they ARE contributing ideas and feature requests. I know, I get their issues posted in my modules' issue queues. :-)

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Lullabot! | Eaton's blog | VotingAPI discussion

Over the course of three and a half years I've raised over $15,000 to develop a social network for my local neighborhood. To date, I've ended up with a horrendously coded php/mysql site which is currently being phased out -- potentially by Drupal. This is a non-developers existence: Working to raise money in order to manifest your dreams while waiting patiently until open source developers create what you need.

I am a professional Information Architect which means that I make money putting together the specs for developers to build. My assumptions are that this would make it easy to get involved in the Drupal community, and yet I feel a wall exists which only allows developers through the gate. The result being that Drupal works better as a "framework" than it does an alternative to user-friendly applications such as Wordpress.

Which leaves me hoping that someday Drupal opens its gates to usability people such as myself. I continue to explore alternatives such as Ning.com and Wordpress simply because they're more user friendly. Until these ideas break through the minds of the "New Ruling Class," Drupal will continue to be trapped on the list of superior open source products that only a handful of people can effectively use.

(If you still don't believe that Drupal is more developer-centric with little support for the usability types, check out another post which offers a comparison of Wordpress to Drupal while offering solid suggestions for Drupal.com. You can read that "thread" here.)

I can completely understand what you are saying, and to a degree it makes sense, however look at it this way.

I am a professional programmer. I go to work, and I am given projects by people who may be good at writing specifications and have more knowledge of the target market than I do. However some of this work I may not enjoy. It may not interest me, but I do it because it puts food on the table.

When it comes to coding on a volunteer basis my time is precious, and I like to use that time, perhaps selfishly, in a way I enjoy... by writing code that does the things I want... not by creating a virtual employment scenario where people (even those who know better than me) give me work and I do it... I have no motivation in this case (e.g. food on table).
Offer me money or convince me that it will make my own websites better, then yes I may do it.
Pester me into doing it because it'll make your website better, or give you more time to enjoy yourself whilst I labour over the code isn't going to get you very far!

I have been using Drupal successfully for a few years. Yes, I am primarily a hobbyist. I use it for my site, my sister-in-laws business and a few friends and a non-profit. I do not know php. It is true I have figured out enough to do basic theme stuff. You would be hard pressed to say that I do not have an effective voice in the Drupal community.

I contribute back by following things that are interesting to me. I occasionally test patches. When GUI layout issues come up I definitely follow and comment on them ( for instance the change to the /admin layout is something I followed and contributed feedback to). This type of discussion happens. But in order to catch it, you have to be involved and follow the development list.

You can make UI mock ups. Such mock ups have resulted in very nice usability changes or very good explanations why their use case is to narrow. When I first started with 4.3 - 4.4 there was a big series of discussions the resulted in changes to 4.5 UI going forward. These changes continued until someone hit on the UI you see in 5.0 which is a significant change.

Non-coder contribution is welcome and happens all the time. However, if you do not code and your changes do not interest someone who does, then it will not happen. If you can demonstrate why/how something would improve looks, work flow, usability then people will get excited about it. If you cannot, then they will not. This leads to a few possible conclusions.

The idea is not all that good
The idea is to narrow of scope
The idea is not well explained or presented
The idea is not feasible with the current Drupal code base
The manner in which it was presented was offensive (yes, if you offend the community the community may just ignore you)

To many assume that Drupal developers do not know what they are doing. Many developers deploy and code sites that are diverse in their nature and scope. From community sites, to blogs, to corporate brochures, to back ends to other systems.

All that said, contribution is welcome. Just be willing to refine based on feedback. Understand that if you are new, your ideas may not go in this time. You may be to late in the cycle for it to get in. The feature/function may already be there, just not in a way you understand.

Some things in Drupal take 1-2-3 release cycles to get in. Even with the speed of development, some things are complicated. CCK took 3 versions to get the base part in and it's still has components that are being moved into core. The phpTemplate theme engine took two versions and is being improved more as well. The install system took several versions. The new menu system is also two version to get in. These refinements and feedback cycle that went into them has resulted in a better Drupal.

What Drupal does is not simple. In order to influence it's path forward, you have to be involved. Involvement takes time but that time builds your reputation. Just because someone has a reputation in their own community doesn't mean anyone outside of it has heard of them. Also, sometimes you have to educate the community on your field. If the community doesn't 'get' what you are talking about, then it may be that you have to educate them on the finer points of a field. (I had this discussion with someone very passionate about SEO).

To many start their position off with strong words 'sucks', 'you must', 'this is wrong'. This immediately gets them ignored by some and often side tracks the discussion to no where. Those that start off with 'here is a GUI mock up that moves check box to here' and that makes it more readable often have better results.

Another way I contribute back is by trying to help people contribute effectively. Hopefully this information helps you.

-Steven Peck
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Test site, always start with a test site.
_{Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain}

gushie

I can completely understand what you are saying, and to a degree it makes sense, however look at it this way.

I am a professional programmer. I go to work, and I am given projects by people who may be good at writing specifications and have more knowledge of the target market than I do. However some of this work I may not enjoy. It may not interest me, but I do it because it puts food on the table.

When it comes to coding on a volunteer basis my time is precious, and I like to use that time, perhaps selfishly, in a way I enjoy... by writing code that does the things I want... not by creating a virtual employment scenario where people (even those who know better than me) give me work and I do it... I have no motivation in this case (e.g. food on table).
Offer me money or convince me that it will make my own websites better, then yes I may do it.
Pester me into doing it because it'll make your website better, or give you more time to enjoy yourself whilst I labour over the code isn't going to get you very far!

I completely respect this point of view. Coders are only going to code what interests them, or if motivated adequately, either by financial reward, reward, or being persuaded it would be a great feature they themselves might use.

Moving on, I believe there should be a suggestions section that the core developers should keep an eye on, and look at what may be getting a lot of requests as chances are regular requests of a feature will probably be a good indication of an improvement to Drupal. But you might ask, why should they (the core devs) do that? Well if they are the patrons of Drupal they obviously want to make it the best they can don't they? ;-)

Then you have the 'community' coders. Perhaps we can have a mod request section where non coders can post requests for coders (perhaps they can post them in the suggestions section too). Then maybe coders can keep an eye on this section as something might grab them. It also lets coders ask questions and perhaps develop a relationship with the person requesting the feature - they may be able to collaborate and that may only be possible if both parties 'click'.

You already have the paid feature request section so that should stay.

On top of that, as a relative newbie to Drupal, I do feel there is not much a sense of a community spirit. Don't get me wrong, there are some truly brilliant and amicable people here - so this is not the fault of the community itself. It's more to do with the stock Drupal forums. They are fine as a question and answer kind of forum, but not as a forum that will keep people coming back. And there is a very good reason for that. Look at the largest communities on the web (big-boards.com) and see what software they use, more importantly, look at the features of that software, and recognize that it's the platform that is largely responsible to enable good community relations. Which of course keeps people coming back and more to the point, keeps people recommending that site to others. If the feel good factor is not there, no one will shout about you or your community.

Things like avatars make it easier to recognize people - therefore make it easier to build a rapport with others.
As do things like signatures - they personalize members, and again help to identify people, which in turn helps build relationships. Then there are useability issues, such as being able to quickly and easily format replies (simple whysiwyg is needed). I could go on and on and on about the importance of the platform, but the easiest way is to take a look at the biggest forums out there and recognise that NONE of them are using drupal forums - and that is because of the features offered that enable a beter platform for communities. I've seen people say "well help make the drupal forums better then", that really would be a mammoth task - forums like vB have a huge number of options and features and ALL of them add up. I think Drupal devs should concentrate on the CMS aspect, not the forum one because it just would be too time consuming (the leading forum platforms have teams as big as Drupals just for those forums!).

If you think there is no substance to what I am saying, just look at Drupals arch rival, mambo, didn't their new found popularity coincide with their split... which, also came with their better forum software installed on their site?

I really like Drupal, but I fear that it is soon going to be de-throned as the king of cms PURELY because the community is being held back, like I said, I think that is very much to do with the platform you are giving your community - it's just not good enough to create and sustain relationships between members (which as explained above has knock on effects - lack of community spirit = people jump ship - both coders and non-coders).

I recommend using vBulletin for the forums here. And creating an official bridge/module/plugin (like the nice guys at druplatin.com are theoverclocked.com are trying to do). The best CMS system with the best Forum software. Still keep the Drupal forums as part of the drupal system - but recognise they are a very simple forum and you include them for completeness, so if people don't want a full blown system they can use those, and if people do want a full blown system, they can use vB).

I would also very seriously consider charging for Drupal or it's support. Even if something as little as $10 per annum for access to the support forums. That money can then pay for the core teams time spent on developing Drupal even further. Hopefully maybe it will even enable a staff team to be taken on full time.

$10 is practically nothing. I appreciate that it may not be what the founders want. But if it means a better drupal in the long run I think it's a great idea.

I would also like to finish off by saying that I (I guess like many) didn't come to Drupal because it is 'free', I came in search of the BEST cms for my needs, and so long as I can afford it I will pay for it. I appreciate that developing world class software costs money and have no probs paying for it.

I have a lot of respect for open source software BUT you really must find ways to fund the projects to a standard that meets your end goal. If that is making Drupal the BEST cms out there then great! If it means making Drupal a 'decent' free cms then, unfortunately I will probably look elsewhere and keep my options open :-(

I hope I haven't offended anyone by this post - I am only trying to help. I can see that many others have posted trying to help make Drupal even better too. And I will say that that is a constant, nearly all the feedback I have read is people suggesting things to make it better, the best CMS out there. and I propose that you need to get your community sorted first, and that's not going to happen if their platform is not up to the job, I stress, look at the big-boards.com forums and see how and why they are successful.

Just to reiterate, I think Drupal is great, the coders are talented and are great people, the core team has great vision - but the community is not being given the chance to bloom because it is being held back by the forum software - and this in turn is holding Drupal back.

As a side note, I run a very successful forum myself - so should hope I know a little about what I'm talking about :-)

What is the purpose of open-source software?

Why create non-commercial CMSes?

Is it just for fun? For personal pleasure? Or is there a greater good here that is trying to be accomplished?

I can't quite put my finger on it, but there is some sort of strange feeling to Drupal development that does not feel as "generous" as other open source communities. It's evident in the attitude that non-programmers do seem to get here more than in any other open source forums I've ever been on.

There just doesn't seem to be a greater vision here.

When I go to the Joomla home page I get a sense, from the wording and "excitement" that seems to be expressed there, that "we're all" creating this wonderful open source CMS that is going to change the world. And by "we're all," they seem to include the publishers who aren't programmers, just as much as the programmers.

I don't get that feeling from Drupal at all. I use both CMSes, they have their strengths and weaknesses, but by far Joomla is much more user friendly and oriented towards making it *easier* on publishers. (THAT SAID, I have more sites running Drupal!)

I mean, just the fact that the Joomla team has put an effort into making templates (themes) backwards compatible in their new core platform...I can tell that they are considering the average publisher in their development plans. Can I expect that from Drupal? Probably not. Each time another release comes out I can pretty much expect that everything I've already developed and customized on a Drupal site WILL NOT WORK and is not forward compatible without major tweaking and...geez...it's hard to recommend a long-term buy-in for some folks with these sorts of basic structural issues. It also makes me feel, honestly, that the people developing this don't give two craps whether publishers have a stable platform that is easy to upgrade over time.

Where's the cohesive vision? Where's the care for the publisher?

On a more personal note...it can be intimidating for publishers to come here and get so much attitude from some (not all, but some) developers.

I can hack code and do a bang-up job customizing existing code, but I cannot code very well from scratch. Does that mean my input is not valuable? I've been designing sites for a long time and have a good understanding of what makes something user-friendly. Even with that I am limited with my tech knowledge...I'm too savvy to judge how an average user might respond at times. Sometimes it's the people who don't know programming at all who are best at seeing what works from the front-end.

And here's what I also don't get. I hear a few programmers here saying "I'm just doing this because I want to do something that *I* want to do...so to heck with your suggestions."

I understand, you may be frustrated dealing with clients or bosses and their stupid demands all day...but if you are in any way interested in creating cool apps I'd think you'd *welcome* constructive feedback. Why get so bristly about it? Is it just a case of egos flying around?

So with all of this...I think I wish the "Drupal community" as a whole would drop the snobbish attitudes and get behind a greater vision: WHY are you here? WHY do you believe in open source? WHY is online publishing important to you? WHY is it important to give free publishing tools to the masses??

I have a friend from Venezuela who just told me that one of their top TV networks is being shut down by the government for being vocal in opposing the government.

What does this have to do with Drupal? EVERYTHING. Because if you DON'T want your world and your media to become totally controlled by Microsoft, Big Corporations, or Big Government, then you must get behind OPEN SOURCE as part of the revolution of PERSONAL PUBLISHING, and THAT'S why we should all be working together here on making the platform better.

Off of soapbox.
:-)

I use Drupal for a commercial site and am fairly happy with it; there are quirks and idiosyncrasies that pop up and surprise me every now and again, but still, a great system that I am happy with.

This thread is an interesting one for me; as a former CEO of a software company, the requirements gathering process is very different for open source projects versus commercially developed ones and the ability to connect an economic model to the requirements process and individual developers is a key issue that needs to be resolved. So, from the perspective of a guy who is willing to pay for things to be built that would benefit not just me, but other businesses like mine, here are some suggestions to make this easier: