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By grimmreaper@drupal.org on
I would like to draw attention to a certain hate site in the sites list called Know Islam. It is quite obviously a website spreading Islamaphobia, and I would suggest it be removed. I don't think we would like to be affliated with any hate sites, be it white-supremacists or anti-islamists.
Thanks.
[This topic has been closed]
Comments
Can we exclude it?
I don't approve of that site, but as far as I know the list is generated automatically from all sites pinging drupal.org so I don't think we have any control over whether or not it's listed. The only option is to complain to their ISP and get them shut down.
--
Mike Cohen, http://www.mcdevzone.com/
How long did you spend on that site?
I have been right through it. I wonder how deeply you delved? I too, disagree with hate sites. The author of that website is providing a personal insight into why [s]he is no longer muslim. Its a personal experience, simply that.
Yes, some of the stories are horrible, but nowhere did I see a call to assault, humiliate, murder etc muslims.
This website owner thoughtfully provides links to other websites ... such as Faith Freedom, which appears to have a very large audience.
Now, I have spent well over THREE hours on both sites. They are a fascinating read and as an agnostic, compassionate, modern and socially aware westerner, I appreciate an insiders view on the subject. Some of the stories are by people who have been muslim all their life, they have lived and breathed their religion.
I find nothing to indicate a hatred of muslims, nor do I see anything that promotes any hatred at all. Both of these websites made me THINK. In fact, it has been a long time since I found such thought provoking reads. They shine out compared to the usual uses for Drupal - what music I am listening to, the software I just installed, what clothes I just bought, what I did at lunchtime and other such trivialities.
Rather than being condemned, silenced and censored, sites such as these should be encouraged.
If enough decent people, and I am including the VAST majority of everyday Muslims, viewed these websites with an open, questioning mind, it might actually stop the senseless carnage of young suicide bombers taking their own lives, along with thousands of innocents on the streets of our cities.
Is my website a hate site too? Should my website be excluded? The answers are subjective. So it seems is your reading of the Know Islam website.
Dont forget, one of the things that makes the internet a wonderful place is freedom of speech and lack of censorship. You as a netizen have the right to NOT go to sites that you find offensive. Please dont let your parochial and misguided views influence the freedom of speech we enjoy in Cyberia.
If you are open minded enough ... go BACK and re-read some of the articles on the Know Islam and Faith Freedom websites. These authors quotes the Holy Koran extensively, and I for one found it particularly interesting, having only a limited exposure to the Koran.
Whats more important, the Know Islam website provides an avenue for other apostates to give their own insights into Islam.
Thats my $0.02 worth ... thanks to the freedoms on the internet, you DIDNT even have to ask for it. =8^)
Do you want my comments to be removed because they dont co-incide with yours? Before you start threads suggesting censorship, READ and digest ... otherwise, people will think you are simply a redneck teenage fool playing on Daddies computer.
MuguMaster.
http://mugu.info/ leading Nigerian 419 Advance Fee, Lottery and other internet Fraudsters up the garden path!
PS. I thank the original poster for drawing my attention to the Know Islam website. You have done me a remarkable service, even though your original intention, IMHO, was misguided.
Liberty of speech
Go figure this - Drupal gets used for political and religious websites. As it wasn't planned.
Some people will object to this.
In Western Europe, Nazi websites are banned and punishment is imposed onto them that host, admin or even sometimes talk about them. On the other hand, spreading communist propaganda is quite legal. Which ideology killed more people?
In Ukraine, Russia and a few other former communist countries, discussing the bad sides of your government will get you jailed or even worse.
In Saudi Arabia, being Christian and talking about it is not a good thing.
In Sri Lanka, speaking Tamil in a predominantly Singhalese region/city will land you in trouble.
In other places, hating Islam, or spreading 'lies' about it, is bad.
To quote Voltaire, "I will not approve what you say, but I will die to defend your right to say what you want.". If we cannot respect the Freedom of Speech, then we don't have a place on this internet.
If Drupal turns into political bickering about 'evil', 'racist' or whatever websites, it missed it's intended goal. This is the internet. If you don't want to be associated with 'hate sites' and such, you should maybe follow the life of a hermit or use another CMS which doesn't have that 'ping' feature. A 'ping' feature which does not freakin' care if you're an organic hemp grower, evil right-wing neo-nazi, pro- or anti-abortionist, Christian, Muslim or whatever (about this - I remember a phrase from Ice-T in the album "Body Count" - "If you're white, if you're black, if you're from Mars, we don't f******* care. If you have a p***y, we will f*** you." - Drupal works about the same way.).
For all others, welcome!
In Ukraine, Russia and a few
In Ukraine, Russia and a few other former communist countries, discussing the bad sides of your government will get you jailed or even worse.
This is a newstitle from newspaper dated on 1987?:)
---------------
DesignCollector
To get an understanding of
To get an understanding of why some might think KnowIslam could be a hate site please look at the content again, but mentally substitute the words "Islam" and "Muslim" with "Judaism" and "Jew".
In most countries a site called "KnowJudaism" with similar kind of material would have been removed by the service provider by the end of the day!
On the other hand, KnowIslam could be a valuable resource exploring the realities (some good - some bad) and misconceptions about Islam.
It all depends on whether it allows opposing views on the site, even when they completely demolish the site's initial argument, and how the content is framed.
I'll go with Voltare on this one, KnowIslam should have the same freedom of speach as anyone else. As for linking to it, there is another Drupal site which is pro-Islam, it would be nice to have a balance and link to both - in fact it would be nice if they also linked to each other ;-)
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Drupal Specialists: Consulting, Development & Training
Robert Castelo, CTO
Code Positive
London, United Kingdom
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wanna bet?
I don't think you could legally remove a site called KnowJudaism just because of the title. And if you could, hypothetically, clone KnowIslam into its KnowJudaism counterpart, you'd certaily cause a fuss, but I don't think it could be shut down by court order in the US. Even it it doesn't allow opposing views. There is no rule that says sites have to open themselves to criticism and host that criticism to boot (microsoft.com doesn't allow Linux fans to blog or start pro-linux forums on their site). I think this whole discussion is stemming from some sort of misconception that religion is holy and that nobody can criticise it because it might offend the religious.
- Robert Douglass
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visit me at www.robshouse.net
Legal?
There's a law being planned in the UK which would treat religious discrimination the same as racial discrimination.
Unfortunately it's quite badly written, would stiffle a lot of legitimate critisism, and even make it illegal to tell a joke against a religion. If it gets passed KnowIslam would probably be shut down if it was hosted in UK.
There's a lot of people opposing this law, so hopefully it won't get passed in it's current form.
[a.k.a. MegaGrunt]
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Drupal Specialists: Consulting, Development & Training
Robert Castelo, CTO
Code Positive
London, United Kingdom
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Legal disclaimer
Couldn't we add a very strongly worded legal disclaimer to the Drupal sites page saying that we're not responsible for their content and be done with it? I hate censorship. My blog (robshouse.net) doesn't make it through the pornography filters where my mom works - it is supposedly a sex site. Since she doesn't have internet at home, and she can't access it after-hours from work, due to the porn filter, she's never read my blog or seen my online gallery (offline at the moment). Not that this is terribly related to KnowIslam, but it really isn't our role to start monitoring Drupal sites for content and taking actions based on that content. Drupal could be used for hosting porn too, and it will probably happen someday. What are we going to do then? Either we hand-pick the Drupal sites or we leave them alone. Or, we let users vote on them and have an unpublish threshold like the moderation queue.
- Robert Douglass
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visit me at www.robshouse.net
I agree ...
Drupal does need to cover its own backside ... Please amend the site by placing disclaimers in the appropriate places.
The last thing I would like to see is some religious loony taking out such a worthy piece of software, all in the name of their misguided religion.
Regards,
MuguMaster
http://mugu.info/ leading Nigerian 419 Advance Fee, Lottery and other internet Fraudsters up the garden path!
Not hate site
We should not say a critic site is a "hate site". Criticizing any religion is complelty aceptable, as most of them have something to be criticized. It's part of the freedom we have to preserve on our societies. The religions have the right to defend thenselfs if they wish so.
What would be of our "free" societies if we could not criticize one another anymore. I live in a catholic country and even Catholics criticize the pope around here, very strongly sometimes. So why can’t ex-Muslims criticize their own old religion?
What is wrong is to promote violence against a certain sect or group of people. From what I've seen on the site I could not find it there. So not a hate site, simply a site which shows a vision of Islam, that some could consider wrong, some could consider right. It's not up to us to judge that.
Miguel Duarte
Webmaster of: Lisbon Guide & Love Poems
Where do we draw the line?
This supposedly informative website, that is KnowIslam, doesn't even pretend to be a balanced discussion about Islam .. every single article in there in one way or another is a slur to the relegion. It tries very hard to connect everything wrong with the world today to the faith. there isn't a shred of decent conversation otherwise. Even the forums, there around 20 subtopics, and each titled in a way to discuss an allegation against Islam. Its obvious this website is formed for the sole pupose of giving Islam a bad name and to spread fear about its followers. Its a congregation of only people who hates this releigion as the vitriol in the comments can only suggest.
If that isn't a hate site, i don't know what is. Imagine someone putting a site with "clonclusive evidence" of how african americans are less evolved than other human beings andclaims that their being in america can only bring bad things to the nations. Then you have hundreds of like minded people posting of how disgusting and rotten b***ks and n*****s are. You wouldn't call that critisism, you would call that hate.
Imagine a website made for the sole pupose of spreading fear of Jewish people, claiming their releigion and prophets are wrong. Claiming that all the wars in this world are caused by the jews and how jews make human beings suffer all over the world. then hundreds of like minded people congregate to insult the jewish people and faith too. You wouldn't call that critisism, you would call that hate.
The same standards should apply to this website too, just because it is anti-islamists, does it make it less of a hate site?
Is it true ...?
That Mohammed had a 6 year old wife, called Aisha ...? I have an 8 year old daughter myself. How can decent people condone this? In plain language, its paedophillia. In my civilised country it is illegal and you will definitely go to gaol --- without passing go, and without collecting your 200 bux.
I also found out about female circumcision. Even though the Koran does not require female circumcision, Muslims still do it to their baby girls --- worse yet, it is done without anaesthetic! In plain language, its cruel, brutal and barbaric. Yet again, in my civilised country it is illegal and you will be fined, you can also go to gaol and your children will probably be removed from your custody.
I also saw Mothers and Fathers cutting their young sons on the face and head. Smiling as the blood flowed! In plain language, that is assault. You guessed it, In my civilised country it is illegal and you will go to gaol and your children will be taken off you.
These things are just three particularly abhorrent practices of one of the worlds main organised religion. Its small thanks that the Christians and Jews stop at circumcising boys.
It scalds my heart and I cry silent tears when I think of the indignities and suffering to which these poor little Islamic children are being subjected to daily. Dont Muslim parents love their children? If they do, this is a very strange way of showing love.
All in the name of some megalomaniac, egotistical madman who died over 500 years ago. These days, there are medications which will stop people from hearing voices. These days people who hear voices are also known as schizophrenics.
The modern versions of Mohammed are Hitler, Pol Pot, Idi Amin and Stalin. Would you worship them? I think not. Would you protest and try and educate their followers? I think so. Why should Mohammed be any different? His antecedents at least never promoted and advocated the rape of women. In my opinion, that makes him the worst. Unfortunately, Mohammeds Cult of Personality is still around long after he has gone.
With all the talk of lopping hands and feet from the opposite side, smiting kafir above the neck, condoning murder of disbelievers, promoting the rape of women --- the koran in my opinion is a book about hate.
If Allah wanted to communicate with me, wouldnt Allah do so directly? After all, he is supposed to be omniscient, omnipotent and more importantly omnipresent. Why wouldnt he talk to me directly in my ear? Why would Allah need to go through the mouth of another? It doesnt make any sense ... The same goes for the Christian and Jewish Gods too. After all, a true God would be able to talk in every ear on the planet at once! After creating such a complex thing as the Universe, talking to 20 or so billion people at once MUST be a snap! This is why I think that religion is erroneous and outdated.
Regards,
MuguMaster
http://mugu.info/ leading Nigerian 419 Advance Fee, Lottery and other internet Fraudsters up the garden path!
This is the sort of blinded
This is the sort of blinded ignorance that is prevalent among hate groups ... Just picking the source of information that is convinient to the to their worldview. It took me all of five minutes of googling to debunk all your allegations above, five minutes you didn't bother to spend, because it would mean you would have to think.
See when it is consumated ... goodness is it so hard to do your own research.
Shock horror, so do christians and atheists ... see arguments of culture vs religion. Educate yourself.
You would do well to know, in this world, that nothing is as easy as how one website tells you so. Be prepared to think for yourself.
It is you - yourself who are blind, Grimmreaper.
I thought we were having a civilised discourse. Yet it seems that anyone that disagrees with your views belongs to a hate group. Go figure! I simply question. I do not advocate violence or death to Muslims, or any one else for that matter. I say, "LIve and let live!" provided nothing is done to harm me or my family. Its a shame that the Koran does not offer me the same respect. If I visited an Islamic country, I conceivably could be beheaded simply for not being Muslim.
You play with words, and beat around the bush, Grimmreaper. As you well know, Grimmreaper. Aisha:
In your reply, Grimmreaper, you infer that my information is incorrect, yet, you do not state the facts. Why? Because you know that these facts are abhorrant to most civilised people irrespective of faith.
I am surprised he could keep his perverted hands off her for so long! As a pederast, he seems to have been patient for three years ... he couldnt wait until she was 16? She was married to him for nine years. Its just a shame that she lost her childhood innocence so early. Am I not stating facts? Please correct me with links if I am wrong, and I will publicly in this forum apologise for my error.
In my opinion it is still paedophilia. In my country, that same 54 year old man would be jailed for a minimum of 20 years, it is considered a crime, its called child abuse and sexual mollestation.
I gather from your response that you think it is ok for a 54 year old man to have sex with a 9 year old girl. Oh please ... ! This is an indisputable fact: its in the Koran. If a 54 year old man had sex with my 9 year old daughter, The police would not be able to arrest him because I would kill him first. I am pretty sure that my attitude is similar to most parents that love their children.
I told you earlier ... I have been to both Pro and Anti Islamic sites. My opinion has been formed as a result. If you are a Muslim, you should actually go and read the Koran. Its pretty clear cut that the issues I raise, and you have debunked [without evidence I might add] are there for all to see. If you have debunked these issues, please provide me with links. I am an open minded individual and would like to read these sites.
Wikipedia indicates that this practice is performed by Muslims, Christians and Animists. It does not say that Jews practice Female Genital Mutilation. Further research basically shows that this is a cultural phenomenon. It is not a religious requirement at all. Except of course, The Egyptian Mufti Sheikh Jad Al-Hâqq 'Ali Jad Al-Hâqq issued, in 1994, a fatwa stating: Circumcision is mandatory for men and for women. If the people of any village decide to abandon it, the [village] imam must fight against them as if they had abandoned the call to prayer.. The practice is predominated in African and Middle-East countries. The vast majority of practitioners are Muslim.
You call me blinded and ignorant Grimmreaper. I say in response, that people who read the Koran, and practice Islam, a religion that openly calls for the murder of unbelievers, allows the rape of women, and allows for paedophillia are blind and ignorant.
I do not hate Muslims. I have several friends, and very close friends, who are Islamic. I am going to ask them about the things I have discovered this week. They will remain my friends irrespective of their faith. They are decent, respectable and intelligent people. One is a doctor, the other is a lawyer. I just dont understand how decent, intelligent people can, to use your words, blindly follow such tenets as espoused in the Koran and the Hadith.
Islam does not promote harmony or peace with others. It preaches death and destruction to kafir, in other words, people who are different. Great message! In fact, there will never be peace on this earth until all who are not Muslim are eradicated, and Islam is the only religion. This is what the Koran says and you know Grimmreaper, that I am speaking truly.
Regards,
MuguMaster
http://mugu.info/ leading Nigerian 419 Advance Fee, Lottery and other internet Fraudsters up the garden path!
Hate speech
Unlike in the US, there is no absolute freedom of speech in most European countries, and hate speech is indeed banned. Given that drupal.org is hosted in the Netherlands, this would apply to us.
However, removing sites from the list sets a nasty precedent that I'd much rather avoid.
In any case, I took a quick look at the Know Islam site and I agree with other posters here that it is not at all hate speech. It presents a negative view of Islam, but that view is supported by quotes from the religious sources of Islam itself.
hate love
Though I hate hate sites, I do think freedom is speech is ranked above baning this freedom.
Since drupal.org is now in the Netherlands indeed, it should comply with Dutch law. AFAIK linking to a site is legal, no matter what the content of that site is. Deeplinking is still legal.
It gets a bit more complicated if a webiste has disciminating text in the slogan, is it the "mirror" drupal.org or the RCP-ing site that should be quilty? RDF generates a new context regarding place and content.
I dislike the "know"islam site but it's good to see that there is a drupal powerd pro islam site as well (cant find it right now, not listed?). Anyone still got the url?
--
groets
bertb
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groets
bert boerland
Absolute freedom of speech
There is no "absolute" freedom of speech in the US. In fact I can't think of a single country where there is. In the US, if your speech suggests violence and people follow that advice you may be convicted of facilitation. Of course there's also the classic example of yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. Basically, using speech to cause physical harm is illegal in the US.
That being said, my site documents the many reasons I hate Microsoft and why no one should use their software. So technically I run a hate site. At the financial company where I work speaking against Microsoft is considered blasphemy. When I suggest alternatives I get laughter and anger. The senior developer has definitely hurt my position here because he's a huge Microsoft fan. So should my hate site be dropped from the Drupal sites list? It's not a big middle finger to Bill Gates but rather a thorough documentation of facts and analysis.
If we block certain sites then at what point do we draw the line? How do we prevent it from getting to the point where we filter everyting but what we agree with? I say we leave up all sites and at most put up a disclaimer on the drupal-sites page.
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Don't use Microsoft software
quote
- Robert Douglass
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visit me at www.robshouse.net
First impressions
This is an example of why I'd like to see the 'Sites' link on the homepage go to case studies rather than the ping-aggregated Drupal sites page. We want to give users the best of the best for first impressions. Here is the project issue.
+1 for this
Although I'd much rather have a "featured sites" module based around taxonomy (for the different site types), a description (who did it? what developers? what was the approach/purpose), and a screenshot.
Anyone up for this?
e.g. Personal Websites should *definitely* include jluster.org.
The site being discussed
The site being discussed here is mine. So if this site were about Christianity, would any of you have a problem with it? (NO I'm NOT a Christian) As an ex-Muslim do I not have a right to discuss my former religion? Did you know that Islam calls for death penalty for leaving Islam? (That means ME)
Where on my site do I encourge anyone to hate anyone else? Please show me and I will remove that material.
If I am wrong, and Islam is wonderful, then the good in Islam should shine right through and you would be able to just disregard my site right?
Also, I link to Islamic sites right from my home page in a block called "resources" and also in my links page. If there is a drupal site that is Islamic, I'll be glad to link to them, let us see how glad they would be to link to me?
Here is a link to my "About Us" page, if anyone is interested. http://knowislam.info/drupal/support
For those who can see that criticizing Islam does not = hatred, thanks for your support.
Enough
I would apreciate you restricting your fear mongering to your own website and not here please.
I personally come from a country where Islam is the official relegion of the country as written in the consitution and no one is killed over leaving Islam, leaving the faith just involves filling in a form and paying a 4 dollar admin fee. This is common within the entire region, if you puport to not know this then obviously you're not even looking.
This is the common theme within your entire website, one sided, unbalanced allegations and quotations out of context. You may not tacitly encourage violence against muslims, but create such an unreal image of what islam is until it incites such fear, distrust and hatred against them that it will lead to violence. Your website easily falls with the likes of other websites listed in the hate directory, but of course, just like these websites, you are just trying to "inform and critisize":
http://www.bcpl.net/~rfrankli/hatedir.htm
Hatedir.htm
Really, the sites hitlerisgod, hatrediscool and so forth simply fall into another class altogether. It is not a crime to present a one-sided view of things. Nor is it a crime to be biased. Nor is it a crime to be wrong.
- Robert Douglass
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visit me at www.robshouse.net
Leave Know Islam alone
I would appreciate you ceasing your continual call for censorship. It has no place in a free and open society. I would also appreciate you discontinuing promoting your own prejudices on the drupal.org website.
Your own prejudices and fears are blatantly obvious in your continual attack on the Know Islam website. The longer you continue to attack the Know Islam website, the longer you will keep this thread in active status, and therefore, you are promoting the Know Islam website. By any measure, this is a Good Thing [TM].
You call the Know Islam website biased and negative. You too are biased and negative Grimmreaper. In my opinion, that makes you a hypocrite.
The Know Islam website is not going to be censored no matter how much you keep whinging and whining. Thank heavens for the good sense of the drupal community at large. Free speech is important --- as I pointed out before, I do not find anything offensive about the Know Islam website.
Organised religion [and by this I mean ALL organised religion] is obsolete. It originally was a way for primitive humans to explain their place in an unknown and sometimes hostile universe. Religion serves NO logical purpose for modern humankind.
Religion is responsible for most of the woes this world currently faces, it foments trouble and causes wars. Now-a-days, organised religion is about making money and sustaining power. Step back and look at it with open eyes.
I will continue to defend the right to free speech. Know Islam has a right to be seen. More power to the author! Anyone who attempts to debunk the myths concerned with organised religion should be encouraged.
Grimmreaper - a more beneficial use of your energies [and those of other Muslims] would be directed in protesting the senseless murder of innocent civilians by your lunatic fringe. 66 or more people were murdered this week in Iraq. Why dont you clean up your own backyard? Try and stop this senseless violence and murder! Surely you agree that these suicide bombers are wrong?
These suicide bombers killed other Muslims, the attacks were not even aimed at the Occupying forces!!! The media says that the aim is to cause sectarian strife between Iraqi citizens to disrupt the forthcoming elections. Where is the outrage at this slaughter in the Muslim world? Nowhere to be seen!
Why dont you get a real cause, and try and actually do something positive to stop this continual litany of suicide bombers? As a result of visiting the Know Islam website, I have gained a better insight into Islam. Many thanks to Know Islam's creator. I hope your website takes off big time. I wish you success.
Regards,
MuguMaster
PS. BTW, Grimmreaper your name is incorrectly spelt ... there is only one M in grim. Unless of course you are harvesting fairy tales, the authors of which were the Brothers Grimm =8^) Just thought I would mention it ...
http://mugu.info/ leading Nigerian 419 Advance Fee, Lottery and other internet Fraudsters up the garden path!
False assumptions and bias
I will not talk about your tirade against organized religion because this is not the forum to do it in, you can join the rest of the hate-site hicks to continue your slurs against faiths.
Obviously, the only person who has demonstrated those qualities are youself, going on on about how "evil" religion is and so on. My concentration is the Drupal site itself, the discussing the fact that we would like to be associated with hate sites lest one day our links be filled with the likes of KKK, Aryan Nationalsists and Anti-Semites United. If your allegation is that i fear hate groups, then you are right.
So you want to talk about prejudice, where exactly is my backyard? Just because I am against Islamaphobia therefore you make assumptions about my whereabouts and affiliations?
my fringe? Who would that be? since i don't know you, my lunatic fringe is probably you.
Goodness, talk about chip on the shoulder. You're obviously a frustrated individual if your anti-relegious rants needs to include my choice of username. I have my reasons to choose a unique and unusual nick.
Yet another sign of your prejudices and fears, i would now like to direct you to a KKK website for more insight about african american people and then you can continue your research about jewish people on an Anti-Semite website.
Typical of all fanatics you resort to misquoting and obfuscation
Typical of all fanatics you misquote me to obfuscate my position. Where did I say religion is evil? I called it obsolete, I said that religion seeks to make money check out the churches, mosques, temples and synagogues valuable properties on high priced land. And that religion foments war ... Northern Ireland, the Balkans, Middle-East, Kashmir ... need I list more? While people follow obsolete practices espoused by organised religion of any nature, people will fight in the name of their cause.
Obsolete, the last time I checked the dictionary, is not synonymous evil. If you cant read my comments with an open mind and without twisting my words and reading your own message into it, I dont know how you can ever view the Koran with an open mind.
Typical as well of fanatics, you do not address ANY of the comments or assertions that I made. You wont reply to my comments, because you know that I am right and you do not have any valid argument or supporting evidence that I am misguided. You post no links to support your position, and you are silent on the important issues I raise.
You started this off-topic thread because you want to censor a drupal site. I disagreed, as did the vast majority of posters. For my disagreeing with your views, you call me insulting names - I am labelled as ignorant and blind, AND that I am a member of a hate-group. I am not a member of the Know Islam community and further, I do not believe that the Know Islam community is a hate-group. I am particularly appalled at this unfounded allegation. If you think that everyone that disagrees with you belongs to a hate-group, go see a medical professional who can prescribe medication to relieve your rampant paranoia.
There are only 2 posts that disapprove of the Know Islam website. Yourself and Mike3k. Of those 2 posts, Mike3k has gone silent, yet, you continue your Jihad against Know Islam.
The reference to cleaning up your own backyard is a metaphorical phrase. It means that as a Muslim, you should start to protest against the needless slaughter of innocent civilians by fanatical Muslims in Iraq and other places. This does not mean that you are Iraqi or in Iraq. If you are in a free country, then start organising public protests ... a demonstration by Muslims worldwide who deplore this violence MIGHT just stop it from occuring.
You are right in one thing, due to your knowledge of Islam, and your vocal protestations for censoring Know Islam I assumed you are Muslim. Perhaps I am wrong. Are you? Is that why you are so strenuously advocating the disassociation of Know Islam.
Being a devout Muslim, you will not protest the suicide bombers, because you well know that the Koran REQUIRES you to kill every non-believer you come across. This is also why other Muslims do not protest in the streets against this violence against innocents. They will be called Kafir and they will be the target of violence for protesting against one of the basic and most often written tenets in the Koran. THAT is why the Muslim world does not protest even if the majority of peaceful Muslims disagree with the practice.
These people who are being killed by suicide bombers are not fighting! They are going to work, going home, going shopping, going to school in other words, going about their daily lives. They are not soldiers! They are not actively involved in a war. Surely the practice of the suicide bomber should be deplored by the wider Muslim community as being anti-Islamic.
Are you being deliberately obtuse or are you yet again, resorting to obfuscation?... your lunatic fringe refers as you well know - to the minority of fanatical Muslims that insist in killing innocent people by blowing themselves up on buses, outside schools/police stations/embassies in the name of their religion.
You cannot argue against my basic argument that the Wider Islamic community to do not publicly gather in demonstrations to denounce the suicide bombers. These fanatics are your lunatic fringe, if you are Muslim. Perhaps I could have worded it better, I am guilty of that. As far as being a lunatic, well, if disagreeing with the taking of innocent life is sign of lunacy, then I guess by your definition, I am proudly a lunatic.
I was trying to lighten the thread up and using some humour. You equate this to having a "chip on the shoulder". Perhaps your Koran prohibits humour as well ... I could not find evidence of this so, I will just assume that you are a humourless individual of your own volition, rather then being required to be humourless as a result of your creed.
Lighten up Grimmreaper ... that was an attempt at humour as well. Maybe it wasnt funny, but, dont take everything as a personal insult against yourself.
You are verging on the ridiculous here. I will NEVER agree that the KKK should be supported. If your initial post was about a KKK drupal based website, I would have supported your call for censorship. You know what the difference is between the KKK/Anti-Semite sites Grimmreaper? They BLATANTLY and OPENLY espouse their hatred. They dont try and hide, nor deny their hatred. Unlike the preachings of Mohammed. Who as you know practised himself the beheading of non-believers. Conveniently, if you dont know this, you can view the Faith Freedom website which lists many verses that you can cross reference against these independent online versions of the Koran.
And if you havent already realised, Islam of itself is both anti-Semitic and anti-not-Islamic - four fifths of our shared worlds population is not-Islamic. By your definition, pro-Islam drupal-based websites should be censored from the list as well, because Islam exhorts violence against the vast majority of the human population of our small planet.
Anyway, I no longer intend to post on this thread, being a fanatic, you refuse to see reason and logical argument ... say what you will ... I am entitled to my opinions and the Know Islam website is entitled to be promoted in the drupal list. I hope you eventually come to your senses. <=== that was sincere and not said with humour.
You are right in one respect ... I am biased ... and until you can provide me with evidence that Islam actively promotes peace and harmony, and when the wider Islamic community protests and demonstrates against the suicide bombers, I will remain so. This is free-thinking Grimmreaper, not some fanatic who is exhorted by some Imam to load their child up to blow up a bus of innocent passengers. Its time for you and the rest of the Muslim world to wake up!
Regards,
MuguMaster
http://mugu.info/ leading Nigerian 419 Advance Fee, Lottery and other internet Fraudsters up the garden path!
I think the site is great
Many of the things I read on your site apply to other old religions as well. I especially liked your article on sexuality http://www.knowislam.info/drupal/sexuality and will be linking to it from my site when I get around to writing an article on a similar topic. I couldn't read the whole site as it is vast, and I imagine that the material varies (especially if there are multiple authors), but as far as I know, it isn't illegal to hate Islam, or Christianity, or Judaism. That is much different than hating Muslims, Christians or Jews, and a far cry from condoning acts of violence or discrimination. Stand up to the criticism, kufr, it is undeserved.
Do not take this site off the Drupal sites list.
- Robert Douglass
-----
visit me at www.robshouse.net
It is a slippery slope
...to consider the right not to be offended as pre-emptive over the (human, civil and moral) right to free expression. I've not visited the site, but the fact that many, if not most, do not consider it hate speech I find very telling, and an indication that the site has at least some validity. Personally, I find the fact that this issue was brought here, rather than to the site's creator/administrator, is more offensive. But heck, like I said, I don't have a right not to be offended, so rock on.
--
mediagirl.org
Perhaps worry should be
Perhaps worry should be reserved for when the great majority of Drupal sites are used for hate mongering, though i've yet to see any 'hate sites' using Drupal yet.
Here's a quote, added just a little while ago, to the Library of Congress community site (using Drupal of course) I started; perhaps it is appropriate.
"I would apreciate you
Grim Reaper said: "I would apreciate you restricting your fear mongering to your own website and not here please."
I have as much right to have my website listed here as you have, or anyone else. Isn't it telling, that you want to silence me....
By the way, by posting about my site here, you have INCREASED my site's traffic! Thanks, I appreciate that.
Typical...
Typical case of getting what you resist.
- Robert Douglass
-----
visit me at www.robshouse.net
Congrats!
Kufr for the increased traffic. Hopefully some of it will be from the Middle East and might actually help to stop these daily lunatic suicide bombers from murdering innocent people who are just going about their daily business.
Thank you for educating me in the ways of Islam. I have spent the last two days exploring both pro and anti Islam websites. I think that there is a big movement away from Islam, and the other organised religions.
With any luck, a critical mass will occur ... and Islam, this violent, repressive and aggressive religion, built on blood, rape and slavery will be expunged and forgotten.
And Grimmreaper ... the same goes for Christianity and the other religions. I think they are all self serving and perpetuate greed, fear and loathing to the great detriment of humanity.
Regards
MuguMaster
http://mugu.info/ leading Nigerian 419 Advance Fee, Lottery and other internet Fraudsters up the garden path!
Thanks, Robert and Mugu! I
Thanks, Robert and Mugu! I like both of your sites too.
GrimmReaper, you are welcome to come discuss Islam at our forum if you like, and represent YOUR side of issues. We don't censor at Know Islam.
..................
http://knowislam.info/drupal/
I have as much right to have
Having your website listed aside (that is what the topic is discussing at first, until mugu started his tirade against all organized releigions), the reason i said that is due to your slanted remark about how apostates are killed in Islam. I know from personal experience that this is untrue and it is this narrowminded hate-mongering that drupal.org doesn't need. You can leave your slurs in your own website.
You can talk all you want, i just wouldn't like drupal.org to be associated with hate groups such as yours.
Maybe it isn't true where
Maybe it isn't true where YOU live or in your personal experience, but Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Iran, for example, have this as law. It IS part of Islamic Sharia law. In some Islamic countries family members can get away with killing an apostate with little or no penalty.
I'm glad you live in a nicer place and that this has not affected your personal life, but that does not mean it doesn't affect the lives of many others.
.................
http://knowislam.info/drupal/
Then
Then temper your words when in a more tolerant audience outside your own website. Just like the rest of your website, you make sweeping generalizations, you said in a matter of factedly that leaving islam means death, as if this is always true. There are pockets of extremism like many religions, but by saying this as if this is true everywhere, you fan the spread of Islamaphobia. Its this sort of perspective of just concentrating on the minority bad influence and claiming it to be the rule that is the attributes of hate groups.
Qur'an, Hadith and Sharia
Qur'an, Hadith and Sharia law still call for it, to say so isn't generalizing. If some choose not to practice it, that is DESPITE Islam.
Many Muslims are nice people, DESPITE Islam, no thanks to it. I don't say any different on my website.
..................
http://knowislam.info/drupal/
Yes, the majority hundreds
Yes, the majority hundreds of millions of muslims are all good law abiding citizens of the world despite being thought to do evil and kill. The entire majority of them beleive that doing evil is the right thing yet they are still living righteous and moral lives.
I have long learned that there is no reasoning with the skewed logic of people filled with anger and hate. So i'll leave it at this.
Good citizens ... dont allow murder
I think you made a mistake in your posting. I do not believe that you meant to write "the majority of Muslims believe that doing evil is the right thing ..." You can edit your post to correct it.
Where are the mass protests against the killing of innocents by suicide bombers by the "majority hundreds of millions of muslims"? Why are these hundreds of millions of people silent? why are these hundreds of millions NOT demonstrating against the slaughter of others?
There is no protest because the Koran encourages it. Simple! If they protest the killing of Kafirs then they are protesting against the Korans teachings. The silence against innocent loss of any human life is not really what a good law abiding citizen of the world would condone.
Muslims are taught that they are superior, non-believers are like cows. The Koran does not place any value in a human life, unless that human is a Muslim.
Protesting and demonstrating and trying to correct a wrong is what a good citizen does. I would NOT stand by and watch you be bashed or murdered on my street without trying to help you --- even if you are Muslim AND I dont agree with your religion.
I will do anything in my power to save you and have the hoodlums that have attacked you brought to justice. I will call the police, I will call an ambulance, I will try and make you comfortable until the Ambulance arrives. I will even go to court and give evidence so that the hoodlums are sent to gaol.
This I will do out of a sense of right, and because I value your right to a peaceful life as a fellow human being. We both have 23 chromosomes paired in a double helix of DNA. Your existence is no more valuable then mine, even if I am not a muslim. Jews also share 23 chromosomes ... as do Hinduist, Buddhist, Taoists, Confuscianists, Communists, Americans, Trade Unionists ... pick any "ist" if they come from Earth this statement will be true.
Yet the majority of the Muslim world stands by and lets non-Muslims be murdered without a whisper of protest. No headlines in the Muslim press ... not a peep. Please explain to me why the majority of Muslims are silent.
Is it just because as a non-believer, we are like "cows"? This is the same argument that the slave traders used against Africans. No one I know defends the practice of slavery ... its wrong.
So too is the murder of a human being. Yet, I see no evidence that the majority of muslims are doing anything to stop their own from committing murder. Why did the majority not stop the World Trade Center, Madrid and Bali bombers? These bombers had friends and relatives, yet, these vile and senseless atrocities were perpetrated. New attacks are being planned while we debate whether a site should be listed.
Why didnt their friends and relatives say "Murder is wrong", why didnt their friends and relatives make a phone call to the police to stop these bombers? Why dont the majority of Muslims protest murder? Can you please explain this to me?
Regards,
MuguMaster
http://mugu.info/ leading Nigerian 419 Advance Fee, Lottery and other internet Fraudsters up the garden path!
LOL seriously, reading your
LOL seriously, reading your posts are the biggest laugh i've had since ages, ranting and ravings, you're on par with the fundametalist fanatics yourself, good job. Oh yeah, i don't know who this mysterious devout muslim who needs to defend his brothers you're talking to, but it certainly isn't me. Like I said, don't make assumptions about my affiliations. I don't have to be muslim to dislike intolerance. My only interest in this discusion is wether drupal.org would like to be associated with hate sites. Thanks to your lunatic ravings, you've discredited yourself enough so we can get back at the topic at hand.
Now you can proceed with your 21 page essay of how "evil" Islam is ... :-D
This thread off topic
If the site uses Drupal, it belongs on the sites list. I was under the impression this was a content management system, not a theological or political association.
roflmao
Laughed out loud at your post jack. well said.
I reckon that it maybe an idea to have a drupal sites page with a voting/rating option where people can review and score drupal installations...not based on content, but on navigation, look-n-feel, clever ideas etc.
Would also be an un-embarrassing way of telling someone that their site is too painfull to look at. I notice it's common for people to post "have a look at my new drupal site" messages on here while they're still on the cusp of the enthusiasm-wave that comes with getting it up and runnning.
Anyway...thanks for making me lauigh out loud Jack...felt the same but couldn't have put it in a more direct and succint fashion.
Jason
You can lead a horse to drink,
but you can't make it water
Currently in Switzerland working as an Application Developer with UBS Investment Bank...using Drupal 7 and lots of swiss chocolate
Why not have both? I
Why not have both? I personally like being able to see the whole list, i've found some cool drupal sites that way. I'm not saying "pretty" drupal sites, because those could fit into a different category entirely.
For example, Native Instruments, creators of Audio synthesis software will have interviews with popular (or relatively so) people who use their products. Why not interview a site owner/moderator of a cool drupal site, say, every month? I doubt that in a month there could be a bunch of truly "pretty" sites. Besides, over time it would accumulate quite a few sites; and somethings are worth doing over long periods of time.
Mind you that I'm still in favor of having the whole durn list, so the whole community can go and find sites they like that use Drupal.
Two Issues - Explained
There are two clear issues here.
1. Drupal's usage
2. Drupal developer community's responsibility
1. Drupal is an open-source software. Anyone can use the code to do anything. None of the developers can do anything about it. Other than redistribution rules, the only "restriction" GPL imposes is the export restriction prevailing in the governing countries. GPL imposes no usage restriction.
[Explaining in simpler terms: if a GPL software program began in the United States, has substantial parts developed by American programmers, or funded by an American company, this software's sales, download, distribution is prohibited to countries where other US companies cannot export software, even non-GPLed, or other such "high technology." This means that someone in North Korea probably can't legally download Drupal.]
This also means that Drupal.org or developers here can't stop a "hate site" from using Drupal if they are in a non-embargoed country. GPL has no usage restriction. Anyone in most of Europe, North and South America can download a copy of Drupal and use it to promote whatever they fancy.
Theoretically, an "unbiased," "information" site run by the fictitious "International Child Abduction and Rape Organization" can potentially be set up running Drupal. They can post "news" of when a boatload of Eastern European children will be off-loaded in some seedy place in Italy or Germany purely classified as "information." They would leave the usage of such "news" and "information" up to the sick enthusiasts of child abduction and rape. People spending three or even ten hours on these "news" and "information" site probably might not find anything "objectionable" to them. The sick people who would like to know where they could find abducted children can potentially use that information to obtain such children. It all depends on the usage of the "information" and, of course, POV of the reader. This illustrative example, however, is not too far from the truth. In recent months, authorities in Italy and Germany have shut down large child trafficking rings that ran "unbiased" "information" sites for their networks on the internet. They have arrested many who ran these sites, as well as those who used the information from these sites to buy -- yes, purchase -- children to satisfy their sickness. No one can predict how "information" will be used by those with ill intent. Fortunately, none of these sites was running Drupal. But, theoretically, they could've.
2. Drupal developer community’s responsibility is to advance the cause of Drupal and not push personal agenda. Reading this thread, you can clearly see those who are pushing a personal agenda by Google-spamming -- unnecessarily linking to KnowIslam -- and posting long "discussions" on its contents and those who are serious about Drupal and Drupal.org from a community perspective.
I agree with Mathias and Boris. Drupal.org site should feature best-case sites. Sites with design and usage diversity that others can learn from. (Ecademy, etc.) Linking to all the Drupal sites would run the risk of inadvertently linking to sites that are not design or usage breakthroughs, but are controversial just based on their content. Linking to these sites might indicate a passive endorsement from Drupal.org and the Drupal community. If I read correctly, the original poster to this thread, Grimmreaper, brought our attention to the site being linked to Drupal and commented on the implied endorsement of Drupal community this gives to the site. Mike3K, Mathias, Boris correctly noticed this and pointed out that for the best of the community Drupal.org should feature exceptional sites as case studies. Others have completely missed the point and have run up a 40+-comment thread pushing their own agenda.
To sum up:
1. We, Drupal developer community, can't do anything about who uses Drupal for whatever reason so long as it is legal within their own local jurisdiction.
2. As the Drupal developer community, for the best interest of Drupal, we should change the way sites are linked from Drupal.org. The sites that are linked and showcased from Drupal.org should be innovative, design and implementation diverse and inspirations for others.
I have written several posts in this forum in response to new user questions about what they can do with Drupal. I think I can volunteer my time to write up some case studies of some cool Drupal sites as well. Maybe we can also add some "how-tos" for how new Drupal users can incorporate the innovations of other Drupal users into their sites.
Back to topic
Thank you for helping the thread get back on track.
Your ideas perfectly illustrates what I failed to say at first, I think Drupal.org needs to be selective in which sites they showcase as examples of the technical merits this application has, as a CMS system.
The simple ping list, not only could dissuade potential users by associating itself with sites of dubious political leanings, but really isn't useful in telling much about Drupal itself. A showcase, with a short commentary of an innovation in each particular site would be alot more userful.
A short note written about an example website that uses a particular feature of Drupal well would be alot more useful than a raw ping list that spits out some good, some mediocre websites.
Hmm, I thought this was about modifying the ping module?
Maybe modifying the ping module would fix a lot of this?
I don't know it the site list is directly attributable to the ping module but if anything is to be hated it is that list. It's is:
too long
not searchable
not paged that I can see
not categorized
not plausible if the number "Sites that use Drupal" reaches 200,000++
not in the right place (in the support section or handbook, should be in a sub-database)
not needed
---------------------------
info for Drupal installation
__________________________
Carl McDade
Information Technology Consult
Team Macromedia
www.hivemindz.com
Thank you for supporting freedom of speech
It was gratifying to find that this subject has been discussed thoroughly and note that so many are willing to defend free expression, regardless of whether or not they agree with the sentiments being expressed.
This is an important issue for me, and is actually part of the reason I'm using Drupal -- in a worst-case scenario, I can simply take my most recent back-up and move it just about anywhere. Not that this is exclusive to Drupal by any stretch, but it's also unquestionably the best of it's class.
I think it is fair and correct to disclaim that simply using Drupal does not constitute an endorsement by the creators or it's community of the content of that site, but neither can I see interfering with that site in any way unless, say, they are doing something blatantly illegal like distributing child pornography or photographs of matresses with the "do not remove" tag torn off.
I look at the Know Islam site and it disturbs me to think that it can be mistaken for a hate site, because if this is true, then what *I* say, myself, can be construed as "hate speech". And I'm just a geek with an attitude and an opinion, not an ideaologue sharpening a machete to kill Watusi-tutus with. I might be really dangerous, swung with sufficient force by my ankles.
Yes, religeous fundamentalism blows fat, slimy buckets, and Drupal should be available to those who want to criticize it. It should also be available to those who want to defend and support it.
Drupal should be a medium for distributing and presenting content. Not an arbiter of what that content should be.
And it is deeply gratifying to know that it's fan base supports it as the former.
Apropos
Is there an ignore feature for Drupal nodes?
not yet
there isn't yet, but this node certainly deserves it ... drupal's architecture doesn't make this easy though.
commenting disabled
If anyone knows of a site which violates Dutch law and is listed in the Drupal Sites directory, please send email to info@drupal.org. Include detailed information about why listing of this site violates Dutch law. Your request will be evaluated by the editors of this site.
I've disabled commenting on this node, since it has strayed too far from the purpose of this site.