Quote from another thread --
You say We get this a lot. Over and over. I agree with you completely. I read many, many posts from newbies like myself crying out in the wilderness....
I am new to this arena; in fact, my first post was last week. But I've monitored the forums on and off for a year or so. It seems that many newbie requests for help are left to die on the vine. Obviously not all, but I've seen a fair share of questions sitting there unanswered.
It's understandable, to a large degree. When I look at my recent post -- and compare it to others in the same thread -- the fact that a friend of mine is the only one who responded isn't surprising, really. Why waste time addressing the needs of somebody who doesn't have a clue? Let him do another few months of homework and post again, or figure it out himself "like I did."
I've also read a number of back-and-forth battles between at least semi-clueless non-programmers, like me, and hardcore coders, some of whom see us as simply selfish "takers" who want instant gratification. Some here have tried to bridge those gaps.
But it occurred to me today that it might be useful to have a section of the forum set aside for newbies to post their questions, rend their garments, gnash their teeth, pity themselves, cry in their beer, etc.
What's the advantage? Well, you'd at least have the community of other newbies there, and, as we all crawl and read through the labyrinthine documentation in terribly inefficient ways, we might be able to share what we find in a more focussed way with others also at the starting gate. It might actually help some of us move forward more quickly by applying a more comprehensive newbie-hive-mind to certain basic problems. I can dream, can't I?
The real advantage is that us shame-based newcomers could post in this new arena with less fear that we'll be ignored by everyone -- or slip through the cracks between the more important questions.
Those kind-hearted, knowledgeable members who actually want to help the ignorant and blind would have a place to go when they're feeling generous.
And those who don't like us being here at all could avoid the thread entirely and be thankful that the usual waters are less muddy.
I don't know... it's just a thought from another ignorant, impatient, frustrated newcomer to Drupal. Of course, this is probably the wrong place to post it.... =o)
I originally placed this in the middle of a now dormant thread about similar frustrations and efforts to make things better. I've deleted that old reply and made this its own post in the hopes that I can get some feedback on this idea -- whether positive or negative.
Thanks....
Comments
Newbies are welcome here too
To correct you a little, many of us like to answer newbie questions because that is the way to get more people to use Drupal and hopefully help others once they are also knowledgeable. I do not think that a separate forum is necessary. I apologise that someone did not find your post in good time. If your Drupal question still needs answers, please let me know and I will assist you through the process.
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iDonny Productions: Accessibility & Web Standards-based Design & Devt., CMS & Web Branding
In my opinion a newbie section is a good idea
A newbie section would be a good idea if it means that noobs are more comfortable requesting help, and so do it more often, and learn more quickly, and are then able to help each other and eventually cast off their noob identity...
Also the Post installation support section of the forum is just huge - it's very easy for support requests to get lost there ...
gpk
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www.gelst.com
gpk
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www.alexoria.co.uk
Newbie sections? who will answer the questions?
If we have a distinct rookie-only sections, that means that knowledgeable people will steer clear since they are not newbies, unless they feel like they have a moment to go and help... Who will answer the questions in that section? Will the newbies be condemned to struggle to find solutions amongst themselves?
It might sound like a comforting idea and good for self esteem because anyone will always find someone that knows less than him/her, and newbies will not intimidated by having to watch pros discuss abstract and complex issues, but it will not help the rookies find solutions to their questions, and quickly get Drupal up and running.
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iDonny Productions: Web CMS Design, Development & Web Standards
I think your proposal would
I think your proposal would perpetuate the problem and further divide the community rather than solve the underlying problem. Creating a separate forum would likely split everyone's attention and lower the quality and helpfulness of the responses everywhere.
One real solution would be for more knowledgeable people answering posts when they have time. Another might be having posting guidelines shown when creating forum posts (seen at the top of the page at http://drupal.org/node/add/forum). Perhaps you could advocate for other new admins by posting a feature request for forum posting guidelines at the drupal.org infrastructure forum. I wouldn't mind seeing questions like "Is this post about a specific module or theme? Please post to that project's issue queue" or "Have you read the Troubleshooting FAQ? Please check it before you post" there.
A great deal of posts that I see don't have the critical information that's needed for knowledgeable people to answer. Sometimes posts are in the wrong category (such as posting in "Drupal 4.5 or later") or are put in the forum when they should probably be in a project's issue queue.
On the other hand, I see at least one post a week where a new admin has disabled the login block or put the site in maintenance mode and subsequently cannot log in. I understand the panic that comes with a problem like that, but the way to fix that particular problem is covered in the http://drupal.org/Troubleshooting-FAQ, which is only two clicks away from any page.
It's not easy helping those who can't help themselves.
Drupal is incredibly complex. Practicing Drupal is a bit like practicing Zen, where once one knows what Zen is, Zen changes. Or rather, the more one learns about Drupal, that learning can hint at what you don't know. We're all newbies in one way or another and it doesn't always show as teeth-gnashing or self-pitying. Thanks for your post.
Newbie Forums - Great Idea!
Have been hanging around this site for the better part of two years and I think that having a newbie section would mean that I could browse questions that are likely to be within my capacity to not only comprehend, but also answer.
I've also posted without being answered here. On the forums like PHPBuilder where I've spent a good deal of time, I get a 100% response rate if I post in the newbie section, where it's somewhat less in other sections. (But it may be that PHPBuilder is a more supportive community overall.)
As to not helping those who can't help themselves, we all arrive with different skillsets. Just figuring out this website is an effort in itself and the culture is heavily coder-dominant. You people pay lip service to making it easier for non-coders to come to the party, but by saying something like "It's not easy helping those who can't help themselves", helps reinforce the closed culture, not open it. You need many doorways in, not just the trial-by-fire-hardest-ones that you successfully traversed. People learn differently.
(I have two words for you: Bezier handles.)
When I arrived here, I had no clue how you guys solve problems with Drupal. If you've already arrived with troubleshooting or coding resources - you know how to figure things out. What you feel is 'not spoon feeding' feels like sadistic arrogance on this side of understanding the behemoth.
I believe that others may feel differently than you do, Christefano, and that there may be people out there who truly do want others to learn Drupal. This would be a way that mid-level people might find a way to contribute and strengthen their capacities as well as another way for newbies to grow. If you don't want a Newbie section, you don't have to visit it.
Hedging
I kind of agree with christefano in not needing a "newbie" forum; it is kind of a "tough love" thing here (try something, trip, break your nose, brush yourself off, "okay, that was bad", go ask a question). I don't know if handling people with "kid gloves" is any help, and I have not personally seen open flaming (yet!). Questions do get lost in the shuffle, but posters do have the option to "bump" their posts to keep it at the top of the tracker lists (see Tips for posting to the Drupal forums).
I do agree that a problem with ANY kind of help system is terminology; how do you figure what to ask, and what "magic words" do I have to put in to make it a good question (the posting tips actually answer a part of that)?
And yes, the Troubleshooting-FAQ is a good place to start; someone had to go through the same gauntlet and was nice enough to document.
A question; when does one ever "graduate" from the "newbie" stage and start to play outside? And, would the graduates "pay it forward" and help the new "newbies"? Hmmm, have to go and find Dries' chart again (in his blog) on when you "kick ass."
newbie
just another drupal newbie using this forum to see how the forum works - i guess comments are the "replies" to the orginal thread but a reply is actually to a comment - i think. the next two posts should answer that.
reply to my "reply"
nested? yes. answered my question. sorry to bother everyone.
Extremely steep learning curve
I love that earlier comment about the "Bezier Handles". But more seriously I think the option of a newbies forum should be given serious consideration. The learning curve of drupal is extremely steep and it is not as though there are any publications that you can buy so us "newbies" have very little choice other than to try pick your brains. The handbooks are very good but cover very little once you are up and running. Tough love does work to a degree but it is also very disheartening to the recipient. I have only posted one question and two people have very kindly responded. It then dawned on me that they were answering a different question to what I had been asking. It was my fault due to bad terminology I think I tried everyones patience; if it had been in a newbies forum I think I would have been given a little more leeway. After all you have no idea unless we tell you whether we are newbies or more experienced but being particularly dense. I rephrased my question and bumped it twice but as yet still to receive an answer which to me suggests that I am now regarded as an annoying "newbie" who has had more than his fair share of attention.
Strangers are just friends we don't know.
why i am resurrecting an old
why i am resurrecting an old thread:
i find drupal fascinating. used to dabble with joomla, now i find myself fiddling incessantly with a test site on wamp, for the sole prupose of learning how it works.
when i dont get it though, and that is pretty often, i try the old search and post on the forums. occasionally i get good help, sometimes nil. i would love to help reduce the 'no response' rate. but, and this is sad, after a year of trawling through the forums, i havent helped much. mostly because i dont really feel i know much. i feel though that my two cents would probably sit well in a newbies forum. yes, i know, i could read every new post on the chance that it may finally be up my alley, but it usually isnt, and i feel a newbies forum would be more comfortable.
and, to be honest, if i have questions to ask, i'd probably feel more comfortable asking them there too, cause i was finally getting somewhere with D5, but now again i'm back to being a D6 newbie, and soon i'll be a D7 newbie.
gimme a newbies forum please.
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Always be nice to people on the way up; because you'll meet the same people on the way down.
Wilson Mizner (1876 - 1933)
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Always be nice to people on the way up; because you'll meet the same people on the way down.
Wilson Mizner (1876 - 1933)
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Being one who spends lots of time in the forums assisting users imo the entire drupal forum is a newbie forum by default. I would have to say nearly 9 of every 10 posts start out with "im a newbie" or have it announced at some point in the thread. Perhaps back before the developer forums were deprecated that wasn't true, but it certainly is now. Experts tend to get assistance via other methods (seems to be irc and mailing lists).
Besides, i'm not really sure what would differentiate the newbie forum from what we have now. When it comes to posters, newbies post in the current forums all time. If you're talking about something to assist newbies in feeling comfortable responding to other newbies i say-- dive right in the water's fine. If you think you have an answer post it.
So what exactly would be the purpose of a newbie forum?
As for increasing response rate-- i can tell you what gets my attention and elicits a reply:
Subjects like "HEPL ME?!?!?!??! URGENT?!??!??!" will get unceremoniously skipped-- without even clicking on the topic to see if it's a legit problem. Subjects like: "Views Argument Problem" or "CCK content without body?" are good.
Posts like "mysql (xampp) is not running on my system. what is the way out pls." (that's the entire body from a post a saw this morning) will likewise be instantly skipped. If you can't be bothered to expend any effort to explain your problem then I can't be bothered to help. And btw, this has nothing to do with whether or not english is your first language. I've responded to posts where the question was unintelligible but it was clear the poster was at least trying.
This is a personal pet peeve of mine. The "what module for..." questions are usually instantly self-serviceable with a couple of obvious keywords in the "Search downloads" block. I know drupal can be tricky to search (for instance searching with "hierarchy" which will not find the "hierarchical select" module until page 4) but I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about things like "paypal" or "workflow" or other obvious keywords that do work and it's clear the OP didn't even bother to try before posting. I recently saw a post where the OP bumped his post 5 times and waited over 30 days for an answer found instantly by entering the most obvious keywords into the "Search downloads" box. Likewise with error messages-- if i can copy and paste the error message into the d.o. search box or a module's issue queue and find a solution so can the OP. Also, when it comes to problems with specific modules the issues queue can be invaluable-- they should always be checked prior to posting a forum thread related to a specific module.
In short, the guidelines at http://drupal.org/forum-posting work pretty well but basically it's quite simple-- don't expect forum readers to put more effort into solving your problem than you are willing to. It's not rocket science.
And sometimes it may just be that no one may know the answer to your problem or have the time to devote to it just then-- it's just the luck of the draw. But I can say first hand, I've had more success on d.o. then any other open source community. The issues queues on d.o. are an amazing resource.
Just an fyi-- I'm not directing this specifically at docwilmot but i'm responding here for other newbies that may stumble across this post since the forum guidelines link on the forums page seems to be ignored.
Apologies for re-opening this
Apologies for re-opening this thread. It came up in a Google search I made for a Drupal newbie forum. Just because someone is a newbie with Drupal doesn't mean they aren't knowlegable in other areas. 25 years ago I was a Sys Prog/Applications Eng with DEC, subsequently designing and writing an accounting suite for the aviation industry in C++/SQL - 30kloc's. Followed by lots of "playing" with the likes of Mambo/Joomla and Wordpress.
Sometimes, for a newbie, being able to ask what may appear to be the simplest of questions can save literally days of trial and effort. Being relatively new to Linux as well - just built my first Centos 5.5 webserver, I asked about Drupal 7 's need for the PHP DOM extension as I couldn't find a PHP 2.3.4 RPM that enables DOM. A question which was totally ignored. So I dumped 7 off my machine, and gave Drupal a thumbs-down for support.
Along with 4 thick books on Centos I have 3 on Drupal 6 sitting on the floor at the side of my desk, having read all the Drupal books cover-to-cover and worked through all their "case studies". Learnt a lot from the O'Reilly "Using Drupal" book. But like so many it left a great deal unexplained. For instance Ch 9 "Event Management" has helped with setting up a site for a touring social golf group I belong to. The only non-repeating variable field is the date and hit-off time. Would like to put that into the node name field - no idea how, or to switch off all the extraneous fields when non-computer literate members are adding an event, again no idea. May be able to use a View to not show everything from the Input Format to Publishing Options blurb.
Many many years ago when working with DECUS - DEC User Society, it was bludgeoned into us that just because we knew what we were talking about didn't mean the person listening did. So I would suggest yes - a newbie area wouldn't be bad idea, either that or recognition that the newbie of today may well be a module contributor of tomorrow. Just reading through the responses on the forum to various requests for help can't say I've found them to be particularly supportive of those with limited knowledge.
PS. a kloc is a thousand lines of code. Not heard much these days.
Patience for community support
There is varied opinion and experiences as outlined above. My suggestion is that we should all have a little more patience with community support. Being that we are all volunteers here, there is no promise that a question will get answered within a given amount of time. There are situations in which my questions have been answered, or that I have answered a question within 5 minutes of posting, and in other situations where it has taken weeks for someone to address the question.
It is entirely possible for you to post a question and have it take weeks before someone has time and motivation to answer your question. That said, there is no reason to assume that having a secluded region just for newbies will improve anything - in my opinion, it will just make it worse.
If anyone has unanswered questions, please contact me and I will do my best to answer it to enable you to complete your implementation reasonably (no fee for helping new users - community support)