After working with Drupal for almost 3 years, I really need to vent somewhere how Drupal sucks. For a backgrounder, I'm more of a sysadmin type rather than a developer or a designer.
Just to be upfront, I clearly chose Drupal for a reason and I believe that Drupal is still the right choice, I love its strengths and it's clearly a leader in many respects. But at the same time, what I want to address are things that Drupal really sucks at doing and it really shouldn't have to be. And I'm not talking about UX at all.
Image support: Time and again I get complaints about how we can't do stuff with images like other sites (e.g. WordPress) do. Drupal 6 does not have image handling in core and I ended up spending a long time figuring out how to do images in a futureproof way. Drupal 7 has image handling in core and that's wonderful, but still, image handling has been taken such a back seat for so long that it really make Drupal lack behind the competition. I tested dozen of image gallery modules and most of them are like a throw back to 2005: no AJAX, no lightbox, no fancy slideshow. If I need anchor image for my node type, I have to define everything from scratch. Not that it's difficult, it's the fact that there's no uniform way to do it and such feature is pretty much expected of any CMS.
Too many modules: This is supposed to be Drupal's strength and it still is for the most part. But it's coming to a point where:
- There are so many modules that I have to test dozens of very similar ones to figure out what's best for my project and still come up short.
- The Drupal philosophy creates a scenario where it's very common that it requires several modules together to do one simple thing, which adds even more complexity. Pretty soon I find myself using 20, 30 or even 50 modules
- It's very difficult to know whether a module will be maintained. With so many modules installed, the risk of relying on a module that might be left unmaintained become increasingly higher, and so is the risk of a minor update (on core or modules) that will break something.
- It's understandable that Drupal wants to provide a framework and doesn't try to make any decision for you, but it's becoming so extreme that Drupal core provides so little of what's expect of a modern CMS and it that so much testing and configuration just to do those things that it's getting very frustrating.
- Many important, widely used modules (Views, Panels, etc.) aren't part of core, when other modules will make it more of a priority to work with them if they were in core. E.g. to this day I still have i18n issues with Views.
- If these modules can't be rolled into core, it really helps if there's a "preferred" status for those modules. E.g. Every user expects a WYSIWYG editor, Drupal has many WYSIWYG modules yet all of them has shortcomings. I'm all for choices, but it's all too common that there are too many modules to do similar things with not one of them that stands out.
- I don't think I'm unique in that I'd prefer a widely supported standout module even if it means I have to live with some limitations.
Over-Flexibility: Some modules (e.g. Views and Panels) literally have a hundred config options for one page. It's simply nuts. I use Display Suite to do node layout and that module adds 6-7 layout pages for each content type. The LightBox2 module adds dozens of formatters to the edit form even if you only have maybe 3-4 imagecache presets.
I'm all for flexibility, it's why I choose Drupal in the first place. But not every little thing needs to be configurable and some things are actually simpler to specify in a config file rather than the web UI. At some point the extreme flexibility becomes pure madness and completely unmanageable.
Obviously Rails shouldn't be compared to Drupal directly, but after using Rails for some projects I've come to appreciate Rails especially for its "convention over configuration" principle. Some people might disagree, but I think there's a huge value in providing sensible defaults and defining a uniform way of doing things that's based on best practices with no required configuration. It not only saves a lot of time, it leverages the community's knowledge and expriences, and developers have some standard practices to focus on improving.
Visual appeal: Most Drupal module developers are not as visually-oriented as WordPress developers, so most Drupal image/media/visual modules look relatively basic out-of-the-box. Sure the look is customizable using CSS, but it's one another unnecessary complexity added to a string of others. And no matter how often I stress the different strengths of Drupal and WordPress to my users, what Drupal is good at is always behind the scene and no average user would notice, while most of WordPress strength is in visual presentation and what the average user cares the most.
All these issues add up to the following very common scenario for me. Let's use photo gallery/slideshow for instance:
- first I have to define the implementation: image nodes vs imagefield vs file upload to a specific directory? gallery type or no gallery type? Views or no Views? (this is where a well defined best practice is badly needed)
- Then I have to test dozen of modules to see which one fits my needs. Turns out, most of them are either so behind the curve visually that I can't use them, or they plain break and doesn't work (e.g. most Views Slideshow plugins).
- After much testing it seems a Views-driven display with something like jCarousel works best, using Views means introducing a lot of config options to set just to get it to show anything at all, not to mention that I'll still have to theme the thing in CSS
- After all the trouble I had basically decided that I'd just integrate a javascript slideshow library myself
- Even the roll-my-own route has problems: Many newer javascript slideshows use jQuery 1.4+ but Drupal 6 uses 1.2.x (or 1.3.x with jquery_udpate)
At this point I'm basically throwing my hands up screaming why can't a slideshow module just work out-of-the-box? Why Drupal can't just bundle a photo gallery/slideshow? Or at least have one or 2 endorsed gallery/slideshow modules that meet the most basic expectations today?
Now rinse-and-repeat for content rotor/carousel. Rinse-and-repeat again for WYSIWYG editor.
I know most of you hate people comparing Drupal with Rails and WordPress. I don't believe they are comparable in any way, but both WordPress and Rails are widely used and create certain expectation of what a CMS or website can do and should do and how easy it should be. Time and again I ask myself why something so easy to do in WordPress or Rails is so needlessly complex and tedious in Drupal? Or that I get so frustrated with Drupal with all its configuration headaches that I ask myself why I didn't roll my own CMS using Rails or Django in the first place.
I still believe that Drupal is the right CMS for my projects: it's still one of the better CMSes for multilingual sites and one of the most flexible general CMSes out there. I love Drush. I love taxonomy. I love CCK. I think Views and Panels are very powerful indeed and there's nothing else out there like them.
But it comes to a point that after trying countless modules and all the configuration madness just to get something relatively simple to work at all becomes such a burden that it becomes no easier than rolling your own CMS in Rails or Django, while my users keep bugging me about how easy and pretty-pretty it is on WordPress.
And I haven't even gotten into the development-deployment integration issue.
Maybe I simply prefer Rails and my users just prefer WordPress and we are all expecting Drupal to be more like WordPress or Rails.
Anyways, I'm just babbling at this point. I should shut up.
Comments
I completely and utterly
I completely and utterly agree.... with your last sentence.
Just kidding. I do agree with the points you make, though I wouldn't say "Drupal sucks", as the good far outweighs the bad. (Though admittedly I am new to Drupal).
I think drupal is too open
I think drupal is too open source.. yeah open source is good and it works well with the linux boys because the get paid bucket loads to do what they do. A lot of the drupal startups struggle just to get by. Wordpress has a economic eco system which feeds the development and pushs the guys to created stable better looking modules.
This is not the case with drupal , there is no system in place for a free-market to drive the technology and i think this is a problem.
and for the last time WHERE THE F&*K ARE THE DONATE BUTTONS ON DRUPAL.ORG MODULE PAGES!!! this should be default ! even if some developer does set one up it should then redirect to the drupal association.
Hi Bukem, thanks for the
Hi Bukem, thanks for the reply.
What do you mean by too open source? Do you mean that there's not enough paid incentives? Development too decentralized?
Its just to free .. its uber
Its just to free .. its uber hippy. For example Merlinofchaos should not have to work for a company , he should be able to be full time drupal contributor and live very comfortably .. the more he works on views and panels the better they get, and this community should be his soul funder. But that is not the case. How do i even donate to views .. I have never made a site without it and it has made me a bit of cash , yet i dont even know how i can say thanks to this oke for what he has done besides a friendly email.
There is just no finacial system in place to drive this technology and i think that is a problem. It dont have to be a greedy drive but one where if you are good people pay and so you get better and those that want to do drupal full time only need to get really good at what they do , instead of struggling just to get by, and hopefully become a b!tch for one of the big boy drupal companies.
They should seriously have a good look at wordpress's model, not only the slick UX.
Are you just advocating for
Are you just advocating for donation or a comprehensive business model?
Donation button for core and contrib modules seems like a good idea. But I hope I'm not too dismissive in saying that most people don't donate at all, just ask any other open source projects that rely on donation. It'll be just a gesture. If I'm not mistaken WP themes/plugins are either free or paid, no obvious donation option for either core or plugins.
I should point out that the economics of WP and Drupal are quite different. Not sure how the typical WP dev makes a living, but seems like most big Drupal projects are developed by big Drupal consultants, so it seems there's plenty of financial incentives already for those situations, substantially better incentives than donations or paid modules. Drupal world has a much much bigger consultancy market to fund it, not sure how WP compares in terms of that. Smaller Drupal modules will probably benefit from project-specific donations more though.
Not sure what Merlinofchaos' specific situation is, but maybe you should run it by him first and ask him whether he thinks donation help him much or if there's anything else that might help him better. But I think funding him full-time via donations seems rather optimistic.
I'm just trying to have a clear idea of your motivations. Seems like to want to contribute and you think what you can give is donation rather than code, and I'm sure there are tons of people like you. Kinda got me thinking I should donate as well.
Well there could be a
Well there could be a comprehensive business model, but i find there are a lot of very useful modules that just become left to "die" either because the developer is too busy on other things or has left the drupal community. I have tried to contact a few to get options on improving the module with some sort of payment but they never really work out .. not sure why.
I personally think donations would work if it was clearer would worl, I think donations are an interesting driving model for any business model, Like natural selection it selects the best based on the communities need. Take a look at piecemaker.. awesome module , really makes the slider into something more then just the normal standard thing, but its only in flash, Now I know that if there was maybe a way to have a posting for this to become jquery ( i have seen the paid for jquery, but its outside of drupal ) and if there where enough users wanting this then ...maybe the developers could set a price .. all those wanting the feature could chip in .. wait a minute .. this sounds like kickstarter. So yeah .. kickstarter build into drupal.org would awesome.
I also think there should be a module store. I would be more then willing to pay for a stable module for a news letter system or other. I reckon drupal.org should have it so that the module developers can release a normal version and then have a paid for version with a bit more and maybe even have the module skinned already so the user can pop it into the site with is nicely layed out already with a nice .css template to work off of. I think this would help .
Also maybe some sort of voting system. There are so many modules that it is hard to search for modules. if the searches could be based on votes ( I know if already has "in use" but this can be deceiving - cause I could find a really good module but have no use for it in all my current sites ) to filter it out a bit .. and if it gets a lot of negative votes ( which will really help , I have install a few modules that just break the site completely ) then it has to go back to the developer for a major review ... or something like that.
I dont know .. I think there should be some sort of quality control and I know the coding standards help with this but maybe if the quality control was community based might help
Is there a limitation to
Is there a limitation to create a paid Drupal module? I don't think there should be a problem to create and promote premium modules. You can create free ones and use them to promote the free similar to how Wordpress devs do.
_
There's no limitation regarding charging-- it just doesn't make much business sense. drupal modules must be GPL so anyone you sell it to is free to give it away for free. It makes more sense to charge for development services than code distribution.
_
Don't be a Help Vampire - read and abide the forum guidelines.
If you find my assistance useful, please pay it forward to your fellow drupalers.
Wordpress plugins are also
Wordpress plugins are also GPL but this doesn't stop people from making business with them. The code itself isn't business - the business is in the combination of code, branding, support, and marketing. Besides that the original developer usually can provide the best support for their plugin, updates, etc.
Of course introducing other license than GPL would be nice.
Chipin
There's a Chipin here: http://drupal.org/project/views . Now you know how to donate. :)
-----
Shell Multimedia - My sporadically updated mostly Drupal blog.
You have some points
There are 3 or 4 critical points in the actual Drupal situation from my point of view:
- Memory usage of Drupal 7:
The actual requirements are high and sometimes you can't afford them. 128M once were a high standard configuration, Now i see that sometimes they are not enough. Higher requirements are often not affordable for clients and thus for developers.
So i studied Drupal7 API tried to upgrade my knowledge and i found myself stuck on memory. I decided to go back to Drupal 6 for the aforementioned project and then i remembered why i wanted to upgrade so bad:
- Jquery 1.3.2 is not an option
This is the other huge issue. Drupal 6 is almost dying on the inability to upgrade this library. Really, is there some way to improve this? Also Drupal 7 is packed with an older version of the same library and with the same problem of update. I think that opposed to his huge flexibility this is a big hindrance
- Over-flexibility:
Too many things to do. In too many different ways. I like it.
Really, but things to do became a lot more and the ways to do them grew consequentially. Don't know what's the solution though.
That said i love Drupal, and i'd like to know if the things i pointed out are true or are the results of my ignorance about some new/old Drupal features.
Memory usage of Drupal
Memory usage of Drupal 7
Can't help you there. Don't think the core dev can improve it substantially either unless there's a basic flaw in the memory handling. as anyone can tell you optimization takes time away from coding features and stuff. That said, d& might be at a stage where they can spend more time on optimization now.
You might want to look into your own optimization though, or whether a certain module is being a memory hog.
Jquery 1.3.2 is not an option
You mean you can't use Jquery 1.3.2 on D7? I did manage to mix JQuery 1.3.2 and JQuery 1.4.x on D6. You can probably add Jquery 1.3.2 to D7 and make them co-exist. There are some help on how to mix 2 versions (or more) of Jquery on the same page. Try asking Google.
Over-flexibility
I love it too, and most of the time it's great. But occasionally there can be a dozen modules that does the same thing but none of them meet even modern expectations. In those cases some direction and focus of resources are really needed I think.
Better explanation
Jquery 1.3.2 is not an option
Blame on my poor explanation.
Drupal 6 + jQuery update -> jquery 1.3.2
It's a bit problematic that the backend relies so much on an old version of jQuery and that there is no way to update without breaking something, mostly in backend
Drupal 7 + jQuery update-> jQuery 1.5 and that's ok right now.
But if updating is difficult as in Drupal 6 in a year or so Drupal won't be able to perform as expected from a front-end point of view.
So my 2 cents suggestion would be to think about a version of Drupal that can work without jquery. Maybe a version that works better with jquery and is some less performant without, but something that allows the real-time upgrade of the library.
Thank you for the advice about mixing and let cohesist 2 jQuery versions. I managed to mix 2 different versions but it seems i have still problems (mostly ie related) on the module i wanted to build.
For memory issues use VPS
VPS is the way to go with Drupal if you are not using shared hosting.
You can get a 1Gb VPS for $70 - $100 a year hunt around.
Now where is that affiliate link of mine?
I agree
I agree with about everything goofrider said and I think he did a good job at identifying the central issues. I can relate to what he says about having to try out dozens of different modules that do the same thing to see which one might work. And I like his idea that even if certain modules didn't make it into core they could still be identified as "preferred" and identified as the direction Drupal is going to help us poor users from having to pick through all the inferior alternatives.
I've been a software developer for 30+ years (C, Ada, X Windows/Motif, C#, you name it) and I left all that to focus on Drupal because the one thing I still enjoy and am interested in after many years in IT is the internet. I picked Drupal because it seemed like the best option and there are days I really like it, for example the Rules module is amazing - it's like visual programming in the truest sense, but there are many days, too many days where it leaves me cursing and frustrated and googling things like "drupal sucks"!
I think someone should make a site that lists the best modules/methodologies for solving all the common tasks that web site developers face. Where they could identify the modules that represent the future direction of Drupal. For a particular task they could also list other modules that offer a solution to the problem even if they aren't the preferred solution and the reasons one might choose them. I realize there are sites that offer some of this already but I'm not sure how much. I also realize that getting agreement on the best modules for a task is like getting agreement on religion. I know, I know, I could make that site but I'm still too busy trying to figure out how Drupal works!
I like having options. I also
I like having options. I also think it's good that people are wanting to do the same thing differently. Sometimes I see modules that no longer get maintained because there is another, similar one that is accepted as the better one. I think this can only a be a good thing.
too many options not always a good thing IMO
With other technologies I've worked with, e.g. .Net, there are usually a set of tools provided to solve the common problems the technology is designed to deal with. So your learning curve is going through the set of tools it provides and figuring out how to use them and we all know that with almost all technologies the learning curve is fairly steep. With Drupal you are faced with the added complication of having multiple choices of tools at each problem you are trying to solve so now the learning curve becomes exponential. You have to figure out which of these five different tools is the one to go with and will it work with the other contributed modules and theme I've chosen and will it be supported in the future. And maybe for this project and set of contributed modules and theme the solution works well but then your next project requires a different theme or contributed module which doesn't play nice with the tool you chose before.
I'm hoping I'll get to the place where I'm familiar enough with the popular and well maintained contributed modules to be able to build sites quickly and efficiently but my concern is that with all these variables, e.g. different contributed modules taking different approaches and changing their approaches with different releases that it will always be like shifting sands and that I'll have to keep fighting the same battles over and over again...
But I'm glad you enjoy the options!
I have a suggestion
Goofrider, I vehemently agree with everything you've said; I've been using Drupal for 3 years now, and have experienced all of the same frustrations. The only thing I don't really get is your antipathy towards the opensource movement, but that's immaterial to what I would like to suggest (and perhaps someone has already suggested it, I don't know; but I feel very strongly that we should get in touch and come up with a Best Practices Drupal... I've waited (and waded) for hours and hours through the same stuff all of us have, so wh not create a basic Drush-esque - in terms of knowledge and application, not module integration and automation - project page containing the best-current configurations for these (INFURIATINGLY recurring yet-so-simple-as-to-send-me-back-to-hand-coding-php....) problems?
I know what you're thinking: "Why the hell would I want to write tutorials when therre are already... blah blah blah"... And that's just the point: For years I've been saving complex configuration setups (which - and here's a point that I think you and everyone kind of missed: DON'T MAKE SENSE EVEN WHEN YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING... lol... in fact, knowing what you're doing in D7 is almost as much a handicap as NOT knowing it in the first place)... Anyway... What I am proposing isn't so radical as a fork in Drupal, yet not so top-down as "prefferred" modules (which would be awesome)... Nor is it a "tutorial" (because God knows all of them are instantly out of date, all screencast, and seem to be made by speedtalkers who love to explain 10 minutes of the utlimate basics before getting to the point - bless their souls, btw; otherwise I would never have been able to figure out views/wysiwyg integration back in drupal 6)... What I want to do is establish a BEST PRACTICES paradigm that outlines the best modules and methods in drupal to achieve these otherwise simple tasks that seem to always become so frigging complex.
Let me know if you're in. Otherwise, I'll just do it myself (and have been doing it myself for years now: there's no reason that creating simple galleries and slideshows using views and taxonomies should be so complicated for the end user after so many years... BUT, course, I understand Drupals BRILLIANCE!!!... still... sooooooo many menus... sooooooooo many modules.... soooooo many problems... ... u;ltimatel;y, you go away from drupal to do some real coding for another project and all of sudden it's like a chemistry exam)... Anyway. Cheers, and even if you guys think that this lurker is a lunatic, I'd like to thank you for raising some excrutiatingly valid points (except for the anti opensource stuff, and maybe the theme's stuff - cause there's not much that can be done to simplify that... but blah...)
OK. That's my comment, and I'm... open for suggestions...
Drupal / image handling / photo galleries
Ouch. I just spent about 9 months learning Drupal (7) and building a decent looking site for a number of contributors. It was a long and sometimes tedious process, but I am happy with the results. I agree that the configuration options and number of similar modules are often staggering.
Now I have gotten to the last part of my site - my own section. This will be primarily image galleries and I feel like I have been spinning my wheels for four or five weeks. I don't want to create dozens and dozens of nodes for each gallery, and I want to have comprehensive captions that I can write out in paragraphs, not just an alt or title tag. There are very few options for this. I did find some options in this for Views, but then it's figuring out which ones are still, or will be supported, and which tutorial deals with the current version that's available.
I found one module that I like a lot. It produces adaptive slideshows, but has no real caption fields - except for one available as a patch. I've spent at least six hours over several weeks trying to apply a supplied patch to that module and finally have to give up or I will never have anything to show. I just cannot get it to work, even though I have applied a patch to a module in the past.
But I'm not a developer and not being overly critical (I hope), but I just wish some of these basic things were in place. I decided to use Drupal because I recognized what a brilliant system it is, but at the moment, I just feel overwhelmed trying to find what I hoped would be a basic and straightforward option that won't look like something created ten or fifteen years ago. It doesn't even need to be that sophisticated - I'm happy to style it myself, but I just need some basic things, like: separate captions for each image, multiple images in one place (node), navigation and responsiveness.
And, I did check out other options before getting here, namely: Wordpress, Joomla and Concrete 5. With the possible exception of Concrete 5, I didn't see anything much better there, though I only spent a few weeks on each.
Anyway, as I head into another weekend where I'm trying to accomplish this, thanks for letting me vent. And also, thanks to the many talented Drupal developers and designers who got me this far with: Core, Omega, Views, Adaptive Images, Context and Display Suite among others and the many bloggers who helped me zero in on them.
The Developer community are too focused on scratching itches.
Drupal doesn't suck, just too many Drupal developers scratching their itches.
To be fair it set out to be a "community plumbing" tool, not a blogging tool or a CMS, and now it is being labelled a CMF, content management framework. One also has to wonder how much its direction and priorities are driven by the commercial interests of its founders and leaders.
It has simply lost is way as an end user tool, and not enough attention is devoted to install profiles for end users, admins and developers. Module developers do not want to get burned out by having to rewrite their modules for the next version when they have hardly finished or optimized the current one. End users can't upgrade because the modules they need are not available, and may even been abandoned, then at EOL there are no more security upgrades.
Most of its issues can be fixed by "standard" or "official" install profiles for the most common use cases. There is not enough information on profiles on the Drupal.org itself. I guess Acquia Commons and Drupal Gardens fit the needs of end users, the Open XXXX profiles, for NGOs, companies etc.
The default install profile(s) are not good enough. Who knows that as an admin you've got to have stuff like Administation Menu, Coffee, Sweaver etc, well configured WYSIWYG, Backup and Migrate etc, etc. Most of this stuff should be present in the main Drupal 6/7 installations, rather than having a new user of any computer skill level having to learn about them the hard way.
Drupal will be hard to recommend if the use case install profiles are not good enough or tested enough, and more importantly the leaders don't realize the need for LTS releases. Consolidation and evolution of existing features is more important for end users especially individuals and SMEs. The simple fact that is the Drupal developer community have proven to big companies and organizations that they can deliver, and that want they don't have, they also can developer as there is clearly the depth and breadth to rise to any challenge. They have solidified their reputations and can ignore the small guys now. D8 will further their gains in that space.
What matters is whether some official or unoffical groups can settle down to deliver good install profiles for the D7 versions
I wrote these blog articles some some time ago,
http://devblog.brahmancreations.com/content/back-to-drupal-humbly-tailly....
http://devblog.brahmancreations.com/content/do-php-and-drupal-have-a-bri... and my jury is still out.
Thanks for this...
I have been working with Drupal for over 6 and a half years and this is one of the more eloquent and level-headed conversations I've read about the problems that are emerging with Drupal. I'll keep this short. I won't restate what has been said already. I agree with almost everything that has been said and the basic point -- that there are so many options that almost, but not quite, fit the bill.
Before I add to the discussion, I would say that I am indebted to many people in the Drupal community, particularly at the beginning, 2006-2008, when it seemed to have fewer options, fewer people and a whole lot of interest in building this CMS into something better.
I'd describe things this way: The user is missing. Things are not designed for usability or even with a sense of how users might perfer things. This lack is far more noticeable now than 4 years ago because design on the Web has improved so. And I don't see that that's happened with Drupal. If anything things have gotten more complicated, as the original poster pointed out, by having to join so many modules to do related tasks.
I would add that there is no real solution for audio. And what about the stampede to cell phones and apps? And what of the continual problem with Flash, made worse by Apple's refusal, to allow it on their operating system.
And sadly I do feel that the originators, the leaders of this CMS, have drifted away to commercial ventures. No longer do I feel there is a vigorous and rigorous community on drupal.org hence there are more and more problems from incompatible modules, or updated versions that don't mesh well with other modules, or more and more abandonment of modules. Case in point, an early Drupal developer started in on the publish / subscribe modules.. which could have tremendous use, but nothing in a year and a half. ... Organic Archive -- great idea that really is important to the success of organic groups (how do you smoothly retire an organic group, anyway?) ... audiorecorder field -- great idea but not quite there, yet nothing has happened in quite some time. ... Kaltura, which was touted and then turned out to be a disaster, but then what? is it now OK? certainly doesn't look like it in my recent tests ... I could go on and on. But three years ago, I felt there was kind of a group that policed code, made sure things worked properly, that standards were kept to. Now, not as sure.
So everyone has to earn a living. I feel grateful and lucky that so many fine coders have helped me (a non-coder) accomplish things for kids that I couldn't have otherwise. But for several years, there has been a loss of direction.
An answer, perhaps we should form a group. Perhaps we should discuss what we do, how we use Drupal and share what we've learned all these years. But even as I think about that, two things come rushing headon -- my own lack of time and the fact that Drupal 6, which I use extensively, is on the way out. And I really should be in 7 -- despite that it's a memory hog -- and holy mackerel that means I have to rebuild everything because no way will I ever do another upgrade; going from 4 to 5 was bad enough, but 5 to 6 took several years off my life.
I fear that this, too, has turned rantish. My apologies. Let me again thank everyone in this community who have helped me and my project (s). I run a small nonprofit dedicated to helping students write and teachers instruct better and I've gotten help from all over the world, via Drupal. And I do believe the spirit is still alive. But the size, the popularity, has made the community -- the modules, the choices, the policing -- a whole lot more complicated and less organized. And as a result, it has drifted further away from precision and usability.
If anyone has any solutions, suggestions for what we might do to help, I'm all ears.
g
geoff gevalt
http://www.youngwritersproject.org
http://www.ywpschools.net
I agree that Rails makes a
I agree that Rails makes a few things easier than Drupal. Drupal also makes some stuff easier. For example, one place that Drupal beats Rails BY FAR is multi-valued fields. In Drupal, you change a popup menu. In Rails, you add a new model and connect the two together.
Paradigm
This is a very interesting debate. Briefly I am just learning Drupal after completing a year of college learning asp.net and MSSQL.
This debate about streamlining a clarifying a best practises system to reduce the confusion at the burgeoning complexity of many competing and similar modules and their dependencies sounds very similar to the Perl situation which they have been attempting to resolve.
However this is the blessing and the curse of open source unfortunately as a project becomes more popular more users arrive and more modules and development occur. This initially seems good until the development becomes divergent and every developer wants to scratch their own itch and instead of the projects progressing in orders of magnitude it splits in groups who each have to try and maintain interest and progression.
So anyway on the example people left Perl because of its CPAN dilemma so many modules all relying on others and lack of maintainers for some dying modules. Where did they go? Python or Ruby and off these languages went and Django and Rails were born. But now with the steam of interest the ecosystems explode with itch developers and what happens in Python development diverges from Django and it now also has Web2py, Pylons, Pyramid, Grok, flask, bottle and many more Ruby has Rails, Sinatra and many more. So when will they reach tipping point there are already articles of people leaving(outgrowing) rails.
Imagine the progress Django could make if these development efforts were more focussed.
In Perl's case they are discussing a more streamlined core thereby reducing the complexity and as a group removing the dependancies and complexities from their most used modules(class mop etc). There is also a proposed plan to distribute a core set, a must have distribution of the most used and best developed and maintained modules that would suit the needs of 80% of people.
Maybe Drupal if it is having this issue could approach it similarly. Just a thought?
Rails?
You lost me when you said "Rails". I understand your comparison to Wordpress, Drupal and Wordpress are different beasts but they're both CMS.
I worked with Rails for over a year and I hated every second of it. Then I found Drupal and I saw the light, I never looked back. I understand your "issues" with Drupal but comparing it to Rails which is more like a framework makes no sense at all.
In my personal experience everything about Rails was time-taking, difficult, undocumented, almost impossible to get help/answers, plugins were a pain sometimes just getting a page to show up or a link to work was a problem.
If you like Rails then just stick to that.
I love Drupal but it
I love Drupal but it infuriates me too sometimes.
I can however make pretty awesome things with fairly slim knowledge of php. The problem I have is knowing what modules do what when it comes to a fresh site.
The myriad of (similar) modules to me is a real down point. And what about uploading an image, simple? Of course not! IMCE with bridge, Media 1x, Media 2x.... which one? And if you go for Media 2x, you'll need another module or 10 just to make module 1 work. This dependency has always been a mystery to me.
Other than a few annoying things though, it's superb!
Sam.
At last! I'm not alone!
It's been wonderful to read these posts from much more experienced users who are just as frustrated as I am. I've spend weeks of time and about $200 in teaching materials trying to learn Drupal and have finally decided to abandon it. (I've got some books at great prices!) I'm no great coder but I can write pretty complicated sites in PHP and MySQL and they work far faster than Drupal sites. Drupal is hard to sell to a client when you show them how to edit a site and they realize how slow it is. I've been playing with Wordpress and find it wonderfully easy and intuitive. I honestly can't see why anybody uses Drupal at all.
Just curious. You've been a
Just curious. You've been a Drupal member for over 2 years. Why have you only just discovered Wordpress now?
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People use Drupal because it fits their needs. If it doesn't fit yours, then use Wordpress. Ranting because a tool doesn't meet your needs is pointless. Use what works for you. Simple as that.
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Shell Multimedia - My sporadically updated mostly Drupal blog.
I also see you had a huge
@omigosh I also see you had a huge rant about how horrible Drupal is in February, 2011 saying:
Yet you're still here. I'm not sure what you're wanting people here to tell you? Just don't use it.
A few things that might help improve matters...
I agree with a lot of points you mention - maybe because we both look at the challenge from a sysadmin perspective?
Indeed, the lack of support for working with images in a decent manner astounds me. By now anybody writing any kind of CMS, should know that the days of the BBS are over.
The amount of modules available for any given functionality can be very intimidating and frustrating, it involves a lot of reading, trying, testing, dismissing, go to the next one. (oh, wow this one looks good, oh... it conflicts with something in core or another module or only works in Firefox version ancient). At the same time it is great that there are so many ways to get things done!
Hold on, I´m getting to a couple of things that actually might help to improve matters.
What? Solution-think? Yes, I like to look at this from a sysadmin/project-mmt and end-user point of view.
1 - Create a strict set of rules that every module author/maintainer has to follow.
Rules like (in no particular order):
Not adhering to these rules? Stick your module where the sun doesn´t shine.
2 - Clean up - & restructure - Drupal.org.
It is really not that hard, though it does require a lot of work and dedication, as well as people getting off their high horses and learning how not to feel personally offended when their creations get criticized.
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Say goodbye to the currently ginormous contributed module community-- one of THE distinguishing characteristics of the drupal community btw.
I just love it when I see those that don't volunteer their time advocating for rules for those that do, lol. Total non-starter.
There's probably more valid points upon which to comment, but unfortunately that statement alone causes me to skip the rest of your post.
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Don't be a Help Vampire - read and abide the forum guidelines.
If you find my assistance useful, please pay it forward to your fellow drupalers.
Your last line proves my
Your last line proves my remark about high horses.
Besides "...don't volunteer their time " ??? You know nothing about me or what I do or not do, alright? So, keep your remarks to the point, please!
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My remarks are to the point and those on high horses should be careful themselves lest they fall.
You reinforced my point perfectly-- it doesn't matter what else you do-- as you don't maintain modules on drupal.org you don't get to tell those of us who do how to do it. period. Drupal is not a democracy-- it's a meritocracy.
If you want to have a say in how it's done, I suggest you jump in and maintain some modules and show us poor dolts how to do it correctly. Otherwise, posts like this are just noise that go nowhere.
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Don't be a Help Vampire - read and abide the forum guidelines.
If you find my assistance useful, please pay it forward to your fellow drupalers.
Besides "...don't volunteer
To be fair, the suggestions of those who are contributing to the community are likely to get more traction, not least because the experience of contributing gives useful insights. So it is of course unfair to say you are not contributing to Drupal (though under your present screen name your contributions may be under the radar as far as drupal.org is concerned). But it is perhaps fair, or at least useful, to ask you to 'blow your own trumpet' a little and mention your contribution, since you are (understandably) unhappy with the suggestion that you are not giving your time? We all know there is plenty wrong with Drupal as well as a lot right with it.
Digit Professionals