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By gpcreative on
Just wanted to let everyone in the Drupal Community know about how I got screwed from a member of the drupal community.
I came to your forum looking for a Drupal Programmer to put up a website that I designed. Anthony Licari wrote me back. We talked on the phone and a little while later he said he was ready to build my site. He asked me to send him the PSD design files and a down payment of $300 dollars.
I sent him the files and a $300 dollar check and except for one email over two weeks ago saying he would have the site ready that weekend, I have never heard from him again. He won't return emails and I've noticed his own drupal site at anthonylicari.com has been down for two weeks.
He lives in Columbus, Nebraska and he has a second site at http://www.skylabservices.com/
His behavior brings down the entire Drupal community and any help anyone can give me would be greatly appreciated!
thread locked: This issue seems to be getting worked out between the parties involved offsite
Comments
The Community
Please note that the Drupal community is a heterogeneous collection of people from around the world.
There is no common feature or trait other than using Drupal.
Since this is just a collection of human beings, you will find the usual mix that comes with any group of humans that is sufficiently large.
Neither the Drupal community nor the Drupal association can do anything in such matters.
Your only option is your local courts and/or local law enforcement.
--
Drupal development and customization: 2bits.com
Personal: Baheyeldin.com
--
Drupal performance tuning and optimization, hosting, development, and consulting: 2bits.com, Inc. and Twitter at: @2bits
Personal blog: Ba
I know...
I know Kbahey, but my only recourse is to let the community know so that no one else will be screwed over from Anthony Licari.
May be something wrong with
May be something wrong with this guy, may be he has been ill with meningitis.
That's not my job to figure
That's not my job to figure out. He had no problem replying to me till he cashed my check.
A cheap lesson to learn
You probably don't fall in this category, but a lot of people come to the forum looking for cheap developers. They want first class work done at penury prices (some even want it for free). There are unfortunately also some cash desperate "developers" who will be happy to give them all a bum steer - part a fool from his money. Moral: even if you're buying cheap try and get a recommendation. As much as possible I always get a client to recommend me for a job posting on this forum instead of haggling in competition with desperadoes - this is the path of respect. I have personally been many times trusted with $thousands deposits on single jobs (without even a single phone call) because the contract was conceived in mutual respect. Often the people who get burnt are those looking to buy or sell services at ridiculous prices.
When seeking a developer, my advice is that you use this as a guide : always assume a minimum rate of $45 per hour for a good developer, and then estimate your project cost from number of hours you think it would take to complete. That way, you will be able to determine if you are being quoted unrealistic prices, and also lower the risk of losing your money. If you can't afford what your estimate tells you - the project is probably not worth pursuing anyway.
www.websesame.com
I second that
Too many people on this forum are either seeking something for nothing, or do not understand the true cost of development. I've responded to many posts on this forum offering my services as a drupal developer. When I give a quote for a few thousand dollars, based on a rate of $50/hr, I never hear back from the people. I don't think most of them are actually serious about the projects, at least not serious enough to actually pay what it would take to get them done. One guy actually thought that he could pay someone a small fee to implement a youtube clone in drupal, and then just sit back while he made money off his new site. I haven't had much success so far with my consulting services because I can't compete with the low bids that that some of those teenage drupal hackers, or Indian companies offer. Be careful though because you get what you pay for. I've seen a lot of bad sites designed by people who didn't know what they were doing, and worst case, they might run off with your money. Yes, $50/hr might be a lot of money for some people, but compared to what the firm I work for charges, it's a bargain.
Stop Payment anyone?!
Dude... Seriously.. Duh. I've talked to this Anthony guy personally and I did a google search on his name because I liked the content on his sites. After talking with him a lot and seeing his personal myspace profile, I can tell he's been in some rough spots with money. He's had to move around alot, and he's still trying to figure his life out. I'm not offering this as a defense, but just something for you to think about. Again you could have done a Stop Payment on the check. I'm only 19 and I know that...
Payment issues
sorry to hear this... In our case it is almost the reverse i.e - clients (some of them fortune 1000 and large Drupal sites) ones signing contracts and not paying in time sometimes even paying after 90 days after many reminders.
My advise is to try and work with the current situation with you rdeveloper and give it at least 6 to 8 months before you go online like this. When you go online against someone you probably should have sufficient ground to back yourself up( which I am sure you would have) for any defamation litigations.
If you work patiently you'll get good results. Patience is the key here.
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Roshan Shah
http://www.bpocanada.com
T : 604-630-4292
Vancouver, Canada
Skype/GoogleTalk/Yahoo : bpocanada
I really can't believe what
I really can't believe what I'm reading. Please stop defending a guy who stole money from a client. This guy disappeared with my $300 deposit. The site was simple, at least that's what he said, and I was going to pay him more than a thousand for a website that he said he could put up in a few days.
Patience is still what I believe in
My views were just what I do follow. Many people responding here - to my knowledge - are developers and truely believe in Drupal Community and support.
You do have to check the credentials. Best thing is to go with a reputed Drupal firm or a very reputed developer which would be hard to get unless you have top dollars.
Action of one developer can't reflect what others have to offer and have been offering to clients. Likewise action of clients who pay late does not mean that you stop working with them.
What I suggested is that before taking things on internet - try and work for some time to get through it. You never know what the other person may be going through. He might have some emergency situation ( still I think he should have informed you about it).
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Roshan Shah
T : 604-630-4292
Vancouver, Canada
Skype/GoogleTalk/Yahoo : bpocanada
Patience?
Why should he be patient when some stupid developer took his money and didn't deliver the goods on time? In the real world, deadlines exist, and no good developer would tell the client to just be patient if he could not meet them. And to wait 6-8 months? That can be an eternity in the business world, where turnaround time can be as little as two weeks. The behavior of the developer in this case is simply unacceptable.
@bpocanada, 6-8 months? You
@bpocanada, 6-8 months? You have to be kidding! If a client doesn't pay on time, I don't release the changes or project. Once you start doing this it wont' take long for you to get the reputation that you "don't need to be paid" right away. I can't put food on the table like that.
@gpcreative, First, I am sorry this happened. As there are many good and trustworthy developers on drupal.org. Second, thanks for telling the community about this user.
Everyone is hinting too getting references and checking out the developers work. Personally, I don't trust what someone says they did. Anyone can say "I did this site and that site". If you feel that is the case ask if you can contact the developers client.
In the future, use an escrow service if you feel uneasy. Always give a detailed scope and ask the service provider to layout what tasks / items will be under milestone 1, 2 and so on. Also, don't be afraid to ask for the agreement terms to be modified or the payment schedule to fit your needs. As a developer I ask for 50% upfront then divide the remaining 50% by the number of milestones or phases + rollout + training. Sometimes the client wants to pay 35% and change the rest as well. I am flexible (under certain conditions) as most developers would be.
I would suggest to always read the agreement thoroughly and get it written or modified to where charges can be pursued in your state or the developers - if neccessary. If you request this the developer will know you are serious about legality concerns.
===
Elvis McNeely
Drupal services: http://www.elvisblogs.org/drupal
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All of comments seem to revolve around the idea that the complaint being posted here is 100% true and correct.
To avoid this type of situation one should hire a well known, reputable developer, consultant or firm from the http://drupal.org/drupal-services page. If nothing else, seek out a developer who lives in your city where you can then take legal action easily.
You could always try small claims court, in the county where the check was cashed and the person resides. Seek out an attorney to handle such a matter, though I fear a lawyers retainer would cost you 10x the amount you've already allegedly lost. May also be totally fruitless if you didn't sign any legally binding contract. Which all responsible developers/clients should do.
In my opinion the actions of one is not at all indicative or otherwise related to the community as a whole as the OP is trying to put forth. To judge the entire community based on one person is, or to feel as though what this one person did casts a shadow on the community at large is irrational.
Whomever the alleged perpetrator may have been did not even leave a response on the original thread by the OP asking for paid services see: http://drupal.org/node/147334 (I note: that some reputable individuals did respond and were overlooked.)
I propose this thread be locked as nothing good can come from it at this point.
Best idea of the day
Yes, I think it should be locked. Inasmuch as nobody was there when the agreement was reached, and nobody knows the terms of the agreement and if they have been truly breached. also, nobody knows the whereabout of the defendant or even if he's dead (but thanks for letting us know in case he wakes up again)
Problem is that you made this sound like the guy (his name does sound very mafia) came with you gun in hand. Definitely you must have beyond reasonable doubt been sure at the onset that Lucari could deliver before parting with your money and that is why patience is being suggested here - We are not defending deceit. Otherwise there is really nothing else anyone here can do to help if what you are seeking is retrieval of your money.
www.websesame.com
I feel like I'm in the land
I feel like I'm in the land of oz. I did find him from this site. He sent me a private message as did most of the people who wanted the job. He had two personal drupal websites that he used to put up drupal tutorials. He also had a bunch of links to drupal sites that he supposedly created. And you guys know as well as me that it is impossible to follow up on everything. I will never get my money back and i know that. I just made this post to warn anyone else that he might try and scam. And finally, to defend someone that hasn't even come here to defend himself (unless one of you are really him) is really frightening. I never meant this post to cast any bad light on this drupal community but at this it's now hard not to. I think it's time for wordpress.
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Even in the land of Oz people are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law and in front of 12 of their peers.
yes and? This site is public. That being said, there are no credentials needed to sign up nor private message anyone. I don't even see where you've given a drupal.org screenname ? or an email address ?
While I agree, that one can't follow up on "Everything" one can at least follow up, on sites that others state they create. Did you email the owners of the sites to ask who their developer was? Just because someone puts out a portfolio certainly doesn't mean that the portfolio is their own. The skylab site is merely a theme from the downloads area, with a few modules, hardly considered professional IMO.
Did you check said users, tracker ? how active are they in the community ? If inactive, this would have been a tip off. IMO.
If you were in a hurry to get a site created and you made the choice to cut corners, then i am afraid, the moral of this story is haste makes waste.
Really?
quoted from your first post
His behavior reflects on him, certainly not on the community as a whole. Just as your behavior reflects on you and my behavior on myself.
What I don't understand is that you've chosen no recourse. If you have a case, you have avenues open to you to get your money back. Yet... what you've chosen to do is post a forum post on drupal.org. If only world leaders would be so passive when seemingly wronged : )
I on behalf of the "lollipop gang" wish you the best of luck with your endeavors regardless of OSS you choose to use.
And don't forget?¿?
Follow the yellow brick road : )
sorry to hear what happend
and thanks for posting details on the forum. it'll help others make informed decisions while
choosing a drupal services firm/developer.
yashesh bhatia
ps. like others have mentioned .. its a sad incident but it certainly does not generalize the overall community
Yashesh Bhatia
Anthony Licari Stole Money from me too
Just so you know. I experienced the same thing. He seemed to do some work then just sort of quit on it. Stopped returning emails. Wanted money etc... Who knows. I just moved on.
=-=
The individual from this discussion, anthonylicari never materialized to defend himself against the accusations and is the developer of the following themes:
http://drupal.org/project/enlight
http://drupal.org/project/hyperglass
Apology
I want to apologize to the individuals that feel wronged in this post and more so to the Drupal community.
It never was nor ever will be my intention to take something from someone without their consent and I specifically apologize to the two individuals who felt I did so. I don't want to contend or make excuses for why this happened. I can only ask that upon return that they can forgive what happened in hope that we can move on.
Additionally I want to add that I love being a part of this community, providing themes, information, and helping out others when it's appropriate. I have found that I'm okay at those things but not very good at business and what has been learned and the expectations of myself is to make a promise to the community and more importantly to myself that this will never happen again.
I am in contact with both parties to resolve our differences.
Sincerely,
Anthony Licari
An Apology is a Start
Do you have any intention of making good on the money you took? I would say either a full refund or an attempt to make payment arrangements would be order. If you are dead broke, at a minimum and offer to do some work might help.
A list of some of the Drupal sites I have designed and/or developed can be viewed at motioncity.com
Where u can send my refund
Anthony, if you are truly sorry and would like to return my $300 please send it via paypal to: shop at thedogfiles dot com and please make it a personal transaction so it doesn't take a fee. If you do this, i'll post here that you did the right thing so everyone will know. Thanks!
hope always make sense to not believe on one man company
HI,
Its a clear case of disdvantage of one man company.
becuse anything went wrong with that person then whole system collapse, so it is always good to go for a small medium Outsourcing company instead of one man company, if you are looking for cheap & quality product., though for that you may have to have a referal verification of client.
Major disadvantage of one man company is they dont have any back up resource to take care of any disaster. sometime these type of thing happens even with out any ill intention but due to some other commitment of one man company.
its a lesson.
Hope it will make sense for our forum member.
San
Interfinet technologies
(An Drupal specialised company)
My dos centavos...
There is a lot of back and forth here about what constitutes a fair rate for developers. I agree that some people want stellar code for low prices... but who wouldn't? Anyone would want the best value for their money - that's just business. Similarly, developers what to charge a fair amount for their time and skills. All good on both fronts. That's just how commerce works.
However, I think it's the responsibility of the developer (as the skilled professional in the equation) to be honest about what they can deliver beforehand so that buyers can make an informed decision. It's also the responsibility of the developer to ask the right questions and make good faith estimate and to explain upfront any additional, intangible costs that might be involved. They also must be honest about their abilities. Saying one is a master of say theming and CSS when one really does't have much experience is, well, fraud and totally indefensible. Unfortunately, a lot of developers will say anything to get a gig - and that's where a large percentage of the problems arise from a buyer's perspective.
If a developer says "this will cost x, but depending upon modifications and intangibles it could cost x + y(hours) on top of that, that's all good. One knows what they are getting into beforehand and can say yes or no before committing. There is a meeting of the minds. That's good business.
It's not fair to give someone a lowball quote and then do a hard upsell later. I've certainly seen a lot of that. It just gives developers in general a bad name because of a few rotten apples and creates an atmosphere of mistrust. Developers should be at the vanguard of establishing fair and transparent business practices as it benefits everyone and call out their fellow developers that are lowering the ethical bar. Honor among thieves is, well, for thieves. Not the bright professions such as the majority of the folks here.
To put it into perspective, everyone has anxiety about taking their car to the mechanic - that they might end up dealing with a con artist. Well, that's nothing compared to coding. For the typical layperson in need of web development services, coding is like taking your car to the mechanic for a major engine rebuild every single day - and without a Chilton manual for pricing guidelines. It's a real leap of faith. Lots of room for disputes and bad blood, over-billed hours and hours billed for sub-par work that a developer wasn't qualified to do in the first place. As a buyer myself, it always feels like navigating my way around a pitch black room where someone rearranges the furniture every five minutes when I start a new collaboration. Some folks will charge $150 USD per hour, but their work might not turn out to be as good as a guy that charges $25. There really is no safe harbor. You really need to go through the motions... resumes, references, samples, contracts, telephone interviews, etc. if there is serious money involved. A lot of developers like to remain semi-anonymous. I'd say these folks should be avoided.
I agree that this has nothing to do with Drupal and that most developers here are honest folks. But the ones who aren't. Ufff. They really have the ability to screw unsuspecting and trusting clients royally and that is just plain wrong.
The good work of developers is under-appreciated, I agree, and increased competition does drive down prices so I understand a skilled developer's innate dislike for chiselers and cheap charlies. One does get what they pay for. But their ire should also be directed to dodgy coders in equal force. I'd put my money on that immoral developers that undercut their counterparts by lying about their experience and abilities and misquoting clients either intentionally or unintentionally are more than 50% of the problem.
The bottom line is that once there is a meeting of the minds and an agreement has been made, the rest is really irrelevant whatever the hourly rate high or low.
I really feel for this guy. $300 is chump change, sure, but that doesn't make it any less immoral for the developer to disappear with the fellow's money.
gpcreative, there are remedies. You can use escrow.com or an escrow type service like GAF or ODesk whose business model thrives on mutual mistrust between buyers ans sellers and provides some measure of safeguard. They have built in arbitration mechanisms that can solve objective disputes (though not subjective differences of opinion). You should also consider jurisdiction. If some guy in country X located on the other side of the world screws you, well, not a lot you can do about it. I'd think it is worth paying a premium for someone close to home and the legal accountability that comes with it.
In your case, I would send a sternly worded note to Mr. Anthony Licari and let him know that you will turn him over to a collection agent if he doesn't cough up the work or refund the money. There are tons of lawyer-run freelance collection agencies that will take your debt on a contingency and will both menace him and if the funds are not returned, report him to all three credit bureaus so that next time Mr. Licari wants to rent an apartment, get a credit card, open a bank account, get a cell phone plan, apply for a mortgage, et al., he'll have something extra to contend with for the next 7 years.
It doesn't matter if there is a signed agreement or not. Exchanged emails and an cashed check is likely a legally binding contract. A signed piece of paper is a document that may or may not be a contract, a contract in the legal sense of the term is as I mentioned a meeting of the minds with such elements as "consideration".
It's not as easy to be a fly by night operator in the information age. If Mr. Licari is having some sort of nervous breakdown, an occupational hazard it seems for coders, cut him some slack but try to get an agreement about how to work things out before you go nuclear on him.
Those are my 2 cents... hope it adds a bit to the discussion.
It appears an apology isn't good enough
Well, I was refraining from doing this as it's going to divide people in half and end up being a back and forth immature "nuh uh" but seeing as Kenn is posting his replies here rather than to my email and individuals of the community are continuing to reply to someone who made emotional accusations and others who are accepting that because I apologized then I feel I should probably give a reply.
The original post for a website to be made was May 28th. This post was made on September 16th. Now if you follow what was said originally I talked on the phone with him, took money and never talked to him again.
We were ready to start the site within two weeks, I continued to ask him if he's ready to go and he said yes and then didn't reply for two or three weeks. This occurred again in July and again in August. It's difficult to live off of $300 for 4 months and keep in mind he hasn't paid me anything and he doesn't until Sept. All summer long I was discussing the site with this guy, setting aside time because he was ready to go and not taking other projects only to have him disappear without contact.
Ultimately I had to take on other projects because it seemed like it was falling through. Out of nowhere late August he gets in touch with me and says he's ready to go that he had been sick or something and wasn't able to reply to me. He expected me to drop everything I had going on and start his site.
This is what my apology was towards, that I told him I could do it when really my hands were more than tied at the moment not only with web projects.
Do you really think I spent four months of talking to this guy and setting aside other projects just to take $300? That's barely enough money to make it to Mexico in gas.
The bottom line is that he and I had developed a relationship over the course of the summer, of not getting anything done, of putting things off. He disappeared multiple times only to contact me later and apologize. Then I'm gone for week or so, come back and notice this and immediately contact him.
I explained to him what was going on, that I'd still like to do the site even at a lower rate because I felt bad that he felt wronged and he absolutely refused everything I offered him. Which made me wonder if he ever wanted a site or even had the full money for the site but those are only wonders and I will not speculate here.
What about the money? Deposit - A sum of money given as security for an item acquired for temporary use. He wasted so much of my time that summer, there were other jobs that I said I couldn't do because I was doing his. That's what a deposit is for, in case he ends up wasting my time and doesn't come through and so as I said, I offered to build his site even at a lower rate but was completely hesitant on returning the money because that's what it was, a deposit. I made that clear to him that's what the money was before he sent it to me.
He's right, his site was easy so why would I take $300 when I could make another $900 in a couple of weeks?
You see people can post anything on the internet, even emotionally hurt people and everyone seems to take it as truth. Yes it's completely my fault for taking on the work when I was already more than busy and even more so not communicating my plans with him as it seemed to fall through the cracks. I have apologized for that and hopefully learned from it.
I think the title of this post is entirely unfair. It's unfortunate because when you search for me on Google this post appears and I've had more than several comments in the real life about this post. It's unfair because this entire post is an unsubstantiated straw man. It never will be substantiated because all you're ever going to hear is his thoughts which are his perceptions and my thoughts which are mine but the post title remains set as a fact.
I was trying to do the right thing and respect him by not adding fuel to the fire and posting on here. Crowd's can be fickle and they want a show. So there you go, now you can all argue about who was more right.
I appreciate the moral judgments but occam's razor is rarely correct.
As for me, I'm returning his deposit and moving on.
=-=
Just for clairity and since I was directed to this comment.
The above user anthonylicari when referring to "Kenn", he's referring the d.o user gpcreative who shares the same name as myself but are not one in the same person.