question about the paypal button on drupal.org

>instead relying on people remembering your nickname, which is "drupal" in reverse (that alone is a reason for not trusting you, as you seem to prefer anonymity)

Now really, that is kind of ridiculous to say Steven, do I prefer anonymity?? I don't feel like having to plug Donorge with each single time my nick is mentioned so I chose lapurd. Why should I have to have my nick as Donorge? I prefer anonymity?? I prefer my own nickname :) that's all!

>"A free donation network" - What does tying in to a network offer me as a donor?
You can make more strategic donations, donate to several of your interests at once. Use one payment method, have not visit a couple of sites just in order to donate. You can see from how the network works (bottom-up) why organizations can be trusted to donate to. You can see instantly and very effectivly what other interest aer related to yours. The problem is presentation on Donorge, I fullhardly agree with you.

>What does it offer me as a project manager?
You can show your donors who you relate to, or auto donate to your relations. You allow donors to make it easier to donate to both your and related interests. It's free as in beer, it is about supporting _your_ interests trough the visibility of relations.

>And why should I want to centralize my processing through your site, which I may not trust?
Nobody is forcing you Steven. At some point someone is processing something for you, no way ever around that! It's open source and trying it's best to reflect trust by being transparent, you can trace each step. I really have no idea how any donation network could ever gain your trust if there is a paranoia inside someone about a system.

>Starting your documentation from the point of view of the people rather than the features will massively improve your chances of sign-ups I think.

Thanks for the hint. I really try hard and I have not much money so I have limeted time as well. I have done all this by myself so far, so I can only ask for understanding on that. I have many things to for Donorge and can only do 1 thing at a time, that's the problem so far, not functionality because it is all automated :)

>Furthermore, how does "a stand-alone service" mix with "donation network"? Where does the "network" come into play? Is it social? Is it like distributed authentication?

Stand alone service, imagine a single donations module, which has payment processing in itself and operates isolated everywhere, that is not a stand alone service, that is a module for making donations. Donorge is a stand alone donation service and it's added Drupal module is dedicated to work with this stand alone donation service.

Network, the network is largely relational. It is a relational donation network via the ability for items to verify each other and show how they relate. This builds trusts and insight and many things in relation to both donor and receiver interests. That is the network which is formed bottom-up, which promotes more insight and trust.

>How does using donorge complicate the donation?
In stead of making only a transaction, you end up at a donation basket where essentially you pay for items in the basket. It also offers more payment options for donors.

>Your description below just says "sign up for donorge" as one step, but you need to realize that /any/ hassle in the sign-up procedure is a huge barrier of entry. Signing up for a Drupal account is certainly not an effortless step now.

Oh I agree 100% with you. It's done really poor on Donorge! I want to update! I should note that you need not actually sign up for a Donorge account just in order to donate. It has advantages to sign up as a donor, like saving your baskets and tracking your history for example.

>Services like Paypal have had tons of usability research to make it easiest for new users to get started. You need to do the same: with social software, people are the key ingredient.

They have money, I don't. They have many users, I don't. So I do my best man, that's all I can do. I do appreciate your insight.

>Finally, your writing style is quite hard to read. Try sticking to shorter sentences and try to stay to the point.

Yes ;) English is not my native language and I am not very clear in English.

>PS: Your faq mentions fees, while your frontpage says there are none. When money is involved, you need to make sure /every/ single piece of information is correct, otherwise people will dismiss your site as a phishing scheme.

Corrected!

You must have been right, as Donorge no long exits.

I'm not sure how it is any harder than paypal. You put a button on your site, make it a donorge donation button or a paypal button leading to donorge, or your own button. They click the button and go to the site and donate. Others get to see how popular and trusted your module or product or whatever is, maybe even find other similar projects, and track all there giving in one place. If there was a difference, I'd say the benefits far outweigh it, however, I don't think going through donorge adds any additional steps.
Of course the tone is over the top and unecessary, but let's all lighten up a bit. I like to see a bit of passion and desparation in a developer now and then. :)


When he first announced this project months ago I was all over badgering him about it and trying to get it integrated with Drupal sites directly. I understand that marketing has been lacking, but I'm curious why nobody else has sought him out and wanted to get involved and see this adopted by the larger Drupal community. I guess I'm also wondering what other projects do different. Why did people suddenly think Flickr was a great place to put all their pics, etc.? Thanks.

True, a donorge button is not the same as a simply transaction button. But then again, it is about making donations and not just transactions, there is a different background working here.

>so the way he lashes out at us having our own donations button is a bit rediculous

It is certainly not my intention to 'lash out'. I am only trying to explain things and was wondering something. It seems all kind of things are seen in my question and it basically sucks that is the case.

>Furthermore, bounties and such were discussed at the developer sprint. You can find notes about this in the event book. If he thinks Donorge is a good way to do that, he should present it in a clear matter to everyone.

Donorge is not about bounties, donations are about support: donations. Some people tell you explain things, other not to lash out. It is confusing me. I will try to do my best to communicate, but I don't always know when and where! It's also allot of work to do Donorge all by yourself, so that makes time another issue, I hope you understand.

>It hasn't been properly explained. And no one has made a concerted effort to detail the benefits of this approach.

It's clear then a discussion needs to take place somehow, somewhere, because people now call me about a 'tone' where I have the best intentions, that's kind of painfull. At least there should be good talk I agree.

>There was mention of donorge.org at drupalcon but the main reaction of the drupal developers was a shrug, because while they were aware of it's existence .. they weren't approached about it.

I don't understand. Isn't it great a donation service is build also for Drupal's interest in donations? Look I don't know hardly anyone, how can I approach? I posted a few things and got hardly any reply so that makes it harder for me to understand where and how to talk.

>There have been a handful of posts about it on this site, and not a single one to any of the mailing lists or mention of it on irc. No one has decided not to use donorge, but the reverse is also true.

No problem about not using it! I am very busy with Donorge, I cannot help not having lengthy discussions, I am open to talk that's simple. I actually have posted some info about integration (http://drupal.org/node/17953) and a bit about Donorge here (http://donorge.org/fosdem.htm), I can't do more then that or I think I am a spammer. I am not a marketing talent, that's seems pretty obvious to me by now :)

so there is no reason for your users to lose trust, or have worries. Payment processing happens on Paypal. Use a paypal button, but just link it to donorge. Oh, and did the problem get fixed?

I should note here that organizations do have the option to hide their donation history info, the choice is available for them.

>For many of us, Drupal development is about giving away and helping each other. We spent many hours, days, weeks, months, even years, giving away.

Yes and that's great! Some people want to _give Drupal money_ for it :) That's what donations do, support your giving by giving something else in turn. That's my point with Donorge as well actually Dries. Donorge can help Drupal by donating percentages it receives to Drupal as well! It can help by showing another relation to Drupal as there are many and donors should know!

>I think you should change your marketing focus from "What is donorge?" to "What does it buy us?". (Hint: the answer should be more resources and motivated contributors.)

It's funny you mention marketing, because I haven't applied any yet :) That's the point, there is no marketing and people seem to pick any random bits they can. I have pretty much only been coding so far. Marketing, I know hardly anything about it at this moment.

I think you will be interested to know that Donorge has been just offered a free column in the http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/ magazine. I am about to plug Drupal there and you know why? Because Donorge *IS* about giving and helping each other. The point is that if Drupal uses Donorge for donations, the relations begin to matter on a _donations_ level. A giving network allows more abilities for support, also by percentages or the mere showing of relations. Donorge wants to show relations to Drupal for example, because it depends on them and wants to see them supported as well, that is the nature of a relational giving network. It's not just about giving code and documentation, donations are more general and not yet recognized as a shared interest by many open source projects. There is an unused strategy or smart system waiting to go on-line when it comes to donations. Donorge will simply plug Drupal because it is _related_ to Drupal, it is natural to do and support each other this way, that is the strong point of a relational giving network, you help both the donor and receiver this way. The problem for Donorge is marketing and communicating, you recognize that clearly ;)

>Can you give a flowchart comparison of the normal donation process via Paypal and what happens when Donorge becomes involved?

OK! :) No marketing speak, well I do my best. User clicks on a donation button and gets on Donorge (or on the item page, that is up to the item to set), donor completes payments steps there, chooses payment method, donation finished. In case the item donates percentages, a donation will have been made to 2 or more items at once (visibly), and in case the donor wants to donate to more then 1 item each month, he/she can use saved donation baskets for this. When the user was logged into Donorge, he/she can save baskets with all donation, item and payment details in them. Donors can also donate anonymously if wanted and still trace his/her own donation history.

Another example relating to yourself:
You might have an item on Donorge called: hivemindz. You indicate to relate to or be friend of Drupal. Donors now know how they can also indirectly support you. OR you can set hivemindz to auto donate a percentage to Drupal or more things related to your interests. This is in your interests as well as that of the the donors because they what the support you and that does not always mean supporting you directly only.

But more is gained from this? Trust!
"You do not relate to this and that? Then how do you explain telling me this and that? Why should I (continue to) support your organization or your interest? I do not see how your interests relate to others interests, it seems in actuality you are isolated while you tell me all kind of things. Based on that I favor to support the other organization with my donations. That other organization is transparent about it's interests and relations. In addition it shows that by supporting them I also indirectly support some other directly related interest and another, this is visibly shown to be close to my initial interests. Your organization no longer interests me, because _you isolate_. I have discovered that in reality, your mission or organization _is isolated_."

A charity can tell you all kind of things and act in your interests, but where are the relations showing this? Donorge stimulates transparency and showing relations around interests.

Now you might have another item called fireorb. Fireorb can also indicate to depend on Drupal and be friends of hivemindz. It all helps in perspective of both yourself and the donor. Drupal in turn gets more and more relations to itself and in turn donors get a better and better picture about their interests. It all works transparently and bottom-up.

So for the donating steps themselves not much per-se is different, the difference lies in the network behind it. A donation network IS NOT a transaction network only, Donorge thinks it should not be! You can in turn always mail your donors or those interested in you. You can set donation goals, you can see what organizations are hard to trust, basically these current features: http://donorge.org/d_content/features

Lapurd did not meant to insult anyone so let's get back to discussing the real issues here. :)

Do you realize you are a great inspirational communicator yourself by calling people an a*s. http://www.electroniclife.org/node/80