How I did it - What do you think about this?
How I did it - What do you think?
I would love to have such a forum category placed right below the General Discussion Category.
This way People could share how they did things on their drupal sites.
An inter-active learning tool for all Drupal users, from newbies to the pros.
This type of information would be extremely helpful. It would be a work in progress and not some empirical white paper document that explains from just one person's point of view how to do something.
Example posting:
How I built my downloads section
-------------------
Then the originating poster would provide an explanation of the step by step process how he/she built downloads section on their site. I'm not talking about sharing a few ideas and links. I'm talking about a complete follow through from start to finish of the entire downloads section.
All the modules that were used, how the modules were configured, how the entry screens were prepared, the taxonomy, the content creation, any code changes, etc. The original poster would continue to reply to his/her own first message until the document was complete.
If the originating poster started the topic before he/she was finished with the project other users could also share ideas to help complete the processes to the finished project.
Users could respond and ask questions after the project was final as well on the thread topic.
Readers could follow along with the entire process and implement the same thing on their sites. This would be a very good training tool. Learn as you go kind of thing in some situations, and just having a complete process of how to do a thing in other situations.
Users would also be able to apply some of the things they learned about building a downloads section to other things they are doing on their sites.
I have seen postings in General Discussions that get started with building site items of interest. Those postings usually end up on the original posters site or places where the information is hard to find. The postings get lost in the General Discussions and the topics are rarely fully develped, because they are not focused in one place for users to find and respond easily.
I'm talking about a dedicated forums category - How I did it
Then all such documents would be in one very conspicuous place to all forum users.
This would be an excellent inter-active training tool among users.
It would help them to learn by interaction among Drupal users.
An Example:
If this was in a forums category How I did it
The entire document would be available to users. Now the referred site is not working. You may still ferret through most of the information and do the modification, but probably not.
-----------------------------------
I suggest this in a forums, because the lack of formal document structure and carefree style of a forums is more comfortable to users.
User responses will keep the discussions at an open informal discussion level. This way people would be more inclined to share, much more so than writing or commenting upon a formal document.
The forum category is necessary to put all this type of informal information in one place for teaching users. The purpose should be to help people learn and share How I did it
----------------------------------
I've only been responding and posting on this forums for 6 weeks, but I've read a myriad of postings where users vent frustrations with the Drupal learning processes. Daily I see new postings about how to do things and the responses are links, a few module mentions... and the poster is left to his wits.
A forums category such as this will answer a lot more questions and provide a gateway to learning not exploited on any CMS site as I recall.
There is a lot of discussion on the forums about all kinds of topics, but nothing organized specifically for informal learning among users. Learning how do things from start to finish with complete informal explanations about how things were done, with questions and answers by users.
A dedicated forum category is critical. Users will know where to go for informal education on topics of interest.
How I did it
A forum dedicated to what users did to build specific items of interest on their sites.
I originally posted this in an other thread as a response to a user. I got to thinking there might be a lot more interest in this as a topic of interest to others as well.
Personally, I've spent 6 weeks trying to get a handle on Drupal and I would be elated to have a something like this to help me get a jump start on Drupal.
How I did it - What do you think?
It will interesting to read what you and others think about it. You might also add some thoughts to make a "How I did It" category more viable as a training tool.
Please respond, thanks.
...
In general we encourage people to post how to and tutorials in the handbook for task specific methods. The main criteria is that it gets written and you will notice quality various wildly. There are some community sites that are forum centric and all knowledge lives in the forums. This can result in some interesting sustainability issues in the long term. Drupal tries to migrate information to the handbook for long term retention.
As to sites, the description on the Drupal showcase forum is;
We encourage such descriptions and often enough there are those with details and the question / answer discussions you are looking for. The example link you provide is in fact in the proper location Drupal showcase. It is also available to all Drupal users. You will find both helpful and not so helpful posts in that forum.
In general, I tell people to figure in about three weeks to three months to begin to get a handle on Drupal. This time depends on a number of factors including the complexity of what they are trying to accomplish, pre-conceived notions of how it 'should be' vs how Drupal works, success at interacting with the community, availing themselves of the various resources etc.
As a note, there are many people who will not respond to posts that 'vent' or 'rant'. Venting and ranting is annoying. Discussion and conversation is welcome, but dealing with angry people is not fun and many people will just spend there time on others.
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
Let's put the proverbial axe
Let's put the proverbial axe in the stump.
-steven peck
I've been studying and working with Drupal (6) weeks and I've spent the entire time x 14 hour days trying to build one site.
I've asked many questions and gotten responses. I've searched my searcher off, and googled for hours on end.
My first item of importance for my site is a downloads section.
Finally, two days ago I got the taxonomy and the form for user uploads to the point I need it.
I needed two required taxonomy terms to apply to each uploaded file.
The 2 taxonomy terms are each required, and must be selected from a long list of pre-assigned terms of each.
Using the CCK I now have a viable upload entry screen that users can submit files for upload.
Now I will start dealing with the issue of presenting the data, providing a variable spin type selector for the 2 taxonomy terms the files are associated with. Information relating to what I'm trying to do should not be a big deal. I have to re-invent the friggin wheel to build a downloads section on my site that has been done by probably 10,000 other Drupal site builders.
My efforts of course don't even deal with the problems of making a competent presentation of these 20,000+ files I already have in the database, not counting new user uploads.
Users are constantly asking for things on this forums that should have long ago been addressed in a fashion where the user can simply follow a procedure that has been done by someone else previously.
Please... tell me precisely where I can find just what I need to build a competent downloads section on my site? Tell me how to search it out, tell me what I'm doing wrong, tell me? I care less where I get the information... I just want the information.
I just linked over to the handbooks and looked at the how to
There are only 9 articles, and none of them is about something specific like building a news page, a downloads, etc.
Status quo for dealing with this topic isn't working in handbooks...
All I'm suggesting is a straight path to information dealing with building items of interest in websites. Information that is in one place and constantly referred to by other users. I don't want links, and half way responses. I don't want compassion and goodlucks. I just want to go quickly to a place where I can EXPECT to find what I want.
I'm not interested in all the places and things with round-a-bout and by-the-way information. I spent the whole morning seeking Drupal information. I don't do much programming or coding of my sites. I build sites... I've long ago gone past the days of wanting to ferret things out, and do it myself. Afterall, what would I need a CMS for if I just wanted to code.
My work with Drupal is not about some academic endeavor. I want to get my sites working well and on the web ASAP.
You know there is a problem, we all know, if we've been around these forums for a couple weeks. Drupal users need solutions not referrals to something we already have "that aint working".
ah well now
Axe in the stump? I'm not entirely clear on how to take that statement. I do find that when someone feels the need to use my full name like this, it is intended as a 'dressing down' so to speak which is always interesting.
I didn't say you didn't do research or weren't trying. I stated a generalization on how long it seems to take people to pick up on various things Drupal.
File handling is not Drupal's greatest strength. There are multiple approaches to it in the contributed modules section and various long discussions on the dev list archives regarding various scenarios and complicating factors. You seem to have come to a solution that meets your needs which is good.
I can't. No one who has built such a solution has bothered to write up and share how they accomplished this task. While I understand that you want this information, my sites do not have this need nor do I have the time to explore this for you. When you accomplish this configuration the community of those that come after you you would appreciate it if you were the one who wrote this documentation.
Yes they are. However, once someone finds a solution if they do not document or contribute it, then it will not exist. We cannot force contribution no matter how much I may desire it. That is the frustrating nature of Open Source software. The fact that there may be multiple paths to accomplish the same goal complicates matters greatly.
I understand what you want. If no one has contributed it, then I can't link it to you, nor can I organize it in the handbooks.
I understand that. Are you offering me money? You should know that I do this, including support, as a hobby so you get what support that I choose to offer as I have time to offer it. Others,full/part time professionals or hobbyists, also offer their assistance on a volunteer part time basis. This is the weakness of Open Source and it's strength. You can solve or mitigate this by paying for a support contract from a number of people offering Drupal services.
I didn't say it was, merely mentioning a cultural thing with our community. You used some key words like 'vent' in your post and I thought I should as a courtesy mention it.
We need people to volunteer and contribute these documented solutions. Otherwise, it won't happen. You can be one of those people. This is something endemic to Open Source and there are a number of philosophy documents scattered around the web on this very subject. I would also add that, it may not be working for you, but it has been working for a number of people. I do believe it can be better, but there is a lot of documentation that is definitely helping people.
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
I addressed you by your own
I addressed you by your own your sig - Steven Peck
-----------------------------
I made a stab at sharing something that might work.
You officiously rebutted everything I said. At the same time, you used a spurious argument of "dressing me down" to create such documents. LOL
Obviously you don't like my idea, and status quo does not work.
So, Drupal sticks their head back in the sand expecting the storm to pass. LOL
-------------------------------
I've built a complete "Joomla Site 1.5 stable" site today and installed the Docman component. The docman is a full finished download component and does everything I've been trying to accomplish in the past 6 weeks of Drupal work.
The docman has a component that will also allow me to upload my 20,000+ download files enmasse and be accessible from the module. I haven't even started to think of this yet in Drupal.
-------------------------------
Regardless, I plan to stay with Drupal. I expect eventually to learn it well enough to use it on some sites.
...
I felt you were 'dressing me down' from the tone and demands you choose to make. Now you are making accusations because you didn't like my answer.
I very clearly said that file management was not Drupal strengths and made reference to discussions regarding various approaches. Good that you found a solution that fit your needs even if it was not Drupal.
If you stick with Drupal I do hope you will create such documentation as I have mentioned. From the tone and demands in your posts, I am not sure if that will be the case. I tried to provide information and help. Now we know a little bit more about each other and that is important in a community.
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
Obviously, a waste of time
Obviously, a waste of time discussing the subject further with you.
What did you do to your own thread?
You made a very reasonable suggestion, and I see why it seemed like a good idea.
Here's my first reaction:
Actual answers should find their way into the handbook. The forums are unstructured, naturally high in noise, and more suited to threads that start with questions, not answers.
It's always encouraged to summarize constructive threads into solid handbook pages - which sometimes get edited or updated over time, rather than rambling threads that get corrections and additions pegged onto them.
Most importantly, when I'm searching, book pages rate as several times more likely and relevant to my quest than possible forum threads!
So we end up building a 'Site Recipes' collection of answers, examples and showcases.
Oh look, Site Recipes is a good place to start...
So basically, I think there are better ways of collecting/collating information than multiplying forums indefinately. (actually, I'm frustrated with the modern internet trend of collating homogeneous contributions into random blog/discussion threads rather than actual site building)
Forums are the opposite of the "straight path" you are looking for. Book pages are.
Think wiki, not bulletin board for what you are wanting here.
People that volunteer to contribute docs are extremely welcome! You making a write-up as a book page would be a good thing!
-----
... Then you rounded on sepeck ... who made pretty similar constructive suggestions ... and turned your good idea thread into yet another rant about why you couldn't find exactly what you wanted exactly where you needed it, and how difficult it was to understand and why your exact requirements weren't met, and how the existing system, contributors and status quo suck - culminating in the the classic switch to another CMS :-)
If your answer doesn't exist, it is, like sepeck says, because it hasn't been written. Not because we didn't have a forum dedicated to it. Yes, file handling solutions are hard.
You explicitly asked for feedback on a suggestion - you got it, then for some reason threw a wobbly about your problem rather than (as you constructively started with) everyones solution.
Reading your posts makes you sound strangely combatative, so you may take my response to your question as a personal attack like you did on Sepeck (who is one of the top documentation and help contributors here!). Instead, I'd suggest you re-read your later posts and check how your tone sounds. Then get back on topic and see how your idea can be merged into the current handbook/contribution structure.
Your concept of how-to/how-i-did-it has merit. I just disagree with the 'yet another forum' idea.
.dan.
How to troubleshoot Drupal | http://www.coders.co.nz/
I'm not combative, angry or
I'm not combative, angry or anything of the sort with you are Sepeck.
Why waste words trying to address what you might think of my attitudes, demeanor or what have you?
All the ways to produce good documentation on "how to" do things are well meaning, but results are negligible.
A forums category on "How I did it or How to" would require moderation to keep things focused on the intent of the category that's all.
Thanks for the responses
How I Did It area is a GOOD idea.
It's just the the common wording currently is HOWTO... which is essentially the same idea.
Such as your suggestion itself? You are asking for a structural change, extended rules, and ongoing extra moderation for that to work. Instead of just writing up this topic and placing it in the currently most appropriate place where people will go looking and (hopefully) find it.
Anyway. Have you tried just making a book page for the documentation you are trying to add? The process is exactly the same as making a forum post - create content. The entry bar is really low. You have permission!
Forum topics
Handbook pages
Which is what you wanted, (in your later posts) I believe. In your searches you will have found many inconclusive threads re file management. Some of them you may have read through before finding out they were for Drupal 4.6, 4.7, or for a module that is discontinued, or that what seemed like a good idea actually didn't work.
That's just because that's the truth about file management at the moment. Wishing there was a clear answer won't make it so. Proposing further technical restrictions to the forum system won't make the page you are looking for magically appear either.
That's what forums are like. They are always non-cannonical, not great for 'reference' and often in flux.
Handbook pages are designed to be the reference, how-to doc you want. Inconclusive or outdated content is edited out from there, or at least flagged as being unreliable.
In your OP, it seems like you actually want to see all the meandering, mistakes, dead-ends, queries, clarifications, contradictions, unfollowed suggestions and disagreements in the course of a site construction. Which, I'll agree, can be informative sometimes. Like this one on UberSoft!. But not to the point where we need a whole category devoted to such a thing. If you read all 148 comments (and counting) on that thread, you may come away with a gestalt feeling for what happened there, and some food for thought, but no easy answers.
See also Developing a government website in Drupal to see if this is what you want to see. Threads like this certainly have their place - and that place is in the course of normal discussion, not in a room of their own.
P.S. I just review the Drupal 'Recent Posts' page and 'my' subscriptions anyway, and almost never browse by forum heading! So where things get posted doesn't affect me at all... unless someone double-posts ;-)
.dan.
How to troubleshoot Drupal | http://www.coders.co.nz/
Again, I think moderation of
Again, I think moderation of such a forum category would be necessary to keep threads on topic.
I've read many threads where there was alot of poster interest on a "How I did it" topic and those threads were very informative.
In fact, more threads have been turned into white papers and competent documents probably than specifically created support documents. There are often some very good starts made in threads that could develop into very informative information, but they get lost in the descending postings of forums.
The only reason I mention a "whole category" is to assure users they can go to those threads in that category and acquire information about "How To or How I did it" subject matter.
I would love to read a long-winded thread "How I did it" on building a competent downloads section (which I'm working on now)
There is nothing like it on this site, and I've exhausted every search option I can think of.
None of us has a corner on good ideas. I appreciate the viewpoints of others even if I might not agree with them altogether.
Since I do have a brain.... it is my responsibility to sort trash from treasure.
and making the sorting easier is a good goal.
Agreed, hence my links above.
My other point about them was the amount of noise and lack of clear answers to someone finding the thread for the first time.
I'm not sure what your definition of "White paper" is, but a compete digest of misc forum posts branching from a topic is not at all authoritative, only marginally readable, and sometimes extremely off-topic..
The write-up that we hope to see at the end of the discussion is like I've been saying - what should then be edited or redrafted into a real, useful document. Call it a HOWTO, How-I-Did-It, Handbook, or 'competent document' once it's actually been written, revised, clarified and edited. The forum discussion is not the answer ... although it may contain an (or several) answers. The map is not the destination.
Which is why forums are not the place for 'informative information' to live. Although it may pass through there on its way home.
I suggest
- 1 (status quo) Continue to encourage folk to post site showcases, with explanations of how they used what modules. The showcase forum is fine for this.
OR
Continue to encourage folk to define their site goals and ask advice on what modules/methods they should use to get there.
- 2 (status quo) Continue to encourage folk to collate their results, lessons and instructions (after the answers have been hashed out) into handbook pages where they can be found again and used as a learning resource.
Usually all it takes is two subscribers nominating a post to be a handbook reference to prompt the OP to cop&paste it over. (There's no actual requirements, just inspiration needed there)
Doing this locks worthwhile advice into amber, and makes it a jewel to be discovered by the next seeker after truth.
I like this system ;-)
.dan.
How to troubleshoot Drupal | http://www.coders.co.nz/
I've thought about this
I've thought about this thread and thought about Drupal.
Thinking of course not to re-invent the wheel, but to actually determine what it would take to help and train users to use Drupal.
Drupal effectively is unlike the CMS I've worked with previously, Xoops and Joomla.
Drupal is modular concept as are Xoops and Joomla. I had to examine my past 6 weeks working with Drupal and try to think of the ways Drupal is different from other CMS, i.e, Joomla and Xoops.
Drupal specific:
Drupal site builders must have knowledge of what they logically want their sites to do.
Drupal, Xoops and Joomla are always discussed as modular CMS.
This might cause you to think they are very similar, but Joomla and Xoops are very different.
Drupal modules for the most part are sophisticated blocks of code designed to integrate seemlessly with other code blocks.
The Drupal site builder integrates modules (code blocks) to form a site.
Drupal site builders must have a very good or thorough knowledge of just what respective Drupal modules (code blocks) actually do in order to effectively place those modules (code blocks) with other (code blocks) to integrate into their sites.
Drupal has some very unique tools to do some exceptional things within their sites. The Construction Content Kit (CCK) is a very good example. This (code block) allows the site builder to add functionality and content into sites that is very flexible. This module (code block) true to the Drupal method does require other Drupal modules (code blocks) to be installed to integrate with CCK.
Drupal modules (code blocks) are flexible enough in many cases to build many specialty content items that are uniquely different from each other and can integrate into very different final applications.
Note: There are some exceptions in the (code blocks), some are actually full applications with specific inputs and output content.
This is the part that basically had me confused to start, that along with my past experience with Joomla and Xoops.
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Xoops and Joomla are altogether different CMS. The each have modules (code blocks), but the code blocks are complete applications. Both Xoops and Joomla modules are for the most part ONLY complete applications. This does make building sites faster and easier for users. The limitations are... the modules themselves may provide some flexibility for site builders, but not a lot.
Xoops and Joomla sitebuilders do not have to logically determine much about the installation of modules. The choice is... do they want this or that content feature. If they do, they add the module and live with limitations and extras that are built into the module.
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You ask why did I go through all that?
I think the learning processes for Drupal are unique from other CMS and training people to build sites using Drupal requires different methods.
If we asked Drupal module builders to write a complete documentation on how their broad scope (code block) module is to be applied you would never get the documents. Why, because the (code block) modules have so many possible ways they can be applied to so many things. It would take too much time and effort for such documentation.
This alone creates a need for a discussion type training where people can inter-relate and discuss the ways and means they have applied these (code block) modules. The developers of (code block) modules, for the most part, haven't been very successful explaining just what can be done with their modules. It is not the fault of the developers, they give us modules with functionality and flexibility to intergrate into our sites seemlessly. Drupal needs to take initiative to train people to effectively utilitize the modules with the Drupal CMS.
Maybe my suggestion for a forums category "How I did it or How to" probably isn't a best fit, but it is a start.
By George He's Got It!
:-)
I really really appreciate this post of yours.
It does illustrate or explain a certain epiphany relating to the Drupal "module" system!
Slightly painful, but certainly true in the grand scheme of sophisticated sites.
Drupal modules are sets of LEGO blocks, which can be put together in a multitude of ways. Yet, if you lack the imagination, dedication, or effort (no blame) most of them aren't very special on their own. Only when you use them with others do they show their coolness.
I guess the Joomla etc modules are a bit more like manufactured die-cast toys that are pretty good individually, but don't natively plug into each other.
You can, if needed, write a spec or set of instructions for a stand-alone module, but writing instructions for a LEGO block - even a very very complicated one - cannot capture what that block can do in association with the other pieces. Or even what it should do!
Drupal does require that the site builder provides the mental glue needed to break their requirements down into feature sets, and build their product back up from there. Some folk find that a barrier to entry, and they have a point.
But - and this is also a benefit native to open source - once you've got over that learning curve, there is no limit to the amount of customizing you can do to make everything fit together and work exactly as you intend. Usually by assembling, hooking into, or extending and modifying existing modules. This big benefit is what impresses me about Drupal most of all.
So ... to bring it back on topic, I agree, and always have done, that "Site Recipes" are a useful type of documentation. More write-ups in that vein would be good to see.
I'd still have to warn that any comprehensive site-build document may easily become overwhelming, due to the small size of the pieces involved, and the exponential number of settings and options that each module adds! Every site is somewhat unique, and most of the crafted ones end up with dozens of contribs and many inter-related dependancies.
But now you see why this is (and must be).
Drupal suits folk who like playing with LEGO. Which also describes most developers and techies. The open-sourcers who are in for the fun of creation.
It's simply not as good for folk who want out-of-the-box results. And they often get filtered out or scared off pretty soon.
It's usable by folk who are looking for the instructions on the LEGO box (which, with respect, sounds like your request :-) .
But many of those instructions haven't been written.
... partly because the guys in group A don't believe in only following the instructions on their boxes of LEGO.
:-)
I keep saying "documentation" where you keep looking for a "discussion". :-} So we are still looking for slightly different things. But I think we've got the same goal in mind.
.dan.
How to troubleshoot Drupal | http://www.coders.co.nz/
I appreciate your response
I appreciate your response
I put up a Joomla site over the last couple of days, which had to have a competent downloads section.
The downloads files all relate to categories and other sections within the site.
I am Bummed, because I've had enough experience (trial and error) in the past 6 weeks with Drupal to know if I could have used tools like CCK, Taxonomy and Views it would make a much better site. My users could access, view and utitilze the data much more efficiently. The site would have an appeal, fluidity and flexibility that I feel would make my users truly want to use and enjoy the site.
There is no question (in my mind) there is an art to sitebuilding, not just the actual building of the site. The way the site builder takes his data, his site building tools and builds a site that people actually enjoy (return often).
The Drupal system with all the 3rd party modules provides exceptional tools to build those kinds of sites...like no other CMS package.
Your analogy to Lego, well it's pretty spot on when you consider Lego now builds all kinds of modules that have a basic connection method but when integrated/put together they form a unique "Lego thing". The problem compared to Drupal modules... the user cannot see immediately what his module block does or how it's going to work in various situation.
Note: I've still got my Drupal installation in a folder on the server I built the referenced Joomla site. I plan to tweak away at the Drupal site when I have time to work through the learning process. The Drupal folder does contain a working complete site... the downloads section was just taking too much time to build.
These last two posts should go on the front page
Wow! That summarizes everything perfectly for me (and I think would lead to happier users if everyone knew this going in). I too tried Joomla and Xoops - Joomla was very much like what I expected a CMS to be. However, since I didn't know exactly what site I was going to develop (we were prototyping a community), I got frustrated that I was so locked in, even though the fit and finish of the components were nice. That's why I ended up in Drupal. Even though it was more of blank slate, with a little cleverness, I could do some nice stuff and change up things on the fly to meet changing requirements. So far, other than a good file upload system (and I guess you could always integrate the KnowledgeTree CMS), there hasn't been a lot I haven't been able to do.
Here's a How I Did It for you -
I used the Fantastico tools with my site hosting package to keep building Drupal test sites until I got the right set of modules. Now I have a site that is stable, does everything I want. I wouldn't have done that with Joomla but Drupal is really great for experimentation. If you have that mindset going in (and the time), you will be far more successful.
I also ended up on Drupal b/c the Joomla docs were usually incomplete or missing. I think the Handbooks and other contrib help is very useful and far beyond what I am used to with other community packages.
Appreciate the posts-
Jim Orbin