Hello
I am making a final decision on Drupal vs expression engine for an e-magazine site. My impression of Expression Engine is quite favourable:
- It has a really intuitive template system using tage
- It has custom fields built in so easy to place and manipulate content -- very flexible
- It is very secure -- only one security patch in last 3+ years
- It seems quite scalable
- Query module pretty much replicates Drupal Views
- Admin interface looks nice
Now I realise that Drupal with CCK and Views is a pretty powerful combination but EE seems to do this out of the box.
I have a feeling that Drupal is a more powerful system and perhaps is more scalable for large sites, which could be an important consideration. The main issue I have with Drupal is that implementing a feature can take a hell of a long time as it often requires coding. For instance, I have been trying to highlight "active links" for children of primary links and I ended up having to query the database send the return as an attribute back to a theme function that I overrode ... a lot of effort for little gain (I realise that menutrails can do this but not on Drupal 6)
Anyway, main question was have any of you got experience of EE and in particular where Drupal beats it significantly.
Thanks for your help.
John
Comments
Just a comment on security
People often point out how many securiity releases Drupal has as if it is a bad thing. Given a large enough code base (almost any CMS) the odds are there will be some security issues. So while I can not speak directly to EE, the absense security fixes does not mean something is secure.
Hear you
I hear you ... the data seem promising though http://secunia.com/product/7010/?task=statistics
There has only been one vulnerability in since 2003. Although the relatively small market for the software could mean vulnerabilities have not been exposed, which would be a worry.
Since EE does not have an
Since EE does not have an open source license, there is not a large community of developers constantly reviewing the source code and submitting patches (as it is with Drupal). Though the source is provided with the product, the only compelling reason to search for a bug and submit a report is if it directly obstructs your progress.
"[Source] Hacks will effect your ability to receive technical support.
... the source is open for you to modify but it is not an open source license, the source is under our copyright. Our license does not allow you to distribute those modifications." - http://expressionengine.com/forums/viewthread/71342/
Open source?
Interesting comparison, I understand EE is not free and it is not open source. I believe it is based on CodeIgniter which is a nice (open source) php framework, lean and mean (like Drupal core). I suspect that there is more energy behind Drupal, more sites, more help. The lack of security patches IMHO is meaningless without knowing the size of the user base. Some would argue that open source must be less secure because it is, uumm - open source!
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www.purpleoar.co.nz/scryptik - Javascript editor with syntax error checking
www.purpleoar.co.nz - Web development, Drupal consultancy
EE not open source
You are right in that EE is not open source and is not free -- although a core version is free. THe full version costs $150 in yr 1 and $30 thereafter -- Drupal clearly wins there!
Although EE is not open source you get access to the source code when you buy a copy.
Hear you on the security issues and think you are right about the energy of the community. EE does have a small, growing, very loyal following ... I believe it is a nice bit of software
imo CodeIgniter is not such a
imo CodeIgniter is not such a good framework if you compare it with ZF or Symfony.
To topic starter: I guess drupal has much more support... I would rather take that one than one with limited support
Anyone else got thoughts
bump
From
From http://expressionengine.com/downloads/details/query_module/
It looks as though EE's Query Module "lets you run queries", which you do in Drupal with db_query() (and maybe present the results with theme('table', ...)). Views on the other hand lets you build up logically-correct queries using a GUI. And more.
Having said that I've not used EE, though I had a quick look at their site the other day and thought it looked interesting.
Re. getting your menu trail to show up in primary/secondary links, I was hoping this would be sorted in D6. In D5 I used a simple botch in page.tpl.php, along these lines:
print str_replace('-active"', '-active active-trail"', theme('links', $primary_links, array('class' => 'primary-links')))There are neater ways of doing it, and lots of posts in the forums and handbook about this one! Might be worth doing a search. In D5 the -active actually gets added in http://api.drupal.org/api/function/menu_primary_links/5, so you could implement phptemplate_menu_primary_links() to override it; alternatively overriding http://api.drupal.org/api/function/theme_menu_item_link/5 might be a possibility. However, I think it's all changed in D6.
gpk
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gpk
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www.alexoria.co.uk
Drupal vs. EE
As a web hobbiest, I'm am no php expert. Consequently, I invested a lot of time into learning and implementing Drupal sites. The learning curve was quite high and the documentation is scattered (that is changing now with the release of several books). It seemed that for every problem there were several solutions. Image module vs. image attach/imagecache, event module vs. cck date, etc. And although I could theme sites pretty well, dealing with hooks and theme overrides made my head hurt.
Conversely, for the past 3 weeks at work I've been using EE for our company website. It's been a joy to work with. The documentation is excellent and the forums are helpful. I feel like I can quickly build a template exactly to my specifications without contemplate. I can have a backend whose UI is perfect for a non-technical client. And, above all, the cms feels "knowable" to me. The expressions are very logical and easy (the cheet sheet ).
I'll give the analogy. MAC is to PC as EE is to Drupal. MAC is prettier and easier to get work done. It stays out of the way of your creativity, and is somewhat a more controlled, closed system (sometimes an advantage-->security). And is more expensive. But, the PC has a ton of software (some of it crappy, some great), but sometimes it fights you. It's the cheaper way to go and has a lot of capabilities.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents.
I'll give the analogy. MAC
If that's true, mac rocks over pc so EE must be very good and worth every penny :) I think with mac you may pay more initially ( a few hundred more ? ) to get a product that will last for ever and retains its value or you can go the cheap route and end up having to replace broken a broken pc every few months and ultimately paying more in the long run.
It really comes down to less stress and headaches when dealing with any CMS, site owners need to focus their time on content and design not on trying to learn php or how to code or hack to get something done.
The price tag definitely plays an important role in the decision making process though EE is damn pricey and very restricted as far as licensing goes. Just the other day I saw a drupal site template maker wanting $60 for one template and you can only use it on one site, he's out of his mind if he things anyone will buy that. I think the whole licensing sham has gotten out of control.
For some things its worth paying a little more but for others maybe not.
back to joomla
i agree with you .. i spent almost 2 months now trying to figure out how to do little things with drupal and everytime i found solution for a problem another problem arise and i have to search the net for a tutorials or say tutorial, but come on ... all the tutorials are talking about the same thing for example try to get a tutorial about CCK (for some one like myself who doesn not want to spend his time figuring out basic things) most of the tutorials on the net are the same (how to install the module and how to do this one - which is the very basic one- and the rest it is your job) and before someone jump up and say why dont you search drupal site first here is my answer:
(and compare this to any other CMS site):
- try to post a question for example in Drupal site forum and search for it say a week later (let me know if you can find it - use search).
- try to search the site for a specific Module... there is no way (pls dont mention Advance search) to JUST search the modules section. why is that? i dont wanna search the whole site. my interest is in a module....for example.. try to search for CCK module or views module you ll get a results from forums, support, etc .. and keep scrolling up and down untill you find it...the only quick way i found to search for module in drupal site is to use google search this way you can go directly to this specific module page.
Drupal for me sound like a promising CMS but need too much work.
now back to joomla
correct me if i am wrong (i hope i am).
If joomla meets your needs
If joomla meets your needs by all mean use it. It's all about what gets the job done not which is 'better' in any absolute sense.
One thing though-- the majority of your criticism, and it is perfectly valid, is about drupal.org not drupal itself. Although since d.o is built with drupal, it's a little bit of both.
Anyway, drupal.org is undergoing a COMPLETE redesign which will greatly improve the entire problem with search. For some specifics, see http://groups.drupal.org/drupalorg-redesign-plan-drupal-association.
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"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." - Lao Tzu
"God helps those who help themselves." - Ben Franklin
"Search is your best friend." - Worldfallz
definately drupal
EE's module and theme selection seems quite limited when compared to drupal. There is a lot more community support here as well.
As for nice admin interface, drupal isn't ugly! :-), its flexibility might add a little complicatedness, but in the end all is rewarding. much more can be done in drupal with little coding knowledge....
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I have to say, EE's user
I have to say, EE's user interface a the best I have seen in my life of CMS...
but...
To me, taxonomy is the diamond of Drupal, and I don't believe EE have anything to match that...
Mgccl's Blog
EE's taxonomy
Actually, EE has has a great taxonomy solution via this plugin.
If you want an introduction to EE, I would recommend you read this recently released article about EE. The author designed the beautiful church site, thecity.org.
I see... a plug in for
I see... a plug in for 39.99? I don't think I'm going to use EE
but I found EE is quite nice, I can suggest it to people want a simple CMS with some few spare money.
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Mgccl's Blog
UGC and EE
It seems like there are some issues with EE if you want user generated content or social media activity:
- When your users publish, they get the EE admin interface (black and grey). This is an usability issue for first time publishers.
- I didn't see a way to allow users to click "browse" and then upload an image.
- Overall, not as many field choices. No link, date, ratings, currency etc....
Is this right, or can EE do this stuff?
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e-magazine module
Hi John, I know you have done a lot of work on you e-magazine site. As far as I can tell, there are no modules for an e-magazine website. This is a big favor, but would you be willing to share your e-magazine. I need to build an educational news magazine. Please consider. Thank you.
Patty
EE Questions answered, myths busted.
I've used ExpressionEngine (or EE) for a few years, and can comment on a number of the issues raised in the comments above.
Security
EE has had security issues in the past, and will continue to do so, like most software. EllisLabs release updates reasonably frequently, and if you look at the release notes, there are often security issues addressed. But they've only released a handful of security-specific updates over the years, in response to security holes with a clear exploit.
EE has a lot of security baked in, and cleans up a lot of settings that vary on a server to server basis (eg: Magic Quotes). You could do a lot worse than use it as a front controller for arbitrary PHP code.
EllisLabs take security very seriously. But on balance, I think Drupal is likely more secure, simply because it has more scrutiny.
Framework
EE 1.x is NOT built on the CodeIgniter framework, though EllisLabs are responsible for both. 1.x is it's own beast, and has a somewhat quirky codebase that doesn't follow a strict MVC seperation.
There is a significant upgrade to to EE 2.0 in the pipes, that moves the entire codebase over to CodeIgniter. This is pretty exciting, as CodeIgniter rocks. This has been in development for at least a year, screenshots and demos have been shown at conferences, and it appears close to release, though EllisLabs have a policy of not setting firm release dates.
EllisLabs have committed to continuing to support 1.x for a goodly time after the release of 2.0
Themes
EE has a completely open templating approach. There is no limit to how many unique templates you have, how complex they are, and how they're structured. There's consequently no "skinning" so to speak, because each template potentially has a unique structure and simply pulls the content it needs into itself.
Consequently, the "themes" available for EE are... a bit weak. That's becasue hardly anyone uses them, preferring to build template appearance and functionality from scratch. That's the product's real strength.
If you want something that's skin-based, go with Drupal or even Wordpress.
Modules
EE doesn't really have a huge range of modules, compared to Drupal, Joomla or Wordpress.
But this is because philosophically, it is such a flexible tool that people roll their own functionality rather than creating a module. It's a different philosophical approach, but means that EE stuff tends to be more bespoke, and less of a collection of modules patched together.
Note that most functionality can be achieved using EE's built in tags, and doesn't require PHP coding.
A more subtle problem is that the EE community doesn't have a comprehensive repository of the Extensions, Plugins and Modules that _have_ been created for it. The ones listed on teh offical EE site represent a fraction of what's available. You'll find hundreds more of these things strewn through the EE Forums, or on individual's own sites. It's a bit of a mess really.
Publishing Interface
The "Control Panel" for EE on the back end is a bit average looking, but functional.
But you can use teh "Stand Alone Entry Form" capabilities to create publishing and editing forms on the front end within templates. If you go this route, you have all of the unlimited flexibility of EE's templating system to play with, so you have complete control over the publishing forms.
Free Vs Paid
It's all realtive, right? EE is ridiculously cheap, so money isn't really the problem for commercial uses. If it saves 5 hours of your time, it's paid for itself.
On the other hand, it has a somewhat restrictive commercial license, which is more likely to be the issue for people... Note that this license precludes you creating a site that enables individual, unique blogs for each member that registers (ie: you're not allowed to use it to build a MySpace clone, even though it is capable of it).
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I hope this helps,
Che
Drupal for me
I have been developing for years. I have built many sites with Drupal, and consider it excellent.
Last year I built a site with ExpressionEngine.
In summary:
ExpressionEngine is great if you know none/limited PHP. The scripting tags are great. However they are easy to exhaust, and switching to PHP is troublesome. Drawing data from 2 weblogs or more at once is tiring.
If you want users to input data in the front end, only forums and comments are supported. Anything else requires the SAEF, which is a hack. Everything gets difficult once you use the SAEF.
You have to write seperate forms for data input, and data editing. Uploading files from the front end required 3rd party plugins.
Many plugins to do simple tasks are paid-for from 3rd party sites.
If you want full user interaction then Drupal is the way to go.
If you know some PHP then you'll be able to get much more from Drupal, although with Drupal6 I write less and less PHP.
Drupal support is much better, even though ExpressionEngine is paid-for.
Documentation is better with Drupal.
Bug fixes are much quicker with Drupal, as it is open source.
There are many bugs in ExpressionEngine, they just take a long time to fix.
Hope this helps.