Hi Everyone,
Here's what I'm looking to use Drupal for; if there's a tutorial around (preferably step-by-baby-step!), please share its URL; thanks!
I'm looking to create a website that is an informational resource that will also have blogs and forums and audio-visual materials, both "original to the site" and visitor-contributed.
Like everybody else. ;-)
But just how do I go from here -- where I'm still looking through a list of Drupal-friendly webhosts -- to there, where the technological backbone is in place for me to just go and start posting articles, blogs, and video?
I've just purchased the new Drupal 6 book by David Mercer and it will arrive in a few days...but though I am 100% comfortable with XHTML and CSS hand-coding and am a reasonably competent JavaScript "skript kiddie," I'm totally new to the CMS/CMF world, having only heard about it a few months ago and having only started reading on Drupal *yesterday!*
So my plan right now is to sign up with a Drupal-friendly webhost and start tinkering...but I really don't see any Drupal tutorials around (then again, I just have no luck with search engines, even though I understand the whole concept of keywords)...part of my problem as a newbie is that I'm still trying to wrap my mind around just how Drupal will help me do what I need.
I mean, okay, so I want a website...now I know how to write up the XHTML and style it with CSS, and throw in some JavaScript to do this little thing and that...but I don't know how to add blogs and forums and video to it...I had thought to integrate Wordpress and pHpForum onto such a Web 1.0 site, but then I came across Drupal and I'm hearing talk about how this "Drupal system" could somehow do a lot of all that for me...and that's all I know at this point.
Now how to get from this point to my aforementioned goals of a real Web 2.0-capable site?
Many thanks for all your time and help, folks!
Comments
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blogs are controlled by the blog.module which is part of core. enable it in administer -> modules
then goto your create content link in the navigation menu
there you will have a "blog entry" link to allow you to create a blog post.
if you want to organize your blog posts
goto adminsiter -> taxonomy
create a vocabulary (container) for your categories (terms)
associate this taxonomy with the blog content type
ie:
vocabulary = Blog Categories
terms = computing, fitness, drupal, so on so forth
now when you create blog entries you have a drop down allowing you to associate bog posts with those tags.
Get the above working. Drupal becomes much easier if you bite off small enough pieces that you can chew comfortably.
The handbooks have a plethora of information, there are video tutorials all over the place and most of them are listed.
check out lullabot.com drupaldojo.com drupalschool.com and so on so forth. There are plenty of tutorials.
also check out the drupalc cookbook, which was written by a new comer last year. Though some of the information may not be specific to Drupal 6.x
Well...
I've searched the whole day and I haven't found what I'm looking for yet, which is a step-by-step guide to creating a website using Drupal.
Moreover, I'm not concerned about merely entering content, but styling its presentation...it seems that there is a very limited number of "themes" available for use on Drupal-created sites, and of these relative few even far fewer are of any, ahem, aesthetic note....
I need a step-by-step guide in how I can style my own webpages. I could do it all in xHTML and CSS...would I be able to do it in that first, in xHTML and CSS, and then somehow "port" it over into Drupal? I seriously don't want just another boxy-blog-lookin' website....
And speaking of blogs, I need step-by-step guidance in creating blogs and forums with Drupal...especially with screenshots and live examples...that's what I'm really looking for, something that I can see, which relates to blogs/forums on a site and its look and feel....
Right now, what I can find is a lot of words, words, words, and terminology...but they are no good! Heck, I even paid $30 and downloaded that new lullabot.com "Understanding Drupal" video and, oh my God, what a waste of money...it's just an extended promo of Drupal, the first fifteen minutes are spent talking about how great it is, blah blah blah, followed by forty-five minutes of talking heads spouting jargon, jargon, jargon....
I'm going to sign up with the webhost Hot Drupal and download Drupal 6 and install and...then what??? That's what I don't understand.
Okay, so I run Drupal 6 and check a few boxes, enter some text, and there's a website. All right. Now how can I change the look and feel of it? Remember, I don't want just another boxy-looking, blog-looking website. I have a design in mind, which I know how to implement in xHTML/CSS...could I somehow just port that over into Drupal???
Sorry for rambling...I'm trying to figure this thing out and it looks like my first concern, website visuals, relies on something called a Drupal "theme" and it's a complicated thing to do....
As a relative newcomer myself . . .
I hate to tell you this, but there are no shortcuts with Drupal. David Mercer's book will give you a good overview and get you started, but it's just that -- a starting point.
In particular, there's no way around learning Drupal's theming system. However, once you understand how it works, it's not as complicated as some people make out. Well, it can be, but it doesn't have to be (generally). To start with, I recommend this sample chapter on theming from the Pro Drupal Development book. Then, check out the Zen theme, which offers well-documented code and good documentation on the Drupal site. There's also a nice video guide to theming with Zen.
Beyond that, there's a heck of lot of information in the forums and documentation section on the Drupal site. If you sift through this (using Drupal's advanced search or Google's search), you can usually find what what you need.
Also, I've found it easier to muck around with Drupal on my PC first (see my posting here, or you can do it simpler without using multi-site, or you can install it on a Mac with MAMP). With a good local development environment, you can start playing around with Drupal's core modules and contributed modules.
I won't kid you -- there is a steep learning curve, which I'm still on. Drupal's certainly not perfect, but I wouldn't use anything else now.
Ugh
You know, that's just the kind of Drupal "evangelism" which had me all excited yesterday...until I found out that even the simplest things take a long, complicated time to resolve...I mean, come on, website visuals -- that's the first thing you notice about a website! Yet you need to delve into all kinds of arcane dickering under the hood in order to work such an elementary thing....
Yeah yeah, I know, I get what I pay for...well, here's to David Mercer's $40+ book clarifying things when it arrives...I don't understand why everything has to be so complicated -- and scattered! I've had good experiences with Open Source software before, like GIMP, Inkscape, and Blender, but this Drupal thinggy is ridiculous, like getting a degree in electrical engineering just to turn on the TV....
Evangelism?
To be fair to Drupal "evangelists", I don't think many claim that Drupal is easy. If you want something easier to theme, try Modx, CMS Made Simple, Wordpress or even Joomla 1.5. However, you won't get the features and flexibility, both "out of the box" or from contributed modules, that you get with Drupal.
I have to admit I felt the same as you when I first started with Drupal -- I couldn't understand some of the needless complexities and, in particular, why Drupal theming was so difficult. However, there is a method to the madness, and honestly, once you know understand how it works, Drupal theming isn't that bad. There's certainly room for improvement, but hopefully that's coming . . . Since my first involvement with Drupal about a year ago, I've noticed a significant shift in the community's attitude, led by the founder, with a new focus on useability.
In the meantime, why not trying building a basic site with Drupal and worry about theming later? You could also try exploring CCK and Views, two of the more popular contributed modules which add further power and flexibility (without the need to code). If you're not happy with what Drupal and those two modules can do, then you haven't wasted time learning Drupal theming.
"Easy"
I don't expect "easy," but not being able to change the first thing about a website -- its visuals -- without complications isn't just "hard," it's *ridiculous!*
Modifying an existing Theme here and there isn't quite the same....
Anyway, I don't mean to debate anyone on this point...we all understand the newbie's frustrations, but Drupal is what it is.
Yes, I will put up a basic site for the time being and try to learn theming later...though you know, all these websites look alike, with their columns and boxes and "bloggy-look," and I was hoping to create something eye-catchingly different...first impressions and all, you know...but yeah, I can do a basic site right now, ugh....
Proceed Slowly
For a custom theme, I would highly recommend that you choose an existing one which is close to what you want, and then edit the template file and the CSS file (page.tpl.php and style.css respectively) and you will both learn and also achieve your goal of a custom theme at the same time. This is FAR easier than starting a theme from scratch.
Yes, Thanks...
I was going to play around with that Zen Theme...but I just can't believe that after all the hooplah about Drupal being the Second Coming of Sliced Bread, it can't even alter site visuals straight out of the box without a ton of tinkering.
Drupal evangelism has the most disappointing morning-after effects since some Viking real estate agent christened a barren iceberg "Greenland"...I think I might even just return David Mercer's Drupal 6 book now...this is ridiculous! I thought a CMS was supposed to make web development easier, not more torturous....
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A CMS makes managing content easier.
Understanding drupals themeing engine and the brilliance in how its works takes time. There is learning curve. Everyone whos been at drupal for a while admits that. With each release that learning curve lessens. Also understanding that you can take a contrib or core theme, and use it as a base for what you want is priceless. Many just look at the themes and go, my gosh they are all terrible without realizing how they can take a theme and bend it into exactly what they want. With most themes, I view them as a framework. I find one with a layout similar to what I want and from there I bend and mold into exactly what I want.
Drupal's intentions are to be the most powerful and flexible framework on the FOSS market.
Other CMS's while they are full of eyecandy, don't offer the power and flexibility of Drupal. When you come to drupal you should leave your own expectations and previous understandings at the door. There is a method to the madness, you just have to get your hands dirty.
head over to groups.drupal.org
find a group gathering in your area which helps a great deal when it comes to being able to bounce ideas off of others and a get a tighter understanding of how drupal works.
In the forums high level support becomes difficult. Not many have the time to rewrite the themeing handbook into a single forum posts while explaining the "many" different ways to pull off any one idea.
I've learnt more from trial and error and working with other users questions then I have from the answers to my own questions.
My suggestion is to simply set up a site. Start creating your content. you can theme a little bit at a time.
Yes, Thank You
I guess I should say something now about how I learn -- you know, everyone learns differently, and it seems like Drupal is the kind of thing that must be learned *totally* first-hand, like riding a bicycle. No amount of forethought before the actual act helps.
Perhaps unfortunately, I am the kind of learner that excels in school, the kind who processes "verbal" information. Thus, I've usually tried to reconnoiter something before getting into it. Like learning archery, I'd read up on it first before ever touching a bow. And so that's how I've been approaching Drupal, much to my discouragement! Seems like Drupal is the sort of thing that must be tinkered with, like cars.
But I still suspect that that's because Drupal adopters are mainly "geeks" or "mechanics," people who have no use for, and are even impatient with, the careful schoolboy way of learning things. They just get into it, and thus expect everyone else to, without benefit of proper introductions and exercises -- same as I the dutiful schoolboy had initially expected those proper introductions and skills-building exercises.
Nevertheless I *will* be putting up a site soon and see where things go...I hope to have better things to post in the weeks or even months ahead.
If I ever learn Drupal, I will be creating a site that's specifically geared towards newbies who don't just want to jump in and sink or swim, for people who prefer the clean "classic" style of learning such as we get in school where you have very nice and proper introductions to something, with every scenario worked out -- and explained in *plain English!*
Here's to that happy day.
Don't stop, believin'...
Don't give up on Drupal after just 2 days. As in most areas of life, patience and hard work are rewarded :D
Have a looksie at my recent post to a themingly-distraught newbie: http://drupal.org/node/282773#comment-922348
(haha just say "themingly-distraught" out loud a few times and you'll be ready to continue with a good mindset)
I've tried to boil things down there to the most basic stuff you need for a theme to work. You can plug those few snippets of code into the appropriate spots of ANY template you like, whether you create it from rocks and berries or download it from another CMS or open source template site... and viola, you have a Drupal theme (in Drupal 6 you also need to make the yourthemename.info file ... just model it after any other).
Yes, there are more complex areas of Drupal theming when you get to the point of needing to customize "that one tag, that one, right there!" when the tag in question is one generated by Drupal core or a contrib module (and do you "really" need to customize that tag? Might CSS be the proper solution in some cases?... after all, Drupal core produces tableless, semantically correct HTML)... but nonetheless master the basics first and if you ever need such granular theming, well then by then you'll be ready to take on overridable theme functions in template.php and/or bring in Contemplate module to the rescue. I've made many sites with Drupal and very rarely have to spring for the trickier stuff.
A few recent findings from the DrupalPlanet feed...
How I converted an HTML template into a Drupal 6 theme
Theming Out of the Box
And no - a CMS is "not" meant to make web development easier. It does in fact (no matter which one) make it quite a bit harder (though on the bright side, definitely easier than writing the whole framework from scratch all by yourself). Oh for the good ole days of static HTML, and not having the faintest notion or care about usability, functionality, etc. But the web developer's painstaking efforts behind the scenes result in functionality, features, and usability that makes it all SEEM easy to the end user.
Get a *AMP system installed on your local computer... WAMP for Windows, MAMP for Mac, XAMPP for x-platform, whatever you need. It's easy - download one, install, and you have an instant environment running on your own computer where Drupal can be installed. Install Drupal on it... no, install several copies of Drupal on it. And go to town. Try out modules. Try out theming. Install stuff. Break stuff. You will learn. And it's a lot faster to learn on one of these than bothering with getting it all up on your web host. While you're at it, throw in some installs of Joomla, ExpressionEngine, CMS Made Simple, etc - see what suits you.
Learn about CCK and Views module. Try to find their counterparts on any other CMS ;)
Oh and yes, Drupal is in fact the Second Coming of Sliced Bread :D
(says Sony, Universal, PopSci, FastCompany, Divx, Ubuntu, MTV, Adobe, FedEx, Playstation, Yahoo, Harvard, GreenPeace, and... well you get the idea - they all use Drupal in various ways)... http://blip.tv/file/912733
-- David
absolutecross.com
Yes...
But I have only so much time to learn this, that, and the other. At some point, I have to run a cost/benefit analysis...and right now, the forecast is cloudy....
On the one hand, sure, it could be as great as you (and Sony, and Harvard, and Adobe, and all the other big corporations who can hire Drupal engineers) say it is.
On the other hand, there's no clear way to get from here to there.
I'm remind of the Aesop's Fable about all the mice convening one day to decide once and for all what to do about that nasty ol' house cat. They brainstormed and brainstormed until finally someone comes up with the brilliant -- brilliant! -- idea of hanging a bell around its neck! Much celebration ensued...until it was realized that a new problem arose: how to hang that bell around the cat's neck!
So after reading for two days straight (not to mention paying $30 for 60 minutes of Drupal promo/fluff from lullabot.com), I'm wondering...okay, fine, great...but how do I actually do all that???
Well, like I'd said elsewhere, here's to David Mercer's book, arriving Wednesday or Thursday...but already I hear that it doesn't really cover theming (basically only mentions it), and that's the first thing I do when I design a website, make sure the visuals are in place. So what would be first on my to-do list when creating a site is now going to be last -- if at all, if I ever get the dang hang of it -- the looks, the visuals, the theming.
BTW, thanks for your links...I will check them out; I'm especially interested in your "Theming's Not So Hard" post...I know I'm just grousing, but it's precisely because I want this to work so much that I bother venting at all...I guess I'm just tired of tinkering, after having spent all of February, March, April, and May learning xHTML, CSS, and JavaScript (especially JavaScript)...I want to get to work already!! And now here's something else to learn again, only it doesn't even have a bunch of how-to books on it!
Drupal is a CMS with a very
Drupal is a CMS with a very high learning curve. But that's why there is such exhaustive documentation and a great community to help you out right here. It just takes getting your hands dirty and seeing what comes out. And know that you have a bunch of excellent Drupalers in these forums to give you some direction.
___________________
Preston So
Web/Print Designer
Monarch Digital, Colorado Springs
My near-dead non-Drupal site
___________________
Preston So
"Documentation"
I have to take some issue with the claim of "exhaustive documentation"...it's precisely the crux of my problems, the root of my frustrations: I don't see any! None that make sense to me, I mean. Now I see some pages I understand on this site, but most of them I don't. I get the basic idea of Drupal, and that's why I'd been so excited Saturday and most of Sunday, but my first concern is site visuals, or theming, and I see that it requires something arcane...and that's all I gather from the "exhaustive documentation."
I think Drupal has an unnecessarily high learning curve due to the *poor* documentation for non-"geek" newbies. You can't just document something's feature-sets and specific commands for enabling those features. For the non-geek newbie there's a whole context that needs to be provided first.
An analogy, if you will.
As a fitness enthusiast, I've always wondered why one couldn't just live off protein powders and vitamin pills. After all, we know what nutrients we need, right? Buy a protein powder that's got the necessary carbs and fats, and a multi-vitamin pill with all the known vitamins and minerals, and we should be able to live off of that, right?
As it turns out, there is a wider biochemical "context" which we only have the slightest inkling of which is also necessary for health...it isn't just a matter of these macro and micro-nutrients, but the *biochemical context* in which they interact (phyto-chemicals and so forth)...*that's* why we cannot simply live off protein powders and vitamin pills, because these do not begin to reproduce the greater biochemical background which is also necessary for proper nutrition.
Similarly, the "exhaustive" Drupal "documentation" seems like but so much protein powders and vitamin pills so far...they are "correct" in themselves, but do not supply some necessary wider context which would enable non-geek newbies to follow along. It's almost like getting a white paper on digital camera technology when what you want is a manual on how to use that camera.
Annnnnyyyyywaaaaayyyy...here's to Mercer's book tomorrow.
I'll have to agree...
This is one of those touchy issues where if you complain about it, someone will say "then do something about it" but it's hard to jump in without a clear roadmap and having so many cooks in the kitchen, yet not knowing who the cooks are.
And having said that, yes, the documentation is hard to find. When I'm researching something here, I can have a dozen tabs of content in just trying to find what I need. It's scattered and hard to locate. So I do hear your frustration on the documentation.
~silverwing
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zinzinny - more than tv (alpha)| MisguidedThoughts | showcaseCMS
"Cardio vs. Strength"
Ah, thank you for commiserating!
I'm afraid the predicament is a familiar one to those who like to exercise: you can be very good at endurance (cardio) exercises or you can be very good at strength (anaerobic) exercises, but you can't be really good at both simultaneously.
Likewise, I suppose the Drupal ninjas are really great programmers but don't have much appreciation for the human dimension of things, the way the famous mathematician Alan Turing never understood poetry and didn't bother reading any outside of English literature classes.
I think part of the problem may also be that Drupal seems to be updated so fast -- since its debut seven or eight years ago, it's gone through six full versions, with a seventh again next year! -- that there's not the time for would-be documentation-writers to catch up or stay on top of things: by the time they might have mastered enough of the current version, a new one is slated for release!
Also, I think a lot of Drupal documentation is "list-oriented," a big ol' list of features and commands and so forth, whereas what's really needed is an interactive task-oriented approach...I really mean to do that online "Drupal-newbie 'wizard'" one day...instead of documentation per se, it would be an online program (simple JavaScript if/then branching routines should do the trick) which advises how to accomplish specific tasks...rather like the Microsoft WindozeXP Help Center....
What a relief...
I'm not the only non-geek/newbie saddled with this frustration! (By the way, I just found a wonderful tutorial on Youtube about installing the FCKeditor--visual and step-by-step...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1suHskbL1pE) (If you don't know the FCKeditor yet, here's the webpage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1suHskbL1pE)
I think a tough issue is that Drupal doesn't perform just one function, and people are using it for so many different, unique projects. After the initial installation, the next step could go in one of several different directions, depending on what your goal is.
Like you, I want to create a website that will be used as a resource of information. Somebody else might want to set up a straight blog, or a site to display digital art, etc...so the necessary steps depends on what the user wants to do.
To create a tutorial website, first Drupal would need to be categorized, 'Here are the top 5 (or 10 or 20) functions of Drupal. State that it can be used to create this and this kind of site, then ask what kind of site are you planning on building? And, depending on the answer, the tutorial would branch off from there.
You want to create a simple blog? Then you can use this theme, these modules, etc...and the steps would be a, b, c.
For an online store the theme and steps would be different. And so on.
Aside from having a personal, one-on-one type of training, Drupal might be best taught using a tree diagram, which I'm sure would be very time consuming.
Joe
Exactly!
That's exactly the kind of tutorial website I'd do (one day -- soon??), where it's like an opinion survey, where responses keep narrowing down the list of available options until a straight-forward do-this-that-and-then-that "recipe" is given (again, rather like WinXP's Help and Support Center that's included with the OS). And it would also be like an online quiz where answers are given immediately after a choice is made, instead it wouldn't be "answers" as such that are given alongside the "recipes" I'd mentioned, but "context" explaining, for those who care to read further, why the steps recommended had been given....
It would be a very simple thing to program, simple JavaScript if/then/else branching...but I've got to learn Drupal first! And yes, you're right, another very big part of the reason why documentation is that the system was designed to be open-ended, such that it lends itself to no quick and easy documentation (a bit like trying to document life, give life advice, since everyone's got a different destiny, like how every Drupal user has different web development goals in mind.
Another problem is that so much of what's available is bound up with what Theme is being used to present the site! So I really stand by my assessment that Drupal makes complicated things easy (blogs, forums, and other such "automated" tasks) at the expense of making easy things complicated (if not impossible, depending on the Theme being used -- like trying to position something in a manner, or at a certain spot on the screen, not provided for by the Theme's predetermined parameters).
For instance, right now I'm going to start yet another thread, this time about how -- even whether it's possible -- to have something "permanent" on the homepage when using the default Garland theme...I would like a permanent greeting/welcome message, as well as having content below it be dynamic and constantly refreshed...now there's no indication of where, in the "documentation" floating all over this place, I might find such a capability, see; and that's what makes it so confusing for a newbie: you can't even trust that there is an answer, that your question even makes sense! Which mine wouldn't, here, if Garland had been set up to only allow dynamic content on the home or front page....
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:shaking head:
A) a themes predetermined parameters can be changes. look up "regions".
B) any theme can use static or dynamic content.
C) as far as the ranting about Drupal making certain things more difficult (impossible). Feel free to test other CMS's before you make blanket statments about what drupal does or doesn't do. Otherwise you are comparing it to thin air.
?
a) I'm not sure what you mean by "a theme's predetermined parameters can be changed"...I mean, sure, if you hack into its PHP, but of course I wasn't talking about hand-coding....
b) Again, I'm talking about working with what is given, with an absolute minimum of programming or scripting.
c) Speaking of "absolutes," I should note explicitly that I am not referring to relative ease-of-use, but "absolute" ease-of-use; that is to say, not whether Drupal is better than another CMS, but whether it is as good as it "should" be...it's like saying that the United States is a great country, perhaps the "best" in the world on overall terms, but nowhere near where it "should" be...likewise with Drupal, and especially its documentation for newbies, which is really the topic here.
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A) thats not exactly the case and your presumptions are what is limiting your growth.
B) there are MANY users here on d.o who do things with limited to no knowledge of PHP. Yes if you chose a theme that is not a framework but an already highly customize theme. Then you are going to have a tougher time manipulating that theme. You're intent on using garland which was introduced in Drupal 5.x and is indeed highly customized already. Thus you have to work within the confines of the already existing customization. I perfer wireframe type themes. Like zen.
C) if you find something that suits you better than drupal then by all means use it. I understand criticism, but I first think you should know what you are talking about before you criticize, especially when using generalized blanket statements that don't include any specifics. Reading a few books on xHTML or CSS don't an expert make. Constructive criticism is helpful to the entire community, especially when you offer advice on how to go about fixing the issues you run into. Otherwise you just look like you are spewing venom.
keep in mind: there are very few people who support the forums on a regular basis. Once you burn bridges with those people, you tend to go ALOT longer waiting for answers. its all about karma. You get what you give.
...
a) Well, I can only speak of what I know, and I don't know Drupal well enough to say what's possible and what's not -- only it does seem like Drupal should add to my web development attempts, and not force a trade-off, which is what it appears to do at the moment, where complicated PHP things (blogs, forums, etc.) are made simple but simple things (like page layout and positioning of design elements) are sometimes made considerably more difficult, if not impossible, given the peculiarities associated with any one Theme or other....
b) I use Garland because it is what's available out-of-the-box and I need to get a site up and running immediately for personal reasons. I will certainly investigate the Zen Theme next, you can be sure of that!
c) Talking about my difficulties with Drupal is not a matter of finding something better than it to use. It is simply talking about my difficulties with Drupal. I need not to know anything else about Joomla, Mambo, or whatever else is out there. My comments are about Drupal, not about how Drupal is better or worse compared to another CMS/CMF. That is another conversation, a separate, though related, topic. But I am not talking about that. So bringing in comparisons only muddy the waters. Like if you got "90" on your exam...what does it mean if you were the only one in the class and no one else did any better, if you knew that it was an easy exam?
As for pissing people off in the support forums, I'll just have to take my chances. The whole promise of the internet is that things are done without consideration of class, race, religion, etc. It is only a mild extension of that ethos to assume that people will interact according to "inherent values," and not according to their individual "operating systems" that are based on class, race, religion, and so forth.
Said "so forth" including questions and comments about Drupal and how it does what it does and why.
I'm here to discuss ideas, not engage in personality conflicts. If an idea is of no import, I won't be offended that no one is interested, and neither should anyone be offended that an uninteresting idea is raised.
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I'd like to know, just exactly what you have found considerly more difficult or "impossible" to move at the theme layer ?
Considerably more difficult than what exactly? creating your own theme ? you can of course do that.
...
Since you've been following my threads all along, you should know what my difficulties have been. If you truly do not, then what's the point of telling me about how I might not find other CMSes better or worse??
When I speak of difficulties, my reference point is to hand-coding HTML and CSS. As I've said on numerous occasions, including just now in the post to which you were ostensibly responding, Drupal makes PHP-stuff like blogs and forums easy at the apparent cost of making some HTML/CSS stuff much harder, if not impossible -- unless I create my own Theme, sure: but insofar as I'm a newbie (and this is the other "reference point" for my questions and comments), I can only work with what comes out of the box, so it's quite besides the point of a conversion on my difficulties with Drupal to suggest I create my own Theme, use another CMS, or even write my own CMS.
Again, it's like saying, if you're so smart, why don't you run for President/Prime Minister/God...not really an answer to anything.
Now if people are tired of reading of my difficulties, and the attendant frustrations, then they will tune out of their own accord, and that's all right and proper in a free marketplace of ideas. But because this is a "free marketplace of ideas" I think it would go against the whole ethos of such a market to start "pandering" and pretending to be someone I'm not, just so I can get someone to help me with my difficulties.
I have problem "x." I post asking about "x." I will also, as a natural consequence of being myself, marvel at "x" and why it should exist.
And that's all. I don't claim anything else, and I hope you don't take my words to mean more than what they state.
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Thanks for the clarification. Thats a long winded for "I've found nothing impossible, just difficult to grasp.
Yes I've followed your other threads because I want to see you succeed. However, I don't see you taking much time to use the tools others mention or ask specific questions. Instead you force us to read through criticism after criticism to find the meat and potatoe question. Which isn't all that fair as many of us have better things to do and there are many other questions in the forum that need to be answered. We help because we want to help.
The idea of comparing other CMS's is simply to show you what is and is not.
you can have "total" control over your themeing. For the most part. Drupal doesn't produce much embedded HTML, though I believe there is still some buried based on other discussions I've seen.
There are many wire frames. Drupal tries to cater to developers and standard users.
With each release of drupal all things get batter. Install an older release and compare since you don't want to inspect other CMS's. Yes there is a long way to go, but on the other hand core has come a long way.
Lastly, if you didn't give yourself enough leadtime on the project of building your website then that isn't the fault of drupal core. It's merely bad planning on the part of the project manager. Not realizing he/she would have to learn a little something before they can see on screen what they see in their imagination.
Haste makes waste.
Long-Winded?
That's like dismissing human beings as simply being bags of water.
I think you misunderstand if you think what I meant was that "I found nothing impossible" -- I've specifically stated that I don't even know what's possible and what's not with Drupal!
I'm really not sure what there was to clarify, anyway. My difficulties with Drupal sound like the common experiences of a newbie. Now if you were really inquiring into the "emotional depths" of my frustrations, well, I've told you that I need to get the site up immediately, and that sense of urgency fuels in no small part my apparent impatience with how "long-winded" some things can take with Drupal.
If there's just one thing I want to leave you with, it's that I have nothing against Drupal. Drupal is safe "with" me. I'm not going to start an anti-Drupal movement or something here. I'm not going to run for political office and try to ban Drupal. I'm simply having a hell of a struggle with it.
But you know what? If you visit my site, you'll see that everything looks fine. The basic must-have structure is in place and ready to go!
I'm just struggling over the remaining 20% or so, mostly involving site visuals more than site functionality.
And this being a support forum, I don't imagine coming here to post about my successes (duplicate searchboxes resolved!) as opposed to little puzzling details (now how can I position the search box along the header??)....
And all that's a "long-winded" way of saying "don't take offense where none is intended; I have nothing against Drupal."
If you'll notice, I'm not upset like I was when first trying to learn about Drupal and trying to install it. In fact, my Drupal experience has been only all of one week! So things will be better for us all sooner than later.
Thank you once again for your patience and help. I don't mean to frustrate anyone else with my frustrations, and I will certainly continue to improve my posts' crap-to-content ratios.
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you've been told what to do to figure out how to locate and move the search box. I've even told you it probably needs a float: right, since it is floating: left.
IF, i have the time I may give you the necessary code needed to locate and change. Though doing so doesn't teach you any thing.
Yes
Yes, you gave me a hint about the searchbox, and I haven't yet found a solution to it even though I've looked in Firebug at the CSS. But I only mentioned that as an example, not a new gripe.
Believe it or not, simply giving me the answer teaches me a lot. I learned how to draw by copying. Simply copying. It was only later that I could begin to think about grid-perspective and shading...but at first, it was straight copying of another illustration.
And I really can't say this enough, but thanks for your time. Really, it's getting better. I'm no longer foaming at the mouth about Drupal installation! Just muttering a bit about the visual positioning capabilities.... ;-)
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So basically, you want me to visit your site, locate the css, give you the correct properties and post back a step by step, handholding procedure.
I'm away from my development PC at moment and don't have access to my tools. When I can, I'll try to give you what you can't seem to find.
Ach!
Sorry, I wouldn't quite say "I want you to..." in the sense of an HTML/CSS invalid -- but it's often more pedagogically efficient to provide answers and explanations instead of playing intellectual cat-and-mouse!
(Not that I'm accusing you of doing that; just saying....)
Truly I appreciate all the help I can get. Hey, so what do you think about my site's footer, "technological backend courtesy the volunteers of Drupal 6.3;" and its About Page acknowledgement, "major, major debt is owed to all the wise and patient people of Drupal and its Support Forums, who have made it such a powerful, useful, and ultimately liberating experience: software that frees up the wetware, I say! Without the selfless passion and love of such volunteers, I and numerous others would still be hand-coding simplistic online pamphlets"...?
See, I'm really not anti-Drupal at all! Yeah I was mad as hell about the documentation and installation my first three or four days, but a week later now I'm already reduced to muttering only slightly above my breath! ;-)
But you do agree that that searchbox looks ridiculous up there all by its lonesome on the far left-hand corner of the screen, right? Hey, you know what, I was thinking that when the Google Translation Whachamacallit Thinggy Module is "6.x-approved" I'll have little flag icons visitors can click to have the content (and not just menus and links) translated into whatever language is represented by the flag! Real 1998 of me, what? =D
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It's your site. if you want it at the top on the right then thats where it should be.
My opinion on the search box doesn't matter. Personally, I don't like it at the top at all, but thats personal preference.
Search Box Placement
I thought of putting it up on top 'cause I'm not Google (or even Cuil, for that matter!) and so "utilities" like that would seem to suggest a more natural place for themselves along the periphery of the screen. The two sidebars are still rather central to content-placement, at least for my site, whereas putting it in the footer would obscure the search box too much even for my tastes!
Thanks again for keeping me company, as it were, at this rough start of my Drupal journey. I will create my own Drupal newbie tutorial one day and put it on my site, because I want others in my industry to know about how they can use it. I've already introduced it to a black belt who's working on the Rutgers University martial arts club's website (yeah, Rutgers University), and it's on his to-investigate list of web projects!
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I'd enable it in the header. like here at drupal.org. But again, it's your site you design it as you see fit.
Yeah, That's It!
Rather like how it's done here on drupal.org, upper right-hand side (though mine would be above the links on my site, as opposed to beneath the tabs here; Garland places it far-left, automatically).
Well, it's a relief knowing it could be done at all...thanks!
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glarland placed it above the header ? or you custom coded it above the header ?
Actually, It's *In* The Header!
It's in the header 'cause that's where I'd placed it under Administer-->Site Building-->Blocks...just wondering how I can get it to align right.
Doing it for you, one time
I'm only going to do this once for you, because you don't seem to be trying to use the tools that have been recommended to easily do this yourself. After this, please try to use the tools at your disposal (e.g. Firebug, and knowledge of CSS). I'm going to write out the steps I'm taking verbatim and hopefully you will see how it works and start doing this for yourself. Note that none of this is specifically relevant to Drupal. It is basic CSS, applicable to all sites, themes, etc on any CMS or static HTML site.
<div id="block-search-0" class="clear-block block block-search">. Click on the word "div" in that and it will be selected, and the CSS that has anything to do with that container will show up in the right pane of Firebug.#header-region .blockid="block-search-0"which is about as specifically as you could ever target that div. You also have a little less specificblock-searchclass that is perfectly useful too. In another case for some other CSS adjustment, modifying the already-existing selector may be the better way - you decide based on the context of the situation/code.(if you wanted/needed to you could just as well replace
#block-search-0with.block-searchfor the same effect)Good luck, and hope this helps.
-- David
absolutecross.com
Dave...
Thanks, I appreciate that.
I've only just downloaded Firebug yesterday, and am still so busy with the site, even aside from Drupal...and then there's real life to attend to, chores and so forth. So, sorry it appeared that I wasn't trying to educate myself; I'm kind of attending to things piece-meal, and on a just-in-time basis, like the little Dutchboy at his dike!
I'm glad to have your instructions to bookmark, and I will refer to them soon...right now, I'm caught up with content creation. The layout questions I have only came along as I kept working on the site and seeing it fleshed out with content. That's when I'd noticed how odd it was that everything was left-aligned, with no recourse for a different visual experience. Also, it really is a bit awkward "semantically" to place "write a new comment" (and why "new" comment? How about when there are none yet? I should like to simply use "post feedback" myself) before "read more" in the front page teasers.
Little niggling things, to be sure -- but niggling all the same for a perfectionist!
Anyway, thanks again. You know I mean that!