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By dv-design on
I found drupal looking for a solution to my expectations for a site. I wanted to have forums, blog (only my posts), and a front page/framework that provided the content of my pages to users in the best possible way. I was using phpbb3 for forums but was finidng integrateing a blog and integrating the style accross a site to be too hard.
I decided to test out drupal and am immensly impressed with the ease of installing mods and themes.
However one daunting reality has occured to me, now that ive found a package that can offer a solution to my needs, i realize i know nothing about how to set it up or tweak it.
Im sure i could get some basic content going and use the themes available, but i realized after a bit of time and effort that i couldnt even modify the background and logo/banner the way i really wanted. Not because its not possible or hard to do, but because i dont understand the structure and process for doing so yet.
I spent weeks digging through the phpbb files making modifications and edits to tweak my site the way i wanted, i learned alot about how they structure thier files to work with each other.
Comming to Drupal now, i realize i have to relearn that all over to be able to develop a site to my taste and needs.
Id like to skip the trial and error process i used for learning in phpbb and would much rather read a consice guide or buy a book even. I know i can learn to do it, i have a little experience with html/css/php...enough to reverse engineer and make modifications to my likeing, but not enough to write from scratch.
Are there any suggested methods or resources for learning to make sites in drupal (im specifically using 6.4).
Comments
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places to start:
The theme developers guide in the documentation area
google, where you will find a plethora of sites offering tutorials and many video casts. ie: drupal dojo
there are books on the market that cover module building and themeing for Drupal 6
and as always using the forums and asking specific questions
There is a learning curve to drupal that gets lessened with each release. Every script has some similarities and differences in it's structure.
when you are ready to begin digging into core, use the developers guide in the documentation area as well as api.drupal.org and investigate the groups at groups.drupal.org
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http://drupal.org/getting-started is a good place to start. :)
Michelle
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See my Drupal articles and tutorials or come check out life in the Coulee Region.
By the way
Your situation of not really knowing where to get started happens a lot. If you have any suggestions for improving the beginner docs, they're always welcome. By the time people get to the point of feeling comfortable contributing, they're usually well past the beginner stage. Your "newbie" perspective is valuable so don't be afraid to speak up and say "X was confusing. If you say Y it would be easier to understand." You can add comments to most handbook pages to suggest clarifications or even add whole pages yourself if you're feeling ambitious. :)
Michelle
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See my Drupal articles and tutorials or come check out life in the Coulee Region.
Yea ive already decided to
Yea ive already decided to write up installation direction for my configuration and host as the directions where way off and much more complicated for this then they needed to be. Its just a matter of when i have the time to write it.
As for making suggestions, i know that the confusions is less to do with drupal and the documentation and more to do with my ignorance on the subject. I think the most confusing thing starting out is the naming structure for things like nodes, and not having a default home page where you can see what things look like before you create content.
As i dig around in the theme files now im also noticing that there is no html files, only css and php...which means i have an additional learning curve because outta the 3, html makes the most sence to me.
I think as i brush up on php and learn the file structure and naming conventions ill do ok, id like to expidite the process by finding the best sources for information on the subjects specific to drupal.
Thanks for the help.
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That's exactly my point. It's not just your ignorance; that happens to most people when they start out. We need to make explanations for that readily obvious. When you were confused, where did you look? Did you find the answers there? If not, we need to put them there.
Sorry if it seems like I'm harrassing you. We just get so many new people of the "OMG I don't get it spoon feed it to me right now" variety that when I saw you were intelligent and willing to learn I latched on to you. LOL! Seriously, we really do need the perspective of new people. Once you start to "get" Drupal, it's really hard to go back and put yourself in a bewildered newb's shoes.
Actually, it's not that bad. Take a look at those tpl.php files. They're mostly HTML with PHP for the dynamic parts. this tutorial by Sepeck really helps with grokking the system, I think. It's for 5.x but a lot of it still applies.
Michelle
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See my Drupal articles and tutorials or come check out life in the Coulee Region.
For me the frustrating part
For me the frustrating part is i can tell that drupal is a powerful and useful tool, but i dont know how to utilize it yet. I only know programming in a broad degree, essentially from a conceptual standpoint and digging around in the files myself. I know it says you dont need to know programming to make a site, but id assume to make a decent site it doesnt hurt. The worst part is i really know what i want, and im not willing to settle for less...but i dont really know how to accomplish those goals. I see a theme i like and immeditaly think to myself "i like it, but x,y,z would need to be changed if i use it..." and i just am not capable of making said changes at this point.
I think a huge general, underlying misconception (i know i kind of made this assumption), was that drupal was kinda a WYSIWYG development workspace. Where you would drag boxes around and punch in content quickly, and work in a very visual way.
You go from that direction of thinking to what seems to be a very illogical connection of admin controls and front end...then realizeing that creating the content is not visual at all, actually there is no visual comparison to see the effects of your actions.
I spent about an hour trying to figure out right after installation how to view my "default homepage" expecting to see some default boxes on my screen and maybe a defualt welcome message. Once i realized i needed to create some content before i could see the layout i then spent the next 30 mins or so trying to figure out how to view it without the admin controls...
Comparing the structure of phpbb to this is also confusing. In phpbb if i wanted to create a custom page id copy a set of php and html files, the structure of which was that the php file brought a few html files together to create the page. This worked in a logical sence in that if i wanted to edit a header, i went to overall_header.htm, the body...page_body.htm. This was easy to mod but much less dynamic then drupal.
However i cant logically figure out the structure of drupal. It seems that the concepts kind of the same, but much more emphasis is place on php, and the html doesnt come from a file but from your input when your on thew site publishing things. almost as if its php > drupal > inputed html.
Kinda like drupal acting as a dev workspace or something.
Ive spent the last day or day and a half just trying to figure out how to change the banner/logo/background. Every document and discussion ive read and applied has not worked. I feel like im in the twilight zone here, i even went as far as renaming the image i wanted as the background to the name of the default and deleteing the old one and the odl one still shows!
So far drupal gets A's for almost everything...ease of installation, ease of adding themes and mods, potential...but its lacking in some hard to explain ways. It should be and could be more intuitive. The admin controls and the front end NEED to be seperate. having an interactive tutorial would be nice as well, either an included demo video or an included template or something. Kind of a do this to create your first page in drupal lesson, thats laid out not in general terms, but in follow these steps to get this result terms.
I noticed this in the instructions, and it seems to carry over in most of the documentation. Its all written to encompase the widest range of people and scenarios...the problem with this is the wider you go the more vague you have to be. When people want to know how to do a specific thing, they dont want braod or vague.
Ima stop my rant here, i just realize i started writting a boook :(
PS: php is so alien to me, whats with the $ signs and ? marks, its like the programming version of a rap song...
I know it says you dont
Definitely. I know a lot of people say you don't need to be a programmer and that's true to a point. But being able to program even just a little bit opens up a ton of possibilities with Drupal.
That never goes away. LOL! 3.5 years later, I still find myself knowing exactly what I want something to look like and not knowing how to get there. There's always something new to learn. Knowing what you want helps, though, because then you can focus on figuring out how to make it happen.
Wow, yeah, that would definitely throw you for a loop. The Panels module is the start of something like that but it's not there, yet.
Yeah, I think the default page is an area of confusion for a lot of people. There is a set of instructions that show up but I don't think that's really the answer. People expect to be able to edit that page somehow and the idea that the default front page is a list of nodes is a very foreign concept.
In a simplistic sense, the theme drives the site. So look at your theme files. page.tpl.php is the master controller of the whole page. If you want to make broad changes, they go there. Think of that as yourpage.html in a static site. All the PHP bits insert the content. So if you see
<?php print $breadcrumbs ?>that's where the breadcrumbs get printed. If you want the breadcrumbs on the bottom of the page, you move that whole bit down there. It can be overwhelming to start but the Drupal theme system is incredibly powerful and allows you to make your site look completely different from someone else's.Hmm... There are theme settings in admin where you can check whether to use the default logo. Did you uncheck that?
No, they really don't. A lot of new people say this because that's what they're used to but they always come around and realize that the integrated admin is very useful. Give it time. I bet you'll come to love it. :)
This comes up again and again. We really do need some very specific "recipe" tutorials at a basic level. The trouble is no one has stepped to write them. Unfortunately, I don't see myself having the time any time soon. :(
That's the blessing and the curse of Drupal. You can do anything with it but it's hard to write docs for "anything".
LOL! This isn't a rant. This is good stuff. I've pointed this thread out to a couple of key people and one suggested crossposting to the usability group. If you like, you can make a post here: http://groups.drupal.org/usability or I can make one and link to this one.[
Hehe. I come from Visual FoxPro which isn't so full of symbols so it took me a while, too. It's worth checking out some learn PHP sites and at least getting the basics, though. You don't have to write modules but being able to do a simple "if this variable print this otherwise print something else" is very handy in theming.
Thanks for taking the time to write up your experience,
Michelle
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See my Drupal articles and tutorials or come check out life in the Coulee Region.
Thanks so much for writing all this down
You're doing a great job pointing out the kind of docs we're missing. Something that explains the Drupal concept, right? Maybe this http://drupal.org/node/265726 helps a bit, though it's still quite abstract. We're working on it! And this is not ranting but a very valuable perspective from somebody new to Drupal. It's not often someone takes time to write things down so extensively when they are still in that stage. Thanks again.
There's not much i can add
There's not much i can add to Michelle's most excellent exposition, but I do have one little tidbit regarding the location of drupal's admin functions-- yes the way admin is arranged in drupal is much better than having it separate like joomla does and you will come to appreciate it. However, the first module I enable on every site is http://drupal.org/project/admin_menu. I definitely recommend it.
and definitely thanks for taking the time to write up your impressions, there's some great info here.
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"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day.
Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." -- Lao Tzu
"God helps those who help themselves." -- Benjamin Franklin
"Search is your best friend." -- Worldfallz
Thanks everyone, i apreciate
Thanks everyone, i apreciate the info...ive been reading like its my job for the last hour or 2, and already feel a bit better (but still have the derr in headlights look on my face). Michelle if youd be find enough to cross-whatever id apreciate it, if i attempt that who knows where itd end up.
While im sure there are advantages availible to integrating the admin controls throught your site, the startling problem there is when you first install drupal and think to yourself "ok, now how come my admin controls and my home page are the same...omg, i hope all the users wont see this! well if they dont what do they see!" And thus the panic ensues. Maybe itd be best to allow themes to control this in some way? like by default leave the controls on a seperate page, but allow the option to integrate them for advanced users?
The best way i can explain what ive learned so far (correct me if im wrong) is the drupal is a modular (dynamic) environment, and what most people are used to is a static environement. What i mean is that its hard for me to conceptualize (intially) that a portion of my page can dynamically exsist (even on other pages). Not knowing php and the programming characteristics of drupal, but understanding something like phpbb a bit, the 2 are apples and oranges, but they illistrate the concepts.
As i had mentioned before, if i wanted to change something it was relatively easy in phpbb because id goto the relevantly named file (logical file structure is hugely important, just like relevant url names) and edit the static portion of that file to change the static area and part of a page.
However my guess is its not that way in Drupal and rightfully so, because the content is dynamic, but it makes it hard when i wana edit x...because there is not a default area of code for that to be (unless im mistaken).
Another issue i notice that lends to confusion is the different versions being "live" at the same time. Even within the same version the revisions seem to function a bit differently. As much as everyone wants to tell me if it says 6.x or 6.1 or 6.4 a theme should work, im finding that to be untrue.
Ive installed maybe 10 themes and tried to configure about 4 of them, and not one has worked 100%. Some of them cut off the themes page so you cant click configure, some mess up in minor but annoying ways (like when creating content and using the expanded options at the botoom, they will start overlapping...you have the title over the next section floating in your fields for the above section.
Easy things like logo and banners and background should be so easy to change and they arent. I literally tried 20-30 aproaches to changing these things and nothing worked. i check, i unchecked, i put in paths 1000 ways, i went into the style.css file i went into the tpl file i played around and had no luck changing any of it, in any theme.
I finally managed to change the logo by uploading, but i would much rather use a path to the logo file on the server. Themes with background images or banners should have similar options for changing those images just as you would chagne the logo. And when i put the path in instead of uploading, it should work. Right now thats eating me up, i wana change the logo/banner/background and i cant. I actually want to go a step further and rotate the banner and backgrounds randomly. I had a js file to do this on my php boards for the banner, but i have no clue how to do this in drupal.
So far not to take away from any help given, this has been the most useful by a long shot... http://drupal.org/node/120613 ...
This is the type of guide that should be given, a step by step do a then b then c type approach. While reading that, within 10 mins, i had created the pages for errors (which account for 66% of my sites content atm). I Realised that much like in windows, my user account and the admin account are seperate in ways, i created an admin group (how annoying there isnt a box for 'select all') and assigned privledges. I had already figred out installing mods and themes, but this guide woulda made that even easier for me had i came accross it first.
While im starting to better understand the modules and nodes and other termonology, i have to go back and review that because they are foriegn ideas to me and are the basis for how drupal seems to operate. I also found the diagram on the second page of the themes guide helpful for understand which files manipulated what areas of the page. http://drupal.org/node/171194
Ive got a ton of ideas (mental visualizations) of what i want in my site, and im sure they are all possible and remotely easy, but for now i want to understand how drupal works, learn it hands on bit by bit, and deveope each idea one at a time. Im not working on any real deadline here, even though id like to do it asap. Im a firm beleiver in doing something right the first time...
And in saying that id just add, "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." Im glad to see that the community pays attention to the newby stuff instead of brusing it off. If you get a ton of posts saying that something is wierd, wrong, confusing, or not right...chances are it should be changed, because in the end perspective is everything.
Thanks.
how annoying there isnt a
Again, I have only a small tidbit to contribute-- see the http://drupal.org/project/adminrole module which makes this automatic.
Also, don't confuse individual theme bugs with version incompatibilities. All software has bugs to one degree or another-- themes are no different. But they're not "version incompatibilities" (i.e. 6.x - 1.1 of a theme is not "incompatible" with drupal 6.4), they're just bugs. Always use the most current release for the version family of drupal you are using (ie use 6.x themes & modules for 6.x drupal and don't worry about the dots). Sometimes module or theme developers will fix a bug in the dev version and tell you to use that instead. Also note, because of the limitations of admin screens with their wide tables and such you can specify a different theme that will be used when you're on admin pages. Many people do this, especially when the main theme is fixed width (it's one of the options at admin/settings).
Also, there's a great many very good screencasts at http://drupal.org/handbook/customization/videocasts-- i found them to be outstanding in terms of getting my head around drupal. Well worth the time.
===
"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day.
Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." -- Lao Tzu
"God helps those who help themselves." -- Benjamin Franklin
"Search is your best friend." -- Worldfallz
O wow i had never thought
O wow i had never thought about using seperate themes for admin pages, excellent suggestion. Ill check out the other stuff in due time. Thanks.
I hear you!
I hear what you're saying about Themes - it's been one of the slower areas of progress for many Drupal users, like me. So many great-looking themes, yet every one I try will have *something*, big or small, that shoots it down for my intended purpose. (Which isn't a swipe at the generous theme contributors; after all, they weren't developing it for *me*!)
In the end, I find there's no solution like rolling up the sleeves and learning the guts of it - enough CSS to make desired aesthetic changes (not too hard with a good CSS editor!), and even enough PHP to try out the tweaks that helpful people suggest in documentation or forums. It's all intimidating at start, but little by little the know-how builds.
Theming aside, as a general learning aid for Drupal, the Documentation here is definitely full of good stuff. On the general concept of "How does Drupal work?", I like this page:
http://drupal.org/node/176252
and this quote: "The basic concept of a CMS (content management system) like Drupal, is that you don't create pages as a whole. You create bits of content and other elements (nodes, blocks, header, navigation...) and you configure the CMS so that it puts your page together on the spot."
http://drupal.org/node/242360#comment-794045
On my site, I have some basic how-to pages intended for non-technical 5.x admins (i.e., clients): http://www.drupalace.com/EDAM/ . I think there's some useful stuff in there, but of course it's far more limited than the drupal.org documentation.
Also, I've collected some links beginners may find handy: http://www.drupalace.com/links
I have the impression that you're already beyond some of the simpler stuff I link to above; here it is anyway for future beginners visiting this thread. In any case, I've enjoyed reading some of your observations about Drupal!
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Easy Drupal Admin Manual, Drupal questions, other stuff for the newbie: http://www.drupalace.com
Yea i was able to invest a
Yea i was able to invest a fair amount of time to learning some basics about drupal this last week and have managed to fiddle and learn a bunch while practicing on my test site.
Unfortunatly for the next few weeks i will be able to devote little to no time to it as i have other pressing matters. However i htink over the course of time i will learn it and understand it and be able to build my site up just the way i want it.
Everyones been very helpful and drupal seems like an excellent tool for designing websites that offer dynamic content. I really look foreward to digging in and learning to use it to accomplish my goals.