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By justchecking on
I hate to say it, but this is exactly how I feel. Everything is so hard to achieve in drupal and so unintuitive. I installed cck module only to have custom content type that would let me add name, image and description pairs 4 times in a node that can be accessed from the secondary links. But no luck. CCK puts all names first and then all images ...
rather than puting "name, image, description" 3 times. Every small thing like moving the logo down requires hours of hacking....
[Heine -I have locked this thread. Please everyone, be nice to your fellow Drupal community members. For those of you that missed it: the OP apologized.]
Comments
Your opinion is your own.
Your opinion is your own. It has something called a learning curve, and once achieved you can create more robust applications then any other open source cms. If you don't like the default layout of how the content is shown then get views and contemplate and template it.
Not much of the community will really care about your opinion, as it's obvious you have no development skills, and should probably just go elsewhere.
don't like the way it works, make your own.
I've used PHP Nuke, Joomla, Xoops, and now Drupal. I'll never go back to any other. Rather spend the extra hours, and get something more robust and flexible. And I believe there's a module for pretty much every task possible, and the best ones are free (compare that to Joomla).
Drupal does not suck
Drupal does not suck. You just haven't learned how it works yet. Drupal is a powerful tool. You didn't learn to read and write in only a few days did you?
I just spent all day yesterday fixing a hacked Joomla site for a friend. I went to countless 3rd party sites trying to dig up fresh copies of all the modules he had installed (Joomla modules are not centralized as they are on Drupal.org). Every time I work with Joomla (and various other CMSes) I grow more thankful for Drupal.
If you're in a hurry to overcome the newbie learning curve, I recommend signing up for the $25 Lynda.com Drupal course, which is quite good. Or if you have a day to spend on it, a free day pass is available. If you prefer to spend time instead of money, feel free (I recommend spending a little money and saving time though, myself). Also read my (free) guide linked in my signature for improved understanding of CCK and Views.
The CCK question you're referring to above is a bit vague, but I believe you just haven't learned yet about theming, which makes what you're asking a piece of cake. There is a guide for that on the link on my site I mentioned.
Instead of insulting the hard work of thousands of people, I'd encourage you to be patient and learn how it works. Throwing insults here will most likely just cause the people who would have helped you to begin ignoring you.
-- David
absolutecross.com
[new guide/lesson in progress: Creating a CCK and Views powered Drupal site - feedback welcome]
Indeed not
If it was as difficult and counterintuitive as you suggest, it would be hard to account for its evident popularity.
For some bizarre reason, even people like Sony BMG and MTV Europe are using it.
Perhaps their web developers didn't take hours of hacking to move the logo down a bit; they probably wasted even more time learning CSS or something...
Pete.
Misery loves company
Every instance the phrase "drupal sucks" appears on the drupal.org website (as of this writing)
Its an odd expression, to say something "sucks." I suppose in certain circumstances an insult employing that particular word might qualify as a double entendre.
If taken literally, the phrase "drupal sucks" suggests that it pulls, or draws, something from a person -- intellect, perhaps? Maybe brain cells? Or inspiration? Certainly drupal sucks php memory. What else does drupal suck? I think this is worthy of further exploration.
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http://music.bwv810.com
http://classicvinyl.biz
http://davidhertzberg.com
I am a writer, researcher and solo drupal freelancer.
I too find these threads
I too find these threads very interesting bmv. It seems in the drupal community, very much like the world at large-- there are essentially two types of responses that result when human beings are confronted with a challenge. In one case the person responds negatively by faulting, ridiculing, and denigrating the challenge itself while in the other the person responds positively by rising to the challenge and exhibiting enthusiasm at the prospect of increasing their knowledge and/or skillset. By and large, these "drupal sucks" posts seem to spring from the former. I would venture to say however, that it comes as no surprise that the latter tend to be more successful.
I used to think there was something that we as a community could do to assist those in the first group but I'm starting to believe that no amount of documentation or usability improvements will sway them. Drupal will always require some effort and reading of documentation on the part of the site builder to be able to use it fully and successfully. In order for documentation to be successful two things are required: first that one can read, and second that one is willing to read. More and more it seems the first group is unwilling to put in the effort required regardless of whether or not the required documentation exists. Regretfully, I'm not sure there's anything to be done about that.
===
"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day.
Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." -- Lao Tzu
"God helps those who help themselves." -- Benjamin Franklin
"Search is your best friend." -- Worldfallz
Thanks for your
Thanks for your observations. I am a humble drupal amateur, and while I love to build sites and help people, I have only the most meager experience with code. Thus, my contributions to this great project are limited to the time I spend here on these forums, trying to assist one person at a time.
In sum: It is easy to forgive the clueless, the overwhelmed, the newbies. Drupal is nothing if not an exercise of the un- (or under-) excersised portions of the mind. It is, however, frustrating to encounter a post that in one fell swoop diminishes -- indeed, denigrates -- the work of brilliant, and generous, developers who have created modules that allow those with no development experience of knowledge of php to use the ingenious code that comprises the drupal core. CCK is nothing short of a work of art, a masterpiece of coding ingenuity. Yet, we are told it, and drupal, are worthless. If in 2008 one cannot readily use a CMS, then something is terribly wrong. With the CMS.
Plus ca change....
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http://music.bwv810.com
http://classicvinyl.biz
http://davidhertzberg.com
I am a writer, researcher and solo drupal freelancer.
I had avoided this thread so far
But I had to reply to this comment...
If Drupal needs anything, it is more people like you. The majority of people are more than happy to take the code and the free support, but not respond in kind by helping other newbies with the knowledge they have gained. So thank you for being part of the solution.
Also, answering questions is an excellent way of learning how Drupal works (it worked for me). Even if you spot a question that you don't know how to answer but have an inkling, you can do some quick research (eg on the API site) to learn what the answer is or at least get them closer to the solution. Even a vague answer that points in the right direction or one that eliminates some possibilities is better than no answer at all.
These things are jigsaw puzzles - there is never one single piece of knowledge that solves or diagnoses anything. It is lots of little pieces that by themselves don't seem to matter, but once you know a certain amount of these little things lots of other things just start falling into place.
I now just ignore the rude complaints - it's not worth the effort. Answering them is just rewarding that behaviour at the expense of the polite majority.
Take my advice - ignore them too. Or (like me) you'll probably burn out your goodwill, and stop helping people so much. There are still plenty of overwhelmed but appreciative newbies to help out.
The last thing anyone wants is for people to get the idea that rude rants are the only way to get attention.
--
Anton
I ABSOLUTELY 100% AGREE
I know what you said was said in relative haste, but it's pretty true.
Any idiot should be able to use a CMS in 2008. If there was some comprehensive troubleshooting booklet with common problems, that would automatically make Drupal 100% awesome. At this point, it's more neg that pos.
Any idiot should be able to use a CMS
Well yes, they should.
The problem is that they are, by definition, idiots.
Go figure, as our transatlantic cousins are wont to say...
Pete.
I've said it before and I'll say it again
I've said it before and I'll say it again. A CMS, language framework, etc does not and is not meant to "make web development easier". It does not make it easier (though sure it's a whole lot easier than writing your own CMS from the ground up). And sure you can easily install it and have a website with quite a lot of features, instantly install new themes, etc. But in some ways it makes it much much harder for the developer, as any highly complex and powerful system would (versus tossing together a static HTML page and calling it a day). The end result is much much better, more powerful, fully featured, etc, and far easier for the "end user" as a result of the developer's efforts. It's harder on the developer for the sake of the "end user" having a more simple experience. Should it be harder than it has to be? No of course not. Is Drupal "harder than it has to be"? In some areas sure it is, and is always improving (but not too hard in the areas you brought up, which are pretty simple and well documented if you read a bit about theming and understand at least a touch of CSS, as any web developer should). Overall, no it is not "too hard" though. There is an expected learning curve for harnessing such power (and the average Drupal user doesn't usually even approach the parts of Drupal are "actually" hard... whew it used to be hard a few years back, and has been improved exponentially in countless ways). If you don't need the power, then check out Wordpress, Joomla, etc. As an example, building a car is a complex process, requiring detailed knowledge, understanding, and preparation in order to execute correctly. But just because it's difficult doesn't mean we should stop building cars, switch back to bicycles, horses, etc. If your goal is to build a car, you first overcome the learning curve required to do so.
It's interesting that your account was about 19 minutes old when you posted that (sodafountain). Seems unlikely that someone would have enough understanding of Drupal to come to such a conclusion after 19 minutes. Unless you're just the same person trying to reinforce your opinion by posting as someone else, that is. And if you say you "are" someone else and you do have enough experience for a valid opinion and just now registered in order to state that opinion, then I'd still disagree - if you only just now signed up and haven't asked a single question to the very helpful community to help clarify things you don't understand, then your lack of understanding is no one's fault but your own.
Sorry, don't mean to sound snippy. I just wish people would simply "ask" about what they're having trouble understanding rather than blaming Drupal. More often than not the answer's pretty simple, and documented (or even has video guides haha). And often enough it's someone complaining that an intricate pre-designed template they're using is hard to understand/modify (which is the theme's issue, not Drupal's).
-- David
absolutecross.com
[new guide/lesson in progress: Creating a CCK and Views powered Drupal site - feedback welcome]
Every small thing like
um.... no. That's what someone says who hasn't done even the most cursory learning of the drupal theming system. There are several free screencasts (as well as a free copy of the theming chapter from the Pro Drupal Development book) over at http://drupaldojo.net that could have you theming pages in minutes. This doesn't obviate the need for some knowledge of theming html with css however (which has nothing to do with drupal).
Drupal has a learning curve-- no question. And it can be insanely frustrating (i'm still new enough to remember it vividly) but that's not an excuse to insult the product and everyone who ever worked on it.
It's ok to be frustrated... it's ok to express it... this post is not ok. Like one of the other posters said... all you've accomplished is alienating anyone in a position to help you and make yourself look foolish.
===
"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day.
Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." -- Lao Tzu
"God helps those who help themselves." -- Benjamin Franklin
"Search is your best friend." -- Worldfallz
Also
"um...no" gets nothing done either.
But
"um...no", followed by useful advice such as WorldFallz provided, does get things done.
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Easy Drupal Admin Manual, Drupal questions, other stuff for the newbie: http://www.drupalace.com
Obviate
The mere fact that you used the word 'obviate' is, by definition, what I'M talking about. This is not Dickensian England.
This is not Dickensian
Lol, no its not-- I'm not exactly sure what that has to do with drupal.
If your point was supposed to be that i'm sort of knowlegdeable techie insider you would be wrong there as well. I'm not a developer-- I came to drupal with some html/css but no php or other CMS knowledge at all. It took me months to get up to speed-- and during that time I was continually and agonizingly frustrated-- yet I still managed to not insult the people that spent 1000s and 1000s of hours developing the very thing I was using for free.
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"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."
-- Abraham Lincoln
Mere
It's England here in the UK. We say 'obviate'. We use 'mere' too. It's, like, we took the trouble to learn the language :-)
28 years as a programmer, and I'm still learning.
Pete.
What mythical creatures are said to live under bridges?
Obviate :)
Sorry my friend sodafountain, but "obviate" is a word commonly used today (well perhaps not if you work at a gas station or in fast food). And you being picky about someone's word choice and ignoring the rest of his entirely solid and kind advice is what "we" are talking about. Please go read the Documentation. Watch some videos. Read a few articles. Then come back here and let people know at that point where you're stuck. Until then, any further uneducated claims as to how "sucky" Drupal is... will fall on deaf ears.
-- David
absolutecross.com
[new guide/lesson in progress: Creating a CCK and Views powered Drupal site - feedback welcome]
This Is Not A Reply
Primarily, I wanted to second the validity of the original poster's frustration. I have no reason to believe that (s)he and I have the same specific quibble(s!) - so I did not mean to hijack the thread - but I saw no reason to sit by during a knee-jerk onslaught of philosophical blah blah. For me that is the end.
...knee-jerk onslaught of
Exactly what type of response was an intentionally incendiary subject like "Drupal sucks!!" supposed to elicit?
And I suppose following up to a post that had nothing to do with you with a personal attack directed at me for my vocabulary was a constructive response?
One can't yell "fire" in a crowded arena and then claim unfair surprise at being trampled by the resulting stampede.
===
"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day.
Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." -- Lao Tzu
"God helps those who help themselves." -- Benjamin Franklin
"Search is your best friend." -- Worldfallz
Knee-jerk onslaught of
Knee-jerk onslaught of philosophical blah-blah, eh?
One really should *think* before acting (or, in this case, writing).
An intelligently phrased (and even polite) plea for help will obviate the need for philosophical, or even didactic, replies, reduce the incidence of incendiary missives on this website, and in turn elicit more than a mere one-sentence response.
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http://music.bwv810.com
http://classicvinyl.biz
http://davidhertzberg.com
I am a writer, researcher and solo drupal freelancer.
=-=
It took 43 weeks as a community member for the OP to make such an educated assertion.
Oh!
Clearly a valid, detailed and reasoned critique then.
I retract my previous comments.
The question about mythical creatures and bridges still stands, though :-)
Pete.
=-=
: )
Sorry for the outburst
I have already used Drupal now for 2 of my sites, so obviously I like it. Professionally I am a systems programmer who codes for embedded systems in C and Assembly. I have played around with perl, php, ruby, ruby on rails a bit in the past, but never on a serious level. My PHP knowledge is very rudimentary. I do understand that Drupal's extensibility comes at a price. It certainly is not easy for a newcomer to come up with original sites with just web based configuration, which kind of makes sense.
My outburst was caused as I was trying to creating a "about us" node linked to secondary links which has a summary bio of our company's founders. For this I got cck and tried to create a custom content type "bio" that lets the administrator add multiple instances of "name, image, description" pairs. But cck only creates one such pair per node. If you configure multiple values for a field, it puts all instances of that field together. In essence I need CCK to repeat a "group(name,image,description)" multiple times. I guess I will have to learn enough PHP to hack CCK itself :-).
My apologies if my post hurt anyone's drupal sentiments :-).
apologize accepted, the
apologize accepted, the forum has understanding for your frustration :=)), the learning process is hard for everyone
but I'll tell you no cms is easy to learn
I have worked with ezpublish in two years and it was much harder to learn even basics than in drupal
I think if you would like to programme the modules then the drupal is right choice because as i see it, it is meant to expand your system after you needs and preferences.
Use fieldgroups to separate
Use fieldgroups to separate the bio information. (See how easy that was?)
See this to do the opposite:
http://drupal.org/node/119102
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http://music.bwv810.com
http://classicvinyl.biz
http://davidhertzberg.com
I am a writer, researcher and solo drupal freelancer.
great way to get the problem solved
I think he has found a key to get his problems solved at this busy forum( unintentionally though) very very fast.. See so many posts with the word " drupal sucks".
I must advice you, you are just a beginner. If you find drupal is framework for creating few personel pages and showing it to your mates of its dynamic side.. then you are gonna write "drupal suck"
But if you are creating a site with unimaginable no of users, having vast content and require a team just to craft the content. the you say "Drupal is Awesome"
I started with my own gaming site www.gamersden.in
Feel free to ask anything you want to know "how I did this?, how do I do that etc.."
http://www.himtuna.com : Himanshu Thakur | Tech Site
http://www.himanshuthakur.com : Himanshu Thakur | Personel Blog
Thanks for posting back and
Thanks for posting back and clearing up the misunderstanding. As for your particular issue, what you want is called a compound cck field I believe. There's 2 ways I know of to do it: first, you could use the http://drupal.org/project/flexifield module or second, code it yourself as you mention. For that see the helpful article: Creating a custom compound field for CCK.
===
"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day.
Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." -- Lao Tzu
"God helps those who help themselves." -- Benjamin Franklin
"Search is your best friend." -- Worldfallz
Instead of going on and on about this how about responding to..
my post on how to display a node, not the form to create or edit it?
Which post is
Which post is that?
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http://music.bwv810.com
http://classicvinyl.biz
http://davidhertzberg.com
I am a writer, researcher and solo drupal freelancer.
While I love Drupal, and
While I love Drupal, and think its a great system, I do agree that many of its features are counter intuitive. Drupal has a while to grow in terms of being user friendly.
With that being said, Drupal is a great system. Once you get the hang of it, it works just great. Like with everything, it has a learning curve.
Excuse me?
Have you ever purchased anything from the drupal community to use drupal CMS/CMF nor paid theme to have access with their brilliant masterpiece?
I think you didn't..
So if your mother did not teach how to say thank you, just shut up and bare with yourself not having patience in learning something great! We don't need your destructive criticism.
Looser!
Nobody taught you how to learn
Nobody taught you how to say thank you
Nobody taught you how to be patient
Requirements for
Requirements for Drupal
level 1. Using a drupal website
-Know how to switch on/off your PC
leve 2. Maintaining content on drupal-site:
-Skills comparable to working with office-style applications
-Some knowledge of HTML helps
Level 3. Installing and maintaining a drupal-install if site is more than simple blog
-Good knowledge of HTML/PHP/SQL
Level 4. Developing for drupal (create your own modules etc...)
-Good knowledge of HTML/PHP/SQL/XML/Webservices/JavaScript/JQuery
-Have to be able to master and understand all of the content of Pro Drupal Development
Level 5. Developing Drupal
-Previous plus "as much as you can get"
This is how I see the difficulty-levels in Drupal.
Problem starts when you initiate a level without having having the proper skills. That will be very frustrating. However, knowing you will have to invest and considering the tremendous amount of information available out-there, it not difficult to go-up to level 4 from scratch. I started 14 months ago with only little knowledge of HTM. But I never expected to master it all in a weekend.
If you don't posses the skills or you are unable or unwilling to learn them, have somebody install and run your site for you and enjoy it all from level 1 and 2. Or don't do Drupal.
The important thing is to realise that level 2 and 1 is really easy. I run a corporate site and 70% of the content is maintained by people who never saw one piece of code. Before drupal everything was done by a webmaster, so i think that Drupal succeeds into making it easier to maintaining a site. But realise that a maintaining the site means maintaining the CONTENT, not the SITE itself. Driving or washing your car is very easy, but building and maintaining it will always be much tougher.