By jt6919 on
I used the title I did to try and attract some attention - maybe I'll get some helpful hints as a result. I setup Drupal on my site to replace a 5 year old custom PHP/Perl/static HTML version, been running for a few months now. I'm finding that some very basic things are just a big pain in the ass because Drupal is not as mature as I thought it was.
I'm using Drupal 4.5.2 on www.smorgasbord.net.
- Very few decent themes are available, and even those are riddled with bugs. Is there a decent repository other than what's available on Drupal.org?
- HTMLArea is buggy and conflicts with many modules and themes - is there a better way for rich text content authoring?
- img_assist module sucks - doesn't work in Firefox at all....please show me a better way for inline images in content
- taxonomy_dhtml also sucks - a dhtml mess. Is there a better way to display categorization of taxonomy on one page in a more organized manner?
- A way to promote an item from a feed from the news aggregator page to the home page would be nice - can this be done?
- How can I customize the HTML title tag for any given page?
- How can I get custom metadata tags for any given page? (don't give me "why would you do that" arguments, just answer if you know how)
- Are there any decent modules for comprehensive stats on one page like what you get from Webalizer, AWStats, etc.?
- Is there a way to post content to blocks in timed intervals?
- Is there a way to post content to a block on just the home page or just certain pages other than resorting to "side content"?
Answering any one, all, or multiple questions would be great. Thanks in advance.
[edit: -sepeck: fixed the 'sucky' lack of <ul> tags around the <li> so the layout wouldn't suck]
Comments
So does your post
Asking nicely would be too. Having a better subject wouldn't hurt either.
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http://www.opentravelinfo.com
http://www.aguntherphotography.com
here! here!
my vote Is not to reply to complaint and gripe posts. hopefully others will agree.
These are all good questions. Answer
They should be easy to answer.
Can they be answered?
IOW, I don't see this as a gripe post at all. These are all things I have wanted to do. For example, I, and my contributors, are using flickr because the handling images in Drupal is too darn hard.
I'd add some:
1. Why can't I have tags like Scoop does?
2. Why do I have to manage the CSS for each module separately? Can't a coding standard be imposed on the modules? (Say, put everything in a div whose class is the module name?) For example, archive and event calendars have different CSS. That's ridiculous.
Two more
1. If everything is a node, then why can't I add comments to outlines or classify them?
2. Where's the graphic representation of stats as with statcounter or sitemeter?
Two more
why can't I assign content directly to a vocab term?
why can't I have sub-terms of terms? guess what I'm asking is why the taxonomy can't be more like an index of a book.
why can't you do:
Vocab: Computers
Term: Hardware
Sub-Term: Motherboards
??
What do you mean?
What do you mean?
Of course, you can assign content directly to a vocab term and have sub-terms of terms. This is basic taxonomy function. It isn't fair to complain when you really haven't tried out taxonomy at all.
To do what you want:
1.) Go to administer>>categories>>add vocabulary and set Computers as the vocabulary
2.) Click on the 'add term' link and add 'Hardware'. Remember to choose <root>(Computers) as your parent.
3.) In the next screen (automatically set for you to add another term), add 'Motherboards' and choose the parent as Hardware'.
That's it.
When you create content, you can assign the node to either the term or sub-term as you please.
good explanation.....but...
I have tried out the taxonomy - and used it extensively and added many vocab items and terms. I've even read much about it in the forums and the online documentation.
This is perfect proof that taxonomy setup and definition *is not* intuitive. Using your advice, I was able to assign sub-terms to terms. This is great!!
However, I do not see how to add content directly to a vocab item.
If I have a 'parent' vocab called "General", how do you assign content to just the highest 'General' level and not a term? The only options are defined terms for that vocab item and ?
You don't.
This is -- admittedly -- one thing that's easy to get confused about taxonomies. When you create a vocabulary, you are creating a *type* of taxonomy terms... Not the first term in a hierarchy. Let me explain:
Vocabulary: EARTH
Term: Asia
Subterm: China
Term: Europe:
Subterm: England
That's wrong. Why? 'Asia' is not an Earth. 'Europe' is not an Earth. They're locations on Earth. That's why a vocabulary would best be set up as follows:
Vocabulary: Location
Term: Earth
Subterm: Asia
Sub-Sub-Term: China
And so-on and so-forth. Each vocabulary is a holding bin for taxonomy terms of a particular type. Those terms can be arranged as a flat list, a hierarchy, or (in version 4.7 of drupal) a huge soup of random keywords -- like 'tags' on a blog post for example.
Each vocabulary applies to a partiular list of node types. For example, you could use Flexinode to create a 'vacation spots' content type. You could create Vocabularies for 'price range' and 'location', and set them both up to apply to your new content type. The taxonomy terms INSIDE of those two vocabularies, though, are what you'd actually attach to each individual 'vacation spot' node.
--
Eaton — Partner at Autogram
so the answer...
so the answer is that you don't assign content to the parent because you aren't meant to.
So if a had a vocab: "Web" and the terms were "Coding", "Browsers", "Search", and "CMS"....and I had content entitled "Future of the Internet", and didn't want to create a new term that you may never use again (or want to avoid a bazillion terms), I need a "dump-term" for each vocab item like vocab: "Web", term: "General".
I understand your Location:Earth:Asia example, but maybe I don't want my taxonomy to be that rigid....meaning as I write content I want to be able to quickly bin it. Assigning the proper categories should not take a chunk of time out of publishing content. It sounds as if the 4.7 version of Drupal will work better if it supports tag based categorization - which seems better attuned to the way I want to publish content.
You're right.
There were a few solutions to it in older versions of Drupal -- I believe a 'taxonomy on the fly' module existed that let you create a new term for a module at the time it was posted.
In version 4.7, though, Vocabularies set up as 'free tagging' vocabularies let you enter comma-delimited lists of terms manually at the time you write the node content, like a 'keywords' field. The terms that exist already are linked to the node, and those that don't are created, then linked to the node.
Using these in a hierarchy, though, can be somewhat trickier though. It's possible, but managing the hierarchy if it has hundreds or thousands of terms in it can be tricky.
--
Eaton — Partner at Autogram
I use that...
I use taxonomy on the fly modules now to create new terms as I post content, but it hasn't helped much.
I will be very interested in seeing how 4.7 free tagging vocabs work
...meaning as I write
There used to be taxonomy on the fly module for this, but it hasn't been updated to 4.6
Great answer!
Eaton, this is a great answer that addresses one of the primary stumbling blocks that makes the taxonomy system difficult for so many people to understand and make use of.
Please, please get this into the handbook — don't change a word.
-zach
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harkey design
: z
If I have a 'parent' vocab
Oh! I see what you mean.
The short anwser is that in drupal, neither the vocabulary itself (the highest level, that is) nor a term is actually a node. There are a couple of solutions depending on what you want to do:
1.) If you just want to add a node to the highest level of a vocabulary, try the vocabulary_node module available here
2.) If you are trying to replicate a traditional, hierarchical site using taxonomy, and think of the vocabulary (highest level) as a kind of index page for that section with intro paragraphs for descriptions etc., use the taxonomy_vocabulary module.
now this, I will look into...
now this I will look into.....yes it's true that I would like to find the best way to replicate a traditional hierarchical site using taxonomy, including intro paragraphs and descriptions.
this is also why I'm very interested in modifying HTML title tags per index page, and also keyword and description metadata tags. I've read many frustrating posts about metadata with little solution.
By keyword, I assume you are
By keyword, I assume you are referring to them as they apply to search engines. You can try the node (key) words module
will check it out...
I will check out this module - but does it allow editing of the actual metadata fields per page?
Not too sure as I haven't
Not too sure as I haven't actually got around to trying it. But I would guess, yes.
You either have answers - or you don't know how...
So you think my post was a complaint / gripe post? So what's wrong with that? I think that my complaints are valid after spending the last 6 weeks trying to solve them with forum posts, online manual, and modules. Unlike most posts like this - I give 10 specific issues that need solutions. I'm not just bitching for the sake of it.
Rather than complaining about my title (which I stated was to gain attention) - maybe you could offer assistance on one of the points.
Also to anyone else who has a "he's a complainer - wah, wah - don't help him" comment, save your breath. If you can't handle a little tongue in cheek humor, maybe you have a bit too much starch in your shorts. I have spent a massive amount of time trying to configure Drupal - and at this point in time, my opinion is that it sucks (until I can get it do the items in those points)...hence my title.
So, back to the original questions - can Drupal do any of these things, or not yet?
Please, if Drupal sucks for
Please, if Drupal sucks for you that much, consider using a different CMS.
4.5.2 has KNOWN and published security vulnerabilities. I suggest you upgrade sooner than later.
Several of your points are A) wrong, B) have solutions C) not feeling charitable enough anymore. I already fixed your formatting.
-sp
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Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
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Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
ooohhhh.....not another one.
and yet another - "use a different CMS" post. why does that not surprise me.
- yes I know about the security fix
- if you know of wrong points - show them
- if you have solutions - show links to to them
thanks for fixing the formatting. if rich text editing was supported out of the box (which it seems many aren't fans of here), you wouldn't have had to do that.
everyone is so bloody defensive....."what'd you say 'bout my Momma?".
"Sucks" is a descriptor - not a permanent label.
I have the answers
First, it's clear that your problems stem from expectations. As you wrote on your website,
Now, I don't code PHP, but I have installed well over 100 Drupal sites. Best practice is to test the functionality of open source software before committing to it in a production site--Drupal or otherwise. And from my experience, core distributions are generally more stable than contributed modules, especially in Drupal's case since many contributed modules are fairly young.
As for the title of your post, well, creating controversy might get some attention for your post, as it did, but it's not the best way to solicit response from those that are most knowledgeable about the software.
Nevertheless, I don't buy the sincerity here if you have indeed spent "the last 6 weeks" posting to the forums. Strangely, you seem to have two usernames, jt6919 and another, both about 4 hours old??? Why the two usernames, so you can post nicely under the other? What username did you post your other queries under, or did you change usernames because they were inflammatory, too? And if you haven't posted to the forums previously, why didn't you ask earlier instead of building up a tally of problems and posting them under the "sucks" banner?
And yes, I know the answers to some of your questions. But I've just exhausted the time I have to spend at the moment.
answers are good...
my expectations stem from what I perceive a "CMS" system to be, having worked with many CMS products (open source and not) for the last 5-6 years. Things like inline images and comprehensive stats, most people would think would be 'in the box' of a modern day CMS. I think you'll find that a large majority of the influx of new users think the same way.
I don't believe that I ever stated I've spent the 'last 6 weeks' posting to the forums - I said I've spent six weeks reading forums, installing modules, and looking at handbooks and guides. Like a good little user, I tried to read and configure all that I could on my own before posting to avoid RTFM syndrome.
I don't have 2 usernames that I know of. I have used the Drupal site many times over the last 2-3 years, as I've had many test instances of it installed to a sandbox sub-dir on my site. I don't believe I had anything posted under that ID. Before starting this thread, I tried to login with what I thought was my old ID unsuccessfully, and after waiting 15 minutes for the password reset to arrive (which still hasn't come), I decided just to create a new account.
So I haven't posted before, and there was no intent to deceive under 2 id's present here. Also - just as there are various perceptions as to what Drupal can do / is for, my attempt to "elicit discussion and response" (which I have) is your equivalent (and some others) to be "inflammatory". I built up the tally of problems for one thread rather than creating 10 of them - something I don't think would be very productive.
Hope that answers any questions you have, and if you have time to answer any additional unanswered issues - that would be great!
my mistaken assumption
I had notice jtpratt, too, as a user. My mistake.
Now this may help. Your assumption was incorrect that Drupal should be, out of the box, like many other CMS's. When I first looked at Drupal a few years ago during the PostNuke fork, I switched to Drupal because all of the other CMS's I examined had similar feature sets, but Drupal had evolved in a completely different direction. The taxonomy/node system, RSS for many pages and taxonomies, the built in news aggregator, collaborative book, Slashdot-style moderation, blogs for all users--no other system had even a well-developed subset of this feature set. Very cutting edge as social software. It was if all other systems I tried were variations of Windows, and here was Drupal offering the alternative, the Mac approach, an entirely different approach to content management. Drupal core was also super lean, super stable, and super fast. When I switched from PostNuke to Drupal, the page load time was significantly shorter. All of this is also a result of Drupal's genesis, which is quite different than most other systems. It's stress on development has always been different.
At that time, though, image manipulation was not a part of Drupal. So all image use in Drupal is very young in the scheme of its development. There were also very few themes back then for Drupal was focused on community and collaboration. It's only in the last year or so the theme engines have evolved to allow sophisticated theming. Also in the last year or so, Drupal has greatly accelerated in popularity, so there are lots of new ideas represented in contrib modules and themes which have yet to develop to full maturity. So, for instance, the permissions modules are great new additions to Drupal (OG, node privacy by role, taxonomy_access), but at the moment, I still feel they are a little young in the development cycle and will become more user friendly and robust in the next couple of Drupal versions.
Meanwhile, in answer to your questions,
HTMLarea was not very stable in 4.5, and development has since moved onto other applications (fckeditor and tinymce).
I've never liked taxonmy dhtml. There is a taxonomy_html module in 4.5 which I find worked much better, although I believe it needs updating for 4.6/4.7. You might also try the taxonomy_browser.
To move a feed item to the front page, there was a contrib aggregator module which made all feed items nodes. Unfortunately, this introduces a lot of complications (I find that it makes the site less usable, eg all of the feed nodes show up in the tracker). As far as I know, development of it has languished. In the meantime, research the blogit feature that used to be available for feed items. Makes it easy to create a node from a feed item. I seem to remember discussions in the forums about adding this feature back in.
Block management has been significantly upgraded in 4.6.
Don't use fanastico. Upgrading Drupal core is generally very easy. The hard part is upgrading contrib modules that you may have installed and also upgrading themes may take some work. Fantastico won't be helping much with that.
"To move a feed item to the
I can see the untold damage now that this could do....however this scenario makes me think again of Drupal against specific use cases and features to meet those needs.
i.e., say I'm blogging. I will enter many newsfeeds in my Drupal site for things I like to read and keep up with. Many things that come in that feed I want to either promote the home page, quote or reference in my post, etc.
I guess I'm saying, this again illustrates that "if I'm a blogger - I expect these things", and "if I'm replacing a static web site with Drupal I expect these things" and what I hear a lot of is "it doesn't meet all your needs", "you can't do everything with it", and "if it doesn't do it - write it yourself".
Ways to use Drupal, and enhancements binned against those specific uses seem more logical than trying to define what is important to everyone each release. To prevent what's happenned to other CMS' (forking), maybe API's need to built on the core - so you could have a "gallery release", a "blogging release", a "taxonomy release" and so forth - allowing focus for use based scenarios and at the same time accomodating Drupal adoption and influx of new users.
ask not what the open source community can do for you . . .
Any of the features you request could potentially be built into Drupal. The question is, who is going to do it? My sense is that 80-90% of the regular code contributors on Drupal do consulting or otherwise code for specific client-based needs (perhaps their job or organization they are working with). This tends to affect the direction of development of Drupal in that those needs end up generating new enhancements. This does not mean that other concerns, like yours, would not be welcome, but it takes someone to code them properly and present the code to the community to get it integrated.
Drupal doesn't do all of these things, and if you would like it do more, than code it yourself or hire someone. Not because people don't think they are necessarily good ideas, but because everyone has their own priorities for what is important and they work accordingly. So it might be nice if Drupal does more things for bloggers, but someone has to make it a priority and generally that's done based on individual needs/client needs.
As for different releases, CivicSpace has already created a site profile module and there have been efforts to refine it further for general release. If this is important to you, then you might work on that project. Of course, your priorities may be elsewhere.
So this approach is correct. The problem is that people come in with expectations that "x" ought to have been done or someone ought to code "y." Drupal is a pretty open community where anyone is welcome to try and do those things. People just need to realize that everyone else is already busy working on what they feel is important. Rather than asking what Drupal can do for them, it's better to see this as a community that one joins and then contributes to make improvements wherever they see fit.
Well, right now you are
Well, right now you are sounding very negative but those are good questions. I'll try to answer a few.
For themes, there aren't too many out there and it's hard to find a good repository. http://www.langmi.de/themebrowser has a bunch of themes solely based on css customizing.
Instead of img_assist, I use the upload module and this patch: http://drupal.org/node/26288
To have blocks on only certain pages, go to administer > blocks > configure that block and there should be an area where you can specify if you want it only to appear on certain pages.
Most of the other features would only require small amounts of code and minimal modules to do. If you don't know how to code or have trouble (like me), I think it would be easier to hire a professional.
You see, Drupal is more of content management framework. I think most users create their own modules and themes. If you want everything built in, there are other CMS which are bloated and have larger module/theme repositories.
a good reply!
you know, the virtual world is a funny thing. If these people were right in front of me the sentiment would probably not be the same. Because what "appears to sound negative" to me is just stimulating conversation and some debate. For those that can't handle brutal honesty - maybe my posts aren't for you.
I will try your links right now - for those I thank you. I will also try the blocks trick. As for the custom code and Drupal being a "CMS Framework" - I don't buy that. Drupal is a LAMP based CMS System meant to publish content out of the box, just like Mambo, SiteFrame, PostNuke, or the dozens of others out there.
It is in some regards much farther then some of the other open source CMS systems out there. But I don't believe that one should expect to have to write custom code for such basic things like a working theme, metadata, inline images in posts, usable and comprehensive stats, etc. These are not complicated add-ons that you would expect to have to pay for or write yourself. They should come with the package out of the box.
didn't work.
I tried the themebrowser site, but it was all in german. I tried to login using my Drupal ID so I could change the localization to English - but it wouldn't let me login.
I also viewed the patch, but that seems to be a patch for attachments. How does that work/help with inline images for content?
your whishes
you want
- perfect cms for all (your) needs
- perfect theme (and it has to look awesome too)
... and so on
remember its all free and open source + very active developer community + very less bugs + very much improvements with every new version + ... +
and you demand more and more and more (and it has to be free too !!)
yes drupal lacks some good and more themes, but still its very hard to create a theme which covers all uses of drupal, its simply impossible, from Blog to E-Commerce site, try it on your own (if you are able too)
its impossible to create themes which satisfy all consumers period
so whats left ?
- a cms which is the most flexible i know of
- with a powerful theme engine, which - if combined with CSS/HTML Knowledge - is able to fulfill all needs, even with flash
- a cms which can grow with your needs
-micha
work in progress with Drupal 4.6: langmi.de
not wishes - needs of many
I do not want a perfect CMS. I want a CMS that performs most of today's modern functions people would expect using a dynamic tool vs. creating a static web site.
I do not want a perfect theme. I want a theme that doesn't have validation bugs and that floats with width and height of content. It doesn't have to look "awesome" even, it can be completely conservative or minimalist. Something the "majority of users" can use. The beef with the default them of Drupal I had was the huge font sizes, and I didn't want to go editing a bunch of stylesheets if I didn't have to. Looking for themes, many had bugs, and the one I currently use doesn't float with content.
More themes that satisfy the majority of people is possible.
Read the "Why Drupal Sucks" post, which describes the entire problem in titallating detail.
so don't use it
So Drupal sucks? Don't use it. Nobody forcing you to. Go find another CMS systems the doesn't "suck". One thing is for sure. You're not liking to get much "free" help from non-paid developers when you start by tell them that what they write sucks. That might work when you've paid big $$$ for the system and it's support but it won't work in the opoen source world.
Suggestions
For some reason the Drupal community is very defensive about it's shortcomings so your antagonistic tone is not likely to elicit the response you hoped for. That being said, I'll try to answer the questions that I can because ignoring a problem will not make it go away in my opinion.
1. The few themes that ship with Drupal do the job though they may not be suitable for your needs. Most sites likely create a custom theme based on one of the originals so you may want to do this as well.
2. Rich authoring isn't a huge priority for Drupal as far as I know but search the forums and issues to see what other people have done (guessing you've already done this).
3. Image support isn't that mature yet. Drupal 4.6 has much better image gallery support than 4.5 so you might consider upgrading. Even so, inserting images in content is still only implemented with optional modules so if img_assist (not sure if there are any others) doesn't suit your needs be sure to submit a bug/feature request.
4. It isn't really clear what your needs are here. If taxonomy_dhtml doesn't suit your needs then don't use it. Did you try the taxonomy browser module?
I'm getting repetitive here. At a quick glance the rest of the things you would like to do are not currently possible, as you've already noticed, without modifying the code yourself. If you aren't comfortable with that then submitting an issue for the specific module is the best way to get the feature you need added.
If we're doing this for
If we're doing this for free, then why would I bother to put up with attitude? There are definite areas of Drupal that can use improvements and there is a developers conference to help address some of these.
Drupal is not an amorphus entity, it is a bunch of people scratching various aspects of their wants and desires. There is TinyMCE in addition to HTMLArea which img_assist was designed to work with. If people want a better text editor, then people need to help these guys out.
Image support needs more work. There are some alternatives available in the modules downloads.
-sp
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Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
Here's another one...
Why does Drupal leave ghost nodes when you delete a user?
Drupal has great potential and offers functionality not many other CMS - like Nucleus - offer. But it has a lot of frustrating unresolved issues and is not yet as transparant and stable as Nucleus.
Will Drupal stay a project for a closed circle of developers or can it be dragged into the cold hard outside world?
I thank god every day for
I thank god every day for those ghosts after accidentally deleting a user without realizing how many nodes would disappear along with it.
-zach
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harkey design
: z
Rich editing
Use 4.6.x.
Use the tinymce module for rich text editing.
Use img_assist with image module.
Use 4.6 versions of all three modules and read the README's for them. I use them with Firefox and they work fine.
If you want Webalizer, awstats style stats, just install those programs. Drupal won't mind.
Yes, there is a way to post content to blocks in timed intervals.
If you want something that isn't there, roll up your sleeves and make it. That's how Drupal has gotten this far.
upgrade - ouch!
TinyMCE is only for 4.6.x. I don't want to upgrade yet. I can upgrade manually, and I can write code. But I shouldn't have to. I want a point and click upgrade path - and I get that with my Fantastico/cPanel install (which doesn't yet support 4.6.x). If I do a manual upgrade, then I will be stuck manually upgrading Drupal forever.
I already have Webalizer and AWStats - but since the stats are already in Drupal....something to just read them in a comprehensive format...well that would be nice.
Upgrade
Drupal 4.5.2 is more than a year old I think so you have little cause to complain about it's features. Upgrade if you want a better Drupal.
My advice is to avoid Fantastico unless you like being restricted to what your host gets around to providing you. Upgrading is as simple as ftping the files and running the update script. If you can't upgrade because you're too lazy to do even this then you'll find little support here.
some can, while others can't
Even at a year old (2004), for a development community this large and a distribution older than many other open CMS packages - you would think some of these things would be in the box already.
I can manually upgrade my Drupal to 4.6 - and I just may do that. But not a single person has said that any of my items (not yet answered) would be fixed simply by upgrading to 4.6. Not even you say that. "A better Drupal", and "addressing the items I complained about" are two different things.
Your advice on Fantastico should be better thought out. Claiming 'you're too lazy because you can't upgrade' is another open source - Slashdot style cop-out. Why would anyone with a product (open source or not) want to outright lose market share basically because "if people can't do it themselves - screw them"? The fact of the matter is that Fantastico has brought more new Drupal sites than word of mouth. The Drupal community should realize exposure is good, and adoption beyond a pure developer community takes simplicity and working features out of the box that people expect.
Fantastico one-click installs are good and get people up and running fast. The arrogant open-source nature that thinks everyone should know how to FTP and manually upgrade scripts inhibits the growth of Drupal or any other system with a development community of this mentality.
I can write code and do this manual install, but many people can't.
You misunderstood the Fantastico comments...
The problem with Fantastico isn't that it lets people outisde the holy cabal of command line users install software. That's great. It's how I found Drupal.
The problem is that Fantastico causes major problems if users try to upgrade the software it installs on their own. In addition, the versions of software Fantastico installs on your site might be new, might be old... it all depends on whether your ISP/hosting company keeps their copy of Fantastico up to date.
That can leave you with old bugs, old security holes, and missing out on new features. It's true for Mambo, Typo3, PostNuke, Drupal, PhpWiki, and any other software you install with it. I may have discovered Drupal via Fantastico, but it was worth the work to learn to install it myself.
Drupal could certainly benefit from a clean installer system, that's true. There are a number of developers working on one. I believe if you want to help out, you might contact Adrian. They have no shortage of ideas and suggestions for it on their plate, but as always -- actual coding is a blessing! :)
--
Eaton — Partner at Autogram
good to know
That's good to know as I may be headed for manual install myself, but the reason I say that about Fantastico is because I have used it to install and upgrade open source products without problem.
Sounds like you are saying Drupal upgrades may not go well with it, and I will admit Drupal is one thing I've yet to upgrade with it. If you are saying that manual upgrades from a Fantastico install won't go well - you would think that to be expected. You either go all manual or all Fantastico - not a mixture of both.
Like most things - Fantastico is only as good as it's last update, but that problem is only a complaint away from fixed with your ISP. If Dell and Gateway didn't support upgrades their users wouldn't be too happy either.
About HTMLArea
I am novice but I can suggest you to try TinyMCE. It runs well for me (4.6.3).
Themes? Think about available themes like examples. Try PHPTemplate to do a theme by yourself.
http://drupal.org/node/509
Others subjects? Drupal is not "all ready" still, but is one of the bests. The right way is you to do a feature request or participate as developer.
http://drupal.org/node/add/project_issue/drupal
Or to try other CMS.
Humm, I know. You loved Drupal but you are bored after you discovered "basic faults". It happens. But I am hopeful.
FCKeditor
There is tons of Rich text stuff out there - I use FCKeditor with no problem at all.
As for themes you have to roll your sleeves up and create your own from the existing examples - easy to do.
In-Line Images are easy done with your rich text editor or with the image.module and img_asst.module.
There are some faults in Drupal but there are lots of workarounds.
Drupal is about your skill level... that's why its so powerful its built to let you do whatever you want. Higher skill levels mean a more competent understanding of how to get drupal to do what you want. An out of the box product or point and click product would not allow the extensibility drupal does.
You may not technical enough to fully grasp Drupal right now, but if you keep practicing you will get better and its power will be unleashed.
Sigh...
That's what annoys me about open source. You can't criticize any part of it because the answer is always that you should build it yourself if your not happy with the way it is.
Which is always true of course, no matter how crappy the software gets - not dissing Drupal, just speaking in general.
Basically you're saying if you're dissatisfied with certain aspects of Drupal, that's just a sign of your low skill level.
exactly
exactly, and to gain better and exposure and adoption it must appeal the masses and not just a developer community.
the skill level comment is like saying "the lack of a feature isn't an issue - it's a benefit because you have freedom to build your own!". Well I have the "ability" to retrofit my car with a rocket engine too if I want - but skill level will probably keep me from doing it. Most are content just being a driver without also being the mechanic.
Well...
Look at it this way.
If there is a feature that you need, and it isn't there right now, it's missing because no one needed it AND cared enough, or knew enough, to add the feature.
This does not mean it shouldn't be there -- it just means that, like all open source projects, the feature list is driven by the needs of those who use it, not the needs of those who MIGHT use it. For better or worse, that's how volunteer projects tend to work.
When one of the Drupal volunteers says, 'Look, if it doesn't do what you need it to, don't use it' or 'Code it yourself!' it may seem hostile. Look at it from their perspective, though: they are not being paid to develop this tool. They dove in and helped develop it when they needed it to do something it couldn't. Some developers put a lot of their time into polishing things so non-developers can easily use Drupal. Installer systems, user-friendly control panel UIs, etc etc. But that's because they enjoy it and want to help others -- not because Drupal as an entity 'needs market share' or something like that.
If you share their passion for making Drupal more accessible to the masses, join them and help. They have no shortage of suggestions, but as always, there are precious few hands to do the tough work of designing, troubleshooting, and coding.
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Jeff Eaton | Click Here To Find Out Why Drupal "Sucks"
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Eaton — Partner at Autogram
It's not about features
My problem with Drupal is not lack of features. You're right, maybe I should learn some PHP to write my own modules.
But Drupal seems to have some unresolved issues that I won't be able to control no matter what. Like the decision posts can be left hanging in the database when you delete a user. Or the not very transparant layout controls.
Drupal's structure looked very interesting, a "new paradigm" in CMS according to one article I've read. But I'm beginning to have doubts how structurally sound it is.
I now have to decide whether to stick with Drupal or cut my losses (two weeks work) and go back to Nucleus, which may lack some features, but seems much more stable, clean and transparant.
Mmm. In my experience, the
Mmm. In my experience, the Drupal core is exceptionally stable. And it is a good starting point for building large custom sites. Once more third party modules are added onto it, naturally, the stability depends on the stability of those modules.
The issue you mention -- about 'dangling phantom posts' remaining when a user is deleted -- is a tricky one. I've never run into it, but that's because I rarely have to actually *delete* a user from the database. More frequently, I revoke all of their security roles and 'disable' the account. It's worth looking into, though.
You have a good point, though -- it's a tough nut to swallow, but knowing PHP will make your experience with Drupal much, much better. Not because it requires 'smarter' users or something like that. Rather, Drupal's philosophy seems to be 'provide a solid foundation, let users integrate the modules they want, and write code to fill in the gaps.' I've found it very effective and powerful, but it IS frustrating during the ramp-up phase.
I don't want to sound elitist at all when I say that; the world is not made of software developers! And some web applications CAN be built with a 'stock' drupal and no custom code. But for more complex stuff (witness TheOnion.com for one example of a heavily customized Drupal), coding is an absolute necessity. In my experience, it's the same with every other CMS, blogging package, etc. Drupal is just a lot cleaner than other packages I've worked with at that 'writing custom code and hacking in your own features' level.
I've mentioned to others -- if you're on a deadline and have to produce a very customized site NOW, and you're not experienced with PHP, I would not recommend trying to learn Drupal 'under the gun.' If you have some time to work with it and get to know it, or to come up to speed with PHP and some general principles of web-based software development, keep looking at Drupal. At the very least, it has some clean solutions to common web CMS problems that can be learned from.
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Jeff Eaton | Click Here To Find Out Why Drupal "Sucks"
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Eaton — Partner at Autogram
Not a solution
That's the standard answer that everybody who brings up this issue gets. You'll still have former users unnecessarily taking up space in the database. Unacceptable.
Er.
It's quite acceptable for lots of users -- and in fact was a requirement for a number of projects I've worked on. The business wanted to keep a data trail for the content that was generated, and few bytes of disk space were cheap in comparison. It's the standard answer because it's how Drupal handles it.
For your use, though, it sounds like that won't work. Is it accurate to say that when a user is deleted, you want all of their nodes to be deleted, all comments to their nodes, all of their comments, all replies to their comments, and so on, to be deleted? Not unpublished or hidden, but deleted?
It would be relatively straightforward (relatively, I say) to put together a module that adds an administrator-only 'destroy this user and all traces that they ever existed' function. I don't mean that as a snarky 'code it yourself' answer, honestly. There may be someone else around here that needs that feature and has the time to add it -- but it is a feature/enhancement, rather than a bug fix.
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Jeff Eaton | Click Here To Find Out Why Drupal "Sucks"
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Eaton — Partner at Autogram
Yes
Yes. I'm hoping to create a sprawling network site where anybody can sign up. I need the option to completely zap users if necessary. I don't need to preserve their posts and comments for Sarbannes Oxley or whatever.
There must be many community sites with the same requirement, so I honestly don't understand this Drupal policy.
Deleting users
By 'zap users if necessary' it sounds like you want to keep trolls or spammers to a minimum on your site. Assuming this is true, you might want to look around at other systems to see how they handle these types of users. Many forums that I visit (bbForums) have all troll type threads moved to a separate category and locked so people can go and read them if they like.
If anyone can sign up on your website, what is to stop the recently deleted user from creating a new account? I may be wrong but deleting user comments of users other than the one you deleted doesn't sound like a community building feature.
Not just trolls
I'm not building a hippy commune... ;-)
It's not just trolls and spammers. Let's say I sign up for a community and after a couple of months the community takes an ugly turn so I decide I want nothing to do with the website anymore. When I delete my user account I assume I'm removed from the system completely.
Or as a basic management issue. I just don't want test posts or old inactive users clogging up the system. Sure it doesn't take up much space, but I like to keep it clean. I want at least the option to control it.
I think the ideal solution
I think the ideal solution would be to present the option. So when you choose to delete a user, instead of just the standard "are you sure?" option, you would be presented with something like this:
You are about to delete user "PeterLucas".
PeterLucas has authored 256 nodes. What should happen to all these nodes?
( ) Nuke 'em all (this cannot be undone)
( ) Reassign the nodes to another user
( ) Leave them to haunt the halls of the database, they aren't hurting anyone
(Delete)
Then if you choose the "Reassign" option, you enter the name of the new user into a text field or something, and resubmit.
-zach
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harkey design
: z
I like this...
And if I remember correctly, some hooks might have been added to the 'deletion' code to allow modules to add these sorts of question-answer bits.
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Jeff Eaton | Click Here To Find Out Why Drupal "Sucks"
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Eaton — Partner at Autogram
Hmmm. I can see the benefits
Hmmm. I can see the benefits of that, definitely. Though with a large, sprawling site I would imagine that the manual labor involved in spotting and stopping trolls would be considerable, even with this feature.
Other communities have solved the problem in different ways -- the 'roledelay' module, for example, enforces a 2 day waiting period before users can post or comment on content. The 'invite' module allows new users to bypass that delay if they were invited by an existing user.
Obviously, that's not the exact feature you're looking for. But it gives an idea why others haven't pounded at the gates and demanded its addition until now. It's better, from a design standpoint, to keep orphaned content and allow those who need it deleted to do so... than to delete the orphaned content automatically and mess up the people who NEED to keep it.
Again, I'd say that you might frame this particular issue as a module request: a 'nuke user' feature. It wouldn't be too difficult to implement, and others might be interested in it.
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Jeff Eaton | Click Here To Find Out Why Drupal "Sucks"
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Eaton — Partner at Autogram
Ability to manage the database from within the CMS is essential
Again, it's not about trolls. I just want to be able to control from the CMS what's in my database without having to use SQL queries. That's not something for an optional module; it should be part of Drupal's core. I agree with Zach Harkey proposal.
What should it do?
I guess it begs the question "What should Drupal do?". I don't just mean what should be in the feature list of the next release. Really - what is Drupal? It's not a "framework", not a "web application builder", not a "portal", or merely a "blog tool", but a CMS - a Content Management System.
What is a CMS? What should a CMS do? I have been involved in the past in corporate cultures where IT maps business requirements to a tool, i.e., list what you want to do before you just set about artibitrarily enhancing it. Maybe now you have the question "What should Drupal do for me?".
When you visit the Drupal home page and go to the "About Drupal" page, you get the leading statement "Drupal is software that allows an individual or a community of users to easily publish, manage and organize a great variety of content on a website". And then the examples you get cover a variety of sites from CMS to blog, photo gallery to forums and newsletters. Wow you can do any or all of these in Drupal. It's understandable why so many forum questions have different 'why can't I' or 'how can I' angles.
Personally, it would seem that the handbooks should be much more focused on "this is how you setup Drupal for a photo gallery", "this is how you setup Drupal to replace a static web site", and "this is a step by step guide to developing Drupal themes". Maybe I am missing it, but the handbook home page I seems more focused on setup, configuration, and hardcore development.
What IS Drupal?
I agree wholeheartedly. This is actually a project I have on my personal to-do list once version 4.7 comes out. I'd like to set up a number of 'example' Drupal sites, using as little custom code as possible, to demonstrate how one can mold drupal into a blogging tool, an online store, a community site, a band promotion web page, and so on.
That said, I think the breadth of the 'CMS' label is problematic. Drupal, in its present form, is an effective 'bare bones CMS.' There are others better. As a development framework, as a starting point for custom work, it's surpassed all the other systems I've worked with and looked at. It's that 'as a starting point' aspect that's important, though. Figuring out how to explain that -- and how to shrink that gap for less experienced (or more time-sensitive) users is important for the future.
True, true, very true.
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Jeff Eaton | Click Here To Find Out Why Drupal "Sucks"
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Eaton — Partner at Autogram
you have some good points
Gosh jt6919, you have some good points but come on man (or woman), this is no way to start a conversation---in any culture. Besides people who would have answers to your questions are actively building something out of nothing and presenting to the world for free without direct compesation. They don't deserve to have their product thrown back in their face and told it "sucks."
Sometimes I really feel frustrated also. Probably 60% of questions I've asked have gone unanswered. But I try not to blame anyone and keep posting and trying to figure out drupal, which really, at core is a beautiful piece of work. I am grateful to this community and God help me, I hope I never lose my temper here.
Your title did get attention. It served its purpose but it was a bad choice nevertheless.
bad choice for you, great for me....
Read eaton's other post Why Drupal Sucks, he explains my (and most other new user's) issues in great detail.
Some people are instantly taken aback by "sucks" in combination with their livelihood. They take it much too personal. As eaton's post describes - it just means that 'right now, Drupal sucks for me'. If it doesn't 'suck for you', that's great - you learned how to adapt it to what you wanted. Hopefully through the answers people are giving I can make it "not suck" and help others do the same.
My post was a catalyst, and I'm getting more response to my answers here than I ever would have in 10 separate nicey nice posts. 60% percent of your questions may be unanswered, but 60% of my questions are getting answered - all in one post. I am an unabashed brutally honest tell-it-like-it-is person, and I'm not going to play PC here in a forum when I wouldn't do that face to face.
Yeah, I see your point about
Yeah, I see your point about getting answers. Good luck.
I try and avoid threads created for
largely rhetorical purposes, as -- generally -- they are an enormous waste of time. Besides, when you wrestle with a pig, you both get dirty, and the pig likes it.
And, by my criteria, the initial post in this thread falls into this category. A list of demands under a sophomoric title is still just a list of demands. No thought. No creativity. No originality. A little analysis, but nothing that hasn't been stated before.
So, congratulations on repeating what others have said before.
The difference between this initial post and Eaton's post is that Eaton is informed. He backs up his criticism with specific points. His ideas are more likely to lead to solutions because he knows what he is talking about.
RE:
I'm glad for you. I also enjoy it when people self-describe as "unabashedly honest" -- they tend to say this to anybody who will listen, because over time, nobody bothers to listen for long.
So, good luck. I would love to see you summarize what you have learned back to the community as a service to other folks who have similar questions.
Cheers,
bonobo
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http://www.funnymonkey.com
Tools for Teachers
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http://www.funnymonkey.com
I will most happily do so...
that's the entire and total point.....should I have had to repeat what others have said before? No. Should there have been sticky posts addresing some of these issues. Probably. When I recap what I have learned to help others - should I post it in the "Lessons Learned" forum? Yes......oh wait - such a forum doesn't yet exist!
hint, hint....this would seem to be a forum that needs to be created.
handbook
Add improvements to the documentation to the handbook. Forum posts roll, the handbook is for long term 'lessens learned' content.
-sp
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Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
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Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
Now I see the light.
Hello jt6919 My name is REEP- I am a fellow drupal newbie (termed troll) seeking light at the end of the tunnel.
It is uncanny how some of the same terms/phrases/analogies/ were used in the thread I started in the "USABILITY" forum.
I guess we both missed the
Warning: the drupal community is a caste system based on your skill level and does not take kindly to different personalities - sign at the front door.
The what is drupal? is STELLAR
My experience.
I played with a few CMS systems and concluded to give drupal a try. I went to Opencms tried out the demo - It was not the cleanness or so called flatness that impressed me. I was not really impressed with the functionality and overall it didn't even seem that easy to manipulate.
What did it for me was all the hype about drupal. I read this glowing report and came across that raving review. And I said it must be something to get that kind of praise from so and so. And then I came to the drupal site and see all this great stuff you can do and all the modules for customization and I see this great example of what you can do at www.thisgreatdrupalsite.com I had the warm feeling that my 6 month search for the perfect CMS was over.
Great - I install it get it up and going with a few pot holes along the way and wallah - I crack my knuckles and begin sculpting my masterpiece.
The potholes start turning into speed bumps the speed bumps start turning into curbs and the curbs into dirt mounds in the middle of the road and then the road just stops.
SO when the going gets tough - the tough get going - Right?
I have a college degree - surely I can solve the minimal problem of using this software- I am not going to let it get the best of me.
Tweak here, bend there and before you know it
Spaghetti.
OK uninstall and start over. No worried didn't really get into the hard stuff of look and feel yet - Think functional first right - let get it functioning and then work on the look.
After a few times of doing that. I started getting this feeling that I was lied to on those reviews.
After a few long days and sleepless nights of searching through the forum and seeing a long traffic jam - I join the forum.
Now I am mad right.
I felt like I fell for the ole bait and switch.
So I say maybe I’m missing something. I mean the problem has to be with me because “they said this was the greatest software since the invention of the OP for PC’s
So I start doing random searches about problems that I didn't even have just to see how this community has dealt with other people’s problems and I came to the same conclusion about the Open Source community the PeterLucas came to in this thread.
It is not drupal in particular - it is almost open source in general.
The attitude and response is the same.
I got mine you get yours. And if you don't like it go somewhere else cause I am not getting paid for it.
Or stop your whining you dumb newbie troll do it yourself or join the community and help.
And if you don’t join and contribute we will know you are JADNT – Just Another Dumb Newbie Troll – trying to get some attention and rain on our drupal parade.
And this is the only positive and productive way to get a problem solved.
But REAL LIFE says it is not the only positive and productive way to get something done. Real life says that this is they way people prefer in here. And it also says there are many things/ products that have been improved by user/customer feedback/complaining/griping/whining/what ever you want to call it.
So instead of answering your question you suggestions on ways to ask. This always the golden answer to getting your problem solved - Everybody has a suggestion on being nice and non-confrontational. But not on what your problem is.
Well I see months of the non-confrontational approaches that have never been resolved.
So what you say - join and help.
I thinking to myself...
Ok I couldn't even get the software from point “A” installation - to point “J” of customization and much less point “Z” of rolling it out to the public.
So how am I supposed to contribute?
Contribute what. I don't even spell that well I use the spell check in Microsoft Word.
I barely got this car out of park and into reverse - reverse mind you - not even into drive but I am suppose to come in and tell you what compression ratio the pistons should be at.
Ok great. I missed that part in the directions. I also missed the part in the directions that say
Warning before you install drupal.
Read the “Why does drupal suck? thread. By jt6919
And
The “Why drupal sucks.” thread By Eaton
Oh yeah and the part in the raving review that the website developer who was featured says.
Before I got www.thisgreatdrupalsite.com I had to do.
400 hack into the core code.
300 module tweaks
200 almost impossible hat tricks
100 forum/google searches
50 installs
25 upgrades
And read 10 PHP coding books.
And hire 1 consultant that will gladly take my money all the while thinking I’m stupid for not being able to figure out it myself.
Ok Great.
Happy Drupalling.
:)
Please...
Thank you.
also drupal is slow as
also drupal is slow as turtle...
Not for me
I take it you are refering to the thread drupal - so slow? After your initial post I haven't seen you contributing to that thread, whereas some people asked questions or pointed you to potential causes. Problems are not solved automagically, nor by complaining. I'd advice you to go back to that thread and interact with the people to (try to) solve your problem.
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Tips for posting to the forums.
When your problem is solved, please post a follow-up to the thread you started.
sorry it's not mine problem,
sorry it's not mine problem, its in drupal
Devel
Can you elaborate? How did you reach this conclusion? Install the devel module to get an objectief measure of 'slow'. How long does it take for Drupal to generate a page?
Link to devel: http://drupal.org/project/devel (4.6). For 4.7, download devel from CVS.
Perhaps it's best to continue this discussion in your original thread.
--
Tips for posting to the forums.
When your problem is solved, please post a follow-up to the thread you started.
...
Atention Seeker!