What was wrong with all the others?
listed here
and discussed here?!

Why?

Comments

gregarios’s picture

Whats wrong with all the others?

IE Destroyer: No release version. No 6.x version.
IE6 Warning: No 6.x version.
Seven Up: Too obtrusive.
SUY: No 6.x release. Too obtrusive.
IE Notify: Announcement that maintainer is giving it up.

What is right with this one:

IE 6 Update: Brand new version 6.x release. Unobtrusive. Clever.

dman’s picture

So you oppose the collaboration effort described in that thread, already with chime-in support from the 'maintainers' of (IE Notify, iedestroyer, browser_support, IE6 warning)

3. The problem needs a general solution - please remember that this is Drupal here
- we build API-s = separate the task to sub-levels and on each level the job is done as it should be....
- we collaborate on these API-s

So I would love it if all the 4 modules think of a way to solve that problem the best way and with the least effort.

(I propose one module with different types of settings and operation - after a commonly shared browser detection code the module decides what to do based on the settings ... (show a block/ JS popup / a whole page banner that can/cannot be ignored ..) )

Because:
- this version is newer.

:-(

Pity.

gregarios’s picture

All that matters to me is I need a solution now and all those others are not cuttin' the mustard... yet.
I'm all for a better solution when it comes along. Welcome to capitalism.

litwol’s picture

This module is genius. 5 stars.

esllou’s picture

oh great, another "I'm going to change how my users behave and think" module. Yip yip!

gregarios’s picture

@esllou:
All websites try to do that in one form or another. I think you just described advertising in its simplest terms. ;-)

Bricks and Clicks Marketing’s picture

I like the sneakiness of this module. Getting peeps to think they're supposed to update is a brilliant solution, much better than a big message telling them their browser sucks (and insulting them in the process). I'd rather have something clever to use now than wait for 5 different people to agree on something.

Anonymous’s picture

I'm always surprised by people who get mad at new modules because they are "duplicates", or because similar effort have already happen somewhere else, or because developpers don't "follow the unwritten rules". It is very impressive how crazy some can get over this type of subject in the drupal community.

some previous examples of the same type :

"Why I am quitting Drupal" : http://drupal.org/node/357941
"On not doing Drupal anymore" : http://acko.net/blog/on-not-doing-drupal-anymore

I understand that duplicates can be a problem for newbies : I am new to drupal, and I am looking for a module that does THIS... why do I find 4 that seams to do the same thing ? Which one should I choose ? How is this going to impact my site in the futur ?
Newcomers don't know if a maintainer is to be trusted or not, and also very often, don't behave like they should, and consider the maintainer like someone who HAVE to provide fixes, perfection, help, support, assistance, features...etc... This leads to lots of frustration on both sides, as maintainers don't always have the best manners (why would they, they already work hard for free!), and same for users (why would they, isn't drupal supposed to be the best CMS, with cristal-clean code and the best community?).

On the other hand, I think that competition is the best way to get the best modules out. An example to this would the image modules.

Image is probable the oldest image module in drupal, and even though it must have once been a great way to get images out on the web, it slowly became obsolete and not so awesome/intuitive. As of today, it still doesn't have even a beta version for D6, even with maintainers like walkah, sun, drewish and joachim.
Thank god, others worked hard on alternative to this, and even if some might say that drupal has way too many image modules, I think that images can be handled in so many different ways, that a wide variety of image module is one of the great plus of Drupal.

I myself got involved into solving his problem, tried to gather people around a project to make a new module for images on drupal.

I quickly realised that :

- I'm not the best at gathering people :)
- Each Drupal Developper has a different point of view, whether you talk about images/nodes/taxonomy/flash/art/music/colors/smell etc...
- Instead of working together, everyone is going to develop their castle in their own sandbox, and THEN, maybe, think about merging things, or steal ideas from others to implement to their own castle.

The result of my work to get one great module, was few kinda great modules, with a different focus for each of them, either UI, pure code, the "best drupal way" etc...

for info, the best two result that I know of are :

- http://drupal.org/project/node_gallery
- http://drupal.org/project/prog_gallery

I tried to get people to work together.. didn't work.

After this experience, I believe that a module needs to survive if it finds its audience. Duplicates actually rarely exists, as there is always a tiny difference between two modules that can mean A LOT! (who never had to give up on a module because of the smallest detail?)

If anyone is to blame for any confusion, it's Drupal.org for not having a better way to browse, rate, comment, and discuss modules, but hopefully, this will be fixed in the forthcoming redesign from MB.

Don't get mad at "duplicates", natural selection will get rid of the bad modules, and an effort is never a loss when it's contributed to the community.

Sorry for the long message, I felt like sharing my point of view for once :)

litwol’s picture

Don't get mad at "duplicates", natural selection will get rid of the bad modules, and an effort is never a loss when it's contributed to the community.

mmm beautiful.

dman’s picture

Here's why
If you disagree with every one of the suggestions there, so be it.

I'm not forcing anyone to behave correctly, or even "mad". Mostly just asking for clarification of the differences so that this alleged 'choice' for users actually means something useful.

If a rogue developer (the rules are very clearly written) feels the need to make a druplicate - knowing that other options are out there, the least they can do is try to say why their version is useful. Without points of difference, the 'choice' and 'competition' isn't really a good argument.

Look, the very reason that some of the pre-existing solutions for this task didn't get upgraded is because no individual one got enough critical support to have a good-sized user-base, and more than one maintainer. The market fragmented, and instead of any working solution there were four (now five) partial solutions. It's strange that anyone could believe that competing fragmented, unsupported, partial solutions are better for the end user. "Natural selection" like this means that everyone dies, and 6 months later another variation comes along to fill the gap, leaving older users high and dry, and new users confused still.

gregarios’s picture

I listed the reason why I chose this module over the others. If they don't like it, they can change. This module is unique in its function, in my opinion, since the others don't have the non-obnoxiousness required by a professional website developer.

I'm all for rogue developers breaking new ground and "Thinking Different" so things will "Just Work." Yes, I'm a Mac, too... and you are so obviously a PC... so what. Live and let live.

Are you saying there should not be any other burger joints on earth than McD's too? Non-competition isn't a good argument.

Anonymous’s picture

@dman : Read carefully, I am not saying that merging effort is a bad idea. To the contrary, I would encourage it. But on the other end, I don't think that "duplicate" module are so bad, because they might find an audience that the "original" (understand "first") module wouldn't please. And if they don't, they'll die. And it's Drupal.org's responsibility to provide us with tools to point out depreciated or "unsafe" modules.

litwol’s picture

I just want to say: I realize how controversial this topic for conversaton is and I thank you all for remaining respectful for one another.

dman’s picture

:-)
It's true that not all almost-duplicates are evil. There are several valid reasons to provide alternatives.
But still, the softer options from The Manifesto can apply:

I ask from anyone who has a module that appears to be overlapped by another, to please consider any of the following options:
* Documenting on the project page what distinguishes it from others that it may be confused with. Both being 'simpler' and 'having more options' are regarded as benefits to different people!
* Cross-linking from the your project page directly to competing or comparative modules to assist downloaders to make an informed choice.

In this modules area, it looked like it was possible for everyones wishes to succeed - a consensus solution that could choose which browsers to target, what message to show, and how obtrusively to show it - from the several methods tried so far. That looked like progress. That's why starting again from scratch seems a waste.

FTR, this year I'm a Mac/Linux user, and have found that Macs have much less diversity in competing software options than PC. And that's not a bad thing. Making things "just work" is the opposite of providing a bewildering number of unnecessary choices. The Mac application suites concentrate on getting their app working right for everybody, not by splintering to individuals different preferences. Which side of the [encouraging unlimited diversity/getting it right through co-operation] ideology do you find yourself on?

gregarios’s picture

I totally agree with your manifesto quotes.

However, this module had a rather different start to take into consideration as well — the coding for the basis of this module was done by www.ie6update.com, independently of Drupal and this developer, which gave this module the advantage of a "head-start" of sorts. Who knows how many versions or bugs were worked out in the code by the original designers. This could very well be the equivalent of version 6.x-2.7 or something, as far as advancement in core design. So, I wouldn't necessarily call this module "starting from scratch."

As for the Mac/PC debate... I think Drupal is a Mac, but without a Steve Jobs. Macs do have a large diversity of every kind of software, just not a hugely inordinate diversity of software like the PC realm. Don't get me wrong... I'm usually a black or white, all or nothing, you're with me or against me kind of guy. But, in the case of software, I think a minimal amount of diversity is needed. If you look at your example of Mac software, I can name at least 2 to 3 different manufacturers of every genre of Mac software you can name. Nobody has a monopoly on a type of Mac software — there is a little diversity of every kind.

I believe I fall in the middle as far as Drupal modules go. There should be room for at least 2 to 3 "druplicates" of every module, but not more than that if possible. Limiting it to absolutely no druplicates is unreasonable. Limiting to just one module seems to suggest that the 1 person who writes a module must read the minds and fulfill the needs of every person on earth, or they must collaborate. In the case of this module, I can see how they could ALL be combined, but in the interests of simplicity, non-bloatware, precision need-filling, and diversity, I like the idea of about 2 or 3 that are slightly different. If I find a module that has one feature I like and 15 I won't use, it is less desirable than a module that does the one thing I need really well.

If you agree that the other module writers are getting together to combine their modules (someday) then that would leave theirs, and this one — two druplicates. :-)

espirates’s picture

On the other hand, I think that competition is the best way to get the best modules out.

That's a load of crap, competition inspires greed and almost always brings about problems.
Competition for the sake of competition is just plain stupid. Simple logic says if there's already an existing module why re-invent the wheel, instead they should collaborate with the module maintainer and focus on improving it. Drupal should setup a user voting on modules, which ones to toss, which ones to keep, which ones to merge, etc. Let the users decide.

gregarios’s picture

Drupal should setup a user voting on modules, which ones to toss, which ones to keep, which ones to merge, etc. Let the users decide.

That's the worst idea I've ever seen on Drupal's comment boards. I don't ever want the "majority" dictating what modules I can and can't use.

...competition inspires greed and almost always brings about problems.

Greed? Who's getting paid for these modules? lol Competition inspires innovation. Without it we'd still be using torches to light our homes.

Anonymous’s picture

That's a load of crap

... is just plain stupid

@espirates ... is this the best you can do to expose your point of view ?
Sad.

Michsk’s picture

i almost created exactly this for my own drupal project. I am very happy with thise module ! The other modules are like said in the first comment

IE Destroyer: No release version. No 6.x version.
IE6 Warning: No 6.x version.
Seven Up: Too obtrusive.
SUY: No 6.x release. Too obtrusive.
IE Notify: Announcement that maintainer is giving it up.

espirates’s picture

That's the worst idea I've ever seen on Drupal's comment boards. I don't ever want the "majority" dictating what modules I can and can't use.

Don't look at it as a majority rule but more as a community need, nobody is talking about telling you what you can or can not use. If there are 20+ modules all spinning the same wheel and wasting space, a majority of users would prefer some order and better management, this is a good thing, a truly community driven base is were ALL users get a say, that is unless you prefer the current dictatorship where unless your in the deek club, you don't get a say.

Greed? Who's getting paid for these modules? lol Competition inspires innovation. Without it we'd still be using torches to light our homes.

Please, everybody knows Open Source developers get paid in one form or another. You can call it innovation and sometimes it is, but more often than not, useless modules are created to scratch an itch or shameless plug for the developer, and ends up creating an unorganized mess for users. I do not call duplicating modules innovation not by a long shot. A democracy is far better than blah competition.

I apologize in my choice of wording, yes I can do better, however, I only felt the need to match the level of logic or lack of being dished and well that's the word that came to mind :)

I think these discussions are great, it lets the programmers know there are a lot of non-programmer Drupal fans who do have something to say about Drupal and that if Drupal is to gain the levels of popularity like Wordpress, it must be a diverse community driven cms vs only for high tech geeks.

dougo99’s picture

This module is perfect for my needs. Each one handles it in its own way and I prefer this modules approach. Why the fuss over alternative approaches? I'm a newbie but we aren't flailing idiots. I reviewed each module and approach, learned something along the way and chose the best option for me. Honestly - if there weren't alternatives I'd probably get frustrated and spend my time trying to learn another system where I knew flexibility and innovation thrived. Luckily that actually happens here.

Anonymous’s picture

Status: Active » Closed (fixed)

Thanks dougo99,
I don't think we need to keep this issue open, the issue has been discussed and you just proved the need for this module to exist.

drubox’s picture

This module is great. At first I was confused by all the alternatives, but it's really the only one with an unobtrusive approach to the problem, and on top of that it is actually maintained!
I will never be able to understand people that complain that someone else made a contribution, much less when they can't even seem to understand that this module has different approach and is not reinventing the wheel at all. You can see that by the name alone. This module is about updating. The other modules are more about warning and promoting browsers.

dman’s picture

"actually maintained"?
Last commit was 20 weeks ago. At this point I don't think there's a difference between 20 weeks, 34 weeks, or 40 weeks old like the others are.

If newer is better, then ie6nomore is only hours old. Enjoy!

It looks like this job (in general) is becoming just a fun little hobby project. A programming exercise for coders who want to take a break from wrestling with HTML and decide to make a Drupal module to express their frustration. The "Hello world" of Drupal modules.

drubox’s picture

There is no official release of ie6nomore. (not one!) There is even an drupal7 version of ie6update. And why should there be frequent releases, when the module basically just works?
You clearly don't understand that there are people, which are very grateful for this module, and don't have any use for the other modules. Please don't judge things that you can't judge, because you clearly have different needs then the ie6update users. And I don't think it's a fun little hobby project, this is a very unprofessional and insulting statement of yours, if it was a "fun little hobby project" I'm sure the developer would add more features instead of keeping it simple stupid.

MatthijsG’s picture

Seven Up: Too obtrusive.

Excuse me? You're talking to IE6 users .. the same people that are driving 80 km/h (~50 mph) on a highway on the most left lane (FYI: i'm living in NL and the speed limit is 120 km/h (~ 75 mph). The same people who block the whole aisle in a shop etc etc. Someone who' s using IE6 at this day is or a poor developer or someone who don't want to understand new techniques.

If you're using nowadays IE6 you need some obtrusive messages.

real_ate’s picture

Some people don't have a choice. In some enterprise environments users need to be able to access what are now legacy web applications that only work with IE6. For this reason they are not allowed to update their IE version (or their IT people won't do it). In these environments the users may also be restricted from using anything but IE, which is quite common in enterprise environments.

The situation is so bad that I was working on a Grass Roots web application last year (2010) that was *completely* new but had to target IE6 so that the enterprise customer could actually use it.

The situation is crap. Unobtrusive is better for *all* situations but if you want to be obtrusive and force people to update or effectively turn them away for not updating you have to be prepared for that loss of a percentage of your potential viewers. I wish that percentage was closer to 0 but this is just the way it is.

designcrs’s picture

Here's an overview of similar modules that display messages in IE6/IE7:
http://groups.drupal.org/node/19573