I opened a thread in the Module development forum, in the hope to get some feedback from Drupal core developers, but also from other contrib developers. But I'm posting it here, as I think I did in the wrong place. Sorry, for cross posting.
What I'm requesting is the right to get listed in the contrib modules area, even if you host your own modules (or themes).
Please, compare with the phpBB or WordPress models.
phpBB has its own official database for MODs and Themes. Developers may host their contribs at other places (there are lots) or even at their own sites. People in certain phpBB Teams validate what authors submit to be published at the official repository, but development and or support may take place wherever. phpBB offers some forums for authors and contrib support, but that is not required.
With WordPress there are also some official resources developers may take advantage, but that's not required. No matter where resources for a plugin/theme are. WordPress offers several catalogs where authors may post their contributions.
Now, let's see Drupal. You have just 2 options
a) Get a Drupal CVS account and use official resources for everything.
b) Do it your way, but it's hard because no one can see what you do.Well, I hope you can see what I'm trying to say...
What I would like to see here at Drupal.org is something developers could use to post information about their contribs, but not just forums, maybe a catalog like (or extend) the official one, for stuff that's not being developed using official resources.
I'm wondering what other contrib developers think. When you create something for Drupal, what do you expect in return? Nothing? Is it just part of your bussiness, so it doesn't matter where the project is hosted?
In my case, I do almost everything as part of my hobby, but I like to have my own site, so I expect my contributions to generate some activity there. I believe, that is not too much in return.
Is there any reason why there's no information here about projects hosted somewhere else? If not, what would be the best way to add this "feature" to this site? Maybe an extension to the project module to accept entries that are not developed in the Drupal CVS? Maybe a handbook page? Would it all need some kind a quality assurance?
I think something like this could still benefit the community (probably there is contrib stuff out there that could be some attention, if it was listed somewhere in this site). It is GPL, after all. If a contrib developed out there gets abandoned, it could still be continued by someone else.
Comments
If you have an opinion on this, please post.
If you have an opinion on this, please post.
Is it so absurd to expect to see (in this site) a list of contrib stuff that is developed using non Drupal resources?
Am I asking in the wrong place?
Is this idea against any policy that I'm not aware of? :-/
In your opinion, is there anything bad with the WordPress approach?
Doubt is the beginning, not the end of wisdom.
hmm... let me try with a
hmm... let me try with a more concrete proposal.
Would it be possible to setup the project module installed here at Drupal.org to list projects that are not related to any Drupal CVS repository and that do not have the issue tracker enabled?
Would that be a problem for the Drupal developer or user community?
Doubt is the beginning, not the end of wisdom.
Looking at the handbook...
Looking at the handbook page Maintaining a project on drupal.org:
I know my proposal is against that rule. But my question is why not? Is it because it will become chaotic or hard to maintain?
Please, see how WordPress helps 3rd party developers by letting them list their plugins or themes at there site. Is it possible to do something similar here at Drupal?
If not, then would it be possible to update the above mention handbook page to explain why?
I'm very sorry if this has been discussed before. It is just that I don't get why not?
Doubt is the beginning, not the end of wisdom.
Very similar to my feature request
I am marking this to see if there is any answer forthcoming because this is very similar to my feature request.
BTW, What you are talking about is called a codex. Wordpress, Xoops, e107 and some others have such an area on their main sites.
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BTW, What you are talking
Well, yes and no. codex is what those projects use. However, Drupal has now a pretty nice Downloads area organized into categories where it's pretty easy to find stuff. This is what makes it so good to also include stuff supported somewhere else.
I guess all that would be needed is a slight change in the project module to offer the ability to include contrib modules/themes that do not use the Drupal CVS or even that do not have the issue tracker enabled here (authors may prefer to offer support at their own websites).
I like to spend my time doing stuff for open software that I like to use, and often also like to share what I do in my spare time. I'm not married with Drupal, WordPress nor phpBB. I think you're on a similar position, so if such a request is accepted it might benefit us, probably some other developers and, I'm sure, the Drupal community, as there could be more information for them about stuff they could use for their sites.
The Drupal repositories are plenty of discontinued stuff. Not all modules/themes have been migrated to the latest version. ...or it might happen that some contrib gets obsolete by new features introduced in core itself. I mean, problems that may occur with contrib material listed here but supported somewhere may also happen with stuff in the official repository. One benefit if off-site stuff was listed here is that, if abandoned, it would also be at the hands of other possible contributors. Because, it is all about GPL.
Doubt is the beginning, not the end of wisdom.
modules on drupal
I'm starting to think about module development myself, and I gues I'd turn around the question and just ask what the downside is for you? Using the CVS system should make it easier to maintain and easier to have others collaborate on a project.
As far as traffic/credit some module pages include a "sponsored by" link, or other link back to give credit to the developers, such as:
http://drupal.org/node/31463
http://drupal.org/project/adsense
The requirement to put it in the drupal repository may be a way to push developers to license their modules under GPL, but I'd guess fundamentally it's just much simpler this way for the drupal.org maintainers. Also, there are developers that can no longer maintain a project, and by having the code already in the repository here, someone else can more easily pcik it up and continue with it.
I've seen a number of developers providing links to modules in the forum (especially for projects that are not yet finished) such as:
http://drupal.org/node/50243#comment-124723
http://drupal.org/node/30342
So, it seems as though this is a technique some developers use to get inital attention and feedback.
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I'm starting to think about
In my opinion that's not an exclusive benefit of using official resources. Each contrib project here is maintained by a single set of authors. It wouldn't be nice if someone else was commiting to someone else's project. In fact, a project owner can now control who can contribute to their project.
Probably any open source developer would be open to collaborations, even if such a developer is not using official resources. On the other hand, a developer could also reject collaborations, even if using official resources.
Well, talking about GPL issues is a bit beyond this discussion, but I believe developing contrib stuff using non official resources doesn't mean it cannot be GPL. I mean any piece of code that needs Drupal to work it is automatically GPL. The GPL status doesn't depend on the resources being used.
Yes, I think this might be the major concern. However, that mostly goes with the contrib repository, I think. Another thing is what stuff is listed in the Downloads area. In fact, allowing stuff that uses non-official resources would not have to give them more work. It would be a simple node of type project.
It would be worst if one develops something for Drupal that is not listed here. If abandoned, there would be no way to know there was something someone else could take over.
Doubt is the beginning, not the end of wisdom.
Some thoughts
There are basically two kinds of projects I create. Personal one-off stuff for sites I'm developing in my spare time, or sponsored projects that are funded by a client. In both cases, I have no problems popping them into CVS. I find that my blog gets plenty of traffic from my drupal.org sigline, and people googling for the projects I've created. I brainstorm about them often enough on my blog that they show up fairly high on any given search.
I think there probably should be more open-ness to an external repository of drupal modules and themes. I'm not interested in maintaining it, though, and I imagine that most of the folks who keep the themes/modules directory on drupal.org going would want to focus their efforts here as well.
Can't say I have the answer to your questions, but that's where I'm at on the subject. :-)
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Thanks for your feedback.
Thanks for your feedback. Being a well known Drupal contributor, it is much appreciated. :)
Wouldn't it be easier if you could also have a project node here, for stuff you have developed using your own resources?
I think the community would highly benefit from that. Users because they wouldn't need to jump from site to site find stuff they could use for their sites. Developers because they could base their job in something you have done off-drupal or perhaps offer their collaboration to take your ideas further, which is something that will probably benefit end users too.
Let's find a reasonable way to do it! :-)
I think it doesn't have to be a huge problem. All that is needed is add the ability in the project module to list nodes that do not use the Drupal CVS or even that do not have the issue tracker enabled.
It is just a description and links to wherever the package, documentation, support, etc. can be found. All pretty well organized into a single place. Is there anything better than that for end users?
Again, thanks for voicing your thoughts. :-)
Doubt is the beginning, not the end of wisdom.
In reply to Boris (coming from Akismet module announcement)
In reply to Boris (coming from Akismet module announcement)...
http://drupal.org/node/68535#comment-128872
If I had a low level of commitement I wouldn't be here, and I wouldn't have been the second most annoying bug reporter during latest months of 4.7 development.
http://drupal.org/node/40383#comment-81522
http://drupal.org/newsletter/2006/april (see dev zone section)
I spent a lot of time following all the process and found several bugs from simple code reviews or when thinking about and working with akismet module (since jan/feb '06) and others (that I have not talked about yet because they aren't finished). Also, I have reported a a few bugs in a number of contrib modules.
The spam module is not here for license reasons. I don't think that means there is a low level of commitment in it. It is just located somewhere else, for whatever reason.
I think Drupal is a bit different in this regards from almost everything else I've seen before. Of course, there are similarities with other projects, but that doesn't mean it's a defacto standard. I used before (in this thread) phpBB or WordPress for comparissions, but there's also a lot more, for example, things that come to mind, Firefox extensions, many *nix packages or even Google homepage modules. Also, how many download kind of sites there are about freeware... what do devs expect when they code for a framework?
Also, as I mentioned in the Akismet thread, another motivation of mine is resource and spare time optimization.
And... I opened this discussion because I feel there might be something good on my proposal, but it seems it is almost just me. Maybe because people here are used to have it all at Drupal.org? Anyway, I do accept it might be a lost battle, but I had to try it. I hope that anyone can respect that and please, don't introduce the concept of "level of commitement" because that's another story, I think.
Sorry, I have to disagree here. I haven't seen any formal security audit in contrib modules (I'm just here since setember '05 though). Anyway, it is all about open source which means my code is also available for anyone to review.
Doubt is the beginning, not the end of wisdom.
From the 'other' thread one
From the 'other' thread one of your stated reasons to wanting to do this was because you develop for other projects and it would be convienient for you to keep all your stuff on one site you control. This is true for you.
However several hundred contrib modules are availble for download from drupal.org. If we started linking to every 'offiste' contrib module, then the workload of the site maintainers would spiral up dramatically as we would have to constantly monitor, maintain and remove broken links. I have seen sites of such resources go dark for other communities and frankly would not want the additional workload for this communtiy.
Also, 4.7 has a built in way for Drupal site admins to enable a 'call-home' feature about what modules are installed, etc. This will allow actual in use statistics to be complied that can be dislayed with a project as a measure of it's poularity in actual use.
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
Ok, I felt such a possibility would benefit the community
Ok, I felt such a possibility would benefit the community. Though, I can see all the work that's been put into all the resources available, so I respect that.
I just prefer using my own resources, for several reasons. Now, regarding the comment made by Boris about "level of commitment" (and I've seen similar comments in other posts), I hope that doesn't need to mean that my code is better or worst. Anyway, I made my choice. Users will do their own. I cannot do anything about that. Time will tell if I'm able to add some value or not. I'm still happy because a) it's a way to keep me learning and b) better if that helps someone out there.
Doubt is the beginning, not the end of wisdom.
Markus -- I didn't mean to
Markus -- I didn't mean to say that *you* didn't have a high level of commitment. As I said elsewhere, you've contributed lots of great code. You've made the personal decision to host elsewhere, and Jeremy Andrews chooses to host spam module offsite for license reasons. All good reasons.
Just that actually hosting and following the issue tracker here tends to indicate a higher level of commitment to maintaining this centralized community...most of the points that Steven makes above make more sense.
I certainly believe that you DO add value....so I'll come find you wherever you are. Maybe I'll make an Akismet project here and copy/paste issues to your site :P
I agree with you and Steven,
I agree with you and Steven, though I know I won't be able to offer good support if the module is located here, because real life days are just 24h long. I wonder if there's a settings panel somewhere to change that... and I have a couple of little twins, day job, other projects...
On the other hand, I'm 100% sure I will monitor my site, so that I hope will offer the best user experience in terms of support et all.
If I ever cannot maintain my modules, be sure that I'll donate those that may worth to Drupal. It happened to me before and everyone seems to be happy with that. ;-)
Doubt is the beginning, not the end of wisdom.
You can subscribe to your
You can subscribe to your projects issue tracker and be emailed notifications of when someone has filed an issue. THis is one way to 'monitor' your project on Drupal.org. Each module issue tracker also has an RSS feed you could subscribe to. The tools on Drupal.org are designed to help you manage your cotnributions and also to allow others you authorize to help you manage your pojects as well. You also benefit from community patches and the occasional contributed audit that some of the folks do at random some times i fthey like your module.
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
Yes, I could, however...
Yes, I could, however...
I prefer to have all my projects on a single place where I have 100% control, so I don't depend on bugs of the projects module (it happened) or I can even add more features, such as something I implemented in the akismet module (ability to call home to check for updates). Also, I now know how many times each project has been downloaded, or I have 100% control of CVS (I may even switch to SVN), etc. It all saves time if you sum bits from here and there.
I would love to have more time to help you guys improve the project module, and IIRC I reported one or two issues, but it all requires time and I know I won't be able to follow what happens here the same way I can monitor stable core releases (to make sure modules work) and my site for incoming support requests or whatever.
I thought there could be someone else in similar circusmtancies, and looking at (f.e.) how WordPress works in terms of promoting 3rd party developers (codex is maintained by the community itself, wp-plugins.net is maintained by 3rd party devs, all it requires is moderation), I thought it worthed a try to open such a discussion here... I realize your points, I hope you can see mine.
Doubt is the beginning, not the end of wisdom.
:D
I see your points. We have a strong drive for centralization here. We have the ability to generate download statistics and such is being incorporated into a more accessable interface.
Drupal already has an existing call home feature built into 4.7. All you have to is turn on your Drupal module and enable the call home stats. This will be incorporated into a 'most popular' type of number displayed in project at some point in the near future. All it lacks is people with the time.
So while yes, I do see yours, most of what you are wanting is already being added to Drupal.org and Drupal itself so I hope you see ours and really hope you can find the time to join into Dericks work so all the contributors gain this.
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
I do not discard that option
I do not discard that option in the future, however now, it saves me a lot of time :-)
BTW, the ability to call home I implemented is nothing more than a GET request to the project page appending '/version'. It returns the latest stable version of the module. This request is (optionally) invoked via cron and logged to watchdog. Version information is displayed in the settings panel of the module.
Here's an example to check for the Akismet module version:
http://www.phpmix.org/projects/drupal/4_7/akismet/version
In my site I don't do anything with the information collected by these requests. Well, yes they are logged by Apache and statistics module, but that's all. It's just a handy method to automatically inform admins when new versions are released. It was inspired by a similar feature implemented in the phpBB administration panel a few months ago.
Doubt is the beginning, not the end of wisdom.
Not having used or
Not having used or downloaded the module is this an 'opt in' check box that the site admin voluntarily does and is it mentioned in the readme/module help that you do this?
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
Yes, this feature is optional and documented
Yes, this feature is optional and documented in the file README.txt and in the project page itself (at the end of the list of features):
There is also a paragraph in the release announcement published here, at my site and to the automattic spam-stopper mailing list:
The code is available from SourceForge CVS, so it can be audited by anyone. :-)
Doubt is the beginning, not the end of wisdom.