Hi,

according to http://drupal.org/node/725514 and http://drupal.org/node/501826, a new payment mechanism could be useful for Ubercart MarketPlace. The idea is to offer several choices on the way buyers interact with sellers in terms of payments. I believe that in order to be sure that everybody thinks the same, and to see if eventually it would be interesting to start writing such a module, it is essential to list as much as possible the features we would like to see. We will then try to sort them if necessary.

Please participate in this thread, I will keep the list updated. Try as much as possible to first express the WHAT and then express the WHY.

Comments

Korchkidu’s picture

Potential Funders

- Korchkidu;
- JBiggis;
- Clavigne's customer;

Features for mp_wallet

Please see google doc here:
http://docs.google.com/View?id=dhcgfhpn_1whknj8gn

I will keep it up to date.

Best regards.
K.

fehin’s picture

Please see my comment here: http://drupal.org/node/501826#comment-2837402.
I think it will be a good feature.

Korchkidu’s picture

Hi,

thanks for your comment. I think however that it would be redundant with what this module will do. Indeed, if we implement a system handling bank account, we will integrate also the dispatching mechanism where for one checkout, several sellers get paid on their bank account (the one on the site).
Let me know if I am wrong.

Best regards.
K.

Stomper’s picture

I would love to see escrow support. More specifically, the website itself could offer/handle the escrow option(not outsourced), and whether or not the option was offered was up to the seller.

When a buyer pays for an item via escrow, the seller will be alerted that payment has been made to the escrow system, upon arrival of item, the buyer can release funds from the escrow system. It would be cool if the seller could enter in the shipping tracking number into the escrow system, and then have the buyer be alerted of shipment as a result.

Korchkidu’s picture

Hi,

I have added your feature request in the document here:
http://docs.google.com/View?id=dhcgfhpn_1whknj8gn

Let me know if you have other requests, I will add them in the list.

K.

syndicateStorm’s picture

FYI, There has been some development of the Paypal adaptive payments interface here: http://drupal.org/node/501826 (posts #19 and #21). I don't think it's complete or interfaced with Marketplace, so now would be a good time discuss how it might best interface with mp_payments, Marketplace, etc.

Korchkidu’s picture

Hi SyndicateStorm,

yes, I saw this module. The problem is that it integrates paypal directly and there is no room for other payment methods. My idea behind the module I need, is that all the mechanism is integrated into the module. User uses their prefered method to deposit and withdraw money to and from the site. That way, you have full control over when paying sellers, with what commission. You can implement an escrow service that way and also nicely handle charge back more easily...
See http://docs.google.com/View?id=dhcgfhpn_1whknj8gn for details.

K.

syndicateStorm’s picture

Yes, I think I see what you are after. mp_payments will act as a module that handles the flow of all money/points something like a community bank with several individual bank accounts. This sounds like a very robust and generic approach to the problem, I like it.

How do you see the present Masspay system and feature requests like Paypal adaptive payments fitting into Marketplace in the future? For example, do we break them off into their own modules, etc? Thoughts? Sounds like we will also need to figure out how this does or does not interface with Ubercart? I think the userpoints_ubercart module has a mechanism for buying products using points instead of a credit card with Ubercart but I've never tried it... In theory that would allow UC Marketplace's structure to remain somewhat the same (other than needing to modularize the Masspay portion).

Korchkidu’s picture

Hi,

Yes exactly. The module will handle all cash transfers INSIDE the web site. For the integration with the OUTSIDE, well, I must admit that i am not experienced enough with Drupal development so I believe I am not the best person to take architecture decisions. However, if possible, it would be nice to put all the logic in a module and then, define which hooks the other payment modules (Masspay, etc) must implement to integrate well. The idea is that if someone decides to support another payment system, the work to do is minimal... Basically, Masspay should be minimally adapted so that we can insert the new payment module "between it and the site". I am not sure to be crystal clear...^^ I will try to find time to update the document to reflect that.

Thanks again for your help, thoughts, etc.
Best regards.
K.

Bastlynn’s picture

Using the user points system as your internal funding could work as a replacement funding if you allowed people to specifically 'cash out' their points for real money at any particular time. Unfortunately, I see some trouble in getting the end user to go along with the idea of buying points and then using points instead of just buying directly. I'm curious to see where this goes, :)

Korchkidu’s picture

I am not sure to understand. It will be specifically designed to allow users to cash-out their points (or money) at any time (following certain rules). Please, have a look at the nice diagrams in the document...;-). The idea behind this is to facilitate money transfers on site where buying and selling is frequent. So I believe it is more aimed at site selling and buying digital goods. But indeed, if your users will only buying one time or two, then using dedicated payment systems is a better idea.

Best regards.
K.

Bastlynn’s picture

Oh mechanically speaking the plan is sound and very well designed. It's the aspect of retraining the end user to buy points, spend them internally to the site, then cash them back out for real money that I was expressing concern for. It's purely social convention that may cause difficulty across other sites - so worth at least keeping aware of in the design in order to ease the transition (or it may be worthwhile to look for a way to make that transition transparent).

2noame’s picture

An interesting idea...

syndicateStorm’s picture

iStockPhoto uses a point system and brings in over $50M/year. So a point system can work. However, as Bastlynn points out, a point system would often not be the first choice.

It sounds like the various payment schemes all have there pros and cons. I see no reason why we couldn't support three payment modules: mp_payments, mp_masspay, and mp_adaptive_payments.

Korchkidu’s picture

Definitely yes! Having several payment systems is mandatory. Because users do not all use Paypal or Amazon, because users sometimes prefer to pay in one shot (low friction) for all the stuff they will buy/use on your site...

Best regards.
K.

syndicateStorm’s picture

Although mp_payments is fairly generic in functionality, I'm not sure it's generic enough to name it mp_payments? MassPay and Adaptive Payments are both "payments" schemes and yet they shouldn't be a part of the mp_"payments" module? Any thoughts on naming conventions for our various payment systems? It's a minor issue, but perhaps we should resolve it before someone starts coding.

Korchkidu’s picture

Hi,

yes, of course. mp_payments is a "working title". Also, I am not that creative so any name ideas are welcome...;-)

Best regards.
K.

syndicateStorm’s picture

Something like mp_point_payments... but hopefully someone can come up with something better, that really embodies the module you are trying to outline.

Korchkidu’s picture

Hi,

the main point of this module (if it is implemented one day) is more to provide a system handling bank account mechanisms. It is aimed at:

- Sites selling digital goods (files, subscriptions, services);
- Sites needing a lot of micro-payments. If you constantly sell digital goods at 1$, it will prevent you from paying half the price in fees;
- Pay in one click without exiting the site;

Best regards.
K.

Korchkidu’s picture

What about mp_pointsflow, mp_creditsflow, mp_wallet ?

Korchkidu’s picture

Hi,

feature has been corrected and updated. Thanks a lot SyndicateStorm for your great help!

Best regards.
K.

syndicateStorm’s picture

Korchkidu, thanks for putting this together! I think I speak for everyone when I say, I'm really looking forward to seeing this module. Cheers.

Stomper’s picture

Would a rental system fall under mp_payments?

Korchkidu’s picture

Hi,

you have a rough overview of the features we want to implement here:
http://docs.google.com/View?id=dhcgfhpn_1whknj8gn

Hope this helps.
Regards.
K.

panthar’s picture

Okay, I think this request is inline what what I am looking for.. I may even develop it or something similar, sponsors would be welcome if anyone wants to.. Also, before, I got into more, great module, I appreciate whats been done so far very much!

Basically, I have the same scenario, a website with multiple sellers on it. I would rather NOT have the money go into MY account. This makes the service much harder to sell to individual companies, and is all-around headache. I want either a % commission or credit based system, where I charge the seller every month. However, if someone can spell out a use-case for this escrow idea, I would be willing to pursue it further, I just don't fully understand how this would work? My limitation is that customers HAVE to be able to make a credit card transaction. Is that possible?

There is one major hurtle here,

It appears like all options involve the SELLER having to have a online-transaction merchant account. This is not preferable, because, they already have a merchant account with for ON-SITE transactions and its another $50/month I have to add to the costs to the seller, additionally, these on-site locations will not like the fact that online merchant accounts have a much higher discount-rate... I would prefer to hook into their ALREADY existing merchant account, can this be done with any payment gateways out there? I have never came across it, but that does not mean it does not exist, thought I would ask...

Maybe easiest solution if I was to do it that way, is what other have suggested about adding additional paypal info to the sellers info, and allow them to take the sales directly. The major flaw with this is again, the monthly fees associated with a paypal merchant account, that I would have to pass onto each seller. This is why I am interested in the escrow idea, if its possible to do without making clients get nervous....

questions about the escrow:

How would you (theoretically) get ALL credit card transactions from USER-purchases into a site-wide escrow account (what service would you use)? Also, do you think that having a escrow account would make companies feel more secure about seller payments? My apology, I don't fully understand the ins and outs of escrow, and how it would work in my scenario?

Thanks and appreciate your responses.

Korchkidu’s picture

hi,

Okay, I think this request is inline what what I am looking for.. I may even develop it or something similar, sponsors would be welcome if anyone wants to.. Also, before, I got into more, great module, I appreciate whats been done so far very much!

The development is started and I hope we could have a first version (not production ready) in July.


Basically, I have the same scenario, a website with multiple sellers on it. I would rather NOT have the money go into MY account. This makes the service much harder to sell to individual companies, and is all-around headache. I want either a % commission or credit based system, where I charge the seller every month. However, if someone can spell out a use-case for this escrow idea, I would be willing to pursue it further, I just don't fully understand how this would work? My limitation is that customers HAVE to be able to make a credit card transaction. Is that possible?

Here, the main idea is that, if you use paypal (or amazon) for each micro-payments, you will have to pay a lot of fees (0.3$ for 1$) which is not what you want. So the idea is to ask the users to deposit money all at once, and then use it on your site with transaction fees (but with commission). This system is definitely oriented towards site selling A LOT of CHEAP digital goods. Otherwise, simply use paypal or Amazon.


How would you (theoretically) get ALL credit card transactions from USER-purchases into a site-wide escrow account (what service would you use)? Also, do you think that having a escrow account would make companies feel more secure about seller payments? My apology, I don't fully understand the ins and outs of escrow, and how it would work in my scenario?

The escrow service will not be implemented in the first draft. So any suggestions are welcome. The idea of an escrow service is just that instead of make the transactions immediate from buyers to sellers, we had a delay or a condition that both buyers and sellers have to confirm. When it is done, the transaction is done. But yes, this will be implemented in a second version so please, do not hesitate to post suggestions and comments.

Once again, the ideal scenario for this module is for sites selling A LOT of CHEAP digital goods. So, using an "internal" payment system is mandatory because directly using paypal or amazon will simply eat 30% of the overall money on you site. For example, check sites selling pictures and so on.

Regards.

Stomper’s picture

I am not sure if this answers your questions concerning the escrow service, panthar, but a theoretical approach to eliminating the need for each seller to have a merchant account would be to have the website that is offering the escrow service to have a merchant account.

The buyer would "pay" the website using the website's merchant account, the payment acknowledgment would be displayed to the seller. Upon arrival of the product and inspection by the buyer, the buyer can authorize the release of funds to the seller. I am not sure if the "releasing" of funds will be considered a payment and thus require the seller to have a merchant account, but the "released" funds could be processed as a refund rather than a payment.

Is this feasible, will this eliminate the need for all parties to have merchant accounts?

panthar’s picture

Ahh, too bad, this is not a feature I am looking for currently. Appreciate the explanation everyone, maybe it will come to use at a later point.

mleitl’s picture

What do you think about this idea:

I also don't want to use paypal masspay to pay the sellers. It is a barrier for new sellers with no paypal account.
I want sellers on my marketplace to sell digital products in a pricerange between 5 and 30 Euros.

The scenario would be Buyer => Marketplace => Seller

The Buyer pays with Creditcard or whatever to the Marketplace.
To avoid to much hassle with thirdparty paymentsystems I would like to export the sellers billingdetails in a file in a given time-period (monthly, weekly ...).

Then I could import this data into my banking-software to transfer the money to the sellers.
There are several common formats for online masspayment wich are implemented in banking software. In Germany we use a format called DTAUS.
After this export, the balance in the sellers account has to be reset.

The export-file should contain:

Name of the seller
Name of the bank
bankaccount-nr.
Nr. of the bank (in Germany BLZ), otherwise IBAN/BIC
Amount of money to pay to the seller excluding the fees for the marketplace-owner.
Description (for example: Name of the Marketplace plus billing cycle)

My questions are:
Is it possible to integrate this export functionalityj in your mp-wallet idea?
How much work is it?
Maybe we could fund the work.

Regards
Michael

panthar’s picture

Not sure if this interests anyone, but I built a Marketplace payment module for PayPal's web-payment pro service.

http://www.ubercart.org/project/mp_paypal

No one has reviewed it or tested it as far as I know.

Milan0’s picture

how is this module progressing? it is exactly what i need.
I actually already worked out a system that works using ub marketplace, userpoints, uc user points, rules and advanced product kit for logic. but this has a high maintenance payload and no feature to cash out the received credits and money.

escrrow is definetly a must for selling services rather than goods!
i want to help develop this module if possible!

Korchkidu’s picture

Hi,

thanks for your interest. Unfortunately, the developer my company hired to do the job let us down. He simply took the first payment and "disappeared". We hired him on drupal.org and we believed he was skillful. We were wrong... We are now actively looking for someone to do the job. I will let you know if we have any news.

K.

Milan0’s picture

Hi,

Wow that is wrong..
is there some way i can possibly collaborate on working on this project?
I want to start development on this in September.
Your outline in the Google doc is very specific, and i want to use most of the requirements.

It would be unfortunate to do duplicate work however...

Milan

Korchkidu’s picture

Hi,

we should be starting this project from scratch on monday. The new schedule is having a first working version dedicated to our site at the beginning of september. Then, we will see what to do more to make it open source. At this date, we will definitely need your help. for sure!

I will let you know about the developments and our results.

Regards.

fehin’s picture

I know most of the suggestions is to pay sellers directly but is it possible to pay sellers directly but have the site pay the paypal or what ever payment system fees? One of the pecks of my site is not having my sellers pay payment gatway fees, it is covered by the commission I take from their sale. Thanks.

Korchkidu’s picture

Hi,

I am not sure to understand what you said so excuse me if my answer is not really what you expected. Also, maybe an example could help. If your idea is just to pay all the withdraw fees, then why not, at withdraw time, compute the fees the seller will have to pay and add them directly to the amount you will add to their paypal account?

Regards.

Milan0’s picture

can't wait! hope development is going well :)

fehin’s picture

H Korchkidu,
What I was trying to say is we should have an option for the store (marketplace owner) to pay the PayPal (or any other merchant) fees and not the seller.

Korchkidu’s picture

The development are still in progress. We had a first developer but he simply took the money and run away... O.o''. The new one is really active and I hope we should have something working in the next weeks. Anyway, we have still lots of things to do to make it open source (genericity, flexibility, etc).

I will let you know.

Best regards.

Korchkidu’s picture

Yes, it could be a useful feature. It will however not be implemented in the first stable version of this module I believe.

Best regards.

lentreprenaute’s picture

Hi,

Don't forget USerpoint, it's a very good way to solve this kind of thing : "t is especially suitable for sites selling many cheap digital goods for which external payment fees would be prohibitive. For example, if you buy an item 1$, you will pay 0.30$ of fees. With this mechanism, your sellers wait until their wallet reaches a certain amount and withdraw their money all at once. "

Thanks
Florent

Milan0’s picture

see below

Milan0’s picture

Actually, this module will be a more advanced userpoints_ubercart, so it will take over alot of functionality.
Will still have to depend on userpoints i think, no need to reinvent that weel.

Korchkidu’s picture

Hi,

a first draft of the module is ready. It is now in the testing process. Then, it will be release to the community as a beta version. It is not depending on user-point actually.

Best regards.

Milan0’s picture

Hi,

Excellent, cant wait :)

Regards
Milan

rafinskipg’s picture

Automatic masspay with paypal: (Needs work)

It works but has one bug

http://drupal.org/node/921488

I need some help, guys!!

sattath’s picture

Subscribing.
I'm very much interested in the ability for a user to cash out his/her points.
Thanks!

arski’s picture

this would be terrific! can't wait!

TajinderSingh’s picture

Subscribing

TajinderSingh’s picture

Hey guys, any update on this?

Milan0’s picture

Also waiting for an update! :)

Korchkidu’s picture

Hi,

thanks for your interest. We have a first stable version. Now we are looking for releasing it on drupal.org. Nothing scheduled yet. I will let you know.

Regards.

TajinderSingh’s picture

Hey,

Thanks for the update.
Any url we can check from till release on Drupal.org

Thanks & Regards

marcus178’s picture

subscribing

arski’s picture

hey hey again, hows the testing going? any chance you could release your first stable version to the community for testing? ;D

Milan0’s picture

I hope no one got run over by a bus ..:)

Milan0’s picture

Hmm, no updates after a month :(

Milan0’s picture

Ok, can't wait any longer, will create my own custom module.

Stomper’s picture

Any plans for seller-controlled rental payment structures?

I would like to support rental of any item type such as tools, furniture etc. Additionally, the seller can control the rental period and rates say hourly, daily, weekly, monthly, etc.

The seller should also limit the rental period ("$30 per month, for up to 6 consecutive months").

arski’s picture

Hey guys,

Could you please please please update us with the status of this?

Are you experiencing some delays because of lack of funding? Can some of that help? Or can some coding work help?

Thanks a lot in advance!

Cheers

Aron Novak’s picture

It will be here in a few days, i will do some code review and cleanups and i have to decide to put it as a separate project or a submodule of übercart marketplace

Stomper’s picture

Look forward to the release.

In terms of looking forward, I feel it may be better to release it as a separate project as it could be extended to other future Drupal ecommerce offerings that's unless submodules can also be extended in the same manner.

Anonymous’s picture

Anonymous’s picture

Subscribe.
Thank you and good luck. I really need this module :-)

Anonymous’s picture

@mleitl -> I also need the same features ^^
Very important...

arski’s picture

"It will be here in a few days" <- *blink* 2 weeks have passed since ;)

Aron Novak’s picture

Status: Active » Needs review

http://drupal.org/project/mp_wallet
I highly appreciate if you test-drive this. I just released it as-is. We tested a lot for an internal project, i tried to get rid of project-specific things, and likely you can use it for your own project. Please fill the issue queue with problems and requests, i try to cope with that :)

Stomper’s picture

Thanks for your work, Aron.

I was just checking the Google docs for this project (https://docs.google.com/View?id=dhcgfhpn_1whknj8gn) and noticed that project developers felt the "escrow system" should be implemented in a separate module.

Will you be tackling this too? Will it be in a different module or be implemented within mp_wallet?

Aron Novak’s picture

hm, what i see in that docs:
"Escrow Service (do not consider in a first time)
Refund Service (do not consider in a first time)"
We're pretty much at the "first time" :) So this is not implemented yet. I think it can be easily added to the mp_wallet module, so i imagine that there will be a "lock" on the part of the balance of the seller, so it can't be deposited or like that, and the buyer can release it when he receives the item. I think a separate module would be overkill just for this.
I don't plan to implement this immediately, now i'd like to see the first impressions of the users. If there will be demand for this feature, of course i will consider to implement it.

psf’s picture

Aron, installed the module mp_wallet. Looks great so far and is exactly what I have been looking for. Received php_curl error which blocks me from enabling paypal module for ubercart... using xampp on local machine and tried enabling in php.ini, but did not work for some reason. I think this is just related to xampp and has nothing to do with the module. Looking forward to testing once curl is enabled and can enable paypal module for ubercart. -- A few questions:

- Once paypal module is enabled, does user need paypal account to deposit / withdraw money?

- Does checkout process take user to paypal site to enter details, or is it a seamless checkout process on my site?

- As a site taking commissions off each transaction that takes place with mp_wallet virtual money, can these commissions be withdrawn on the site admin account through "Withdraw" menu item?

Thanks again for the contribution.

Aron Novak’s picture

Project: Ubercart Marketplace » MP Wallet
Version: 6.x-1.x-dev » 6.x-1.0-beta1

- Once paypal module is enabled, does user need paypal account to deposit / withdraw money?
For deposit, they don't need account. For withdrawal, they have to have an account.

- Does checkout process take user to paypal site to enter details, or is it a seamless checkout process on my site?
No, the normal übercart checkout is nothing to do with paypal, the users can pay from their internal wallet.

- As a site taking commissions off each transaction that takes place with mp_wallet virtual money, can these commissions be withdrawn on the site admin account through "Withdraw" menu item?
No, there is no such option, however the "site wallet" user has an exact and detailed log about the "profit" of the site. The site-wallet is a special user just for collecting commissions.

arivusudar.nc’s picture

Aron, You have done good module, Thank you.

If including this module(http://drupal.org/project/mp_wallet) with escrow services it could be very useful for all and next level of payment process. We are more expecting for new escrow service module using marketplace with ubercart.

Could you please start with escrow implement in existing system or new module. Thank you in advanced

Aron Novak’s picture

arivusudar.nc: i don't think that in the coming moths i will have time for implementing completely new features in mp_waller. However of course i'm committed to maintain the existing functionality or minor changes. i can happily review patches on the other side.

arivusudar.nc’s picture

Aron, Can i hold payment and refund via paypal using with mp_wallet module. Please could you clarify me. If not please could you suggest me any solution for this.

Stomper’s picture

@74, looks like simple way perhaps to support escrow.

Aron Novak’s picture

https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=develo...
There is a refund feature in the API but MP Wallet does not implement it

Stomper’s picture

Is there any way to allow a group of users to split the cost of one item amongst themselves, ie. a group of four members choose to buy a $100 item by each paying $25.

The amount each member contributes to should display on the purchase receipt showing each contributor, the amount each paid, and their ownership stake.

This functionality would be like group buy or group pay. This would be helpful for a marketplace or general e-commerce application.

Possible? Are there any modules that support this or can be hacked together to achieve this functionality?

nyleve101’s picture

Hi Stomper,

did you manage to find a way to achieve this?

apaderno’s picture

Title: Features for mp_payments: a new payment mechanism on Ubercart MarketPlace » Add a new payment mechanism on Ubercart MarketPlace
Issue summary: View changes
Status: Needs review » Closed (outdated)

I am closing this issue, as Drupal 6 is now not supported.