Denied group: Drupal Parents (Needs to be approved)

For what it's worth, I was literally thinking of starting a Drupal Parents group the same day I saw mikey_p tweet about the denial. Every Drupal event I go to I'm sharing pictures of Éowyn to the other parents in the crowd... and there's a lot of us. : )

I'm not entirely sure what the group on g.d.o would facilitate, but I'd be interested to find out. And obviously it's every bit as worthy as other non-technical groups.

I agree with mikey_p. There is a quite a double standard on display in the rejection of this group considering the other ones mikey_p mentioned that have been approved.

Does seem as valid as any of your examples, and more valid than a couple. Further, it could be an investment in the community's future. I sat at a panel at DrupalCon led by a 14-year-old. This is amazing, but not nearly as amazing as the fact that he is a major contributor and earned the right to present. The great thing about open source is kids/youngster can get into it far easier than most other software and we welcome any good contributors. We can enable this by a) reaching out to youngsters and b) reaching out to their parents. It does seem like the mod may have been a tad overhasty on this issue and it would be interesting to see their reasoning.

Below are the responses received from the groups.drupal.org team. Both submissions included details on the purpose of the group as well as explanations of how having the group would benefit the Drupal community. Since professional developers with children often struggle finding time to contribute to Drupal. Having the group would allow us to share tips, successes, failures, and ideas on how to make time to contribute back to Drupal and to make our time more efficient when working on Drupal.

The denial of the first group - Mom and Pop Drop:
Name was coined by Hedgemage's child in our effort to stick to the group guidelines as strictly as possible, ie: avoiding using the word Drupal in the name

Your Group entry entitled "Mom and Pop Drop" has been denied by our content moderator. Our group guidelines are posted at http://groups.drupal.org/node/add/og. The content has been deleted from our site.

Note:
What has raising kids got to do with Drupal?

Regards,
The groups.drupal.org team

The request for clarification of the second group - Drupal Parents:

Your Group entry entitled "Drupal Parents" has been reviewed by our content moderator, but not yet approved.

Note:
On Twitter you said that this group was rejected in the past. What were the reasons?

To respond to the moderator, you can visit http://groups.drupal.org/node/69758/log/response/5b0f860e423cff0891d2de4....

You can visit http://groups.drupal.org/drupal-parents to view it yourself, but is is not yet visible to other site visitors.

Regards,
The groups.drupal.org team

The denial of the second group:

Your Group entry entitled "Drupal Parents" has been denied by our content moderator. Our group guidelines are posted at http://groups.drupal.org/node/add/og. The content has been deleted from our site.

Note:
The individual posts inside groups are not moderated - only the creation of new groups.

It seems like this topic would be better addressed by posting with the context of a regional group, or within the context of a non-Drupal-specific site.

Regards,
The groups.drupal.org team

I'd like a Parents Group please.

http://morten.dk/blog/freya-rocks
i mean come on :D

I see. Wasn't aware of these guidelines as I haven't created any groups in a long time.

Groups should fall into one of three categories:

• working group coordinating on a Drupal feature, module, or distribution
• a geographical user-group such as users in a specific city
• or a Drupal event organizing group such as a DrupalCON organizing group

Given the types of groups that exist already outside these three, I think the fair thing to do short of deleting existing groups that don't fall into one of the categories would be to add a fourth category. Perhaps something about serving a non-geographical subset of users?

See for example: http://groups.drupal.org/ibmers

On Twitter you said that this group was rejected in the past. What were the reasons?

This was my request for clarification but it was about why the first group was denied. I'm personally in favor of having Drupal Parents (and was a member of the group until another admin rejected it).

Our community has gotten large enough that community-focused groups are needed in order to help us take care of our own. Drupal Fit, LGBTQI Drupal, Drupalchix, Young Drupallers and Drupalgängers are all great examples. These aren't regional or working group but are essential for fostering the health of the community.

We need to update the guidelines for new groups.

mikey_p, I know you said to keep this post on track. But having the vote of others on here might make the groups.drupal.org admins realize that this is an important group for the community and that drupal users really do want it.

As a parent, I find it difficult to attend all the regional Drupal events as there generally on weekdays and at night. Having a drupal parents group would yield a group that's aware of these constraints and would create events that children and spouses can attend but would also focus on drupal topics as our kids mingled. I find it easier to meet with a group at the park and talk drupal while the kids play then make sure my wife can stay home that night, get off work early, and make it to a local meetup.

Sorry to post an opinion, but I think this group is very valid and deserves a spot on groups.drupal.org

I'm a parent, and a reasonably active member of the Drupal community. I'm also firmly in support of using groups to support outreach to constituencies that are traditionally underrepresented within the community.

And with that said, I don't see where being a parent has any relevance to being active in the community. It's too broad to be useful, and the goals (at least as stated in #3, above) could apple to any drupal developer:

Since professional developers with children often struggle finding time to contribute to Drupal. Having the group would allow us to share tips, successes, failures, and ideas on how to make time to contribute back to Drupal and to make our time more efficient when working on Drupal.

These aren't unique to parents; this is a common issue to all developers.

What is unique about the parent's group? What will this group contribute that cannot be covered in other groups? As one example, if the purpose of this group was to advocate for introducing Drupal as a tool for family web sites, that would be a different story (and would also require going beyond "Drupal for Parents" but that's another conversation). But, as a parent, I don't see a need for additional support/recognition due to my choice to breed :) My kid is awesome, but that doesn't really matter in how I build web sites.

And, fwiw, I do help out (occasionally) on g.d.o approving groups. I did not have anything to do with this specific decision, but I do feel it is the correct decision.

@bonobo, then what about the other groups that mikey_p mentioned in the original post? Do they make contributions that, as you say, "cannot be covered in other groups"? Again, it seems that there is a double standard being applied in this case.

@shaiss in #11 - I feel you on the local meetups. I would love to have childcare there. I don't go to the local meetups often, for exactly the reasons that you state.

Really, the ideal time for me would be to meet during the working hours, but that choice would alienate/disempower all of the people who can't just leave work to go to an open source meetup.

And this is why bringing this up within a local group would be an ideal solution; people within a specific geographic area could find a time to meet that works for them.

When it comes to scheduling, there is no ideal solution, but again, this is not something that's unique to parents.

@wonder95 - there have been a few requests to keep this thread on topic, but since you asked me a specific question I'll respond quickly - my apologies to others in this thread; feel free to stop reading here:

To my understanding, calling this a "double standard" implies a level of coordinated decision making that doesn't exist. My personal opinion: given the long and ugly history of discrimination against women/LGBTQI populations, and the often unique circumstances surrounding folks under 18 getting involved in open source (in addition to the fact that getting new blood and ideas into the mix is key to our vibrancy as a community) they feel like a good use of the groups ecosystem, despite the fact that they fall outside the definition of g.d.o

As other people have pointed out, this also calls for a need to possibly expand these definitions, and to look at the process for reviewing groups.

Drupal Fit? meh. But that's just my opinion.

What is unique about the parent's group? What will this group contribute that cannot be covered in other groups?

The same questions can be asked about the other existing groups like Drupalchix, Young Drupallers, Drupalgängers, and the same answer should apply in all the cases.

Looking at the type of accepted groups, all those groups should not be accepted.

Groups should fall into one of three categories:

1. working group coordinating on a Drupal feature, module, or distribution
2. a geographical user-group such as users in a specific city
3. or a Drupal event organizing group such as a DrupalCON organizing group

+1 for Drupal Parents and similar groups. They all have the ability to strengthen us as a community - and while they might also have the potential to detract - we've trusted ourselves for a long time to be good people. I have a LOT of respect for the opinions here, especially #16. So - this is just where I am; only +1 - no more, no less.

There doesn't have to be an active coordinated effort for a double standard to exist. Most "unwanted" discrimination these days and in the recent past is uncoordinated. That's what the groups being discriminated against are so upset about half the time. :-)

Really though, if "Drupal for people with a uterus", "Drupal for people not old enough to vote", and "Drupal for people with unconventional sexual preferences or identity" are acceptable groups to have, then I see no reason why "Drupal for people who have already produced offspring" wouldn't be.

And yes I am being crass in my descriptions of all of the above groups quite deliberately. They're all things unrelated to code contribution, documentation contribution, etc. If we're going to have "off topic" community groups, we should have them. If not, then don't.

Sure, it's subjective, but so are many things in the community and we handle them OK.

Two points:

1. This:

Since much of the strength of Drupal relies on a strong community, anything that helps certain members of the community connect and feel included is important and should be considered.

Seems like it boils down a lot of the sentiments that other people have to a succinct sentence so I'm responding to it and similar arguments. It is also a great justification to create a "multi level marketing schemes and Drupal" since those would help people make more money... And yet I really hope we never have a multi-level-marketing group on g.d.o. There are subjective standards we will need to maintain even if we "open the flood gates" and let most of the groups through. But perhaps we can switch to a reactive moderation rather than preventive moderation and switch to a more liberal policy if...

2. I hope Moshe will weigh in here since he has more feelings on this topic, but there are two major reasons we deny groups: splintering conversations and setting up a group that will be a ghost. As has been stated, "tips for being more efficient" is relevant to all of Drupal, not just parents. So we shouldn't bury that conversation in a parents group. A tool that allowed group managers to pull content into their groups would help reduce the pain here. And then ghost groups: a concern is that someone lands on a conversation, clicks to the group it's in, and sees posts from 3 years ago. They are likely to think that Drupal (or the site) is dead. If we had some way to say "This group is somewhat tired, but try out X, Y, Z which are awesome" that were automated then it would be easier to accept groups that appear like they might be candidates for ghosts in the near future...

Anyone interested in working on these technical issues that prevent us from moving to a more relaxed group admittance policy please join http://groups.drupal.org/groups-drupal-org and help brainstorm the problems and some solutions - http://groups.drupal.org/node/70433

RE:

Really though, if "Drupal for people with a uterus", "Drupal for people not old enough to vote", and "Drupal for people with unconventional sexual preferences or identity" are acceptable groups to have, then I see no reason why "Drupal for people who have already produced offspring" wouldn't be.

The one obvious difference between those groupings is that producing offspring is a choice. Age, gender, and sexual orientation, not so much.

And with that, we should really move along to http://groups.drupal.org/node/70433

The one obvious difference between those groupings is that producing offspring is a choice.

That's not a safe assumption to make for everyone. :) I think this argument is really splitting hairs.

Speaking to greggles' point about not burying efficiency tips within the parents' group: there may be many ideas that originate in the parents group that would apply to other groups, but would only come about because of the synergies of the participants. Original ideas that wouldn't happen otherwise would be lost to the community if this group is denied.

Also, just as there's uniqueness within the business part of Drupal, and there are discussions just for that, there's uniqueness within aspects of maintaining a family balance while working with Drupal, including introducing Drupal to kids, that would have some great benefits to the community. This group would also be welcome to new parents as members of the Drupal community start families.

Agreed. This group should be around - and I'd join it.

Why is a parents group is relevant to Drupal? Working with kids in Drupal is a unique challenge. For example, if you attend a con who is going to watch your young child? Where? When? Usually this question is met with blank stares by those who have never had to ask it. (Nothing against those who gave their heart and soul to DrupalconSF, I do appreciate their amazing efforts.)

Often you can coordinate between two parents, but what if both are active members in the community? What if both parents want to go to sprints at night? I make do, but I had several parents ask me how I was doing it at DrupalconSF. There is a need here, it won't be a ghost room, trust me, kids are always changing. I've switched desks and keyboards 3 times in the last year as my toddler grew in her skill levels and height.

It's good for Drupal to have active contributing members, obviously Drupal 7 needs help getting out the door, why wouldn't we allow a group that would help people who are in a bind but want to contribute? It's more than being efficient, being a parent working in Drupal has more challenges than being a woman, or many of the other groups present, because you always have this challenge of making decisions that affect two people, not just yourself. How do you make time to contribute documentation, and file patches, when you work several hours a week just to pay the rent for that extra bedroom?

As someone who has been making sacrifices for this community since before I was a parent, it's disheartening that this is such an issue. Normally I would not reccommend splitting off conversations, at first I wasn't sure about Drupalchix, but there are pracitcal issues that parents working in Drupal face everyday that are not relevant in other discussions, and it would best if we had our place to discuss them without annoying those who do not have these same needs.

I agree that the rules should be changed to help the moderators, especially if this is the direction that the community needs go. But until then at least approve this group in the light of what is already here.

  $groups = array('Drupal Fit', 'LGBTQI Drupal', 'Drupalchix', 'Young Drupallers', 'Drupalgängers', 'Drupal Parents');
  foreach($groups as $group) {
    $loaded_group = group_load($group);
    if (group_access("skip guidelines", $loaded_group)) { // || !empty($loaded_group->has_community_interest)) {
      $accepted_groups[] = $loaded_group;
    } else {
      $denied_groups[] = $loaded_group;
    }
  }
  print_r($denied_groups);

array
(
[0] => Drupal Parents
)

I understand should move to improving g.d.org, but till then, in this case seems like drupal parents has people that want to see the group, and would find it useful, so let em have it perhaps?

Erg, did not mean to change status

Please direct all future commentary here:

http://groups.drupal.org/node/70433

This doesn't make sense. We're not asking to change g.d.o., we're just asking that based on the groups already present there should be no barrier to us having a parents group.

This is not a feature request, Drupalchix and the above mentioned groups did not have to wait for a redesign of g.d.o and some of them have been around for months. Why should we have to wait?

Drupal for people born witha uterus: Approved (despite it being contrary to the stated policy)

Drupal for people who have surgically added a uterus: Approved (despite it being contrary to the stated policy)

Drupal for people wh have used their uterus: No, wait, that's not what this site is for, we can't approve it, let's go make it a vote instead so we don't have to be held accountable for this double standard.

Really? How is that not a double-standard? Is there some reason we're discriminating against people with kids? (Won't somebody think of the children!)

To be honest, I'm not convinced those other groups should have been approved in the first place. Using Drupal for political activism is one thing, but using the d.o infrastructure and Drupal community for political activism is quite another, and is not something I like to see. However, they have been approved despite the current policy to the contrary. I see no justifiable reason to deny a Parents group that would not also apply equally well to closing down the other "special interest groups" that already exist.

There may be a good case to revise how groups are approved, but the current standard as actually applied should be actually applied consistently until it is.

While not endorsing Crell's style, I don't think those other groups should have been approved either.

greggles and joshk have so far looked at this as an infrastructure issue, which of course is fine, but this is a subject that greatly affects how we take care of ourselves, each other and the community. This is another one of those defining moments in Drupal.org's history and I hope we make the right decision.

#31 made my day. Thanks, Crell.

Many thanks, greggles, for actually enabling comments on the "Loosening up the Policy on Groups Acceptance" wiki page at http://groups.drupal.org/node/70433

Let's take this conversation there and, if necessary, reference the comments that are already here, as joshk did. Comments on this issue go to more people via the Drupal.org webmasters project than those who are actually involved in the groups policy.

How about we refocus the issue here. Let's leave the discussion on the guidelines for G.D.O to the wiki noted above.

Instead lets have a GDO admin approve this group. I see no reason why this should have to wait for reworked guidelines. There is obviously support and interest in it so some one needs to approve it. Here's why:

-It serves a subset of our community
-It has support and interest
-It isn't going to be inflammatory or at least shouldn't be

So approve the group.

But several don't think we should approve the group.

This issue as I see it is that the needs of the community outweigh the needs of the few who are obstructing the very same community from growing organically.

Let's talk about examples. There's a Drupalchix track at DrupalCamp LA this summer and posts (such as requests for speakers) are much more visible when cross-posted to the Drupalchix group. People go where they feel welcome and groups like Drupalchix are incubators for great ideas and conversations.

As nodiac said in #24, "there may be many ideas that originate in the one group that would apply to other groups, but would only come about because of the synergies of the participants."

Drupalchix isn't the only example. I just posted on groups.drupal.org about whether or not anyone wants youth events at DrupalCamp LA. If the Young Drupallers group didn't exist, I seriously doubt youth and young adults would have found my post unless they were already in the LA Drupal group.

I'm glad that Young Drupallers exists. It's a small group at the moment but the cost of not being able to better serve our community of young people is too great.

As one of the people in this thread who spoke against this group earlier in the thread, I'm comfortable announcing that this thread, and the accompanying thread on g.d.o has convinced me that my previously held position was underinformed. As several people have pointed out this is an issue about community growth, and the community is clearly at a place where many people see that this group has value.

From a place of wanting to support diversity in the community, I find it mildly troubling that people don't see any difference between the need for a Drupalchix group and a Drupal for Parents group a few short weeks after this. But I digress - the issue of diversity in open source communities is one that goes beyond this thread, and the issue certainly won't be solved by denying a Drupal for Parents group.

So, consider my earlier reservations withdrawn - I have seen the error of my ways.

Toward that end, I'd also like to see the group criteria expanded to permit groups for stakeholder groups that work within the established norms of the Drupal community (aka, Drupal for Parents ok, Drupal for [hate group x] not ok).

Given there has been a separate structure added to deal with modifying the official guidelines to have official guidance on allowing groups like Drupal Parents, Drupalchix, etc, how about approving this group so we can get on with the community-building? Thanks in advance :)

The guidelines are largely reworked, but we need better tools to support the guidelines as well.

This issue is postponed pending reworked guidelines and the tools to support those guidelines.

I want the tools implemented before we let the new rules be our guidelines. If you are interested in helping, the roadmap for improvements exists - http://groups.drupal.org/node/70433

Since I've been ready for this group for awhile, perhaps I'm being impatient but could we just approve this until further notice?

I'm glad for the work being done in http://groups.drupal.org/node/70433, but am not sure how it fully relates as there are no other groups related to being a parent working in Drupal and it wouldn't be a splinter. Perhaps I'm not used to how groups work, but I don't really see how the guidelines being discussed solve the original issue of favoring some groups over others.

I have marked #818434: g.d.o violation as duplicate of this report.

still anxiously awaiting this group (and subscribing).

Just moving this to new component.

I don't see any Drupal Parents nor Parents group, which means this issue is outdated.