WEBVTT 59 00:07:25.270 --> 00:07:30.939 Benji Fisher: Welcome. This is the triple usability meeting for February tenth 2,023, 60 00:07:31.260 --> 00:07:33.299 Benji Fisher: I'm Benji Fisher, moderating 61 00:07:34.090 --> 00:07:37.859 Benji Fisher: and also present, are Aaron Mikhail 62 00:07:38.100 --> 00:07:40.630 Benji Fisher: Ivan darte, Ralph Kohler. 63 00:07:41.010 --> 00:07:42.450 Benji Fisher: Slip Cops 64 00:07:42.840 --> 00:07:44.640 Benji Fisher: and Simo Helstone 65 00:07:45.770 --> 00:07:47.690 Benji Fisher: thank you all for participating. 66 00:07:49.150 --> 00:07:56.099 Benji Fisher: Oh, i'll also I try to keep an eye on chat. So if it's easier for you to type rather than speak. 67 00:07:56.540 --> 00:07:58.999 Benji Fisher: i'll read your comments 68 00:07:59.020 --> 00:08:00.240 into the 69 00:08:01.860 --> 00:08:03.560 Benji Fisher: for the recording. 70 00:08:03.710 --> 00:08:08.710 Benji Fisher: Currently looking at the issue for today's meeting. It's issue number 3, 3, 3, 71 00:08:08.800 --> 00:08:10.859 Benji Fisher: 8, 999. 72 00:08:13.580 --> 00:08:18.439 Benji Fisher: And I'd like to start just briefly reviewing 73 00:08:18.900 --> 00:08:22.189 Benji Fisher: a little bit of progress on something that we've been 74 00:08:22.730 --> 00:08:24.420 Benji Fisher: following for a while. 75 00:08:24.650 --> 00:08:31.709 Benji Fisher: So one is the issue, Create a redirect for the new block types path, which was recently fixed. So that's issue 76 00:08:31.980 --> 00:08:34.970 Benji Fisher: 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 77 00:08:36.929 --> 00:08:41.430 Benji Fisher: and and this is sort of a technical issue. But it's 78 00:08:42.590 --> 00:08:47.060 Benji Fisher: when when we change an admin path which we did in a previous issue. 79 00:08:48.920 --> 00:08:52.329 Benji Fisher: This issue now tells us how we 80 00:08:52.890 --> 00:08:56.620 Benji Fisher: go about managing that we 81 00:08:56.930 --> 00:09:01.269 Benji Fisher: and that warnings to the user we log messages, and so on, and so forth. 82 00:09:02.830 --> 00:09:04.940 Benji Fisher: and and some other technical stuff 83 00:09:05.250 --> 00:09:09.700 Benji Fisher: so. But but it it's kind of exciting, because 84 00:09:09.990 --> 00:09:17.069 Benji Fisher: oh, it's exciting to be, because until now we we've never really changed an admin path. 85 00:09:19.820 --> 00:09:27.520 Benji Fisher: and there are several that you would like to change. And and now that we've done one of them, and agreed on on how the warnings should be. 86 00:09:27.580 --> 00:09:29.660 Benji Fisher: We can go ahead and do others. 87 00:09:29.680 --> 00:09:31.370 Benji Fisher: so 88 00:09:31.510 --> 00:09:36.500 Benji Fisher: I guess the next step in that progress for rearranging the 89 00:09:38.170 --> 00:09:41.529 Benji Fisher: the admin pages for 90 00:09:41.580 --> 00:09:43.870 Benji Fisher: custom blocks or content blocks. 91 00:09:44.320 --> 00:09:52.020 Benji Fisher: The next one is going to be issued 2, 8, 6, 2, 5, 6, 4 move the custom block, vibrated content. 92 00:09:52.140 --> 00:09:58.370 Benji Fisher: There's been a lot of activity on this issue, I think Most recent comment is from Aaron. 93 00:10:01.340 --> 00:10:05.290 Benji Fisher: but that that's one that's been around for a while, and a lot of us. 94 00:10:05.320 --> 00:10:07.120 Benji Fisher: I think it's it's. 95 00:10:09.490 --> 00:10:12.970 Benji Fisher: I think this is the most clear cut of of the 96 00:10:13.700 --> 00:10:17.699 Benji Fisher: related issues. But we're going to move the 97 00:10:18.260 --> 00:10:23.890 Benji Fisher: admin page out of this structure, menu and into the Content menu 98 00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:26.599 Benji Fisher: for for custom blocks. 99 00:10:26.980 --> 00:10:34.649 Benji Fisher: So I hope that within the next week or so we'll, we'll get this one fixed and move on to the next one. 100 00:10:35.070 --> 00:10:37.789 Benji Fisher: and then I. Just before 101 00:10:37.890 --> 00:10:41.630 Benji Fisher: the meeting started I found this one. 102 00:10:41.960 --> 00:10:46.730 Benji Fisher: It's issue 2, 8, 2, 2, 8, 9, 0 103 00:10:47.100 --> 00:10:52.410 Benji Fisher: taxonomy, vocabulary, translation, local tasks tab. 104 00:10:52.480 --> 00:10:54.619 Benji Fisher: not showing in the Ui. 105 00:10:55.010 --> 00:10:59.430 Benji Fisher: And let's see, I think the the screenshots 106 00:10:59.500 --> 00:11:13.349 Benji Fisher: show you everything you need to know when you're looking at the the listing page for vocabulary. You see all these tabs or local tasks list edit manage fields that's forum display, and then display. 107 00:11:13.460 --> 00:11:17.319 Benji Fisher: But you don't see the tab for translation. 108 00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:21.310 Benji Fisher: and then, when you go down to when you do find 109 00:11:23.350 --> 00:11:26.060 Benji Fisher: translating the vocabulary. 110 00:11:26.180 --> 00:11:28.290 Benji Fisher: You don't see all the other 111 00:11:28.760 --> 00:11:29.750 Benji Fisher: tasks. 112 00:11:29.820 --> 00:11:30.950 Benji Fisher: and i'm 113 00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:36.999 Benji Fisher: pretty sure that this needs to be fixed by changing the path. 114 00:11:37.720 --> 00:11:39.190 Benji Fisher: And 115 00:11:39.480 --> 00:11:45.319 Benji Fisher: and now that we know how to change a path, we should be able to to fix this issue issue as well. 116 00:11:49.230 --> 00:11:50.250 Benji Fisher: So 117 00:11:50.790 --> 00:11:52.759 that's 118 00:11:52.900 --> 00:12:00.800 Benji Fisher: just my my quick overview of this recent progress, any questions or comments on those issues. Aaron, you have your hand raised. 119 00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:16.489 Aaron McHale: Thanks, Benjy. Yeah, again. It's. It's super great to see. You know, with the work that we've we all know to get down on those. And with any luck 10.1 is practically not that far, so maybe we can get them all done. But 120 00:12:16.500 --> 00:12:34.790 Aaron McHale: the the thing that's been on my mind actually is with the the the path we've as you as I've described. There. We've effectively established a new pattern here, for how we approach, you know, changing paths and redirect, and I i'm mindful that we it' be good to me document that somewhere, so that we can point to in future 121 00:12:34.800 --> 00:12:49.859 Aaron McHale: picture reference. And I I don't know I I don't know if these sort of user interface standards like a subpage there. Or if there's I know there's been talk of a. E. This obviously we have the admin you. I design system, and and maybe I should speak to you about whether that will include 122 00:12:49.890 --> 00:12:52.559 Aaron McHale: ultimately this kind of documentation about 123 00:12:52.580 --> 00:13:08.180 Aaron McHale: how we deal with these, that these kind of patterns that involve your different. You know this user interface. Yeah, rather. But so these user interaction patterns is what I was trying to say. So yeah, I thought through that out there to the group and see if people have any thoughts on that as well. 124 00:13:09.100 --> 00:13:16.100 Benji Fisher: Yeah, I I guess there are 2 questions there. What one is we we should have some sort of 125 00:13:16.860 --> 00:13:25.080 Benji Fisher: guidelines for what the path should be, and that that's a question of usability and interaction. And second part is. 126 00:13:25.130 --> 00:13:31.649 Benji Fisher: when you decide you need to change one as we're doing now, how do you do that? That's more of a technical issue. 127 00:13:31.830 --> 00:13:34.010 There is already 128 00:13:34.080 --> 00:13:38.770 Benji Fisher: an open issue policy. No patch determine the best practice 129 00:13:38.990 --> 00:13:42.219 Benji Fisher: for providing BC. Or backwards. Compatibility 130 00:13:42.310 --> 00:13:47.350 Benji Fisher: for internal paths to change between minor releases. This is issue 333, 131 00:13:47.680 --> 00:13:53.710 Benji Fisher: 3, 3, 9, 4, and that was opened as as part of of this process. 132 00:13:53.860 --> 00:13:57.610 Benji Fisher: So that issue is open, and I've suggested. 133 00:13:57.920 --> 00:13:58.980 I think, most. 134 00:14:00.280 --> 00:14:01.180 Oh. 135 00:14:01.430 --> 00:14:02.829 Benji Fisher: yes, Here it is. 136 00:14:05.640 --> 00:14:08.809 Benji Fisher: I I suggested in the comment here that we 137 00:14:09.540 --> 00:14:17.200 Benji Fisher: make this a documentation issue and create a documentation page for for this sort of the the back end part of this question. 138 00:14:17.570 --> 00:14:30.300 Aaron McHale: Yeah, I I think that's a sensible step, and we could probably use that issue to refine what? That is, because, as you said, we've got there's a No, I I think there's a number of different things involved there. It's like when you see there's a need to change a path 139 00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:50.129 Aaron McHale: honestly. What the new past should be is is, of course, a question that needs to be discussed. But there are things there we can. We can codify in documentation and policy, like, for instance, what the messages, what type of redirect to use. You know what the the root name is. Not all of them are. It's, you know. Not All those are usability questions, but it it's 140 00:14:50.140 --> 00:15:14.640 Aaron McHale: together. They form a a pattern of how we handle that change. So, as I said, i'm not sure whether the user interface standards are, or the ideal place for that. They They do touch on it because it is an element of it's a pattern that is going to expose itself through the user interface. Maybe there is a more, a a different part of the documentation more appropriate. But yeah, maybe we should use that issue to certainly figure out these things. 141 00:15:15.670 --> 00:15:17.850 Benji Fisher: Yeah, and and see. What do you want to say something? 142 00:15:20.130 --> 00:15:25.199 Simo Hellsten: No, I was just switching devices. So that's why sorry. Okay? 143 00:15:25.630 --> 00:15:28.459 Okay. So that's 144 00:15:28.900 --> 00:15:29.490 oh. 145 00:15:30.660 --> 00:15:37.389 Benji Fisher: all I wanted to say how release, screen share, and if someone else has an issue they like to bring up. 146 00:15:39.230 --> 00:15:40.450 Benji Fisher: Now is the time 147 00:15:41.110 --> 00:15:43.559 Benji Fisher: I think the shop up for I 148 00:15:44.920 --> 00:15:46.090 Benji Fisher: either, if you ready 149 00:15:51.820 --> 00:15:58.150 Simo Hellsten: there is, I don't actually have an issue at the moment. But I was looking at the least. 150 00:15:58.420 --> 00:16:06.800 Simo Hellsten: and I noticed there is a 1. One of the issues that doesn't have needs ex needs usable review tag. 151 00:16:07.160 --> 00:16:09.170 Simo Hellsten: So I was wondering if it's a some. 152 00:16:09.210 --> 00:16:14.310 Simo Hellsten: so I can't really remember if that is something that we already checked? 153 00:16:14.580 --> 00:16:21.169 Simo Hellsten: Or is it something that that we maybe some of us forgot to tag when it was in Accessibility 154 00:16:21.850 --> 00:16:22.820 Simo Hellsten: Review. 155 00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:25.519 Simo Hellsten: So that was 156 00:16:28.810 --> 00:16:34.719 Benji Fisher: I. I. I would like to start with the the issue you want for you there. 157 00:16:34.870 --> 00:16:48.170 Ivan Duarte: Yeah, I'm: here. Yeah, do you like me to share my screen? Okay, I will do that right now. So let me, please. Okay, let me know 158 00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:53.370 Ivan Duarte: this. Yeah, I see your screen. Can you start with the the issue? 159 00:16:53.840 --> 00:17:00.109 Benji Fisher: So yeah, this is the the issue. 160 00:17:00.290 --> 00:17:06.520 Ivan Duarte: It is about a rewarding this, a message that is being shown to the, to the Us. Or him. Some 161 00:17:06.650 --> 00:17:09.090 Ivan Duarte: forms when they do some 162 00:17:09.109 --> 00:17:12.979 Ivan Duarte: selections, so the recording what's the issue? Number 163 00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:19.870 Ivan Duarte: Yeah. Addition number is this: 1, 3, 2, 6, 5, 6, 1, 6. 164 00:17:22.230 --> 00:17:26.919 Ivan Duarte: Okay. So yeah, in general, I I follow the 165 00:17:26.980 --> 00:17:43.439 Ivan Duarte: the steps to reproduce the issue, and I will say that this is step to enable the label enabling this this part didn't work. I needed to do that the other way around the to copy the the the module, and enable things. 166 00:17:43.450 --> 00:17:57.089 Ivan Duarte: and I think, in general reading all the discussion on all the comments. There are multiple places when Jupiter used to show this message to the user but it it's a little hard to see from from there 167 00:17:57.230 --> 00:18:00.099 Benji Fisher: screenshot what the message is. Can. Can you 168 00:18:00.390 --> 00:18:15.409 Ivan Duarte: show us what this is on on the website? Do you have a a test site running? Yeah, I have the test sighting here. So this is the the test form that you have in the in the issue, as you can see. When I select, for example, in this case it both 169 00:18:15.650 --> 00:18:28.689 Ivan Duarte: checkbooks enable. This is the issue, and a legal choice has been detected. And please contact this side administrator as far as the end of the day. The conversation in this issue. 170 00:18:28.810 --> 00:18:30.340 Ivan Duarte: The intention is to 171 00:18:30.450 --> 00:18:35.380 Ivan Duarte: at first remove this. I legal work, because it means like something that is really 172 00:18:35.390 --> 00:18:51.690 Ivan Duarte: against the the low, and it replaces but invalid or invalid choice, or something similar, and also at the end just, was suggesting to remove this part, the the last. The first, a reason is because the police is something that 173 00:18:51.700 --> 00:19:08.199 Ivan Duarte: based on the on the new standards, for the for the text that that Drupal wants to to use the the wording. For example, here are sorry, then, going really fast to the end of the issue. But here, yeah, in these guidelines about the 174 00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:16.379 Ivan Duarte: the the interface takes a style they work, please, is like not recommended in this 175 00:19:16.390 --> 00:19:34.259 Ivan Duarte: in this case, and also because sometimes these message used to be shown also to developers. So this is not really giving you a a an inside out what's happening? So a she's proposing to remove this part completely, because these were on also because it doesn't 176 00:19:34.270 --> 00:19:39.599 Ivan Duarte: help to the user to find the real reason, or that we are issue in this case. 177 00:19:39.660 --> 00:19:49.549 Ivan Duarte: So the proposal here is to replace all of these For something like this an invalid for value was submitted. 178 00:19:49.850 --> 00:19:58.219 Ivan Duarte: It had to to be more a specific about the issue, and also to remove the parts that are not given via 179 00:19:58.260 --> 00:20:06.120 Ivan Duarte: information about the the issue that's happening. So I would say that's it for this issue, and that's the the reason 180 00:20:06.200 --> 00:20:08.759 Ivan Duarte: they the issues being discussed here. 181 00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:11.520 Benji Fisher: or else go ahead. 182 00:20:14.780 --> 00:20:15.930 Benji Fisher: You're still muted. 183 00:20:17.610 --> 00:20:19.829 Ralf Koller: Thanks. I'm sorry 184 00:20:20.020 --> 00:20:21.409 Ralf Koller: there are 2 things. 185 00:20:21.740 --> 00:20:26.250 Ralf Koller: At first I agree that illegal. The term is loaded. 186 00:20:26.820 --> 00:20:32.740 Ralf Koller: But in regards of the terminology I've quickly checked. Before the meeting. 187 00:20:33.940 --> 00:20:39.599 Ralf Koller: Tory Porter Mangowski brings in another aspect in her book strategic writing for yaks 188 00:20:39.680 --> 00:20:49.529 Ralf Koller: in her book invalid was noted as a prominent example in the context of error Messages She notes that most augs prefer to avoid such emotionally loaded 189 00:20:49.810 --> 00:20:56.209 Ralf Koller: words. People really want to be told that they have failed, and it's really best way to encourage them to move forward. And 190 00:20:56.550 --> 00:21:03.530 Ralf Koller: there's also to consider that invalid has been used in the United States to describe people with disabilities, and is. 191 00:21:03.640 --> 00:21:18.550 Ralf Koller: and it's viewed as an a placed word, and I've also checked in the disability and inclusion, strategy, strategy, light line from 2,019 invented is also listed. So maybe 192 00:21:18.600 --> 00:21:21.169 Ralf Koller: it is also not the best choice 193 00:21:21.250 --> 00:21:22.240 Ralf Koller: and 194 00:21:23.450 --> 00:21:25.490 Ralf Koller: the terminology aside. 195 00:21:25.780 --> 00:21:28.120 Ralf Koller: Neither illegal nor 196 00:21:28.190 --> 00:21:33.570 Ralf Koller: invalid explains to the user what is actually 197 00:21:33.700 --> 00:21:35.200 Ralf Koller: wrong on. 198 00:21:35.410 --> 00:21:38.999 Ralf Koller: and how the issue could be resolved the era. So 199 00:21:40.330 --> 00:21:41.600 Ralf Koller: i'm not sure 200 00:21:45.280 --> 00:21:46.530 Ralf Koller: if the 201 00:21:46.760 --> 00:21:52.070 Ralf Koller: change would solve it just by changing it from illegal to invalid. But yeah. 202 00:21:57.270 --> 00:21:58.610 Benji Fisher: okay. 203 00:21:59.310 --> 00:22:00.460 Benji Fisher: I I I 204 00:22:01.620 --> 00:22:08.910 Benji Fisher: a little surprised at at at that analysis. 1 one part of it that it's used to describe 205 00:22:09.470 --> 00:22:12.040 Benji Fisher: a disabled person. 206 00:22:12.390 --> 00:22:13.610 It 207 00:22:14.200 --> 00:22:15.540 Benji Fisher: when it's used as an 208 00:22:15.720 --> 00:22:26.680 Benji Fisher: it's it's really 2 different words that happen to be spelled the same way. One is an adjective, and it's pronounced invalid, and the other is a noun, and it's pronounced invalid. 209 00:22:28.290 --> 00:22:35.619 Benji Fisher: It's a curious bit of the English language that you can have 2 different words spell the same way. 210 00:22:35.840 --> 00:22:40.770 Benji Fisher: But I I think, at least for native English speakers. 211 00:22:41.350 --> 00:22:44.679 Benji Fisher: that confusion is unlikely, but but perhaps 212 00:22:46.900 --> 00:22:48.709 Benji Fisher: perhaps not, for speakers 213 00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:55.009 Benji Fisher: would would have more trouble with it. And I I I'd still like to have an alternative, suggested 214 00:22:55.150 --> 00:22:56.749 Aaron. Go ahead. 215 00:22:57.410 --> 00:22:58.750 Aaron McHale: Thanks. 216 00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:02.180 Aaron McHale: Yeah, it's an interesting one. I think 217 00:23:02.540 --> 00:23:03.520 Aaron McHale: the 218 00:23:03.570 --> 00:23:07.760 Aaron McHale: we generally want to try and use 219 00:23:08.120 --> 00:23:09.999 Aaron McHale: you. Don't play. Yeah. 220 00:23:10.230 --> 00:23:14.829 Aaron McHale: keep it at simple you terms that are easy to understand. So if 221 00:23:14.980 --> 00:23:18.820 Aaron McHale: you know there's a there's a risk I haven't I mean. Well. Ralph mentioned that 222 00:23:18.860 --> 00:23:25.909 Aaron McHale: you're you're coming at branches. Had you been to my head, because to me it I I just always associate that word 223 00:23:25.940 --> 00:23:29.180 Aaron McHale: the way it spell with the word invalid, and 224 00:23:29.210 --> 00:23:31.850 Aaron McHale: meeting to something to do with submission, but 225 00:23:33.140 --> 00:23:37.409 Aaron McHale: never even everything crossed, and I the the other meeting. But 226 00:23:37.510 --> 00:23:48.780 Aaron McHale: you know it. Yeah, I I think the main thing is we we want particularly with error messages. We want them to be this stuff descriptive and and and you know, actionable. So 227 00:23:48.950 --> 00:23:49.670 Aaron McHale: and 228 00:23:49.760 --> 00:23:53.650 Aaron McHale: I I think, yeah, substituting illegal for invalid doesn't. Really 229 00:23:53.700 --> 00:23:54.850 Aaron McHale: add anything 230 00:23:55.170 --> 00:24:05.129 Aaron McHale: doesn't, really add anything there, but also at least with the current message. They actually just, you know, contact the site Administrator. If we remove that, then 231 00:24:05.190 --> 00:24:06.360 Aaron McHale: there's there's 232 00:24:06.550 --> 00:24:11.490 Aaron McHale: No, you know. Obviously we want to try and provide something better. But 233 00:24:11.590 --> 00:24:13.070 Aaron McHale: there isn't 234 00:24:13.260 --> 00:24:15.089 Aaron McHale: a self call to action there. 235 00:24:15.940 --> 00:24:18.670 Aaron McHale: and I wonder 236 00:24:18.760 --> 00:24:20.080 Aaron McHale: what what is. 237 00:24:20.420 --> 00:24:24.460 Aaron McHale: What is the situation where a user would end up seeing this 238 00:24:24.600 --> 00:24:25.590 Aaron McHale: message. 239 00:24:25.760 --> 00:24:28.760 Aaron McHale: is it? If there's no other suitable 240 00:24:29.190 --> 00:24:30.650 Aaron McHale: message to display? 241 00:24:33.850 --> 00:24:37.940 Benji Fisher: I think I've seen that when 242 00:24:38.650 --> 00:24:41.549 Benji Fisher: there's, for example, a select list. 243 00:24:42.100 --> 00:24:45.720 Benji Fisher: and somehow you post the forum without 244 00:24:46.180 --> 00:24:48.690 Benji Fisher: one of the options 245 00:24:49.100 --> 00:24:55.750 Benji Fisher: or or there is a an error in the form processing, and it doesn't recognize one of the options it presents 246 00:24:57.420 --> 00:24:58.640 Aaron McHale: so. 247 00:24:58.900 --> 00:25:01.109 Benji Fisher: Oh, for example. 248 00:25:01.210 --> 00:25:04.819 Benji Fisher: if you look at recent log messages 249 00:25:05.240 --> 00:25:09.419 Benji Fisher: and you look for messages from the 250 00:25:09.580 --> 00:25:17.089 Benji Fisher: I don't know the the comment module, and there aren't any messages from the comment module. I think you'll get this message. 251 00:25:19.380 --> 00:25:20.720 Aaron McHale: Okay. So 252 00:25:23.780 --> 00:25:25.860 Aaron McHale: So is this a sort of 253 00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:28.659 Aaron McHale: like a fall back to when 254 00:25:31.270 --> 00:25:35.570 Aaron McHale: you know I us a suitable error isn't available, or has it been. 255 00:25:37.570 --> 00:25:40.869 Aaron McHale: you know, if there's another. Another more specific message. 256 00:25:41.150 --> 00:25:45.230 Aaron McHale: like, for instance, you know, if you exceed the max of the length of the field. 257 00:25:45.460 --> 00:25:48.720 Aaron McHale: I I think you'll get a message that something like, you know your 258 00:25:48.930 --> 00:25:50.989 Aaron McHale: the field of value is too long. Right? 259 00:25:52.290 --> 00:25:54.710 Aaron McHale: That's a more specific message. 260 00:25:54.850 --> 00:25:56.030 Aaron McHale: I would consider. 261 00:25:56.760 --> 00:25:58.330 Yes. 262 00:25:59.060 --> 00:26:00.590 Ivan Duarte: yeah, the baby. 263 00:26:00.670 --> 00:26:15.120 Ivan Duarte: In this case we need to analyze the the code deeper and understand which a situation are triggering this a kind of messages. Because, yeah, I agree. If if in this case, maybe the the issues, because I cannot select more than one. 264 00:26:15.290 --> 00:26:23.389 Ivan Duarte: The the the message should be more a specific about that. Maybe this is a a really all code from from. 265 00:26:23.430 --> 00:26:31.019 Ivan Duarte: But maybe we need to really go deeper and analyze the code and find out best way to provide that an error message here. 266 00:26:32.850 --> 00:26:41.890 Benji Fisher: Yeah. So I completely agree with Aaron that descriptive and actionable are. Are they criteria for an error message? 267 00:26:42.040 --> 00:26:47.080 Benji Fisher: I don't think that contacting the side administrator is 268 00:26:47.480 --> 00:26:51.120 Benji Fisher: normally the right thing to do at this point. 269 00:26:53.860 --> 00:27:04.459 Aaron McHale: So yeah, to to be clear, i'm not saying it's a good. Actually, it's just it. It's a. It's an action that the user could take so compared to nothing there at all. 270 00:27:05.290 --> 00:27:12.270 Benji Fisher: And and and also I I posted into the zoom chat, the proposed wording and invalid formality was submitted. 271 00:27:12.980 --> 00:27:15.470 Benji Fisher: which, by the way. 272 00:27:15.730 --> 00:27:20.159 Benji Fisher: is still in the passive voice. I wonder if we could rephrase it 273 00:27:21.020 --> 00:27:23.089 Benji Fisher: in the active voice, something like 274 00:27:25.540 --> 00:27:27.030 Benji Fisher: the the form 275 00:27:27.420 --> 00:27:29.410 Benji Fisher: could not process 276 00:27:30.900 --> 00:27:32.789 Benji Fisher: these choices. 277 00:27:34.140 --> 00:27:35.730 Benji Fisher: these inputs. 278 00:27:43.580 --> 00:27:48.509 Simo Hellsten: What do we use the word? The words not accepted 279 00:27:52.360 --> 00:27:53.770 Simo Hellsten: or not allowed. 280 00:27:56.880 --> 00:28:02.569 Ivan Duarte: Yeah, maybe something like the balanced your you submit, are not allowed something like that. 281 00:28:04.480 --> 00:28:09.189 Aaron McHale: Yeah, I to to be honest, like it's really hard to. Because again, you know. 282 00:28:09.310 --> 00:28:12.209 Aaron McHale: like we just discussed that we don't know 283 00:28:12.310 --> 00:28:14.830 Aaron McHale: exactly when this is light. Let's come up some 284 00:28:14.890 --> 00:28:15.790 Aaron McHale: what I think 285 00:28:15.980 --> 00:28:17.470 Aaron McHale: you know as a 286 00:28:17.930 --> 00:28:30.819 Aaron McHale: As I even said, maybe they need to go back and and actually figure out. Okay, these are the situations. You would see this message, and then maybe a better solution is let's just write some more specific error messages for those situations. 287 00:28:30.970 --> 00:28:36.529 Aaron McHale: and then maybe there is an ultimate like Fall back message that gets displayed, and that's fine. 288 00:28:36.770 --> 00:28:46.759 Aaron McHale: But at least, that if we have more information we can. You know, if we'd brought this issue back up once we have that information, we'd be able to make a more informed recommendation. 289 00:28:47.650 --> 00:28:55.730 Benji Fisher: Well, let's let's keep scope in mind. This issue can't handle more specific error messages for every single form and triple. 290 00:28:55.800 --> 00:28:58.720 Benji Fisher: We are just talking about this fall back. 291 00:28:59.390 --> 00:29:06.890 Aaron McHale: I I guess, like i'm thinking if you've got a you know, a select list right, that that it's the Widget that's going to be. 292 00:29:07.900 --> 00:29:11.939 Aaron McHale: I think it' be like the wedge or something something to do with that specific 293 00:29:12.120 --> 00:29:13.950 Aaron McHale: field that will be 294 00:29:14.530 --> 00:29:16.570 Aaron McHale: throwing up the error. So 295 00:29:19.140 --> 00:29:22.219 Benji Fisher: Yvonne suggests in the chat. 296 00:29:22.300 --> 00:29:25.110 Benji Fisher: The submitted values are not allowed. 297 00:29:31.230 --> 00:29:32.190 Benji Fisher: and 298 00:29:34.250 --> 00:29:39.689 Benji Fisher: it it's not explicitly actionable, but it at least it's it getting 299 00:29:41.010 --> 00:29:42.479 Benji Fisher: to the point that 300 00:29:43.330 --> 00:29:46.599 Benji Fisher: you know what you should do at this point is. 301 00:29:47.240 --> 00:29:49.639 Benji Fisher: choose different options. 302 00:29:57.260 --> 00:30:00.999 Aaron McHale: So I could also see a situation where this error comes up, because 303 00:30:01.370 --> 00:30:04.739 Aaron McHale: there's a potentially a bug in the the form Logic? 304 00:30:05.280 --> 00:30:10.270 Aaron McHale: Yes. So in that situation the user might not actually be able to choose a different option, though 305 00:30:25.150 --> 00:30:37.720 Ivan Duarte: is it possible in cases like that, maybe to to have a a documentation page and do about where the situation may happen. And you set up saying, please contact side Administrator 306 00:30:37.810 --> 00:30:38.820 Ivan Duarte: A. 307 00:30:38.990 --> 00:30:45.290 Ivan Duarte: We can show a message, genetic message, and then a link for the people to read more about 308 00:30:45.350 --> 00:30:51.149 Ivan Duarte: these kind of situations. How they use to produce these errors. For, as you said, maybe 309 00:30:53.030 --> 00:30:57.459 Ivan Duarte: about logic in the in the form 310 00:30:57.600 --> 00:31:11.380 Ivan Duarte: code, or something like that, so maybe at least the user can read what could happen in this case? Maybe there is an an error from the developer and error from the administrator, and therefore, but at least there will be a more context about the the issue. 311 00:31:16.650 --> 00:31:17.690 Aaron McHale: I don't that would 312 00:31:18.170 --> 00:31:18.800 Aaron McHale: cool. 313 00:31:19.170 --> 00:31:19.910 Benji Fisher: Go ahead. 314 00:31:20.380 --> 00:31:26.040 Aaron McHale: I was gonna say, I think that'd be okay on the on the Admin. Side, but on the front end that would be really hesitant to 315 00:31:26.140 --> 00:31:28.600 Aaron McHale: link to a drupal documentation page, because 316 00:31:28.820 --> 00:31:37.170 Aaron McHale: well for for one, the user probably doesn't know they're on a triple site, and also like this site might not want to be linking users to triple documentation. 317 00:31:54.330 --> 00:31:55.540 Aaron McHale: Maybe the 318 00:31:55.570 --> 00:32:04.270 Aaron McHale: it, You know it. I I've okay. So if we assume that this message is like the fall back message like a lost a message of last resort, let's say 319 00:32:04.760 --> 00:32:12.440 Aaron McHale: I, I think the only thing, even in like that situation where, like the Forum itself, is broken, and you get this message, maybe to Only 320 00:32:12.490 --> 00:32:22.770 Aaron McHale: the only possible action is actually to contact the site. But instead of seeing contact, the site administrator, we link to the site wide contact form, if that's available. 321 00:32:37.800 --> 00:32:43.089 Benji Fisher: Actually, if you're still sharing your screen. Could Could you go to the 322 00:32:44.100 --> 00:32:49.470 Benji Fisher: Admin. Reports TV log the recent log messages 323 00:32:51.620 --> 00:32:53.880 Ivan Duarte: that messages here? 324 00:32:54.470 --> 00:32:55.250 Ivan Duarte: Yeah. 325 00:32:55.960 --> 00:33:03.030 Benji Fisher: And select one of the 4 types? No, I don't want a particular message. I I want the listing page 326 00:33:03.410 --> 00:33:07.549 Benji Fisher: and and don't scroll down in the upper left corner. 327 00:33:07.910 --> 00:33:09.620 Benji Fisher: Just choose any one type 328 00:33:09.940 --> 00:33:11.410 Benji Fisher: and click the filter button. 329 00:33:12.890 --> 00:33:16.310 Benji Fisher: Okay. And now go to your address bar 330 00:33:16.620 --> 00:33:18.590 Benji Fisher: and replace 331 00:33:19.080 --> 00:33:21.180 Benji Fisher: I I can't make it out. Does that form? 332 00:33:23.840 --> 00:33:26.030 Benji Fisher: Yeah, just to place that would say, comment 333 00:33:30.350 --> 00:33:31.390 Benji Fisher: that 334 00:33:33.640 --> 00:33:36.410 Benji Fisher: I think that those are better steps to reproduce. 335 00:33:37.610 --> 00:33:38.380 Yeah. 336 00:33:38.840 --> 00:33:39.540 Aaron McHale: Yeah. 337 00:33:41.060 --> 00:33:46.839 Benji Fisher: And and there is already more specific message at the bottom of the page. You can see 338 00:33:46.900 --> 00:33:49.570 Benji Fisher: no log messages available. 339 00:33:49.710 --> 00:33:53.620 Benji Fisher: but we also get this standard error message. 340 00:33:59.890 --> 00:34:01.480 Simo Hellsten: So it's the same. 341 00:34:01.510 --> 00:34:02.790 Simo Hellsten: There are a message 342 00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:05.799 Simo Hellsten: whether or not it's a something that is 343 00:34:05.920 --> 00:34:10.120 Simo Hellsten: chosen on the form or so, or something that is chosen 344 00:34:10.150 --> 00:34:11.620 Simo Hellsten: in the URL, 345 00:34:13.230 --> 00:34:15.239 Simo Hellsten: or written in the URL. 346 00:34:15.400 --> 00:34:16.649 Simo Hellsten: So that's kind of a 347 00:34:17.210 --> 00:34:18.349 Simo Hellsten: this not too 348 00:34:20.199 --> 00:34:21.339 Simo Hellsten: refer to. 349 00:34:23.179 --> 00:34:25.069 Simo Hellsten: Yeah, do: do? Yeah. 350 00:34:25.120 --> 00:34:30.329 Simo Hellsten: But then again, like typing in the URL, it's kind of submission as well. 351 00:34:30.389 --> 00:34:32.429 Simo Hellsten: even if it's not submit. Button. 352 00:34:35.070 --> 00:34:41.320 Ivan Duarte: Yeah, in this case I just change it to the, to the one that I propose. So yeah, maybe that will be a different message. But 353 00:34:49.540 --> 00:34:54.589 Benji Fisher: on Ralph asks in the chat. Does the type comment exist for log questions? 354 00:34:54.620 --> 00:35:01.359 Benji Fisher: Yes, there is a comment, module, and and it does sometimes log messages. 355 00:35:07.940 --> 00:35:09.880 Ralf Koller: It means that 356 00:35:10.350 --> 00:35:17.329 Ralf Koller: right? That type exists, but that type Isn't listed in the select field, and therefore the error message 357 00:35:17.690 --> 00:35:18.689 Ralf Koller: what's cost? 358 00:35:20.240 --> 00:35:21.799 Ralf Koller: Yes, okay. 359 00:35:22.220 --> 00:35:23.620 Ralf Koller: Thanks. For 360 00:35:23.880 --> 00:35:29.540 Simo Hellsten: actually, in this case, I think this submitted values are not allowed is 361 00:35:29.820 --> 00:35:31.000 Simo Hellsten: even better. 362 00:35:31.260 --> 00:35:33.209 Simo Hellsten: because that's kind of 363 00:35:34.520 --> 00:35:39.950 Simo Hellsten: value kind of exists, but it's not allowed, because the module is not enabled. 364 00:35:57.060 --> 00:36:02.269 Benji Fisher: I think perhaps we should stop. The discussion here 365 00:36:03.250 --> 00:36:06.660 Benji Fisher: makes some recommendations. 366 00:36:06.940 --> 00:36:09.499 Benji Fisher: Avoid the word invalid. 367 00:36:12.010 --> 00:36:14.709 Benji Fisher: and rephrase the 368 00:36:14.820 --> 00:36:17.839 Benji Fisher: message in the active voice. 369 00:36:19.290 --> 00:36:24.179 Benji Fisher: and suggest this wording submitted, values are not allowed. 370 00:36:24.370 --> 00:36:26.189 Benji Fisher: and 371 00:36:26.540 --> 00:36:29.429 Benji Fisher: and perhaps the people working on the issue can 372 00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:34.269 Benji Fisher: come up with some alternatives and and 373 00:36:34.300 --> 00:36:36.090 Benji Fisher: choose one of the page refer. 374 00:36:38.620 --> 00:36:45.930 Benji Fisher: You know. I'll also bring up the the standard criteria that Aaron mentioned, descriptive and actionable. 375 00:36:46.860 --> 00:36:48.839 Benji Fisher: and the 376 00:36:48.900 --> 00:36:54.530 Benji Fisher: and and I think we agree with the comments already made. That contacting side administrator 377 00:36:54.580 --> 00:36:58.269 Benji Fisher: is not the action we should normally be recommending 378 00:36:58.440 --> 00:37:00.999 Benji Fisher: frequently, just by 379 00:37:01.060 --> 00:37:04.360 Benji Fisher: changing the the choices on the form 380 00:37:06.590 --> 00:37:10.359 Benji Fisher: you can get what you want 381 00:37:11.570 --> 00:37:13.690 Benji Fisher: most of the time. It's not 382 00:37:14.390 --> 00:37:20.049 Benji Fisher: important to contact Administrator. It's not not an issue with it that has to be fixed. 383 00:37:24.320 --> 00:37:29.790 Benji Fisher: and I I think, in this case sort of describing what the problem is 384 00:37:30.530 --> 00:37:35.129 Benji Fisher: is enough. We we don't have to give, and we can't. Really. Yeah 385 00:37:35.900 --> 00:37:39.090 Benji Fisher: explicit steps on what to do next. 386 00:37:41.060 --> 00:37:46.149 Benji Fisher: Is that all right, or or do people want to continue brainstorming on on the actual 387 00:37:46.290 --> 00:37:47.040 Benji Fisher: wording? 388 00:37:48.230 --> 00:37:52.549 schlaukopf: I I just had one comment fortunately, in in in the court 389 00:37:52.810 --> 00:37:58.389 schlaukopf: there is 2 validations. The first one is the the one Did you do it 390 00:37:58.710 --> 00:38:01.580 schlaukopf: where you have the 391 00:38:01.940 --> 00:38:05.680 schlaukopf: the option and not part of the option that you had for the for the 392 00:38:05.770 --> 00:38:10.100 schlaukopf: for the sign up, or or it they want to send it. 393 00:38:10.350 --> 00:38:16.319 schlaukopf: and the other is probably the one that Ivan was showing us the beginning. 394 00:38:16.570 --> 00:38:18.670 schlaukopf: What do you have in 395 00:38:19.550 --> 00:38:20.890 schlaukopf: multiple 396 00:38:22.010 --> 00:38:23.689 schlaukopf: and non multiple setup? 397 00:38:23.900 --> 00:38:25.860 schlaukopf: And you get the message? 398 00:38:26.450 --> 00:38:29.769 So I think for the second one. Maybe 399 00:38:30.510 --> 00:38:37.729 schlaukopf: I I think it should be a different between between the like. I even can kind of show you the screen for a second. 400 00:38:39.420 --> 00:38:45.630 Ivan Duarte: Yeah, do you mean this one? They the one for the look or the one for these check boxes? 401 00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:52.980 schlaukopf: Yeah, I think that there is 2. But it should seem in the code, one for this and one for the other, is not the same in in on the same code. 402 00:38:53.100 --> 00:38:53.950 schlaukopf: but I think. 403 00:38:54.010 --> 00:39:01.290 schlaukopf: for for the other makes sense. They valid. But, for example, here what you had a for, and it's part of the code it just 404 00:39:01.790 --> 00:39:03.790 schlaukopf: that these 405 00:39:04.720 --> 00:39:09.280 schlaukopf: great let me let me let me share us, and I will do this real quick show 406 00:39:09.940 --> 00:39:15.649 schlaukopf: you want. Can you stop sharing for for a second? I I i'm not. Sure. Yeah, Thank you. 407 00:39:19.190 --> 00:39:20.309 schlaukopf: You real quick. 408 00:39:20.340 --> 00:39:21.850 schlaukopf: Find out. 409 00:39:24.590 --> 00:39:25.410 schlaukopf: Okay. 410 00:39:25.830 --> 00:39:26.430 schlaukopf: Yeah. 411 00:39:27.390 --> 00:39:28.890 So here 412 00:39:29.420 --> 00:39:33.390 schlaukopf: is the one that we have those. 413 00:39:34.340 --> 00:39:40.099 schlaukopf: We saw, the the checkpoints on the table. Select. But here we are. It is not part of the 414 00:39:40.320 --> 00:39:46.720 schlaukopf: they ought to be you up there. Did you get this right? And then the other one? The 415 00:39:46.990 --> 00:39:48.279 schlaukopf: there was still one 416 00:39:48.530 --> 00:39:57.040 schlaukopf: I share in the description. When you have non multiple select, I think it should be a different, a different wording for 417 00:39:57.290 --> 00:40:03.770 schlaukopf: what this particular one. I don't know why we are using the same one, but the team for this one should be defined 418 00:40:03.950 --> 00:40:05.129 schlaukopf: because 419 00:40:05.170 --> 00:40:06.510 schlaukopf: it's just. 420 00:40:06.860 --> 00:40:08.649 schlaukopf: I don't know. I I I think 421 00:40:08.910 --> 00:40:11.069 schlaukopf: we should be using a different one. 422 00:40:15.520 --> 00:40:18.030 Aaron McHale: So sorry you say that so 423 00:40:19.440 --> 00:40:21.479 Aaron McHale: to these error messages 424 00:40:21.630 --> 00:40:23.240 Aaron McHale: only Trigger, for 425 00:40:23.460 --> 00:40:25.279 Aaron McHale: so you know. 426 00:40:26.110 --> 00:40:36.720 Aaron McHale: select lists, or or you know, radio buttons or whatever, because so far our understanding is that this is like, seems to be some kind of generic error message. 427 00:40:38.840 --> 00:40:41.709 I' for for 428 00:40:41.770 --> 00:40:44.489 schlaukopf: check checking the message inside the 429 00:40:44.850 --> 00:40:51.149 schlaukopf: because it seems like, just for for the forms all related to 430 00:40:51.200 --> 00:40:51.759 so. 431 00:40:52.470 --> 00:40:53.109 schlaukopf: No. 432 00:40:53.450 --> 00:40:55.350 schlaukopf: it's done in tears. Yeah. 433 00:40:59.520 --> 00:41:02.320 Ralf Koller: but it looks like there's a third place. 434 00:41:02.530 --> 00:41:07.180 Ralf Koller: It's the menu. You. I want you there. It just also use the sentence the message. 435 00:41:08.600 --> 00:41:10.270 Ralf Koller: That's another context. Then 436 00:41:14.330 --> 00:41:15.520 Aaron McHale: okay 437 00:41:15.970 --> 00:41:24.789 schlaukopf: for for for the model I think the for for the men, I think, was just because they illegal well, but it's not the same message. It's not 438 00:41:26.890 --> 00:41:36.740 schlaukopf: because she, you know we're checking by the illegal war, the the the what she got into the menu and ui. But the message is slightly different. 439 00:41:39.360 --> 00:41:40.080 schlaukopf: What? 440 00:41:44.140 --> 00:41:46.950 schlaukopf: No, it's absolutely the same. 441 00:41:50.590 --> 00:42:00.760 Aaron McHale: Okay. So we get I'm looking at the patch. So we get. If it's, if it's a field, just check boxes or table, select or something. We get 442 00:42:01.790 --> 00:42:04.859 Aaron McHale: one type of message if it's 443 00:42:05.040 --> 00:42:06.479 Aaron McHale: for 444 00:42:10.190 --> 00:42:12.049 Aaron McHale: if it's a field with a 445 00:42:12.540 --> 00:42:16.459 Aaron McHale: I guess a value, we get a different type of we can get a different kind of message. 446 00:42:22.410 --> 00:42:23.680 Benji Fisher: Yes. 447 00:42:24.510 --> 00:42:37.679 Benji Fisher: oh, sorry. Go ahead. So so maybe the answer is that that we should not be using the same message in all places, and and we need to send the issue back for for additional work. 448 00:42:38.090 --> 00:42:41.980 Benji Fisher: The issue Summary should describe 449 00:42:42.200 --> 00:42:46.100 Benji Fisher: what the various scenarios are, how how to get 450 00:42:46.350 --> 00:42:52.000 Benji Fisher: your message in various places, and we should consider different messages for each one separately. 451 00:42:53.710 --> 00:42:57.099 Aaron McHale: Yeah, that's where I was. Kind of going in. I think I was 452 00:42:57.660 --> 00:42:58.809 Aaron McHale: okay. Yeah. 453 00:42:59.520 --> 00:43:00.250 Aaron McHale: I would it. 454 00:43:01.120 --> 00:43:04.339 Aaron McHale: That's what I was thinking earlier. So I was thinking, Well, if 455 00:43:04.660 --> 00:43:09.009 Aaron McHale: you know, we it's hard to make a. It's hard to make it forward decision. If we don't know 456 00:43:09.380 --> 00:43:14.189 Aaron McHale: where you know, if we don't know exactly what these will be triggered, because, for, like, say a select list. 457 00:43:14.420 --> 00:43:27.710 Aaron McHale: We could have a much more specific message like if, for instance, if if a slight list doesn't allow multiple values that the users for try some time. I just like more than one value. We can be very descriptive about that message. 458 00:43:28.750 --> 00:43:29.580 Aaron McHale: So 459 00:43:29.650 --> 00:43:30.799 Aaron McHale: yeah, it's 460 00:43:36.620 --> 00:43:40.479 Benji Fisher: A and I I I also notice that on the 461 00:43:41.410 --> 00:43:47.199 Benji Fisher: on the logs page the particular field is highlighted. 462 00:43:47.280 --> 00:43:51.379 Benji Fisher: So in addition to the error message at the top, there's also a 463 00:43:52.040 --> 00:43:53.720 Benji Fisher: a form element level 464 00:43:56.330 --> 00:43:57.350 indication. 465 00:43:59.330 --> 00:44:02.640 Aaron McHale: Yeah, that I I don't know how this plays the the the Enlightenment 466 00:44:03.110 --> 00:44:03.919 Aaron McHale: Error. 467 00:44:04.220 --> 00:44:07.220 Aaron McHale: the in my farmers modules in court, but 468 00:44:07.840 --> 00:44:08.609 Aaron McHale: and 469 00:44:08.740 --> 00:44:11.439 Aaron McHale: giving an error message on 470 00:44:12.320 --> 00:44:18.280 Aaron McHale: not being clear about which feel it is like, if it if we we slight, if we have like the field, but 471 00:44:18.540 --> 00:44:21.149 Aaron McHale: in in the era mist itself. 472 00:44:21.530 --> 00:44:24.040 we don't actually save which field 473 00:44:24.270 --> 00:44:25.209 Aaron McHale: it is 474 00:44:29.260 --> 00:44:43.689 Simo Hellsten: another way to a another thing to we that would kind of help the person to understand, like combining what is written, and what is seeing on the form is that if there is no value selected 475 00:44:45.550 --> 00:44:46.940 Simo Hellsten: and getting that 476 00:44:47.020 --> 00:44:48.319 invalid. 477 00:44:49.540 --> 00:44:57.649 Simo Hellsten: what's that? A illegal choice when there is no, no, no, nothing chosen. So that's kind of a could also be something to 478 00:44:57.740 --> 00:44:58.819 Simo Hellsten: separate. 479 00:44:58.850 --> 00:45:06.789 Simo Hellsten: So we then it would kind of what you see is that you didn't choose anything, and then you then you get message. You chose something that is not allowed. 480 00:45:07.840 --> 00:45:08.529 so 481 00:45:09.740 --> 00:45:12.129 Simo Hellsten: separating like 482 00:45:12.530 --> 00:45:13.869 Simo Hellsten: when there is 483 00:45:14.420 --> 00:45:17.119 Simo Hellsten: nothing, nothing chosen. 484 00:45:19.670 --> 00:45:36.650 Simo Hellsten: That's a I I think we have a message that covers that I seem to remember. There, there's a message that you get. If the field is required that you provide value. It would be what? Well, we we saw that when we edited the URL to and types in the comment 485 00:45:36.690 --> 00:45:41.720 Simo Hellsten: in that log of page. So then we had a highlighted thread 486 00:45:42.250 --> 00:45:43.830 multiple select 487 00:45:44.240 --> 00:45:50.320 Simo Hellsten: with nothing chosen. And then we had the error message. So that's a there there the kind of the visual. 488 00:45:50.980 --> 00:45:52.780 Simo Hellsten: the feedback 489 00:45:53.160 --> 00:45:57.779 Simo Hellsten: doesn't match the situation. So that's what I I was saying. 490 00:45:58.930 --> 00:46:01.440 Aaron McHale: I mean, in in that case the user 491 00:46:02.070 --> 00:46:09.740 Aaron McHale: theoretically picked common as a value when the list didn't contain comment. But there is also a separate scenario where 492 00:46:09.760 --> 00:46:11.559 Aaron McHale: a field is required. 493 00:46:11.590 --> 00:46:12.930 Aaron McHale: and they did not 494 00:46:13.030 --> 00:46:14.779 Aaron McHale: provide a value. 495 00:46:15.180 --> 00:46:18.160 Aaron McHale: either through the URL or through. You know the 496 00:46:18.300 --> 00:46:22.009 Aaron McHale: the widget. I think in that case they get 497 00:46:22.550 --> 00:46:36.349 Aaron McHale: an era. It's just something like the field is so quiet. And I what I was wondering actually is in that case, does the error mess contain the name of the field? Because if it does, then in this case we should also put the field name in the error message. 498 00:46:39.350 --> 00:46:43.209 Ivan Duarte: Yeah, it. It's where that for the for the login here 499 00:46:43.440 --> 00:46:48.540 Ivan Duarte: e the the the message is showing that the element and the and the name. But 500 00:46:48.920 --> 00:46:52.959 Ivan Duarte: here, when the users see the the message, and 501 00:46:52.990 --> 00:47:01.400 Ivan Duarte: he's not showing that one, so maybe we can change the water, try to include the elements name, or at least they they invalid 502 00:47:01.590 --> 00:47:19.220 Ivan Duarte: sorry they they not allow it value. That is, in this case is comment. And yeah, in this case it's possible to to create a more descriptive error because we have those values in here. We have. You have the real element that is failing and things like that. So. 503 00:47:19.350 --> 00:47:25.810 Ivan Duarte: yeah, it's. It's true that it can be improved a lot. So let me try to do it again. 504 00:47:26.400 --> 00:47:27.669 Comment. 505 00:47:28.950 --> 00:47:29.979 Sorry 506 00:47:30.050 --> 00:47:30.990 I want. 507 00:47:33.820 --> 00:47:36.509 Ivan Duarte: Yeah. So, for example, in this case 508 00:47:37.200 --> 00:47:42.139 Ivan Duarte: it shows something like this: I will take it from the from the general page 509 00:47:42.730 --> 00:47:44.270 and legal choice. 510 00:47:49.460 --> 00:47:53.070 Ivan Duarte: So if we can change this one and we change to 511 00:47:54.780 --> 00:47:56.109 Ivan Duarte: this is. 512 00:48:03.960 --> 00:48:07.880 Benji Fisher: yeah. So I I would like to move on to another issue, and I I think we 513 00:48:07.950 --> 00:48:08.859 Benji Fisher: have 514 00:48:09.310 --> 00:48:13.609 Benji Fisher: enough discussion here to update the issue. We have several recommendations. 515 00:48:14.160 --> 00:48:17.109 Benji Fisher: Be more specific. Use the active voice. 516 00:48:18.830 --> 00:48:26.139 Benji Fisher: do we do. We have consensus. That contacting the site administrator is is not helpful. Make it a quick thumbs up or comes down 517 00:48:26.790 --> 00:48:27.769 Benji Fisher: on that. 518 00:48:29.400 --> 00:48:31.689 Benji Fisher: I see 3 thumbs up. I 519 00:48:31.930 --> 00:48:35.910 Benji Fisher: I agree i'll call that consensus for okay. 520 00:48:38.110 --> 00:48:45.879 Benji Fisher: So we we. We certainly approve of removing the second sentence certainly prove of changing the word legal 521 00:48:48.110 --> 00:48:51.410 Benji Fisher: like to have a better choice than invalid. 522 00:48:53.320 --> 00:48:55.190 Benji Fisher: We'd like to be more specific 523 00:48:55.750 --> 00:48:57.809 Benji Fisher: and 524 00:48:57.900 --> 00:49:01.899 Benji Fisher: prefer to use the active voice. I I think that's plenty to 525 00:49:02.150 --> 00:49:05.609 Benji Fisher: add to the comments and and let people work on it similar. 526 00:49:07.020 --> 00:49:18.850 Ivan Duarte: Okay. So yeah, I will. That sounds so common, then, today, to the issue with these proposals or W. What is the they they work for? In this case? Should I update the issue, or 527 00:49:19.020 --> 00:49:22.259 Ivan Duarte: and you, as a moderator, used to to do that, or 528 00:49:22.560 --> 00:49:24.950 Ivan Duarte: what is the next step. 529 00:49:25.030 --> 00:49:28.590 Benji Fisher: and and anyone can can update the issue. So so go ahead. 530 00:49:29.120 --> 00:49:38.439 Ivan Duarte: Okay. So yeah. And also I will propose something like this in this case, because we can have the the label, or at least the the value that is not allowed. 531 00:49:38.480 --> 00:49:41.770 Ivan Duarte: and the a element that in this case is to type. 532 00:49:41.890 --> 00:49:45.329 Ivan Duarte: So I would suggest something like this, for example, for this case. 533 00:49:47.860 --> 00:49:48.540 Great. 534 00:49:50.160 --> 00:49:51.000 Ivan Duarte: Okay? 535 00:49:51.400 --> 00:49:52.830 Benji Fisher: Oh, and 536 00:49:53.780 --> 00:49:55.850 Benji Fisher: you've on the 537 00:49:56.100 --> 00:49:57.720 Benji Fisher: pasting the 538 00:49:58.640 --> 00:50:00.910 Benji Fisher: the link again for for the 539 00:50:01.360 --> 00:50:05.240 Benji Fisher: issue for today's meeting. If If you could comment there. 540 00:50:05.450 --> 00:50:10.850 Benji Fisher: that will be the easiest way for me to make sure you get credit for. Join me today's meeting. 541 00:50:11.970 --> 00:50:13.270 Ivan Duarte: Okay, Thank you. 542 00:50:14.210 --> 00:50:19.910 Benji Fisher: So we do have almost 15 min left. 543 00:50:20.080 --> 00:50:20.959 Benji Fisher: Just 544 00:50:21.120 --> 00:50:23.839 Benji Fisher: anyone have an issue to suggest. If 545 00:50:24.090 --> 00:50:25.910 Benji Fisher: not, I have 546 00:50:27.120 --> 00:50:28.870 Benji Fisher: a few that I've looked at 547 00:50:30.410 --> 00:50:32.569 Benji Fisher: as you mentioned recently on Slack. 548 00:50:39.150 --> 00:50:40.810 Okay. 549 00:50:43.200 --> 00:50:47.410 Benji Fisher: See any other volunteers. So let me find the right window. 550 00:50:53.170 --> 00:50:53.879 Benji Fisher: No. 551 00:51:01.620 --> 00:51:04.550 Benji Fisher: So this is issue 3, 1, 5, 552 00:51:04.950 --> 00:51:07.339 Benji Fisher: 7, 304 553 00:51:08.090 --> 00:51:11.679 Benji Fisher: can't run tests. If password 554 00:51:11.760 --> 00:51:13.700 Benji Fisher: contains slash. 555 00:51:14.360 --> 00:51:16.989 Benji Fisher: which seems like a sort of technical 556 00:51:18.060 --> 00:51:20.359 Benji Fisher: issue, not a usability issue. 557 00:51:24.180 --> 00:51:25.219 Benji Fisher: But if I 558 00:51:27.930 --> 00:51:32.969 Benji Fisher: search for the work, usability on the page to see where the tag was added. 559 00:51:34.070 --> 00:51:35.100 Benji Fisher: Here we go. 560 00:51:40.770 --> 00:51:43.030 Benji Fisher: Yeah, increase the font size. 561 00:51:47.910 --> 00:51:48.490 Okay. 562 00:51:49.620 --> 00:51:56.000 Benji Fisher: it looks like a message. And and this this is sort of a similar question to what we've been discussing. 563 00:51:56.350 --> 00:52:03.169 Benji Fisher: It looks as though someone suggesting an error message seriously malformed connection, URL provided. 564 00:52:07.370 --> 00:52:11.549 Benji Fisher: and and let's just see if if the issue summary 565 00:52:12.530 --> 00:52:14.049 Benji Fisher: makes that clear. 566 00:52:15.710 --> 00:52:19.000 Benji Fisher: So if a my sequel password contains a slash. 567 00:52:20.120 --> 00:52:24.900 Benji Fisher: you can't run tests from the command line. Instead, you get an error like this 568 00:52:27.900 --> 00:52:34.119 Benji Fisher: here. Ultimately maps back to blah blah blah comparing these 2 strings 569 00:52:39.220 --> 00:52:41.009 Benji Fisher: kind of solution. 570 00:52:41.630 --> 00:52:44.489 Benji Fisher: maybe hard Jack or parse the string. 571 00:52:52.680 --> 00:52:53.740 Yeah. So 572 00:52:54.110 --> 00:52:57.090 Benji Fisher: it it is not clear from the issue description. 573 00:53:02.440 --> 00:53:05.900 Benji Fisher: Where where this string is going to show up. 574 00:53:18.560 --> 00:53:21.860 Benji Fisher: Let me search the page for the word now for. 575 00:53:23.040 --> 00:53:25.950 Benji Fisher: and see if that's explicitly mentioned elsewhere. 576 00:53:28.220 --> 00:53:31.280 Benji Fisher: Simo, you commented on this issue. 577 00:53:37.140 --> 00:53:40.510 Benji Fisher: so I I guess it comes from the Php documentation. 578 00:53:51.890 --> 00:53:52.720 Benji Fisher: So it 579 00:53:53.780 --> 00:54:03.750 Benji Fisher: So If if this is being suggested as an error message to show to the user I agree, it's not helpful. I I wish the issue. Were more 580 00:54:04.110 --> 00:54:05.839 Benji Fisher: clear about that. 581 00:54:06.020 --> 00:54:09.140 Benji Fisher: Simo. You also looked at this issue. 582 00:54:10.080 --> 00:54:12.900 Benji Fisher: You can, you said, comment on it. 583 00:54:13.150 --> 00:54:15.010 Simo Hellsten: Yeah. So 584 00:54:15.220 --> 00:54:17.719 Simo Hellsten: for me, that really looks like a 585 00:54:17.900 --> 00:54:22.909 Simo Hellsten: issue on technical implementation. Because, yeah, I can think of. So when a 586 00:54:23.160 --> 00:54:29.510 Simo Hellsten: looking at the strings with human eyes, it's a, we can distinguish that the part which parts are there. 587 00:54:29.650 --> 00:54:32.259 Simo Hellsten: and it could be it's just like a 588 00:54:32.550 --> 00:54:37.100 Simo Hellsten: It's not not as easy as using just a single function 589 00:54:37.650 --> 00:54:40.239 Simo Hellsten: to do that. So it's a more complicated 590 00:54:40.370 --> 00:54:42.269 Simo Hellsten: issue to fix technically. 591 00:54:42.760 --> 00:54:44.139 But 592 00:54:44.160 --> 00:54:47.090 Simo Hellsten: one of the things like I I don't like 593 00:54:47.790 --> 00:54:48.770 Simo Hellsten: using 594 00:54:48.860 --> 00:54:51.689 would select malformed or 595 00:54:52.470 --> 00:54:54.750 Simo Hellsten: kind of that. That's good. Because 596 00:54:55.470 --> 00:54:56.200 Simo Hellsten: if 597 00:54:56.570 --> 00:54:59.429 Simo Hellsten: Mysql standard allows 598 00:55:00.330 --> 00:55:04.040 that's kind of a slash, and it doesn't exclude 599 00:55:04.840 --> 00:55:07.799 Simo Hellsten: using that in the stream 600 00:55:07.880 --> 00:55:16.770 Simo Hellsten: like that's kind of connections strings. So then it's not malformed, so it's more like on support it. So drop on, drop out doesn't support 601 00:55:17.510 --> 00:55:22.790 Simo Hellsten: that, but it's not malformed if it's allowed by my Yes, cool standard. 602 00:55:23.850 --> 00:55:25.589 Simo Hellsten: So it's kind of a 603 00:55:28.380 --> 00:55:34.699 Simo Hellsten: so I think the minimum would be to like. It can be malformed if it doesn't pause. 604 00:55:34.750 --> 00:55:36.840 Simo Hellsten: or it can be unsupported 605 00:55:37.150 --> 00:55:38.889 Simo Hellsten: by the method 606 00:55:39.190 --> 00:55:41.019 Simo Hellsten: uses for processing. 607 00:55:42.400 --> 00:55:47.109 Benji Fisher: Yeah, I I I think the point, if I understand this issue correctly, is that 608 00:55:47.180 --> 00:55:50.639 Benji Fisher: the my sequel password is used as 609 00:55:50.730 --> 00:55:52.220 Benji Fisher: part of the string 610 00:55:52.520 --> 00:56:00.759 Benji Fisher: that is passed to Parse URL. So there there are 2 strings involved. One is the password, and one is the URL 611 00:56:00.960 --> 00:56:02.319 Benji Fisher: and 612 00:56:02.890 --> 00:56:06.609 Benji Fisher: the slash in the password is not supported. 613 00:56:07.050 --> 00:56:10.190 Benji Fisher: and the string we're passing to Parse URL 614 00:56:10.250 --> 00:56:11.779 Benji Fisher: is now formed. 615 00:56:12.710 --> 00:56:14.910 Benji Fisher: But go ahead. 616 00:56:15.650 --> 00:56:20.200 Aaron McHale: Yeah, maybe over simplified it. But to me. It sounds like 617 00:56:20.510 --> 00:56:23.669 Aaron McHale: the error message could be as simple as 618 00:56:24.490 --> 00:56:27.180 Aaron McHale: does not support 619 00:56:27.630 --> 00:56:30.909 Aaron McHale: slash whatever forward flashes in 620 00:56:31.640 --> 00:56:33.240 Aaron McHale: database. Passwords 621 00:56:33.970 --> 00:56:36.510 Aaron McHale: like that that is descriptive and 622 00:56:36.710 --> 00:56:39.029 Aaron McHale: very clear what the problem is. 623 00:56:40.310 --> 00:56:41.640 Aaron McHale: But 624 00:56:42.000 --> 00:57:00.269 Aaron McHale: I I oversimplify it is that to you know I don't know that to me seems like a like, even if there's other situations there basically might not at least be. We know this the case, you you. You could add a, an F statement to check the password, and and that specific error message. If 625 00:57:00.390 --> 00:57:01.720 Aaron McHale: in that situation 626 00:57:02.060 --> 00:57:06.740 Benji Fisher: right, we got a thumbs up from route there. I I also wonder if 627 00:57:06.830 --> 00:57:09.390 Benji Fisher: it might be possible to 628 00:57:09.850 --> 00:57:14.530 Benji Fisher: change the string. You pass to parse, URL, and just make the problem go away. 629 00:57:15.420 --> 00:57:19.939 Benji Fisher: you know, but find a way that that we can handle it. Ralph. Go ahead. 630 00:57:20.410 --> 00:57:21.399 Just 631 00:57:21.510 --> 00:57:25.379 Ralf Koller: a one. Follow-up question in regards to what Aaron suggested. 632 00:57:25.590 --> 00:57:28.319 Ralf Koller: Is it possible to trigger that error message 633 00:57:30.740 --> 00:57:33.510 Ralf Koller: through another condition? Aside 634 00:57:33.820 --> 00:57:38.669 Ralf Koller: a back slash in in the inside the password? Or is it 635 00:57:39.320 --> 00:57:42.850 Ralf Koller: the only possibility that that ever turns up? 636 00:57:44.640 --> 00:57:48.480 Ralf Koller: Then, if it is the only possibility, then I would 637 00:57:48.860 --> 00:57:53.139 Ralf Koller: if we go with our own suggestion that was clear and also actionable. 638 00:57:53.850 --> 00:57:54.680 Simo Hellsten: Well. 639 00:57:55.120 --> 00:57:58.750 Simo Hellsten: what I check to what past URL does, I think 640 00:57:59.950 --> 00:58:03.469 Simo Hellsten: There, if if you add slashes somewhere else. 641 00:58:04.370 --> 00:58:06.809 Simo Hellsten: it would also break it 642 00:58:07.980 --> 00:58:08.770 Simo Hellsten: so 643 00:58:09.260 --> 00:58:22.670 Simo Hellsten: like I I don't know where that the URL comes from. But if somebody you do this a destination and makes a mistake there, and passes that kind of URL that does have actually a few extra slashes like my SQL. 644 00:58:22.890 --> 00:58:24.640 Simo Hellsten: So Colin 645 00:58:24.750 --> 00:58:31.160 Simo Hellsten: Slash slash my user or something like that. So it it might be that it might be 646 00:58:31.240 --> 00:58:35.290 Simo Hellsten: like, actually malformed. And not only unsupported. 647 00:58:38.070 --> 00:58:41.190 Aaron McHale: I guess, even like, even if there's other 648 00:58:41.740 --> 00:58:43.290 Aaron McHale: cases where 649 00:58:43.440 --> 00:58:46.300 Aaron McHale: you know the yeah, there's gonna be other cases where, like you. 650 00:58:46.320 --> 00:58:54.509 Aaron McHale: You couldn't database information, and and something goes wrong, right. But we have identified that this is a specific situation 651 00:58:54.560 --> 00:58:55.359 Aaron McHale: where 652 00:58:55.450 --> 00:59:06.390 Aaron McHale: an era could be through. So I I think we should be providing a specific error message that covers this scenario. I I. We know what the problem is. We should be providing 653 00:59:06.410 --> 00:59:10.459 Aaron McHale: as helpful as possible Information so. 654 00:59:10.600 --> 00:59:16.060 Aaron McHale: and, as I said, that could be as simple as we just check to make sure there's no forward slashes. 655 00:59:16.080 --> 00:59:24.160 Aaron McHale: you know, in the code, you know. If statement do something to check the you are, check the the URL, the credentials, or whatever. And then you 656 00:59:24.930 --> 00:59:28.760 through that through a very specific error message in that case. 657 00:59:39.220 --> 00:59:44.059 Simo Hellsten: so basically the error message, according to the code results from 658 00:59:44.430 --> 00:59:47.559 Simo Hellsten: group on not being able to pause a URL 659 00:59:48.340 --> 00:59:49.639 from the 660 00:59:50.070 --> 00:59:50.830 Simo Hellsten: up 661 00:59:51.080 --> 00:59:58.099 Simo Hellsten: like you. Not Not being able to pause the the submitted URL into URL components. 662 00:59:59.680 --> 01:00:00.609 Simo Hellsten: So 663 01:00:01.740 --> 01:00:03.080 Simo Hellsten: that's kind of a 664 01:00:05.560 --> 01:00:06.129 Simo Hellsten: Hmm. 665 01:00:06.820 --> 01:00:10.630 Simo Hellsten: But what I don't see where where, where that's it? 666 01:00:10.680 --> 01:00:16.689 Simo Hellsten: URL is generated for that create connection options for URL function. 667 01:00:18.310 --> 01:00:19.000 Simo Hellsten: so 668 01:00:20.270 --> 01:00:21.509 Simo Hellsten: I think we should 669 01:00:21.540 --> 01:00:22.220 Simo Hellsten: got it. 670 01:00:22.440 --> 01:00:23.129 Got it. 671 01:00:23.170 --> 01:00:25.509 Simo Hellsten: Take a look where where it is used. 672 01:00:25.660 --> 01:00:27.709 Simo Hellsten: Oh, oh, who who calls that you 673 01:00:28.590 --> 01:00:31.069 Simo Hellsten: function that tries to cost. URL 674 01:00:34.900 --> 01:00:37.629 Aaron McHale: also is the issue. Title 675 01:00:37.870 --> 01:00:40.130 Aaron McHale: specifically says tests. But 676 01:00:40.660 --> 01:00:44.750 Aaron McHale: if i'm not, the second wouldn't this throw up in any situation. 677 01:00:50.760 --> 01:00:53.870 Aaron McHale: because it that they don't the database connection is 678 01:00:54.110 --> 01:00:55.830 Aaron McHale: happens across all 679 01:00:55.860 --> 01:00:58.960 areas of people. Right? So it's not specifically about tests. 680 01:00:59.890 --> 01:01:03.489 Aaron McHale: I like to Media is I again. I don't i'm not close to the issue 681 01:01:05.420 --> 01:01:10.080 Simo Hellsten: that it uses the same function also with 682 01:01:10.280 --> 01:01:15.459 Simo Hellsten: sqlite. So it's not only my SQL, so I I didn't actually even check 683 01:01:15.830 --> 01:01:20.380 Simo Hellsten: how it's like, what kind of possible they allow. 684 01:01:38.490 --> 01:01:42.819 Benji Fisher: And let's see, this looks like a link to the Api documentation. 685 01:01:44.390 --> 01:01:47.670 Benji Fisher: It might just be a documentation problem that this 686 01:01:48.260 --> 01:01:50.700 Benji Fisher: what when you call this function. 687 01:01:53.630 --> 01:01:56.960 Benji Fisher: you you should provide an an actual 688 01:01:57.660 --> 01:01:59.309 Benji Fisher: URL. 689 01:02:00.430 --> 01:02:03.929 Benji Fisher: We went to the class. Let's see if we can find 690 01:02:05.400 --> 01:02:09.179 Benji Fisher: create connection options from URL. 691 01:02:09.550 --> 01:02:10.399 This 692 01:02:16.110 --> 01:02:19.549 Benji Fisher: create connection options from the URL. Here we go. 693 01:02:27.090 --> 01:02:34.979 Benji Fisher: So maybe this documentation should just be a little more clear that when you pass the URL to this function. It has to be a valid URL, 694 01:02:35.130 --> 01:02:36.419 Benji Fisher: and then we can 695 01:02:36.950 --> 01:02:38.890 Benji Fisher: change the functions that 696 01:02:42.350 --> 01:02:50.440 Benji Fisher: that that call this to to fix the problem, but we are running up against the time limit. It's 1 min for the hour. 697 01:02:50.960 --> 01:02:54.170 Benji Fisher: Thank you all for coming 698 01:02:54.500 --> 01:02:59.310 Benji Fisher: again. Either comment on the issue, or give me your tuple dot or username 699 01:02:59.340 --> 01:03:01.020 Benji Fisher: in the slack channel. 700 01:03:02.610 --> 01:03:05.789 Benji Fisher: and we'll do it again next week. Any last words. 701 01:03:12.770 --> 01:03:13.640 Okay. 702 01:03:15.160 --> 01:03:16.459 Benji Fisher: So next week, then. 703 01:03:17.010 --> 01:03:17.700 Benji Fisher: bye. 704 01:03:18.020 --> 01:03:21.270 schlaukopf: bye, bye, bye, bye.