WEBVTT 86 00:08:23.970 --> 00:08:30.430 Benji Fisher: welcome. This is the Drupal usability meeting for April the 20 eighth, 2,000 and 23 I'm Benji Fisher. 87 00:08:30.440 --> 00:08:36.429 Benji Fisher: moderating and also present our Ralph Caller, who's sharing his screen, and we'll start off the discussion 88 00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:41.559 Benji Fisher: and Mike Gifford. So go ahead, Rob. 89 00:08:42.909 --> 00:08:52.170 Ralf Koller: Okay. The issue we are looking at right now is number 2 9 8 5 8 8 7. 90 00:08:52.620 --> 00:08:57.720 Ralf Koller: The topic is make course structure, descriptions more consistent. 91 00:09:00.200 --> 00:09:03.740 Ralf Koller: The issue is, as I already mentioned, at the beginning 92 00:09:03.810 --> 00:09:10.680 Ralf Koller: before the meeting already on the shortlist for a while, and it was product recently 93 00:09:10.690 --> 00:09:13.360 Ralf Koller: again. So 94 00:09:15.250 --> 00:09:19.650 Ralf Koller: the current state is basically visible in here. 95 00:09:19.700 --> 00:09:22.790 Ralf Koller: We have the current list of descriptions. 96 00:09:23.010 --> 00:09:27.320 Ralf Koller: and underneath is the proposed resolutions 97 00:09:28.760 --> 00:09:31.050 Ralf Koller: trying to make the 98 00:09:32.210 --> 00:09:36.490 Ralf Koller: descriptions a bit more consistent one. 99 00:09:38.140 --> 00:09:43.320 Ralf Koller: I've already made a small list of points that struck 100 00:09:43.810 --> 00:09:53.270 Ralf Koller: my I and I've noticed. and I could list those. And then we can 101 00:09:53.410 --> 00:09:58.740 Ralf Koller: discuss and also go through the points you notice, Sean, I, 102 00:09:59.420 --> 00:10:02.750 Ralf Koller: for the recording. Read the proposed resolution. 103 00:10:04.370 --> 00:10:09.450 Benji Fisher: I don't think so. But could you show us these in context, or are these 104 00:10:09.800 --> 00:10:11.730 Benji Fisher: links in the admin menu or something 105 00:10:12.370 --> 00:10:14.350 Ralf Koller: it's in here on the structure page 106 00:10:16.780 --> 00:10:19.220 Ralf Koller: it's referring to that one. Basically 107 00:10:21.240 --> 00:10:28.370 Benji Fisher: So so do these descriptions also show up as as hover, text or or title attributes. If you're looking at the admin menu. 108 00:10:32.180 --> 00:10:35.630 Benji Fisher: you know. Put put the Admin menu in in vertical 109 00:10:35.690 --> 00:10:40.560 Ralf Koller: what you mean. Okay. Oops. No. 110 00:10:45.160 --> 00:10:48.240 Benji Fisher: I don't see any link text, or are you seeing it? 111 00:10:49.050 --> 00:10:49.950 Ralf Koller: No. 112 00:10:51.300 --> 00:10:53.560 Ralf Koller: Oops seconds. 113 00:11:01.610 --> 00:11:02.310 Ralf Koller: Alright. 114 00:11:03.880 --> 00:11:07.950 Benji Fisher: It must be because you you probably have the admin toolbar module. 115 00:11:07.990 --> 00:11:10.090 Ralf Koller: Sure like uninstalled 116 00:11:10.270 --> 00:11:11.080 Ralf Koller: quickly. 117 00:11:12.180 --> 00:11:17.450 Benji Fisher: Don't bother. I I just checked on on my site, and I do see 118 00:11:17.670 --> 00:11:20.190 Benji Fisher: Link text. I think it's the same link. Text. 119 00:11:20.710 --> 00:11:21.780 Ralf Koller: Okay. 120 00:11:21.890 --> 00:11:23.750 Benji Fisher: that appears on the structure. Page. 121 00:11:25.320 --> 00:11:31.790 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): I've got to say that the first thing I looked at when I I saw that the list and the issue and the proposed changes. Is that? 122 00:11:31.920 --> 00:11:38.120 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): Why is it that the block layout doesn't have create when all the others do? Because it seemed that 123 00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:47.070 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): that that you can create blocks in the block layout right? It's not just you. If there's an you can create an empty block and put their content into that. Cannot. 124 00:11:47.300 --> 00:11:57.780 Ralf Koller: You can create a on the placement page you're able to go to block, play out placement. You're able to add a new content. So basically you're able to create. 125 00:11:58.250 --> 00:12:06.620 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): So you can create, and you can create. Yeah. So if you can create and and manage, then then why is that different than all the others? 126 00:12:12.530 --> 00:12:18.820 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): And then the one when you actually looked at the the structure of the pages that they were on. The the page itself was like 127 00:12:19.250 --> 00:12:26.910 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): that would look really boring if you had the exact same text. Create and manage for all of the different structural items. 128 00:12:27.140 --> 00:12:29.640 Ralf Koller: You know it's sort of redundant the first 129 00:12:30.080 --> 00:12:31.130 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): one. 130 00:12:31.140 --> 00:12:36.810 Ralf Koller: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7, 8 words. 131 00:12:37.860 --> 00:12:41.270 Ralf Koller: more or less the same across all the descriptions. 132 00:12:41.570 --> 00:12:48.970 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): Yeah. So you know, if you're doing this as a as a bolded list, you try and go off, and to bring those up, and have 133 00:12:50.290 --> 00:12:54.720 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): you try and separate that out, so that the structure is about creating your managing 134 00:12:55.280 --> 00:13:06.510 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): content. And then it's about block layout. You know what appears in your sidebar block types. you know, display settings for your block, for your content, blocks, content, type or comment types. You know 135 00:13:06.550 --> 00:13:10.520 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): how your comments are displayed and organized. You know something like that. 136 00:13:13.540 --> 00:13:14.590 Ralf Koller: It's a bit 137 00:13:15.160 --> 00:13:27.290 Ralf Koller: east due to the titles Aka blocked layout block types, common types, and so forth. But if you would only see the descriptions, then you run into the problem for screen readers. 138 00:13:27.520 --> 00:13:29.140 Ralf Koller: meaning the 139 00:13:29.230 --> 00:13:33.490 Ralf Koller: interesting parts come at the end, and before that is redundant text. 140 00:13:33.780 --> 00:13:35.310 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): Yeah, identical 141 00:13:35.460 --> 00:13:40.980 Ralf Koller: all the time. That is one of the points. I also noticed it. 142 00:13:45.230 --> 00:13:47.340 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): It certainly doesn't encourage you to read it. 143 00:13:52.580 --> 00:13:55.160 Ralf Koller: and also statistically. 144 00:13:57.520 --> 00:13:58.330 Ralf Koller: you have. 145 00:13:58.660 --> 00:14:00.420 Ralf Koller: and twice 146 00:14:00.940 --> 00:14:02.790 Ralf Koller: in sort of a sequence. 147 00:14:05.370 --> 00:14:06.720 Ralf Koller: But basically. 148 00:14:08.030 --> 00:14:09.730 Ralf Koller: what's 149 00:14:09.920 --> 00:14:20.310 Ralf Koller: So the sentence you create and manage Fields forms from settings and display settings. But you're only able to create fields, or you're unable to create form and display settings. 150 00:14:20.450 --> 00:14:28.010 Ralf Koller: It's also, in for example, in the context of content types. It's also one slightly pick. 151 00:14:31.550 --> 00:14:36.410 Ralf Koller: Of course the farms in this place Don't have anything to create. 152 00:14:36.530 --> 00:14:37.920 Ralf Koller: If you take a look. 153 00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:41.410 Ralf Koller: for example in here. 154 00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:46.210 Ralf Koller: quantum type and fields. Here you are to create a field. 155 00:14:46.670 --> 00:14:53.310 Ralf Koller: but there it just able to enable or just able and move the order around same for the managed display. 156 00:14:59.820 --> 00:15:01.170 Benji Fisher: Okay, so maybe 157 00:15:01.300 --> 00:15:06.230 Benji Fisher: now that we've seen it in context, we can go back to the issue and look at the proposed changes. 158 00:15:06.500 --> 00:15:07.130 Yup. 159 00:15:10.130 --> 00:15:11.980 Benji Fisher: Can you zoom in a little bit? 160 00:15:15.050 --> 00:15:15.620 That's what. 161 00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:17.690 Thank you. 162 00:15:21.530 --> 00:15:24.210 Benji Fisher: And and let's take them one at a time. 163 00:15:24.370 --> 00:15:25.960 Ralf Koller: Start with block layout 164 00:15:37.690 --> 00:15:44.570 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): one way to make it like at least visually more interesting or more clear, is to take the things that are different that are relevant. 165 00:15:44.720 --> 00:15:53.720 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): that are not just, create and manage, but to to yet to to take everything that's distinct to the the type of content or structure that you're modifying. 166 00:15:53.910 --> 00:16:04.680 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): and put that in bold, so like in the block layouts, you could bold what block content appears in each region of the theme. 167 00:16:05.450 --> 00:16:08.040 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): So with the book you can, you 168 00:16:08.130 --> 00:16:13.500 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): highlights book outlines and allowed content type settings for books. 169 00:16:14.410 --> 00:16:20.200 Benji Fisher: And and you're suggesting that just for this discussion, right or or are you suggesting that is the actual display? 170 00:16:21.160 --> 00:16:25.500 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): I think it could be good for the display. and that 171 00:16:36.280 --> 00:16:42.410 Benji Fisher: that's right. We're building web pages. We can make things both in metallic if we want to. 172 00:16:43.890 --> 00:16:48.950 Ralf Koller: Well, let's put. Let's look at basically the text editor and make it 173 00:16:50.470 --> 00:16:51.930 Ralf Koller: the size. Okay, that way. 174 00:16:53.240 --> 00:16:54.570 Benji Fisher: Yeah, that works. Well. 175 00:16:54.630 --> 00:16:55.350 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): yeah. 176 00:17:06.150 --> 00:17:07.890 Ralf Koller: okay, Block lay out. 177 00:17:08.700 --> 00:17:13.720 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): I mean. It's everything. After almost everything after sort of create and manage like you, just 178 00:17:14.190 --> 00:17:16.829 holding the other. Everything else. 179 00:17:19.800 --> 00:17:21.510 Ralf Koller: Yeah. But log out 180 00:17:22.290 --> 00:17:29.720 Ralf Koller: is the exception to that pattern. It's just manage what block content appears in each region, and that is also one detail 181 00:17:29.870 --> 00:17:32.220 Ralf Koller: in each region for each theme 182 00:17:32.970 --> 00:17:39.140 Ralf Koller: having each within 5 in a range of 5 words sounds also or reads 183 00:17:39.290 --> 00:17:40.190 Ralf Koller: a good hold. 184 00:17:42.800 --> 00:17:50.720 Benji Fisher: Okay. So I hope that we move block out out of the structure menu so that this doesn't come up 185 00:17:53.660 --> 00:18:00.650 Ralf Koller: good point. But at the moment, if you take a look at the issue, you've create benchy. 186 00:18:01.710 --> 00:18:05.710 Ralf Koller: There it reads currently: block layout. Use the link under appearance. 187 00:18:09.310 --> 00:18:11.880 Benji Fisher: Well, that that's sort of a stop gap measure. 188 00:18:12.140 --> 00:18:12.740 Okay. 189 00:18:13.710 --> 00:18:15.220 Benji Fisher: And 190 00:18:15.970 --> 00:18:17.950 Ralf Koller: it just it just means 191 00:18:18.040 --> 00:18:25.590 Ralf Koller: that way. It's impossible to move it out, but I agree it would be best to move it out. and would ease our lives. 192 00:18:27.770 --> 00:18:29.630 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): but it would confuse the users. 193 00:18:33.770 --> 00:18:34.840 Benji Fisher: I'm sorry what what 194 00:18:35.100 --> 00:18:40.450 Benji Fisher: what will confuse users moving the block layout out of the structure. 195 00:18:40.740 --> 00:18:42.540 Benji Fisher: We're going to do it, anyway. 196 00:18:42.700 --> 00:18:44.980 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): Okay, if I have my way. 197 00:18:45.650 --> 00:18:46.490 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): Okay. 198 00:18:47.240 --> 00:18:55.320 Benji Fisher: the the only question is how we minimize the disruption. But I I i'm sorry I I I am distracting us from the current discussion. 199 00:18:55.970 --> 00:19:02.250 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): Okay? Well, it's good that we don't have fixed, we don't necessarily have to. There's not necessarily a problem, then, that the block layout is different. 200 00:19:06.350 --> 00:19:08.420 Benji Fisher: because I will have my way sooner or later. 201 00:19:08.570 --> 00:19:12.570 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): That? That's that's what was it Carthage said in in Rome? 202 00:19:13.220 --> 00:19:14.240 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): No, I see 203 00:19:14.780 --> 00:19:17.140 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): I will not. Something until something is destroyed. 204 00:19:24.860 --> 00:19:31.480 Benji Fisher: Yeah. So if we're going to have create, manage on all of them. And can we just put that into the page, header or something? 205 00:19:34.630 --> 00:19:41.670 Benji Fisher: But then also consider that that these descriptions are are used as title attributes on links 206 00:19:41.690 --> 00:19:45.950 Benji Fisher: in the core administration Menu. 207 00:19:49.330 --> 00:19:52.210 Benji Fisher: So consistency is good, but repetition is bad. 208 00:19:52.700 --> 00:19:53.660 Ralf Koller: So what do we have? 209 00:20:04.310 --> 00:20:05.930 Ralf Koller: Would it make sense 210 00:20:06.740 --> 00:20:10.990 Ralf Koller: to add the information in regards of create and manage 211 00:20:11.090 --> 00:20:12.200 Ralf Koller: feels. 212 00:20:12.220 --> 00:20:15.790 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): not to the title, but maybe to a a health text 213 00:20:16.700 --> 00:20:21.630 Ralf Koller: up off the list of available options there. 214 00:20:23.930 --> 00:20:27.160 Benji Fisher: Yeah, that that's what I was suggesting. 215 00:20:27.210 --> 00:20:31.480 Ralf Koller: Okay, I've understood you meant in the title itself, to change something. Okay? 216 00:20:33.800 --> 00:20:38.380 Benji Fisher: Oh, and Aaron Mikhail has joined us. Aaron, we're discussing the 217 00:20:38.840 --> 00:20:43.380 Benji Fisher: text that appears on the structure page, and also as 218 00:20:43.410 --> 00:20:46.190 Benji Fisher: upper text or title attributes 219 00:20:46.370 --> 00:20:47.990 Benji Fisher: links in the Admin. 220 00:20:50.570 --> 00:20:57.860 Aaron McHale: Thank you. Yeah, I'm: i'm sorry. I'm running running late. So i'm actually outside at the moment Join you from my phone. But hopefully, you can hear me. Okay. 221 00:20:58.190 --> 00:20:59.630 Benji Fisher: Yes. 222 00:21:01.120 --> 00:21:01.960 Aaron McHale: perfect 223 00:21:24.820 --> 00:21:29.900 Aaron McHale: is, is the what's on your screen? Ralph. Is that the 224 00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:33.240 Aaron McHale: is that what this is what we're suggesting? 225 00:21:34.780 --> 00:21:43.080 Ralf Koller: Th: Those at current prescriptions on this is basically in the issue Summary. It's the current state 226 00:21:43.110 --> 00:21:48.830 Ralf Koller: proposed. Descriptions in this in is in the issue summary, that is, the proposal 227 00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:54.950 Ralf Koller: by the people who have worked on it and underneath. That's where we at at the moment. 228 00:21:55.700 --> 00:22:12.940 Aaron McHale: Yes, okay, yeah. I see the block late one, because I remember I earlier today. I proposed on the the issue to move lock there to to appearance, and also i'd given an additional suggestion for what we should call that of temporary link. I don't know, Benji, if you'd seen my 229 00:22:13.060 --> 00:22:15.900 Aaron McHale: as a suggestion for that yet. 230 00:22:16.190 --> 00:22:17.540 Benji Fisher: Yeah, I I saw that. 231 00:22:17.770 --> 00:22:29.930 Benji Fisher: But I try to say focus on on one issue at the time. Sure, I only I yeah, I mentioned it because it was it was on the on the screen there. So yeah, right? That that's my fault I already distracted. 232 00:22:54.010 --> 00:22:59.220 Ralf Koller: How about for the help takes something like on the following pages. You're able to create 233 00:23:01.880 --> 00:23:03.190 Ralf Koller: and 234 00:23:04.550 --> 00:23:05.680 Ralf Koller: manage 235 00:23:09.050 --> 00:23:10.090 Ralf Koller: something. 236 00:23:14.480 --> 00:23:15.230 Ralf Koller: of course. 237 00:23:17.860 --> 00:23:29.330 Ralf Koller: till the end. On this broken call. Menu taxonomy views. Don't have the manage fields, form and display settings 238 00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:30.980 Ralf Koller: pattern. 239 00:23:37.180 --> 00:23:39.840 Benji Fisher: and this sort of review sort of 240 00:23:40.070 --> 00:23:43.820 Benji Fisher: that that maybe we should be rearranging. 241 00:23:43.910 --> 00:23:46.880 Benji Fisher: The men use to make them more consistent. So maybe 242 00:23:49.160 --> 00:23:50.940 Benji Fisher: views and menus. 243 00:23:51.240 --> 00:23:55.640 Benji Fisher: for example, Don't belong on the same list as 244 00:23:55.860 --> 00:23:59.610 Benji Fisher: comment types. Contact forms content types. 245 00:24:00.280 --> 00:24:01.520 Benji Fisher: media types. 246 00:24:04.120 --> 00:24:05.690 Benji Fisher: But that's a larger question. 247 00:24:06.330 --> 00:24:06.940 Benji Fisher: Oh. 248 00:24:07.170 --> 00:24:13.300 Benji Fisher: what can we do with what's here? And and and also. you know, we we should start off by considering 249 00:24:13.320 --> 00:24:17.310 Benji Fisher: is the proposed text and improvement over the current text. 250 00:24:17.810 --> 00:24:20.480 Benji Fisher: because if it is, then maybe we should 251 00:24:20.770 --> 00:24:24.970 Benji Fisher: go ahead and and make the suggestion changes now 252 00:24:25.330 --> 00:24:28.040 Benji Fisher: and consider further changes later. 253 00:24:28.500 --> 00:24:29.920 Benji Fisher: Aaron: Go ahead. 254 00:24:31.620 --> 00:24:42.800 Aaron McHale: Thanks. Yeah. So I think it's really interesting a point about some. Well, first of all, I think we? Yeah, we should. We should not let not keep. Let the scope of this issue 255 00:24:43.080 --> 00:24:53.190 Aaron McHale: change too much. So I I agree with you there, and I think it's an interesting point to say. should there be a wider restructure of the of the 256 00:24:53.220 --> 00:25:05.960 Aaron McHale: of the list, maybe something similar to what what the configuration screen is like, for we have those different groupings because there is a couple of different groupings that stand out to me where you've got 257 00:25:06.320 --> 00:25:17.050 Aaron McHale: the you know content types. What types? Of course. Now you know common types of things like that, where what you're really doing is, you are 258 00:25:17.160 --> 00:25:30.260 Aaron McHale: managing the structure of your content. You know you're defining the fields. And and so there's really a strong emphasis on structured content, right? But then you've got other things where like views and menus Where? 259 00:25:30.450 --> 00:25:48.790 Aaron McHale: Yes, it's. There's an element of structure there. But you're really you're creating different representations. Well, maybe not so much menus, but certainly for views and and maybe the display modes and things you're creating and managing different representations of your content. So I think there's a couple of 260 00:25:48.790 --> 00:25:56.430 Aaron McHale: sort of key groupings that we could pull out there, and I don't know if that you know. Maybe that helps us with with writing some help text here. 261 00:25:56.490 --> 00:26:01.830 Aaron McHale: if that's what we're also doing. But but yeah, that's kind of where my thoughts are at the moment. 262 00:26:04.940 --> 00:26:09.530 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): I'm going to have to jump off soon. But I I just wanted to go and and say that that the 263 00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:19.040 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): the thing looking at this is that there's there's also a lot of redundant text like saying, aside from create and manage, which are repeated. There's also 264 00:26:19.170 --> 00:26:30.280 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): like book outlines allowed to create content types for books like that. You've got. What else we have have a form hierarchy, blah, blah, blah form topics. 265 00:26:30.340 --> 00:26:35.160 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): menus, and menu links like. Is there a way that we can 266 00:26:35.260 --> 00:26:46.790 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): reduce the repetition of words like especially when you've got the header menu, is it? Do we need to go off? And it's a way to to simplify this, we're not repeating the words, Menu form 267 00:26:46.860 --> 00:26:50.370 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): content fields as often as we are. 268 00:26:52.110 --> 00:26:57.880 Benji Fisher: You're specifically thinking that if we have a label in the and description, text or help text. 269 00:26:58.150 --> 00:27:02.910 Benji Fisher: can we avoid repeating the label text in the description test. 270 00:27:03.060 --> 00:27:03.900 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): Yes. 271 00:27:04.140 --> 00:27:09.950 Benji Fisher: and and then the other repetition that jumps out to me is Fields forms and display settings 272 00:27:10.140 --> 00:27:16.430 Benji Fisher: which would be addressed by Aaron's suggestion of making skates look more like configuration. Page 273 00:27:19.350 --> 00:27:22.470 Benji Fisher: those together. Then we wouldn't need all this repetition. 274 00:27:25.530 --> 00:27:33.070 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): I mean. Ultimately it comes down to what are we doing to help the user and is is the content that we've got right here? Does that actually help us? 275 00:27:33.320 --> 00:27:43.790 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): Does that actually help the user or would it be useful to to pull on other stuff that is, provides more useful? Are you more useful description for for the user to understand what what is in there. 276 00:27:54.310 --> 00:27:56.090 Ralf Koller: Basically 277 00:27:56.520 --> 00:27:58.840 Ralf Koller: Those proposed descriptions 278 00:28:00.440 --> 00:28:04.670 Ralf Koller: list more or less the functions available within 279 00:28:05.590 --> 00:28:07.900 Ralf Koller: each of the pages. 280 00:28:07.950 --> 00:28:10.690 Ralf Koller: but it might be too abstract. Wouldn't. 281 00:28:12.030 --> 00:28:14.420 Ralf Koller: It's like such. Maybe 282 00:28:16.690 --> 00:28:17.900 Ralf Koller: it should be 283 00:28:20.230 --> 00:28:24.380 Ralf Koller: more of an high level explanation. What basically 284 00:28:24.610 --> 00:28:28.030 Ralf Koller: common type means and entails instead of 285 00:28:28.120 --> 00:28:32.200 Ralf Koller: a list of functionality, manage form and display settings of commands. 286 00:28:38.200 --> 00:28:44.350 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): So yeah, looking at taxonomy, for example, is, you know, creating manage categories for content. Well. 287 00:28:44.550 --> 00:28:57.760 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): what does that mean? If you're if you're a non technical person. You don't want to tech. Don't know what a tax on me or folks on me, or any of those on these is. How would you? Why would you use a text on you? Use a tax on me to go off into 288 00:28:57.910 --> 00:29:10.540 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): help. find related, content to be able to to group content together in a way that that is, is. that that allows for for you to more easily find information. 289 00:29:13.310 --> 00:29:15.770 you know, providing more examples, perhaps. 290 00:29:18.290 --> 00:29:28.030 Ralf Koller: but in the with the example of taxonomy. There's also another point. The wording and the terms used within the description should be, should match 291 00:29:28.540 --> 00:29:35.190 Ralf Koller: the terminology used on the page, and, for example. categorization 292 00:29:35.720 --> 00:29:47.460 Ralf Koller: you can't find there instead. Maybe it is an ups more abstract trauma, but use for capillaries, for example, that is the term for, and vocabulary, for example, ends 293 00:29:49.110 --> 00:29:57.070 Ralf Koller: me as a user. If on one page I have a certain set of terms, and on the other page another set of terms 294 00:29:59.170 --> 00:30:00.370 Ralf Koller: it's confusing. 295 00:30:04.400 --> 00:30:23.090 Mike Gifford (CivicActions): I absolutely agree. We're all that. It's a very good point, I but i'm going to jump off on this and say, good luck. This is a real puzzle to try and figure out. So I I really appreciate you taking on the you all take it on the task to try and and yeah, clarify this. It's been a problem for many drupal releases. So so this is good to get it fixed. 296 00:30:23.710 --> 00:30:24.390 Thanks, Mike. 297 00:30:27.780 --> 00:30:32.830 Benji Fisher: and and when you have to leave soon to do. You have any comments you'd like to make before you jump 298 00:30:37.320 --> 00:30:39.260 Benji Fisher: You're still muted, if you are. 299 00:30:39.300 --> 00:30:46.520 Quynh Pham: Yes, I am. I'm still thinking about what myself. Yes, as a user we 300 00:30:46.930 --> 00:30:49.100 Quynh Pham: we'd like to have more details 301 00:30:49.780 --> 00:30:54.680 Quynh Pham: of Take taxonomy, for example. I I probably would 302 00:30:55.750 --> 00:31:02.370 Quynh Pham: say something like create, manage? Oh, oh. 303 00:31:04.670 --> 00:31:09.080 Quynh Pham: category No organize and catalyze the content. 304 00:31:09.900 --> 00:31:13.030 Quynh Pham: Something like that. A little bit more details. 305 00:31:15.110 --> 00:31:21.010 Benji Fisher: Yeah. So at at least in an attempt was made for that one to give sort of a 306 00:31:21.290 --> 00:31:25.480 Benji Fisher: more user-centric description of what it does. And you're suggesting improving on that 307 00:31:27.570 --> 00:31:32.150 Benji Fisher: which is sort of the opposite direction of where this issue is going. This is She was going to 308 00:31:32.670 --> 00:31:37.780 Benji Fisher: use exactly the same phrase for each, but just make the last word 309 00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:40.520 different to each other. 310 00:31:40.680 --> 00:31:42.040 Benji Fisher: Go ahead, Aaron. 311 00:31:46.080 --> 00:31:55.840 Aaron McHale: That thanks, Benji. It I I wonder I was. You know it was listening to. This is the Mike talking there, and as well, and I I wonder 312 00:31:57.580 --> 00:32:01.180 Aaron McHale: where where we if we think 313 00:32:01.790 --> 00:32:10.160 Aaron McHale: I guess this is. This is up to us. We can agree this right now if we wanted. Let's say we did want structure to. Ultimately 314 00:32:10.370 --> 00:32:13.240 Aaron McHale: group things like configuration does 315 00:32:15.540 --> 00:32:27.040 Aaron McHale: potentially. That gives us. That means we could start to think, okay. Do we need very repetitive descriptions for each individual item. 316 00:32:27.960 --> 00:32:34.200 Aaron McHale: Or do we just need a common piece of help text that could then be displayed 317 00:32:34.580 --> 00:32:40.310 Aaron McHale: under the grouping? For you know that would group like content fields. 318 00:32:41.310 --> 00:32:44.420 Aaron McHale: Oh, sorry, con contact comment blocks, you know. 319 00:32:44.630 --> 00:32:56.600 Aaron McHale: So I wonder if if we decide. That's the way to go. and we, you know we don't have to. But let's say we did potentially that could allow us to think. Okay, what is the ideal description takes 320 00:32:56.780 --> 00:33:05.210 Aaron McHale: for the future. And if we're okay with repeating that just now and and you know, we replicate that across all the individual ones. But knowing we're going to. 321 00:33:05.410 --> 00:33:12.820 Aaron McHale: you know, Change that the future, maybe that helps us in solving what? What should the description types be at the moment? 322 00:33:18.380 --> 00:33:20.330 Benji Fisher: That's a good point. So so 323 00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:27.020 Benji Fisher: it. Don't. Try to expand the scope of this issue to the 324 00:33:27.380 --> 00:33:37.200 Benji Fisher: ultimate solution, but keep the ultimate solution in mind while working on that session. 325 00:33:37.660 --> 00:33:41.750 Aaron McHale: You know something types, whether it's content, comments whatever 326 00:33:41.980 --> 00:33:49.340 Aaron McHale: we can. Then we now them. If we have that, we can say, okay, Well, you know we're we. It becomes easy to transfer that to 327 00:33:49.380 --> 00:33:52.130 Aaron McHale: help text in the future for that grouping. 328 00:33:54.810 --> 00:33:56.470 Ralf Koller: But one 329 00:33:56.730 --> 00:33:59.080 Ralf Koller: question in regards to the health text. 330 00:34:04.300 --> 00:34:15.400 Ralf Koller: Would you have an a dedicated head text for each category. because if you take a look at the conflict page at the moment, there isn't any help, text at all. 331 00:34:15.739 --> 00:34:26.500 Ralf Koller: and the pattern doesn't exist in that regard we there's only on other pages and a single help text for the whole page, not for 332 00:34:29.980 --> 00:34:40.810 Aaron McHale: I was thinking that you would have help text for a particular section. But I suppose that's a good point, because I don't know technically, if that's even possible. But the current 333 00:34:40.889 --> 00:34:43.860 Aaron McHale: set up that might require modifications to how 334 00:34:43.940 --> 00:34:53.690 Aaron McHale: how that works. But but again, I think we we, as Benji, often like, say we don't, necessarily need to worry about the implementation details here. If we agree that that is a good idea. 335 00:34:53.750 --> 00:34:57.590 Aaron McHale: then we could say we could make that work, you know. 336 00:34:58.000 --> 00:34:59.520 Ralf Koller: Yep. I agree. 337 00:35:02.420 --> 00:35:05.390 Ralf Koller: Just wanted to note that currently 338 00:35:07.110 --> 00:35:10.460 Ralf Koller: there isn't anywhere else in the interface, as far as I know. 339 00:35:10.740 --> 00:35:12.870 Ralf Koller: such a pattern. But yeah, it would be good. 340 00:35:13.000 --> 00:35:14.240 Aaron McHale: Right? Yeah. 341 00:35:27.640 --> 00:35:32.280 Benji Fisher: I have a feeling that we already have. and issue 342 00:35:32.850 --> 00:35:37.010 Benji Fisher: to make this structure page look more like the 343 00:35:37.340 --> 00:35:39.660 Benji Fisher: configuration page. But 344 00:35:39.960 --> 00:35:43.280 Benji Fisher: maybe what i'm thinking of is this issue. 345 00:35:45.500 --> 00:35:47.060 Benji Fisher: which is to create a 346 00:35:47.410 --> 00:35:48.760 Benji Fisher: content. 347 00:35:49.820 --> 00:35:53.080 Benji Fisher: I guess. Make the content page look more like structure. 348 00:36:02.030 --> 00:36:02.850 Yeah. 349 00:36:06.110 --> 00:36:08.670 Ralf Koller: So the 350 00:36:08.680 --> 00:36:09.530 go ahead 351 00:36:09.760 --> 00:36:13.720 Ralf Koller: issue numbers 2 8 6 2 8 5 9. 352 00:36:18.220 --> 00:36:20.620 Benji Fisher: So here we are saying, oh, that 353 00:36:20.970 --> 00:36:29.210 Benji Fisher: the structure page needs more organization, make it more like configuration. And this is that the content page 354 00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:30.700 Benji Fisher: needs to be 355 00:36:31.210 --> 00:36:36.190 Benji Fisher: sort of a container page, more more like structure rather than 356 00:36:36.840 --> 00:36:39.210 Benji Fisher: list of notes. It currently is 357 00:36:41.490 --> 00:36:44.150 Benji Fisher: lots of different ideas. 358 00:36:45.230 --> 00:36:47.060 Benji Fisher: and sometimes they can flick. 359 00:36:55.330 --> 00:37:01.020 Benji Fisher: Yeah. And and I guess about the time that Aaron joined we were trying to come up with help, text 360 00:37:01.510 --> 00:37:05.340 Benji Fisher: for the structure page, so that we could avoid all of this repetition. 361 00:37:05.720 --> 00:37:07.150 Benji Fisher: and 362 00:37:08.480 --> 00:37:17.710 Benji Fisher: I I guess it'll be easier to do that if we group the things that are really very similar. Everything that involves fields, forms, and display settings. 363 00:37:18.590 --> 00:37:25.520 Benji Fisher: if we can through those, i'll make it more like the configuration page that makes it easier to write the help text. 364 00:37:28.250 --> 00:37:34.190 Benji Fisher: So yeah, if the ultimate hex help help, text is going to include the field forms and display settings 365 00:37:34.740 --> 00:37:38.010 Benji Fisher: then for now, I guess it's okay 366 00:37:38.210 --> 00:37:42.290 to leave all that repetitive text in in the current descriptions. 367 00:37:44.880 --> 00:37:47.320 Ralf Koller: How many categories would you suggest? 368 00:37:48.420 --> 00:37:49.900 Ralf Koller: At least 2, 369 00:37:52.330 --> 00:37:53.760 Ralf Koller: all 3, maybe 370 00:37:54.320 --> 00:37:56.630 Benji Fisher: so. There's one group thing that's very clear. 371 00:37:56.970 --> 00:37:57.580 Ralf Koller: Yeah. 372 00:37:58.360 --> 00:38:00.670 Benji Fisher: So that includes 373 00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:09.070 Ralf Koller: content types 374 00:38:09.750 --> 00:38:11.470 Benji Fisher: on tax forms. 375 00:38:16.850 --> 00:38:19.370 Benji Fisher: media types and taxonomy. 376 00:38:30.490 --> 00:38:32.220 Benji Fisher: That's about half of what 377 00:38:32.510 --> 00:38:33.870 it's on this page. Right? 378 00:38:34.490 --> 00:38:35.100 Ralf Koller: Yeah. 379 00:38:37.700 --> 00:38:42.430 Ralf Koller: Is play modes. maybe even. No, no, that's different. 380 00:38:42.460 --> 00:38:44.050 Benji Fisher: Yeah, they don't have fields. 381 00:38:44.280 --> 00:38:45.870 Ralf Koller: Yeah. True. 382 00:38:46.650 --> 00:38:53.580 Aaron McHale: Yeah, it was quite a fine of moving display, more so configuration. Actually. So. Maybe there's another discussion there by where they belong. 383 00:39:02.110 --> 00:39:05.540 Ralf Koller: But would menus and use fit in the 384 00:39:06.540 --> 00:39:08.440 Ralf Koller: in one category together? 385 00:39:08.520 --> 00:39:10.500 Ralf Koller: Because to me 386 00:39:13.380 --> 00:39:14.850 Ralf Koller: they feel a bit different. 387 00:39:17.980 --> 00:39:19.730 Benji Fisher: Yeah, they are very different 388 00:39:38.380 --> 00:39:41.650 Benji Fisher: sort of display modes. 389 00:39:43.390 --> 00:39:44.500 Benji Fisher: Our 390 00:39:46.190 --> 00:39:47.690 Benji Fisher: kind of funny that you 391 00:39:48.360 --> 00:39:52.630 Benji Fisher: have a separate page for creating display 392 00:39:52.800 --> 00:39:54.500 Benji Fisher: used in 393 00:39:54.930 --> 00:39:56.050 Benji Fisher: the Big 5 394 00:39:57.060 --> 00:39:58.670 Benji Fisher: when when you're managing 395 00:39:58.780 --> 00:40:01.030 Benji Fisher: fields, forums, and display settings. 396 00:40:01.280 --> 00:40:05.680 Benji Fisher: the display modes give you options for the display 397 00:40:15.230 --> 00:40:17.530 some page under display modes. 398 00:40:19.780 --> 00:40:22.070 I think there's more options for you when there Isn't: there. 399 00:40:22.920 --> 00:40:25.310 Benji Fisher: Yeah, you can have display modes for. 400 00:40:31.330 --> 00:40:34.880 Aaron McHale: Yeah. So I guess in itself there's a category right there. Display modes 401 00:40:52.590 --> 00:40:53.430 Ralf Koller: that way. 402 00:41:05.380 --> 00:41:06.130 Benji Fisher: So 403 00:41:10.990 --> 00:41:12.020 Benji Fisher: frankly 404 00:41:13.540 --> 00:41:17.320 Benji Fisher: display Modes do not deserve to be this prominent. 405 00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:19.290 Benji Fisher: It is 406 00:41:21.520 --> 00:41:23.990 Benji Fisher: silly that when i'm 407 00:41:24.600 --> 00:41:26.170 Benji Fisher: configuring 408 00:41:26.780 --> 00:41:29.220 Benji Fisher: the displays for 409 00:41:30.010 --> 00:41:33.770 Benji Fisher: my media type for my for my content type. 410 00:41:37.130 --> 00:41:38.700 Benji Fisher: What? When i'm looking. 411 00:41:39.270 --> 00:41:41.060 I can actually route them. 412 00:41:41.660 --> 00:41:45.090 Benji Fisher: You go configure a content type or something. 413 00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:52.240 Benji Fisher: And then, just like 414 00:41:54.380 --> 00:41:55.760 Ralf Koller: I managed to stay. Okay. 415 00:41:57.260 --> 00:41:58.600 Benji Fisher: So here I have 416 00:41:58.710 --> 00:42:03.490 Benji Fisher: default Rss and Teaser and I go to the bottom of this page. 417 00:42:03.960 --> 00:42:04.900 Benji Fisher: I have 418 00:42:08.420 --> 00:42:11.470 Benji Fisher: the others that are currently not enabled. 419 00:42:14.410 --> 00:42:18.500 Benji Fisher: and then I have that link at the bottom manage humans. 420 00:42:19.570 --> 00:42:20.190 So 421 00:42:24.560 --> 00:42:32.010 Benji Fisher: you know that Link manage humans is sort of where it comes up when when you. 422 00:42:32.190 --> 00:42:36.330 Benji Fisher: when you need a new viewload. That's where you're going to be looking, and you will 423 00:42:36.500 --> 00:42:43.280 Benji Fisher: follow that link. I don't think you need display modes in the administration menu or on the structure page at all. 424 00:42:47.520 --> 00:42:48.740 Ralf Koller: The only 425 00:42:51.030 --> 00:42:58.660 Ralf Koller: nit pick I might have is for default. The field sets custom, display settings is collapsed, and 426 00:42:59.430 --> 00:43:04.440 Ralf Koller: for new users, finding that they not necessarily 427 00:43:05.110 --> 00:43:07.020 Ralf Koller: expand it. And then. 428 00:43:09.850 --> 00:43:10.690 Ralf Koller: okay 429 00:43:12.290 --> 00:43:18.810 Ralf Koller: overall. I agree that it's not really necessary. And but the reasoning why I've placed 430 00:43:19.240 --> 00:43:22.180 Ralf Koller: this play modes before is 431 00:43:22.940 --> 00:43:25.150 Ralf Koller: the creation auto meaning. 432 00:43:25.660 --> 00:43:26.250 Yeah. 433 00:43:27.400 --> 00:43:33.460 Ralf Koller: you set up your display modes first, and then you're able to act on those 434 00:43:33.490 --> 00:43:46.010 Ralf Koller: in that group of block types, comment types, and so forth. That was the reasoning it should should be that prominent is more, more more in regards of the honor of creation. 435 00:43:50.510 --> 00:43:53.160 Benji Fisher: Normally, people start with the 436 00:43:53.550 --> 00:44:01.560 Benji Fisher: standard profile, and they have this list display modes available to them. 437 00:44:01.830 --> 00:44:03.960 Benji Fisher: and I think most people don't. 438 00:44:04.060 --> 00:44:06.270 Benji Fisher: I need to create additional. 439 00:44:06.340 --> 00:44:09.000 Benji Fisher: It's not something that comes up all that off. 440 00:44:10.720 --> 00:44:13.610 Benji Fisher: I will also scroll back up to the top of the page 441 00:44:15.430 --> 00:44:18.870 Benji Fisher: where it says default. 442 00:44:24.360 --> 00:44:27.580 Benji Fisher: Maybe we should add another tab 443 00:44:28.860 --> 00:44:30.230 Benji Fisher: or or a link 444 00:44:30.680 --> 00:44:32.130 Benji Fisher: that would. 445 00:44:33.410 --> 00:44:36.930 Benji Fisher: you know, let us enable additional or create new. 446 00:44:37.570 --> 00:44:41.190 Benji Fisher: so like, maybe, that that last 447 00:44:41.450 --> 00:44:44.680 Benji Fisher: details elements at the bottom, you should instead be. 448 00:44:46.290 --> 00:44:49.000 Benji Fisher: then you will tap. Maybe that would make more discoverable. 449 00:44:50.310 --> 00:44:50.970 Ralf Koller: Yeah. 450 00:44:51.440 --> 00:44:54.200 Benji Fisher: Rss teaser and other 451 00:44:59.210 --> 00:45:05.870 Benji Fisher: all right. But I I am digressing very far from the original issue. and we've got 20 min left. 452 00:45:11.420 --> 00:45:12.570 So 453 00:45:21.300 --> 00:45:22.110 okay. 454 00:45:24.310 --> 00:45:31.020 Benji Fisher: So if if we are going to have some sort of reorganization at the page and grouping 455 00:45:32.160 --> 00:45:35.700 Benji Fisher: that will let us 456 00:45:36.620 --> 00:45:38.640 Benji Fisher: then, for now 457 00:45:39.190 --> 00:45:43.460 Benji Fisher: shall we just say, go ahead and and use this repetitive text? 458 00:45:46.090 --> 00:45:46.760 Yeah. 459 00:45:58.250 --> 00:46:00.480 Benji Fisher: no, he was. What is it? 460 00:46:00.840 --> 00:46:03.580 Benji Fisher: Yeah. No, that's what I just 461 00:46:03.710 --> 00:46:05.680 there is. There is a 462 00:46:05.820 --> 00:46:07.710 Benji Fisher: Oh, I I 463 00:46:16.420 --> 00:46:25.080 Benji Fisher: and Ralph, could you add some spacing to the current descriptions of top to make it easier to compare with those descriptionists. 464 00:46:25.820 --> 00:46:26.550 But 465 00:46:27.390 --> 00:46:29.020 Ralf Koller: okay, please. 466 00:46:34.140 --> 00:46:37.930 Ralf Koller: what I I haven't understood what you said in the beginning. Sorry. 467 00:46:38.570 --> 00:46:41.780 Benji Fisher: Oh, go to the current descriptions and 468 00:46:42.230 --> 00:46:43.840 Benji Fisher: add spaces. 469 00:46:43.880 --> 00:46:46.060 Benji Fisher: So after flock way of going 470 00:46:46.080 --> 00:46:50.640 Ralf Koller: in the current. or wait a second, I just 471 00:46:53.380 --> 00:46:55.890 Ralf Koller: edit format text 472 00:46:56.230 --> 00:46:57.210 Ralf Koller: facing 473 00:46:59.600 --> 00:47:00.430 Ralf Koller: that way 474 00:47:03.520 --> 00:47:04.470 Ralf Koller: or more. 475 00:47:04.860 --> 00:47:12.950 Benji Fisher: No, I wasn't thinking vertical space. I was thinking horizontal space after the call and put in that space and sort of things. Line up. 476 00:47:13.040 --> 00:47:16.280 Ralf Koller: Okay. 477 00:47:44.410 --> 00:47:45.010 Ralf Koller: Okay. 478 00:48:27.490 --> 00:48:30.860 Aaron McHale: there's an extra comma and 479 00:48:31.320 --> 00:48:37.200 Aaron McHale: con content types after fields comma form comments. Yeah. 480 00:48:38.380 --> 00:48:41.640 Ralf Koller: but there's the check. Should that be removed. 481 00:48:41.840 --> 00:48:42.660 Benji Fisher: No. 482 00:48:43.750 --> 00:48:47.480 Ralf Koller: I thought the other way around that those should be edits there 483 00:48:48.990 --> 00:48:50.550 Ralf Koller: there and there shouldn't. 484 00:48:50.640 --> 00:48:52.430 Ralf Koller: Yes, yes. 485 00:48:57.100 --> 00:49:03.360 Benji Fisher: that's what I call the Oxford comma, or the sequential com, or something like that. 486 00:49:03.860 --> 00:49:08.130 Ralf Koller: But I was uncertain because of the 2 ends, and therefore 487 00:49:09.670 --> 00:49:13.000 Ralf Koller: which comes if it's a real sequence or not. 488 00:49:14.910 --> 00:49:18.560 Benji Fisher: Fields, forms, and display settings, is is 489 00:49:27.470 --> 00:49:33.340 Aaron McHale: I as a software developer, I would drop the ands all together. But I realized that's not good English. 490 00:49:44.330 --> 00:49:51.440 Ralf Koller: So should we make small adjustments to the. to those proposed descriptions and 491 00:49:52.100 --> 00:49:54.210 Ralf Koller: create a follow up. After that 492 00:49:55.860 --> 00:50:00.020 Benji Fisher: I I am actually beginning to think that this is a step in the wrong direction. 493 00:50:01.920 --> 00:50:04.400 Benji Fisher: Ralph, as you often point out. 494 00:50:06.130 --> 00:50:07.810 Benji Fisher: putting all of this 495 00:50:08.060 --> 00:50:13.990 Benji Fisher: repetitive text at the beginning. That's the important stuff at the end. 496 00:50:14.020 --> 00:50:19.010 Benji Fisher: you know the description just really isn't, adding anything to the label. 497 00:50:19.930 --> 00:50:22.180 Aaron McHale: You're just getting it. This 498 00:50:22.450 --> 00:50:23.740 Benji Fisher: standard 499 00:50:23.930 --> 00:50:27.960 Benji Fisher: block of text create, and then field forms and display settings for. 500 00:50:28.800 --> 00:50:32.750 Benji Fisher: and then you're repeating the label. That is not a helpful description. 501 00:50:34.850 --> 00:50:38.300 Aaron McHale: and you you could argue that that the 4 in the list 502 00:50:38.490 --> 00:50:40.420 are also not necessary. 503 00:50:43.610 --> 00:50:45.350 Benji Fisher: I'm sorry the form and label 504 00:50:45.860 --> 00:50:54.230 Aaron McHale: sorry the the literature works for, and then like for content, for content from like that is to me feels unnecessary. 505 00:50:55.650 --> 00:50:57.510 Benji Fisher: Oh, the the end of it! 506 00:50:57.650 --> 00:50:58.500 Aaron McHale: Yes. 507 00:50:59.430 --> 00:51:05.610 Benji Fisher: and if you remove that 3 or 4 or 5 of these descriptions are identical. 508 00:51:05.840 --> 00:51:06.610 Aaron McHale: Yeah. 509 00:51:15.160 --> 00:51:21.940 Ralf Koller: And then there's also some sort of inconsistency with. For example, if you take a look at content types. There you have content 510 00:51:21.980 --> 00:51:30.320 Ralf Koller: in because of media types. We then have media types, and for comments, the same common types and comments, and 511 00:51:33.910 --> 00:51:35.050 Ralf Koller: it's a bit 512 00:51:36.260 --> 00:51:37.340 Ralf Koller: confusing. 513 00:51:44.340 --> 00:51:48.410 Ralf Koller: And also there's another problem with forums. 514 00:51:49.520 --> 00:51:56.840 Ralf Koller: The scope for the last part of the Forums description is a bit broader. The settings aren't just about the Forum topics, but the forums 515 00:51:56.940 --> 00:52:02.690 Ralf Koller: in general, for example, the number of topics per page, and the sort order you're able to set there. 516 00:52:08.940 --> 00:52:12.400 Aaron McHale: Is it? Make our lives easier or harder 517 00:52:12.410 --> 00:52:17.310 Aaron McHale: if forums and books are getting pulled out of core. 518 00:52:28.310 --> 00:52:29.480 Ralf Koller: Yeah, but that 519 00:52:31.420 --> 00:52:36.070 Ralf Koller: would happen only in to 11. So a few years. 520 00:52:36.750 --> 00:52:37.650 Yeah, true. 521 00:52:40.420 --> 00:52:42.690 Ralf Koller: And another detail 522 00:52:44.630 --> 00:52:45.640 Ralf Koller: as a 523 00:52:46.290 --> 00:52:54.730 Ralf Koller: unexperienced user If I read, for example, the the the description for use create a managed customized list of content. 524 00:52:58.060 --> 00:53:00.400 Ralf Koller: I'm not sure if I understand that 525 00:53:04.260 --> 00:53:12.180 Ralf Koller: on. And also if you take a look on the views page, just one of the options is a view. Your then you have also the option to 526 00:53:12.250 --> 00:53:16.320 Ralf Koller: display it in a grid, or in 527 00:53:16.600 --> 00:53:18.040 Ralf Koller: what else was it on? 528 00:53:18.980 --> 00:53:21.870 Ralf Koller: I don't know from the top of my head, but 529 00:53:24.220 --> 00:53:24.860 and 530 00:53:26.810 --> 00:53:31.910 Ralf Koller: as a table and format list, responsive grid, HTML list or grid 531 00:53:35.260 --> 00:53:36.320 Ralf Koller: that's just 532 00:53:37.490 --> 00:53:40.730 Ralf Koller: naming it. Customized, listed refers just to one. 533 00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:42.800 Ralf Koller: We 534 00:53:42.820 --> 00:53:47.030 Ralf Koller: apparent aspect of options a user has there. 535 00:53:49.280 --> 00:53:53.210 Benji Fisher: well manage is a very broad term. So 536 00:53:53.670 --> 00:53:55.730 Benji Fisher: you're formatting. The lists 537 00:53:56.650 --> 00:53:58.990 Benji Fisher: could reasonably be considered part of managing. 538 00:54:03.360 --> 00:54:04.710 Aaron McHale: I like 539 00:54:05.710 --> 00:54:10.730 Aaron McHale: a couple of words that could be used, for views are 540 00:54:11.620 --> 00:54:14.400 Aaron McHale: representations 541 00:54:14.890 --> 00:54:16.210 Aaron McHale: of content. 542 00:54:17.670 --> 00:54:19.840 Aaron McHale: So if you could do something like 543 00:54:22.080 --> 00:54:25.470 Aaron McHale: the word build as well, I think, works for you so something like 544 00:54:25.800 --> 00:54:30.890 Aaron McHale: build, or or maybe even the work, construct different representations 545 00:54:30.900 --> 00:54:31.490 of 546 00:54:32.070 --> 00:54:33.830 Aaron McHale: of content, or 547 00:54:48.210 --> 00:54:50.860 Ralf Koller: or just play a selection of content. 548 00:54:55.660 --> 00:55:01.020 Aaron McHale: maybe. But I think you can also create, like Jason Api view endpoint views, endpoints. 549 00:55:01.940 --> 00:55:02.740 Ralf Koller: Oh. 550 00:55:03.440 --> 00:55:06.080 Aaron McHale: I think I suspect 551 00:55:06.100 --> 00:55:16.650 Benji Fisher: I don't know. I I just have a weird feeling. You can not, not Jason Api, but aggress endpoints. Oh, rest end points. Yeah, okay, that's what I was thinking. 552 00:55:19.060 --> 00:55:20.400 Benji Fisher: Yeah, sort of 553 00:55:20.800 --> 00:55:24.930 Benji Fisher: J. Json Api is a a standard structure. 554 00:55:25.000 --> 00:55:27.910 Benji Fisher: And so you can't customize it the way you can, If you 555 00:55:28.370 --> 00:55:29.170 Aaron McHale: Yeah. 556 00:55:33.340 --> 00:55:36.210 Ralf Koller: in regards of the news description. 557 00:55:36.690 --> 00:55:43.540 Ralf Koller: would it make sense to add something like what it basically is a a visual query. Builder. 558 00:55:45.270 --> 00:55:45.920 Aaron McHale: Hmm. 559 00:55:52.280 --> 00:55:53.660 Benji Fisher: So 560 00:55:53.910 --> 00:55:57.460 Benji Fisher: who is the audience? And which term will make more sense to them? 561 00:56:01.230 --> 00:56:03.240 Benji Fisher: The audience's site holders. 562 00:56:06.590 --> 00:56:11.820 Benji Fisher: I want to tell site builders that we have a visual query, voter? Or do we want to tell them that we can 563 00:56:12.880 --> 00:56:14.680 create customized lists as well. 564 00:56:22.870 --> 00:56:24.420 Ralf Koller: Oh, combine both 565 00:56:27.990 --> 00:56:31.500 Benji Fisher: A visual query Builder. To create customized list of contents. 566 00:56:31.530 --> 00:56:32.900 Benji Fisher: Make everyone happy. 567 00:56:33.180 --> 00:56:42.430 Ralf Koller: but but that way it's more or less clear. You know the function behind it. and you would know the results. What you're able to create with it. 568 00:56:44.400 --> 00:56:46.970 Aaron McHale: Doesn't Doesn't make me happy. 569 00:56:47.810 --> 00:56:48.640 Benji Fisher: Why not? 570 00:56:49.060 --> 00:56:53.230 Ralf Koller: You said it makes everyone happy. 571 00:56:53.570 --> 00:56:59.110 Aaron McHale: They're just being difficult. Yes, I'd be as you right. I'm being very pedantic right. Now 572 00:57:02.080 --> 00:57:09.130 Benji Fisher: also keep in mind that if the book module is not enabled on a particular site. We won't have that item. 573 00:57:10.120 --> 00:57:14.580 Benji Fisher: and, on the other hand, contributed modules 574 00:57:14.670 --> 00:57:15.830 Benji Fisher: frequently 575 00:57:15.850 --> 00:57:17.860 Benji Fisher: add their own links to 576 00:57:18.150 --> 00:57:21.060 Benji Fisher: the structure. Menu. So 577 00:57:21.820 --> 00:57:28.720 Benji Fisher: i'm thinking that we should close this as it won't fix. and instead, what we should do 578 00:57:28.830 --> 00:57:30.780 Benji Fisher: is have just 579 00:57:30.950 --> 00:57:32.570 Benji Fisher: 2 sections 580 00:57:34.720 --> 00:57:36.440 Benji Fisher: on the structure page. 581 00:57:39.270 --> 00:57:44.080 Benji Fisher: and what one for entity types, although we probably wouldn't label it that way 582 00:57:46.100 --> 00:57:47.930 Benji Fisher: and the other for everything else. 583 00:57:58.020 --> 00:58:04.780 Benji Fisher: Given that we don't know what modules will be enabled, and what trip modules might add things to the page. 584 00:58:04.950 --> 00:58:06.120 I don't think we can 585 00:58:06.220 --> 00:58:06.950 Benji Fisher: do any more. 586 00:58:07.390 --> 00:58:11.180 Benji Fisher: but I I think that separating out the entity types from everything else 587 00:58:12.220 --> 00:58:14.270 Benji Fisher: would be an improvement in the 588 00:58:15.400 --> 00:58:16.230 I. 589 00:58:19.040 --> 00:58:19.960 Aaron McHale: True. 590 00:58:20.110 --> 00:58:20.790 Ralf Koller: yeah. 591 00:58:34.120 --> 00:58:36.440 Aaron McHale: could be something like 592 00:58:37.120 --> 00:58:42.050 Aaron McHale: words that come to mind would be like information, architecture. 593 00:58:42.250 --> 00:58:44.420 Aaron McHale: structured content. 594 00:58:47.820 --> 00:58:49.810 Aaron McHale: Oh, those are only 2. Okay. 595 00:58:55.850 --> 00:59:00.650 Benji Fisher: I never likes the term information architecture. It Basically, needs menu structure, right? 596 00:59:01.620 --> 00:59:02.760 Aaron McHale: It's. 597 00:59:03.330 --> 00:59:05.460 Benji Fisher: or it's often used to me that 598 00:59:06.790 --> 00:59:16.060 Aaron McHale: yeah, it if you like, stretch your content. If we were to compare the 2 structure contents a bit more represents of what you're doing there. like building 599 00:59:16.250 --> 00:59:20.400 Aaron McHale: building structure of your from your content, or 600 00:59:22.360 --> 00:59:27.040 Ralf Koller: because you're suggesting structured content as an alternative to 601 00:59:28.150 --> 00:59:39.790 Aaron McHale: yeah, I think that's more. at least for the people I I know when I work with that feels more of a understood time. 602 00:59:40.300 --> 00:59:43.850 Aaron McHale: And maybe also, if we were grouping like 603 00:59:46.490 --> 00:59:50.190 Aaron McHale: if we were group, if we're going to group menus and tax on me. 604 00:59:50.650 --> 00:59:55.600 Aaron McHale: You could group them by a term like hierarchies or something. 605 00:59:55.700 --> 01:00:00.090 Aaron McHale: I don't know if that's a good idea, but like that's one possible gripping. 606 01:00:04.030 --> 01:00:06.850 Aaron McHale: I kind of don't like it, though. 607 01:00:08.650 --> 01:00:10.440 Benji Fisher: Yeah, I I don't I I 608 01:00:11.010 --> 01:00:16.410 Benji Fisher: I really want to group all the entity together, and and I agree that structured content is a much better label 609 01:00:16.810 --> 01:00:17.930 it 610 01:00:18.440 --> 01:00:19.120 Aaron McHale: Hmm. 611 01:00:25.230 --> 01:00:27.870 Ralf Koller: And call the other category other 612 01:00:29.090 --> 01:00:30.910 Aaron McHale: dumping ground 613 01:00:34.340 --> 01:00:36.630 Aaron McHale: through all your structure here. 614 01:00:37.720 --> 01:00:43.920 Aaron McHale: your unstructured structure. Yes, can we just call one structure and one unstructure? 615 01:00:47.660 --> 01:00:53.150 Benji Fisher: So so how do you feel about this? I I think this issue isn't a work that 616 01:00:57.150 --> 01:01:08.700 Aaron McHale: I I am leading in that direction. I think if we're going to do something we should do it right. And we, the the the whole reorganization around blocks is proven that if we. 617 01:01:08.920 --> 01:01:13.670 Aaron McHale: if we for or if we put F, we can actually do something. So 618 01:01:15.040 --> 01:01:27.470 Aaron McHale: not that we don't accomplish things, but you know it's it's quite often. It feels like it's easy to propose an idea, and then it never happens. But if you put a coordinated effort into doing it, it's it. Things will happen, you know. 619 01:01:28.090 --> 01:01:28.690 Right? 620 01:01:28.730 --> 01:01:29.370 Ralf Koller: Yeah. 621 01:01:29.520 --> 01:01:32.440 Benji Fisher: And you know, looking at this issue. 622 01:01:32.580 --> 01:01:40.200 Benji Fisher: about half the comments here are from the box, saying, You know it's both go to this version. Let's bump into the next version. 623 01:01:42.840 --> 01:01:48.340 Benji Fisher: So it's. It's not as though this is an an active issue that has had a lot of work done that 624 01:01:52.230 --> 01:01:55.000 Benji Fisher: I think the post resolution is 625 01:01:55.510 --> 01:01:57.220 Benji Fisher: certainly more consistent. 626 01:01:58.530 --> 01:02:01.470 but but not more helpful 627 01:02:02.500 --> 01:02:03.720 Benji Fisher: and 628 01:02:07.150 --> 01:02:09.520 Benji Fisher: just. It ends up putting 629 01:02:11.510 --> 01:02:12.860 Benji Fisher: it, making the 630 01:02:13.950 --> 01:02:15.310 Benji Fisher: descriptions. 631 01:02:16.730 --> 01:02:21.410 Benji Fisher: or we're played, plus the label which. 632 01:02:24.530 --> 01:02:26.600 Ralf Koller: with that plus the label, is good. 633 01:02:26.750 --> 01:02:31.830 Benji Fisher: I fairly feel the strongest about this, so I guess I should leave the comments to that effect. 634 01:02:32.430 --> 01:02:33.170 Oh. 635 01:02:36.130 --> 01:02:42.980 Benji Fisher: should I immediately close it as well fixed? Shall I leave it open for a couple of weeks, and 636 01:02:43.780 --> 01:02:46.280 Benji Fisher: of people interested in it respond. 637 01:02:50.480 --> 01:02:56.200 Aaron McHale: Well, you, you said it's not been a very active issue, although it seems to keep popping up in slack. But 638 01:02:57.270 --> 01:03:01.020 Aaron McHale: if if we. if we closed it as one fix, but then 639 01:03:01.290 --> 01:03:09.580 Aaron McHale: pointed people to another issue. Talking about, you know, group things of the structure, page at least. Then there is a at at least, then we can. 640 01:03:09.700 --> 01:03:14.530 Aaron McHale: We're directing effort in the right direction rather than just leaving it. you know. 641 01:03:19.140 --> 01:03:23.620 Benji Fisher: Yeah, I think that's a good point. I I, 642 01:03:28.340 --> 01:03:35.850 Aaron McHale: and worse it's. It's probably worth just figuring out if we can, even if if the 643 01:03:36.290 --> 01:03:43.840 Aaron McHale: I don't know what they what it's actually called. But like the the the way that configurations presented with the grips, because presumably we'd be using that same 644 01:03:43.850 --> 01:03:48.390 Aaron McHale: just type of display, if it's possible to present 645 01:03:48.430 --> 01:03:50.570 Aaron McHale: the help text per group 646 01:03:52.180 --> 01:03:58.900 Aaron McHale: that would be good to. because that would get a sense of like how much effort would be involved. 647 01:04:02.280 --> 01:04:09.640 Aaron McHale: I am also really mindful, but it does mean we have to change if all of the Urls for 648 01:04:10.500 --> 01:04:12.410 Aaron McHale: everything under structure 649 01:04:13.720 --> 01:04:18.590 Aaron McHale: which scares me a little bit. But at least we have a process for doing it. 650 01:04:20.210 --> 01:04:27.490 Aaron McHale: I'm: I'm: I'm glad we did the block stuff. Because yeah, we've got a we know we've got a a passion that we can reuse for doing that. But there's just 651 01:04:28.490 --> 01:04:30.960 Aaron McHale: yeah, a lot of Urls there. 652 01:04:34.200 --> 01:04:37.420 Benji Fisher: We are running up against the hour. So thank you for 653 01:04:37.530 --> 01:04:43.140 Benji Fisher: driving. I will leave the comment on the issue. 654 01:04:43.350 --> 01:04:46.710 Benji Fisher: It probably won't close it as well. It's just yet. 655 01:04:46.760 --> 01:04:48.870 I'll give people a chance to reply. 656 01:04:51.230 --> 01:04:52.000 But 657 01:04:53.700 --> 01:04:54.930 Benji Fisher: any last comments. 658 01:04:58.400 --> 01:05:00.370 Benji Fisher: Okay. do it again next week. 659 01:05:01.930 --> 01:05:06.060 Ralf Koller: Thanks, Benji. Thanks for all thanks. 660 01:05:06.710 --> 01:05:07.550 Aaron McHale: You, too.