WEBVTT 50 00:10:39.850 --> 00:10:51.900 Benji Fisher: welcome. This is the triple usability meeting for June ninth, 2,023, and Benjy Fisher moderating and sharing my screen. and also present, if I can. When zoom window again. 51 00:10:52.110 --> 00:10:54.950 Benji Fisher: our Aaron Mikhail 52 00:10:56.130 --> 00:11:00.720 Benji Fisher: Emma, Harold, Ralph Kohler, Simo Helston. 53 00:11:01.000 --> 00:11:04.070 Benji Fisher: and Thomas. Thank you all for coming. 54 00:11:04.620 --> 00:11:11.609 Benji Fisher: and I've got my browser opened the issue for today's meeting for the sake of the recording. 55 00:11:11.710 --> 00:11:21.380 Benji Fisher: If your number is 336 or 446 and one thing that came up 56 00:11:22.310 --> 00:11:23.730 Benji Fisher: is 57 00:11:24.940 --> 00:11:33.670 Benji Fisher: current issue about reorganizing block items and the Admin menu. Let me just follow the link to the Meta issue. 58 00:11:34.450 --> 00:11:35.700 Benji Fisher: And then 59 00:11:36.800 --> 00:11:39.180 Benji Fisher: what we're talking about is the issue 60 00:11:39.430 --> 00:11:45.839 Benji Fisher: to move block layout from structure to appearance, which is issue 331, 61 00:11:45.970 --> 00:11:48.039 Benji Fisher: 8, 1, 1, 2, 62 00:11:48.590 --> 00:11:51.520 Benji Fisher: and 63 00:11:51.950 --> 00:11:54.309 Benji Fisher: and let me also 64 00:11:56.760 --> 00:11:58.670 Benji Fisher: share the link 65 00:12:02.140 --> 00:12:05.480 Benji Fisher: for my test site in the Zoom chat 66 00:12:06.400 --> 00:12:10.059 Benji Fisher: wants to log in. You can use admin admin 67 00:12:11.260 --> 00:12:15.160 Benji Fisher: and 68 00:12:15.670 --> 00:12:22.549 Benji Fisher: I'm actually running the 11 point X branch, which is basically 10.1 by next branch. 69 00:12:24.050 --> 00:12:33.240 Benji Fisher: But yay, we have moved We've already succeeded in in moving the 70 00:12:35.030 --> 00:12:46.470 Benji Fisher: custom block library. Now just blocks list under content where it belongs. We now have directly under the structure menu 71 00:12:46.570 --> 00:12:48.070 Benji Fisher: locked types. 72 00:12:49.300 --> 00:12:56.630 Benji Fisher: and this being triple, it took a long, long time to get that that done? 73 00:12:56.830 --> 00:13:04.069 Benji Fisher: Oh. what we wanted to do is take this remaining link block, lay out and move it under appearance. 74 00:13:05.230 --> 00:13:11.839 Benji Fisher: and the issue to do that was Rtbc. And is now marked as postponed. 75 00:13:12.170 --> 00:13:17.370 Benji Fisher: And that happened just a a day or 2 ago. 76 00:13:17.900 --> 00:13:18.830 Benji Fisher: And 77 00:13:19.030 --> 00:13:34.449 Benji Fisher: Christina to me, us, who who's the topic maintainer for usability, or what one of the talking maintainer for usability? I actually came over to my table at Drupalcon and apologized for that action before she did it. 78 00:13:34.890 --> 00:13:41.709 Benji Fisher: But Aaron expressed some concerns on Slack that what it's postponed on 79 00:13:42.270 --> 00:13:58.300 Benji Fisher: is this rather broad issue? Is this a Meta issue? 2, 7, 5, 5, 6, 1, 3 to restructure the admin interface. 80 00:13:58.540 --> 00:14:02.100 Benji Fisher: yeah, this. This is 81 00:14:02.560 --> 00:14:08.970 Benji Fisher: in the ideas issue. Queue. your project, 2 of core ideas. 82 00:14:09.480 --> 00:14:13.459 Benji Fisher: and Aaron is concerned that 83 00:14:14.030 --> 00:14:19.379 Benji Fisher: no, nothing should be postponed on this, because this, if you might drag on forever, or is that a 84 00:14:19.680 --> 00:14:26.830 Aaron McHale: they are summary, or do you want to add them to it? yeah, I think that's I think that's fair. I 85 00:14:27.460 --> 00:14:34.310 Aaron McHale: be fine with. Yeah, I would try to be quite diplomatic and in my assessment. But I I think that's accurate. 86 00:14:34.380 --> 00:14:40.189 Aaron McHale: yeah, it's just, you know, through this whole thing we've we've one of the things that's allowed us to 87 00:14:40.380 --> 00:15:00.140 Aaron McHale: in some ways do the impossible and and get as far as the fact. We've had really well, tightly scoped issues. and this and so to sporting the moving a layer to appearance on this issue feels like it. It could. There's a big risk they could drag on for much longer. 88 00:15:00.200 --> 00:15:03.200 Aaron McHale: because this is a much bigger scope. 89 00:15:03.250 --> 00:15:20.320 Aaron McHale: and I don't know how well defined this. This scope of this is the the thing that we we put up because, you know, in the in the moving what last appearance? So there's a few ideas that had been for proposing that issue. and the one that we 90 00:15:20.510 --> 00:15:23.550 Aaron McHale: initially when we set it on for the initial 91 00:15:23.760 --> 00:15:38.119 Aaron McHale: sort of move this just to move it as is a mirror. How configuration works, which is essentially what block lay it does right now, so under admin appearance. if you go to configure a theme, you have a tab for each team. 92 00:15:38.170 --> 00:15:48.620 Aaron McHale: What play? I was essentially doing the same thing sorry. Cs settings. Rather. you'll see. there's a T for each theme. 93 00:15:48.780 --> 00:15:56.019 Aaron McHale: well, there is essentially all in the same pattern minus global settings. So the idea for this specific issue is to just 94 00:15:56.080 --> 00:15:58.369 Aaron McHale: move block there under there. 95 00:15:58.410 --> 00:16:02.090 Aaron McHale: mimic the behavior as it does. And then 96 00:16:02.490 --> 00:16:09.939 Aaron McHale: our plan was. there's another Meta issue to look at, reorganizing a more broader reorganization of the appearance section. 97 00:16:10.110 --> 00:16:22.330 Aaron McHale: And so in that issue, we thought, Okay, we can, because we had some ideas around how we could completely restructure the appearance section to be a bit more like how content type or fields work, so that 98 00:16:22.350 --> 00:16:25.390 Aaron McHale: rather than being kind of split by 99 00:16:25.530 --> 00:16:31.190 Aaron McHale: function, I guess, as it is right now, it's it would be sort of grouped by steam. 100 00:16:31.290 --> 00:16:37.789 Aaron McHale: and in that theme you go and you you can see a tab for settings, and it's have for block there, etc. So 101 00:16:38.240 --> 00:16:51.130 Aaron McHale: yeah, that was kind of where we were heading. And obviously I I haven't been triple, con. So I I wasn't part of this discussion that some people here have. So that's where I think we could maybe have a discussion 102 00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:58.890 Aaron McHale: to date about this and see what? At the very least, if we can get some kind of you know a plot or resolution going forward? 103 00:17:00.190 --> 00:17:08.529 Benji Fisher: so so what I I could say is that this ideas issue or or this this Meta issue 104 00:17:08.730 --> 00:17:10.299 Benji Fisher: is actually 105 00:17:10.349 --> 00:17:22.940 Benji Fisher: actively being worked on. they are doing usability testing. There's going to be a a card sorting exercise available in about a week, I believe. 106 00:17:23.260 --> 00:17:35.200 Benji Fisher: to get some some broader user input on how the menu should be organized and 107 00:17:35.510 --> 00:17:48.499 Benji Fisher: and I and Christina herself. I've been told she didn't tell me this directly, but someone else told me that she's been. She's being sponsored for 6 months by Lullabot to work on this. 108 00:17:48.910 --> 00:18:01.099 Benji Fisher: So I think there's actually going to be a lot of movement, and it's not so much postponing the the the block layout link on that issue, but making it part of that issue. 109 00:18:01.760 --> 00:18:04.370 Benji Fisher: and 110 00:18:05.950 --> 00:18:08.769 Benji Fisher: I I I think that it. It is 111 00:18:08.840 --> 00:18:12.639 Benji Fisher: actually going to be fixed in time for 10.2 112 00:18:13.340 --> 00:18:15.229 Benji Fisher: within the next 6 months. 113 00:18:16.450 --> 00:18:17.730 Benji Fisher: Thomas, go ahead. 114 00:18:19.260 --> 00:18:22.820 Thomas: Thank you. I think that. 115 00:18:23.460 --> 00:18:28.609 Thomas: I'm on the fence. I agree with 116 00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:34.150 Thomas: Aaron's concerns, because while I'm hearing that Christina is working on it. 117 00:18:34.370 --> 00:18:41.860 Thomas: this is such a huge thing to change, to do that that Meta issue. 118 00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:47.230 Thomas: it feels very optimistic to think that it will be there in time for 11 119 00:18:47.960 --> 00:19:04.140 Thomas: and my concern would be that reality may insert itself, and it gets pushed off to 12 or later. I think. optimistically speaking, it does make sense to make the conversation part of more holistic approach. 120 00:19:04.230 --> 00:19:07.920 Thomas: but I feel pretty strongly that 121 00:19:08.530 --> 00:19:18.199 Thomas: and maybe I need to be being vocal in the context of the larger meta issue. but I 122 00:19:18.270 --> 00:19:20.950 Thomas: we have a problem with definitions. 123 00:19:20.970 --> 00:19:37.979 Thomas: and I don't know if card sorting and things like that really get at the underlying challenges of things like, what does structure mean? Like, it's structure really getting at data structure and how things are 124 00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:58.209 Thomas: are are built and like. What does the meet? What is the meeting and definition of appearance? And I worry that you access going to be taking an approach, the the, the, the exercises we're going to do in the large Meta issue of where people's comfort is, and we've got a lot of risks around 125 00:19:58.300 --> 00:20:15.199 Thomas: what the common I guess troopal island impression of language is versus what the broader definitions are like. Appearance is very clearly defined, and lay out as part of appearance from a kind of universal 126 00:20:15.720 --> 00:20:16.960 Thomas: perspective. 127 00:20:17.020 --> 00:20:43.829 Thomas: And so I'm just worried again. I think it's very easy to bite shed, because I'm doing it right now, right? I'm one person talking to himself. so I I think that. Your initial statement of tackling these things one at a time is how we've been successful in achieving a lot of positive change and taking this and shoving it into something that 128 00:20:44.040 --> 00:20:55.720 Thomas: is risky in my mind, no matter how well intentioned, and know how, no matter how well funded, is a significant risk towards getting this change in. And this is an important change from my perspective. 129 00:20:58.130 --> 00:21:10.180 Benji Fisher: and let me just see if I can find the screenshots there. There were suggestions that at 1.2 totally rearrange the the appearance menu. As you know. 130 00:21:10.260 --> 00:21:15.030 Aaron McHale: they're definitely there somewhere. Because I remember, we 131 00:21:16.140 --> 00:21:30.630 Aaron McHale: yeah, there's there's, in fact, it might be this, the one that it might be the first screenshot there, Benjy. It's just slightly hard to see, but I think the first one has like a button for block layer, potentially. But I I was definitely 132 00:21:30.850 --> 00:21:37.200 Aaron McHale: more So the one before that one actually. there's another screenshot just above it. 133 00:21:39.180 --> 00:21:41.459 Aaron McHale: I think that one has. 134 00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:46.960 Aaron McHale: Yeah, so that one has a button for block layout. So this was 135 00:21:47.990 --> 00:21:54.679 Aaron McHale: which we could still, you know, we could do that anyway, because we already have a setting spot in. But there is definitely another one that showed the 136 00:21:55.210 --> 00:22:07.429 Aaron McHale: how we might re on this. I think it might mean further down in the issue. Actually, if you were to keep scrolling a little bit more next. Yeah, the next one. So what we can see here is. 137 00:22:07.990 --> 00:22:20.680 Aaron McHale: that we're having. The tabs are organized, our group by theme so kind of like, how in the field you buy or in the content types you, you've select the content type you like the field, and you get tabs 138 00:22:20.950 --> 00:22:27.329 Aaron McHale: dedicated to that that content item, or that field. It's the same kind of approach here where 139 00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:41.589 Aaron McHale: you could see in the first screenshot there's settings for your mommy theme. There's also a layer tab which would take you to the block there, specific for umami and you can kind of see that in the second screenshot, and then the third screenshot, there is the 140 00:22:41.600 --> 00:22:57.640 Aaron McHale: top level appearance page where we have the theme tap which I think was called list before. we have an update tab and a global settings top. And the global settings right now is just one level down under settings, but the idea would be promoting it to the top level. 141 00:22:57.780 --> 00:23:01.159 Aaron McHale: top. Yeah, tops there. 142 00:23:02.870 --> 00:23:08.159 Aaron McHale: So that was the kind of next step. But there is the more, broader 143 00:23:08.360 --> 00:23:18.950 Aaron McHale: issue to kind of reorganize more holistically. Review the appearance section much like we done with blocks. But at a slightly higher level. 144 00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:22.020 Benji Fisher: No. So 145 00:23:23.240 --> 00:23:26.010 Benji Fisher: I I think that 146 00:23:27.410 --> 00:23:36.839 Benji Fisher: the the decision has been made. the our our C one for Jupal 10.1 was released. I think yesterday, maybe the day before 147 00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:39.750 Benji Fisher: and 148 00:23:41.050 --> 00:23:47.819 Benji Fisher: as far as drupal 10.1 is concerned. the block layout link is going to stay there. that's 149 00:23:48.510 --> 00:23:50.669 Benji Fisher: yeah. We're we're not going to change that. 150 00:23:50.850 --> 00:23:58.030 Benji Fisher: we can certainly. push to make it happen in 10.2 151 00:23:58.180 --> 00:24:03.460 Benji Fisher: again, although the issue is marked as postponed on the. 152 00:24:03.530 --> 00:24:05.780 Benji Fisher: on the that issue, the ideas issue. 153 00:24:05.850 --> 00:24:11.220 Benji Fisher: I think it will actually be done as part of that issue, and as part of 154 00:24:11.500 --> 00:24:14.140 Benji Fisher: a discussion of 155 00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:23.900 Benji Fisher: of exactly the ideas you've been talking about with whether appearance should be organized by them, or whether 156 00:24:24.010 --> 00:24:26.510 Benji Fisher: it team should be the second level 157 00:24:26.690 --> 00:24:28.700 Benji Fisher: of tabs. So 158 00:24:30.650 --> 00:24:36.090 Benji Fisher: I I I like to cut off discussion here. I'd like to try to 159 00:24:36.470 --> 00:24:41.569 Benji Fisher: find a time when Christina can join one of our weekly meetings. 160 00:24:42.250 --> 00:24:47.010 Benji Fisher: And that's a that she's not here today. 161 00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:51.639 Aaron McHale: But I suspect she's probably jetlighted or on an international flight or something. 162 00:24:52.360 --> 00:25:00.800 Benji Fisher: That's right, Josh. She she she was in the same room with me yesterday, and I had a 2 h flight. She had a longer flight to get home. 163 00:25:00.900 --> 00:25:13.850 Benji Fisher: so so let's Let's think in terms of 1110.2. let's participate in the discussion of how this should best be organized. 164 00:25:13.930 --> 00:25:20.489 Benji Fisher: And and let's get some input from Christina. And and figure out what the the next steps should be. 165 00:25:22.310 --> 00:25:27.469 Aaron McHale: Yeah, I think that's really fair and all the what I can say, you know, constructively. I can see there is a lot of 166 00:25:27.820 --> 00:25:32.290 Aaron McHale: discussion going on in slide. Can you add the new. I channel 167 00:25:32.370 --> 00:25:46.700 Aaron McHale: that sort of just over the last couple of days around this. And as you talked about the card sorting, exercising things, so I'm I am optimistic that we will get these things done. And I I, and we know that we need to do something about the toolbar like it cannot. 168 00:25:46.700 --> 00:26:08.070 Aaron McHale: We know that for a long time it can't stay in its current state, right? We we need to do something or that, anyway. So I you know, these things will all happen. It's just a case of We've already accepted that. You said that it's not going to have an intended one. We knew that already. but it's it's I suppose it's more a question of when you know, what order can we do things, and and how do we make sure that. 169 00:26:08.170 --> 00:26:18.399 Aaron McHale: you know, some issues don't become too big and too much. because there's there's always that risk of them. Never, you know. Things never get done if they should becomes too big. 170 00:26:24.980 --> 00:26:36.690 Benji Fisher: Okay, any other comments on this. for now I saw Thomas gave a thumbs up to the discussion of trying to have a meeting where Christina can make it? 171 00:26:40.790 --> 00:26:45.160 Benji Fisher: and are there 172 00:26:45.690 --> 00:26:51.429 Benji Fisher: other issues? We also get a thumbs up from Cmo. Are there other issues we should talk about today. 173 00:26:55.700 --> 00:27:03.949 Simo Hellsten: I was thinking, should we talk about those pro descriptions? There was a slight discussion about 174 00:27:06.950 --> 00:27:10.450 Benji Fisher: is that one of the issues listed here. 175 00:27:14.780 --> 00:27:17.230 Simo Hellsten: Let's see, I'll try to find that one. 176 00:27:49.820 --> 00:27:51.700 Ralf Koller: I've past the link in the chat. 177 00:27:52.310 --> 00:27:53.570 Simo Hellsten: Thank you. Okay. 178 00:28:03.380 --> 00:28:08.100 Benji Fisher: this is issue 2, 5, 6, 2, 8, 7, 179 00:28:09.440 --> 00:28:17.739 Benji Fisher: oh, from 2,008 to give roles a description value is this one you were thinking about? Sima? 180 00:28:18.300 --> 00:28:20.259 Simo Hellsten: yeah, this is the one 181 00:28:21.390 --> 00:28:23.999 Benji Fisher: So can you leave the discussion on this? 182 00:28:24.380 --> 00:28:25.540 Simo Hellsten: That yeah. 183 00:28:28.970 --> 00:28:35.610 Simo Hellsten: So it's kind of a in a way, it's a quite straightforward thing. 184 00:28:35.780 --> 00:28:41.639 Simo Hellsten: I don't have it. Have the touched touch install, but it's adding 185 00:28:42.250 --> 00:28:43.920 Simo Hellsten: descriptions 186 00:28:44.390 --> 00:28:46.829 Simo Hellsten: or different roles 187 00:28:47.610 --> 00:28:50.189 Simo Hellsten: It's kind of a following similar pattern 188 00:28:50.210 --> 00:28:52.350 Simo Hellsten: than having 189 00:28:52.750 --> 00:28:54.380 Simo Hellsten: descriptions for 190 00:28:58.180 --> 00:29:03.820 Simo Hellsten: or content types, or that's different kind of things. 191 00:29:04.290 --> 00:29:08.930 Simo Hellsten: So in a way, the concept is quite, quite clear. 192 00:29:08.990 --> 00:29:13.530 Simo Hellsten: It's been going on for a long time. And 193 00:29:15.670 --> 00:29:18.070 Simo Hellsten: and they test being tagged for 194 00:29:21.690 --> 00:29:33.789 Simo Hellsten: oh, on on fourth of yeah, on the on the fourth this month. Actually. you're right across structural that like remote, that needs you to your tag. 195 00:29:34.130 --> 00:29:36.109 Simo Hellsten: But I think here. 196 00:29:38.470 --> 00:29:41.469 Simo Hellsten: yeah, I think my my question here was that 197 00:29:42.240 --> 00:29:52.320 Simo Hellsten: what kind of a descriptions should we have for all. So because it shouldn't be too technical, and it shouldn't be. 198 00:29:52.560 --> 00:29:54.219 Simo Hellsten: yeah. So it's kind of a 199 00:29:55.300 --> 00:29:56.100 Simo Hellsten: what? 200 00:29:56.280 --> 00:30:00.950 Simo Hellsten: What kind of the default, disruptive descriptions to have for the roles. 201 00:30:01.750 --> 00:30:12.540 Simo Hellsten: But that needs to also. Military review has a tag has been removed from here. So I I wonder if it is something that we should discuss 202 00:30:16.550 --> 00:30:17.630 Benji Fisher: just a minute? 203 00:30:18.900 --> 00:30:20.270 Benji Fisher: I think I can 204 00:30:23.080 --> 00:30:26.620 Benji Fisher: by the patch pretty easily. 205 00:30:30.330 --> 00:30:31.470 Simo Hellsten: I think. 206 00:30:31.810 --> 00:30:35.710 Simo Hellsten: or something to comment of say. 207 00:30:37.050 --> 00:30:38.180 Benji Fisher: yeah, go ahead, Charl. 208 00:30:39.140 --> 00:30:47.739 Ralf Koller: just to details. I've already post it on slack in the conversation. 209 00:30:48.540 --> 00:30:57.369 Ralf Koller: At first I agree with Simo in regards of the description that that the Scriptures are very helpful at the moment 210 00:30:57.490 --> 00:30:58.560 Ralf Koller: with the 211 00:30:59.120 --> 00:31:02.609 Ralf Koller: strings that are provided. But I have 2 212 00:31:03.170 --> 00:31:07.820 Ralf Koller: points, one nit pick, and one more serious one 213 00:31:07.960 --> 00:31:25.850 Ralf Koller: in the context of the touch. one for one. It's if you could quickly scroll up again just for the screenshot. yeah on the top and the issue summary. Put down a bit more down, please, and for the after air you have 214 00:31:26.050 --> 00:31:29.780 Ralf Koller: on the after or edit roll page you have 215 00:31:29.840 --> 00:31:37.399 Ralf Koller: the label for the field description, and then the description for this role. The description for the field is sort of redundant. 216 00:31:37.780 --> 00:31:40.500 Ralf Koller: Could either be striked, or 217 00:31:41.980 --> 00:31:46.829 Ralf Koller: could tell where the 218 00:31:47.170 --> 00:31:49.220 Ralf Koller: description is actually shown. 219 00:31:49.470 --> 00:31:51.859 Ralf Koller: But the problem I 220 00:31:51.920 --> 00:31:59.420 Ralf Koller: you really have with the descriptions is again in the context of the rose settings 221 00:32:01.800 --> 00:32:09.570 Ralf Koller: if you could go back. Yeah. And if you have descriptions in. And, for example, let's say you have author and have 222 00:32:10.070 --> 00:32:11.130 Ralf Koller: some 223 00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:15.659 Ralf Koller: harmless description. 224 00:32:15.920 --> 00:32:19.029 Benji Fisher: I applied the patch. 225 00:32:19.380 --> 00:32:23.359 Benji Fisher: And I'm I'm wondering why I don't see the 226 00:32:24.750 --> 00:32:26.170 Benji Fisher: the new screen. 227 00:32:27.460 --> 00:32:29.800 Benji Fisher: I'm sorry the patch failed. 228 00:32:30.860 --> 00:32:35.259 Benji Fisher: That's why it's not showing up. Okay, okay, so we'll have to work with the screenshots. 229 00:32:38.160 --> 00:32:39.510 Benji Fisher: so 230 00:32:42.420 --> 00:32:43.670 Ralf Koller: and 231 00:32:44.920 --> 00:32:51.890 Ralf Koller: if you have, for example. the contented content editor role was a simple, harmless 232 00:32:52.170 --> 00:32:58.339 Ralf Koller: description for that role. And on the role setting page. 233 00:32:58.780 --> 00:33:01.539 Ralf Koller: there are 2 or 3 open issues. 234 00:33:01.960 --> 00:33:18.839 Ralf Koller: in that regard. At the moment you're still able to simply change the administrative administration role from administrator, the default to, let's say, for example, the content that content editor. If that happens by accident. 235 00:33:18.850 --> 00:33:24.800 Ralf Koller: there's a moment, no indication what the active role in that way 236 00:33:27.940 --> 00:33:31.440 Ralf Koller: with a description. So it's a bit common problematic. 237 00:33:33.430 --> 00:33:40.540 Ralf Koller: And yeah, and I agree with because I've suggested, for example, for the moment, as long as the other issues are not in 238 00:33:40.580 --> 00:33:51.139 Ralf Koller: to move the description for the administrator role to the role settings. Page. but yeah, as Aaron said, it's 239 00:33:51.180 --> 00:33:52.600 Ralf Koller: it's complexity. 240 00:33:52.680 --> 00:33:56.360 Ralf Koller: and it's also a bit out of place there. 241 00:33:57.410 --> 00:34:01.790 Ralf Koller: But it would be a I feel safe, because yeah, the issue 242 00:34:02.990 --> 00:34:06.829 Ralf Koller: I saw on and real life example, where this happens on a 243 00:34:06.970 --> 00:34:13.779 Ralf Koller: actual page, and the person responsible was unable to get into the page for 2 days 244 00:34:13.850 --> 00:34:18.030 Ralf Koller: and figuring out what the problem was. And that's serious. 245 00:34:20.770 --> 00:34:26.259 Benji Fisher: So sounds like you're talking about this related issue. 246 00:34:27.139 --> 00:34:34.170 Benji Fisher: which role is the administrator role on the admin people roles. This is issue 302, 247 00:34:34.270 --> 00:34:36.219 Benji Fisher: 928 248 00:34:37.400 --> 00:34:43.780 Ralf Koller: that is one of them, I suppose the but there are a few more related ones. 249 00:34:47.929 --> 00:34:50.439 Ralf Koller: Yeah, that in the in the. 250 00:34:50.880 --> 00:34:52.580 Ralf Koller: if you could go back 251 00:34:53.940 --> 00:35:02.089 Benji Fisher: they on the reference by this day, which role is the administrator role on the user edit pages one 252 00:35:03.120 --> 00:35:06.449 Ralf Koller: also. And there is a third one, I suppose. 253 00:35:09.490 --> 00:35:12.219 Benji Fisher: Okay, so we were talking earlier about 254 00:35:13.280 --> 00:35:19.440 Benji Fisher: how it's important to make progress to scope our issues. 255 00:35:20.510 --> 00:35:26.230 Benji Fisher: and these are certainly improvements that could be made. But it's 256 00:35:30.090 --> 00:35:38.130 Benji Fisher: you know, we we already have separate issues for them. why do you think that we should do more 257 00:35:38.550 --> 00:35:41.950 Benji Fisher: as part of this issue than what's already here? 258 00:35:47.250 --> 00:35:50.720 Ralf Koller: This coping is okay. But it just means 259 00:35:52.520 --> 00:35:55.940 Ralf Koller: without the one of at least one of the others in. 260 00:36:00.450 --> 00:36:03.730 Ralf Koller: I have a bad feeling about just this is just the thing. 261 00:36:04.310 --> 00:36:07.270 Benji Fisher: Join more recently by Eric. Hello! 262 00:36:09.210 --> 00:36:13.820 Benji Fisher: You have to leave your daily stand up at 1030. Is that in 2 min. 263 00:36:17.820 --> 00:36:22.889 Benji Fisher: and I think, Thomas, you wanted to reply to what Ralph was saying. 264 00:36:23.480 --> 00:36:25.840 Thomas: yes, thank you. 265 00:36:25.900 --> 00:36:42.930 Thomas: I agree with the importance of everything that Ralph said, but I also agree with you that I think that the description field. I think of it from a a data perspective. and I think of Thomas's perfect universe where, 266 00:36:42.980 --> 00:36:57.689 Thomas: you can seamlessly and easily move roles between sites and even into external data. Thing data warehouses, and having a description on the fields is 267 00:36:58.320 --> 00:37:04.159 Thomas: so lack of a better better term mission critical. and it has it. It doesn't 268 00:37:04.190 --> 00:37:17.219 Thomas: block any of the improvements that Ralph has identified as critical. but I don't think that there's a dependency. I think that we could move forward with this issue and get those descriptions in 269 00:37:17.480 --> 00:37:27.410 Thomas: and and emphasize that we still need to get those other changes in to indicate, because it to me, that's a field 270 00:37:27.440 --> 00:37:35.459 Thomas: that it should also be available that allows us to identify which one of the roles is administrative like that. 271 00:37:35.660 --> 00:37:49.150 Thomas: That's something that that should be there from a data perspective. So but they they're not at cross purposes This description of a field is not the same thing as a flag on the field. That says, this is the administrative field. 272 00:37:49.630 --> 00:37:50.870 Thomas: That's my opinion. 273 00:37:56.990 --> 00:37:59.350 Simo Hellsten: Yeah, for me. Also, it's kind of a 274 00:38:00.330 --> 00:38:10.450 Simo Hellsten: it's this having this script. Current situation is that way. We don't have indicators for what is the administrator role 275 00:38:10.600 --> 00:38:14.249 Simo Hellsten: on in the list at all, and then 276 00:38:15.710 --> 00:38:25.639 Simo Hellsten: the with the available possibility to have descriptions. It's possible to at least manually 277 00:38:25.830 --> 00:38:32.200 Simo Hellsten: at that information, even if if it's if it has to be always updated manually. 278 00:38:32.660 --> 00:38:33.919 Simo Hellsten: So it's kind of up. 279 00:38:34.450 --> 00:38:39.959 Simo Hellsten: For if for my side with multiple uses, so it's it's it's possible to 280 00:38:40.090 --> 00:38:46.939 Simo Hellsten: use the description to give that information, whereas the current situation is that we don't have anything. 281 00:38:46.960 --> 00:38:49.400 Simo Hellsten: And of course, the out automatic 282 00:38:49.680 --> 00:38:53.700 Simo Hellsten: version of telling which which is the administration 283 00:38:53.890 --> 00:38:58.350 Simo Hellsten: administrator. All that that's something that we want to have. 284 00:38:59.460 --> 00:39:04.869 Simo Hellsten: But it's kind of a I don't see it. Also, it is this could be done first. 285 00:39:06.600 --> 00:39:08.990 Benji Fisher: yeah, 2, 2 more points. 286 00:39:10.140 --> 00:39:16.989 Benji Fisher: one, you know, considered the distinction between data model storing things in the database 287 00:39:17.150 --> 00:39:28.219 Benji Fisher: and presenting things. And we're all pretty familiar with this because we work with the content management system on this issue is about adding an extra field to the database. 288 00:39:29.160 --> 00:39:36.640 Benji Fisher: And and that's And the other issues are about displaying information that's already there. 289 00:39:37.620 --> 00:39:53.240 Benji Fisher: And you know, we always want to get the data model right before we make changes to the display, because changes this way can be made at any time. That's the first point. the second point. 290 00:39:53.460 --> 00:39:59.490 Benji Fisher: we may or may not have a way to do it in the admin ui 291 00:39:59.670 --> 00:40:06.869 Benji Fisher: But just by editing some yaml files and importing configuration, you can have more than one administrator role. 292 00:40:06.880 --> 00:40:12.959 Benji Fisher: I can't imagine why you would want to do that. but it's possible. 293 00:40:13.260 --> 00:40:14.470 Benji Fisher: So 294 00:40:14.490 --> 00:40:17.660 Benji Fisher: there, there might be more than one admin role 295 00:40:17.890 --> 00:40:25.079 Benji Fisher: and and we might want to have something like an extra column with just a check box for the Admin role. 296 00:40:25.350 --> 00:40:29.820 Benji Fisher: and and of course we can like shed how, how we're going to present it. 297 00:40:30.980 --> 00:40:36.320 Benji Fisher: So I I think we're we're developing a consensus that 298 00:40:36.780 --> 00:40:44.619 Benji Fisher: that these other things that Ralph brought up can be treated as follow up issues, and we already have follow up issues for several of them. 299 00:40:44.710 --> 00:40:46.950 Benji Fisher: Is there an exception, Ralph? Is there 300 00:40:48.410 --> 00:40:52.160 Benji Fisher: one of these things that really should be done at the same time? This issue? 301 00:40:59.450 --> 00:41:04.959 Ralf Koller: Umhm, not necessarily. it's okay. I just was just worried. And 302 00:41:06.900 --> 00:41:07.990 Ralf Koller: but it's okay. 303 00:41:13.770 --> 00:41:19.770 Benji Fisher: So I guess Roy Sultan already remove the needs usability or view tag. 304 00:41:20.570 --> 00:41:26.030 Benji Fisher: it is still labeled needs work. 305 00:41:26.530 --> 00:41:31.749 Benji Fisher: When I tried it. The patch didn't apply 306 00:41:31.790 --> 00:41:34.270 Benji Fisher: to current branch. 307 00:41:37.360 --> 00:41:42.550 Benji Fisher: so comment 76 308 00:41:44.840 --> 00:41:46.299 Benji Fisher: points out that it got. 309 00:41:47.220 --> 00:41:48.810 Benji Fisher: But up here. 310 00:42:00.880 --> 00:42:01.560 yeah. 311 00:42:01.910 --> 00:42:08.209 Benji Fisher: it looks like some some changes to the test fixtures or what 312 00:42:08.870 --> 00:42:11.620 Benji Fisher: it's holding it in the needs work. 313 00:42:12.330 --> 00:42:17.949 Simo Hellsten: yeah. But what? What? I was thinking that 314 00:42:18.220 --> 00:42:25.690 Simo Hellsten: should we look at the descriptions? Or should we think about the descriptions for the roles, or is that something? 315 00:42:25.730 --> 00:42:33.240 Simo Hellsten: So it is that like somebody else's responsibility? Because, I think, if the technical things 316 00:42:33.460 --> 00:42:38.749 Simo Hellsten: get searched out, I think we should have, but at that by that time we should have a 317 00:42:38.800 --> 00:42:43.149 Simo Hellsten: should be able to have kind of a decent descriptions for that 318 00:42:43.940 --> 00:42:46.420 Simo Hellsten: standard 319 00:42:46.730 --> 00:42:48.949 Simo Hellsten: installation profile roles. 320 00:42:49.600 --> 00:42:59.849 Simo Hellsten: because I think the current current patch has a for administration user kind of a. 321 00:43:00.700 --> 00:43:03.479 Simo Hellsten: That this role is is given to admin. 322 00:43:05.570 --> 00:43:09.150 Simo Hellsten: so that that kind of a to have those descriptions. 323 00:43:09.750 --> 00:43:10.450 Simo Hellsten: Hmm. 324 00:43:10.600 --> 00:43:14.530 Simo Hellsten: kind of, so that they. or meaningful 325 00:43:22.760 --> 00:43:26.769 Simo Hellsten: or so or actually not not saying meaningful, but 326 00:43:27.250 --> 00:43:30.850 Simo Hellsten: having them help, so that they are helpful 327 00:43:31.110 --> 00:43:32.359 Simo Hellsten: for the user. 328 00:43:33.750 --> 00:43:39.270 Benji Fisher: Okay? So the current patch does include the descriptions for the 329 00:43:40.030 --> 00:43:43.420 Benji Fisher: roles in the standard profile. 330 00:43:44.620 --> 00:43:46.690 Benji Fisher: is that shown in the screenshots? 331 00:43:47.900 --> 00:43:56.570 Simo Hellsten: yeah, it is. So, I'm thinking, like, should we try to make some suggestions like for 332 00:43:58.690 --> 00:44:01.360 Simo Hellsten: administrator describing 333 00:44:02.080 --> 00:44:08.270 Simo Hellsten: what it means to be administrator, straight administrator for standard 334 00:44:08.710 --> 00:44:14.889 Simo Hellsten: So I I think one thing would be that administrative administrator 335 00:44:14.920 --> 00:44:19.880 Simo Hellsten: gets permissions by default 336 00:44:20.390 --> 00:44:21.890 Simo Hellsten: for new models. 337 00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:27.250 Simo Hellsten: And this kind of a. 338 00:44:27.480 --> 00:44:28.780 Simo Hellsten: it's not really 339 00:44:29.160 --> 00:44:39.789 Simo Hellsten: a correct. That's kind of an anonymous user role is given to users that are not looked in. It's not given to users, but it's kind of a assumed or kind of a. 340 00:44:40.030 --> 00:44:41.819 Simo Hellsten: It's kind of a little bit. 341 00:44:43.260 --> 00:44:46.690 Simo Hellsten: Those those are not. Those haven't been thought properly. 342 00:44:46.760 --> 00:44:49.370 Simo Hellsten: And I I'm thinking that should we try to 343 00:44:49.620 --> 00:44:52.060 Simo Hellsten: in this group, should we try to? 344 00:44:52.230 --> 00:44:53.910 Simo Hellsten: think about those? 345 00:44:55.580 --> 00:45:00.650 Benji Fisher: Okay, that seems like something that's in scope for the issue. Aaron, go ahead. 346 00:45:02.520 --> 00:45:06.060 Aaron McHale: Yeah. I think the kind of agree with 347 00:45:06.210 --> 00:45:07.370 Aaron McHale: the 348 00:45:08.390 --> 00:45:11.070 Aaron McHale: place, we could probably at the most saw you here is 349 00:45:11.120 --> 00:45:17.120 Aaron McHale: trying to come up with good descriptions for anonymous or the into the administrator, because, 350 00:45:17.400 --> 00:45:18.460 Aaron McHale: those 351 00:45:18.790 --> 00:45:24.470 Aaron McHale: are probably the ones that could be the particularly anonymous user. Like. 352 00:45:26.140 --> 00:45:35.030 Aaron McHale: how you how do you communicate that to somebody who's not familiar with triple and not familiar with what? That, what that means, or like even authenticated user. So 353 00:45:35.050 --> 00:45:38.859 Aaron McHale: where these descriptions can out value is really saying, Okay, what? 354 00:45:39.050 --> 00:45:46.880 Aaron McHale: What is, what does it mean to have that role? particularly for anonymous? Because it? I, a user doesn't. 355 00:45:47.020 --> 00:45:51.340 Aaron McHale: There's like a there's a yeah. No one who is is a funny one in that 356 00:45:51.400 --> 00:45:54.150 Aaron McHale: you can't assign a user, the anonymous rule. 357 00:45:54.580 --> 00:45:58.899 Aaron McHale: it's the role. Obviously, that's given to people who are 358 00:45:58.910 --> 00:46:01.510 Aaron McHale: visiting the site who aren't logged in. 359 00:46:02.280 --> 00:46:08.079 Aaron McHale: So if we can use the descriptions to describe to help help describe 360 00:46:08.780 --> 00:46:21.029 Aaron McHale: that which it's kind of what we can see is happened already, but perhaps we could maybe come up with that. There might be, you know, better descriptions that we could come up with, or maybe more concise, 361 00:46:21.700 --> 00:46:28.420 Aaron McHale: more more helpful. So yeah, that's probably where we could add the most value for sure. 362 00:46:30.320 --> 00:46:35.820 Benji Fisher: So let me see if I can open up maybe a Google Doc or something. 363 00:46:36.650 --> 00:46:41.650 Benji Fisher: my guys. 364 00:46:43.630 --> 00:46:44.710 Benji Fisher: there we go 365 00:46:54.420 --> 00:46:57.319 Benji Fisher: past the link into the 366 00:46:59.140 --> 00:47:00.470 Benji Fisher: Zoom, chat. 367 00:47:01.900 --> 00:47:05.790 Benji Fisher: and 368 00:47:05.970 --> 00:47:06.690 Benji Fisher: my role 369 00:47:11.050 --> 00:47:12.170 Benji Fisher: this up 370 00:47:13.670 --> 00:47:15.350 Benji Fisher: in my browser 371 00:47:16.490 --> 00:47:17.390 Benji Fisher: and 372 00:47:17.500 --> 00:47:18.780 and sharing 373 00:47:21.490 --> 00:47:23.209 Benji Fisher: aim for sharing 374 00:47:25.510 --> 00:47:26.260 Benji Fisher: it's 375 00:47:29.610 --> 00:47:30.720 Benji Fisher: and then 376 00:47:34.220 --> 00:47:36.119 Benji Fisher: anyone, the link. 377 00:47:37.630 --> 00:47:40.710 Benji Fisher: And and 378 00:47:54.120 --> 00:47:55.600 Benji Fisher: yeah. 379 00:48:04.310 --> 00:48:05.650 administrator. 380 00:48:13.400 --> 00:48:15.190 Benji Fisher: So one thing that 381 00:48:15.990 --> 00:48:18.859 Benji Fisher: bothers me a little and let me. 382 00:48:22.530 --> 00:48:27.940 Benji Fisher: yeah. One thing that that bothers me about this is that these are not complete sentences. 383 00:48:28.280 --> 00:48:37.389 Benji Fisher: Right there they have capital. They start with capital, and they end with the period. But they're not complete sentences. and I I wonder 384 00:48:37.530 --> 00:48:45.400 Benji Fisher: may. Maybe we should aim for 2 sentences. Yeah, for each one. So something like 385 00:48:45.640 --> 00:48:53.099 Benji Fisher: a user who is not logged in as this role. 386 00:48:55.150 --> 00:48:59.230 Benji Fisher: Often this role is given permission to view content. 387 00:49:02.410 --> 00:49:05.189 Benji Fisher: does that seem like a a good model. 388 00:49:11.950 --> 00:49:17.450 Simo Hellsten: I was thinking so. This I I'm something feel this might be too long descriptions 389 00:49:17.590 --> 00:49:23.330 Simo Hellsten: for default. But those thinking that this kind of would be one approach. 390 00:49:23.940 --> 00:49:26.679 Simo Hellsten: I I'm posting to that chat. 391 00:49:27.160 --> 00:49:30.640 Simo Hellsten: So this kind of a explaining 392 00:49:30.830 --> 00:49:32.639 Simo Hellsten: how would that permissions 393 00:49:34.300 --> 00:49:42.560 Simo Hellsten: like a through the permissions. But I I'm starting. I'm thinking that if it's too technical to talk about permissions 394 00:49:42.920 --> 00:49:43.880 Simo Hellsten: here. 395 00:49:49.430 --> 00:49:54.119 Benji Fisher: let me. I'm just pasting in what I see in the patch. 396 00:49:54.660 --> 00:49:57.309 Benji Fisher: So you 397 00:49:57.350 --> 00:49:59.390 Benji Fisher: go ahead, Thomas. 398 00:50:00.350 --> 00:50:07.960 Thomas: So the the pattern you gave conceptually make sense to me. But it felt 399 00:50:08.310 --> 00:50:09.340 Thomas: awkward. 400 00:50:10.120 --> 00:50:13.149 Thomas: So I wanna I guess work on the 401 00:50:13.920 --> 00:50:20.969 Thomas: language, but I mean it, I think pattern-wise. Start there and then it move on. 402 00:50:21.130 --> 00:50:39.329 Thomas: I think that There are 2 approaches we could go with, one would be to go through the issues where, for instance, some of the newer roles were added, and see if there are any solid descriptions of those roles, like what the justification was 403 00:50:39.390 --> 00:51:02.719 Thomas: for why we have author or content editor, or whatever the name, I guess, content, editor, whatever the the the latest roles are, we want to try and pull it from the discussions. So I guess, putting a dependency for where within the drupal community when these things were created historically trying to to pull that intent in 404 00:51:03.380 --> 00:51:16.700 Thomas: And I guess the the second approach might be to look at what the dominant mental models are like for everyone. So when people are coming to drupal 405 00:51:16.770 --> 00:51:36.849 Thomas: from anywhere, regardless of if they're a programmer or a person on the street. What does the word admin like? What? What do these? What is the actual definition of these terms, and and trying to come up or triangulate. Taking what those known definitions are versus the intention of the role like. 406 00:51:36.910 --> 00:51:39.670 Thomas: what it's context is. 407 00:51:40.970 --> 00:51:52.079 Benji Fisher: yeah. I'm a writes in the chat. It may be helpful but for the descriptions to include the functions each role has as an authenticated user. What can I do? And what can I not do? 408 00:51:53.730 --> 00:51:59.129 Emma Horrell: I'll just qualify that a bit, because, as from my experience, 409 00:52:00.710 --> 00:52:06.419 Emma Horrell: like the users, here are 2 people there. You've either been assigned a role. So you 410 00:52:06.590 --> 00:52:12.409 Emma Horrell: you might be using drupal to create content or edit content. And you might be confused as to why. 411 00:52:12.580 --> 00:52:15.449 Emma Horrell: you know, have access to something, or 412 00:52:16.030 --> 00:52:30.340 Emma Horrell: why something doesn't work, for example. But also it's from the perspective of like the person controlling that. So maybe, like what we would call like a lead publisher. So you want to be able to lock down certain 413 00:52:30.660 --> 00:52:32.780 Emma Horrell: parts of the site 414 00:52:32.920 --> 00:52:33.660 Emma Horrell: or 415 00:52:33.900 --> 00:52:38.250 Emma Horrell: Cms to different users. And you want to be able to. 416 00:52:38.730 --> 00:52:52.169 Emma Horrell: So I think, yeah, kind of going on from Thomas's Point. It would be useful to know historically where the roles came from, and then maybe list out typical functions that are associated with them, if that makes sense. 417 00:52:53.380 --> 00:53:04.409 Benji Fisher: So only one of these roles was added at all recently, and that's content. Either. anonymous, authenticated an administrator has been with us for a long time. go ahead, Aaron. 418 00:53:05.360 --> 00:53:10.960 Aaron McHale: Yeah, I think that. This is probably a blessing in the course. The thing to keep in mind is that 419 00:53:10.970 --> 00:53:18.109 Aaron McHale: we're we are just establishing what the defaults are in the standard profile here, because. 420 00:53:18.590 --> 00:53:28.119 Aaron McHale: you know you can go in and change these permit a change these descriptions just as you can go in and change the permissions that you assign to the usual. So 421 00:53:28.290 --> 00:53:35.700 Aaron McHale: because these provision descriptions are going to be specific. Well, you know, kind of specific to the standard rule. 422 00:53:36.000 --> 00:53:38.020 Aaron McHale: we can also think about. 423 00:53:38.120 --> 00:53:51.259 Aaron McHale: what? What do these roles? what can they do in the standard profile? Similarly, what could they do in a mommy? and that could be our start to we. But we also 424 00:53:52.280 --> 00:54:00.500 Aaron McHale: we set the standard here for how people are also going to describe this when they add their own rules or they make changes. 425 00:54:01.070 --> 00:54:02.760 Aaron McHale: so we can 426 00:54:03.140 --> 00:54:05.700 Aaron McHale: use that to think about 427 00:54:06.000 --> 00:54:15.620 Aaron McHale: as somebody setting up a site for the first time. What's the most helpful information to put here to describe these rules. And 428 00:54:16.000 --> 00:54:19.560 Aaron McHale: yeah, I I agree with Emma's quite as well, like the. 429 00:54:20.270 --> 00:54:33.729 Aaron McHale: I think the these are definitely areas where we can help people understand? particularly if you're if if you have access to, you know, if you're not the one cell set up site. But you 430 00:54:34.110 --> 00:54:41.280 Aaron McHale: may have access to edit some of these roles or create some roles. we can use this to help people also 431 00:54:41.370 --> 00:54:43.770 Aaron McHale: understand what a rule is doing 432 00:54:47.710 --> 00:54:59.169 Simo Hellsten: in the stock discussion. I was thinking, if we should look into those user, pass on us what we have some of those these roles we have in that 433 00:54:59.330 --> 00:55:04.250 Simo Hellsten: in the user per person or so that that what kind of motivations 434 00:55:04.500 --> 00:55:10.510 Simo Hellsten: an administrator user has or content editor, and then the that we have also some other 435 00:55:10.790 --> 00:55:12.420 Simo Hellsten: rules as well 436 00:55:13.200 --> 00:55:14.730 Simo Hellsten: defined. 437 00:55:15.210 --> 00:55:19.380 Benji Fisher: So let's try to get some text on the page 438 00:55:19.900 --> 00:55:31.189 Benji Fisher: to sort of focus the discussion. So I I suggested something for the anonymous role. What what I put in first is what's in the patch? which, aside from being 439 00:55:31.320 --> 00:55:36.240 Benji Fisher: in no incomplete sentences is also not very helpful. 440 00:55:36.270 --> 00:55:41.430 Benji Fisher: administrator, the the role given to admin users. That's not adding anything to the title. 441 00:55:41.730 --> 00:55:47.519 Benji Fisher: So here, here's my suggestion for anonymous, a user who is not logged in as this role. 442 00:55:47.680 --> 00:55:57.359 Benji Fisher: this role is typically given permission to view content and sometimes to add comments. so if you'd rather focus on the 443 00:55:59.640 --> 00:56:04.060 Benji Fisher: purpose of the role rather than the specific permissions assigned to it. 444 00:56:04.270 --> 00:56:08.519 Benji Fisher: What would you say there, instead of that second sentence. 445 00:56:08.560 --> 00:56:16.289 Benji Fisher: feel free to type in in the dock. I think. if you have the link, you have access, and they past the link into the chat. 446 00:56:33.700 --> 00:56:37.879 Aaron McHale: I'm just suggesting visitor. Because, like, Oh, well, maybe 447 00:56:38.440 --> 00:56:51.239 Aaron McHale: yeah, just I I think it might be helpful for anonymous, particularly because, like, there's a distinction between somebody who's a user means somebody who's lumped in, and a visitor being somebody who's 448 00:56:51.690 --> 00:56:54.890 Aaron McHale: well, it can mean somebody does not want in. So 449 00:56:54.940 --> 00:57:02.199 Aaron McHale: we have to be careful when we use the word user, because it has, it implies like they have an account. I think 450 00:57:03.120 --> 00:57:09.030 Benji Fisher: that's right. And and and of course there's the old Qu. That there are only 2 industries who refer to their customers as users. 451 00:57:14.740 --> 00:57:16.440 Benji Fisher: Go ahead, Thomas. 452 00:57:20.370 --> 00:57:25.549 Thomas: you're still muted sorry I was starting to type in the document. 453 00:57:25.990 --> 00:57:33.519 Thomas: so in my mind, I think of the definitions as something that describes the function 454 00:57:34.550 --> 00:57:37.559 Thomas: of a given term. So what is the function 455 00:57:37.580 --> 00:57:53.499 Thomas: of a human being is anonymous. What is the function of a human being who's authenticated, etc., etc.? And so, for instance, when I look at. All users have this role. I was trying to make a comment about it. 456 00:57:53.800 --> 00:57:54.790 Thomas: I 457 00:57:56.120 --> 00:58:01.080 Thomas: that is a level of access that everyone like. I don't think anonymous 458 00:58:01.560 --> 00:58:07.040 Thomas: has permissions that authenticate it doesn't have. So when we say 459 00:58:07.160 --> 00:58:11.269 Thomas: it, it isn't necessarily implied with the word users 460 00:58:11.780 --> 00:58:27.760 Thomas: it it it it really it? To me it's confusing, because I think of somebody who's visiting the website is still a user anonymous versus authenticated is just an umbrella or anonymous covers, the broadest range of human beings accessing the application. 461 00:58:28.010 --> 00:58:51.090 Thomas: and so I'm trying to think of each of these terms. And, more importantly, how do we establish the descriptive pattern that people should follow when they add additional roles. Because I think that in creating these 4 things we're also trying to help the community understand how to use the description. Field on roles. 462 00:58:51.100 --> 00:58:55.529 Thomas: in an effective pattern, because it would not be useful. 463 00:58:55.560 --> 00:59:18.789 Thomas: If these 4 things have these like pitch, perfect descriptions. And then after that, you have 10 different roles that say things like, I, a a user who touches photos, a user who changes blocks a user who does taxonomy like If we want to establish that. 464 00:59:19.360 --> 00:59:21.779 Thomas: I'm not sure how we can 465 00:59:22.190 --> 00:59:34.149 Thomas: train this pattern that we're trying to develop so that it's also used in future things like, so maybe more than just a description field, we should be thinking about how we can create that meta pattern 466 00:59:34.660 --> 00:59:39.119 Thomas: so that we're handing people away to create useful descriptions. 467 00:59:39.170 --> 00:59:47.470 Benji Fisher: That's good, not just good default, but also good examples for people to follow. Yes, a a along those lines. 468 00:59:48.590 --> 00:59:51.229 Benji Fisher: There is nothing to say about content. Editor 469 00:59:51.920 --> 00:59:59.239 Benji Fisher: And the other 3 roles the we've had for a long time are, are the only special ones. 470 00:59:59.480 --> 01:00:03.849 Benji Fisher: Anonymous is anyone who is not locked in, authenticated to anyone who is logged in 471 01:00:04.170 --> 01:00:08.370 Benji Fisher: Administrator has all permissions. 472 01:00:09.200 --> 01:00:12.749 Benji Fisher: and there is nothing 473 01:00:12.810 --> 01:00:23.959 Benji Fisher: at all similar you can say about content, editor, or any other role that you add. So it's kind of good that we have content out there so that we will have one example. 474 01:00:24.010 --> 01:00:28.810 Benji Fisher: of a free form role. This role is whatever you make it. 475 01:00:32.610 --> 01:00:42.430 Benji Fisher: But of course the the standard profile does assign specific permissions. and and we can use those as a starting point 476 01:00:44.980 --> 01:00:49.299 Benji Fisher: so honest, your hand is still raised. 477 01:00:49.760 --> 01:00:54.440 Benji Fisher: Again, I I encourage you to type into the Google Doc and come up with 478 01:00:54.630 --> 01:00:57.990 Benji Fisher: with some proposals for for concrete discussions. 479 01:01:08.870 --> 01:01:12.220 Aaron McHale: So how do we feel about visitor or user? 480 01:01:12.310 --> 01:01:15.500 Aaron McHale: Because it'd be at least good to make a decision about that. 481 01:01:16.440 --> 01:01:35.489 Aaron McHale: I'm happy to use visitor, especially for anonymous. Are you suggesting that we use it for all of the roles. No, I was thinking where I made the suggestion, for not specifically for anonymous, just to help distinguish the fact that this is for people who like you don't assign this to a user. It's people who are not logged into the site. 482 01:01:35.840 --> 01:01:37.880 Aaron McHale: It's a way to. It's a way to. 483 01:01:37.910 --> 01:01:46.610 Aaron McHale: In fact, the the the purpose of the anonymous role is to be able to assign some permissions to anybody who isn't logged in. 484 01:01:47.590 --> 01:01:54.910 Aaron McHale: and the authenticated rule is the flip side of that. You can assign permission to this rule that everybody who is locked in will get 485 01:01:56.900 --> 01:02:00.310 Aaron McHale: actually, maybe that's something to communicate in the descriptions 486 01:02:01.820 --> 01:02:04.909 Benji Fisher: that anonymous and authenticated their complementary roles. 487 01:02:05.290 --> 01:02:08.250 Aaron McHale: Yes. And 488 01:02:10.710 --> 01:02:24.380 Aaron McHale: yeah, and that they just how? Yeah, that you can. essentially, yeah. And then, you know, like one. If you're not a then you can. You can give permissions to everybody who's out there, and you can get permissions to everybody who is all in kind of thing. 489 01:03:04.310 --> 01:03:09.299 Benji Fisher: coming close to the end of the hour. 490 01:03:09.400 --> 01:03:11.800 Benji Fisher: about 5 or 6 min left. 491 01:03:16.200 --> 01:03:18.960 Thomas: I I had 1 point, Benji. That's okay. 492 01:03:19.180 --> 01:03:20.440 Benji Fisher: speak up a little. 493 01:03:20.580 --> 01:03:24.459 Thomas: I, I have 1 point. If that's okay, I 494 01:03:25.210 --> 01:03:29.439 Thomas: I was realizing that in looking at these definitions. 495 01:03:29.560 --> 01:03:35.280 Thomas: we're defining them in the context of website users 496 01:03:36.480 --> 01:03:39.409 Thomas: and in a decoupled environment 497 01:03:39.940 --> 01:03:46.500 Thomas: or in an environment where these where there may be roles for data 498 01:03:47.640 --> 01:03:51.919 Thomas: for machines essentially so machine roles 499 01:03:52.060 --> 01:04:09.020 Thomas: or other things that are using Apis, etc., etc. I'm wondering if for our big 3 anonymous, authenticated administrator we should indicate that this is part of the web, like a website paradigm or a non decoupled 500 01:04:09.190 --> 01:04:18.520 Thomas: environment like, is there? Might it make sense to say, Hey, this is the this is the default or usual way of these things existing 501 01:04:18.870 --> 01:04:25.149 Thomas: and then indicating when people are creating descriptions they can specify. If something is a machine roll, etc., etc. 502 01:04:27.650 --> 01:04:41.499 Thomas: That would be very helpful information to have, and that would indicate some knowledge that is critical, that it's not available to someone, adding content or adding roles later in life. 503 01:04:41.770 --> 01:04:44.950 Thomas: not or not, not adding rules, 504 01:04:45.170 --> 01:04:54.010 Thomas: adding roles to a user later in life who may need to know what those definitions are? because you shouldn't give a machine role, for instance, to a human being. 505 01:04:54.060 --> 01:04:56.169 Thomas: And I'm just thinking in. 506 01:04:56.250 --> 01:05:02.479 Thomas: it's different in our new context of decoupled or progressively decoupled environments. 507 01:05:03.830 --> 01:05:04.600 Benji Fisher: Hmm. 508 01:05:06.100 --> 01:05:10.249 Benji Fisher: I'm not sure that technically, there's a distinction. I I typically. 509 01:05:10.940 --> 01:05:21.600 Benji Fisher: If you're accessing an Api provided by triple you either you don't have any authentication, in which case 510 01:05:21.730 --> 01:05:25.280 Benji Fisher: you have the same access that an anonymous user has 511 01:05:25.520 --> 01:05:31.939 Benji Fisher: or you do have some sort of authentication. And typically you're accessing as 512 01:05:32.210 --> 01:05:33.730 Benji Fisher: a particular user. 513 01:05:35.310 --> 01:05:49.320 Thomas: I guess what I'm getting at, though, is that it's a pattern that would make sense in the context of how a lot of other software operates in the world. And it would be a healthy one for us to be having. If we want to be a 514 01:05:49.710 --> 01:05:52.769 Thomas: essentially first class, 515 01:05:53.790 --> 01:06:10.320 Thomas: decoupled environment like it. It's it's it's very strange that we wouldn't be able to differentiate between A slack, slash command authenticating, and a person. 516 01:06:11.390 --> 01:06:21.290 Thomas: because there would be nothing to to differentiate those things. And you can't look at the data patterns, you can't you? There's a lot of mission missing information. So 517 01:06:22.470 --> 01:06:28.770 Benji Fisher: so it is the role description, the appropriate place to put that. Does that belong 518 01:06:29.770 --> 01:06:33.119 Benji Fisher: in the description of any particular role? 519 01:06:33.840 --> 01:06:41.170 Thomas: I don't know. I don't have an answer to that. I just think it was an interesting question I had. So I'm proposing it more than anything. 520 01:06:41.680 --> 01:06:49.649 Benji Fisher: Okay, we have just a couple of minutes left. I can leave this Google Doc open. As long as people are interested 521 01:06:49.780 --> 01:06:52.350 Benji Fisher: we can continue the discussion on the slack 522 01:06:52.670 --> 01:06:57.750 Benji Fisher: and when we have some good proposals, let's add them to the issue. 523 01:06:57.930 --> 01:07:10.620 Benji Fisher: it's it's already needs work because it needs to re-roll. we need some updates to the test fixtures. I guess. what we're proposing is technically the easiest 524 01:07:11.030 --> 01:07:18.920 Benji Fisher: change to make. But but we'll have a big impact on usability of of this issue. Any other last comments 525 01:07:19.840 --> 01:07:22.029 should we link this 526 01:07:22.080 --> 01:07:26.329 Simo Hellsten: Google, Doc, to the right way. There was this cost in slack 527 01:07:28.010 --> 01:07:37.660 Benji Fisher: I don't think that's too helpful. Let's just use the Google Doc. Maybe today, possibly over the weekend. And and when we have some 528 01:07:37.840 --> 01:07:41.399 Benji Fisher: good recommendations, let's just add those recommendations to the issue. 529 01:07:41.590 --> 01:07:42.350 Simo Hellsten: Okay. 530 01:07:43.820 --> 01:07:48.950 Aaron McHale: so just one final thing, I like to like that in slack. On 531 01:07:49.190 --> 01:07:50.850 Aaron McHale: Tuesday 532 01:07:51.150 --> 01:07:55.019 Aaron McHale: I posted 533 01:07:55.260 --> 01:07:58.350 Aaron McHale: an issue where I thought we could try 534 01:07:58.760 --> 01:08:02.920 Aaron McHale: working on asynchronously, because we have the the 535 01:08:02.980 --> 01:08:08.539 Aaron McHale: situation where we do have a lot of this. Just review it. Quite often we get issues to our 536 01:08:08.670 --> 01:08:18.649 Aaron McHale: text changes or wording. We right? So we could potentially be doing, you know, doing this and crystalline using the meeting times for more complex things like, exactly what we're doing right now. So 537 01:08:18.800 --> 01:08:36.829 Aaron McHale: yeah, just a 5 bits there, please. go contribute. I know Ralph Post is saying it wasn't able to reproduce the problem. But so it's so into that. But yeah, just to like that for everybody. it'd be good to to maybe try out an asynchronous approach to some of the issues that we that might help us get through the backlog. So 538 01:08:36.899 --> 01:08:39.240 Aaron McHale: you just want to find that. Okay. 539 01:08:41.410 --> 01:08:45.289 Benji Fisher: thank you all. And hope to see you all again next week. 540 01:08:46.490 --> 01:08:49.410 Emma Horrell: Thanks bye, bye. 541 01:09:05.859 --> 01:09:12.330 Benji Fisher: Eric. Do you think you'll be able to make it next week? You, or will you again have the conflict with your your stand up meeting. 542 01:09:13.450 --> 01:09:17.460 Eric: Yeah, I I should come every meeting. But I do have like stand up every day, 1030 543 01:09:17.550 --> 01:09:20.150 Eric: to 11. And today, which is 544 01:09:20.569 --> 01:09:24.679 Eric: the whole thing, because it was our first day back. And 545 01:09:25.180 --> 01:09:27.719 Eric: one of my customers 546 01:09:27.729 --> 01:09:38.659 Eric: at the eleventh hour, they're like, oh, we need these 4 more things after our site before we go live, even though they've asked for nothing in the last month. So 547 01:09:38.890 --> 01:09:42.699 Benji Fisher: so you'll be typically be able to make the first half of the meeting going forward. 548 01:09:42.970 --> 01:09:49.609 Eric: Yeah, I can always make the the first half. you know, it's something I want to do. It's kind of exciting to be able to 549 01:09:49.840 --> 01:09:58.519 Eric: to get more involved. I've always wanted to, but it's like, then you get stuck, and then you get discouraged, and you like that. whatever. So 550 01:09:58.740 --> 01:10:09.169 Benji Fisher: okay? And if you put your slack username on the issue for next week's meeting, then you'll I'll give you a ping 10 min before the meeting starts. 551 01:10:09.600 --> 01:10:16.879 Benji Fisher: Okay? So which any issue? You just listen to the script, the summary somewhere, the username or 552 01:10:17.660 --> 01:10:20.180 Eric: okay, here, I'll 553 01:10:20.440 --> 01:10:25.370 Benji Fisher: let me just briefly share my screen again, just to show you 554 01:10:25.720 --> 01:10:28.229 Benji Fisher: Where's the button to share my screen? 555 01:10:29.380 --> 01:10:30.360 Benji Fisher: What else? 556 01:10:32.490 --> 01:10:34.199 Benji Fisher: That's odd. Oh. 557 01:10:34.800 --> 01:10:37.850 Benji Fisher: because I started to close the meeting. 559 01:10:44.240 --> 01:11:00.149 Eric: I saw This triple slack archives see one anything is that? No, that was just some discussion or another. But here's the issue for today's meeting. I I post the links in the slack channel. 560 01:11:00.230 --> 01:11:07.689 Benji Fisher: And just just right, here is a list of slack usernames, and if you add your name to that list 561 01:11:07.850 --> 01:11:09.900 Benji Fisher: you will get things in the slack channel. 562 01:11:10.380 --> 01:11:16.359 Eric: So this one has 3364460, I'm in the wrong. One city. 563 01:11:16.580 --> 01:11:20.280 Eric: 3, 3, 6, 4, 4, 6, 564 01:11:20.450 --> 01:11:21.959 Benji Fisher: 444, 6, 565 01:11:26.940 --> 01:11:27.650 Eric: right. 566 01:11:31.140 --> 01:11:32.770 Eric: 4. And 567 01:11:34.630 --> 01:11:40.789 Eric: there it is. And then so here's the issue for today's meeting. And the Link child issue 568 01:11:41.670 --> 01:11:44.189 Benji Fisher: is the issue for next week's meeting. 569 01:11:45.350 --> 01:11:49.039 Eric: That's the one where you should add your name 570 01:11:49.290 --> 01:11:54.439 Eric: for next week. Oh, 6, 16 got it? See it there and then 571 01:11:57.320 --> 01:11:59.980 Eric: you over there add a comment. 572 01:12:01.020 --> 01:12:02.270 Eric: Is that what you see? 573 01:12:02.940 --> 01:12:05.319 Eric: No, just just edit the description 574 01:12:05.740 --> 01:12:10.960 Eric: I can get into the description. I did not realize that I see it now. 575 01:12:11.110 --> 01:12:11.980 Eric: Okay. 576 01:12:12.510 --> 01:12:22.700 Eric: I just need to look at my slack name. I never really fit out. Okay, that's good. I will add it there. Thank you very much. You're welcome. 577 01:12:22.920 --> 01:12:25.269 Eric: Alright, take care, bye.