WEBVTT 32 00:06:54.120 --> 00:06:59.839 Benji Fisher: welcome. This is the triple usability meeting for June sixteenth. 33 00:07:00.150 --> 00:07:02.790 Benji Fisher: 2,023 at the 34 00:07:03.190 --> 00:07:06.460 Benji Fisher: browser open to the wrong issue. Yes, today is the sixteenth 35 00:07:06.800 --> 00:07:14.010 Benji Fisher: I'm Benji Fisher, moderating and sharing my screen, and also present, are in thumb. And Ralph Kohler. 36 00:07:14.640 --> 00:07:25.340 Benji Fisher: So let's start off by returning to the issue we were discussing last week. It is 2, 5, 6, 2, 8, 7 37 00:07:26.580 --> 00:07:31.030 Benji Fisher: It can paste that into the 38 00:07:32.250 --> 00:07:33.569 Benji Fisher: zoom chat as well. 39 00:07:33.890 --> 00:07:42.750 Benji Fisher: This issue is to give roles a description value. And let's see if we look at the 40 00:07:43.180 --> 00:07:48.429 Benji Fisher: current version of tuple. If you go to people 41 00:07:49.620 --> 00:07:51.280 Benji Fisher: and rolls 42 00:07:52.140 --> 00:08:00.020 Benji Fisher: there's just a list of the roles by name, and then the operations 43 00:08:00.340 --> 00:08:04.780 Benji Fisher: which allow you to edit at permissions or translate 44 00:08:05.670 --> 00:08:12.939 Benji Fisher: and the proposal is to add another column to this table 45 00:08:12.980 --> 00:08:14.700 Benji Fisher: with a description. 46 00:08:15.490 --> 00:08:19.280 Benji Fisher: let me just open the screenshot. 47 00:08:23.560 --> 00:08:29.360 Benji Fisher: and what we discussed last week is that this seems like a good idea, but the 48 00:08:29.490 --> 00:08:32.760 Benji Fisher: suggested descriptions are pretty minimal. 49 00:08:33.049 --> 00:08:45.699 Benji Fisher: of course the descriptions will be editable by the Site administrators. So They they can make them more meaningful. But we'd like to start off with something. 50 00:08:45.960 --> 00:08:49.009 Benji Fisher: a a a little more 51 00:08:49.760 --> 00:08:51.210 Benji Fisher: content, full 52 00:08:51.510 --> 00:09:02.290 Benji Fisher: right administrators the role get into admin users. The description isn't really adding anything to the name. in Ralph for you both here last week. 53 00:09:04.300 --> 00:09:08.530 Quynh Pham: No, I was not. I was still in Pittsburgh. 54 00:09:08.670 --> 00:09:13.219 Ralf Koller: I've texted the link to the talk. I wasn't there. 55 00:09:14.810 --> 00:09:20.929 Benji Fisher: So Quint that any questions about the what the problem is and what we're trying to do. 56 00:09:21.980 --> 00:09:28.999 Quynh Pham: So we are trying to come up with the meaningful descriptions. Okay? 57 00:09:30.370 --> 00:09:33.710 Quynh Pham: No question. I'll think about the 58 00:09:34.170 --> 00:09:35.270 Quynh Pham: sentence. 59 00:09:35.390 --> 00:09:42.370 Benji Fisher: Okay, so we we had this Google talk we were using to work on. And I think some edits have been made 60 00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:44.690 Benji Fisher: over the past week. 61 00:09:45.790 --> 00:09:50.820 Benji Fisher: and I think we shouldn't 62 00:09:54.070 --> 00:10:06.700 Benji Fisher: we? We shouldn't spend too much time trying to get it perfect. Let's just get something that's an improvement over what's currently in the issue and make the recommendation and move this issue forward. 63 00:10:06.990 --> 00:10:11.400 Benji Fisher: Oh! And I see that offer shallow is just joined us. Welcome offer 64 00:10:12.830 --> 00:10:17.480 Benji Fisher: so briefly offer. The idea is that on the 65 00:10:17.610 --> 00:10:19.690 Benji Fisher: page that lists the roles 66 00:10:19.880 --> 00:10:27.779 Benji Fisher: on this issue is about adding a column, and here's a screenshot showing a description column has been added. 67 00:10:28.150 --> 00:10:36.549 Benji Fisher: and we'd like to have something more meaningful than the role given to admin users as the description for the administrator role. 68 00:10:37.860 --> 00:10:46.469 Benji Fisher: and again, we were working on this last week. we have several suggestions. Let's just choose something 69 00:10:46.690 --> 00:10:50.440 Benji Fisher: and and put it in the issue. So 70 00:10:51.530 --> 00:11:01.029 Benji Fisher: see, why is this highlighted? Is that just because, Ralph, you put a comment on it? Or. 71 00:11:01.480 --> 00:11:09.030 Benji Fisher: okay. and is, is this so what you would like to recommend? 72 00:11:10.250 --> 00:11:21.900 Ralf Koller: I would one idea. The first part is, I'm picking up the pattern used in the sentence before and in the authenticated part. 73 00:11:22.060 --> 00:11:27.280 Ralf Koller: and in the second part I just try to make it more explicit what the actual things are 74 00:11:28.220 --> 00:11:30.410 Ralf Koller: people are able to do 75 00:11:30.520 --> 00:11:32.330 Ralf Koller: as anonymous users. 76 00:11:34.360 --> 00:11:38.989 Benji Fisher: Okay, I would like to suggest a few further changes, and I'm sorry that I didn't 77 00:11:39.640 --> 00:11:43.440 Benji Fisher: have time to do this over the course of last week. 78 00:11:44.170 --> 00:11:48.720 Benji Fisher: But, oops! I thought I had copied that 79 00:11:54.350 --> 00:11:56.379 Benji Fisher: first of all. 80 00:11:57.510 --> 00:12:01.090 Benji Fisher: Oh, interesting! It got the highlighting 81 00:12:01.750 --> 00:12:03.619 Benji Fisher: first of all. 82 00:12:06.210 --> 00:12:16.019 Benji Fisher: A pair of words to be hyphenated when it's used as an adjective. That's not what we're doing in doing here. A logged in user would have a hyphen. 83 00:12:16.330 --> 00:12:19.490 Benji Fisher: But a user who is not logged in should not have the hyphen 84 00:12:20.290 --> 00:12:23.119 Benji Fisher: And then. 85 00:12:23.580 --> 00:12:25.740 Benji Fisher: on the theory that less is more 86 00:12:26.220 --> 00:12:37.439 Benji Fisher: I don't think we need to make the distinction between comment media and comments. 87 00:12:43.240 --> 00:12:47.349 Benji Fisher: I guess maybe use the sidewide contact, form 88 00:12:50.020 --> 00:12:51.860 Benji Fisher: and search 89 00:12:52.900 --> 00:12:57.139 Benji Fisher: so a little less detail for this fake of brevity. 90 00:12:58.670 --> 00:13:02.159 Benji Fisher: Ralph, do you think that's a terrible change? 91 00:13:03.400 --> 00:13:11.860 Ralf Koller: technically, media and comments could be filed on the 92 00:13:12.300 --> 00:13:13.440 Ralf Koller: content. 93 00:13:14.540 --> 00:13:15.740 Ralf Koller: So 94 00:13:18.450 --> 00:13:22.420 Ralf Koller: yeah. it would be okay. It. It just depends 95 00:13:22.550 --> 00:13:28.860 Ralf Koller: how we both or brief. the other descriptions will be so. 96 00:13:30.360 --> 00:13:38.110 Benji Fisher: Yeah, I I don't think we have to give a complete description. you know one 97 00:13:38.150 --> 00:13:39.210 in it. 98 00:13:39.980 --> 00:13:46.530 Benji Fisher: One can always view the actual list of permissions, and that is the definitive 99 00:13:48.040 --> 00:13:50.849 Benji Fisher: source of what permissions 100 00:13:51.840 --> 00:13:53.290 Benji Fisher: the role has. 101 00:13:54.340 --> 00:13:59.100 Benji Fisher: so I I would prefer to keep it brief. 102 00:14:00.060 --> 00:14:04.309 Benji Fisher: But I'm not always right. Quinn offered. Do you 103 00:14:05.390 --> 00:14:09.690 Benji Fisher: have opinions? Do you like The longer version? The shorter version? 104 00:14:15.980 --> 00:14:20.070 Quynh Pham: How how brief I just posted on the chat? 105 00:14:20.320 --> 00:14:23.369 Quynh Pham: I mean, Allah is short and simple, but I don't. 106 00:14:23.620 --> 00:14:26.899 Quynh Pham: My sentence is way too short. 107 00:14:27.480 --> 00:14:31.470 Quynh Pham: But yeah, just a suggestion. 108 00:14:31.540 --> 00:14:36.000 Benji Fisher: So you you have links to Google, Doc, you could put it in yourself. But I'll I'll do it for you. 109 00:14:36.140 --> 00:14:38.439 Quynh Pham: Okay, I'll I'll do it nicely. 110 00:14:43.260 --> 00:14:47.209 Ofer Shaal: maybe I missed the context from before, but 111 00:14:49.760 --> 00:14:53.310 Ofer Shaal: this anonymous always can you view, publish content? 112 00:14:55.750 --> 00:15:07.519 Benji Fisher: Well, this would be part of configuration in the standard profile. so the descriptions. I think, should reflect what the standard profile 113 00:15:07.580 --> 00:15:08.680 Benji Fisher: gives them. 114 00:15:09.460 --> 00:15:18.069 Ofer Shaal: But but I'm just thinking, let's say I started with that. And then, for whatever reason I need everything secured, you know it's an intranet. 115 00:15:18.270 --> 00:15:23.279 Ofer Shaal: then it I will still have these descriptions. Right? 116 00:15:24.810 --> 00:15:29.540 Benji Fisher: yes, and and I think that's on the 117 00:15:29.630 --> 00:15:32.719 Benji Fisher: same role that if you go to 118 00:15:33.560 --> 00:15:36.530 Benji Fisher: structure content types. 119 00:15:37.000 --> 00:15:50.999 Benji Fisher: if you use a basic page for something very different from this. For example, if basic pages use layout builder and you use them as landing pages. Then 120 00:15:51.230 --> 00:15:53.079 Benji Fisher: you can change this 121 00:15:53.300 --> 00:16:00.240 Benji Fisher: if you don't bother to change the description. It's on you. If you don't 122 00:16:00.290 --> 00:16:03.739 Benji Fisher: care about the descriptions, then it's okay, just to 123 00:16:04.290 --> 00:16:11.270 Ofer Shaal: yeah. I I mean, last, I'm feeling like I I totally get it, I think, for for people, maybe less. 124 00:16:11.430 --> 00:16:20.640 Ofer Shaal: I don't know if this. But some people might freak out when they they know they have an Internet site. But someone did not have data description. 125 00:16:21.960 --> 00:16:25.020 Ofer Shaal: so 126 00:16:26.090 --> 00:16:28.090 Benji Fisher: so you would want to totally 127 00:16:28.350 --> 00:16:31.640 Benji Fisher: leave out the the second part 128 00:16:32.000 --> 00:16:34.069 Benji Fisher: of the sentence. And just 129 00:16:35.220 --> 00:16:44.059 Ofer Shaal: yeah, because I do think that these roles represent right, how do we identify? Are you admin authenticated or anonymous like? 130 00:16:44.230 --> 00:16:47.509 Ofer Shaal: There are different what you want to do with each one? 131 00:16:47.840 --> 00:16:49.770 Ofer Shaal: He's all up to the settings. 132 00:16:50.390 --> 00:16:54.230 Ofer Shaal: I wish there was a way to kind of by default, or 133 00:16:55.660 --> 00:17:09.969 Ofer Shaal: I don't know if we had it somewhere. with Christina. I remember we had a discussion like that where maybe standard role setting is being applied, and then it actually matches. And once you're not there, it's not. But I don't think 134 00:17:10.089 --> 00:17:12.440 Ofer Shaal: this is coming soon. 135 00:17:14.119 --> 00:17:26.109 Ofer Shaal: you know. Kind of a a recipe for for a bundle of of settings that when you put them. Yes, that's right, or like a lot of sites would need anonymous to be able to if you publish content and all that. 136 00:17:28.310 --> 00:17:33.960 Benji Fisher: so we could do something like add by default whoops 137 00:17:36.970 --> 00:17:39.600 Benji Fisher: that delete key 138 00:17:42.110 --> 00:17:45.240 Benji Fisher: sort of hedge our bets, or 139 00:17:46.230 --> 00:17:53.120 Benji Fisher: it it might be safest just not not to say anything about the current permissions, and 140 00:17:54.340 --> 00:17:57.190 Benji Fisher: and if they want to see what the permissions are. 141 00:17:58.790 --> 00:18:01.769 Benji Fisher: you know. Look at the actual list. 142 00:18:06.980 --> 00:18:10.900 Benji Fisher: or we could go back to something like this. 143 00:18:11.490 --> 00:18:19.570 Benji Fisher: visitors, not who it's not logged in has this role. And then this role is typically given permissions to view content. 144 00:18:19.610 --> 00:18:21.660 Benji Fisher: And sometimes I have comments. 145 00:18:22.800 --> 00:18:33.580 Ofer Shaal: yeah, I I don't remember the last time I had it I used comments module. But yeah, I'm connected more to that 146 00:18:34.320 --> 00:18:35.450 Ofer Shaal: description. 147 00:18:38.380 --> 00:18:39.810 Ofer Shaal: That's my vote. 148 00:18:42.060 --> 00:18:44.590 Benji Fisher: So you like this one near the top. 149 00:18:45.390 --> 00:18:46.220 Ofer Shaal: Yeah. 150 00:18:47.910 --> 00:18:51.390 Benji Fisher: when Ralph 151 00:18:51.590 --> 00:18:52.720 Benji Fisher: opinions? 152 00:18:58.280 --> 00:19:00.670 Quynh Pham: I I 153 00:19:01.050 --> 00:19:06.660 Quynh Pham: I'm kind of like the last one by default. The unlock register. I can view content 154 00:19:08.850 --> 00:19:10.950 Quynh Pham: because it's 155 00:19:12.420 --> 00:19:16.220 Quynh Pham: you know. We are all Admins, and we go on. 156 00:19:16.380 --> 00:19:20.229 Quynh Pham: We gotta read something short and simple. 157 00:19:50.250 --> 00:19:54.400 Ralf Koller: And Thomas has joined us, too. 158 00:19:54.510 --> 00:19:59.110 Benji Fisher: Thomas, we're continuing the discussion from last week, and it's not not as 159 00:19:59.740 --> 00:20:03.540 Benji Fisher: brief as I had hoped to be. People still have 160 00:20:04.790 --> 00:20:11.370 Benji Fisher: very different opinions on on what the default descriptions should be for for the user roles. 161 00:20:13.030 --> 00:20:18.330 Thomas: Do we have any examples of what something like this looks in other software? 162 00:20:21.780 --> 00:20:25.130 Benji Fisher: you know. 163 00:20:25.380 --> 00:20:34.040 Benji Fisher: Of course, Tuple's permission system is sort of sort of unique that I don't think anyone else has. 164 00:20:35.730 --> 00:20:40.999 Benji Fisher: has this this robust a permission system for all? Certainly not wordpress. 165 00:20:41.120 --> 00:20:49.229 Thomas: yes. I was just thinking of other systems, because there's a lot of authentication systems out there. 166 00:20:49.450 --> 00:21:00.439 Thomas: I didn't know if any of them like Octa or Chip. I don't know where the current state of industry software is. might be but sorry for asking. 167 00:21:01.460 --> 00:21:06.680 Benji Fisher: No, it's it's it's good point to bring up. I'm I'm sorry I don't have any answers. Anyone else 168 00:21:08.290 --> 00:21:15.970 Ofer Shaal: obviously talking about my point. But I think there's a difference between describing what we're seeing 169 00:21:16.080 --> 00:21:22.490 Ofer Shaal: and getting into the documentation part of of training and and teaching people drupal. 170 00:21:24.380 --> 00:21:28.459 Ofer Shaal: Where to me a description is like, this is what this does. 171 00:21:28.850 --> 00:21:35.000 Ofer Shaal: because everything is flexible. We don't have an automatic way to tell you what it's going to be. 172 00:21:35.250 --> 00:21:38.929 Ofer Shaal: we might say by default or typically what it does. 173 00:21:41.350 --> 00:21:42.790 Benji Fisher: Ralph, go ahead. 174 00:21:43.820 --> 00:21:49.920 Ralf Koller: I agree to hell, the user. What a rule does. And 175 00:21:49.930 --> 00:21:51.110 Ralf Koller: I think 176 00:21:53.170 --> 00:21:57.140 Ralf Koller: we are describing the standard profile. And 177 00:21:57.270 --> 00:22:01.670 Ralf Koller: that way it should be clear to the person what 178 00:22:01.910 --> 00:22:03.090 Ralf Koller: a role 179 00:22:03.790 --> 00:22:05.969 Ralf Koller: covers on a brief look. 180 00:22:06.060 --> 00:22:12.620 Ralf Koller: and if the person then changes the permissions to something else, it's up to the user 181 00:22:12.750 --> 00:22:17.190 Ralf Koller: to basically update the description to reflect that. But 182 00:22:18.690 --> 00:22:21.670 Ralf Koller: I think it should still 183 00:22:22.300 --> 00:22:27.890 Ralf Koller: reflect the standard profile and what the permissions are there. And one 184 00:22:28.230 --> 00:22:31.380 Ralf Koller: comment about the second anonymous 185 00:22:31.780 --> 00:22:35.329 Ralf Koller: suggestion, and the third I have a 186 00:22:35.750 --> 00:22:39.229 Ralf Koller: rather big problem with sometimes to add comments. 187 00:22:39.380 --> 00:22:47.380 Ralf Koller: that doesn't feel right that comments is okay. But sometimes 188 00:22:48.700 --> 00:22:51.099 Ralf Koller: I have questions. Okay. 189 00:22:51.490 --> 00:22:52.510 Benji Fisher: so let's 190 00:22:54.130 --> 00:23:02.359 Benji Fisher: what. Let's have a phone. So Ralph is arguing that this is configuration. This is part of the standard profile. 191 00:23:02.460 --> 00:23:03.680 Benji Fisher: We should 192 00:23:03.760 --> 00:23:08.210 Benji Fisher: say something about the actual permissions provided 193 00:23:08.450 --> 00:23:10.240 Benji Fisher: by the standard profile. 194 00:23:11.530 --> 00:23:16.150 Benji Fisher: and offer was arguing that 195 00:23:16.790 --> 00:23:21.849 Benji Fisher: There's too much danger that this will get out of date. 196 00:23:21.960 --> 00:23:27.740 Benji Fisher: and and people will. we'll we'll worry about it so. 197 00:23:28.770 --> 00:23:36.089 Benji Fisher: and any further comments on on that choice, because I I'd like to sort of settle that and and decide 198 00:23:36.540 --> 00:23:42.749 Benji Fisher: whether or not to mention specific permissions before we go any further. So go ahead, Thomas. 199 00:23:44.240 --> 00:23:49.980 Thomas: I think that The main concern I have is, if you can infer 200 00:23:50.540 --> 00:23:56.010 Thomas: most of what the permissions are, it's less about 201 00:23:57.060 --> 00:24:08.529 Thomas: specific permissions and more about the intent of the role from my perspective, like, it's just trying. I'm trying to think of it from the perspective of someone who's never 202 00:24:08.620 --> 00:24:15.899 Thomas: used a robust permissioning system before, and just trying to understand. What does anonymous mean? And an anonymous 203 00:24:15.910 --> 00:24:19.680 has, like a very specific meaning, authenticated as 204 00:24:19.730 --> 00:24:21.940 Thomas: a very specific meaning 205 00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:29.430 Thomas: and the other things are roles, and you add those too authenticated 206 00:24:29.490 --> 00:24:33.420 Thomas: because you're not going to add content to editor to anonymous. 207 00:24:33.800 --> 00:24:45.150 Thomas: At least, I I guess in theory, but by default you definitely are not going to. So to me, then it's like trying to define. Okay, anonymous. It's telling people a that anonymous is a special role. 208 00:24:46.090 --> 00:24:49.840 Thomas: and everyone has it, or they have authenticated 209 00:24:50.330 --> 00:24:57.220 Thomas: And that's the information that I'd really want to be there. So is that something you cannot glean from 210 00:24:57.260 --> 00:25:09.980 Thomas: the permissions themselves. So to me the the description should be the information that you need to know that you can't learn just by looking at the permissions matrix. 211 00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:17.069 Benji Fisher: Okay? And and Ralph is in the chat, agreeing with with what you're saying. 212 00:25:17.180 --> 00:25:29.279 Benji Fisher: so a more for the or the idea of what the role is supposed to be used for, not not specific permissions. 213 00:25:29.760 --> 00:25:34.930 Benji Fisher: and and yes, I I I agree 214 00:25:35.130 --> 00:25:38.930 Benji Fisher: that we we, we have to make the distinction 215 00:25:39.350 --> 00:25:44.239 Benji Fisher: that every user is either anonymous or authenticated. 216 00:25:44.260 --> 00:25:49.260 Benji Fisher: I also think it's important to mention that the administrator has all permissions. 217 00:25:51.030 --> 00:25:57.109 Benji Fisher: and then there's the content editor role, which 218 00:25:57.230 --> 00:25:59.780 Benji Fisher: you know. is just 219 00:26:00.520 --> 00:26:05.750 Benji Fisher: whatever permissions you give. It is in that role. So Clinton agrees with Thomas 220 00:26:06.070 --> 00:26:12.280 Benji Fisher: and thinking of the use case of a first time. Site builder. 221 00:26:13.850 --> 00:26:16.730 Benji Fisher: so let's 222 00:26:17.230 --> 00:26:19.609 Benji Fisher: here. What's let's do this. Let's start with 223 00:26:19.660 --> 00:26:25.839 Benji Fisher: sort of something sort of minimal. 224 00:26:26.270 --> 00:26:29.919 Benji Fisher: So what's that? We are at least going to say 225 00:26:31.010 --> 00:26:37.429 Benji Fisher: special things about these 2 roles that 226 00:26:38.170 --> 00:26:43.640 Benji Fisher: users who are not logged in. Get the anonymous role. 227 00:26:43.750 --> 00:26:45.950 Benji Fisher: Users who are logged in 228 00:26:46.990 --> 00:26:50.649 Benji Fisher: have the authenticated role. 229 00:26:52.170 --> 00:26:53.710 Benji Fisher: And 230 00:27:00.700 --> 00:27:04.570 Benji Fisher: this role has all permissions. So let's 231 00:27:04.760 --> 00:27:06.439 Benji Fisher: start with that 232 00:27:08.150 --> 00:27:09.810 Benji Fisher: and then think about 233 00:27:11.630 --> 00:27:21.759 Benji Fisher: additional things. So maybe maybe we shouldn't say anything additional for anonymous or authenticated 234 00:27:27.670 --> 00:27:35.600 Benji Fisher: and maybe we like visitors better than users. 235 00:27:41.580 --> 00:27:44.090 Benji Fisher: Maybe we should say who rather than that? 236 00:27:48.560 --> 00:27:52.270 Benji Fisher: And let's make it a full sentence. This role 237 00:27:53.860 --> 00:27:57.709 Benji Fisher: is given to visitors who are not logged in. 238 00:28:00.930 --> 00:28:01.950 Benji Fisher: or 239 00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:07.600 Benji Fisher: alternatively. I guess this is slightly shorter. 240 00:28:11.200 --> 00:28:15.079 Benji Fisher: A visitor who is not logged in has this role. 241 00:28:22.220 --> 00:28:31.710 Benji Fisher: So let's start there. we might add to it either way or we might not. But let's let's start by choosing between these 2. 242 00:28:32.480 --> 00:28:36.359 Benji Fisher: who who prefers the first one. 243 00:28:38.520 --> 00:28:41.500 Benji Fisher: You can speak up or give a thumbs up in zoom, or 244 00:28:44.660 --> 00:28:47.209 Quynh Pham: I like the first one, because it says 245 00:28:47.360 --> 00:28:51.739 Quynh Pham: so. They accident. 246 00:28:53.330 --> 00:28:56.099 Benji Fisher: Okay when likes first, and any. 247 00:28:56.720 --> 00:28:59.209 Benji Fisher: if you don't say anything, I'll just assume you 248 00:28:59.750 --> 00:29:01.830 Benji Fisher: don't have an opinion between the 2. 249 00:29:03.010 --> 00:29:04.310 Benji Fisher: Ralph, go ahead. 250 00:29:04.610 --> 00:29:12.199 Ralf Koller: Just one note. by front loading that this role is inherits the 251 00:29:12.840 --> 00:29:18.710 Ralf Koller: potential problem that other descriptions start with the same, and the 252 00:29:18.750 --> 00:29:21.150 Ralf Koller: just of the role is then moved 253 00:29:22.220 --> 00:29:32.739 Ralf Koller: to the back of the sentence, and that way it might be harder to process for readers in regards to free ability. 254 00:29:33.530 --> 00:29:43.390 Benji Fisher: Okay, so boilerplate text, which might apply to every single line should not be at the start should be at the end of the sentence. 255 00:29:44.330 --> 00:29:45.000 Ralf Koller: Yep. 256 00:29:46.690 --> 00:29:49.150 Benji Fisher: So you prefer the second. 257 00:29:55.760 --> 00:29:59.200 Benji Fisher: Okay, I think if if no one else 258 00:29:59.410 --> 00:30:03.860 Benji Fisher: wants to have an opinion. I'm I'm convinced by Ralph I've 259 00:30:03.970 --> 00:30:08.450 Benji Fisher: and and also by the slightly shorter text. this is 260 00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:12.990 Benji Fisher: even shorter than it looks, because 261 00:30:13.870 --> 00:30:14.960 Benji Fisher: there we go. 262 00:30:21.590 --> 00:30:24.350 Benji Fisher: So visitor who is not logged in has this role. 263 00:30:25.610 --> 00:30:39.719 Benji Fisher: let's unfold this 264 00:30:40.850 --> 00:30:42.160 Benji Fisher: And then 265 00:30:43.200 --> 00:30:45.930 Benji Fisher: this part is. it is similar. 266 00:30:50.900 --> 00:30:54.979 Benji Fisher: I'd like to suggest this. All logged in users. Have this role. 267 00:30:56.020 --> 00:30:57.100 Benji Fisher: Do you like that. 268 00:31:01.030 --> 00:31:02.210 Benji Fisher: Thomas? Go ahead. 269 00:31:02.670 --> 00:31:12.470 Thomas: So this is a little bit different. And so I'm not sure. But I want to make the suggestion. I 270 00:31:12.490 --> 00:31:18.770 Thomas: I feel that this is an opportunity with authenticated to indicate that the word user 271 00:31:18.810 --> 00:31:24.400 Thomas: what you become by logging in. So all visitors who log in 272 00:31:25.840 --> 00:31:27.890 Thomas: or become users in my mind. 273 00:31:29.120 --> 00:31:34.600 Thomas: because that helps to differentiate the conceptually 274 00:31:36.110 --> 00:31:37.870 Thomas: that that 275 00:31:37.950 --> 00:31:41.990 Thomas: anonymous is really in intentionally built 276 00:31:42.070 --> 00:31:47.550 Thomas: for people who don't use the site so much as visit the site, and that just differentiates it. 277 00:31:51.950 --> 00:31:54.730 Thomas: and it turns logged in into a verb. 278 00:31:58.270 --> 00:32:03.140 Thomas: So so what exactly are you suggesting? I'm all visitors who log in 279 00:32:03.470 --> 00:32:11.290 Thomas: our site users and you don't even have to say we don't have to end with the have this role. 280 00:32:11.550 --> 00:32:19.990 Thomas: or is that? Yes, with yeah. 281 00:32:27.480 --> 00:32:30.110 Thomas: or our site users with this role. 282 00:32:38.380 --> 00:32:42.550 Thomas: it may. It makes it visually very different. 283 00:32:48.140 --> 00:32:58.119 Benji Fisher: right? And and and so by by being different, you avoid the problem that it's a whole lot of boilerplate text that just has a a few words different from from one to the next. 284 00:32:58.430 --> 00:33:04.659 Thomas: which makes the eyes glaze over. Go ahead 285 00:33:04.890 --> 00:33:11.490 Thomas: like. And I, maybe we still need that. But I'm trying not half to write it explicitly 286 00:33:11.510 --> 00:33:21.280 Thomas: that these are 2 special use cases, but I have a feeling after that we can then start to come up with, a different type of 287 00:33:21.290 --> 00:33:29.440 Thomas: approach. That's consistent for all of the additional roles. So that these first 2 have a special look without 288 00:33:30.420 --> 00:33:32.790 Thomas: having to explicitly stated. 289 00:33:33.460 --> 00:33:36.660 Benji Fisher: Okay. other opinions on 290 00:33:37.840 --> 00:33:39.509 Benji Fisher: the authenticated role. 291 00:33:44.770 --> 00:33:52.930 Benji Fisher: So can we have a vote between these 2 candidates, all logged in users have this role, or all visitors who log in our site users with this role? 292 00:34:02.590 --> 00:34:07.980 Ralf Koller: Is it necessary to add the with this role at the end? Necessarily 293 00:34:10.440 --> 00:34:12.040 Ralf Koller: and just say 294 00:34:12.210 --> 00:34:16.660 Ralf Koller: all with the in our side users or our users. Of 295 00:34:16.690 --> 00:34:17.969 Ralf Koller: this 5. 296 00:34:27.980 --> 00:34:31.279 Thomas: I'm okay with getting rid of it. It doesn't. Yeah. 297 00:34:38.219 --> 00:34:40.079 Benji Fisher: I wonder? 298 00:34:40.170 --> 00:34:41.500 you 2, 299 00:34:42.630 --> 00:34:44.099 Benji Fisher: let's have a look. 300 00:34:44.219 --> 00:34:47.310 Benji Fisher: add documentation. 301 00:34:51.739 --> 00:34:55.580 Benji Fisher: And I want the curated triple user guide 302 00:34:59.370 --> 00:35:09.110 Benji Fisher: and Copyright Bob. understanding triple module scenes project for licensing. 303 00:35:11.000 --> 00:35:13.600 Benji Fisher: Where does 304 00:35:13.890 --> 00:35:14.580 it 305 00:35:14.730 --> 00:35:16.540 Benji Fisher: talk about 306 00:35:20.410 --> 00:35:27.550 Benji Fisher: users, page management, content, structure, user accounts, concepts, users, roles and permissions. 307 00:35:32.050 --> 00:35:32.810 Benji Fisher: So I 308 00:35:33.340 --> 00:35:38.449 Benji Fisher: I very rarely look at because it's more aimed at 309 00:35:38.570 --> 00:35:40.110 Benji Fisher: beginning users. 310 00:35:40.400 --> 00:35:53.090 Benji Fisher: but what our users, users who are not logged in, or anonymous users who are logged in or authenticated users. 311 00:35:53.530 --> 00:36:04.439 Benji Fisher: The administrative user account that was automatically creat when you install your site or user one. I thought we were trying to get away from the special 312 00:36:05.710 --> 00:36:11.399 Benji Fisher: role of user one and and make make it a a a role. 313 00:36:11.950 --> 00:36:22.199 Benji Fisher: so is. if there's any terminology on this page that we can be consistent with. I think that would be a good thing. 314 00:36:22.700 --> 00:36:26.019 Benji Fisher: How could you 315 00:36:26.220 --> 00:36:29.510 Ralf Koller: copy and paste the link into the chat, please? 316 00:36:29.650 --> 00:36:30.770 Benji Fisher: Sure. 317 00:36:38.430 --> 00:36:39.320 Ralf Koller: thank you. 318 00:36:40.580 --> 00:36:46.660 Benji Fisher: So this doesn't make a distinction between, or doesn't use the word visitor. It it calls 319 00:36:46.880 --> 00:36:50.830 Benji Fisher: both authenticated and anonymous users. Users. 320 00:36:51.390 --> 00:36:56.610 Benji Fisher: does use the phrase, are or are not logged in. 321 00:37:04.790 --> 00:37:09.960 Benji Fisher: I'm not getting a lot of inspiration from this page. I was hoping there there would be some 322 00:37:11.460 --> 00:37:13.989 Benji Fisher: some phrases that we could borrow 323 00:37:18.280 --> 00:37:35.220 Benji Fisher: the only 324 00:37:35.300 --> 00:37:49.030 Ralf Koller: as a pattern that might help, for example, with the content editor role is the examples. What a role is, for example, the a vendor rule that allows vendors to edit their own vendor listing page, meaning 325 00:37:50.360 --> 00:37:59.150 Ralf Koller: to provide a channel that just what? the role empowers I want to. 326 00:38:05.080 --> 00:38:07.559 Benji Fisher: Okay, Thomas, your hand is up. Is that? 327 00:38:08.340 --> 00:38:10.750 Thomas: Yes, I got to put it down or go ahead. 328 00:38:11.410 --> 00:38:20.569 Thomas: Looking at the documentation, I'm just struck by the need to edit the documentation, which is scope creep. 329 00:38:20.650 --> 00:38:27.109 Thomas: I I get very squarely with the word user. 330 00:38:28.920 --> 00:38:30.680 Thomas: I can see how 331 00:38:30.930 --> 00:38:34.290 Thomas: my approach may not be ideal. 332 00:38:36.120 --> 00:38:46.879 Thomas: I'm not hearing any strong opinions from any of us as to what it should be. So I'm worried. We might be bike shedding when none of us have a clear vision of how this can be better 333 00:38:47.210 --> 00:38:48.759 Thomas: if that makes sense. 334 00:38:50.250 --> 00:39:10.099 Thomas: So I guess really, the question that I'm I feel like we're trying to answer is, should we use the word user in both anonymous and authenticated, or should we not? Or should we? Should they be different, differentiated in some way, which is what I was trying to do with visitor versus user? 335 00:39:10.230 --> 00:39:20.429 Thomas: Whatever we do. If we choose to change or differentiate the 2, then we're going to have to open 336 00:39:21.250 --> 00:39:24.880 Thomas: a second or a a 337 00:39:25.200 --> 00:39:33.190 Thomas: side issue to get the documentation updated. Because I think that what we don't want to do is introduce text here 338 00:39:33.200 --> 00:39:41.890 Thomas: that looks radically different than what's like. I I would suggest that this gets updated to the documentation. So these mirror one another. 339 00:39:47.300 --> 00:39:49.880 Benji Fisher: So you would just like to use. 340 00:39:57.000 --> 00:40:02.299 Thomas: I I don't want to use this. I'm saying we should either use this 341 00:40:03.070 --> 00:40:04.240 Thomas: or 342 00:40:04.940 --> 00:40:18.169 Thomas: we're going to need to change this to match what we're we're suggesting. And so, if we want to keep it simple, the question becomes, does the sentence users who are not logged in make cognitive sense 343 00:40:18.410 --> 00:40:21.730 Thomas: to a new, uninitiated person 344 00:40:21.940 --> 00:40:31.789 Thomas: coming into drupal. So if if that sentence is good, we don't need the or anonymous users, we just would. The definition or description would be users who are not logged in. But 345 00:40:31.910 --> 00:40:35.400 Thomas: is that good enough? Or do we think it needs to change? 346 00:40:36.900 --> 00:40:37.790 Benji Fisher: Oh. 347 00:40:38.170 --> 00:40:44.790 Benji Fisher: I don't especially like that, because I think a description should be a full sentence which this is not 348 00:40:46.330 --> 00:40:49.400 Thomas: agreed. but I that I would suggest that 349 00:40:49.550 --> 00:40:53.079 Thomas: we tweak this, and then we update documentation with the second issue. 350 00:41:00.280 --> 00:41:01.800 Benji Fisher: Okay? So I 351 00:41:03.280 --> 00:41:10.919 Benji Fisher: feel free to file an issue to update the documentation that's has its own separate process. 352 00:41:11.050 --> 00:41:13.470 Benji Fisher: right? This is 353 00:41:13.670 --> 00:41:23.159 Benji Fisher: this part of the documentation is not the wiki where anyone can go into that at the page. you have to create an issue and and and discuss it to update this. So 354 00:41:23.880 --> 00:41:32.689 Thomas: the though, to change that sentence, if if we wanted to fix it, we could say, a visitor is a user who is not logged in. 355 00:41:32.750 --> 00:41:33.920 Thomas: and then 356 00:41:34.540 --> 00:41:38.190 Thomas: authenticated is a visitor 357 00:41:38.210 --> 00:41:40.659 Thomas: who is logged in, and then that 358 00:41:40.770 --> 00:41:49.659 Thomas: creates that binary. not sure I love it, but that would make it a full sentence and would align it with what is in documentation. 359 00:41:51.620 --> 00:41:54.080 Benji Fisher: Okay, so let's 360 00:41:57.620 --> 00:41:59.939 Benji Fisher: let's go with what we we think, is 361 00:42:00.980 --> 00:42:09.899 Benji Fisher: it? It is the best text. So I I forget. What did we decide on anonymous? If we sign on on the first or the second. 362 00:42:11.370 --> 00:42:16.479 Thomas: you prefer the second, because it back loads has this role. 363 00:42:17.240 --> 00:42:18.890 Thomas: That's right. And 364 00:42:19.620 --> 00:42:27.819 Benji Fisher: and I was agreeing with Ralph there, and when an offer didn't have opinions, so that's on that. 365 00:42:29.470 --> 00:42:37.290 Benji Fisher: and we are more than halfway through the hours. So I I would like to wrap this up and and again, it doesn't have to be perfect. But 366 00:42:37.380 --> 00:42:43.440 Benji Fisher: but I want an improvement over what's currently in the issue. 367 00:42:43.580 --> 00:42:50.949 Thomas: Then to to follow the pattern we could just say a visitor who is logged in has this role. 368 00:42:57.310 --> 00:43:02.409 Thomas: It's similar to the second sentence for authenticated, but follows the pattern of the first sentence. 369 00:43:07.950 --> 00:43:09.480 Benji Fisher: a visitor 370 00:43:14.060 --> 00:43:15.230 Benji Fisher: is 372 00:43:23.360 --> 00:43:25.810 Benji Fisher: in 373 00:43:29.720 --> 00:43:43.240 Ralf Koller: but the only that that regard is. if you just skim anonymous the description, and skim the authenticated the description, then 374 00:43:43.270 --> 00:43:46.700 Ralf Koller: it differs in just one word 375 00:43:47.740 --> 00:43:49.080 Ralf Koller: and 376 00:43:50.790 --> 00:43:52.580 Ralf Koller: might be harder to process. 377 00:43:55.430 --> 00:43:58.200 Benji Fisher: Yeah, I I agree with that 378 00:44:01.670 --> 00:44:03.470 Benji Fisher: And and I think we've we've 379 00:44:04.480 --> 00:44:10.659 Benji Fisher: we. We've come up with this principle before that. you know, having 380 00:44:10.830 --> 00:44:25.989 Benji Fisher: a lot of descriptions that are identical except for changing one or 2 words, is is not really an effective way to communicate. It's not scannable. I I actually think that having a different sentence structure 381 00:44:26.280 --> 00:44:30.840 Benji Fisher: is an advantage rather than going for consistency. 382 00:44:31.190 --> 00:44:35.640 Thomas: so you could say, like all logged in visitors, have this role. 383 00:44:38.060 --> 00:44:41.920 Thomas: It follows the same language. 384 00:44:44.740 --> 00:44:48.329 Thomas: Oh, but you know, the differentiator is not okay. 385 00:44:48.440 --> 00:44:49.170 Yeah. 386 00:44:50.360 --> 00:45:00.930 Benji Fisher: And we we normally use user. I I think the suggestion here was to use visitor sort of as an exception. 387 00:45:01.180 --> 00:45:04.020 Benji Fisher: for the anonymous role. 388 00:45:04.660 --> 00:45:11.210 Benji Fisher: because visitor doesn't necessarily have an an account 389 00:45:11.260 --> 00:45:14.370 Ralf Koller: that should be communicated by that indirectly 390 00:45:15.050 --> 00:45:17.880 Benji Fisher: right? So 391 00:45:19.420 --> 00:45:21.449 Benji Fisher: I vote for this first one. 392 00:45:26.580 --> 00:45:27.949 Benji Fisher: I agree. Disagree. 393 00:45:32.600 --> 00:45:38.269 Benji Fisher: I'm getting 2 thumbs up from Thomas and Ralph. Okay, so let me unbolt these other 2. 394 00:45:40.250 --> 00:45:43.310 Quynh Pham: Yeah, I I like the first one. 395 00:45:43.580 --> 00:45:44.639 Benji Fisher: okay, great. 396 00:45:47.400 --> 00:45:49.430 Benji Fisher: And then administrator. 397 00:45:53.820 --> 00:45:57.209 Benji Fisher: any alternatives to this thing that I have in bold. 398 00:46:00.010 --> 00:46:02.480 Ralf Koller: Well, go ahead. I 399 00:46:03.090 --> 00:46:11.099 Ralf Koller: would just suggest to add one detail to that suggests to your suggestion. 400 00:46:11.270 --> 00:46:12.050 Ralf Koller: I've 401 00:46:12.430 --> 00:46:27.310 Ralf Koller: added a command to meaning something. We also added to the role settings that all current permissions, as well as all future permissions. If you add a module and install it that those 402 00:46:27.490 --> 00:46:31.620 Ralf Koller: will be also added to your administrator role. 403 00:46:33.180 --> 00:46:35.680 Ralf Koller: That isn't communicated there. 404 00:46:40.160 --> 00:46:41.850 Benji Fisher: Okay. And Thomas. 405 00:46:43.690 --> 00:46:53.129 Thomas: I I would add in a little slightly more. You may not like this, but I would say, this role gives a user all 406 00:46:53.520 --> 00:46:56.300 Thomas: current and future permissions 407 00:46:59.960 --> 00:47:02.929 Thomas: this role 408 00:47:03.310 --> 00:47:08.850 Thomas: gives a user all current and future 409 00:47:09.200 --> 00:47:10.350 Thomas: permissions. 410 00:47:18.820 --> 00:47:21.140 Thomas: and that establishes a pattern of 411 00:47:21.390 --> 00:47:26.880 Thomas: really everything after anonymous and authenticated are roles that are modifying 412 00:47:27.640 --> 00:47:28.670 Thomas: something. 413 00:47:51.000 --> 00:47:55.599 Thomas: And I think that's something that isn't clear. With the other descriptions. 414 00:47:56.040 --> 00:48:15.159 Thomas: every person is going to be either anonymous or authenticated. You don't log in and lose authenticated and get administrator administrator gets added to authenticated It took me a long time to understand 415 00:48:15.300 --> 00:48:17.609 Thomas: that nuance 416 00:48:17.660 --> 00:48:19.820 Thomas: of the drupal permissioning system. 417 00:48:21.640 --> 00:48:29.029 Thomas: It's It makes every other role an add on, whereas the first 2 roles are are 418 00:48:29.560 --> 00:48:32.060 Thomas: baked in, you have to have one or the other. 419 00:48:35.310 --> 00:48:37.489 Benji Fisher: So I wonder if we should 420 00:48:38.600 --> 00:48:40.330 Benji Fisher: add to this 421 00:48:42.410 --> 00:48:53.950 Benji Fisher: and I didn't want 422 00:48:56.730 --> 00:49:01.810 Benji Fisher: oh, it's time to it, users. 423 00:49:02.230 --> 00:49:04.900 Benji Fisher: They have additional roles. 424 00:49:05.540 --> 00:49:07.710 Benji Fisher: This. 425 00:49:10.970 --> 00:49:12.709 Benji Fisher: Do you think we should add something like that? 426 00:49:15.350 --> 00:49:20.710 Thomas: I'm not a hundred percent on the words. But I think conceptually that is important. 427 00:49:22.300 --> 00:49:29.189 Ralf Koller: that all other given rules extend the capabilities of the user? 428 00:49:35.420 --> 00:49:37.490 Benji Fisher: Or how about 429 00:49:42.040 --> 00:49:44.999 Benji Fisher: all logged in user. 430 00:49:46.480 --> 00:49:49.830 Benji Fisher: all logged in users. 431 00:49:50.070 --> 00:49:51.790 Benji Fisher: have this role 432 00:49:57.460 --> 00:50:01.090 Benji Fisher: and may have additional roles. 433 00:50:05.520 --> 00:50:06.909 Thomas: I like that 434 00:50:17.350 --> 00:50:21.650 Benji Fisher: other opinions. Do you prefer this to the original shorter version. 435 00:50:28.120 --> 00:50:30.669 Quynh Pham: Yeah, I like the test one. It's 436 00:50:30.890 --> 00:50:35.449 Quynh Pham: simple, but conveys And of meetings. 437 00:50:36.380 --> 00:50:37.730 Quynh Pham: Yes. 438 00:50:37.780 --> 00:50:45.519 Benji Fisher: having trouble triple clicking to select the line. Why is this not working there we go. Okay. So Quinton and Thomas, you both like this one. 439 00:50:47.360 --> 00:50:50.640 Thomas: Yes, okay, let's go with that 440 00:50:53.290 --> 00:50:54.260 Benji Fisher: on goal. 441 00:50:58.020 --> 00:51:01.429 Benji Fisher: so back to administrator. 442 00:51:05.790 --> 00:51:08.290 Benji Fisher: this role has all permissions. 443 00:51:09.590 --> 00:51:15.959 Benji Fisher: A user with this role has all permissions. This role gives the user all current and future permissions. 444 00:51:19.120 --> 00:51:26.339 Ralf Koller: A user has all current and future admissions user with this role can manage site structure and configuration 445 00:51:34.670 --> 00:51:36.160 Ralf Koller: all about. 446 00:52:02.980 --> 00:52:06.310 Benji Fisher: I think that last one is too long. 447 00:52:08.520 --> 00:52:11.070 Quynh Pham: Yes, I'm trying to 448 00:52:12.080 --> 00:52:20.360 Quynh Pham: just just a try out to to use the automatically permission. Because, like Thomas said, when 449 00:52:20.940 --> 00:52:24.190 Quynh Pham: we somehow we need to put the 450 00:52:24.520 --> 00:52:30.270 Quynh Pham: current commission as well as the future permission. But it's automatically 451 00:52:30.690 --> 00:52:31.760 Quynh Pham: granted. 452 00:52:55.520 --> 00:52:58.299 Benji Fisher: Oops I didn't need to do that. 453 00:53:29.240 --> 00:53:31.550 Benji Fisher: so I don't know whether we want to 454 00:53:31.620 --> 00:53:40.670 Benji Fisher: introduce the idea that permissions are created by modules, which is true. But maybe isn't. Maybe this isn't the right place to 455 00:53:41.190 --> 00:53:42.739 Benji Fisher: try to explain that 456 00:53:43.050 --> 00:53:55.920 Benji Fisher: But if we say, from all enabled modules, I I I I I I don't like the idea of future permissions. 457 00:53:58.490 --> 00:54:04.179 Benji Fisher: and and this is a little more technically accurate that if you enable a module 458 00:54:04.830 --> 00:54:06.540 Benji Fisher: now or in the future 459 00:54:06.720 --> 00:54:13.209 Benji Fisher: But if you have an enabled module then, and it provides permissions, those permissions will be assigned to 460 00:54:13.560 --> 00:54:15.560 Benji Fisher: a user with the administrator role. 461 00:54:22.890 --> 00:54:24.210 Benji Fisher: and I 462 00:54:26.760 --> 00:54:31.630 Benji Fisher: I think my preference is still for the bolded one. it's short. 463 00:54:32.770 --> 00:54:36.909 Benji Fisher: In my opinion. All permissions is clear enough. 464 00:54:36.930 --> 00:54:43.030 Benji Fisher: and doesn't need the qualification of permissions that might be added in the future. 465 00:54:44.880 --> 00:54:49.560 Benji Fisher: But again, that's that's just my opinion. I'm not always right. 466 00:54:50.560 --> 00:54:52.230 Benji Fisher: So 467 00:54:54.410 --> 00:54:56.760 Benji Fisher: and someone is typing a. 468 00:55:00.520 --> 00:55:01.390 Benji Fisher: I guess 469 00:55:03.250 --> 00:55:07.139 Benji Fisher: what I was looking at just one way. So it okay, so administrator role. 470 00:55:07.280 --> 00:55:10.070 Benji Fisher: my preference is for shortened suites. 471 00:55:10.140 --> 00:55:14.459 Benji Fisher: who else has a a favorite among 472 00:55:15.440 --> 00:55:17.150 Benji Fisher: current options? 473 00:55:19.150 --> 00:55:23.749 Benji Fisher: You can just go into the Google Doc and and Bold one of the lines, if you like. 474 00:55:30.270 --> 00:55:31.450 Benji Fisher: Ralph, go ahead. 475 00:55:31.740 --> 00:55:34.180 Ralf Koller: Just one comment 476 00:55:35.220 --> 00:55:36.380 Ralf Koller: per. Say. 477 00:55:37.310 --> 00:55:47.570 Ralf Koller: I agree that has all permissions is good. But I just like that. It starts with this role. And in contrast. 478 00:55:48.240 --> 00:55:51.150 Ralf Koller: technically, I like the suggestion I made 479 00:55:51.260 --> 00:55:58.499 Ralf Koller: with all the current and future commissions. But I agree that the future permissions. Part is 480 00:55:59.170 --> 00:56:01.880 Ralf Koller: sub optimal and also not desired. 481 00:56:02.950 --> 00:56:08.100 Ralf Koller: But yeah, still, the this role has all permissions with this rule. I'm 482 00:56:08.760 --> 00:56:10.770 Ralf Koller: not very content with 483 00:56:14.620 --> 00:56:16.720 Ralf Koller: oh. all that way. 484 00:56:21.680 --> 00:56:22.780 Benji Fisher: So if we put. 485 00:56:23.620 --> 00:56:28.080 Ralf Koller: and if you use our granted to this role that way, it implies that 486 00:56:29.720 --> 00:56:31.350 Ralf Koller: other rules could be. 487 00:56:31.730 --> 00:56:33.550 Ralf Koller: and it to the list. 488 00:56:34.110 --> 00:56:36.030 Benji Fisher: You mean other permissions, I think. 489 00:56:36.750 --> 00:56:38.469 Ralf Koller: yes, correct. Sorry. 490 00:56:39.380 --> 00:56:41.380 Benji Fisher: Okay. So you like this variant? 491 00:56:42.360 --> 00:56:43.160 Ralf Koller: Yes. 492 00:56:43.560 --> 00:56:44.220 Benji Fisher: okay. 493 00:56:47.490 --> 00:56:48.750 Benji Fisher: Anyone else? 494 00:56:55.120 --> 00:57:01.999 Quynh Pham: Yes. If we aim for short and simple. I like the this row has our permissions. 495 00:57:04.090 --> 00:57:06.809 Quynh Pham: But again, it's 496 00:57:07.460 --> 00:57:09.109 Quynh Pham: It didn't say much. 497 00:57:09.450 --> 00:57:10.160 And 498 00:57:14.210 --> 00:57:17.000 Benji Fisher: all right, Clin, what do you think about this alternative? 499 00:57:17.370 --> 00:57:21.850 Benji Fisher: All permissions are granted to this role again, putting this role at the end. 500 00:57:23.880 --> 00:57:25.899 Quynh Pham: Yeah, I like this one better. 501 00:57:26.120 --> 00:57:30.449 Quynh Pham: I have. We met 502 00:57:30.620 --> 00:57:31.380 Quynh Pham: the 503 00:57:31.490 --> 00:57:36.879 Quynh Pham: to this role as a little bit. We consistency we have on the top. 504 00:57:37.200 --> 00:57:39.219 Benji Fisher: Okay, Thomas. 505 00:57:39.850 --> 00:57:49.310 Thomas: I would shift it. I don't like the All all because then it matches what's under authenticated. And I do something like grants all permissions to this role 506 00:57:51.830 --> 00:57:54.110 Thomas: because you're starting authenticate with all 507 00:57:55.270 --> 00:57:57.389 Benji Fisher: all logged in users. 508 00:57:58.200 --> 00:58:03.539 Thomas: So I would say, grants all permissions to this role. 509 00:58:04.720 --> 00:58:05.890 Ralf Koller: even shorter. 510 00:58:09.470 --> 00:58:14.230 Benji Fisher: That's all permissions to this role. 511 00:58:17.840 --> 00:58:25.970 Thomas: What I like about grants as it does what extends does in my attempted sentence. It gives you 512 00:58:25.980 --> 00:58:33.719 Thomas: a verb change from how authenticated and anonymous are. So you see that it's granting these 513 00:58:33.770 --> 00:58:36.680 Thomas: versus because what I don't like is 514 00:58:36.690 --> 00:58:43.430 Thomas: under. I see 515 00:58:44.470 --> 00:58:49.479 Thomas: But one of the earlier ones was like, a user, like, I yeah, sorry 516 00:58:49.790 --> 00:58:50.890 Thomas: this works. 517 00:58:52.370 --> 00:58:57.480 Benji Fisher: I'm soberly, not putting a period on that, because it's 518 00:58:58.430 --> 00:59:00.249 Benji Fisher: it's not a 519 00:59:00.750 --> 00:59:04.080 Quynh Pham: There's no subject 520 00:59:08.030 --> 00:59:17.480 Thomas: grants a use are all permissions to this role or grants an authenticated user all permissions to this role which states specifically what it does. 521 00:59:17.710 --> 00:59:28.910 Thomas: You can't give it to anonymous. So we can safely say grants and authenticated. Well, grants are logged in. But I I like the idea of grants, and authenticated because it establishes the pattern 522 00:59:29.980 --> 00:59:35.419 Thomas: of modifying. Like all future roles, modify, authenticated 523 00:59:40.660 --> 00:59:41.640 Benji Fisher: Ralph. 524 00:59:42.960 --> 00:59:55.869 Ralf Koller: I'm on one hand, I agree that authenticated might be desirable, but still we introduced visitors for unauthenticated users 525 00:59:55.940 --> 01:00:01.079 Ralf Koller: in the beginning, and that way I'm not sure if it's necessary to use authenticated there. 526 01:00:01.180 --> 01:00:04.760 Ralf Koller: and it's shorter and just go with us. 527 01:00:04.970 --> 01:00:06.310 Ralf Koller: It might be enough. 528 01:00:08.300 --> 01:00:15.890 Benji Fisher: Yeah, I I also think that if you establish that pattern. Then we we've already said that authenticated users 529 01:00:16.170 --> 01:00:26.249 Benji Fisher: are all logged in users, and they have additional roles. If you then mention authenticated users here, you're establishing a pattern. Every other role is going to have to mention 530 01:00:26.330 --> 01:00:32.290 Benji Fisher: authenticated users. And and then we're in the boiler play problem. Too much repetitive text. 531 01:00:37.020 --> 01:00:41.930 Benji Fisher: instead of has all permissions. What if we just change that to grants is that? 532 01:00:44.910 --> 01:00:47.280 Benji Fisher: Does that suggest more that 533 01:00:47.780 --> 01:00:51.299 Benji Fisher: when permissions are added they will automatically be given. 534 01:00:52.340 --> 01:00:53.900 Thomas: Except for it. 535 01:00:54.200 --> 01:01:01.509 Thomas: We we're still stuck with the pattern of this role grants. Well, then, everything subsequent could be this role grants. 536 01:01:05.770 --> 01:01:07.070 Ralf Koller: And also 537 01:01:09.080 --> 01:01:13.280 Ralf Koller: it sounds like the role is giving you permissions. And 538 01:01:15.920 --> 01:01:17.340 Ralf Koller: I'm not sure if 539 01:01:17.390 --> 01:01:20.199 Benji Fisher: that's accurate. A role does give permissions 540 01:01:22.620 --> 01:01:29.060 Ralf Koller: cool. But still I'm still I'm front loading this role. I'm not a fan. 541 01:01:30.340 --> 01:01:35.969 Benji Fisher: Yeah. On. On the other hand, all permissions are granted to this role is is the passive voice. 542 01:01:37.180 --> 01:01:40.569 Ralf Koller: So I I agree that I'd rather 543 01:01:40.730 --> 01:01:47.689 Benji Fisher: front, load the all permissions, but we can think of a way to do it without the passive voice. I would be happier. 544 01:01:49.060 --> 01:01:53.150 Thomas: That's why, I like grants, a user, all permissions 545 01:02:00.020 --> 01:02:05.630 Benji Fisher: we need to choose one. Oh, and we are very close to the end of the hour. 546 01:02:06.930 --> 01:02:10.369 Benji Fisher: We are not going to have a chance to talk about any other issues. 547 01:02:10.650 --> 01:02:21.550 Benji Fisher: and we just can't see the consensus on this. 548 01:02:22.750 --> 01:02:26.830 Benji Fisher: I'm not sure that there's any option here that has 2 votes. 549 01:02:28.730 --> 01:02:34.679 Quynh Pham: can we slip on it and come back next? 550 01:02:37.980 --> 01:02:40.099 Benji Fisher: Yeah, we we can. 551 01:02:40.350 --> 01:02:44.799 Benji Fisher: We suggested that last week, and and Ralph and 552 01:02:46.430 --> 01:02:54.360 Benji Fisher: And Aaron made some comments on the Google Doc over the course of the week, or at least on the ninth and the tenth. 553 01:02:55.540 --> 01:03:02.819 Thomas: So my complaint about the bolded one is all I just don't like. 2 things starting with all. 554 01:03:03.890 --> 01:03:06.119 Thomas: Is there a way of? 555 01:03:06.220 --> 01:03:12.740 Thomas: Is there a synonym for all that we can put in place of all permissions. Just something. 556 01:03:13.460 --> 01:03:14.859 Ralf Koller: every permission. 557 01:03:17.180 --> 01:03:19.410 Thomas: every permission is granted to this role. 558 01:03:20.420 --> 01:03:21.380 Thomas: Sure. 559 01:03:38.030 --> 01:03:43.280 Benji Fisher: so I think we'll we'll just have to leave it there. 560 01:03:45.920 --> 01:03:48.090 Benji Fisher: I was hoping we we could 561 01:03:49.040 --> 01:03:54.100 Benji Fisher: come up with something to agree on, but I guess it's just not going to happen, so 562 01:03:54.280 --> 01:03:58.180 Benji Fisher: we'll try to work this out and 563 01:03:58.540 --> 01:04:01.049 Benji Fisher: not spend another whole meeting on it. 564 01:04:01.570 --> 01:04:09.020 Benji Fisher: with Oh, let me just briefly say, what did 565 01:04:09.470 --> 01:04:11.240 Benji Fisher: Christina give us. 566 01:04:11.610 --> 01:04:22.319 Benji Fisher: So this is issue 3, 3, 6, 6, 9, 8, 6, the card sorting survey. 567 01:04:22.970 --> 01:04:29.210 Benji Fisher: and you might want to have a look at this 568 01:04:30.210 --> 01:04:34.990 Benji Fisher: some time over the next 2 days, which 569 01:04:35.530 --> 01:04:38.280 Benji Fisher: is just to help decide on 570 01:04:38.760 --> 01:04:41.769 Benji Fisher: the menu structure for the admin toolbar. 571 01:04:42.340 --> 01:04:45.760 Benji Fisher: And not only do it yourself, but also 572 01:04:46.000 --> 01:04:55.279 Benji Fisher: and encourage other people at your your company or your people user groups to to to fill out the survey. 573 01:04:56.750 --> 01:05:02.819 Quynh Pham: And it's the end of the hour. Thank you all 574 01:05:02.920 --> 01:05:04.020 Benji Fisher: great, thank you. 575 01:05:06.770 --> 01:05:18.190 Benji Fisher: And and maybe next week Christina Chimias will be able to join us, and we can talk about about the admin menu and 576 01:05:19.140 --> 01:05:23.909 Benji Fisher: and and the the block layout that we were trying to move under appearance. 577 01:05:29.400 --> 01:05:30.100 Okay. 578 01:05:31.240 --> 01:05:32.710 Benji Fisher: until next week. Bye. 579 01:05:32.970 --> 01:05:36.400 Thomas: a nice week. Thank you. Bye, bye.