WEBVTT 91 00:09:48.770 --> 00:09:56.790 Benji Fisher: welcome. This is the drupal usability meeting for June thirtieth, 2,023. I'm Benjy Fisher, sharing my screen and moderating. 92 00:09:56.940 --> 00:10:02.080 Benji Fisher: and also present our Ericribino Ralph Kohler and Thomas. 93 00:10:02.750 --> 00:10:09.559 Benji Fisher: Thank you for coming. actually, before we 94 00:10:09.710 --> 00:10:15.349 Benji Fisher: start looking for an issue, let me just point out something I have here. 95 00:10:15.700 --> 00:10:18.400 Benji Fisher: the current 96 00:10:18.670 --> 00:10:21.299 Benji Fisher: of 11 point X branch. 97 00:10:21.780 --> 00:10:28.160 Benji Fisher: change the branching policy a month or 2 ago. So instead of 98 00:10:28.380 --> 00:10:37.900 Benji Fisher: the 10.2 point X branch, we're working on the 11 point X branch. This is stuff that will go into 10.2, though. and 99 00:10:38.320 --> 00:10:43.319 Benji Fisher: one thing I would like to point out is that the help pages 100 00:10:43.560 --> 00:10:46.540 Benji Fisher: with. I guess this is you, mommy 101 00:10:47.120 --> 00:10:51.380 Benji Fisher: profile, as as you can see from the toolbar 102 00:10:51.590 --> 00:11:06.309 Benji Fisher: But I I think you'll get the same thing with the standard profile. you now have the topics on the main health page. that used to be there. Only if you enabled the experimental help topics, module 103 00:11:07.090 --> 00:11:21.699 Benji Fisher: But that module has now served its purpose. It is just a stub. and all of the functionality from the help topics module was moved into the help module. 104 00:11:22.550 --> 00:11:31.520 Benji Fisher: So you have this getting started section, you to configure your website with links to the main admin page 105 00:11:31.860 --> 00:11:34.720 Benji Fisher: and the main config page. 106 00:11:35.140 --> 00:11:39.680 Benji Fisher: links to the modules or extend page. 107 00:11:40.340 --> 00:11:43.810 Benji Fisher: Customize your design, go to the appearance page 108 00:11:44.730 --> 00:11:50.629 Benji Fisher: and add new content. And then this sort of topic based. 109 00:11:51.220 --> 00:11:59.989 Benji Fisher: help! we. We still have the old 110 00:12:00.750 --> 00:12:07.439 Benji Fisher: help pages one for each module. and some of them have links to additional pages. 111 00:12:07.890 --> 00:12:14.410 Benji Fisher: I think that's going to be deprecated. but that that hasn't happened yet. 112 00:12:15.100 --> 00:12:20.629 Benji Fisher: but at any rate, it's below these, this new topic based organization. 113 00:12:20.900 --> 00:12:33.690 Benji Fisher: So that's a a a huge milestone. that I know. The Documentation Maintainers have been working on that for 114 00:12:33.760 --> 00:12:35.080 Benji Fisher: years now. 115 00:12:35.190 --> 00:12:43.460 Benji Fisher: and it's I'm I'm kind of glad to see it finally. by finally get to this stage. 116 00:12:44.830 --> 00:12:49.059 Benji Fisher: So that's something to look forward to in 1110.2. 117 00:12:50.300 --> 00:12:53.010 Benji Fisher: any questions or comments about that. 118 00:12:58.570 --> 00:13:13.960 Benji Fisher: seeing none. So let's start looking for issues. Here's the issue for today's meeting. It's 3, 3, 6, 8, 8, 3, 2 I don't see any requests. 119 00:13:14.760 --> 00:13:18.469 Benji Fisher: the issue for the previous meeting. 120 00:13:19.250 --> 00:13:24.360 Benji Fisher: Let me just reload it in case anyone has added anything to it. 121 00:13:24.630 --> 00:13:37.840 Benji Fisher: this lists a bunch of things we could look at. Anything 122 00:13:38.960 --> 00:13:41.079 Benji Fisher: here that strikes your fancy. 123 00:13:54.300 --> 00:13:58.169 Benji Fisher: I guess the other thing to check is that 124 00:13:59.110 --> 00:14:04.400 Benji Fisher: Stephen Musgrave. 125 00:14:06.250 --> 00:14:11.230 Benji Fisher: who heads the the review. Queue initiative has suggested one. 126 00:14:15.030 --> 00:14:17.399 So let's have a look at this. 127 00:14:26.050 --> 00:14:30.800 Benji Fisher: This is issue 2, 6, 1, 9, 3, 2, 8 128 00:14:33.040 --> 00:14:39.570 Benji Fisher: a required Boolean Field behaves differently, depending on the Widget 129 00:14:41.370 --> 00:14:48.060 Benji Fisher: and it says that if a Boolean field is set to required behavior is different, depending on the widget. 130 00:14:48.630 --> 00:14:58.570 Benji Fisher: If there is a single check box the check box is shown is required, and the user must enter the on value with the radios. Widget. 131 00:14:58.820 --> 00:15:05.120 Benji Fisher: A set of on off radio is shown. User must have either the on or the off. 132 00:15:05.550 --> 00:15:09.389 Benji Fisher: I'm sorry the user must enter either the on or the off value. 133 00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:17.989 Benji Fisher: so let's see if I can see what this is talking about. 134 00:15:19.290 --> 00:15:21.200 Benji Fisher: just 135 00:15:23.230 --> 00:15:25.809 Benji Fisher: who got this one, this one 136 00:15:28.050 --> 00:15:30.260 Benji Fisher: move this tab to the end. 137 00:15:30.690 --> 00:15:37.270 Benji Fisher: so let's go to some content type. 138 00:15:41.430 --> 00:15:50.410 Benji Fisher: very basic page. And let's add to Boolean fields. 139 00:16:04.360 --> 00:16:06.419 Benji Fisher: Yes, I know 140 00:16:11.080 --> 00:16:14.270 Benji Fisher: one value same field settings. 141 00:16:17.090 --> 00:16:18.780 Benji Fisher: And 142 00:16:19.830 --> 00:16:24.680 Benji Fisher: if bullying field is set to required. So I think we want to 143 00:16:25.710 --> 00:16:27.170 Benji Fisher: check that off 144 00:16:28.160 --> 00:16:33.120 Benji Fisher: and just to match 145 00:16:37.810 --> 00:16:42.049 Benji Fisher: the label I gave the field. Let's change those labels 146 00:16:42.380 --> 00:16:44.520 Benji Fisher: and save settings. 147 00:16:46.020 --> 00:16:48.310 Benji Fisher: and then let's add another field. 148 00:16:49.520 --> 00:16:51.090 Benji Fisher: Also Boolean 149 00:16:53.690 --> 00:16:55.090 Benji Fisher: on or off 150 00:16:58.250 --> 00:16:59.820 Benji Fisher: one value. 151 00:17:00.620 --> 00:17:02.890 Benji Fisher: Also make it required. 152 00:17:04.260 --> 00:17:06.569 Benji Fisher: Keep the on off labels. 153 00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:12.339 Benji Fisher: and then go to manage, form, display. 154 00:17:14.520 --> 00:17:16.210 Benji Fisher: and 155 00:17:17.550 --> 00:17:22.960 Benji Fisher: keep the single on off check box for yes or no. but use 156 00:17:23.079 --> 00:17:25.470 Benji Fisher: check boxes or radio buttons 157 00:17:25.839 --> 00:17:27.409 Benji Fisher: for on or off. 158 00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:35.620 Benji Fisher: Also, let me just have a look. I'm not sure what these settings are. 159 00:17:36.170 --> 00:17:40.630 Benji Fisher: whether to use the field label. And yeah, I do want to use that. 160 00:17:41.290 --> 00:17:43.649 Benji Fisher: So now let's 161 00:17:45.770 --> 00:17:47.800 Benji Fisher: add her edit. 162 00:17:48.980 --> 00:17:53.829 Benji Fisher: or probably some some to add a new one. That was a basic page. Right? 163 00:17:59.500 --> 00:18:06.939 Benji Fisher: Okay. So here. This is required about both fields are required. They're both Boolean 164 00:18:07.520 --> 00:18:13.760 Benji Fisher: and then what's supposed to be the difference? 165 00:18:22.480 --> 00:18:23.780 Benji Fisher: So 166 00:18:27.290 --> 00:18:39.880 Benji Fisher: single checks box, which at the checks box is shown is required. So you're not really given a choice. Let's see if that's true. if I try to save. 167 00:18:41.660 --> 00:18:43.270 Benji Fisher: Oh. oh. 168 00:18:45.970 --> 00:18:47.730 Benji Fisher: has Page 169 00:18:47.890 --> 00:18:49.180 Benji Fisher: Boolean's. 170 00:18:56.530 --> 00:19:02.570 Benji Fisher: Please check this box if you want to proceed. It's like. cannot 171 00:19:04.110 --> 00:19:10.800 Benji Fisher: save the page without checking the box. So so the issue that does seem to be correct 172 00:19:12.430 --> 00:19:14.319 Benji Fisher: there. There is no way 173 00:19:16.550 --> 00:19:20.310 Benji Fisher: to set the Boolean off. 174 00:19:21.300 --> 00:19:23.970 Benji Fisher: If I use the check box which it 175 00:19:26.130 --> 00:19:28.260 Benji Fisher: or else you're unmuted, you want to say something 176 00:19:30.520 --> 00:19:31.810 Benji Fisher: or anyone else. 177 00:19:32.190 --> 00:19:39.430 Ralf Koller: You already did what I wanted to suggest to go back in and try to save again. Contract. Thank you. 178 00:19:40.180 --> 00:19:41.279 Benji Fisher: Promise. Go ahead. 179 00:19:42.690 --> 00:19:48.629 Thomas: This may not be a popular opinion, but to my mind that means it's working as intended. 180 00:19:48.990 --> 00:19:53.360 Thomas: with a radio button. It is 181 00:19:53.510 --> 00:20:02.829 Thomas: not a in a radio button has to have a state. So if you're requiring it, then it's going to have a state. 182 00:20:02.920 --> 00:20:06.660 Thomas: and I think of it in terms of when I was working with 183 00:20:06.710 --> 00:20:15.410 Thomas: salesforce, for instance, when I was working with other systems, and you added a Boolean to something 184 00:20:15.500 --> 00:20:21.460 Thomas: in in that instance it it automatically had. Whatever the starting state was, you didn't get a choice 185 00:20:21.740 --> 00:20:37.099 Thomas: in that starting state. If it was off, then it would have started with off, and it would auto populate. So in the second instance, to me, that's working as intended in the first instance, with the check box. 186 00:20:37.180 --> 00:20:41.410 Thomas: I don't know why a check box would be required. 187 00:20:42.300 --> 00:20:47.110 Thomas: because in my mind the a check box 188 00:20:47.200 --> 00:20:48.929 Thomas: is always optional. 189 00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:59.940 Thomas: so it's working as intended because you shouldn't. I don't think drupal has the capacity to not allow a widget type to be not required. 190 00:21:02.570 --> 00:21:18.109 Thomas: So in the second instance, in the radio button that's working as intended. If it has to have a value because it's required, it has to have a value, and the first one because it can only have a value. It only has a value when a check box is there. 191 00:21:18.300 --> 00:21:22.689 Thomas: So we can say that we want to change how that works. 192 00:21:24.570 --> 00:21:28.839 Thomas: Oh, there's an in-depth comment Should we read that, Ralph? 193 00:21:31.220 --> 00:21:35.849 Ralf Koller: No, it's just an additional comment. It's not related to what you 194 00:21:35.930 --> 00:21:40.740 Ralf Koller: are explaining right now. It just wanted to edit and point to it, because 195 00:21:41.990 --> 00:21:51.100 Thomas: so so I guess to answer the the issue that was brought up. I wouldn't put both of these things in the same bucket. 196 00:21:51.140 --> 00:21:58.719 Thomas: because to me one is working as intended and the other is not, is working as intended, but doesn't make logical sense. 197 00:21:59.130 --> 00:22:05.070 Thomas: in which case you could say that if the check box is required. 198 00:22:05.230 --> 00:22:08.319 Thomas: then, when it is unchecked. 199 00:22:08.360 --> 00:22:11.900 Thomas: it puts into the database a value of no. 200 00:22:11.930 --> 00:22:27.860 Thomas: but it. That would, there would be no way to see that. And if someone after the fact made the field no longer required. then you'd end up with 3 States, you'd have null, yes or no, which by definition means the field is no longer Boolean. 201 00:22:29.700 --> 00:22:33.040 Thomas: because bullion gives you only 2 values. 202 00:22:33.660 --> 00:22:42.839 Thomas: so again it it it's just it seems like a weird edge case with the check box and the radio button is working as intended. 203 00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:56.400 Benji Fisher: Okay, so certainly the radio button works as intended. There's there's no problem there. And 204 00:22:56.460 --> 00:22:58.409 Benji Fisher: with the check box 205 00:22:59.060 --> 00:23:07.509 Benji Fisher: there's no way to save the page without first checking the box. 206 00:23:07.690 --> 00:23:12.309 Benji Fisher: so there's no way to save the page with a value of no 207 00:23:12.930 --> 00:23:26.650 Benji Fisher: and and sort of behind the scenes. e! Even a Boolean, in a sense has 3 options. 208 00:23:26.740 --> 00:23:36.449 Benji Fisher: one is null, that there. There is no entry in the in the database table for this node and this field 209 00:23:37.110 --> 00:23:50.390 Benji Fisher: And and then the 2 options that that are are really intended that there is a value in in the database table for this field in this node, and it's either 0 or one 210 00:23:50.490 --> 00:23:51.880 Benji Fisher: Go ahead, Thomas. 211 00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:54.519 Thomas: I disagree like 212 00:23:54.560 --> 00:23:58.570 Thomas: if it's required. That means null is not a valid. 213 00:23:58.780 --> 00:24:12.780 Thomas: The valid value to have it can be a legacy value. So if a field were changed from not required to required, it is possible that the database would have a null, but then I wouldn't want the form to be saved. That's right. 214 00:24:13.070 --> 00:24:25.800 Thomas: So The first one would be. The problematic behavior is that with that widget enabled it should be saving no automatically to the database on, save. 215 00:24:26.830 --> 00:24:33.490 Thomas: But I don't know like that may require a significant coding, because then it's treating these as 2 different booleans. 216 00:24:35.590 --> 00:24:39.099 Benji Fisher: Yeah, the widget is certainly restrict restricting 217 00:24:39.120 --> 00:24:44.079 Benji Fisher: whether or not we have the option of saving 0 to the database. Go ahead, Ralph. 218 00:24:45.630 --> 00:24:53.830 Ralf Koller: I wonder if it would make sense if you make a Boolean field required 219 00:24:54.560 --> 00:25:01.430 Ralf Koller: to make the set default value required as well, implicitly, because that way 220 00:25:01.640 --> 00:25:02.490 Ralf Koller: you 221 00:25:03.470 --> 00:25:14.250 Ralf Koller: would avoid those issues, for example. set forward value for the for the radio button. So you have the on or off switches and the 3 options 222 00:25:14.510 --> 00:25:26.160 Ralf Koller: and a off and on available. And for the others, the yes and no. In that way. you would avoid those edge cases. 223 00:25:26.190 --> 00:25:27.250 Ralf Koller: Basically. 224 00:25:28.140 --> 00:25:29.600 Benji Fisher: Okay, let me 225 00:25:31.780 --> 00:25:45.819 Benji Fisher: let me do something here. Manage fields instead of calling it yes or no. I'm going to change the label to. I affirm 226 00:25:46.740 --> 00:25:50.560 Benji Fisher: that this is my original work. 227 00:25:54.030 --> 00:25:55.570 Benji Fisher: No plagiarism 228 00:26:00.630 --> 00:26:05.150 Benji Fisher: and no help from 229 00:26:08.080 --> 00:26:11.140 Benji Fisher: from Chat Gpt 230 00:26:14.190 --> 00:26:20.200 Benji Fisher: make it a required field. So my point is that there is a use case 231 00:26:22.370 --> 00:26:26.080 Benji Fisher: for not allowing someone to proceed 232 00:26:26.130 --> 00:26:29.290 Benji Fisher: unless they check the box. 233 00:26:29.580 --> 00:26:37.120 Benji Fisher: So actually, a pretty common use case. okay, Thomas, go ahead. 234 00:26:38.200 --> 00:26:52.919 Thomas: That's really interesting. Like, I I hadn't thought of that. It's 2 different checkbox can situations, because the other one I was thinking so. I agree with you. That is a valid use case that works the way this is. 235 00:26:53.170 --> 00:26:58.220 Thomas: I I agree also with Ralph. 236 00:26:58.520 --> 00:27:01.480 Thomas: that. 237 00:27:02.460 --> 00:27:04.040 Thomas: a value like 238 00:27:04.410 --> 00:27:10.440 Thomas: I don't. I don't know the right choice, because I also think a value should be savable. So I feel as if 239 00:27:10.570 --> 00:27:13.350 Thomas: for the state that you're talking about. 240 00:27:13.400 --> 00:27:24.359 Thomas: Benji, that should be a toggleable state within the widget. So within the widget we should be able to determine. Is this a required required field? 241 00:27:24.690 --> 00:27:33.919 Thomas: Which is this this condition, or is this a required field in which we want it to initially be off or no. 242 00:27:35.670 --> 00:27:49.269 Thomas: and then turn on when someone checks it so like required as a the little asterisk at the end. To me means that the form user should be interacting with this field 243 00:27:49.420 --> 00:28:02.279 Thomas: to make the save button active to make it possible to save. However, there are 2 different use cases, as you pointed out, or 2 different widgets. One is a widget that is intended to 244 00:28:02.350 --> 00:28:04.429 Thomas: force someone 245 00:28:04.450 --> 00:28:21.700 Thomas: to. Basically, it's the legal use. It's it's someone is accepting the contract, the we do it all the time. You can't go on the save buttons not available until you've pressed the check box, and then a voila! You can move forward so 246 00:28:21.790 --> 00:28:45.670 Thomas: it sounds almost like we have 3 bullions and 2 of them are combined with poor documentation around them. In the former the check box, and in the latter it's the use case where we need to. If it's required. If required, then a value must be provided for the starting value, like, what's the starting state when the form is filled. 247 00:28:51.280 --> 00:28:52.809 Benji Fisher: Ralph, go ahead. 248 00:28:53.080 --> 00:28:54.930 Ralf Koller: just 249 00:28:55.890 --> 00:28:56.780 Ralf Koller: one 250 00:28:57.810 --> 00:29:01.880 Ralf Koller: question. I agree with Thomas. But 251 00:29:02.300 --> 00:29:06.860 Ralf Koller: I one the one other detail. if you go into the 252 00:29:08.370 --> 00:29:12.040 Ralf Koller: field settings, and if you 253 00:29:12.070 --> 00:29:21.449 Ralf Koller: go to the set default value for the radio buttons, you have the 3 radio buttons not not available often on. So 254 00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:24.419 Benji Fisher: where? Where do you want me to go? 255 00:29:25.090 --> 00:29:33.720 Ralf Koller: on, in, on, or on, or off the at the bottom, for example, that is the poorly one, I suppose, into edit. Yeah. 256 00:29:34.550 --> 00:29:39.480 Benji Fisher: this is the the radio buttons. 257 00:29:41.980 --> 00:29:43.639 Ralf Koller: Then you see the 258 00:29:44.090 --> 00:29:46.350 Ralf Koller: 3 button options 259 00:29:46.840 --> 00:29:48.950 Ralf Koller: not available, off and on. 260 00:29:49.060 --> 00:29:57.950 Ralf Koller: But if you, taking consideration, the example you've brought up. And she right before, with the confirmation that you haven't 261 00:29:58.730 --> 00:30:04.870 Ralf Koller: used any external help. also no chat Gpt. And the option 262 00:30:06.240 --> 00:30:14.329 Ralf Koller: that's basically the same. The not available option is basically the same in in check boxes as well. 263 00:30:15.700 --> 00:30:22.020 Ralf Koller: You have the not set, the set and the not available one. It's 264 00:30:25.850 --> 00:30:29.910 Ralf Koller: that way. It's not an either, or as well there. 265 00:30:39.600 --> 00:30:47.490 Benji Fisher: Well, I can make the default value checked rather than unchecked. And then, when I 266 00:30:48.600 --> 00:30:50.940 Benji Fisher: add yet another. 267 00:30:52.120 --> 00:30:54.510 Ralf Koller: technically speaking, is if you. 268 00:30:54.700 --> 00:30:59.390 Ralf Koller: the set as default check box for that 269 00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:04.309 Ralf Koller: check box fields is basically the An A option 270 00:31:06.320 --> 00:31:07.620 Ralf Koller: for radio buttons 271 00:31:10.290 --> 00:31:11.430 Ralf Koller: functionally 272 00:31:12.220 --> 00:31:15.360 Ralf Koller: and just basically the same effect like you have for the radio button. 273 00:31:16.040 --> 00:31:18.510 Benji Fisher: I I I think the default is 274 00:31:20.410 --> 00:31:23.540 Benji Fisher: is the 0 option 275 00:31:24.080 --> 00:31:27.000 Ralf Koller: that that I meant with the ma, you know. 276 00:31:32.280 --> 00:31:34.720 Benji Fisher: Thomas. 277 00:31:35.300 --> 00:31:42.699 Thomas: I guess what I was trying to to say earlier is with a required field null or na 278 00:31:42.820 --> 00:31:44.490 Thomas: should not be an option 279 00:31:44.700 --> 00:31:49.790 Thomas: by definition. You can't save to the database for a boolean 280 00:31:50.730 --> 00:31:54.099 Thomas: something that is n. A. Or no. 281 00:31:55.920 --> 00:31:57.290 Thomas: if it's required. 282 00:31:57.360 --> 00:32:00.160 Thomas: required means that you have to have 283 00:32:00.170 --> 00:32:09.409 Thomas: a value. because I've seen a lot of bad data in other systems when you don't enforce that 284 00:32:11.170 --> 00:32:31.990 Thomas: and that's that's explicit, not implicit. When you require the field, you're explicitly stating with the radio, for instance, it must be off, or it must be on. And the instance where we are looking at the. I affirm that my original work no plagiarism, no help. We are explicitly stating that when you check this you're making that assertion. 285 00:32:32.040 --> 00:32:37.320 Thomas: and that you cannot move on in this instance without making that assertion. 286 00:32:38.930 --> 00:32:51.380 Thomas: And then, the third use case being that it was offer on. You have to answer with the check box, it would, in my mind, have a required field. But again, n. A. Or null 287 00:32:51.510 --> 00:32:53.289 Thomas: is not a value. 288 00:32:53.490 --> 00:33:03.550 Thomas: it's intended to not be a value, and you can't search or work with data that is null in a way like you. No means. You have no information. 289 00:33:03.890 --> 00:33:07.460 Thomas: so it's not fitting the required state. 290 00:33:08.610 --> 00:33:13.909 Benji Fisher: Oh, okay. So I I would say that it is certainly an inconsistency 291 00:33:14.260 --> 00:33:17.729 Benji Fisher: that if you choose the checkbox budget. 292 00:33:18.100 --> 00:33:22.339 Benji Fisher: then people do not have the option. 293 00:33:22.770 --> 00:33:25.690 Benji Fisher: saving 294 00:33:27.530 --> 00:33:31.500 Benji Fisher: sa saving a a false value. 295 00:33:32.200 --> 00:33:36.850 Benji Fisher: it it. It's an inconsistency, but it's I 296 00:33:36.910 --> 00:33:40.320 Benji Fisher: a useful option to have. It's one that 297 00:33:41.100 --> 00:33:50.970 Benji Fisher: I think is commonly used for for this sort of thing. I'm I'm demonstrating here. I think we should have a look at the comments already on the issue. 298 00:33:51.720 --> 00:34:01.769 Benji Fisher: so the used case. I want to add a Boolean based on an entity. I allow the form which to be configurable. 299 00:34:01.970 --> 00:34:06.140 Benji Fisher: The field should always have value. So I make it required. Okay? 300 00:34:06.860 --> 00:34:11.380 Benji Fisher: And the problem, let's say, you choose the radios which it? Yeah, yes, guys. 301 00:34:16.210 --> 00:34:20.329 Benji Fisher: okay. And the problem. He points out the inconsistency. 302 00:34:20.870 --> 00:34:30.210 Benji Fisher: Maybe if I list the requirements on the field, things will be better now. The check box which it works is expected. 303 00:34:30.989 --> 00:34:34.409 Benji Fisher: but the radio, which it has 3 options. 304 00:34:37.820 --> 00:34:41.639 Benji Fisher: So the proposed resolution is to add Widget setting 305 00:34:45.290 --> 00:34:55.900 Benji Fisher: so that the check box can optionally be marked required. If the respect field is march is required. If this setting is off, you are not forced to check it 306 00:34:57.050 --> 00:35:02.770 Benji Fisher: off is a valid state as long as the value being used as an actual, no value. 307 00:35:04.350 --> 00:35:13.600 Benji Fisher: a new setting default, so that by default check boxes will not be marked as required. This is a change to the previous behavior 308 00:35:14.450 --> 00:35:22.779 Benji Fisher: for all existing required Boolean fields. They're using the check boxes, Widget. We make the setting true to match the previous behavior. 309 00:35:27.570 --> 00:35:34.410 Benji Fisher: and Ralph suggested that we look at comment number 70 310 00:35:51.180 --> 00:35:53.079 Benji Fisher: regarding the comments. 311 00:35:55.570 --> 00:36:04.730 Benji Fisher: You can never unsett a value, a check box. That's something conserved. I try to explain the situation and comment directly. Seating 312 00:36:28.040 --> 00:36:31.950 Benji Fisher: this is the problem is that both scenarios have valid use cases. 313 00:36:36.050 --> 00:36:44.679 Benji Fisher: First. One is, for example, do you want to receive our Newsletter, where it totally makes a difference whether someone is explicitly said no or not, yet made a choice. 314 00:36:44.920 --> 00:36:56.170 Benji Fisher: The second is, do you agree to the terms of service where that distinction is meaningless, and the required aspect means the S field is required. So that's very similar 315 00:36:56.280 --> 00:37:00.509 Benji Fisher: to The example I was using. Go ahead, Thomas. 316 00:37:01.740 --> 00:37:05.200 Thomas: so I'm thinking about this 317 00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:21.239 Thomas: and reading what's wrote here. It sounds like this explicitly writes out, both the full issue description that you've just read through as well as what we've read through in this issue thus far. gets at all the points that I've been trying to make 318 00:37:21.390 --> 00:37:29.070 Thomas: The important thing here for me is I'm questioning whether or not 319 00:37:32.610 --> 00:37:35.100 Thomas: from a data perspective. 320 00:37:35.740 --> 00:37:36.590 Thomas: if 321 00:37:36.730 --> 00:37:47.220 Thomas: the field is required. So the example that we give here is not the terms of service, but the. Do you want our newsletter? 322 00:37:47.940 --> 00:38:03.280 Thomas: Do you want to receive our newsletter. you are not as a form filler, as you, as a person interacting with the form. You're never saying no, and you may not be aware that you're saying no, it's the opt-in versus opt out. 323 00:38:03.760 --> 00:38:06.130 Thomas: so 324 00:38:06.440 --> 00:38:29.149 Thomas: I don't know if this used case is a valid use case is what I'm trying to get at the. Do you want to receive our newsletter? That would be a radio button used case for a Boolean where you are letting the form user know that they're choosing between yes or no, we in, we assume or infer that the users, aware that they are declining to get the newsletter. 325 00:38:29.300 --> 00:38:47.239 Thomas: but if they've read over it and missed, seeing that they may not know that they are now making a decision, that they are opting out by not interacting with that field. So to me, the idea of it being a required field, it isn't a required field in that instance, because the user is not 326 00:38:47.240 --> 00:39:01.700 Thomas: required to think about and explicitly state? No, they are implicitly stating no, which makes it an unrequired field. So, by virtue of making the checkbox bullion required 327 00:39:02.330 --> 00:39:11.829 Thomas: that to me means that the user must think about and interact with that particular field line. And that's the I guess 328 00:39:11.890 --> 00:39:13.260 Thomas: why 329 00:39:13.580 --> 00:39:33.980 Thomas: I see the use in having the 2 different use cases for checkbox. But it would be a definition difference between the check box and the radio button, because the radio button makes explicit the data and the user chooses between 2 data points or 2 values for that field. And then the former one. 330 00:39:34.130 --> 00:39:43.969 Thomas: if it's it's not acting as required. And so I I guess that comes down to what does required mean within the context of fields for a drupal node. 331 00:39:48.240 --> 00:39:55.509 Benji Fisher: Yeah. And I guess there are 2 meanings of required. One is at the database level 332 00:39:55.650 --> 00:39:59.150 Benji Fisher: that we're we're not going to 333 00:39:59.880 --> 00:40:01.340 Benji Fisher: allow 334 00:40:02.470 --> 00:40:06.180 Benji Fisher: saving our a record without putting a value into it. 335 00:40:06.450 --> 00:40:09.769 Benji Fisher: And the other is at the form level 336 00:40:09.960 --> 00:40:15.720 Benji Fisher: where the the widget is marked required. And I think that's sort of the root of this 337 00:40:16.530 --> 00:40:26.170 Benji Fisher: issue I'm leaning towards won't fix because we we have a valid use case for the current behavior. It's something that a lot of people have used. 338 00:40:26.280 --> 00:40:37.089 Benji Fisher: and I don't see no one is forcing you to use the check box. If that's not the behavior you you want, then don't use the checkbox. Use the radio button. Go ahead, Ralph. 339 00:40:40.140 --> 00:40:45.860 Ralf Koller: Just one question for from a non-technical perspective 340 00:40:48.860 --> 00:40:53.429 Ralf Koller: on the database level. Is it okay? Or desire to have a 341 00:40:53.900 --> 00:40:57.939 Ralf Koller: non-value for a for a field. 342 00:40:59.850 --> 00:41:01.000 Thomas: a meaning 343 00:41:01.620 --> 00:41:16.230 Thomas: at all? Or should they always be a value 344 00:41:17.200 --> 00:41:20.560 Thomas: field state to have in the database? 345 00:41:21.430 --> 00:41:25.300 Thomas: But if a field is required that means you want some data 346 00:41:25.440 --> 00:41:33.840 Thomas: there, and that it it it comes down to like null explicitly means you have no information about a field. 347 00:41:34.240 --> 00:41:39.159 Thomas: and if you have no information about a field that is the opposite of being required. 348 00:41:39.830 --> 00:41:44.690 Thomas: because you couldn't you? You could assume anything about it it 349 00:41:44.980 --> 00:41:55.629 Thomas: in in when you're doing data analysis, you can assume anything you want. Not correctly. But you'll you will assume anything you want about a null field, because no means no. 350 00:41:55.640 --> 00:42:00.059 whereas no and yes have well-defined meetings. 351 00:42:01.040 --> 00:42:02.730 Ralf Koller: But then. 352 00:42:03.750 --> 00:42:05.519 Ralf Koller: then I don't understand it. 353 00:42:06.160 --> 00:42:08.579 Ralf Koller: Then, for example, if you have 354 00:42:08.850 --> 00:42:14.460 Ralf Koller: the case of and not required field, for example, for check boxes. 355 00:42:14.850 --> 00:42:20.759 Ralf Koller: Then how do we just take a wish? If I'm not checked? Check box is now 356 00:42:21.490 --> 00:42:22.860 Ralf Koller: or no. 357 00:42:25.850 --> 00:42:35.119 Thomas: Well, that's like an unchecked check box that is not required. If it's null, it means that a person hasn't interacted with it. 358 00:42:36.030 --> 00:42:41.550 Thomas: But, Thomas, if if you if you've saved a node 359 00:42:42.380 --> 00:42:45.030 Benji Fisher: and you've 360 00:42:45.430 --> 00:42:53.339 Benji Fisher: and maybe assume it wasn't required to are allowed to say that without a choice it would look the same 361 00:42:53.740 --> 00:42:58.419 Benji Fisher: if the node was saved with a null value or with 362 00:42:59.270 --> 00:43:02.110 Thomas: no, I I I agree. It's 363 00:43:02.540 --> 00:43:05.650 Thomas: the issue is that with 364 00:43:05.970 --> 00:43:10.770 Thomas: the radio button. you can visibly show 3 States 365 00:43:12.110 --> 00:43:23.250 Thomas: because you can show a.in off a dot, and on or in neither. With the checkbox there is no visual data. There is no data. 366 00:43:23.330 --> 00:43:25.180 Thomas: communicated. 367 00:43:25.460 --> 00:43:26.120 Ralf Koller: Yep. 368 00:43:27.210 --> 00:43:40.429 Thomas: so you can't tell visually with a check box ever whether it's required or not. You can't tell when the null state is. That's right. You can't distinguish between null and off 369 00:43:40.970 --> 00:43:45.840 Thomas: And so it's a behavioral distinction between the 2. 370 00:43:46.200 --> 00:43:49.099 Thomas: I just don't like. 371 00:43:49.750 --> 00:43:59.229 Thomas: I'm trying to think through the use cases. And again, like it, it comes down to from a a form perspective. When a a widget is required 372 00:43:59.870 --> 00:44:06.819 Thomas: to me. That means that you're acquiring interaction on the part of the form filler 373 00:44:06.910 --> 00:44:11.070 Thomas: or the inner the user interacting with the form 374 00:44:12.330 --> 00:44:18.599 Thomas: and that has a direct consequence of it means, then, that 375 00:44:18.690 --> 00:44:20.100 Thomas: a value 376 00:44:20.230 --> 00:44:23.870 Thomas: is saved to the database field. 377 00:44:27.690 --> 00:44:33.819 Benji Fisher: So so let's see what specifically they're asking for in terms of usability. 378 00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:43.230 Benji Fisher: Someone must have added, the needs usability review tag! Why. 379 00:44:52.980 --> 00:44:56.310 Benji Fisher: it's awfully annoying when you search for something on the page, and 380 00:44:57.810 --> 00:45:00.570 Benji Fisher: then it's invisible. But but there! 381 00:45:01.350 --> 00:45:06.980 Ralf Koller: Quite one edited in comment, number 63. 382 00:45:07.120 --> 00:45:09.659 Benji Fisher: Yeah, I just got there. 383 00:45:09.890 --> 00:45:15.059 Benji Fisher: I did some testing with the way it's touch. It appears to work as intended. I can 384 00:45:15.700 --> 00:45:19.790 Benji Fisher: find confusing cooling field mark required will not be displayed 385 00:45:20.370 --> 00:45:24.289 Benji Fisher: as required. Less than the widget setting is also checked. 386 00:45:30.640 --> 00:45:32.860 Benji Fisher: so that's 387 00:45:35.130 --> 00:45:36.880 Benji Fisher: and and 388 00:45:44.420 --> 00:45:45.789 and as well. 389 00:46:08.440 --> 00:46:10.020 Benji Fisher: So I I guess 390 00:46:11.680 --> 00:46:23.100 Benji Fisher: My inclination is to market is don't fix. But maybe I'm going outside the scope of the Usability Review 391 00:46:23.340 --> 00:46:24.740 Benji Fisher: when I say that 392 00:46:25.150 --> 00:46:32.879 Benji Fisher: so maybe we should limit ourselves to If we. If we do 393 00:46:33.160 --> 00:46:39.500 Benji Fisher: fix the issue, then do we approve of of the usability of the update version? 394 00:46:39.630 --> 00:46:43.309 Benji Fisher: who raised his hand first. 395 00:46:44.610 --> 00:46:45.400 Thomas: Ralph. 396 00:46:45.640 --> 00:46:47.220 Benji Fisher: Okay. 397 00:46:49.890 --> 00:46:57.709 Ralf Koller: I would vote against the won won't fix it. It's clearly a confusing matter. 398 00:46:59.120 --> 00:47:02.910 Ralf Koller: Eileen, towards. in case 399 00:47:03.240 --> 00:47:07.890 Ralf Koller: those fields are required to my initial suggestion to 400 00:47:08.310 --> 00:47:09.670 Ralf Koller: make 401 00:47:10.780 --> 00:47:17.619 Ralf Koller: it implicit that the user has to decide for the default value of those fields. 402 00:47:18.140 --> 00:47:19.230 Ralf Koller: But then. 403 00:47:19.960 --> 00:47:25.560 Ralf Koller: again, the problem. It's also for the 404 00:47:26.720 --> 00:47:35.399 Ralf Koller: not required field in the context of the checkbox and the inability to distinguish between no value and 405 00:47:35.430 --> 00:47:38.530 Ralf Koller: the no check box state 406 00:47:38.620 --> 00:47:40.809 Ralf Koller: and that way. That's also an issue 407 00:47:41.170 --> 00:47:42.740 Ralf Koller: that would have to be tackled 408 00:47:42.780 --> 00:47:47.989 Ralf Koller: somewhere. But still, I consider the whole topic problematic. 409 00:47:49.190 --> 00:47:53.249 Ralf Koller: And it has. We need some fix. 410 00:47:56.570 --> 00:47:58.529 Benji Fisher: And, Thomas, what did you want to say? 411 00:47:59.010 --> 00:48:11.830 Thomas: So? I think. unfortunately, I agree not. Unfortunately, it's not the right phrase to use. But I do agree with Ralph, so I guess it's not a simple. I don't agree that we should just 412 00:48:11.860 --> 00:48:14.209 Thomas: close the issue or decline. 413 00:48:14.710 --> 00:48:18.410 Thomas: I believe that both check box 414 00:48:18.560 --> 00:48:26.079 Thomas: value approaches are valid. Use cases. I think that 415 00:48:26.150 --> 00:48:33.880 Thomas: it needs better in line documentation, meaning that within the widget it needs to describe 416 00:48:33.980 --> 00:48:41.100 Thomas: what the choices and make available the 2 different behaviors that might be desired from a checkbox. 417 00:48:41.300 --> 00:48:43.109 Thomas: one being 418 00:48:43.220 --> 00:48:46.509 Thomas: a desired state where, when required. 419 00:48:46.890 --> 00:49:02.029 Thomas: the checkbox must be filled, and we'll call that the terms of service use case. The second use case that has to would be when required, a choice that has to be made within the widget 420 00:49:02.150 --> 00:49:19.860 Thomas: a default value must be chosen, and it could be yes, it could be no but a default value is required. So in both instances you're either pre-populating the field with a value that gets saved to the database. 421 00:49:20.410 --> 00:49:21.520 Thomas: or 422 00:49:22.320 --> 00:49:43.040 Thomas: you're forcing it to be checked, to be. Yes, because the form isn't intended to be continued or saved until that condition is met, and so it uses the same widget to meet both use cases with inline documentation, so I believe more needs to be done to solve the situation. 423 00:49:44.580 --> 00:49:57.599 Thomas: but Additionally. I would. I believe that in the instance of the radio button, that when this field is required you should not be able to save the form with the default value 424 00:49:57.680 --> 00:50:00.489 Thomas: of N. A. 425 00:50:00.730 --> 00:50:03.590 Thomas: I I I think 426 00:50:03.770 --> 00:50:09.589 Benji Fisher: we we should have a look at what the current posal is before saying how we should change it. 427 00:50:10.290 --> 00:50:13.159 Benji Fisher: so I just applied the patch. 428 00:50:13.630 --> 00:50:21.659 Benji Fisher: and let's see, I 429 00:50:23.850 --> 00:50:29.379 Benji Fisher: I guess if I market is required I'm guessing that a new form element will be revealed. 430 00:50:29.600 --> 00:50:30.540 Benji Fisher: No. 431 00:50:35.420 --> 00:50:37.399 Benji Fisher: That's funny. 432 00:50:38.210 --> 00:50:42.189 Benji Fisher: On label off label. Choose a default. None. 433 00:50:43.330 --> 00:50:45.669 Benji Fisher: None of this has changed. 434 00:50:48.100 --> 00:50:49.510 Benji Fisher: maybe. 435 00:50:57.280 --> 00:51:00.570 Benji Fisher: No, there's nothing here. 436 00:51:04.310 --> 00:51:10.340 Benji Fisher: so there. There are no additional options on the settings, for you can either market it or not. 437 00:51:10.840 --> 00:51:12.990 Benji Fisher: No other 438 00:51:14.040 --> 00:51:17.260 Benji Fisher: changes there and then what happens? Whoops! 439 00:51:23.930 --> 00:51:26.739 Benji Fisher: It is no longer marked as required. 440 00:51:28.090 --> 00:51:35.240 Benji Fisher: let me, just to avoid confusion, let me go back and make the on off one required again. 441 00:51:46.810 --> 00:51:51.850 Benji Fisher: so I can choose that one to be off. I still need a title. 442 00:52:01.870 --> 00:52:04.409 Benji Fisher: so let me save it without 443 00:52:05.540 --> 00:52:07.150 Benji Fisher: checking the box. 444 00:52:08.330 --> 00:52:11.939 Thomas: My guess is, it's adding, it's forcing it to know. 445 00:52:13.940 --> 00:52:15.409 Benji Fisher: I suspect. So. Yeah. 446 00:52:17.780 --> 00:52:21.350 Thomas: which I don't think is a good behavior. So 447 00:52:22.020 --> 00:52:25.420 Thomas: I refer to my earlier comments. 448 00:52:28.840 --> 00:52:37.030 Benji Fisher: right? So 449 00:52:37.940 --> 00:52:39.140 Benji Fisher: this patch 450 00:52:40.950 --> 00:52:45.060 Benji Fisher: seems to make it impossible to have the previous behavior. 451 00:52:46.370 --> 00:52:49.450 Benji Fisher: that that seems like to me like a non-starter. 452 00:52:49.820 --> 00:53:01.019 Benji Fisher: If you're going to do anything in this issue you have to make. if an additional option in the settings form. I, 453 00:53:03.570 --> 00:53:05.460 Benji Fisher: they say. Oh, maybe it's 454 00:53:06.620 --> 00:53:08.810 Benji Fisher: not in the 455 00:53:09.660 --> 00:53:13.889 Benji Fisher: field settings. Maybe it's in the form settings. 456 00:53:15.780 --> 00:53:28.180 Benji Fisher: here it is. Okay. So so it does exist. Okay. 457 00:53:28.210 --> 00:53:31.710 Benji Fisher: I yes, it does exist. I was just looking in the wrong place. 458 00:53:32.000 --> 00:53:41.470 Benji Fisher: and if I now require the user to select check box. 459 00:53:44.270 --> 00:53:46.000 Benji Fisher: Never sure do I have to 460 00:53:47.070 --> 00:53:50.279 Benji Fisher: save the page after I save the settings. 461 00:53:51.540 --> 00:53:54.770 Benji Fisher: That's a question for another day. Oh. 462 00:54:00.880 --> 00:54:03.890 Benji Fisher: and now, when I try to save it doesn't let me. 463 00:54:05.170 --> 00:54:08.920 Benji Fisher: So 464 00:54:12.880 --> 00:54:14.040 Benji Fisher: this sort of 465 00:54:15.600 --> 00:54:22.529 Benji Fisher: resolves the the inconsistency that you can use either widget to save 466 00:54:22.730 --> 00:54:24.640 Benji Fisher: a 0 or one 467 00:54:25.190 --> 00:54:36.909 Benji Fisher: preserves the ability to use the check box this way. It's an additional step. You have to 468 00:54:37.310 --> 00:54:40.170 Benji Fisher: check the additional box. 469 00:54:44.610 --> 00:54:48.510 Benji Fisher: so go ahead, Ralph. 470 00:54:50.550 --> 00:55:03.760 Ralf Koller: One problem I see with the approach taken in the patch is this sort of disconnected, and you have missed on your own, basically the check box in the witch. 471 00:55:03.990 --> 00:55:05.140 Ralf Koller: and 472 00:55:05.310 --> 00:55:09.840 Ralf Koller: would it make more sense to move that check box at least 473 00:55:10.030 --> 00:55:15.610 Ralf Koller: to the field settings? It's a in the in the edit screen of the field itself. 474 00:55:15.910 --> 00:55:21.870 Ralf Koller: if the patch should go through that way. No. 475 00:55:23.260 --> 00:55:26.440 Benji Fisher: because it only matters 476 00:55:26.530 --> 00:55:31.879 Benji Fisher: if you've chosen the checkbox widget, and that's not a field setting. That's a form setting. 477 00:55:33.370 --> 00:55:36.979 Benji Fisher: So it it does belong in the settings for the check box. 478 00:55:37.990 --> 00:55:44.569 Thomas: The the challenges lack. You're forced to look at the settings. 479 00:55:44.800 --> 00:55:46.310 Thomas: Configuration 480 00:55:46.610 --> 00:55:48.920 Thomas: for the field. You're not 481 00:55:49.680 --> 00:55:51.959 Thomas: forced to look at the display page. 482 00:55:53.500 --> 00:55:56.610 Thomas: So when you're building these fields 483 00:55:56.800 --> 00:56:03.289 Thomas: you will see one area and know what options are available. So I agree it's in the right place. 484 00:56:04.670 --> 00:56:11.870 Thomas: but I'm worry that approaching it this way, so I would prefer right now 485 00:56:12.000 --> 00:56:36.639 Thomas: and then there's probably good arguments against it to see 2 different, to add 2 different types of checkbox checkbox widgets. So you can explicitly know that you're choosing one behavior other, and I don't know how we would do it, but I'd have check box and check box, special or check box forced, or something like that. But when choosing the bullion and choosing this way 486 00:56:49.400 --> 00:56:53.499 Benji Fisher: right? So when when you add yet another Boolean oops, I misspelled, yet 487 00:56:53.850 --> 00:57:02.880 Benji Fisher: it doesn't lead you through the form Widget settings, I think 666 did maybe 2 or 7 did 488 00:57:05.190 --> 00:57:14.289 Thomas: and I don't know like that to me. That's a a bigger issue to talk about whether or not people should be aware of or looking at that. But just in this instance 489 00:57:14.410 --> 00:57:21.950 Thomas: I would never, if I didn't know this was a difference. It it's going to be hard enough, knowing that the differences there 490 00:57:22.190 --> 00:57:25.100 Thomas: determining when you should use which behavior. 491 00:57:26.550 --> 00:57:30.960 Thomas: but kind of burying it here 492 00:57:31.050 --> 00:57:35.110 Thomas: makes it really hard. conceptually. 493 00:57:44.310 --> 00:57:48.759 Thomas: But I do like this like I feel like this issue is going in the right direction. 494 00:57:49.400 --> 00:57:55.810 Thomas: And I like our conversation. I just worry about usability. Like I. 495 00:57:56.130 --> 00:58:01.539 Thomas: It's one of those things like, I won't remember this in 2 or 3 years, when I'm trying to do this. 496 00:58:02.560 --> 00:58:07.710 Benji Fisher: So perhaps discoverability is is what concerns you. 497 00:58:09.210 --> 00:58:12.650 Benji Fisher: Oh, Aaron, you are able to join us. Welcome? 498 00:58:13.610 --> 00:58:18.090 Aaron McHale: Yeah. I joined, like at about 40 min into these things. 499 00:58:18.650 --> 00:58:19.700 Aaron McHale: I had to 500 00:58:19.970 --> 00:58:22.800 Aaron McHale: a prior appointment. I had to then. 501 00:58:23.110 --> 00:58:28.519 Aaron McHale: so I don't quite know what we're. I'm not hard to protect. What we're talking about. But 502 00:58:28.680 --> 00:58:37.950 Aaron McHale: what I do know is. there is an effort to reorganize, redesign the field. Your eye, and I believe 503 00:58:38.100 --> 00:58:44.249 Aaron McHale: one of the objectives is to or at least something that's been discussed in the past is the idea of. 504 00:58:44.350 --> 00:58:47.060 Aaron McHale: and a flipping on its head. The way you add the field. 505 00:58:47.080 --> 00:59:00.239 Aaron McHale: You pick your widget first, and then you, you know you can figure it. So I don't know if that helps with what we're discussing. But it sounds like that's a kind of pain point. As you said, the discoverability of the form, the form display settings. 506 00:59:04.570 --> 00:59:08.850 Benji Fisher: that's that would certainly make a difference to this issue. 507 00:59:11.310 --> 00:59:17.959 Benji Fisher: so again, what was the 508 00:59:18.830 --> 00:59:23.100 Benji Fisher: specific request? And Number 63, 509 00:59:32.780 --> 00:59:35.619 Benji Fisher: I find most confusing is that Boolean 510 00:59:35.830 --> 00:59:40.050 Benji Fisher: feel marked, required, will not be displayed as required. 511 00:59:40.250 --> 00:59:46.169 Benji Fisher: unless that new widget setting is also checked. Is there some way to inform the user? 512 00:59:47.560 --> 00:59:52.390 Benji Fisher: this specific question doesn't bother me 513 00:59:52.870 --> 01:00:06.180 Benji Fisher: because what this issue is doing is separating the required in the sense of the database table from required in terms of the form element. 514 01:00:06.680 --> 01:00:10.079 Benji Fisher: and the 2 are different. 515 01:00:11.000 --> 01:00:25.030 Benji Fisher: And the user doesn't need to know about the data model. The user doesn't need to know that. no way is this form going to say the null value. It's going to be either 0 or one. 516 01:00:25.220 --> 01:00:29.060 Benji Fisher: So so this point really doesn't bother me at all. 517 01:00:32.320 --> 01:00:36.409 Benji Fisher: So 2 min left. 518 01:00:37.060 --> 01:00:43.479 Benji Fisher: Are we ready to make a a recommendation on this issue, or do we want to mull it over a little bit further? 519 01:00:48.670 --> 01:00:58.160 Benji Fisher: it is awfully hard when no one has looked at the issue before the meeting started to come to a resolution. Go ahead, Thomas. 520 01:00:58.840 --> 01:01:05.690 Thomas: I don't think pending the other issue, that that Aaron mentioned 521 01:01:05.730 --> 01:01:15.209 Thomas: like hearing resolution over there seems like a dependency of this one. the discoverability. If that changes, impacts this issue. 522 01:01:15.270 --> 01:01:17.710 Thomas: So then the question just becomes like 523 01:01:17.980 --> 01:01:18.690 it. 524 01:01:18.820 --> 01:01:28.580 Thomas: I feel like we. We all have kind of come to consensus that we like it being made explicit, and we like having both. 525 01:01:28.710 --> 01:01:30.650 Thomas: A behavior is available. 526 01:01:30.780 --> 01:01:40.989 Thomas: So it sounds like we're behind this issue that we've kind of. We have come to consensus on it, despite having not read the issue prior to coming to the conversation. 527 01:01:41.230 --> 01:01:46.860 Thomas: the bigger issue is discoverability and the concerns around discoverability. 528 01:01:47.080 --> 01:01:49.859 Thomas: And that may be impacted by another issue. 529 01:01:50.120 --> 01:01:57.070 Thomas: Do we need to wait on that other issue? Or can we say this appears to behave the way we want? 530 01:01:57.400 --> 01:02:19.099 Thomas: But then the question I have is, should we keep the do the should we? Should the change be inverted. So right now it's allowing the form to be saved and forcing a value of No. Should we keep the same existing behavior and make it possible to change. So the only recommendation being that they switch 531 01:02:21.480 --> 01:02:25.679 Benji Fisher: well, you can keep the previous behavior. 532 01:02:25.860 --> 01:02:28.430 Benji Fisher: just by 533 01:02:29.920 --> 01:02:32.569 Benji Fisher: making this box. 534 01:02:33.660 --> 01:02:47.329 Thomas: No, I agree, I'm saying, should that box be checked by default, so that it behaves the way it already does today. So we're not so so so. Yes, certainly. There's a question of of whether. 535 01:02:47.420 --> 01:02:50.010 Benji Fisher: what what the default value should be. 536 01:02:51.130 --> 01:02:53.440 Benji Fisher: and the the issue talked about 537 01:02:53.640 --> 01:02:59.779 Benji Fisher: preserving the existing default for existing fields, but changing the default 538 01:02:59.860 --> 01:03:01.440 Benji Fisher: value going forward. 539 01:03:03.260 --> 01:03:16.529 Benji Fisher: So we are at the end of the hour, Aaron, if if there's an issue that that talks about that proposed change for the field. You I could you find that? And add it as a comment to to this 540 01:03:16.970 --> 01:03:20.289 Aaron McHale: this one? Yeah, I've I don't know. 541 01:03:20.340 --> 01:03:32.030 Aaron McHale: I I know I've seen it somewhere ages ago. I know there is a there is obviously an effort going on around kind of the field to your ux. so it's possible it's within that kind of collection. But 542 01:03:32.130 --> 01:03:33.990 Aaron McHale: yeah, I'll see that. Can they get up. 543 01:03:36.870 --> 01:03:47.229 Benji Fisher: And does does anyone volunteer to write a a comment on this? I think I can summarize our concerns. 544 01:03:47.510 --> 01:03:52.799 Benji Fisher: But I I don't think that we have a firm recommendation, yet anyone else want to do it. 545 01:03:55.680 --> 01:03:59.100 Benji Fisher: Okay, then I I will leave a comment and 546 01:04:01.940 --> 01:04:09.370 Benji Fisher: and maybe we can come to an actual decision offline. So thanks for coming. Thanks for staying minute over. 547 01:04:09.880 --> 01:04:12.299 Benji Fisher: And I'll be back next week. 548 01:04:14.050 --> 01:04:16.450 Ralf Koller: Thank you. Have a nice weekend. 549 01:04:16.900 --> 01:04:20.219 Thomas: Alright. Thank you very much. Thanks, Benji.