WEBVTT 104 00:10:14.550 --> 00:10:20.560 Aaron McHale: welcome. This is the dripple Usability meeting for the 20 fifth of August 2023. 105 00:10:20.870 --> 00:10:32.869 Aaron McHale: I'm Aaron Mchale. Audrey's in the meeting. Benji is away today and joining us today. We have Ralph Koller, Thomas Hull, Laurie Escola, and Emma Horrell 106 00:10:33.060 --> 00:10:43.660 Aaron McHale: and Ralph is currently sharing his screen. And I'm gonna pass over to Ralph and Laurie to talk about an issue that they're we'd like to discuss. So on you go. 107 00:10:44.940 --> 00:10:49.200 Ralf Koller: Okay, okay, the issue oops we're 108 00:10:49.720 --> 00:10:59.790 Ralf Koller: talking about today is issue number 3, 3, 7, 0 9, 4, 6. Page title should contextualize the local navigation. 109 00:11:00.100 --> 00:11:09.630 Ralf Koller: it's a rather new issue created in tune. The group 110 00:11:10.230 --> 00:11:20.010 Ralf Koller: here has already worked last year, I guess, on the regression issue which is basically 111 00:11:20.480 --> 00:11:30.489 Ralf Koller: in a similar scope, scope a similar direction, but the scope of the page title is a bit broader. The regression issue was about page 112 00:11:30.500 --> 00:11:37.180 Ralf Koller: pages, manages, fields managed formage displays should include name of content, type, or entity. And 113 00:11:37.580 --> 00:11:56.860 Ralf Koller: I scroll down to give a bit of a context. And we came up with the following pattern back, then. as a suggestion to for page, title, action, Aka primary Tabnab name for name, entity type, which means manage fields for article content, type. 114 00:11:57.280 --> 00:12:04.899 Ralf Koller: till the let's until the my 999 side and for the H. One 115 00:12:05.000 --> 00:12:09.230 Ralf Koller: for site. Users have article content type 116 00:12:09.300 --> 00:12:28.760 Ralf Koller: and for H. One for screen readers usually hit and manage fields. The title of the Active Tab front, loaded manage fields for article content type. That was the proposal only for bundle types like content types and the like. 117 00:12:29.100 --> 00:12:32.710 Ralf Koller: and the suggestion over here. 118 00:12:34.420 --> 00:12:37.450 Ralf Koller: went in a similar direction, but a bit broader. 119 00:12:37.490 --> 00:12:43.899 Ralf Koller: I've applied the patch. I guess it was yesterday or the day before, and 120 00:12:44.090 --> 00:12:48.089 Ralf Koller: started to write up 121 00:12:48.920 --> 00:12:50.190 Ralf Koller: a Google sheet. 122 00:12:50.410 --> 00:12:53.670 Ralf Koller: I can paste the link in the chat 123 00:12:56.540 --> 00:12:57.800 Ralf Koller: lever. Just 124 00:12:59.070 --> 00:13:04.749 Ralf Koller: it's just easier to see for consistency and 125 00:13:04.790 --> 00:13:26.460 Ralf Koller: have everything next to each other. First column is the path, second column is the title, then the H. One and oops apologies. And then I've also added, in case there is a primary task, label in place the title as well as the secondary task. 126 00:13:26.780 --> 00:13:32.160 Ralf Koller: And as you can see. let's take a look. 127 00:13:32.610 --> 00:13:34.120 Ralf Koller: Add the article. 128 00:13:35.340 --> 00:13:36.330 Ralf Koller: The 129 00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:40.300 Ralf Koller: H. One for the article is 130 00:13:42.380 --> 00:13:45.159 Ralf Koller: for screen reader users. 131 00:13:46.860 --> 00:13:52.259 Ralf Koller: The title is manage display article drupal. 132 00:13:53.210 --> 00:13:55.380 Ralf Koller: and the 133 00:13:55.750 --> 00:13:56.920 Ralf Koller: h one 134 00:13:57.770 --> 00:14:01.190 Ralf Koller: is 135 00:14:01.460 --> 00:14:04.780 Ralf Koller: article manage display. 136 00:14:04.840 --> 00:14:12.660 Ralf Koller: yeah, that's basically the current state. And I've already 137 00:14:12.780 --> 00:14:17.860 Ralf Koller: I've read the comments by Christina and Laurie. They've made. 138 00:14:17.940 --> 00:14:19.110 Ralf Koller: and 139 00:14:19.250 --> 00:14:25.360 Ralf Koller: was already writing up the points 140 00:14:27.080 --> 00:14:31.100 Ralf Koller: I consider suboptimal and 141 00:14:32.210 --> 00:14:34.220 Ralf Koller: wanted to comment 142 00:14:34.600 --> 00:14:40.439 Ralf Koller: over the weekend. And yeah, well wait for Banshee to arrive, but I could quickly 143 00:14:40.940 --> 00:14:46.490 Ralf Koller: list the points I consider 144 00:14:48.090 --> 00:14:53.029 Ralf Koller: problematic at the moment from a readability standpoint. 145 00:14:56.640 --> 00:15:04.630 Ralf Koller: And yeah. And so also it has to be noted that in the issue. We've talked and discussed about back then. 146 00:15:04.650 --> 00:15:15.390 Ralf Koller: It was entirely only the scope for the bundle type, and we mainly looked at the content type. But in that case it also covers 147 00:15:15.570 --> 00:15:22.010 Ralf Koller: the top level menu, all top level menu items like also content and 148 00:15:22.110 --> 00:15:35.209 Ralf Koller: permissions, and also app people, and also configuration and the like. So it's a bit broader and has a few details we haven't discussed back then. 149 00:15:35.940 --> 00:15:40.209 Ralf Koller: but maybe if any one of you has any questions or something to add. 150 00:15:40.650 --> 00:15:46.010 Ralf Koller: before I go on with the points I've noticed 151 00:15:46.130 --> 00:15:49.089 Ralf Koller: we could use as a start for the discussion. 152 00:15:49.400 --> 00:15:53.129 Aaron McHale: Yeah, I see, I was gonna ask. And I see Thomas and his hand up. 153 00:15:53.920 --> 00:16:00.179 Thomas Howell: Just very briefly. Could you freeze the first line of the sheet. Yep. 154 00:16:03.400 --> 00:16:08.120 Ralf Koller: that's a good idea. This is edit. What is? Where is it in? 155 00:16:09.280 --> 00:16:11.860 Aaron McHale: Was it under view? I think. 156 00:16:12.230 --> 00:16:14.880 Aaron McHale: Yeah. 157 00:16:16.080 --> 00:16:24.100 Aaron McHale: I was. I was fine in both. In both Google. She's on excel. It's always in the least like the place you'd least suspect it's gonna be. 158 00:16:25.930 --> 00:16:43.569 Aaron McHale: Yeah. And this is like, this is such a great just to thank you for putting this together, Ralph, because there's really useful sheet you put together there just to get a sense of kind of what we're looking at and just to check is everybody clear on what it is that we're looking at, and what the the context of what we're discussing is 159 00:16:45.680 --> 00:16:51.190 Emma Horrell: I could do with somebody explaining that if that's not going to take up too much time, please. 160 00:16:56.180 --> 00:17:04.640 Aaron McHale: Yeah, it's Yeah. Okay. So obviously, this, this sheet that we've got is Ralph, is it just 161 00:17:04.859 --> 00:17:06.900 Aaron McHale: does the sheet just cover 162 00:17:07.089 --> 00:17:13.239 Aaron McHale: like things under field types and things like that? Or is it 163 00:17:13.829 --> 00:17:19.919 Ralf Koller: problem? My top level menu, I 1 Si quickly draw that out. 164 00:17:20.300 --> 00:17:25.830 Ralf Koller: If you go in there. Welcome to triple. You have here content. 165 00:17:27.530 --> 00:17:32.999 Ralf Koller: And you have here content. Basically, that's the path admin content. Then you have 166 00:17:33.100 --> 00:17:35.819 Ralf Koller: the title. I went, basically went in. 167 00:17:36.760 --> 00:17:38.890 Ralf Koller: and the devtools oops. 168 00:17:40.050 --> 00:17:44.000 Ralf Koller: No, for that. took a look there 169 00:17:45.210 --> 00:17:47.589 Ralf Koller: at the moment its content content 170 00:17:48.700 --> 00:17:58.120 Ralf Koller: content drupal in that case, as you see content drupal. Then I went ahead and inspected the H. One. 171 00:17:59.360 --> 00:18:03.879 Ralf Koller: and in that case it's just content as the 172 00:18:04.340 --> 00:18:05.690 Ralf Koller: H. One. 173 00:18:05.910 --> 00:18:08.639 Ralf Koller: And that way I went through 174 00:18:08.820 --> 00:18:09.809 Ralf Koller: took a look. 175 00:18:11.320 --> 00:18:12.110 Ralf Koller: Oops. 176 00:18:13.760 --> 00:18:15.290 Ralf Koller: for example, blocks. 177 00:18:16.670 --> 00:18:22.050 Ralf Koller: comments, and so forth. And one detail in the regression issue back. Then 178 00:18:22.350 --> 00:18:28.399 Ralf Koller: we haven't covered and basically forgot. Adding those secondary tasks 179 00:18:29.090 --> 00:18:34.490 Ralf Koller: till the H. One and the title those all got unnoticed. 180 00:18:37.080 --> 00:18:45.579 Emma Horrell: I'm sorry. Can I just say so? Is it about like having consistency between the title. And so you've mapped that out in the spreadsheet. 181 00:18:46.300 --> 00:18:51.419 Ralf Koller: If you take a look at the moment, for example. 182 00:18:53.180 --> 00:18:57.430 Ralf Koller: let's take a look at. Let's compare, for example, a content type article 183 00:18:57.650 --> 00:19:07.719 Emma Horrell: we have here in Ed, in the edit tab, you have edit article Content type. But now, when it feels here, when it feels that context, I get you. Yeah, okay. 184 00:19:07.850 --> 00:19:15.019 Aaron McHale: yeah. And this was so this was specifically about the issue that the first issue Russia was looking at. I know. 185 00:19:15.620 --> 00:19:24.699 Aaron McHale: ye yeah, I did, Ralph and Laurie. You were or particularly Laurie. We were working on a an issue that, as you said, with a broader scope. 186 00:19:24.780 --> 00:19:31.670 Aaron McHale: I'm all doing either yourself or Ralph. Do you want to explain a bit more about that? That the other issue there? 187 00:19:40.500 --> 00:20:00.629 Aaron McHale: Do you mean talk about this broader issue, or talk about the specific issue? Which one do you want? Do you want? I was thinking about this one cause I think it'd be good to. You. Know that one. The other one is more focused on. You know, fields and things. I think this one is, is it more broader, like to look at the the admin you as a whole? Is that right? 188 00:20:01.550 --> 00:20:05.620 Lauri Eskola: Yeah, it is basically the same issue. I would say that this issue 189 00:20:05.740 --> 00:20:08.229 Lauri Eskola: most severely impacts 190 00:20:08.320 --> 00:20:11.970 Lauri Eskola: the field, do I? But there are other 191 00:20:12.070 --> 00:20:18.709 Lauri Eskola: device which it impacts. And we did discover this through the field. Ui as well, but realize that it's 192 00:20:19.690 --> 00:20:26.530 Lauri Eskola: not something that we could fix within the field. July, because it's just how the pace shuttle works in in general. 193 00:20:28.370 --> 00:20:32.380 Lauri Eskola: So I would say, it's it's the same problem as the other one. 194 00:20:32.440 --> 00:20:33.810 Lauri Eskola: It's just. 195 00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:38.239 Lauri Eskola: I guess, that we made the realization that we should not fix it in field. Ui. 196 00:20:43.790 --> 00:20:49.550 Aaron McHale: okay. And Emma, is this does this help clarify? As well? Kind of 197 00:20:49.870 --> 00:20:52.320 Aaron McHale: of what you know your understanding of this? 198 00:20:52.890 --> 00:20:55.859 Emma Horrell: Yeah, no, that makes sense. And thanks for that. 199 00:20:59.300 --> 00:21:02.979 Aaron McHale: Okay. Ralph, I think you had some. You're gonna bring up some other points. 200 00:21:03.120 --> 00:21:04.510 Ralf Koller: Yep. 201 00:21:05.560 --> 00:21:16.289 Ralf Koller: There are several smaller details. in the regression issue 202 00:21:17.090 --> 00:21:25.679 Ralf Koller: main idea was to front load the information. Because basically, if you're a screen reader user and 203 00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:28.810 Ralf Koller: you get to, for example, the article Content type. 204 00:21:29.220 --> 00:21:44.070 Ralf Koller: and as soon as you are on the article, content type and navigate now in between the available tabs each time in the in. In our suggestion it would be front loaded, meaning manage fields 205 00:21:44.230 --> 00:21:53.770 Ralf Koller: for article content type. Or now you're on managed display for article content type that way. The most important information is front-loaded 206 00:21:54.060 --> 00:21:55.270 Ralf Koller: that way. 207 00:21:56.050 --> 00:22:01.710 Ralf Koller: It's currently in the other issue. In the newer one 208 00:22:02.200 --> 00:22:05.259 Ralf Koller: the bundle type is front loaded. Now, meaning. 209 00:22:05.490 --> 00:22:14.220 Ralf Koller: You go on the first, you know, you're on the article content type. Now you get article managed fields, article, manage, display, or in case you 210 00:22:14.650 --> 00:22:20.099 Ralf Koller: the type is appended, meaning article content type. 211 00:22:20.260 --> 00:22:30.939 Ralf Koller: manage fields, article, content, type, manage, display. So the important information is at the end, and you have to skim 212 00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:35.400 Ralf Koller: or scan with your ears through it. Same with, for example. 213 00:22:35.640 --> 00:22:39.339 Ralf Koller: your eyes. And if it's front-loaded 214 00:22:39.430 --> 00:22:45.719 Ralf Koller: you're able to to jump off at any time, meaning, okay, manage fields. 215 00:22:46.260 --> 00:22:49.659 Ralf Koller: and I know I'm on the article content type. I can skip. 216 00:22:49.670 --> 00:22:57.399 Ralf Koller: but in case I'm sure where I am, or if I have a short working memory. Then I am able to continue. But that way 217 00:22:57.620 --> 00:23:04.109 Ralf Koller: it's a bit more cumbersome from my perspective. And, on the other hand. 218 00:23:04.340 --> 00:23:12.779 Ralf Koller: something we haven't discussed back. Then, in the context, for example, of extent, there you have 219 00:23:13.230 --> 00:23:21.400 Ralf Koller: extent, which basically lists the available modules. Then you have extend update and extend 220 00:23:21.590 --> 00:23:22.830 Ralf Koller: uninstall. 221 00:23:23.040 --> 00:23:33.230 Ralf Koller: There we have to. Would have to come up if we would stick to the front loading pattern 222 00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:35.869 Ralf Koller: for cases like that. 223 00:23:37.050 --> 00:23:41.089 Ralf Koller: There would have to be some discussion. But as this the detail. 224 00:23:41.280 --> 00:23:44.339 Ralf Koller: if you take a look at all the 225 00:23:46.040 --> 00:23:48.210 Ralf Koller: top, level menu items. 226 00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:57.480 Ralf Koller: everything over everything is a verb except extent, which isn't. It's it's a noun. I'm sorry. And extent is a verb. 227 00:23:57.900 --> 00:24:00.980 Ralf Koller: Always mix those 2 up. And 228 00:24:01.630 --> 00:24:04.829 Ralf Koller: that way, if you front-loaded update extent. 229 00:24:04.980 --> 00:24:18.160 Ralf Koller: you have basically 2 verbs instead of, for example, update. If the top level menu item would be called module, then you could could easily write update modules. For example, that way. It's a bit more tricky. 230 00:24:18.210 --> 00:24:28.899 Ralf Koller: and another detail. I've noticed there are several, for example, for media types. 231 00:24:29.690 --> 00:24:42.480 Ralf Koller: then for contact forms and for content blocks. and it is append front, loaded, appended to each and every 232 00:24:42.940 --> 00:24:50.670 Ralf Koller: page for that type, in contrast to others, was just on the edit page. 233 00:24:51.380 --> 00:24:54.410 Ralf Koller: That's also a redundant. 234 00:24:54.620 --> 00:25:01.110 Ralf Koller: not very helpful information, basically. And 235 00:25:01.300 --> 00:25:02.990 Ralf Koller: for translation. 236 00:25:04.400 --> 00:25:08.850 Ralf Koller: that is something that's in particular. On 237 00:25:09.500 --> 00:25:10.909 Ralf Koller: further down 238 00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:21.130 Ralf Koller: edit style, translation for large edit responses all the translation, all the translation H ones are rather wordy and lengthy. 239 00:25:21.610 --> 00:25:23.780 Ralf Koller: and the last point. 240 00:25:23.840 --> 00:25:31.790 Ralf Koller: as I said, we all we forgot on the regression issue. Back then also is or 241 00:25:31.930 --> 00:25:40.099 Ralf Koller: left out, is the secondary task you have no way to distinguish between. 242 00:25:41.160 --> 00:25:52.629 Ralf Koller: Where's a good example? Rss. For example here on manage, display, article, manage, display, article, manage, display, article, manage, display, article 243 00:25:53.090 --> 00:26:01.240 Ralf Koller: course they're the secondary tab is all about view modes. 244 00:26:01.660 --> 00:26:04.649 Ralf Koller: meaning full RS. Teaser 245 00:26:04.950 --> 00:26:06.120 Ralf Koller: and display. 246 00:26:07.540 --> 00:26:11.149 Ralf Koller: So it's difficult to distinguish that way or impossible. 247 00:26:13.240 --> 00:26:28.520 Lauri Eskola: But that's not an issue with the pattern. That's an issue that the page is giving us incorrect titles right now. It's because of it would have been even more confusing if the page title previously was full content and not manage display. 248 00:26:29.300 --> 00:26:34.260 Lauri Eskola: so we can change the titles in a follow-up after this one. 249 00:26:35.500 --> 00:26:37.090 Lauri Eskola: Take that into account. 250 00:26:37.380 --> 00:26:47.040 Ralf Koller: but not sure, because the pattern so far hasn't included yet the title of the secondary tab. 251 00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:54.020 Lauri Eskola: So the set, the title of the page would then have to be like the money. 252 00:26:55.040 --> 00:27:01.139 Lauri Eskola: because this is not including the information off the tabs per se. It's just not taking any 253 00:27:01.320 --> 00:27:09.859 Lauri Eskola: strings from that. That local task manager it what it's taking from there is this stuff the route, and it takes them 254 00:27:09.880 --> 00:27:11.730 Lauri Eskola: title of that route. 255 00:27:12.650 --> 00:27:17.279 Lauri Eskola: what we don't have to do is we have to make sure that thick and 256 00:27:18.020 --> 00:27:21.090 Lauri Eskola: level local tasks include meaningful 257 00:27:21.210 --> 00:27:25.210 Lauri Eskola: page titles that explain their relationship 258 00:27:26.310 --> 00:27:28.820 Lauri Eskola: when. wherever they are. 259 00:27:30.790 --> 00:27:31.909 Aaron McHale: So I 260 00:27:32.120 --> 00:27:38.739 Aaron McHale: I see Thomas as his hand up and like to give him the opportunity to come in as well. 261 00:27:41.750 --> 00:27:44.690 Thomas Howell: So 262 00:27:44.900 --> 00:27:54.509 Thomas Howell: I'm still struggling to to understand what our recommendation is with this issue. I'm seeing 263 00:27:54.720 --> 00:28:01.020 Thomas Howell: the difference between path, title, and H. One, that there's no consistency. 264 00:28:01.710 --> 00:28:06.149 Thomas Howell: and is our recommendation that these things should follow a consistent pattern. 265 00:28:06.690 --> 00:28:20.230 Thomas Howell: because right now it seems to be very opinion, based, like someone thinks that the H. One should be X. Someone thinks that the title should be X. But we're not actually following any hierarchical structure. 266 00:28:21.210 --> 00:28:24.729 Thomas Howell: even though path gives a very strictly hierarchical approach. 267 00:28:27.540 --> 00:28:38.849 Lauri Eskola: Yeah, so all of these have different purposes. And just to be clear, the H. One that we have here is. the one that we would be providing for the screen reader. So what we're talking about is the screen reader 268 00:28:39.270 --> 00:28:42.180 Lauri Eskola: H ones. And it could. 269 00:28:42.200 --> 00:28:50.139 Lauri Eskola: Basically, the hypothesis that we have is that screen readers need additional context on top of 270 00:28:50.800 --> 00:28:55.860 Lauri Eskola: you know what the the visual user needs in the H one because of 271 00:28:56.300 --> 00:28:57.670 Lauri Eskola: that 272 00:28:58.260 --> 00:29:01.330 Lauri Eskola: current page title is not going to be visible 273 00:29:01.740 --> 00:29:08.399 Lauri Eskola: or the visual view, and that's because of it. It's visible through the local tasks. 274 00:29:09.380 --> 00:29:11.170 Lauri Eskola: but it might be, you know 275 00:29:11.240 --> 00:29:24.910 Lauri Eskola: we don't. We want to make it convenient for the the screen or users as well to understand what what is the basic they are currently in. So that's why we are changing the H one. So that is the reason why we're discussing the H one. Then, obviously, the document title has a different purpose, because it's 276 00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:28.680 Lauri Eskola: your what do you see on your browser, tab? 277 00:29:29.100 --> 00:29:31.070 Lauri Eskola: So there's like a different 278 00:29:31.530 --> 00:29:36.519 Lauri Eskola: sort of priority to how we structure that because of 279 00:29:36.740 --> 00:29:53.089 Thomas Howell: II do understand that what I'm what I'm getting at is it doesn't feel as if there is a consistent pattern for the entire site, or even series of patterns. It says, if this is the design of the page, then this is what we would expect the title to be 280 00:29:54.030 --> 00:30:02.539 Thomas Howell: it just feels because it it it at different times. It's going to different depths. 281 00:30:02.850 --> 00:30:09.460 Thomas Howell: I think of it like Max Depth when you're looking at the path, and you're trying to figure out where you want to go in the path. 282 00:30:09.720 --> 00:30:16.569 Thomas Howell: It just seems inconsistent. There was an example, I think further up, close to the top 283 00:30:16.800 --> 00:30:19.409 Thomas Howell: that I was looking at. 284 00:30:20.540 --> 00:30:22.840 Let me see 285 00:30:24.050 --> 00:30:26.210 which one am. I said. 286 00:30:27.730 --> 00:30:33.490 Thomas Howell: yeah, I think I was looking at the 2 managers and 287 00:30:37.380 --> 00:30:40.839 Thomas Howell: It was the wording around. 288 00:30:44.450 --> 00:30:53.919 Thomas Howell: I think it was like the default comments versus edit contact, and it just isn't clear how the h one is being derived from title 289 00:30:57.500 --> 00:31:00.069 Thomas Howell: and there were some things 290 00:31:00.580 --> 00:31:12.290 Thomas Howell: where it was. All the same, I'm just what I'm trying to say is that it feels like I agree with the intent of this issue. 291 00:31:12.640 --> 00:31:19.840 Thomas Howell: but I feel like we should be able to be consistent with the pattern that we're laying out 292 00:31:20.050 --> 00:31:33.819 Thomas Howell: so that the title in the makes sense and it's not. It doesn't feel like it's just someone's opinion of what the should be, but that the is being derived from good titles. 293 00:31:35.480 --> 00:31:45.569 Lauri Eskola: Does this make sense at all? Yes, I think so. For example, if you look at the role. 25. The base title for that is edit default comments, comment, type. But then, if we look at the 294 00:31:45.700 --> 00:31:52.649 Lauri Eskola: sub pages of that title is Manage field default comments. So that's a different title. Right? So it's not kind of 295 00:31:52.900 --> 00:31:59.159 Lauri Eskola: one symptom of that problem. Thomas. Yeah, that is, that is one symptom of that problem correct? Yes. 296 00:31:59.260 --> 00:32:07.989 Lauri Eskola: And so II don't think that's intentional right now it the challenge. Is that so? For example, on the role 25, that 297 00:32:08.050 --> 00:32:11.150 Lauri Eskola: comment edit form has a 298 00:32:11.350 --> 00:32:13.700 Lauri Eskola: override for the title which kind of 299 00:32:13.790 --> 00:32:24.570 Lauri Eskola: overrides the generic logic of how the page driver is generated, and I think we want to get rid of as many of those as possible to provide consistent page titles. 300 00:32:26.320 --> 00:32:28.149 Lauri Eskola: It's it's not necessarily a 301 00:32:28.210 --> 00:32:35.020 Lauri Eskola: both in the algorithm itself. It's just for some reason for historical reasons that Page happens to have that 302 00:32:35.400 --> 00:32:36.420 Lauri Eskola: override. 303 00:32:36.550 --> 00:32:45.339 Thomas Howell: And I was trying to compare. So let's we're going to compare 4 lines. There are 2 sets of 2. If we look at line 304 00:32:45.510 --> 00:32:47.460 Thomas Howell: 17 and 18 305 00:32:48.790 --> 00:33:10.559 Thomas Howell: we see that it says like, manage fields and manage form display. And it's getting that from the farthest right of the path. So we go to the path. We go to the farthest right. We see that we're talking about editing a block, which is 2 like it's not manage. It's you've you've got 3. 306 00:33:11.500 --> 00:33:25.000 Thomas Howell: You have 3 depths to the path. That result in the H. One of what we're looking at. If we then go down to lines 22, and 23, and we look at book and book settings. 307 00:33:25.340 --> 00:33:26.849 Thomas Howell: we're not doing that at all. 308 00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:39.370 Thomas Howell: So both the title and the H. One, despite the fact that it would be helpful in the title to differentiate, and the fact that book and book settings are at 2 different depths. 309 00:33:40.340 --> 00:33:52.679 Thomas Howell: Neither one of those factors is really visible in either the title or the H. One. So that's what I was trying to say in terms of when I look at the title, a lot of the titles seem to be 310 00:33:52.730 --> 00:33:54.420 Thomas Howell: just because someone felt 311 00:33:54.730 --> 00:34:02.260 Thomas Howell: that should be the title. It's not being derived from information that would make it helpful to someone looking at that. Yeah. URL, 312 00:34:02.780 --> 00:34:10.489 Lauri Eskola: so I think that again, it's that setting stage probably has an override which overrides that page shuttle for some reason, to books. 313 00:34:10.770 --> 00:34:13.830 Lauri Eskola: and for that reason we did. There's nothing for us to add 314 00:34:13.929 --> 00:34:17.299 Lauri Eskola: to that page title because it would be just books, books. 315 00:34:18.520 --> 00:34:22.429 Thomas Howell: right? So it's getting overwritten in settings. 316 00:34:22.530 --> 00:34:28.539 Thomas Howell: Can we even tell which of these paths which these H ones are being overwritten. 317 00:34:29.239 --> 00:34:38.339 Lauri Eskola: We can tell it based on, you know, when we see these inconsistencies in here, and we can do a grep in the code for the overrides as well. 318 00:34:38.699 --> 00:34:44.230 Lauri Eskola: I think a lot of the inconsistencies come from that. So maybe it would be 319 00:34:44.850 --> 00:34:50.059 Lauri Eskola: because I think all of I agree that all of these should be should be fixed, like all of the 320 00:34:51.370 --> 00:34:54.819 Lauri Eskola: inconsistencies that we are seeing are caused by that 321 00:34:54.909 --> 00:34:59.390 Lauri Eskola: because of the algorithm which we have, which is that we have 322 00:34:59.580 --> 00:35:07.410 Lauri Eskola: current page title which we combine with the current section that you are in. It's a very consistent pattern. 323 00:35:09.010 --> 00:35:14.240 Lauri Eskola: And then the overrides mess up with that a little bit 324 00:35:15.160 --> 00:35:22.500 Lauri Eskola: so I'm wondering if it would be if we, if we agree on the, are we agreeing that the algorithm that we have 325 00:35:22.590 --> 00:35:23.809 Lauri Eskola: is right. 326 00:35:24.260 --> 00:35:29.109 Lauri Eskola: then we maybe should talk about the exceptions and how to clean that up. 327 00:35:29.250 --> 00:35:30.370 Lauri Eskola: or 328 00:35:30.430 --> 00:35:35.950 Lauri Eskola: are we not? Are we still disagreeing on the algorithm itself, on how we want these space shuttles to be generated. 329 00:35:37.430 --> 00:35:38.250 Aaron McHale: So 330 00:35:38.460 --> 00:35:55.339 Aaron McHale: I wonder if it would be helpful? Because this the spreadsheet we're looking at is like the current state, right? So it's it's how things are right now. And from what I understand, the issue that we're talking about essentially is looking to try and establish a generic pattern that we can use. That fits 331 00:35:56.000 --> 00:36:02.199 Aaron McHale: the broadest use cases, I suppose, across the Admin Ui. So we have that consistency. Is that is that right? 332 00:36:04.860 --> 00:36:05.650 Lauri Eskola: Yep. 333 00:36:05.840 --> 00:36:08.729 Aaron McHale: that's right. Okay, so 334 00:36:08.820 --> 00:36:17.320 Aaron McHale: maybe. Ralph, it might be helpful if you could like. Just open up the Admin ui, and we can. We can see a couple of examples, because I think I 335 00:36:17.860 --> 00:36:23.819 Ralf Koller: which which version the patch version, or install without a patch? 336 00:36:24.300 --> 00:36:30.560 Aaron McHale: Oh, is there a yeah, there's a there's a patch session. How much does the patch fashion change? 337 00:36:30.740 --> 00:36:34.200 Aaron McHale: Does it? Does it change everything? 338 00:36:34.970 --> 00:36:37.990 Lauri Eskola: Yeah, it does 339 00:36:38.050 --> 00:36:47.350 Aaron McHale: change all of the titles. Yeah, maybe we should look at that then, because I think it'd be that would be a better use of time will be to see. Okay, what can we? What should we do with. 340 00:36:47.430 --> 00:36:48.669 Aaron McHale: you know, going forward. 341 00:36:48.990 --> 00:36:50.640 Aaron McHale: if you've 342 00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:59.450 Lauri Eskola: can you, in the meanwhile give me access to edit the spreadsheet. I could just maybe add some examples of what I think some of the titles should be. 343 00:36:59.640 --> 00:37:03.669 Lauri Eskola: So that's people get an idea on what I think is the ideal 344 00:37:04.070 --> 00:37:08.970 Ralf Koller: is it possible? By adding email address here. 345 00:37:09.210 --> 00:37:12.070 Lauri Eskola: yeah. I'm gonna 346 00:37:12.290 --> 00:37:13.990 Lauri Eskola: write my email. And 347 00:37:14.150 --> 00:37:15.070 Ralf Koller: okay. 348 00:37:17.970 --> 00:37:19.159 Ralf Koller: 1 Si 349 00:37:22.020 --> 00:37:23.910 Ralf Koller: shouldn't be on a video. 350 00:37:31.360 --> 00:37:36.819 Aaron McHale: And so it sounds like what we're say. What we're saying just well, rough is is getting that 351 00:37:37.090 --> 00:37:41.789 Aaron McHale: that the way I understand it. And this pattern that we want to get to is 352 00:37:42.950 --> 00:37:45.050 Aaron McHale: is essentially 353 00:37:45.770 --> 00:37:47.990 Aaron McHale: the title of the page 354 00:37:48.640 --> 00:37:51.160 Aaron McHale: is consistent across. 355 00:37:51.260 --> 00:38:05.910 Aaron McHale: Let's say this section that you're in and by section I mean all of the pages that are grouped by a set of tabs and sit under a single menu item 356 00:38:06.110 --> 00:38:17.280 Aaron McHale: in the admin interface. So, for instance, under structure, content, types. everything under there would use the same page. Title is that 357 00:38:17.410 --> 00:38:28.319 Aaron McHale: or well, maybe don't. So everything under like the each individual content type would be so articled. So all of the tabs would have the same. 358 00:38:28.600 --> 00:38:35.339 Aaron McHale: I need to say, because the page title is, yeah, different users. But you, if you take a loop 359 00:38:35.520 --> 00:38:37.380 Ralf Koller: at the 360 00:38:40.040 --> 00:38:43.339 Ralf Koller: Devtools, then you have a visually hidden 361 00:38:44.610 --> 00:38:47.680 Ralf Koller: span after the article. 362 00:38:48.480 --> 00:38:53.649 Ralf Koller: But that's something. If you take a look, if you compare the title in the H one 363 00:38:54.230 --> 00:38:59.489 Ralf Koller: for example, in the context of the article, then 364 00:39:00.110 --> 00:39:03.229 Ralf Koller: on the title, it's front loaded, meaning 365 00:39:03.530 --> 00:39:09.440 Ralf Koller: managed just by article drupal, and on the H. One it's the other way around. Article 366 00:39:10.710 --> 00:39:15.030 Ralf Koller: manage display that is also inconsistent 367 00:39:17.670 --> 00:39:25.150 Ralf Koller: might be confusing, because if you visit a page I could quickly demonstrate 368 00:39:25.760 --> 00:39:27.750 Ralf Koller: with. We're 369 00:39:28.090 --> 00:39:30.110 Ralf Koller: my fingers are, too. 370 00:39:30.210 --> 00:39:33.070 Ralf Koller: Are you able to hear me right now? 371 00:39:33.220 --> 00:39:37.209 Ralf Koller: yes. 372 00:39:37.370 --> 00:39:39.309 Ralf Koller: One test. 373 00:39:40.360 --> 00:39:45.989 Ralf Koller: also on safari. Manage, form, display, vertical line, article, vertical line, drupal window toolbar has keyboard focus. 374 00:39:46.160 --> 00:39:49.240 Ralf Koller: manage, form, display, vertical line, article, vertical line, protocol by content. 375 00:39:50.440 --> 00:40:05.219 Ralf Koller: You are currently on web content to enter the web area, press, control option, shift down there, manage, manage, display, article propol. Page has 20 links, 34 buttons, 5 headings, 35 form controls, one table, 10 landmarks manage, display, vertical line article, vertical line, propel, web content. 376 00:40:05.700 --> 00:40:06.700 Ralf Koller: voice. They're off 377 00:40:07.370 --> 00:40:15.119 Ralf Koller: as you can see. The thing that is announced is the title and not the H. One. And the H. One is then just 378 00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:22.020 Ralf Koller: announced. In case you go into the rotor, for example. 379 00:40:25.930 --> 00:40:26.860 Aaron McHale: So do 380 00:40:27.200 --> 00:40:33.830 Aaron McHale: II guess I was. I was thinking that as well, so like it's helpful that you've demonstrated that. So I'm wondering 381 00:40:34.960 --> 00:40:45.639 Aaron McHale: is is putting the context that we've done into the page title enough for screening their users. Do we also then need to 382 00:40:45.850 --> 00:40:51.790 Aaron McHale: like, I'm thinking, would it be okay to have article as just article and 383 00:40:52.530 --> 00:40:54.890 Aaron McHale: then on. 384 00:40:55.300 --> 00:41:05.549 Aaron McHale: and then not have any? You know we don't, you know, not have the visually hidden information, because it seems like that is already in the the actual page. Title. 385 00:41:06.250 --> 00:41:08.170 Ralf Koller: That's what you mean. 386 00:41:10.260 --> 00:41:11.829 Ralf Koller: 1 s 387 00:41:11.940 --> 00:41:13.550 Ralf Koller: I quick 388 00:41:13.850 --> 00:41:14.890 plug, my 389 00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:21.420 Ralf Koller: whatsoever on safari management. 16 point d. Apple system. UI font headings menu. 390 00:41:22.500 --> 00:41:36.249 Ralf Koller: You are currently in a heading level. 2 toolbar items. You are currently on a heading level, too. Eddie's menu heading level, 2 toolbar item headings, menu heading level 2 till barrocating's menu 391 00:41:36.290 --> 00:41:41.140 Ralf Koller: heading level, 2 2 bar items headings. Menu. I don't know. It's it's work. 392 00:41:41.570 --> 00:41:50.349 Ralf Koller: Button menu. Heading's menu heading level, 2 tool by right heading level, 2 red from heading level, 1 2 items black on white, article, black on white manage, display. 393 00:41:51.510 --> 00:42:04.710 Ralf Koller: You are currently in a voiceover, menu. This is a list of voice over menu options to navigate up and down the list. Use the arrow keys to choose a menu item for heading level, 2 primary tubes heading level. 2 secondary comes so and basically film controls, menu 394 00:42:05.340 --> 00:42:09.439 Ralf Koller: tables, menu, landmark's menu, then items in Web's windows, spots, mate, blinks, menu 395 00:42:09.620 --> 00:42:10.510 Ralf Koller: links. 396 00:42:11.340 --> 00:42:16.729 Ralf Koller: blink, visit, blink, blink, visit, link visit it, visit link visit it, visit it, visit it, blink, manage, display at your time. 397 00:42:17.040 --> 00:42:19.620 Ralf Koller: and you have the active tab 398 00:42:21.430 --> 00:42:23.740 illustrated on the links 399 00:42:24.720 --> 00:42:27.600 Ralf Koller: page of the rotor. So you 400 00:42:28.100 --> 00:42:32.580 Ralf Koller: basically are able to chop it together. But 401 00:42:33.220 --> 00:42:36.289 Ralf Koller: the items in links menu heading level 2 voice ever off. 402 00:42:37.560 --> 00:42:40.670 Ralf Koller: 1 Si have to re-plug in. 403 00:42:44.490 --> 00:42:47.500 Ralf Koller: but based on 404 00:42:47.570 --> 00:43:02.600 Ralf Koller: weakc. Success. Criterion 2, 5, 2, and 2 2, 4, 2, and 2, 4, 6, 2 for 2 refers to the title, and 2 for 6 refers to the H one. 405 00:43:02.730 --> 00:43:12.529 Ralf Koller: the h, one based on 2, 2, 4, 6 should be basically descriptive enough 406 00:43:12.670 --> 00:43:15.619 Ralf Koller: to know what the page is 407 00:43:15.790 --> 00:43:23.730 Ralf Koller: basically about and due to the fact that the each tab is an 408 00:43:25.180 --> 00:43:27.840 Ralf Koller: page on its own. 409 00:43:29.500 --> 00:43:37.729 Ralf Koller: it doesn't entail as well, manage, form, display, manage fields, edit, manage permissions and translate content type. So an 410 00:43:37.830 --> 00:43:41.129 Ralf Koller: general article H, one 411 00:43:41.390 --> 00:43:42.210 Ralf Koller: for 412 00:43:42.890 --> 00:43:48.520 Ralf Koller: screen reader, users might be problematic. But I'm not entirely sure 413 00:43:48.930 --> 00:44:01.890 Aaron McHale: that's like, do we? and so do we not put the for the secondary row of tabs? It looks like we're not putting that in the or in the page title 414 00:44:02.510 --> 00:44:06.029 Ralf Koller: so far, not. It's it's something we've missed back then. 415 00:44:07.550 --> 00:44:08.720 Ralf Koller: and 416 00:44:10.730 --> 00:44:16.959 Ralf Koller: it's something different. If in case manage, display, default is active, or. 417 00:44:17.410 --> 00:44:24.870 Ralf Koller: as you can see, the path changes for full content, or for Rss or for Tsa. So it's basically a different page. 418 00:44:25.870 --> 00:44:35.450 Aaron McHale: Right? So I'm wondering if that is something we, you know, maybe we should also include information about the secondary level of local tasks 419 00:44:36.510 --> 00:44:38.579 Aaron McHale: in addition to the First Level. 420 00:44:38.710 --> 00:44:40.679 Ralf Koller: That is something I was thinking about. 421 00:44:40.730 --> 00:44:41.760 Ralf Koller: But yeah. 422 00:44:44.140 --> 00:44:58.159 Aaron McHale: so we are about two-thirds away through the meeting. And it would be good to maybe have some kind of you know. Sense of of what best use of time would be for today? 423 00:44:58.470 --> 00:45:01.089 Aaron McHale: Is there specific things that 424 00:45:01.160 --> 00:45:08.169 Aaron McHale: we need a consensus on at this meeting? Or do we is, do we really just want to get 425 00:45:08.470 --> 00:45:11.569 Aaron McHale: affirm that that we're on the right direction with this? 426 00:45:20.730 --> 00:45:28.699 Lauri Eskola: So this is one of the usability improvements that we are targeting for 10.2, some from that perspective 427 00:45:29.400 --> 00:45:31.030 Lauri Eskola: getting guidance 428 00:45:31.390 --> 00:45:34.390 Lauri Eskola: if the team wants to weigh in on it 429 00:45:34.630 --> 00:45:39.469 Lauri Eskola: earlier would be earlier the better. Of course, we do have 430 00:45:40.050 --> 00:45:48.329 Lauri Eskola: feedback from the accessibility topic, maintainer and Usability topic Maintainer is already. So from that perspective, it's not strictly required. 431 00:45:51.540 --> 00:45:52.320 Aaron McHale: Okay. 432 00:45:55.730 --> 00:45:58.730 Aaron McHale: so, but I think any feedback would be appreciated. 433 00:45:58.840 --> 00:46:00.040 Lauri Eskola: The approach. 434 00:46:02.760 --> 00:46:20.600 Aaron McHale: Okay, so I guess for you know, for for people here do we have a consensus that the the this approach is is a good way forward. Thomas, how? How are you? How are you feeling about this at the moment? Because obviously, you were raising some potential concerns earlier. 435 00:46:22.430 --> 00:46:26.550 Lauri Eskola: Should we take a look at some of the cleaned up titles? Maybe. First. 436 00:46:26.750 --> 00:46:28.209 Aaron McHale: sure. Yeah, that helps. Yeah. 437 00:46:29.060 --> 00:46:30.260 Ralf Koller: Where should I go? 438 00:46:31.440 --> 00:46:35.309 Lauri Eskola: They are in the spreadsheet. I created a new column in there. 439 00:46:37.740 --> 00:46:44.480 Lauri Eskola: It's not all cleaned up yet. There's a lot of rows, but I sort of tried to do a quick 440 00:46:46.200 --> 00:46:47.939 Lauri Eskola: clean up on some of them. 441 00:47:13.040 --> 00:47:22.989 Aaron McHale: Ralph, the we're not seeing this spreadsheet. The the multiple monitors strike again. 442 00:47:25.930 --> 00:47:26.790 Ralf Koller: stuck. 443 00:47:35.150 --> 00:47:38.720 Ralf Koller: the window gets unresponsive. That would work 444 00:47:52.710 --> 00:47:55.639 Ralf Koller: 1 Si make the first 445 00:47:57.400 --> 00:48:01.839 Ralf Koller: view freeze plus column. Also 446 00:48:03.820 --> 00:48:05.149 Ralf Koller: that way. Okay. 447 00:48:12.850 --> 00:48:15.860 Aaron McHale: okay, so what would you suggest? We focus on 448 00:48:18.130 --> 00:48:29.580 Lauri Eskola: we could take a look at the field you once, for example. Because if that was one of the ones where they were were concerns about specific display modes or view modes. 449 00:48:30.460 --> 00:48:35.680 Lauri Eskola: So if you look at the h one after follow up. So that's kind of just 450 00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:38.669 Lauri Eskola: now my opinions on what I think 451 00:48:38.940 --> 00:48:44.380 Lauri Eskola: the H. One should look like after we've removed all of the overrides and made them consistent. 452 00:48:49.760 --> 00:48:56.029 Aaron McHale: and the obviously that that after the Colon would be visually hidden. Is that right? 453 00:48:56.840 --> 00:48:58.130 Lauri Eskola: Yes, yes. 454 00:48:59.130 --> 00:49:01.999 Aaron McHale: or the colon itself is also hidden. Yes. 455 00:49:03.250 --> 00:49:07.329 Aaron McHale: so we can think of like. For instance, we're the one kind of 456 00:49:07.410 --> 00:49:13.229 Aaron McHale: there about contact form. We can see that in that case, visual 457 00:49:13.730 --> 00:49:19.239 Aaron McHale: view is just contact form across all the tabs and the tab names obviously 458 00:49:19.370 --> 00:49:23.090 Aaron McHale: have the specific tab. 459 00:49:23.600 --> 00:49:29.989 Aaron McHale: is there? Do you have one for the page title, or is, do you know how the column for that. 460 00:49:31.110 --> 00:49:38.600 Lauri Eskola: Well, it would follow the same pattern. It would be like the other way around. 461 00:49:41.380 --> 00:49:52.540 Aaron McHale: See, I guess my my specific recommendation would be to also include, yeah, the secondary level of tabs. In addition to the primary one. So where we have, for instance, 462 00:49:52.980 --> 00:50:02.850 Aaron McHale: manage farm display. Let's say we we would also have. We could also have the the fact that you know the first tab is default, and the next tab might be teaser, you know. So 463 00:50:03.120 --> 00:50:06.670 Aaron McHale: But again, providing that context for 464 00:50:06.760 --> 00:50:12.600 Aaron McHale: screen iter users. And in the in the page title as well. 465 00:50:14.000 --> 00:50:21.159 Lauri Eskola: yeah, that would be in the page title as well, because the page title for that specific page would be managed managed displayer. 466 00:50:22.190 --> 00:50:25.190 Aaron McHale: So it would be done in the page title as well. 467 00:50:25.530 --> 00:50:33.010 Aaron McHale: yeah. And yeah, I was thinking, yeah, like, you've got there. So did you just add those there, Ralph? Yeah. 468 00:50:33.520 --> 00:50:48.450 Lauri Eskola: the title section is like still with the original titles, right? So this it will be the H. One after furloughs, but you would have to reverse like you would have to change the order of those 2, 469 00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:58.000 Ralf Koller: you would you also write the the title as article managed, display 470 00:50:59.300 --> 00:51:02.140 Ralf Koller: drupal. or keep it front-loaded? 471 00:51:03.670 --> 00:51:13.409 Lauri Eskola: cause I'm still not a fan fro with that, with the order of what's in the h, one with the article manage, display. 472 00:51:14.170 --> 00:51:16.310 Ralf Koller: Let's having 473 00:51:16.880 --> 00:51:21.090 Ralf Koller: in every line the same first one or 2 474 00:51:21.510 --> 00:51:28.289 Ralf Koller: words identical and redundant. across, for example, a content type. 475 00:51:31.090 --> 00:51:32.639 Ralf Koller: Yes, I'm not sure. 476 00:51:33.070 --> 00:51:35.789 Lauri Eskola: And 10, 477 00:51:35.800 --> 00:51:37.790 Ralf Koller: one other detail 478 00:51:39.800 --> 00:51:49.460 Ralf Koller: wouldn't for the edit tab. I would add something like settings or configuration, or edit, or something like that, that 479 00:51:50.090 --> 00:51:57.279 Ralf Koller: at the moment it's just article without any context, cause you're able to do something there on that page. 480 00:51:59.610 --> 00:52:01.799 Aaron McHale: Yeah, Thomas, do you want to come in? 481 00:52:03.330 --> 00:52:20.640 Thomas Howell: Yeah. So, listening to what Ralph's saying, I both agree and disagree, which is not very useful. But the issue that I'm I'm seeing is when you're front loading the information. 482 00:52:20.650 --> 00:52:35.279 Thomas Howell: it gives you the context of where you are, and you're going largest to smallest which also matches the path. However, looking specifically at line 38, for instance, where it says article. 483 00:52:35.550 --> 00:52:44.259 Thomas Howell: and we look at the title for article article is all the information that you really have in the path. 484 00:52:44.300 --> 00:52:48.759 Thomas Howell: and the title expands upon that. To tell you what you are doing 485 00:52:49.060 --> 00:53:01.080 Thomas Howell: at that location. So the title of the page is more than just article. It's telling you more. And then when you get over to the after follow ups 486 00:53:01.510 --> 00:53:09.560 Thomas Howell: when we pointed, or when Ralph pointed out that article was insufficient, because article at that point is matching path. 487 00:53:09.760 --> 00:53:20.469 Thomas Howell: But it's overly simplified form doesn't have the contextual information visible to a cited user in the title. 488 00:53:21.490 --> 00:53:44.020 Thomas Howell: Taking those 2 concepts and trying to figure out how to do them consistently, because that's what I was trying to express earlier in title it's an opinion that someone is expressing Wh. How to transform article as the path into the title, to tell you what you're doing on the page, which is an expanded form. 489 00:53:44.140 --> 00:53:55.070 Thomas Howell: Information when we get to the H. One it's supposed to be for the non cited reason, or 490 00:53:55.840 --> 00:53:57.660 Thomas Howell: for the 491 00:53:57.670 --> 00:54:04.000 Thomas Howell: users using the the visually hidden H. One. 492 00:54:04.180 --> 00:54:05.740 Thomas Howell: It gives 493 00:54:06.060 --> 00:54:13.940 Thomas Howell: different information for 38, and that follows the pattern for the exceptions, for things like books in lines 22, and 23. 494 00:54:14.160 --> 00:54:17.300 Thomas Howell: I don't know if 495 00:54:17.700 --> 00:54:22.530 Thomas Howell: what the experience is like on the page when you're doing 496 00:54:23.100 --> 00:54:26.809 Thomas Howell: the visually hidden view of the H. One. 497 00:54:27.140 --> 00:54:43.419 Thomas Howell: do they? Does a user need to know article first, because that's the context. Or do they need to know? Rss. Full content, so that they don't have to listen to from a reader? 498 00:54:43.980 --> 00:54:51.109 Thomas Howell: all of the information like II don't know. Is it? Is there meaning to just say, Rss. 499 00:54:51.520 --> 00:55:02.310 Thomas Howell: or is Rss meaningless without article managed display. Rss. Like what do like, I understand? Wanting to move Rss. 500 00:55:02.640 --> 00:55:05.349 Thomas Howell: To the left. So it's the first thing mentioned. 501 00:55:05.850 --> 00:55:15.269 Thomas Howell: But does that have the consequence of? Do we still need to have all of the information? Or is there more information than we need? And, 502 00:55:15.310 --> 00:55:37.240 Thomas Howell: how consistent do we need to be in doing this like? Do we have to have the pattern operating the same in all non exception instances? Or is this something where it's different for different things? Because we are manually making title different for different things because it isn't programmatic. The title is 503 00:55:37.340 --> 00:55:39.930 Thomas Howell: human intervention. 504 00:55:40.080 --> 00:55:50.819 Thomas Howell: And so does that mean when we look at the H. One after follow-ups. Do we need to be responding to that human intervention of edit article content type rather than just saying article. 505 00:55:53.470 --> 00:55:54.250 Thomas Howell: thank you. 506 00:55:59.340 --> 00:56:09.049 Aaron McHale: See, in the chat Emma has also put, is there an option to test with a user in context of completing a task using screen reader to navigate? 507 00:56:10.130 --> 00:56:14.749 Emma Horrell: Yeah, Aaron. I just put that in because it can help when you 508 00:56:15.090 --> 00:56:18.130 Emma Horrell: yeah, as Thomas has just said, when it's 509 00:56:18.440 --> 00:56:19.740 Emma Horrell: the question of 510 00:56:19.800 --> 00:56:27.480 Emma Horrell: what is the like. I, personally don't have experience of using a screen reader to navigate, so I wouldn't feel qualified to say whether 511 00:56:27.940 --> 00:56:32.240 Emma Horrell: one approach would be better than another. So often. It can help if you 512 00:56:32.950 --> 00:56:41.400 Emma Horrell: have got that evidence. But it can be quite hard to get as well. I know from our experience working in the university. So it's just an idea 513 00:56:42.650 --> 00:56:47.050 Lauri Eskola: we could try to get that because I think we have some contacts. And this is 514 00:56:47.590 --> 00:56:51.730 Lauri Eskola: significant enough issue that it could, you know, benefit. 515 00:56:51.870 --> 00:56:54.610 Lauri Eskola: there would be enough value in in that? 516 00:56:56.300 --> 00:56:58.620 Emma Horrell: I think that would be useful. Yeah. 517 00:56:58.820 --> 00:56:59.710 Aaron McHale: I'm 518 00:57:00.030 --> 00:57:04.939 Aaron McHale: also my mindful that we're approaching the hour I've tried to. 519 00:57:05.210 --> 00:57:07.129 Aaron McHale: because I think one of the things that 520 00:57:07.190 --> 00:57:34.779 Aaron McHale: and I might fall off of everything all the feedback that people have given so far. One of the things that I think would be useful of this is for us to either, if we can agree on some guiding principles, or or sort of yes, some sort of general rule of thumb, or am I trying to say pattern? That's the word I was looking for? So I've I've I've drafted kind of 2 statements, and I'm putting them in. Look at them in the chat. 521 00:57:35.030 --> 00:57:38.509 and maybe actually, I'll put them separately, and 522 00:57:38.610 --> 00:57:46.619 Aaron McHale: the first one is The first one is the visual h, one should be consistent across all primary and secondary tabs. 523 00:57:46.740 --> 00:57:49.140 Aaron McHale: and the second statement is 524 00:57:49.310 --> 00:57:57.250 Aaron McHale: the visually hidden H. One. So for screen readers and others, and the page title should always should always. 525 00:57:57.610 --> 00:58:03.579 Aaron McHale: and Mr. Ward should always contain the information from the active and 526 00:58:03.750 --> 00:58:07.739 Aaron McHale: the the active, primary and secondary tab. 527 00:58:08.190 --> 00:58:15.570 Aaron McHale: I feel like from from hearing everybody. That may be a that may be something we can all agree on 528 00:58:16.320 --> 00:58:20.090 Aaron McHale: Does anybody have any objections to those statements? 529 00:58:20.650 --> 00:58:32.620 Aaron McHale: Or is everybody kind of broadly in favor? Because that might be something that we can. We can at least help by using these to push the issue forward. And I see Ralph and Thomas are getting thumbs up to plus ones to those. 530 00:58:35.260 --> 00:58:42.120 Aaron McHale: And Emma, and Laurie. Okay, that sounds like a a consensus that we have there. 531 00:58:42.600 --> 00:58:46.110 Aaron McHale: And I wondering actually. 532 00:58:48.130 --> 00:58:54.130 Aaron McHale: I think, that broadly aligns with, because I think the only difference from what we're seeing here is basically to also include 533 00:58:54.980 --> 00:59:05.680 Aaron McHale: include the the active, you know, secondary tab and and also include you know, like you've done there, Ralph, with with articles, say also edit. 534 00:59:05.700 --> 00:59:23.940 Aaron McHale: But again, I think that would. We would want that to be consistent personally, I'd want that to be consistent with the tab name, because, you know, if you're a screening reader user and you come across the title and then you come across a tab with a different name that says Active, that could that could be confusing. Because you think, okay, if the title says this 535 00:59:24.060 --> 00:59:35.470 Aaron McHale: and I'm on an active tab that has, you know, it's important that that active tab, then, has this essentially the same information in it. So it's easy for you to to make that connection like, okay, this is the active tab. I'm on. 536 00:59:35.600 --> 00:59:40.850 Aaron McHale: so I think, yeah, it sounds like we've got some kind of consensus. There 537 00:59:42.470 --> 00:59:43.750 Aaron McHale: is 538 00:59:43.830 --> 00:59:49.270 Ralf Koller: just just one just one suggestion and addition, because I'm 539 00:59:49.680 --> 00:59:50.980 Ralf Koller: still 540 00:59:52.130 --> 00:59:57.929 Ralf Koller: don't really, not a fan of not front loading it like in the what's currently in the H one. But. 541 00:59:58.310 --> 01:00:01.060 Ralf Koller: as Emma suggested, 542 01:00:02.680 --> 01:00:04.930 Ralf Koller: would it be possible to test 543 01:00:05.280 --> 01:00:09.310 Ralf Koller: both variants, one front loaded one and one, and 544 01:00:09.430 --> 01:00:10.500 Ralf Koller: basically. 545 01:00:10.740 --> 01:00:25.299 Ralf Koller: in one word keep title and H. One consistent from the order and test it one time, front loaded, and the other time the other way around with screen, reader users and then decide on their feedback 546 01:00:25.420 --> 01:00:27.129 Ralf Koller: which road to take. 547 01:00:27.720 --> 01:00:33.919 Lauri Eskola: Yeah, I think that's probably like AV testing your just let give it one user the chance. That's both. 548 01:00:33.940 --> 01:00:36.730 Lauri Eskola: Until which one they would prefer. 549 01:00:37.170 --> 01:00:42.820 Ralf Koller: Yep, because my suggestion in regards of the front loading was based on 550 01:00:43.810 --> 01:00:45.420 Ralf Koller: a 551 01:00:45.890 --> 01:00:58.089 Ralf Koller: a study from Chini reddish as well as from anise Norman group where it's recommended to front load also. How people read a report, and 552 01:00:58.170 --> 01:01:01.240 Ralf Koller: that was my my reasoning 553 01:01:01.460 --> 01:01:03.359 Ralf Koller: based on. But well. 554 01:01:03.710 --> 01:01:10.089 Ralf Koller: if actual screen reader uses of triple prefer the other way around. I'm also fine with it. 555 01:01:10.450 --> 01:01:21.109 Ralf Koller: but I would test it and keep it consistent, because at the moment in the State, like its currently is with titles front loaded and H. One the other way around. I consider it 556 01:01:21.890 --> 01:01:24.340 Ralf Koller: confusing and and inconsistent. 557 01:01:26.800 --> 01:01:40.520 Aaron McHale: II would I leaning towards seconding that because, yeah, again, thinking about the consistency. And you know. providing a 558 01:01:40.930 --> 01:01:43.979 Aaron McHale: what is the word I'm looking for like 559 01:01:45.680 --> 01:02:01.319 Aaron McHale: oh, that's that's what II cannot remember. The harder was trying to use there. But yeah, providing that consistency between the title and the and the tab. You know, Prov, linking those together so that the user is is really clear about where they are 560 01:02:01.470 --> 01:02:04.350 Aaron McHale: in the navigation of the in the hierarchy. 561 01:02:05.570 --> 01:02:12.989 Aaron McHale: But yeah, it sounds like we've got some good steps there, and obviously we are. We've only got a few minutes left. 562 01:02:13.040 --> 01:02:18.230 Aaron McHale: So are there any any final comments at the moment? 563 01:02:19.540 --> 01:02:34.700 Thomas Howell: II have a small one, but I see Ralph's hands still up. Oops. No sorry. I'm still a little concerned about what I think of as the depth issue, but kind of doing it in reverse depth, going from right to left 564 01:02:35.000 --> 01:02:41.190 Thomas Howell: in that. It isn't always super clear to me when you look at the path itself 565 01:02:41.260 --> 01:02:42.709 Thomas Howell: and you go 566 01:02:42.820 --> 01:02:48.269 Thomas Howell: there's some paths where it seems like it's going several levels deeper. 567 01:02:49.060 --> 01:03:12.440 Thomas Howell: And I just didn't see super consistency between the title and the path everywhere, and I don't know if that's part of this issue or not. Or if we're really just looking at existing titles, and we're cleaning up the in regards to the existing titles. Or if we're looking at titles as well, and trying to say, How are we being consistent with titles? 568 01:03:16.550 --> 01:03:20.799 Lauri Eskola: So I think that the this issue specifically is just about. 569 01:03:20.940 --> 01:03:29.639 Lauri Eskola: how does the ui decide to render the page titles. And so it's not even about changing the specific titles of of pages per se. 570 01:03:29.670 --> 01:03:42.970 Lauri Eskola: like the changes happening in the title block. And it's that we decide that we are using different information from the system to generate the and then the follow up issue would be then to figure out. 571 01:03:43.090 --> 01:03:46.029 Lauri Eskola: what do we want to feed that algorithm 572 01:03:47.490 --> 01:03:49.730 Lauri Eskola: follow up is about the title. 573 01:03:50.070 --> 01:03:58.060 Lauri Eskola: Yeah, the follow up itself is about like, what should this specific controller, this specific feed 574 01:03:58.110 --> 01:03:59.230 Lauri Eskola: you dot 575 01:03:59.870 --> 01:04:12.110 Ralf Koller: So basically, in this issue, the underlying infrastructure is built or reshaped, and the actual output 576 01:04:12.230 --> 01:04:14.890 Ralf Koller: is then decided on in follow-up issues. 577 01:04:15.260 --> 01:04:18.440 Lauri Eskola: Yes, or like, we will change the 578 01:04:18.900 --> 01:04:25.400 Lauri Eskola: it will be rendering basically what we have in under Cp column. When we add the infrastructure in place. 579 01:04:25.580 --> 01:04:34.399 Lauri Eskola: but then we can go like one section at a time to fix them and make them make sense. It's good to take a look at it from. 580 01:04:34.550 --> 01:04:39.489 Lauri Eskola: I guess the broader perspective to make sure that we are making them consistent 581 01:04:40.050 --> 01:04:41.390 Lauri Eskola: across the board. 582 01:04:43.270 --> 01:04:44.070 Aaron McHale: Yep. 583 01:04:44.240 --> 01:04:59.939 Thomas Howell: this is self interested at this point. But I. The other issue I wanted to talk about today was from last week, and it's the drupalisms when we talk about title. So in the follow up issue. Will it 584 01:04:59.990 --> 01:05:16.449 Thomas Howell: potentially be important to understand what may or may not be a drupalism when we're talking about what those final titles are that we want to feed to the H. One is is that something we should consider? Or is that is that a follow up? Follow up where we want to go through and 585 01:05:16.530 --> 01:05:24.480 Thomas Howell: do a follow up and fix everything, and then maybe consider how the language may or may not be 586 01:05:24.520 --> 01:05:27.010 Thomas Howell: drupal island-specific. 587 01:05:29.300 --> 01:05:40.019 Lauri Eskola: I think we probably have several different kinds of follow ups where we have one square. It's clearly just removing excessive information like information that is not needed 588 01:05:40.160 --> 01:05:42.670 Lauri Eskola: in the title. And then we're probably gonna have 589 01:05:42.680 --> 01:05:53.079 Lauri Eskola: things that are about the drupalisms like we have one of the issues about like the manage display and manage foreign display and all of that. 590 01:05:53.270 --> 01:05:59.729 Lauri Eskola: I don't know. Like, maybe there's a step that we do before, so that we can make some incremental progress. But yeah. 591 01:05:59.870 --> 01:06:07.689 Lauri Eskola: so maybe it is that that idea of like follow up, follow up where we have several things happening, because it's much easier 592 01:06:08.190 --> 01:06:12.140 Lauri Eskola: to to make progress when you when you work on golf scope issues. 593 01:06:12.960 --> 01:06:37.399 Aaron McHale: And yeah, and it's it's also worth keeping. Mind. There are other things going on around the admin ui like. There's the the effort to kind of reorganize and reshape the the ho, the whole, the structure as a whole. So there are other other factors will come into play. We are just past the hour. So I do. I'm keen to bring this to a close. It sounds like we've got some good we've we've managed to get a couple of good sort of overall guiding principles here, and also 594 01:06:37.410 --> 01:06:56.020 Aaron McHale: one specific action that could be taken around doing some testing with screen reader users around from loading. And I'm I'm assuming, Laurie. I know that they do have some user testing they're doing in this piece. The the solve area. Is that right? So maybe that is that's something that you're happy to take away and and see if could be done. 595 01:06:56.390 --> 01:07:01.850 Lauri Eskola: Yeah, I'm gonna research in the next few weeks. If it's something we could, we could do. 596 01:07:01.910 --> 01:07:03.530 Aaron McHale: Okay, yeah. 597 01:07:04.230 --> 01:07:28.580 Aaron McHale: cool. Yeah, I'll let let you know if I need any help with that. Okay, great. And yeah. Obviously, we, I'm sure we could keep with video. We can continue this discussion next week. If people want to come back with them, you know. I know. Yeah, Thomas, your can talk about the tripleism some things, but then I I'll I'll share those 2 things I feel I'll put them in slack. So we've got them. And but yeah, thank you, everybody for coming today. I think this was a good. 598 01:07:28.580 --> 01:07:34.850 Aaron McHale: a good meeting, and that we will be back next week, and I think Benji will be back as well, so 599 01:07:34.930 --> 01:07:35.770 Aaron McHale: great 600 01:07:36.780 --> 01:07:39.180 Lauri Eskola: thanks for hosting the meeting, Aaron. 601 01:07:39.610 --> 01:07:45.850 Emma Horrell: Thank you, thank you, Aaron, and thanks. Everyone have a nice weekend.