WEBVTT 74 00:10:16.100 --> 00:10:23.209 Benji Fisher: welcome. This is the drupal usability meeting for September 20 s, 2,023. I'm Benji Fisher moderating. 75 00:10:23.460 --> 00:10:28.969 Benji Fisher: And also here are Ralph Kohler, who's sharing a screen and we'll start off the discussion. 76 00:10:29.220 --> 00:10:34.749 Benji Fisher: Aaron Mikkel, Emma Harrell, Simo Helston, and Thomas Howell. Thanks all for coming 77 00:10:35.620 --> 00:10:36.630 and go ahead, Ralph. 78 00:10:39.590 --> 00:10:51.459 Ralf Koller: We're taking a look at allow to chase filter blocks and regions on the block layout administration page. The issue number is 3, 2, 7, 3, 1, 7, 3. 79 00:10:51.850 --> 00:10:54.210 Ralf Koller: the issue 80 00:10:55.580 --> 00:10:57.840 Ralf Koller: basically has one 81 00:10:57.930 --> 00:11:03.069 Ralf Koller: technical problem that is due to the fact that they are moving away from Jake Quarry. 82 00:11:04.780 --> 00:11:07.139 Ralf Koller: And you will notice the 83 00:11:07.550 --> 00:11:11.029 Ralf Koller: issue when we're taking a look at it. 84 00:11:12.670 --> 00:11:17.110 Ralf Koller: Basically what the issue is about. It is just 85 00:11:18.260 --> 00:11:30.060 Ralf Koller: reload the page. It is just adding a filter to the blog layout page in case you have tens or hundreds of blocks 86 00:11:30.340 --> 00:11:32.090 Ralf Koller: created. 87 00:11:32.190 --> 00:11:36.270 Ralf Koller: And then it's quite challenging 88 00:11:36.620 --> 00:11:37.940 Ralf Koller: to find your way 89 00:11:38.120 --> 00:11:42.130 Ralf Koller: or find a particular blog on that page. 90 00:11:43.350 --> 00:11:48.530 Ralf Koller: I quickly just demonstrate functionality 91 00:11:50.440 --> 00:11:52.610 Ralf Koller: location. And then 92 00:11:52.690 --> 00:11:54.400 Ralf Koller: you basically have that 93 00:11:54.880 --> 00:11:59.750 Ralf Koller: filtered and stripped down. 94 00:12:00.410 --> 00:12:05.680 Ralf Koller: Just wanted to illustrate the only problem I see. 95 00:12:06.630 --> 00:12:15.020 Ralf Koller: yeah, menu. 96 00:12:15.410 --> 00:12:16.110 this 97 00:12:16.300 --> 00:12:19.560 Ralf Koller: basically. 98 00:12:22.830 --> 00:12:31.649 Ralf Koller: you're able to move everything around. Problem is with the filtering. 99 00:12:31.810 --> 00:12:36.450 Ralf Koller: You only see the categories, names 100 00:12:37.260 --> 00:12:39.699 Ralf Koller: of categories that have a block 101 00:12:39.880 --> 00:12:43.270 Ralf Koller: that is matching the filter criteria in it. 102 00:12:43.760 --> 00:12:50.760 Ralf Koller: Problem is, if you change, for example, here in the select field to header, then it's 103 00:12:50.820 --> 00:12:57.000 Ralf Koller: somewhere outside, or if you change it underneath. Then you see, secondary menu. 104 00:12:57.290 --> 00:13:08.239 Ralf Koller: It's user account menu and main menu. So you just notice on the second look that it's basically in different regions that 105 00:13:08.270 --> 00:13:10.710 Ralf Koller: I consider sort of 106 00:13:11.720 --> 00:13:12.940 Ralf Koller: problematic 107 00:13:13.160 --> 00:13:18.780 Ralf Koller: and the other detail I've noticed is. 108 00:13:19.940 --> 00:13:23.180 Ralf Koller: or is there any questions before that? 109 00:13:27.890 --> 00:13:29.060 Benji Fisher: Go ahead, Thomas? 110 00:13:29.780 --> 00:13:37.009 Thomas Howell: It's not clear to me when we're looking at primary and secondary menus. Are there other 111 00:13:37.330 --> 00:13:44.110 Thomas Howell: is it? Are there other elements under primary? Was was main navigation. The only thing under primary. 112 00:13:46.200 --> 00:13:49.720 Ralf Koller: In that case primary was the only one. 113 00:13:51.460 --> 00:13:54.989 Thomas Howell: but secondary. Looks like it had 2 things on it. 114 00:13:55.500 --> 00:14:07.550 Thomas Howell: Oh, but that one of them was the one that we're moving around. I was just thinking, like, if we looked at highlight, if you, if it shows a hundred percent or some portion of the things highlighted, for instance. 115 00:14:10.790 --> 00:14:16.260 Simo Hellsten: maybe filter with primary primary. Then we can see this, too. 116 00:14:21.950 --> 00:14:27.739 Thomas Howell: Could you try just highlighted for me? Because I do. I want to see when we when it filters on. 117 00:14:28.130 --> 00:14:32.100 Thomas Howell: the block I thought it was must be able to do the block group 118 00:14:35.150 --> 00:14:37.770 Simo Hellsten: It doesn't seem to filter religions. 119 00:14:38.440 --> 00:14:39.650 Simo Hellsten: Okay? 120 00:14:39.690 --> 00:14:45.260 Ralf Koller: I thought in a previous patch, it worked that also, the filtering was based on the regions as well. 121 00:14:46.020 --> 00:14:50.319 Thomas Howell: Yeah. When you scroll to the top again. I'm so sorry. 122 00:14:50.390 --> 00:14:52.129 To the filter. 123 00:14:52.600 --> 00:14:53.770 Ralf Koller: Okay. 124 00:14:54.110 --> 00:15:00.629 Thomas Howell: because it says block category, there is that. Oh, category's different than region. 125 00:15:01.710 --> 00:15:06.799 Thomas Howell: yeah, category is one of the column matters. Yeah. I guess 126 00:15:07.110 --> 00:15:16.250 Thomas Howell: Category to me is less useful than region. Because, let's say, you had a very long like highlighted had 15 127 00:15:16.490 --> 00:15:39.859 Thomas Howell: menu items. And you wanted to just get to that and move things. Or is the working assumption that you're going to scroll down, anyway, I to me, that's a a second problem. But I would wanna be able to to filter upon region as well. So that I'm just looking at the secondary menu, or just looking at highlighted, so that if I wanted to move something, or if you you 128 00:15:40.010 --> 00:15:47.810 Thomas Howell: have secondary and primary regions. If you wanted to move things between secondary and primary regions, that's all you were filtered on. 129 00:15:48.300 --> 00:15:57.090 Thomas Howell: But II was incorrectly understanding category. I didn't notice that category was a tag rather than an actual region. 130 00:15:59.140 --> 00:16:01.959 Benji Fisher: Yeah, the region is the main sort 131 00:16:02.130 --> 00:16:03.429 Benji Fisher: on the page. 132 00:16:03.750 --> 00:16:04.980 Benji Fisher: So 133 00:16:06.270 --> 00:16:09.890 Benji Fisher: you know, just by scrolling, you can find the right region. You want 134 00:16:10.020 --> 00:16:20.540 Thomas Howell: it. It's for things like primary and secondary menu are put together. But if you were to build menus that did not necessarily have their 135 00:16:20.710 --> 00:16:21.970 Thomas Howell: regions 136 00:16:22.310 --> 00:16:28.670 Thomas Howell: adjacent to one another. But you wanted to move items between those regions that doesn't necessarily work. 137 00:16:35.430 --> 00:16:38.269 Benji Fisher: But, Ralph, you say that a an earlier version 138 00:16:38.530 --> 00:16:46.439 Benji Fisher: of the issue did allow you to sort to to filter on region. I think it did, but I'm not entirely sure. 139 00:16:50.210 --> 00:16:54.060 Ralf Koller: but at the moment it does not. So I guess 140 00:16:54.860 --> 00:16:55.870 Benji Fisher: I mean the 141 00:16:56.570 --> 00:17:00.759 Benji Fisher: the the problem with that is that if you have lots of 142 00:17:00.780 --> 00:17:12.170 Benji Fisher: blocks. Then, presumably, there's at least one region that has lots of blocks, and if that region happens to map what you're trying to filter on. then you'll see everything in that region. 143 00:17:12.589 --> 00:17:15.530 Ralf Koller: and the filtering becomes less effective. 144 00:17:15.849 --> 00:17:16.990 Benji Fisher: So 145 00:17:17.250 --> 00:17:25.879 Thomas Howell: II would have had to filter like II would have had a reach and drop down filter, and then the free form for the blocks and categories. 146 00:17:26.690 --> 00:17:36.309 Thomas Howell: though category could also have been some sort of dropdown as well, because they're fixed. The block names 147 00:17:36.470 --> 00:17:43.179 Thomas Howell: that that makes sense to me that you're not necessarily that you want to have a 148 00:17:43.230 --> 00:17:44.339 a free 149 00:17:44.410 --> 00:17:47.099 Thomas Howell: text search field or filter field. 150 00:17:47.500 --> 00:17:50.889 Thomas Howell: But the region at minimum could be a drop down. 151 00:17:50.930 --> 00:17:53.039 Thomas Howell: So a second piece of the filter. 152 00:17:55.360 --> 00:18:01.530 Benji Fisher: yeah, I guess. Those of us who have been doing drupal for a while, are familiar with all all sorts of 153 00:18:01.830 --> 00:18:09.920 Benji Fisher: filters like on on the content page. You can filter by type or by taxonomy term and and all sorts of things. 154 00:18:09.980 --> 00:18:11.500 Benji Fisher: And I guess these 155 00:18:11.980 --> 00:18:18.790 Benji Fisher: sort of more common approach these days is so people just want a single text box that they can type into to 156 00:18:19.210 --> 00:18:20.840 Benji Fisher: to search your filter. 157 00:18:20.890 --> 00:18:37.780 Thomas Howell: Yeah, I mean, we could test with one of those you could test with the the someone working against the Admin menu with a lot of modules installed, or something, and just see if they needed to move things around. How it worked for them in some sort of usability, testing 158 00:18:39.380 --> 00:18:51.510 Simo Hellsten: a kind of mist when we could see with Group O 5, I think we could see where the regions are located on the block's page. But it's not really not possible. 159 00:18:51.840 --> 00:19:07.889 Simo Hellsten: When we have separate admin men, it's better better this way, usually. But yeah, I was thinking, what is the use case for this future? Because it's very misleading. If we want to reorder stuff. 160 00:19:08.340 --> 00:19:17.589 Simo Hellsten: because, yeah, for the obvious reasons that it hides hides the pot different parts, but it also hides kind of if we want to order. 161 00:19:17.730 --> 00:19:35.530 Simo Hellsten: we we want to locate, search, pro, form narrow, and we want to like move more the move it's very like move. Change the order inside primary Mary menu. Then again, whatever we then we have to filter, we find, yeah, it's there. Then 162 00:19:35.690 --> 00:19:37.640 Simo Hellsten: clear the filter, and then go to 163 00:19:37.890 --> 00:19:41.009 Simo Hellsten: try to find it again by scrolling. I think 164 00:19:41.890 --> 00:19:42.580 Ralf Koller: no. 165 00:19:43.210 --> 00:19:49.439 Simo Hellsten: or most more, it would be like bit better. Example, the highlighted section. If we want to 166 00:19:49.490 --> 00:19:53.950 Simo Hellsten: move primary admin actions below status messages. 167 00:19:54.290 --> 00:19:56.770 Simo Hellsten: so future is kind of 168 00:19:57.550 --> 00:20:07.139 Simo Hellsten: it. It can all only kind of verify that we have primary admin actions there in the highlighted section. But then we have to clear and to be able to switch. 169 00:20:09.870 --> 00:20:16.179 Simo Hellsten: for instance, primarily admin actions and status messages the other way around. We can do it with the future on. 170 00:20:20.060 --> 00:20:22.299 Thomas Howell: That was real sorry. 171 00:20:23.120 --> 00:20:41.500 Aaron McHale: So I was gonna say, see, but your your point about kind of things from drupal 5. Actually, the II think it's easy to miss that rather, if you scroll up to the top of the page, there's a link that says, demonstrate block regions, and it will show you in the in the theme is that kind of what you were referring to? 172 00:20:41.620 --> 00:20:47.760 Simo Hellsten: Oh, yeah, I didn't notice that lifeboats for quite a few years. 173 00:20:48.290 --> 00:20:54.550 Aaron McHale: Yeah, maybe maybe that should be a more obvious like cause. That is a really useful link. 174 00:20:59.880 --> 00:21:01.409 Benji Fisher: Yeah. So I guess 175 00:21:01.870 --> 00:21:06.780 Benji Fisher: there are. Now at least 2 problems we've identified. 176 00:21:06.820 --> 00:21:08.910 Benji Fisher: If you want to reorder 177 00:21:09.860 --> 00:21:11.310 Benji Fisher: blocks. 178 00:21:12.180 --> 00:21:13.230 Benji Fisher: Then 179 00:21:14.240 --> 00:21:17.359 Benji Fisher: first one that that Ralph pointed out is that if you've 180 00:21:17.590 --> 00:21:20.349 Benji Fisher: filtered on block names, then 181 00:21:21.130 --> 00:21:22.750 Benji Fisher: most of the 182 00:21:22.810 --> 00:21:26.149 Benji Fisher: regions are not going to be shown. 183 00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:28.680 Benji Fisher: so it's hard to 184 00:21:29.290 --> 00:21:34.060 Benji Fisher: move it to a different region by clicking drag. Still have the dropdown list 185 00:21:34.500 --> 00:21:36.239 Benji Fisher: but 186 00:21:36.620 --> 00:21:41.580 Benji Fisher: sort of disables moving to a different region by by clicking drag. 187 00:21:42.280 --> 00:21:44.499 And as Simo points out. 188 00:21:44.870 --> 00:21:48.680 Benji Fisher: once you've found the block. 189 00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:55.899 Benji Fisher: if the if you want to move it within the region. Then you can't, because 190 00:21:56.280 --> 00:21:59.730 Benji Fisher: all the other blocks within that region have been hidden by the filter. 191 00:22:00.250 --> 00:22:01.340 Benji Fisher: So 192 00:22:02.560 --> 00:22:03.860 Benji Fisher: I think that 193 00:22:05.100 --> 00:22:09.629 Benji Fisher: fairly easy way to fix the problem Ralph mentioned. 194 00:22:09.850 --> 00:22:13.829 Benji Fisher: is not to hide any of the regions. 195 00:22:14.600 --> 00:22:16.850 Benji Fisher: and and all. 196 00:22:16.990 --> 00:22:25.880 Benji Fisher: Yeah, II guess there was another problem that Ralph pointed out. If you did move it, using the drop-down list. then 197 00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:30.950 Benji Fisher: then the region it is now in 198 00:22:31.680 --> 00:22:45.909 Benji Fisher: is is still hidden, so I think that that that also would be solved by by the same fix, by by not hiding any of the regions. problem, Ralph pointed out. I don't see any obvious solution. 199 00:22:48.980 --> 00:22:59.980 Benji Fisher: So so, Ralph, is that what you proposed in your comment? So you commented on? No, in that comment I just commented in regards of a technical issue. 200 00:23:00.220 --> 00:23:04.530 Ralf Koller: The ux-related ones I don't want it to touch. 201 00:23:05.370 --> 00:23:09.939 Ralf Koller: We have a discussion here. It was just basically if you track 202 00:23:10.080 --> 00:23:19.970 Ralf Koller: it happens that currently I'm unable to reproduce. Maybe it's meanwhile fixed problem is at 1 point after 3 or 203 00:23:20.220 --> 00:23:25.140 Ralf Koller: for or sometimes on the first click and drag 204 00:23:25.650 --> 00:23:29.839 Ralf Koller: the dragged block. 205 00:23:29.990 --> 00:23:33.219 Ralf Koller: tapped on. 206 00:23:33.320 --> 00:23:40.049 Ralf Koller: moving along the cursor in vertical. So basically, I was able to move. 1 si can 207 00:23:40.280 --> 00:23:41.790 Ralf Koller: show the video. 208 00:23:41.870 --> 00:23:50.270 Ralf Koller: 1 s. 209 00:23:58.160 --> 00:24:01.000 Ralf Koller: as you can see oops 210 00:24:03.800 --> 00:24:05.860 Ralf Koller: one click drag. 211 00:24:06.030 --> 00:24:13.769 Ralf Koller: and then I release the the button. But when I so I screw the mouse further. 212 00:24:14.160 --> 00:24:17.929 Ralf Koller: the blog moved along, and I got to type errors in the console. 213 00:24:19.690 --> 00:24:22.299 Ralf Koller: But it's a known issue, and 214 00:24:23.920 --> 00:24:26.129 Benji Fisher: and it looks like it has been fixed. 215 00:24:27.350 --> 00:24:30.019 Ralf Koller: Maybe I'm not entirely sure I have to test 216 00:24:30.200 --> 00:24:43.629 Ralf Koller: afterwards. I right before the meeting I saw that there were new changes in comets. But those are only unit tests. So I'm not sure if anything in particular changed 217 00:24:44.320 --> 00:24:47.090 Ralf Koller: in regards of the actual code there. 218 00:24:50.260 --> 00:24:51.020 Ralf Koller: Yeah. 219 00:24:51.380 --> 00:24:55.370 Simo Hellsten: I actually just realized we have that same icon when you can. 220 00:24:55.490 --> 00:25:04.050 Simo Hellsten: dragon drag inside. Here are keys, and when you can't drag here our keys. So it's kind of that kind of a misleading having that 221 00:25:04.400 --> 00:25:10.300 Simo Hellsten: left right arrow in the same icon. So it's a yeah, it doesn't. Maybe it's 222 00:25:10.460 --> 00:25:16.640 Simo Hellsten: that it doesn't really matter if it's the same on it. But it's actually different behavior. 223 00:25:16.870 --> 00:25:20.420 Simo Hellsten: When you can also drag into 224 00:25:20.700 --> 00:25:28.329 Simo Hellsten: kind of like menu items you can bring drag into hierarchy. So you can actually drag drag left on right? Also. 225 00:25:29.290 --> 00:25:33.030 Simo Hellsten: Yeah. huh? 226 00:25:34.130 --> 00:25:41.409 Ralf Koller: So you mean, basically, in that case. the more appropriate and clearer. I cannot be just 227 00:25:41.790 --> 00:25:46.290 Ralf Koller: an arrow up and down vertically and remove the horizontal. 228 00:25:46.400 --> 00:25:52.150 Simo Hellsten: Yeah. And we could use also use some kind of highlights, if you like, on hover. I think it kind of a 229 00:25:52.260 --> 00:25:54.270 Simo Hellsten: increase like, yeah. 230 00:25:54.500 --> 00:26:02.669 Simo Hellsten: So it could kind of it would be maybe too small change, but it could all only highlight the direction you can go to. 231 00:26:02.920 --> 00:26:03.620 Ralf Koller: Huh? 232 00:26:04.250 --> 00:26:08.460 Simo Hellsten: So. But that's not in this issue, but it could be something 233 00:26:11.560 --> 00:26:19.780 Simo Hellsten: it would give a little bit. Extra information. If you can go only up and down, or if you can also go left and right. 234 00:26:22.630 --> 00:26:24.030 Benji Fisher: Thomas. 235 00:26:24.860 --> 00:26:37.109 Thomas Howell: I'm still. So as we've talked through this issue, I'm still seeing a slight difference between what I talked about. And these other 2 issues 236 00:26:37.110 --> 00:26:58.300 Thomas Howell: in that I think you may have mentioned Benji. The issue of like, it's not clear what the purpose of the filter is so using this filter, is it intended for the use case of reordering? Or is it intended for the use case of simply finding a block so that you can change its region. 237 00:26:59.360 --> 00:27:03.179 Thomas Howell: or do, of one of the other operations that are available. Like. 238 00:27:03.620 --> 00:27:12.140 Thomas Howell: if the because for me, I keep on thinking. Okay, if for whatever reason, I had a bunch of different forms. 239 00:27:12.810 --> 00:27:18.820 Thomas Howell: category sections, and I wanted to move and reorder something 240 00:27:18.980 --> 00:27:31.580 Thomas Howell: between 2 different blocks or I guess. Block categories, not categories, the primary menu and secondary menu. If if the goal was to move it cleanly between them, I can't. 241 00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:37.729 Thomas Howell: I should not be reordering, because I'm not necessarily showing everything 242 00:27:37.960 --> 00:27:39.859 Thomas Howell: in that section. So 243 00:27:40.630 --> 00:27:56.220 Thomas Howell: I understand that we don't wanna recommend anything different than a single form search box, and that's okay. But then I don't know that I'd want to allow reordering. I'd want the focus to not be on reordering in that instance. 244 00:27:56.260 --> 00:28:08.210 Thomas Howell: The fact that you can do both. But you're going to get situations. If you've got a lot of blocks where you're only seeing a subset of the blocks under a particular 245 00:28:09.370 --> 00:28:10.220 Thomas Howell: block. 246 00:28:12.070 --> 00:28:15.509 Thomas Howell: The secondary menu. I don't know. We call those the the 247 00:28:16.330 --> 00:28:29.850 Thomas Howell: block, not categories, but the the bolded section under block. because, again, like you, you can filter it down and not get all of the available blocks under those 248 00:28:30.950 --> 00:28:34.839 Benji Fisher: regions. Yeah. And I guess it's our block regions. 249 00:28:35.120 --> 00:28:37.000 Thomas Howell: So 250 00:28:37.080 --> 00:28:47.779 Thomas Howell: yeah, to me, it would be really, really confusing. Because I've just I've seen newspaper sites where they've got hundreds and hundreds of blocks like crazy sites. 251 00:28:47.980 --> 00:28:50.250 Thomas Howell: And the filters 252 00:28:50.450 --> 00:28:53.230 Thomas Howell: going to be misleading from my perspective. 253 00:28:57.080 --> 00:29:00.279 Benji Fisher: Yeah, before we had the layout builder. 254 00:29:00.750 --> 00:29:06.219 Benji Fisher: it was more of a problem, because anytime you wanted to block, it would appear on this page. 255 00:29:06.700 --> 00:29:09.029 Benji Fisher: and that's 256 00:29:09.350 --> 00:29:14.679 Benji Fisher: at least we have the option of of using layout builder and don't need hundreds of bucks 257 00:29:15.100 --> 00:29:16.899 Benji Fisher: on most sites. But go go ahead, Ralph. 258 00:29:18.440 --> 00:29:21.890 Ralf Koller: Just one idea in regards of 259 00:29:22.290 --> 00:29:27.230 Ralf Koller: Seymour's point and the ability to reorder 260 00:29:29.880 --> 00:29:33.870 Ralf Koller: it might be a bit disconnected. But would it be an idea 261 00:29:35.050 --> 00:29:40.870 Ralf Koller: to try the following approach, let's say. you search, for example, for branding. 262 00:29:41.650 --> 00:29:56.449 Ralf Koller: then, it's bad, I example. But if you have, let's say 2 or 3 results, and then let's try it. Was it menu? Yeah, it was menu. Let's say you then 263 00:29:56.590 --> 00:29:57.520 Ralf Koller: click 264 00:29:58.040 --> 00:30:05.229 Ralf Koller: one of those, and if you remove afterward the filter. the focus stays on the clicked 265 00:30:05.940 --> 00:30:14.380 Ralf Koller: basically element. And that way it got scrolled to the position, and then you would be able in context 266 00:30:15.520 --> 00:30:17.630 Ralf Koller: to change the position that way. 267 00:30:18.750 --> 00:30:21.029 Ralf Koller: Very intuitive. But 268 00:30:21.220 --> 00:30:27.740 Simo Hellsten: I was thinking, if we could have some kind of earth. clear filter button next to that place block. 269 00:30:27.800 --> 00:30:33.019 Simo Hellsten: So it's kind of then clicking. It would be intuitive that the focus stays 270 00:30:33.250 --> 00:30:43.730 Simo Hellsten: in if we want to. If we have a filter and we want to were doing some something with something in secondary menu. And if we click on that region line 271 00:30:44.030 --> 00:30:54.699 Simo Hellsten: there is a clear, clear filter button. Then it's kind of intuitive that the focus stays there. So that that's kind of it's a bit similar idea. 272 00:30:56.330 --> 00:30:57.060 Ralf Koller: Yep. 273 00:30:57.810 --> 00:31:06.570 Simo Hellsten: but that's, I think that's a pattern we don't have anywhere else. So that would be something new. I don't think I've seen that anywhere. 274 00:31:07.940 --> 00:31:09.310 Ralf Koller: So basically 275 00:31:09.620 --> 00:31:17.140 Ralf Koller: the button, the clear in this, in the section where you press the clear button the focus stays 276 00:31:17.150 --> 00:31:18.820 Ralf Koller: to that, basically. 277 00:31:19.100 --> 00:31:29.359 Simo Hellsten: Yeah, because you'll click on it. So it doesn't so if we can keep it so that that's where you click, it stays there. And then kind of that stuff comes 278 00:31:29.500 --> 00:31:30.390 Simo Hellsten: either 279 00:31:30.810 --> 00:31:32.680 Simo Hellsten: up or down from that. 280 00:31:34.650 --> 00:31:38.540 Benji Fisher: How about a variant of that idea? 281 00:31:40.230 --> 00:31:42.370 Benji Fisher: have the filter 282 00:31:42.900 --> 00:31:46.600 Benji Fisher: be sort of sticky or float floating 283 00:31:46.880 --> 00:31:53.600 Benji Fisher: so that it's always in focus. I'm sorry it's always on the screen. and then 284 00:31:53.940 --> 00:31:56.389 Benji Fisher: you filter on 285 00:31:57.810 --> 00:32:02.029 Benji Fisher: branding, or whatever, and and you find the block. 286 00:32:02.720 --> 00:32:05.260 Benji Fisher: then you could 287 00:32:05.950 --> 00:32:13.209 Benji Fisher: clear the filter. So II think there should also be a little X icon inside the filter box 288 00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:17.380 Benji Fisher: to clear it. And then when you click on that Edward 289 00:32:20.620 --> 00:32:21.480 Benji Fisher: sort of 290 00:32:22.900 --> 00:32:29.190 Benji Fisher: find the as as as as Sima was suggesting. Keep keep the focus of the current element 291 00:32:38.420 --> 00:32:39.270 Thomas Howell: with. 292 00:32:39.700 --> 00:32:45.939 Thomas Howell: Is it really that bad to make it searchable by region as well. If that's the behavior. 293 00:32:48.640 --> 00:32:56.360 Benji Fisher: I think there are pluses and minuses to that. that, it's it's not filtering enough. If it matches one of the regions. 294 00:32:59.240 --> 00:33:02.950 Benji Fisher: Ralph. You still have your hand up oops. Oh, sorry. Okay. 295 00:33:03.180 --> 00:33:08.279 Ralf Koller: with sharing. It's a bit complicated or reach the reactions. Sorry. 296 00:33:08.590 --> 00:33:16.839 Benji Fisher: Yeah, II do like seamless idea. But you know as as as he said, it's sort of an odd pattern to have the 297 00:33:17.270 --> 00:33:18.820 Benji Fisher: clear filter button 298 00:33:19.630 --> 00:33:22.730 Benji Fisher: show up next to place block, or whatever. 299 00:33:23.580 --> 00:33:28.749 Benji Fisher: II also like the idea that clicking on a row 300 00:33:29.090 --> 00:33:30.849 Benji Fisher: should select it. 301 00:33:32.510 --> 00:33:36.050 Benji Fisher: and that that might be more natural. So you 302 00:33:36.380 --> 00:33:45.870 Benji Fisher: you filter. you click on a row, it becomes selected. You scroll, if necessary, and clear the filter. 303 00:33:46.170 --> 00:33:48.199 Benji Fisher: Then the selected row 304 00:33:48.970 --> 00:33:50.410 Benji Fisher: should get focus. 305 00:33:52.930 --> 00:33:55.699 Benji Fisher: and that that's more or less what you were suggesting, isn't it, Ralph? 306 00:33:56.160 --> 00:33:57.090 Ralf Koller: Oh, yes. 307 00:33:59.150 --> 00:34:01.929 Simo Hellsten: Hmm! How many people try to 308 00:34:02.020 --> 00:34:06.010 Simo Hellsten: hold control or shift button and select multiple rows. 309 00:34:10.239 --> 00:34:11.270 Simo Hellsten: Oh, yeah. 310 00:34:12.790 --> 00:34:13.580 Simo Hellsten: kind of. 311 00:34:15.650 --> 00:34:25.309 Benji Fisher: II think, even in contexts where where that can be done like multiple select lists, I think that it's a a pattern people aren't very familiar with. 312 00:34:31.330 --> 00:34:39.189 Benji Fisher: So I guess we we we already more or less have that functionality. If you filter, and then you click and drag 313 00:34:41.139 --> 00:34:44.609 Benji Fisher: Then the row becomes selected 314 00:34:48.020 --> 00:34:49.750 Benji Fisher: and stay selected. 315 00:34:51.730 --> 00:34:57.009 Benji Fisher: So what we're missing is that a a single click? Actually select the row. 316 00:34:58.880 --> 00:35:03.309 Thomas Howell: and then we're also missing the auto focus when you clear the filter. 317 00:35:03.570 --> 00:35:07.780 Simo Hellsten: But that's actually something that we need to change all of this. 318 00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:16.100 Simo Hellsten: If, when we want to be a webcam, 2.2 compatible, so that kind of requires us to change 319 00:35:16.820 --> 00:35:18.290 Simo Hellsten: drugging, drugging. 320 00:35:20.170 --> 00:35:21.790 Benji Fisher: Go ahead, Thomas. 321 00:35:22.460 --> 00:35:34.499 Thomas Howell: If we could do that so right now, looking at secondary menu, we see there's 3 items, and there's one on primary item. If we filter 322 00:35:34.980 --> 00:35:37.820 Thomas Howell: on menu the term menu. 323 00:35:39.590 --> 00:35:43.599 Thomas Howell: we see that we only get 2 and 0 or 0 and 2. 324 00:35:44.670 --> 00:35:50.010 Thomas Howell: Why can we reorder when we don't have everything there? 325 00:35:52.420 --> 00:36:03.750 Thomas Howell: Because if you've got like 10 things under secondary menu. And you're only seeing 2 of the 10. And you're seeing the first and the fifth. What does reordering mean in that context? 326 00:36:07.960 --> 00:36:15.679 Benji Fisher: Yeah, that that. That's another way of stating the problem that that Ralph brought up that once once you've located it. 327 00:36:15.960 --> 00:36:20.460 Benji Fisher: you you can't meaningfully reorder it until you've cleared the filter. 328 00:36:20.570 --> 00:36:23.419 Benji Fisher: and then you have to go find the the item again. 329 00:36:23.980 --> 00:36:30.940 Thomas Howell: Right? I'm just. I'm wondering if, when you're filtering, should we even allow reordering 330 00:36:33.990 --> 00:36:56.709 Thomas Howell: cause right now you can. II like you could switch user account menu and main menu under secondary menu, and there's nothing to tell someone. Hey? You may be this is gonna be the consequence of doing that. They are currently order one and 5, but you swooping, swapping them one over the other. They're going to become? Is it one and 2? Are they becoming 4 and 5? 331 00:36:56.710 --> 00:37:11.430 Thomas Howell: Like II get that someone has to clear the filter to then reorder them. But it's not clear to me that anyone would know that if they were to reorder it right now, what is what should the consequence of that action be 332 00:37:11.560 --> 00:37:31.960 Thomas Howell: because I thought that was what was being demonstrated was, if from this screen you chose in the region, drop down a third region. It wasn't clear that it's not part of the secondary menu. So I to me, I'm seeing multiple problems like they're not necessarily the same. 333 00:37:34.250 --> 00:37:37.749 Ralf Koller: And just one brief addition. 334 00:37:38.580 --> 00:37:45.080 Ralf Koller: you exactly spotted one example, as you can see, primary menu as a group is also shown 335 00:37:46.550 --> 00:37:52.550 Ralf Koller: in contrast to basically what the placeholders is. It's just block, name or block category. 336 00:37:52.820 --> 00:37:53.970 But block group. 337 00:37:54.190 --> 00:37:58.030 Simo Hellsten: or maybe that could also be result of 338 00:37:58.730 --> 00:38:02.539 Simo Hellsten: not not having saved that change for my navigation. 339 00:38:04.780 --> 00:38:07.169 Simo Hellsten: Er no, no, it should. Doesn't say Meno 340 00:38:07.730 --> 00:38:08.450 Simo Hellsten: or. 341 00:38:09.230 --> 00:38:13.000 Ralf Koller: Oh, true. Yeah, correct. Correct, correct, correct. Correct. 342 00:38:14.340 --> 00:38:15.270 Ralf Koller: You're right. 343 00:38:15.490 --> 00:38:21.090 Simo Hellsten: And there it filters category because main navigation doesn't say menu. 344 00:38:21.540 --> 00:38:24.370 Ralf Koller: Okay. no, it makes sense. 345 00:38:30.760 --> 00:38:34.610 Ralf Koller: And just one small addition of one other 346 00:38:35.710 --> 00:38:38.210 Ralf Koller: screen. I just unplug my. 347 00:38:40.960 --> 00:38:50.659 Ralf Koller: yes, One other detail. Who's over on safari block, vertical line, tree, pad, filter by block, name or block, category window filter, search text field as keyboard focus. 348 00:38:51.800 --> 00:38:56.420 Ralf Koller: Enter a part of the block, name to filter by. You are currently on text field to intersect in this field type 349 00:38:57.600 --> 00:38:58.340 Ralf Koller: you 350 00:38:58.670 --> 00:39:02.249 Ralf Koller: 16 point apple system uifont. A shade of gray, 14 on a shade of menu. 351 00:39:03.400 --> 00:39:08.419 Ralf Koller: Enter a part of the block. Name to filter by. You are currently a safari, the character palette. Yip, a. M. 352 00:39:08.520 --> 00:39:09.569 App at F. 353 00:39:09.930 --> 00:39:14.429 Ralf Koller: Miss Feld, 16 point double system. UI. Font a shade of gray, 14 on a shade of SDFS. DFSD. F. 354 00:39:18.010 --> 00:39:19.020 Ralf Koller: Voiceover. 355 00:39:19.520 --> 00:39:23.750 Benji Fisher: Is it telling us the color of the little X icon. 356 00:39:24.850 --> 00:39:26.430 Ralf Koller: That's not helpful. 357 00:39:27.180 --> 00:39:30.610 Ralf Koller: No, but that's the but the verbosity, I've said. 358 00:39:30.660 --> 00:39:35.129 Ralf Koller: But no, the main problem is, basically you get no feedback. 359 00:39:35.400 --> 00:39:40.410 Ralf Koller: And for screen reader, if there are results, or if there are no results at all. 360 00:39:41.910 --> 00:39:47.130 Ralf Koller: though there should be basically some sort of 1 Si have to 361 00:39:48.050 --> 00:39:53.329 Ralf Koller: some sort of feedback in that regard as well. from my point of view. 362 00:39:55.960 --> 00:39:56.810 Benji Fisher: good point. 363 00:40:13.830 --> 00:40:22.200 Benji Fisher: So let me give an example of what Thomas was talking about. Ralph, can you filter on the single letter? R, 364 00:40:22.670 --> 00:40:23.719 Ralf Koller: r, okay. 365 00:40:25.170 --> 00:40:28.330 Benji Fisher: and then go to highlighted 366 00:40:28.870 --> 00:40:29.640 Ralf Koller: yep 367 00:40:30.380 --> 00:40:34.280 Benji Fisher: and say, move secondary tabs above primary tabs. 368 00:40:36.040 --> 00:40:45.079 Benji Fisher: so now it's above primary tabs, and it's below primary admin actions. What happens now if you save the form. 369 00:40:54.730 --> 00:41:09.350 Benji Fisher: So there's status messages in the way, and you have no way when it. When status messages was filtered out, it didn't have an r in it. You have no way of knowing whether secondary tabs is above or below status messages. 370 00:41:11.490 --> 00:41:12.920 Thomas Howell: Exactly. Thank you. 371 00:41:24.780 --> 00:41:30.619 Simo Hellsten: Yeah. Also, if there is only 2 visible. So you don't know if it goes. If it's kind of a 372 00:41:31.490 --> 00:41:33.389 Simo Hellsten: it's if if it will be. 373 00:41:33.450 --> 00:41:43.729 Simo Hellsten: move to be the first or move to be the last, or if it's going to be just one above the other that's in there. So if it 374 00:41:44.250 --> 00:41:47.759 Simo Hellsten: yes. So if you filter tab, filter by tabs 375 00:41:48.210 --> 00:41:58.090 Simo Hellsten: and move primary primary primary tabs above secondary tabs or secondary. Then you kind of don't know if it's if if it would be the first one 376 00:41:59.610 --> 00:42:05.450 Simo Hellsten: on the list also. So first of us are kind of special cases of the same. 377 00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:20.790 Benji Fisher: and and I tried the same thing. I moved secondary tabs above primary actions and then below it. So at the end I had the same 3 things, primary admin, secondary tabs, primary tabs, and I saved. 378 00:42:21.050 --> 00:42:24.240 Benji Fisher: and now, second in in in my copy of the site. 379 00:42:24.740 --> 00:42:27.549 Benji Fisher: or I guess it's the same as your copy of the site. 380 00:42:28.030 --> 00:42:31.510 Benji Fisher: secondary tabs is now 381 00:42:31.700 --> 00:42:35.860 Benji Fisher: above status messages. If you reload the page. I think you'll 382 00:42:36.220 --> 00:42:37.619 Benji Fisher: see the effect of 383 00:42:41.450 --> 00:42:42.130 Ralf Koller: yeah. 384 00:42:42.440 --> 00:42:43.560 Benji Fisher: what I did. 385 00:42:43.920 --> 00:42:53.020 Simo Hellsten: So in a way, that's it. In a way. The same what appears to be the same thing, it can result in different results. 386 00:42:53.030 --> 00:42:54.170 Benji Fisher: Exactly. 387 00:42:54.570 --> 00:42:55.430 Thomas Howell: Yes. 388 00:43:03.350 --> 00:43:07.790 Thomas Howell: I just think, in my experience, people 389 00:43:08.300 --> 00:43:12.589 Thomas Howell: when I was dealing with dragon drops like this. 390 00:43:12.640 --> 00:43:15.880 Thomas Howell: whenever you're filtering down. you're 391 00:43:17.250 --> 00:43:45.230 Thomas Howell: there's not enough information about what's happening. And so if you can take the action of dragging in and reordering things there's no reason why someone wouldn't reorder between 2 different menus if you've categorized based upon category. So if you've searched a category core and you're moving things around between multiple regions, and you've got orders within those regions. Things could really rapidly 392 00:43:45.470 --> 00:43:49.710 Thomas Howell: behave in very unpredictable ways like you. You really would. It would 393 00:43:49.720 --> 00:44:04.879 Thomas Howell: depend upon what order you were dragging and dropping things like, are you going primary Admins, and putting that below primary tabs? Or are you putting primary tabs above admin actions like it's both ordered. 1, 2, 2, one. But where they show up 394 00:44:05.450 --> 00:44:16.709 Thomas Howell: with regions as well, moving between regions that suddenly, like you could move 3 things on then save the menu, and everything is radically different than what you'd expect. 395 00:44:18.150 --> 00:44:21.539 Thomas Howell: because we've just been moving 2 things at a time thus far. 396 00:44:22.940 --> 00:44:32.270 Benji Fisher: Yeah, I have another idea, which is another variant of Simo's idea. What if we added a little 397 00:44:33.360 --> 00:44:36.290 Benji Fisher: check box or so, or some some widget 398 00:44:36.440 --> 00:44:40.400 Benji Fisher: for each region to say, Show all 399 00:44:46.980 --> 00:44:49.380 Ralf Koller: override the filter for that region, then? 400 00:44:49.900 --> 00:44:50.900 Benji Fisher: Yes. 401 00:44:57.610 --> 00:45:06.619 Benji Fisher: So I guess the questions are, how intuitive is it, and how usable is it? I think it's fairly usable? 402 00:45:07.120 --> 00:45:09.969 Benji Fisher: So if we, if we combine this. 403 00:45:10.840 --> 00:45:21.880 Benji Fisher: never hide the regions and then add this checkbox or link. then then I think it's usable. You can 404 00:45:22.470 --> 00:45:27.190 Benji Fisher: move block between regions, and then, once you've found the correct region. 405 00:45:27.480 --> 00:45:31.879 Benji Fisher: you can show all the things in that region 406 00:45:32.080 --> 00:45:34.740 Benji Fisher: without clearing the filter without. 407 00:45:35.110 --> 00:45:43.280 Benji Fisher: you know, showing things in other regions. And then once you see all the blocks within region, you can click and drag within there. 408 00:45:44.060 --> 00:45:55.369 Thomas Howell: Would you suggest something like a checkbox label, show all blocks, or show all blocks in region, so that it's very clear what the intent of the checkbox is 409 00:45:59.340 --> 00:46:12.370 Benji Fisher: yeah, I guess there's there's room for that. There's room for a long label. I was thinking, that show will be clear enough, but maybe the longer label would be better. 410 00:46:13.240 --> 00:46:17.110 Simo Hellsten: Hmm! It's part region mentioned, at least 411 00:46:24.720 --> 00:46:29.300 Simo Hellsten: might actually like to have, even without any future, as to have a kind of a 412 00:46:29.780 --> 00:46:38.439 Simo Hellsten: hide hide hiding stuff from religion. So if there is some kind of a long, long, like content area with lots of different. 413 00:46:38.680 --> 00:46:41.540 Simo Hellsten: then just clicking hide and then dragging 414 00:46:41.590 --> 00:46:46.420 Simo Hellsten: like above it like true. So from 415 00:46:46.640 --> 00:46:49.040 Simo Hellsten: from origin. that's 416 00:46:49.290 --> 00:46:54.749 Simo Hellsten: a bob content drugging to maybe falter if he does in that bottom or something like that. So 417 00:46:54.840 --> 00:47:01.099 Simo Hellsten: also, just having possible to just without filtering, also to hide stuff 418 00:47:01.120 --> 00:47:04.040 Simo Hellsten: that might be also sometimes useful. 419 00:47:05.050 --> 00:47:18.540 Thomas Howell: maybe show in all would be enough if we had some sort of information or documentation link in the filter area. So like, because once you know how that pattern works. 420 00:47:18.850 --> 00:47:26.220 Thomas Howell: it's really simple to do, and it doesn't need all that visual clutter. But I want to make 421 00:47:26.460 --> 00:47:44.619 Thomas Howell: clear like. Make it easy to find that information like right now. There's nothing explaining how the filter works, so we could have a little link or an information bubble or something there and then. Use something short, like all blocks, hide blocks, or hide and 422 00:47:44.670 --> 00:47:49.020 Thomas Howell: show or show whatever we wanted, or hide in all something like that. 423 00:47:49.790 --> 00:47:52.080 Thomas Howell: cause for me. It's just 424 00:47:52.200 --> 00:47:58.049 Thomas Howell: if I were new to using drupal thinking in my old days, hat 425 00:47:58.790 --> 00:48:12.839 Thomas Howell: the the hide, I wouldn't. I would look at this page and not necessarily link hide on secondary menu when I'm scrolling down with a filter. So that's my only concern about that pattern. I think that is easy to learn. 426 00:48:13.320 --> 00:48:15.369 Thomas Howell: We just need to give a path to. 427 00:48:15.700 --> 00:48:22.119 Thomas Howell: besides, just experimentation, because not everybody likes to experiment. Some people want to know explicit instruction. 428 00:48:23.730 --> 00:48:30.749 Benji Fisher: Yeah, that was, that was my 2 questions, usability and discoverability. And and I think we agree. It's it's usable, but 429 00:48:30.800 --> 00:48:40.859 Benji Fisher: perhaps not discoverable. And and and you think maybe help text underneath the filter might explain that those check boxes below are tied to it. 430 00:48:41.680 --> 00:48:48.709 Thomas Howell: Yeah, I mean, yes, I think a little bit of help text would be great. And 431 00:48:49.010 --> 00:48:59.450 Thomas Howell: if you were to. I mean, if in that help text, you just simply said, like, hide, check box, all check box. These are used to do x 432 00:48:59.650 --> 00:49:04.790 Thomas Howell: for the filter, or you could even just say, these are for the filter. 433 00:49:05.370 --> 00:49:11.190 Benji Fisher: Right? Se seemo. Could you make your point again? Because II didn't quite get what you were saying 434 00:49:11.820 --> 00:49:26.949 Simo Hellsten: yeah. like so that it would be possible also to if everything is shown it could be like, as without filtering, or something like that, it would be also possible to hide. 435 00:49:27.020 --> 00:49:31.380 Simo Hellsten: rehigh. stuff, or hide everything if there is no filter 436 00:49:32.090 --> 00:49:34.150 Benji Fisher: right? So if we use the checkbox. 437 00:49:34.400 --> 00:49:35.509 Simo Hellsten: and you could 438 00:49:35.680 --> 00:49:37.509 Benji Fisher: selected or unselect it. 439 00:49:39.380 --> 00:49:44.999 Benji Fisher: And II guess you were also suggesting some way of collapsing. Everything in a region like maybe make 440 00:49:45.600 --> 00:49:54.130 Benji Fisher: make each region a details element or something. Yeah. So then, it would be kind of the similar to not having a filter. 441 00:49:54.340 --> 00:49:57.549 Simo Hellsten: and then kind of a reversing show, all 442 00:49:58.580 --> 00:50:03.319 Simo Hellsten: kind of, because nothing, nothing is shown with the filter. So you know, in a way. 443 00:50:03.610 --> 00:50:08.379 Simo Hellsten: if you don't show everything, then it's showing nothing. 444 00:50:09.130 --> 00:50:11.970 Simo Hellsten: But it's not not really. Yeah. 445 00:50:12.060 --> 00:50:15.130 Simo Hellsten: I'm not truly sure if that's the best way. 446 00:50:15.520 --> 00:50:16.590 Simo Hellsten: but it 447 00:50:16.820 --> 00:50:17.950 Simo Hellsten: but I think 448 00:50:18.160 --> 00:50:22.109 Simo Hellsten: in a way, yeah, but some kind of detail assignment would be could be. 449 00:50:24.180 --> 00:50:29.369 Simo Hellsten: But then, yeah, technically, it problematic with the drugs dragon rope. 450 00:50:29.780 --> 00:50:32.490 Benji Fisher: I guess if we have a 451 00:50:32.920 --> 00:50:41.330 Benji Fisher: check box to show blocks in this region. We could also have one to hide blocks in this region and those those would be overwriting the filter. 452 00:50:41.580 --> 00:50:44.859 Benji Fisher: Okay, Ralph, you've been waiting patiently. Go ahead. 453 00:50:45.490 --> 00:50:51.539 Ralf Koller: In regards of hiding on one hand might be 454 00:50:52.620 --> 00:50:54.040 Ralf Koller: a useful 455 00:50:54.530 --> 00:51:02.779 Ralf Koller: idea, but I'm unsure if it might be overwhelming that first you filter, then you have the option to show. 456 00:51:03.550 --> 00:51:05.160 Ralf Koller: One 457 00:51:05.300 --> 00:51:06.020 Ralf Koller: group 458 00:51:06.190 --> 00:51:12.369 Ralf Koller: or 2 groups at once, and then hidech and other details. 459 00:51:13.550 --> 00:51:18.999 That is some sort of inception in in some sort of matrushka principle. And 460 00:51:19.280 --> 00:51:27.799 Ralf Koller: first you hire. First you filter, then you hide, then you show, and it might be confusing, so I'm not sure 461 00:51:28.810 --> 00:51:41.349 Ralf Koller: but one other idea. And and on one hand, I'm also plus one for adding some help, text, or description underneath the filter field. 462 00:51:41.840 --> 00:51:43.139 Ralf Koller: Just 463 00:51:43.520 --> 00:51:54.000 Ralf Koller: providing some context and explanation. And I wonder, is the place block button in place, block button, in case you filtered for something 464 00:51:54.030 --> 00:51:57.760 Ralf Koller: necessary at all? And wouldn't it be 465 00:51:57.840 --> 00:52:01.020 Ralf Koller: suitable to place the 466 00:52:01.730 --> 00:52:04.640 Ralf Koller: override the filter switch button there instead? 467 00:52:06.370 --> 00:52:14.339 Benji Fisher: Just on that last point? I might be in a situation where I want to put this block in the same region as breadcrumbs. 468 00:52:14.390 --> 00:52:22.260 Benji Fisher: and so I filter on breadcrumbs, and I find it, and then and then I would still want to place block. Go ahead, Thomas. 469 00:52:23.430 --> 00:52:32.000 Thomas Howell: So I was thinking that from my perspective hide and show all 470 00:52:32.020 --> 00:52:37.409 Thomas Howell: are more like radio buttons that are kind of mutually exclusive. I can't imagine a situation where you want to do both. 471 00:52:38.730 --> 00:52:40.920 Thomas Howell: so 472 00:52:41.370 --> 00:52:43.849 Thomas Howell: I don't know if 473 00:52:44.270 --> 00:53:05.859 Thomas Howell: I don't know if that might be better than a checkbox, if they're like you have that choice, and I would put a reset button in the filter at the top, so like so that you avoid getting things really weird and having to click through and scroll through and remove the hides and remove the show alls 474 00:53:05.860 --> 00:53:21.990 Thomas Howell: like at the top. With the filter you could press the reset, and it could even reset what's in the filter, so that it behaves in a predictable way whatever you want to. When you want to reset all of the filter, you press the reset button, and it clears out what's in the filter box as well as removing any of the check boxes on the page. 475 00:53:22.290 --> 00:53:24.619 Thomas Howell: But that makes it 476 00:53:25.470 --> 00:53:48.060 Thomas Howell: rapid to use. Because I think of this situation here you've got. R, you've selected. R, and you're like, Okay, I really don't need to see the header. I really don't need to see the primary menu. But I'm really trying to go between the secondary menu and something below the secondary menu. And those are the 2 things I want to be looking at right now, and I need to see everything on the secondary menu. And I need to see everything on the whatever was below the secondary menu. 477 00:53:49.310 --> 00:53:56.859 Benji Fisher: Yeah, just a couple of quick replies to that you'd never want show all and hide all but 478 00:53:57.220 --> 00:54:03.649 Benji Fisher: you. There are cases where you want neither. or you don't want to override the filter. 479 00:54:06.860 --> 00:54:11.450 Thomas Howell: Right? So I also not radio got it. Yeah. So radio is bad. 480 00:54:11.600 --> 00:54:22.179 Benji Fisher: And yeah, I think we already said we, we should have a like something in the filter to clear it. 481 00:54:22.710 --> 00:54:31.790 Benji Fisher: It's not obvious to me that you'd want that to override the check boxes like if I have a couple of regions with lots of blocks in them. 482 00:54:32.170 --> 00:54:34.859 Benji Fisher: and I've checked the hide all 483 00:54:35.080 --> 00:54:40.409 Benji Fisher: for those regions. It's not clear to me that I want to reset that when I reset the filter 484 00:54:42.450 --> 00:54:48.530 Thomas Howell: I just, I guess for me my concern was I didn't want to make the actual rows 485 00:54:49.020 --> 00:54:52.509 Thomas Howell: too much busier, and so I've got. 486 00:54:53.000 --> 00:54:58.429 Thomas Howell: I'm I'm I see that we've got the room next to the secondary menu. But if we put 487 00:54:59.750 --> 00:55:13.630 Thomas Howell: it's it's gonna be hard to manage if you don't have a way to undo all the check boxes, because I'm thinking of the scenario where today I'm working on blocks, and I put check boxes in 488 00:55:14.150 --> 00:55:18.589 Thomas Howell: various combinations across 10 different 489 00:55:19.090 --> 00:55:34.979 Thomas Howell: regions. So I've got some of the regions are hidden. Some of the regions today are show, all because I'm just working there today, having to then go through and remove all those check boxes and potentially missing that I hid one of them, for instance, or yadda yadda, yadda 490 00:55:35.530 --> 00:55:47.140 Thomas Howell: If I don't have a way to get to those in bulk. then it it it can pre. It can present problems in the future, because you'll have an unexpected behavior. 491 00:55:47.510 --> 00:55:54.289 Benji Fisher: You can force, reload the page. But but I think that might also be in the category of things that not everybody knows about 492 00:55:54.490 --> 00:56:00.689 Benji Fisher: surprisingly true along with control, click and such. 493 00:56:01.300 --> 00:56:04.780 Benji Fisher: All right, we have less than 10 min left 494 00:56:06.610 --> 00:56:09.600 Benji Fisher: any further comments before we try to wrap this up. 495 00:56:11.520 --> 00:56:12.560 Simo Hellsten: Go ahead, Ralph. 496 00:56:13.000 --> 00:56:20.220 Ralf Koller: Just one question in case it would be possible to show all 497 00:56:21.120 --> 00:56:28.120 Ralf Koller: block categories or block groups. Sorry. And 498 00:56:30.070 --> 00:56:31.619 Benji Fisher: regions like right? 499 00:56:32.150 --> 00:56:34.150 Ralf Koller: Regions. May I 500 00:56:34.290 --> 00:56:44.880 Ralf Koller: terminology cause? For example, if you have something like that, you have that note. There are no blocks matching the filter conditions? Oh, basically, filler conditions? 501 00:56:45.440 --> 00:56:48.049 Ralf Koller: Or should basically an empty 502 00:56:49.790 --> 00:56:54.060 Ralf Koller: what is the name? Okay? 503 00:56:54.130 --> 00:56:55.360 Ralf Koller: completely. 504 00:56:58.860 --> 00:57:03.559 Ralf Koller: If something. If, for example, headers empty, what should be the 505 00:57:03.990 --> 00:57:05.400 Ralf Koller: the text there? 506 00:57:06.590 --> 00:57:10.399 Benji Fisher: Or should there be empty text? If if there are no blocks in a region 507 00:57:12.150 --> 00:57:13.220 Benji Fisher: that what you're asking? 508 00:57:13.720 --> 00:57:17.900 Ralf Koller: Yeah. But yeah, for example, there could be no block in that region, or 509 00:57:17.980 --> 00:57:19.750 Ralf Koller: there could be 510 00:57:20.640 --> 00:57:24.360 Ralf Koller: no block that is matching the filter criteria. So 511 00:57:26.580 --> 00:57:29.429 Ralf Koller: there should be 2 different types of 512 00:57:30.220 --> 00:57:32.250 Ralf Koller: feedback to the user. 513 00:57:37.500 --> 00:57:40.680 Benji Fisher: go ahead. Seamo. 514 00:57:43.330 --> 00:57:50.660 Simo Hellsten: Yeah, this was a another thing. I was just thinking, do we have a like a 515 00:57:53.060 --> 00:58:00.769 Simo Hellsten: universal way of how filters handle poet space in beginning and in end 516 00:58:01.230 --> 00:58:05.980 Simo Hellsten: and in the middle. But kind of do we have a kind of a 517 00:58:07.500 --> 00:58:08.240 Simo Hellsten: not 518 00:58:08.560 --> 00:58:13.180 Simo Hellsten: fixed way of how all filters work, or is there something that needs to be 519 00:58:13.320 --> 00:58:16.800 Simo Hellsten: thought of in this article of filter? 520 00:58:18.620 --> 00:58:24.429 Benji Fisher: I'm not sure but it's it's clearly matching anywhere in the word. So I'm not sure how 521 00:58:26.850 --> 00:58:29.230 Benji Fisher: white space affects things. 522 00:58:33.000 --> 00:58:34.549 Simo Hellsten: Yeah, it does affect. 523 00:58:35.000 --> 00:58:35.660 Ralf Koller: Yeah. 524 00:58:36.110 --> 00:58:41.859 Benji Fisher: So if you type space are in the filter, for example, that's different from typing in our 525 00:58:45.710 --> 00:58:48.620 Benji Fisher: and space. B will find site branding 526 00:58:51.800 --> 00:58:54.299 Ralf Koller: and without you for also find breadcrumbs. 527 00:58:57.000 --> 00:58:59.789 Benji Fisher: Thomas wanted to say something else. 528 00:59:00.360 --> 00:59:05.210 Thomas Howell: just something that what Ralph was talking about triggered a thought in me. 529 00:59:05.440 --> 00:59:26.849 Thomas Howell: I don't know where the messaging belongs, and if it belongs, but part of me thinks it would be nice that when the filter hides things from header for showing all of these regions next to the region, it would say 5 blocks hidden, 2 blocks hidden. No, like no blocks in region like 530 00:59:26.950 --> 00:59:32.149 Thomas Howell: there's information when you're filtering. That might be helpful to know, because. 531 00:59:32.590 --> 00:59:42.859 Thomas Howell: If I am misspelling something I am looking for on a long list. and I'm I'm assuming it's under secondary menu. 532 00:59:42.900 --> 01:00:03.990 Thomas Howell: It would be helpful to know that I've hidden 5 things from secondary menu. So I'm doing something wrong with the string I'm looking for, and maybe I have to scroll through or look for a different ser like a different string. I just don't know if that that would give the differentiation that Ralph was talking about while also making it a little more usable to me. 533 01:00:04.940 --> 01:00:11.650 Benji Fisher: That's a good idea. And I I've seen that filter somewhere in the last couple of that that pattern. Rather. I've seen that pattern. 534 01:00:12.030 --> 01:00:16.400 Benji Fisher: Can't remember whether it was drupal or something else. Maybe it was Google Ralph. 535 01:00:18.770 --> 01:00:20.470 Ralf Koller: not just editor. 536 01:00:21.110 --> 01:00:24.750 Ralf Koller: comment to the chat, but missed. 537 01:00:24.840 --> 01:00:31.040 Ralf Koller: no blocks to no blocks hidden. The second string is wrong. 538 01:00:31.600 --> 01:00:39.219 Benji Fisher: Okay. so we have just a few minutes left. So I think we have some firm recommendations. 539 01:00:39.450 --> 01:00:48.700 Benji Fisher: One is that there should be something in the filter box to clear the filter. The second is that 540 01:00:49.040 --> 01:00:53.460 Benji Fisher: none of the regions should be hidden. 541 01:00:55.210 --> 01:00:58.639 Benji Fisher: and then. 542 01:01:00.820 --> 01:01:05.130 Benji Fisher: yeah, we don't have a firm recommendation, but we need some better way 543 01:01:05.420 --> 01:01:06.720 Benji Fisher: to 544 01:01:07.320 --> 01:01:12.409 Benji Fisher: to make moving blocks around more reliable. 545 01:01:13.140 --> 01:01:14.200 Benji Fisher: and 546 01:01:14.960 --> 01:01:18.279 Benji Fisher: some of our suggestions are to 547 01:01:18.390 --> 01:01:19.110 Benji Fisher: add 548 01:01:19.290 --> 01:01:24.259 Benji Fisher: something, add a a check box, show all blocks in the region. 549 01:01:24.430 --> 01:01:26.599 Benji Fisher: even if they don't match the filter. 550 01:01:27.050 --> 01:01:35.410 Benji Fisher: think that's the the best idea so far. although it's it needs some some work. 551 01:01:36.600 --> 01:01:44.149 Benji Fisher: So 2 firm recommendations, one suggestion or or idea for for further thought. 552 01:01:45.780 --> 01:01:46.540 that's 553 01:01:46.980 --> 01:01:50.649 Benji Fisher: go ahead. The screen reader output. I would also to add 554 01:01:50.760 --> 01:01:54.269 Ralf Koller: to get a feedback that there's no 555 01:01:54.710 --> 01:01:57.650 Ralf Koller: results. Or if there are results. 556 01:02:08.240 --> 01:02:17.690 Ralf Koller: And in context of of the third point. also add a help text to the filter field. 557 01:02:18.920 --> 01:02:20.199 Ralf Koller: Also also brought up 558 01:02:20.960 --> 01:02:27.620 Benji Fisher: right, especially if we're going to have the the checkbox idea. Then then some help text, there would be important 559 01:02:30.050 --> 01:02:31.439 Benji Fisher: anything else. 560 01:02:36.510 --> 01:02:39.039 Benji Fisher: Ralph, are you willing to leave that comment? 561 01:02:39.140 --> 01:02:40.429 Ralf Koller: Yes, I can. 562 01:02:40.580 --> 01:02:41.330 Benji Fisher: Great. 563 01:02:44.300 --> 01:02:45.460 Ralf Koller: Okay. Oh, and 564 01:02:45.630 --> 01:02:54.389 Ralf Koller: one small. observable. But it's probably out of scope. Also, in the context of screen readers is 565 01:02:54.580 --> 01:03:00.289 Ralf Koller: the configure button as well as the option button as well as the select field. 566 01:03:01.360 --> 01:03:03.990 Ralf Koller: Is thought of without context. 567 01:03:05.200 --> 01:03:08.620 Ralf Koller: You only see configure 3 times. 568 01:03:09.180 --> 01:03:12.870 Ralf Koller: or additional actions. Button. 569 01:03:12.900 --> 01:03:16.460 Ralf Koller: or, you see highlighted, required pop-up button. 570 01:03:16.850 --> 01:03:23.130 Ralf Koller: which. out of context, is hard to understand. That's 571 01:03:23.460 --> 01:03:25.750 Ralf Koller: it's related. But 572 01:03:26.260 --> 01:03:27.919 Benji Fisher: I'm not sure what you're saying. 573 01:03:28.230 --> 01:03:29.920 Ralf Koller: And basically, if you're 574 01:03:30.770 --> 01:03:33.230 Ralf Koller: once quickly 575 01:03:34.160 --> 01:03:46.609 Ralf Koller: voice over on safari block layout, vertical line, tree, PAL, window, block, layout, filter, filter by block, name, block, category, search text, field, name, reload, page, link, skip, to meet tray, administration, menu, open form controls. Menu. manage toggle button form controls menu. 576 01:03:47.740 --> 01:03:51.050 Ralf Koller: You are currently on voiceover, menu map, shortcuts, toggle, button 577 01:03:51.160 --> 01:04:03.269 Ralf Koller: filters, push a header list additional primary menu required pop up button list, additional actions, button, primary menu required pop up, button, list, additional actions, but headings, menu buttons, menu, manic rip, short secondip list, set list, additional actions button 578 01:04:03.500 --> 01:04:06.700 Ralf Koller: use it have basically no real context. 579 01:04:07.130 --> 01:04:11.359 Benji Fisher: I see, I see. So so this is accessibility. 580 01:04:12.540 --> 01:04:14.370 Benji Fisher: nothing. Voiceover. 581 01:04:14.480 --> 01:04:15.509 Ralf Koller: Voice over off 582 01:04:16.030 --> 01:04:21.769 Benji Fisher: that that you're you're saying, all of these configure buttons look the same to someone using. 583 01:04:21.980 --> 01:04:28.160 Ralf Koller: It's redone, basically. And you're unable to navigate. You would have to go sequentially through the page. 584 01:04:29.080 --> 01:04:29.920 Benji Fisher: Okay. 585 01:04:31.220 --> 01:04:36.240 Benji Fisher: yeah, that that does seem like a valid concern. It does also seems out of scope for the current issue. 586 01:04:36.570 --> 01:04:42.319 Benji Fisher: but it's a it's a minute after the hour. So 587 01:04:43.660 --> 01:04:45.950 Benji Fisher: Thanks for attending, and 588 01:04:46.730 --> 01:04:51.559 Benji Fisher: and Ralph will leave the comment, and we'll mind another issue next week. Thanks. 589 01:04:51.700 --> 01:04:53.060 Aaron McHale: thanks, bye. 590 01:04:53.610 --> 01:04:55.270 Ralf Koller: As we end.