WEBVTT 57 00:10:18.150 --> 00:10:25.940 Benji Fisher: welcome. This is the drupal usability meeting for September 20, ninth, 2023. I'm Benji Fischer, moderating and sharing my screen. 58 00:10:26.430 --> 00:10:30.689 Benji Fisher: Also present are Seymo Helston, who will start off the conversation. 59 00:10:30.790 --> 00:10:33.369 Benji Fisher: Aaron Mikkel, Lowry Escala 60 00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:36.350 Benji Fisher: offer Shall and Ralph Kohler. 61 00:10:36.940 --> 00:10:42.569 Benji Fisher: So we're starting with issue 338, 9,200 0 62 00:10:43.020 --> 00:10:49.049 Benji Fisher: field selection breaks conventions and increases cognitive load. So go ahead, Simmo. 63 00:10:50.870 --> 00:10:56.630 Simo Hellsten: Yeah. So you know, this came up like a 64 00:10:57.280 --> 00:11:05.639 Simo Hellsten: that. This this field settings are going to be changed, and there is some ideas how to change them. And when I started looking at how it? 65 00:11:06.030 --> 00:11:06.760 Simo Hellsten: That. 66 00:11:07.050 --> 00:11:10.150 how it's implemented in the dread dev branch 67 00:11:10.330 --> 00:11:14.850 Simo Hellsten: at the moment I noticed. That's kind of a quite confusing. 68 00:11:14.890 --> 00:11:21.370 Simo Hellsten: in my opinion. Because, yeah, so it's kind of a yeah. I've been talking about the conventions and 69 00:11:21.590 --> 00:11:26.300 Simo Hellsten: like the perception a bit. So I look, look at, look at the 70 00:11:26.350 --> 00:11:37.149 Simo Hellsten: current state in Dev, and I see I see that there are radio buttons that are singular, like radio buttons that are not connected. So I see that it's kind of a 71 00:11:37.980 --> 00:11:48.169 Simo Hellsten: just one grouped by one radio button by one. So it's kind of a breaking the convention of having a kind of a list of radio buttons sent, how they are usually arranged. 72 00:11:49.950 --> 00:11:52.900 Benji Fisher: By the way. I have a 73 00:11:53.390 --> 00:11:58.350 Benji Fisher: sample drupal site here. I'll paste the link into the group, chat. The 74 00:11:59.470 --> 00:12:02.139 Benji Fisher: username and password are admin admin. 75 00:12:02.710 --> 00:12:04.819 Benji Fisher: And and we can use that to see 76 00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:06.470 Benji Fisher: alive 77 00:12:07.660 --> 00:12:10.159 Benji Fisher: version rather than relying on screenshots. 78 00:12:22.860 --> 00:12:23.940 Oh. 79 00:12:26.220 --> 00:12:29.840 Benji Fisher: I think this is the page we're talking about. Right? 80 00:12:31.370 --> 00:12:43.459 Simo Hellsten: And yeah, it's this page is something that it's kind of a the grid extends so that if you have a wide screen, then it extends up to 4 columns and then 81 00:12:43.820 --> 00:12:47.249 Simo Hellsten: narrow that it's down, down to 2 and one column. 82 00:12:47.750 --> 00:12:51.139 Simo Hellsten: And so the kind of alignment of it 83 00:12:51.990 --> 00:12:55.080 Simo Hellsten: radio buttons, that kind of changes depending on the 84 00:12:56.220 --> 00:12:58.899 Simo Hellsten: wave. I like that screen size. 85 00:12:59.150 --> 00:13:02.510 Simo Hellsten: So it's kind of if it's just one column, then it's kind of 86 00:13:02.660 --> 00:13:11.820 Simo Hellsten: a little bit better. But even still. huh! When I look at this one, I see that maybe if you hover on one of the items. 87 00:13:13.030 --> 00:13:15.040 Simo Hellsten: so it's quite discrete that 88 00:13:15.080 --> 00:13:23.780 Simo Hellsten: Hoover effect. So here we it kind of it would be much more like make, maybe invert colors, or something like it would be stronger effect. 89 00:13:23.870 --> 00:13:25.860 Simo Hellsten: But what I'm thinking is that 90 00:13:26.190 --> 00:13:30.969 Simo Hellsten: it kind of feels very much extra to have that radio button there. 91 00:13:31.460 --> 00:13:47.109 Simo Hellsten: because it doesn't feel like a group where you select one. And it's kind of a disk. It doesn't really give information. That radio button so clicking that it just selects the radio button, and it looks like more more like a radio button now. But it's kind of a 92 00:13:47.300 --> 00:13:56.089 Simo Hellsten: I think it's very much confusing, because it's it doesn't look like the items connect ripple that are close to that radio button don't look like radio buttons. 93 00:13:56.870 --> 00:14:07.300 Simo Hellsten: And here, when the items like the next step goes like way back down there below. So it's a kind of lot lot of space in between those 94 00:14:07.500 --> 00:14:10.580 Simo Hellsten: options. And 95 00:14:10.760 --> 00:14:13.590 Simo Hellsten: also, if you maybe choose, file upload 96 00:14:14.630 --> 00:14:16.260 Simo Hellsten: as a field type. 97 00:14:16.840 --> 00:14:18.140 Benji Fisher: Here it is. 98 00:14:18.870 --> 00:14:21.499 Simo Hellsten: Oh, maybe. Oh, oh, Boolean! Sorry. Boolean. 99 00:14:22.140 --> 00:14:23.210 Benji Fisher: Sure. 100 00:14:23.470 --> 00:14:32.749 Simo Hellsten: Yeah. So there, there! It's kind of a it's. This is more clear because it doesn't have any. Additional options. But then you, if you have something like maybe number. 101 00:14:33.580 --> 00:14:45.849 Simo Hellsten: Then you have a lot of different options, and they are quite far from your selection, and also here the radio buttons are even further away from each other than in a cadaver in the 102 00:14:46.440 --> 00:14:52.059 Simo Hellsten: type selection. So this is kind of something. It's very hard to see them as a 103 00:14:52.420 --> 00:14:57.719 Simo Hellsten: group of radio buttons. And that's kind of how radio buttons should work. 104 00:14:58.650 --> 00:15:06.900 Benji Fisher: And and I also notice an inconsistency. Here in the first set of choices. The radio buttons are all to the right. 105 00:15:07.110 --> 00:15:09.799 Benji Fisher: In the second set of choices. 106 00:15:09.820 --> 00:15:12.360 Benji Fisher: The radio buttons are on the left. 107 00:15:12.850 --> 00:15:15.120 Benji Fisher: I wonder if that was intentional? 108 00:15:16.460 --> 00:15:23.789 Benji Fisher: You know, before we go any further? II think the the larger question and and the reason we specifically asked Larry to join us. 109 00:15:23.970 --> 00:15:32.010 Benji Fisher: Is that this change went into drupal core without any input from the Usability team? 110 00:15:32.600 --> 00:15:37.310 Benji Fisher: There. There were some comments on the issue from Roy Shelton. 111 00:15:37.730 --> 00:15:47.840 Benji Fisher: And I think there was a a promise of rapid further development, and addressing some of the usability issues that Roy pointed out. 112 00:15:48.680 --> 00:15:51.089 Benji Fisher: Larry, would you like to 113 00:15:51.270 --> 00:15:54.689 Benji Fisher: say something about that process before we go any further? 114 00:16:00.850 --> 00:16:06.490 Benji Fisher: Oh, your audio is terrible. You sound like. Oh, that's better. 115 00:16:06.990 --> 00:16:10.919 Lauri Eskola: Alright sorry about that. So 116 00:16:11.230 --> 00:16:14.529 Lauri Eskola: I do want to give some context to where we came up with it 117 00:16:14.820 --> 00:16:16.639 Lauri Eskola: with these designs. So we did 118 00:16:17.920 --> 00:16:20.120 Lauri Eskola: around. 119 00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:26.189 Lauri Eskola: I think it did fit 4 rounds of user interviews with 6 users per round. 120 00:16:26.420 --> 00:16:29.199 Lauri Eskola: I mean, we're really struggling to find design. 121 00:16:29.530 --> 00:16:30.760 Lauri Eskola: That which 122 00:16:31.680 --> 00:16:34.899 Lauri Eskola: great? Well in those interviews. 123 00:16:35.210 --> 00:16:37.380 Lauri Eskola: and 124 00:16:37.660 --> 00:16:39.750 Lauri Eskola: this was the only design that 125 00:16:40.360 --> 00:16:44.630 Lauri Eskola: receive some level of positive response from 126 00:16:45.190 --> 00:16:47.420 Lauri Eskola: from users. So that's kind of 127 00:16:47.620 --> 00:16:48.770 Lauri Eskola: how we ended up 128 00:16:49.050 --> 00:16:53.269 Lauri Eskola: with these signs. There are some compromises still that 129 00:16:53.290 --> 00:16:58.689 Lauri Eskola: are. That's an ideal like. don't think we necessarily 130 00:16:59.830 --> 00:17:03.090 Lauri Eskola: wanted to do you use the radio buttons, or 131 00:17:03.920 --> 00:17:07.150 Lauri Eskola: as a long-term solution. I mean. 132 00:17:08.300 --> 00:17:15.930 Lauri Eskola: we had some. We had a hypothesis that we could potentially convert these into more like links. so that 133 00:17:16.150 --> 00:17:20.480 Lauri Eskola: but that would that would actually depend on some of the outer work that we are doing before. 134 00:17:20.609 --> 00:17:25.520 Lauri Eskola: where we would be converting the whole process into a mobile 135 00:17:31.330 --> 00:17:42.849 Lauri Eskola: So basically, yeah, we're making good good progress on the, on the work to to make the models work. And after that we might have one 136 00:17:42.900 --> 00:17:48.370 Lauri Eskola: opportunity when or that that would be at least an opportunity when we could try to improve this 137 00:17:54.090 --> 00:17:55.160 Lauri Eskola: bye 138 00:17:56.350 --> 00:18:02.700 Lauri Eskola: about the radio buttons. I do want to say. 1 one thing is, it's not like a completely new pattern interview before. 139 00:18:02.780 --> 00:18:06.199 Lauri Eskola: because of the media library use similar into this. And that's 140 00:18:06.430 --> 00:18:07.370 Lauri Eskola: and we're 141 00:18:08.560 --> 00:18:12.150 Lauri Eskola: we just thought, that's where we kind of copied the idea from. 142 00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:17.900 Lauri Eskola: There could potentially be some improvements that we could do for clarity. But we did not see any 143 00:18:18.150 --> 00:18:22.990 Lauri Eskola: challenges across the different rounds of usability testing that we did 144 00:18:23.120 --> 00:18:24.280 related to that. 145 00:18:25.420 --> 00:18:29.249 Benji Fisher: When you say the media library uses a similar pattern is 146 00:18:29.870 --> 00:18:40.980 Lauri Eskola: that would be under media selection, which is like when you are in opening media library, for example, ck, editor or an entity reference using the media library. 147 00:18:41.250 --> 00:18:46.920 Lauri Eskola: That's when it, you know. Provide a checkbox 148 00:18:47.140 --> 00:18:48.609 Lauri Eskola: as part of the board. 149 00:19:04.720 --> 00:19:10.569 Benji Fisher: for example, in here shouldn't be editing Spanish. But 150 00:19:12.140 --> 00:19:14.100 Benji Fisher: is this the page you're talking about. 151 00:19:18.280 --> 00:19:22.350 Benji Fisher: I'm editing. And I choose to add immediate. 152 00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:24.540 Simo Hellsten: yeah, they have 153 00:19:24.650 --> 00:19:26.150 Simo Hellsten: yeah check boxes. 154 00:19:26.300 --> 00:19:28.640 Benji Fisher: check boxes rather than radio buttons. 155 00:19:29.660 --> 00:19:32.779 Benji Fisher: Aaron. you have a comment you want to make. 156 00:19:33.500 --> 00:19:39.209 Aaron McHale: Hi, yeah, just kind of following from Lori. There, I 157 00:19:39.320 --> 00:19:44.230 Aaron McHale: I remember, I think, a previous meeting. We sort of talked about this. 158 00:19:44.490 --> 00:19:54.119 Aaron McHale: and I know I was definitely in favor of the kind of model multi set form approach. So, making each one a link, and then you click on the you know the link 159 00:19:54.180 --> 00:19:57.419 Aaron McHale: for the one you want, and that takes us to the next set of options. 160 00:19:57.450 --> 00:19:59.160 Aaron McHale: you know. So 161 00:19:59.290 --> 00:20:10.899 Aaron McHale: yeah, I'm definitely a fan of of more iteration in that direction. And I think you know, soft and the radio buttons for these being these being links, would be a a really positive change. I think 162 00:20:14.330 --> 00:20:15.580 Lauri Eskola: that's still like 163 00:20:16.730 --> 00:20:20.169 Lauri Eskola: I'm I'm just gonna add one more thing that's still on the roadmap. It's just that. 164 00:20:20.350 --> 00:20:26.169 Lauri Eskola: Some of the work to actually enable the models to work has taken a little bit longer than the anticipated in the first place. 165 00:20:26.380 --> 00:20:32.280 Lauri Eskola: But that's why we did not see as much of profit iteration on this. 166 00:20:34.420 --> 00:20:35.090 Simo Hellsten: No. 167 00:20:35.760 --> 00:20:42.980 Simo Hellsten: when I was looking at it, I just made some copy paste of HTML HTML with those that 168 00:20:43.410 --> 00:20:48.250 Simo Hellsten: A inspector on Browser! And added the like, change! A fuel. 169 00:20:48.540 --> 00:20:52.709 Simo Hellsten: a a few pieces of Css. 170 00:20:53.210 --> 00:21:00.480 Simo Hellsten: And or deleted actually a few lines were added. So II made a kind of what it would look like if those 171 00:21:00.570 --> 00:21:03.760 Simo Hellsten: options would be like if they would open 172 00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:07.059 Simo Hellsten: like right next to that selected 173 00:21:07.550 --> 00:21:23.489 Simo Hellsten: field type. So that's on a one issue that it's so far away. So it's kind of it very easy to focus what's happening, and especially because kind of they, there are. Some of them are quite similar. So you don't maybe even see that they changed 174 00:21:23.930 --> 00:21:28.939 Simo Hellsten: between, I think. Was it number and selection list. 175 00:21:31.170 --> 00:21:32.000 Simo Hellsten: you know? 176 00:21:35.700 --> 00:21:44.920 Simo Hellsten: Yeah, maybe choose selection? Oh, no, maybe with maybe plain text and formatted text. I think some of them are very similar. 177 00:21:47.060 --> 00:21:50.760 Benji Fisher: So if I choose plain text, I get these 2 options down here. 178 00:21:51.170 --> 00:21:52.850 Benji Fisher: and if I choose formatted 179 00:21:53.210 --> 00:21:56.720 Benji Fisher: text, I get 3 options. Yeah. 180 00:21:57.360 --> 00:21:59.220 Benji Fisher: which are are 181 00:21:59.270 --> 00:22:03.920 Benji Fisher: sort of similar variations on formatted text to variations on plain text. 182 00:22:04.230 --> 00:22:12.919 Simo Hellsten: Okay, yeah. Yeah. I don't see that. No. But I think there was. Some of them were little bit. So it's not so obvious that the things 183 00:22:13.210 --> 00:22:17.949 Simo Hellsten: under like here Bill, will change, especially on if it's kind of a 184 00:22:18.820 --> 00:22:19.810 Simo Hellsten: a 185 00:22:20.840 --> 00:22:23.040 Simo Hellsten: yeah, if it's something that you 186 00:22:23.450 --> 00:22:27.640 Simo Hellsten: ha! If you have a narrow, narrow narrows 187 00:22:27.780 --> 00:22:36.079 Simo Hellsten: screen, then you don't see what that things are changing. So II thinking one thing would be to add how to move that chosen option. 188 00:22:36.090 --> 00:22:39.090 Simo Hellsten: just move it around, depending where 189 00:22:39.490 --> 00:22:46.409 Simo Hellsten: the items are. But I was also thinking that instead of radio buttons, it would be in a way to step towards a moodle 190 00:22:46.790 --> 00:22:51.130 Simo Hellsten: if we started looking at this, each as each option as a 191 00:22:51.880 --> 00:22:53.029 Simo Hellsten: kind of a 192 00:22:55.380 --> 00:23:02.759 Simo Hellsten: separate card. And then, yeah, kind of but it could be you done so. But we could have details 193 00:23:03.620 --> 00:23:10.430 Simo Hellsten: element for each of these, and then inside the details, all other options. Because here we are kind of having 194 00:23:11.130 --> 00:23:15.670 Simo Hellsten: kind of extra input option here. 195 00:23:16.490 --> 00:23:24.269 Simo Hellsten: Because we don't. We only choose from the truth the option, an option kind of defines which 196 00:23:24.610 --> 00:23:29.190 Simo Hellsten: type of field it is. So it's kind of excessive, so we could. 197 00:23:29.240 --> 00:23:32.049 Benji Fisher: I don't know how how the plan is going to be. 198 00:23:32.220 --> 00:23:38.790 Simo Hellsten: But we could reduce some. and some stuff stuff that feels like extra. 199 00:23:40.060 --> 00:23:51.230 Benji Fisher: So so first of all, I'd like to point out. A few minutes ago Quinfan joined the meeting, and just now Thomas Howell joined us. And 200 00:23:52.610 --> 00:23:59.410 Benji Fisher: I think I want to focus less on the drawbacks of the current 201 00:24:00.090 --> 00:24:06.409 Benji Fisher: way it works, because Larry has indicated that 202 00:24:06.800 --> 00:24:08.050 Benji Fisher: that they are 203 00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:22.440 Benji Fisher: planning to replace this with something very different. you know it's it's a little surprising to to me, and I think to several of us that this got committed drupal core 204 00:24:22.700 --> 00:24:25.010 Benji Fisher: along with its plan to 205 00:24:25.310 --> 00:24:37.010 Benji Fisher: make changes. But you know, as as Larry is the project manager, that's his call. But you know, let's let's not focus 206 00:24:37.020 --> 00:24:45.919 Benji Fisher: too much on the way it currently works. Let's think more about where it's going, and assume that we will have 207 00:24:46.420 --> 00:24:51.880 Benji Fisher: some sort of modal interface by in time for drupal 10.2 208 00:24:52.370 --> 00:24:59.459 Benji Fisher: and and Larry, can you confirm that the plan is to have that done in time for 10.2, 209 00:25:01.190 --> 00:25:07.849 so I'm not. I don't think we have a commitment that we could pass the model done by 10.2. There's a good chance that it will get done. 210 00:25:07.860 --> 00:25:10.890 Lauri Eskola: It depends on whether the bookers 211 00:25:11.350 --> 00:25:16.089 Lauri Eskola: get done on time, but at the moment we are estimating, it seems to be done by 10.3 212 00:25:16.280 --> 00:25:24.609 Lauri Eskola: with the same. It's hard to make a commitment on the timeline. What I do want to highlight is that we have validated that 213 00:25:24.890 --> 00:25:26.800 Lauri Eskola: The usability of this 214 00:25:27.090 --> 00:25:32.150 Lauri Eskola: should be severe, superior over the experience and be replaced 215 00:25:32.570 --> 00:25:33.410 Lauri Eskola: with this. 216 00:25:34.140 --> 00:25:39.630 Lauri Eskola: so that it's not a you extra question from any perspective over what was there before? 217 00:25:42.210 --> 00:25:44.689 Lauri Eskola: So even though it is not ideal 218 00:25:44.850 --> 00:25:50.270 Lauri Eskola: it, it still. it's still an improvement over the status quo. And that's why we decided to go. 219 00:25:55.540 --> 00:26:01.550 Benji Fisher: Okay. So you're saying this, this intermediate stage is. in your opinion, already an improvement. 220 00:26:02.030 --> 00:26:13.280 Benji Fisher: And I understand you can't make a commitment. We understand how open source development works. Now, drupal development works. You can't make a commitment, but certainly the goal is to 221 00:26:13.290 --> 00:26:17.740 Benji Fisher: ha! Have something different for drupal 10.2. 222 00:26:19.110 --> 00:26:20.880 Lauri Eskola: That's at least the aspiration. 223 00:26:22.290 --> 00:26:27.279 Simo Hellsten: So did you conclude that this is better for creating 224 00:26:27.470 --> 00:26:35.660 Simo Hellsten: content types with lots of fields by a super like a experienced user. Because for me, this felt like, 225 00:26:35.720 --> 00:26:43.709 Simo Hellsten: very slow way, or more kind of slower way to do things. But that's a just a because I'm used to used to the other one. 226 00:26:43.810 --> 00:26:45.670 Simo Hellsten: because it has less steps 227 00:26:45.890 --> 00:26:48.750 Simo Hellsten: than this one and less movement 228 00:26:48.770 --> 00:26:51.010 Simo Hellsten: between, like around the screen. 229 00:26:51.570 --> 00:26:55.040 Simo Hellsten: So did you have a kind of a what kind of a 230 00:26:55.620 --> 00:27:00.210 Simo Hellsten: a set of tests you had? Oh, for what tasks you had for that testing? 231 00:27:00.740 --> 00:27:11.980 Lauri Eskola: Yeah. So we we did, testing with 6 users on each round, where half of the users were experienced users and half of half of the users where 232 00:27:13.900 --> 00:27:17.190 Lauri Eskola: and this was one of the designs that aye 233 00:27:17.390 --> 00:27:21.040 Lauri Eskola: received better results over the beginning. 234 00:27:21.180 --> 00:27:22.860 Lauri Eskola: over the starting point. 235 00:27:23.210 --> 00:27:29.879 Lauri Eskola: One system, we across the 2 groups. So that's how we decided to go with this. I do have to say that 236 00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:35.640 Lauri Eskola: there is some things that we know about site building, which is that in some cases. 237 00:27:35.900 --> 00:27:40.340 Lauri Eskola: A lot of the content modeling. It's done outside of Rupert, where 238 00:27:40.540 --> 00:27:49.489 Lauri Eskola: and that that's particular experience. Developer will side builders where they would maybe use spreadsheets or some some other tools to 239 00:27:49.560 --> 00:27:56.679 Lauri Eskola: defined abundant model beforehand. and then they would just simply 240 00:27:56.740 --> 00:27:59.549 Lauri Eskola: insert or enter that content model 241 00:27:59.780 --> 00:28:00.830 Lauri Eskola: to. 242 00:28:01.460 --> 00:28:07.630 Lauri Eskola: So we that's something we heard from from users, and we did have did have some users who are accustomed to that 243 00:28:08.060 --> 00:28:13.529 Lauri Eskola: kind of work for using that kind of workflow in day to day phases, even though we'd not this for that use case. 244 00:28:13.700 --> 00:28:18.499 Lauri Eskola: we did get positive positive feedback from them as well. 245 00:28:19.070 --> 00:28:22.300 Lauri Eskola: But yeah, I'd say that in the used cases we had. 246 00:28:22.390 --> 00:28:28.669 Lauri Eskola: we wanted them to do the content model in itself in to think about which field type they need to select 247 00:28:28.700 --> 00:28:31.220 Lauri Eskola: in this interface, not in a 248 00:28:31.350 --> 00:28:33.190 Lauri Eskola: stage study happening for 249 00:28:36.510 --> 00:28:46.739 Simo Hellsten: yeah. And another question, that kind of felt overwhelming in this interface is that instruction text for some of the items. 250 00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:59.749 Simo Hellsten: that kind of it's kind of overlapping, some of them, and different kind of the note uniform. So is is there is this text something that's is there a process for reviewing this text? 251 00:28:59.910 --> 00:29:04.650 Simo Hellsten: What it's ideal and what something requires? And this kind of 252 00:29:04.770 --> 00:29:09.159 Simo Hellsten: what is efficient. So is there some kind of a process for 253 00:29:09.310 --> 00:29:11.330 Simo Hellsten: developing those text. 254 00:29:11.630 --> 00:29:17.469 Lauri Eskola: So there's an issue. We we did want to review all of the text. So not all of us have text 255 00:29:19.200 --> 00:29:21.310 Lauri Eskola: favorite, beautiful worker 256 00:29:21.550 --> 00:29:30.549 Lauri Eskola: updated kind of the most layer in the incorrect text, or most wouldn't be using text. And there's certainly no 257 00:29:31.550 --> 00:29:35.680 Lauri Eskola: like, we are very open to changing or revisiting any of the text 258 00:29:35.940 --> 00:29:37.560 that are still in there. 259 00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:38.770 Lauri Eskola: So 260 00:29:39.750 --> 00:29:44.250 Lauri Eskola: maybe we can start planning 261 00:29:44.570 --> 00:29:46.399 child issues did not issue. 262 00:29:46.520 --> 00:29:48.230 Lauri Eskola: Well. 263 00:29:48.860 --> 00:29:51.120 Lauri Eskola: so that's what the power end issue 264 00:29:51.280 --> 00:29:57.349 Lauri Eskola: that we have. So that there's something like preview your Ui text or field ui, or something like that. 265 00:29:58.500 --> 00:30:05.439 Lauri Eskola: Your audio is garbling again 266 00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:11.390 Lauri Eskola: to work when done. I think we would be very 267 00:30:11.890 --> 00:30:13.380 that type of friendship you're saying 268 00:30:14.830 --> 00:30:15.620 it is going. 269 00:30:21.870 --> 00:30:25.849 Benji Fisher: So the the the issue that added 270 00:30:26.810 --> 00:30:31.259 Benji Fisher: this feature is 3, 3, 8, 9, 271 00:30:32.140 --> 00:30:37.050 Benji Fisher: 2000, no, I'm sorry. This is one that that that we've 272 00:30:37.330 --> 00:30:39.049 Benji Fisher: that Cmos added. 273 00:30:39.150 --> 00:30:56.569 Benji Fisher: the one that one that added them was 3, 3, 5, 6, 8, 9, 4 make field selection less overwhelming by introducing groups. And that is a child issue of this plan issue 274 00:30:57.010 --> 00:31:02.279 Benji Fisher: to improve the field creation experience, which is for the sake of the recording 275 00:31:02.500 --> 00:31:05.240 Benji Fisher: 3, 3, 4, 6, 5, 3, 9. 276 00:31:06.460 --> 00:31:08.919 So can I find the 277 00:31:09.050 --> 00:31:13.989 Benji Fisher: the issue for updating field text as a child of this or related. 278 00:31:15.300 --> 00:31:18.100 it's a Tron issue of one of these issues. 279 00:31:20.540 --> 00:31:22.579 Maybe this need for these issues. 280 00:31:24.400 --> 00:31:27.290 Lauri Eskola: the one that actually implemented 281 00:31:32.900 --> 00:31:35.640 Ralf Koller: paste at the refined field descriptions link 282 00:31:37.660 --> 00:31:38.760 Benji Fisher: this one. 283 00:31:41.310 --> 00:31:46.860 Benji Fisher: 3, 3, 7, 0 3, 2, 6 to refine field descriptions. 284 00:31:50.670 --> 00:31:53.289 Benji Fisher: I don't see any 285 00:31:53.600 --> 00:31:54.940 Benji Fisher: activity there. 286 00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:02.730 Benji Fisher: so I 287 00:32:03.770 --> 00:32:06.499 Benji Fisher: I'm also concerned that if the 288 00:32:06.980 --> 00:32:12.739 Benji Fisher: If the modal version of the process does not make it into 289 00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:14.849 Benji Fisher: drupal 10.2, 290 00:32:15.290 --> 00:32:18.640 Benji Fisher: but then makes it into drupal 10.3, say 291 00:32:19.240 --> 00:32:23.120 Benji Fisher: that will be changing the whole 292 00:32:23.790 --> 00:32:26.539 Benji Fisher: user experience for adding fields 293 00:32:26.680 --> 00:32:30.680 Benji Fisher: for one version of drupal and then changing it again. 294 00:32:31.720 --> 00:32:34.160 Benji Fisher: which which seems problematic 295 00:32:34.910 --> 00:32:41.759 Benji Fisher: But then also think thinking about how this is going to work 296 00:32:42.170 --> 00:32:45.810 Benji Fisher: as a modal. One 297 00:32:46.570 --> 00:32:55.129 Benji Fisher: problem with that is that I. It seems to me that it will add an extra click if I choose plain text, and then these options appear in a modal. 298 00:32:55.200 --> 00:33:05.720 Benji Fisher: and I say, hmm! Maybe I don't want plain text. I want to look at the options for formatted text. I first have to make a click to dismiss the modal. and then I can click on the second one 299 00:33:06.820 --> 00:33:09.289 Benji Fisher: and see the options for that 300 00:33:12.190 --> 00:33:17.040 Benji Fisher: although 301 00:33:17.120 --> 00:33:23.700 Benji Fisher: perhaps perhaps a fix, for that would be to have some sort of navigation within the modal 302 00:33:23.980 --> 00:33:27.169 Benji Fisher: to switch from one of these to the next. 303 00:33:30.370 --> 00:33:32.660 Simo Hellsten: and I think not. Seeing the options 304 00:33:32.700 --> 00:33:40.830 Simo Hellsten: right away is especially difficult for that selection list, because I think that's in a wrong place, because selection list has 305 00:33:40.980 --> 00:33:46.699 Simo Hellsten: plain text and numbers. So it, if it's at all possible, it would be really nice to 306 00:33:46.810 --> 00:33:51.630 Simo Hellsten: move the selection list options under plaintext and numbers. 307 00:33:58.150 --> 00:33:59.359 Benji Fisher: Aaron. Go ahead. 308 00:34:01.810 --> 00:34:03.929 Aaron McHale: Thanks. 309 00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:23.779 Aaron McHale: One of the reasons. I'm still keen on the the model approach with like a multi-step flow is because I've I've seen how this could work in in other systems. And I think it. It is really, I think it works really well. And actually, I can share my screen just to demonstrate the project. Ho! How it's done in Project Home assistant. 310 00:34:23.889 --> 00:34:27.879 Aaron McHale: Because I think that would be a good example. 311 00:34:27.929 --> 00:34:28.980 Aaron McHale: Me just 312 00:34:29.480 --> 00:34:31.530 Aaron McHale: find the 313 00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:34.499 Aaron McHale: and button to share my screen. 314 00:34:36.030 --> 00:34:41.750 Aaron McHale: Always a challenge. Sorry. I've just come back from holiday, so I'm still a bit slow. 315 00:34:42.150 --> 00:34:42.920 And 316 00:34:44.659 --> 00:34:46.860 Aaron McHale: yeah, I was just 317 00:34:47.560 --> 00:35:01.619 Aaron McHale: Okay. So like, I think you can see this. Basically, what we're looking at here is in home assistant. They have the concept of helpers, and you can decide what type of helper so it's it's very similar to selecting a field and drupal. 318 00:35:01.620 --> 00:35:22.600 Aaron McHale: So you could say, this is a model here for create helper, and it gives me all of these different options. And if I click on one like button. It's gonna take me to the second step, where I can give it a name and icon. But I can also click back if I wanna go and select a different one. So yes, this is just illustrate that this is the kind of thing I'm I'm imagining 319 00:35:22.710 --> 00:35:32.809 Aaron McHale: in my head how it would ultimately end up coming together in a model. And I think this is actually quite, quite good, because it doesn't. You know it doesn't overwhelm you with too many choices on one screen. 320 00:35:32.950 --> 00:35:39.900 Aaron McHale: And so, yeah, I just wanted to show that cause. I think this could be a good pattern to to follow, which I think is what the plan is. Anyway. 321 00:35:40.940 --> 00:35:44.250 Lauri Eskola: this is very similar to what we are planning. 322 00:35:44.360 --> 00:35:46.670 Lauri Eskola: Yeah, any other experience. 323 00:35:46.940 --> 00:35:47.730 Aaron McHale: Yeah. 324 00:35:47.870 --> 00:35:55.380 Benji Fisher: I guess going back to this page when you click, create new field. That's when the modal would pop up and it might have 325 00:35:55.770 --> 00:35:59.069 Benji Fisher: a similar structured. What Aaron is showing. Oh, I'm sorry. 326 00:35:59.240 --> 00:36:04.050 Aaron McHale: I forgot. I'm not sharing my screen. And let me stop sharing. And you can re-share. Yeah, yeah. 327 00:36:04.780 --> 00:36:06.049 Aaron McHale: there we go. 328 00:36:09.280 --> 00:36:12.579 Benji Fisher: And again the Zoom Ui has its problems 329 00:36:12.980 --> 00:36:15.060 Benji Fisher: selecting I 330 00:36:16.440 --> 00:36:18.360 Benji Fisher: although maybe this, this is 331 00:36:19.600 --> 00:36:29.949 Benji Fisher: the system component that gets used by. So anyway. So so I'm sharing my screen again. I think so. Maybe at this point 332 00:36:30.540 --> 00:36:40.680 Benji Fisher: clicking the create new field button is what would open the the modal and have an interface. Something like what Aaron was just demonstrating 333 00:36:40.710 --> 00:36:42.569 Benji Fisher: rather than going to this page. 334 00:36:43.310 --> 00:36:44.750 Lauri Eskola: Yeah, exactly. 335 00:36:52.620 --> 00:36:57.309 Lauri Eskola: Not sure. If that came through. III tried to say that. Yes, that's what we were thinking. 336 00:36:59.380 --> 00:37:01.190 Benji Fisher: yeah, we we did hear that. Thanks. 337 00:37:02.770 --> 00:37:09.360 Benji Fisher: so 338 00:37:09.820 --> 00:37:24.419 Benji Fisher: you know, 1 one thing I like to have is is some some work communication. We we have this plan issue. I commented on it a few weeks ago, and didn't get any reply there. 339 00:37:25.510 --> 00:37:26.400 And 340 00:37:27.380 --> 00:37:33.890 Benji Fisher: you know, with with with all the the activity going on, and and the the promises of further iterations. 341 00:37:34.250 --> 00:37:40.980 Benji Fisher: We'd we'd like to have some more visibility into that. And this this group does care a lot 342 00:37:41.400 --> 00:37:44.620 Benji Fisher: about this this feature and the work going on. 343 00:37:44.810 --> 00:37:51.390 Benji Fisher: We'd we'd like to help if we can. And we'd we'd like to see the progress that's being made. 344 00:37:51.630 --> 00:37:56.330 Benji Fisher: So if it could be in the comments on these plan issues or 345 00:37:56.470 --> 00:38:00.199 Benji Fisher: somewhere else. we'd we'd like to 346 00:38:01.010 --> 00:38:02.470 have have more 347 00:38:02.710 --> 00:38:03.890 Benji Fisher: communication. 348 00:38:07.110 --> 00:38:13.019 Lauri Eskola: Yeah, I think that's fair feedback. I think we could provide an update on the issue. I 349 00:38:15.380 --> 00:38:17.260 Lauri Eskola: the comment. I was actually 350 00:38:17.510 --> 00:38:24.459 Lauri Eskola: on holiday, probably when you posted a comment. But I'm not sure why I didn't see it after I came back. So yeah, I can 351 00:38:24.560 --> 00:38:34.210 Lauri Eskola: certainly update that the issue. And I think it's a good time to do that before the 10.2 release. so that we can then collaborate on the remaining 352 00:38:34.240 --> 00:38:35.260 Lauri Eskola: issues. 353 00:38:36.040 --> 00:38:37.950 Lauri Eskola: Yeah, 10 points per year. 354 00:38:39.920 --> 00:38:40.680 Benji Fisher: Go ahead 355 00:38:41.050 --> 00:38:49.360 Lauri Eskola: issues like refining the Ui text. And I'm doing ui refinement like what email has been recommending. I think it's I think it's a good time 356 00:38:49.440 --> 00:39:02.450 Lauri Eskola: to do some of those. So this we do have and you have my colleagues working on this, or available to help with any of the work until a release of 10.2 at least. So 357 00:39:02.540 --> 00:39:06.650 Lauri Eskola: we can, you know. work as a collective on these things 358 00:39:07.230 --> 00:39:08.030 Benji Fisher: right? 359 00:39:08.950 --> 00:39:16.439 Benji Fisher: And 10.2 is supposed to be released in December, but, Alpha, one is scheduled for the end of October. 360 00:39:19.360 --> 00:39:23.520 Benji Fisher: so I think that's probably the deadline for major changes like this. 361 00:39:25.990 --> 00:39:28.350 Benji Fisher: possibly the data 2 weeks later. 362 00:39:28.510 --> 00:39:30.490 Benji Fisher: But there's 363 00:39:31.300 --> 00:39:32.979 Benji Fisher: there's not a lot of time. 364 00:39:36.970 --> 00:39:48.580 Lauri Eskola: I do think that some of yeah, the modal based approach probably needs to be done by Beta. But some some of the things like changing the ui that probably could be done later. Grand cycle. 365 00:39:49.220 --> 00:39:54.820 Benji Fisher: Yeah. But sort of replacing all of this with a modal probably, you think can be done in 366 00:39:55.800 --> 00:39:58.750 Benji Fisher: in the Beta. I was thinking by the alpha, but 367 00:39:59.270 --> 00:40:02.759 Benji Fisher: it's only a 2 week difference, anyway, I'll go ahead and 368 00:40:04.130 --> 00:40:06.119 Aaron McHale: oh, sorry I'll I'll let Lori finish. 369 00:40:06.530 --> 00:40:13.629 Lauri Eskola: I just wanted to say one more thing that there's already people working on making this work with mobile. So it's not like work that we would be just starting now. 370 00:40:14.490 --> 00:40:15.840 Benji Fisher: Yeah, we understand. 371 00:40:18.400 --> 00:40:28.339 Aaron McHale: Thanks. Just one thing that I know has caused some confusion. Is the label field. Because, 372 00:40:28.390 --> 00:40:35.940 Aaron McHale: I it's it's quite easy even from using it. Using this interface myself. Another. I've heard. Other people have commented 373 00:40:35.970 --> 00:40:38.370 Aaron McHale: that the 374 00:40:38.550 --> 00:40:44.649 Aaron McHale: the label field is really easy to miss now, because your attention is drawn to the big grid of 375 00:40:44.680 --> 00:41:04.089 Aaron McHale: you know, options and so on. Quite a number of occasions when play with this, I've yeah completely forgot to fill in the label. And I suppose in this this modal new cell model approach? I think that the label field could probably be moved to a later step. So I wonder if that's something that Laurie is is being planned and or or looked at as well. 376 00:41:04.570 --> 00:41:15.369 Lauri Eskola: Yes, it is one of the reasons why we are doing the model based approaches. Or that is one of the problems that we want to address. That's why come up as part of the research as 377 00:41:15.780 --> 00:41:18.249 Lauri Eskola: a challenge. But it was. It was like 378 00:41:18.660 --> 00:41:22.809 Lauri Eskola: kind of listed more as an annoyance rather than an actual 379 00:41:23.910 --> 00:41:26.329 Lauri Eskola: box that will prevent people from using it. 380 00:41:26.350 --> 00:41:32.959 Lauri Eskola: I mean, do you want to make it convenient as well to use. That's why it is something we do not do want to address definitely. 381 00:41:33.420 --> 00:41:39.419 Benji Fisher: If I remember correctly, that specifically was pointed out by Roy 382 00:41:39.530 --> 00:41:44.429 Benji Fisher: on on the issue that implemented this. Go ahead, Thomas. 383 00:41:46.420 --> 00:41:59.230 Thomas Howell: Sorry that II got into this a little bit late today. But the question I have is, what's gonna happen both in the modal, really, in the modal instance, assuming that the work is done in time 384 00:41:59.370 --> 00:42:03.420 when contrive is adding additional field types. 385 00:42:05.950 --> 00:42:10.590 Lauri Eskola: So one triphas apis do provide similar kind of 386 00:42:11.710 --> 00:42:15.610 Lauri Eskola: listing. And your listings here as cordos. 387 00:42:15.930 --> 00:42:23.969 Lauri Eskola: so we've been collaborating with modules like power graphs, and others to make sure that they group group their fields 388 00:42:24.370 --> 00:42:26.330 Lauri Eskola: correctly 389 00:42:26.460 --> 00:42:31.460 Lauri Eskola: into view. I if they are not adding 390 00:42:31.840 --> 00:42:39.300 Lauri Eskola: or like. If they are not providing a group or adding to an existing group, they would be shown towards the end of this list. 391 00:42:40.670 --> 00:42:44.000 Lauri Eskola: I'm sorry. 392 00:42:44.070 --> 00:42:45.090 Lauri Eskola: Oh, go ahead! 393 00:42:45.370 --> 00:43:06.129 Thomas Howell: Will they show up as like a custom group or some such? So I'm just thinking of all of the customers that I saw in support who had custom field types that they just kind of created in custom modules. And they're they're adding it onto sites. And I'm just wondering what the impact will be for the existing base 394 00:43:06.200 --> 00:43:10.869 Thomas Howell: as well as how we're going to guide people to do things ideally in the future. 395 00:43:12.620 --> 00:43:19.419 Lauri Eskola: Yes, so they will show up in here, so there they can continue to use the the interface. It's just that they would be. 396 00:43:19.580 --> 00:43:21.969 Lauri Eskola: They would just show up as 397 00:43:22.880 --> 00:43:33.840 Lauri Eskola: similar to the link, but they would not necessarily have the so that there's no items that would show up below that when you click them because they're they're on group field types. 398 00:43:34.060 --> 00:43:48.169 Lauri Eskola: They might not have the icon or the description as well. But that's not going to be a regression over the existing Ui, because even in there that you could not show an icon or description. But you might be losing if that's 399 00:43:48.560 --> 00:43:56.030 Lauri Eskola: if you provided a group before that group could not be used anymore in this new ui, because we had to change 400 00:43:56.230 --> 00:44:00.399 Lauri Eskola: the mechanism that we use for the grouping. And because of the previous groupings, where 401 00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:04.320 Lauri Eskola: not matching how we wanted to group, it'd be also how we 402 00:44:04.370 --> 00:44:07.570 Lauri Eskola: many of users mentally map the fields. 403 00:44:09.270 --> 00:44:13.030 Benji Fisher: So are you saying that? There's going to be one more 404 00:44:13.190 --> 00:44:18.499 Benji Fisher: item in this grid for default, and when you click on that you'll see all the available 405 00:44:19.640 --> 00:44:25.490 Benji Fisher: ungrouped field types? Or are you saying that all the ungrouped field types will show up 406 00:44:26.660 --> 00:44:29.300 Benji Fisher: on on the same page as as this grid? 407 00:44:29.610 --> 00:44:32.999 Lauri Eskola: Dave will show up on the same page as the script. 408 00:44:33.200 --> 00:44:35.150 Lauri Eskola: That's individual options. 409 00:44:35.480 --> 00:44:36.350 Benji Fisher: really. 410 00:44:37.820 --> 00:44:38.720 Lauri Eskola: Yes. 411 00:44:43.590 --> 00:44:49.140 Benji Fisher: I'd like opinions from the group. I would 412 00:44:50.080 --> 00:44:57.969 Benji Fisher: think it would make more sense to have a default option here just in terms of consistency. 413 00:44:59.460 --> 00:45:01.500 and to reduce clutter. 414 00:45:02.370 --> 00:45:03.790 Benji Fisher: So I would 415 00:45:04.020 --> 00:45:08.620 Benji Fisher: that that's the way I would have thought to to design it. Do other people have opinions on that? 416 00:45:09.180 --> 00:45:14.390 Simo Hellsten: I have 2 opinions. My opinions are yes and no. 417 00:45:14.520 --> 00:45:20.650 Benji Fisher: In general, it's always a very bad idea to have a kind of general 418 00:45:21.070 --> 00:45:32.480 Simo Hellsten: group or kind of cost something that everything falls under. So in general, that's a bad idea. But here it would be something that kind of would help 419 00:45:32.500 --> 00:45:37.940 Simo Hellsten: not like it. Kind of would help not closing kind of that. 420 00:45:38.310 --> 00:45:40.870 Simo Hellsten: the whole page to those options. 421 00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:53.709 Simo Hellsten: So in general, it's a bad idea. But in this context, contents, content contexts. I think it would be something that kind of kind of would that benefits would. 422 00:45:54.170 --> 00:45:56.530 Simo Hellsten: Over parade that 423 00:45:56.640 --> 00:45:58.119 Simo Hellsten: cut off the problems. 424 00:46:00.770 --> 00:46:02.070 Benji Fisher: And. 425 00:46:03.460 --> 00:46:05.780 Benji Fisher: Thomas, I think you you were next. 426 00:46:06.280 --> 00:46:07.710 Thomas Howell: I know Ralph is 427 00:46:08.340 --> 00:46:09.350 Benji Fisher: okay. Ralph. 428 00:46:15.060 --> 00:46:16.810 Benji Fisher: Ralph, are you muted? 429 00:46:17.490 --> 00:46:22.280 Ralf Koller: Sorry apologies. Thank you. I'm not sure. Somehow 430 00:46:22.320 --> 00:46:25.830 Ralf Koller: it might be a reasonable step to thought of. 431 00:46:26.040 --> 00:46:28.279 Ralf Koller: indicate which 432 00:46:28.810 --> 00:46:39.599 Ralf Koller: card or element is basically a group, and which is an actual field cost. For example, the Boolean email and link. None of those have basically 433 00:46:40.050 --> 00:46:43.670 Ralf Koller: follow up options. And 434 00:46:44.400 --> 00:46:48.369 Ralf Koller: it is not directly apparent to someone, and if those 435 00:46:48.520 --> 00:46:56.830 Ralf Koller: custom fields get in as well that it might be confusing, or if those are 436 00:46:56.920 --> 00:47:01.999 Ralf Koller: combined as a group, and then you have those single ones. 437 00:47:02.140 --> 00:47:04.550 Ralf Koller: it's suboptimal from my point of view. 438 00:47:07.390 --> 00:47:14.950 Benji Fisher: Alright. So so, just to be clear, I'm using my browser tools to suggest that you know the last item on the list could be a default. 439 00:47:15.640 --> 00:47:17.720 Benji Fisher: probably wouldn't want the link. Icon 440 00:47:20.040 --> 00:47:25.060 Benji Fisher: and Ralph, you're pointing out that this really is just a single option 441 00:47:25.690 --> 00:47:28.650 Benji Fisher: rather than a group. So 442 00:47:29.520 --> 00:47:37.770 Benji Fisher: in that sense it it is consistent to have other single options added to this list. Thomas. 443 00:47:38.210 --> 00:47:39.050 Benji Fisher: go ahead. 444 00:47:39.650 --> 00:47:41.070 Thomas Howell: So 445 00:47:41.150 --> 00:47:50.339 Thomas Howell: I if if we could ensure that a hundred percent of what people have already added or would want to add would be single option options. 446 00:47:50.480 --> 00:47:58.609 Thomas Howell: then I would agree with that point. But just because they might be like Boolean doesn't mean that they are or will be. 447 00:47:59.370 --> 00:48:07.199 Thomas Howell: so from my perspective, I'm still worried about the issue of too much noise or too much clutter. 448 00:48:07.620 --> 00:48:09.700 Additionally. 449 00:48:09.920 --> 00:48:22.269 Thomas Howell: I'm worried that we need to if we're grouping things in in such an obvious, invisible way, and it's a deliberate action that that's being taken to ease the cognitive load. 450 00:48:22.500 --> 00:48:34.639 Thomas Howell: I'm wondering how we can train people to know that when they are adding, either from control or from local custom installs when they're adding field types 451 00:48:35.020 --> 00:48:42.879 Thomas Howell: like, how do they know when to add it to plain text, or let me pick number, for instance. 452 00:48:43.320 --> 00:48:49.509 Thomas Howell: and when they need to add it as its own thing, it, it feels like 453 00:48:50.630 --> 00:49:02.279 Thomas Howell: it makes the assumption that the initial developer of the site. So the consulting firm that built the site will be there to maintain the site after it's been released to 454 00:49:02.720 --> 00:49:08.160 Thomas Howell: maintaining or owning company, and that doesn't seem to be highly sustainable. 455 00:49:08.380 --> 00:49:25.630 Thomas Howell: And it's just because we're making things so visual this way. I'm I'm worried about changing what's already there without covering for those use cases, and then ensuring that we have an easy way for people to know. This is how they should be managing these things. This is what's expected. 456 00:49:27.320 --> 00:49:37.719 Benji Fisher: you know. I'm not too worried about the decision of whether to group or not. That is, up to the person who writes the contribor custom module that provides the field. 457 00:49:38.220 --> 00:49:45.249 Benji Fisher: and presumably when they see what happens they'll realize. Oh, I should implement this new Api 458 00:49:45.540 --> 00:49:48.149 Benji Fisher: and put it into a group, and then which group 459 00:49:48.500 --> 00:49:51.500 Benji Fisher: they put it into is up to their discretion. 460 00:49:52.670 --> 00:49:56.190 Benji Fisher: But 461 00:49:56.870 --> 00:49:57.919 Thomas Howell: But they're all. 462 00:49:58.040 --> 00:50:24.800 Thomas Howell: Thomas. You're already like the statement was made that we're not able to carry over the existing groups that people have already implemented. So what I'm saying is, we are ungrouping their stuff by making this switch. So let's propose, I am acmicorp, and I've got a website. And I've added 3 groups that each have like 3 or 4 variations per group 463 00:50:25.160 --> 00:50:40.510 Thomas Howell: when this change goes into effect, because the old grouping does not carry over to the new grouping that deprecation means that they're now going to have 12 new field types added in a huge list. They're no longer going to be grouped after the change. 464 00:50:42.180 --> 00:50:43.529 Benji Fisher: I see what you're saying 465 00:50:43.980 --> 00:50:49.080 Benji Fisher: so. The the old grouping can't really demo it, because I don't have 466 00:50:49.310 --> 00:50:52.980 Benji Fisher: a site within older version of drupal handy. 467 00:50:53.350 --> 00:50:58.109 Benji Fisher: But the the old version does have some grouping, for instance, all the 468 00:50:58.350 --> 00:51:01.299 Benji Fisher: reference types, or in one group. 469 00:51:02.130 --> 00:51:05.529 Benji Fisher: but go ahead, Erin. 470 00:51:07.550 --> 00:51:09.200 Aaron McHale: Thanks. 471 00:51:09.390 --> 00:51:16.369 Aaron McHale: I would not recommend introducing some kind of like default group. 472 00:51:16.470 --> 00:51:18.650 Aaron McHale: I think it could 473 00:51:18.880 --> 00:51:20.590 Aaron McHale: create 474 00:51:21.440 --> 00:51:22.950 more confusion. 475 00:51:23.070 --> 00:51:26.020 Aaron McHale: for 476 00:51:26.220 --> 00:51:29.499 Aaron McHale: People who are not familiar with this interface, or. 477 00:51:29.650 --> 00:51:32.850 Aaron McHale: you know, are for sites where 478 00:51:32.880 --> 00:51:41.429 Aaron McHale: fields haven't been. You know, field tapes haven't been grouped in in using the new approach. I think it's I think it's it's okay to have like 479 00:51:42.580 --> 00:51:57.469 Aaron McHale: custom fields or from Trev field. So we were just displaying until they're appropriately grouped. And I mean, it's not like I don't I? I'm trying to think of like a situation where a site would have like created lots and lots of field types. I think it's 480 00:51:57.560 --> 00:52:15.270 Aaron McHale: II don't. I don't think that's necessarily I mean somebody. Please feel free to provide that on another example. But II can't think of a situation where a site would have like a massive amount of custom field types or you know, they might have obviously control. Just add additional field types like paragraphs. 481 00:52:15.340 --> 00:52:21.370 Aaron McHale: But III think that the risk of having, like some kind of default group, is it just encourages 482 00:52:21.460 --> 00:52:45.329 Aaron McHale: encourages people or it makes easy for people to like use that as a dumping ground when they're in custom or control trip. And I don't think that's a pattern we want to encourage is the creation of a dumping ground, because that's just gonna make it like harder to find the field you want to find like, if we, we would always be creating like a sub, like a 2 tiered set of fields, like the fields that. 483 00:52:45.410 --> 00:52:55.429 Aaron McHale: or here nicely grouped. And then all of the other fields. And I just think that's not not not gonna result in a great experience for people. 484 00:52:57.140 --> 00:52:57.910 Benji Fisher: Okay? 485 00:52:58.940 --> 00:52:59.940 Benji Fisher: Seema 486 00:53:03.850 --> 00:53:09.949 Simo Hellsten: same. You're still muted. Yeah, so this is not about the the same topic. So this is another one. 487 00:53:10.420 --> 00:53:14.840 Simo Hellsten: Do we still talk? Talk about what to talk about the default option 488 00:53:15.390 --> 00:53:16.760 Simo Hellsten: cause I wasn't open. 489 00:53:17.140 --> 00:53:23.770 Benji Fisher: Let's wrap up that discussion. I'm getting the impression that that people don't like the idea of the default group. 490 00:53:24.340 --> 00:53:33.679 Lauri Eskola: Yeah. And I do. Wanna highlight that. The reason why we do not have a group for the leftovers is exactly what Aaron just said is that? 491 00:53:33.990 --> 00:53:37.460 Lauri Eskola: first, if we don't want to promote the idea 492 00:53:37.660 --> 00:53:43.290 Lauri Eskola: of of having the group as as a place where you can just dump your things, plus also, we wanted. 493 00:53:43.690 --> 00:53:50.460 Lauri Eskola: The goal was to have all of the groups and all of the field types be clear, regardless of in which stage you are 494 00:53:50.660 --> 00:53:51.350 Lauri Eskola: at. 495 00:53:51.610 --> 00:53:55.630 Lauri Eskola: and that would go against that, because it's probably if it's a general group. 496 00:53:55.690 --> 00:54:04.720 Lauri Eskola: you would not know what it. What do you actually have there? So you would have to open it to know what you have in there. But and and here, like with with the groupings, it's 497 00:54:05.020 --> 00:54:07.970 Lauri Eskola: the first decision that you make. 498 00:54:08.180 --> 00:54:11.259 Lauri Eskola: It should always get you to the right direction. 499 00:54:12.160 --> 00:54:23.689 Lauri Eskola: So you should not have to just have, like the kind of browsing mindset should not have to apply on this page, obviously, like people, might not always get make the right decision, and they have to go back and and redesign. But 500 00:54:23.840 --> 00:54:26.770 Lauri Eskola: that's that was the goal that they would not have to 501 00:54:28.230 --> 00:54:32.920 Lauri Eskola: test the groups. and they could make a distinction already at this point. 502 00:54:33.380 --> 00:54:34.090 Benji Fisher: Okay. 503 00:54:35.200 --> 00:54:38.139 Benji Fisher: yeah. So so that is resolved. 504 00:54:39.410 --> 00:54:46.280 Benji Fisher: drop that suggestion and go ahead. Simmo, you want to start something else. 505 00:54:46.970 --> 00:55:05.219 Simo Hellsten: I think it might might be also a usability issue. But especially, I think, accessibility issue. But I was wondering when when to start checking this for accessibility, because one thing I noticed here, because just trying something out, I noticed that because of it's using radio buttons 506 00:55:05.340 --> 00:55:19.390 Simo Hellsten: and that are put in a grid. It's kind of a conflicting for keyboard navigation. So it's so for a grid keyboard navigation should be up, down, left, right, but here, when you press, down it goes left. 507 00:55:19.600 --> 00:55:31.080 Simo Hellsten: and when you press up it it oh, no! Down goes right and up course left. And so that's kind of something that's it's defined. I don't know the level of the recommendation or patent, but kind of 508 00:55:31.290 --> 00:55:33.729 Simo Hellsten: there is. This kind of layout grid 509 00:55:34.300 --> 00:55:39.589 Benji Fisher: I've I'm I'm using the keyboard now, and I'll hit the down arrow. 510 00:55:42.930 --> 00:55:43.920 Benji Fisher: And 511 00:55:45.110 --> 00:55:47.790 Benji Fisher: it's basically a one dimensional 512 00:55:47.830 --> 00:55:51.550 Benji Fisher: list rather than a grid, and and if I hit the right arrow 513 00:55:53.240 --> 00:55:55.060 Benji Fisher: I get the same thing 514 00:55:58.000 --> 00:55:59.160 Benji Fisher: that's interesting. 515 00:56:00.210 --> 00:56:08.409 Benji Fisher: So right and left, arrows work as expected. But up and down arrows do not because it's not a true grid. 516 00:56:11.550 --> 00:56:16.779 Benji Fisher: not quite sure what I did to get this error message. 517 00:56:20.050 --> 00:56:21.160 Benji Fisher: But 518 00:56:22.270 --> 00:56:25.120 Benji Fisher: let's see, I think, Ralph. what's next? 519 00:56:28.900 --> 00:56:33.759 Ralf Koller: In regards of the keyboard navigation, I think it's not 520 00:56:35.230 --> 00:56:46.309 Ralf Koller: really a problem for screener the users because they get announced the type of context, they're in basically radio buttons. So they know which 521 00:56:46.620 --> 00:56:57.229 Ralf Koller: keyboard navigation that applies here. But I consider it more a problem for sighted users, because, for me. For example. 522 00:56:57.650 --> 00:57:17.139 Ralf Koller: when I saw those cards, my first initial idea was I would I would be able to tap through those basically from label to plain text to formally text to number, and so forth. But you get from label to plain text, and then to continue the continue button underneath and 523 00:57:17.810 --> 00:57:27.749 Ralf Koller: the expectation switches there, and you have no queue by, for example, assistive assistive device that you're in a different context here. 524 00:57:29.000 --> 00:57:36.889 Ralf Koller: And in case you don't realize, like me, for example, that those are radio buttons, and therefore the keyboard navigation is sequential. 525 00:57:37.830 --> 00:57:43.710 Simo Hellsten: though my initial question was, what is the correct time to start looking at those issues. 526 00:57:46.250 --> 00:57:58.000 Lauri Eskola: I think it's worth reporting these issues because of then we at least know to look for them when we do the modal based approach to make sure that they get addressed 527 00:57:58.010 --> 00:57:59.050 Lauri Eskola: in that. 528 00:57:59.870 --> 00:58:06.089 Lauri Eskola: yeah. So feel free to open any issues that there are with the current 529 00:58:07.050 --> 00:58:08.310 Lauri Eskola: implementation. 530 00:58:08.660 --> 00:58:10.970 Lauri Eskola: because they are valuable already 531 00:58:11.190 --> 00:58:12.570 Lauri Eskola: from that perspective. 532 00:58:12.710 --> 00:58:16.129 Benji Fisher: and and new issues should probably be children of this plan. Issue. 533 00:58:17.040 --> 00:58:17.910 Lauri Eskola: Yes. 534 00:58:24.170 --> 00:58:25.060 Benji Fisher: Aaron. 535 00:58:25.900 --> 00:58:35.060 Aaron McHale: thanks. yeah, I would actually, I guess building, a graph will say, but I would actually say, I think there it. It is even more of a problem for screen need to users, because 536 00:58:35.300 --> 00:58:47.460 Aaron McHale: from so an initial testing? Ii don't believe it's apparent that by selecting an option there are additional options that appear based on what? Slightly like 537 00:58:47.550 --> 00:58:58.350 Aaron McHale: as you're tabbing through a screen to the user is probably just getting information from that reo button like right now you're on plaintext, so it'll it'll announce your plain text, but it it 538 00:58:58.520 --> 00:59:04.160 Aaron McHale: then they're not gonna know that there is additional options below to choose from. 539 00:59:04.730 --> 00:59:07.739 Aaron McHale: And yeah, Ralph's confirming that. So like 540 00:59:08.040 --> 00:59:26.920 Aaron McHale: it's potentially quite problematic. The radio buttons for users of screener users. and that's something that we could we could potentially fix with you know, aria labels, or or etc. Like aria tags and things. But I do think that the model approach or will not necessarily model, but and 541 00:59:27.090 --> 00:59:47.659 Aaron McHale: changing to a multi-step flow with using links is is going to be way more accessible because you'll you'll get to like plain text. You'll activate that you'll click like. And then you get to a new form. That saying, Okay, now, I'm selecting my the next set of options right? So that's gonna be way more accessible for for anyone using a screen. Reader, I think 542 00:59:49.750 --> 00:59:55.340 Benji Fisher: simo in chats suggests that a details element would be an improvement here 543 00:59:57.960 --> 01:00:02.550 Benji Fisher: rather than I think, rather rather than having things show up down below. 544 01:00:02.810 --> 01:00:06.749 Benji Fisher: make this a details element that will open up. 545 01:00:07.090 --> 01:00:11.419 Benji Fisher: although I can see that would be very challenging in terms of the layout. 546 01:00:14.640 --> 01:00:16.230 Aaron McHale: Yeah, I 547 01:00:16.330 --> 01:00:31.979 Aaron McHale: just respond to that as well. III don't think a detailed development is a good idea here, because what's gonna happen is if you open it up the things inside it are either gonna be really small and really cramped in there assuming the layout doesn't change, or the layout is gonna reflow, which means that, like 548 01:00:32.330 --> 01:00:36.159 Aaron McHale: it, it could be a lot of visual noise 549 01:00:36.330 --> 01:00:56.269 Aaron McHale: for lack of error for people who just for for for certain users like, if you're you know, if you have a visual payment, or if you're new or diverging, and you struggle with like a lot of cognitive overload. That could be a lot of things moving around, you know, the layout, reflowing, expanding, contracting that could be quite challenging, I think. 550 01:00:59.360 --> 01:01:00.540 Benji Fisher: Yeah, Ralph. 551 01:01:06.570 --> 01:01:07.690 Benji Fisher: don't mute it. 552 01:01:09.060 --> 01:01:15.780 Ralf Koller: Sorry. One additional point in regards of screen read announcement is also cause you show it right now, Benji. 553 01:01:15.830 --> 01:01:27.240 Ralf Koller: in the context, for example, of reference and the additional options you have content user, basically the labels for them. But if you change, for example, to let's say, selection list. 554 01:01:28.000 --> 01:01:38.829 Ralf Koller: then you have the description for the list text for examples value stored text values, for example, Usc states, and so forth. But 555 01:01:39.620 --> 01:01:51.739 Ralf Koller: per default or automatically, those bullet pointed lists aren't announced. You just get list text list integer. So you'd not necessarily look 556 01:01:51.750 --> 01:01:53.139 Ralf Koller: for more 557 01:01:53.530 --> 01:01:55.610 Ralf Koller: with a screen, reader. So 558 01:01:59.530 --> 01:02:01.049 Ralf Koller: that might be also a point. 559 01:02:01.570 --> 01:02:06.950 Probably those accessibility issues will still be there 560 01:02:07.040 --> 01:02:10.859 Benji Fisher: when everything switches over to the mobile interface. 561 01:02:13.230 --> 01:02:15.889 Benji Fisher: just just guessing here, but but it seems likely 562 01:02:17.060 --> 01:02:26.700 Simo Hellsten: just a note. Just notice a note that for reusing an existing field we already have a model, but it's kind of a very plain. 563 01:02:27.470 --> 01:02:31.189 Simo Hellsten: There is a like that. Next to create new field. 564 01:02:31.470 --> 01:02:32.840 Simo Hellsten: That button 565 01:02:33.260 --> 01:02:38.329 Simo Hellsten: reuse an existing field is already a mode, also its colour. 566 01:02:38.540 --> 01:02:39.779 Simo Hellsten: It's feeding 567 01:02:42.940 --> 01:02:43.620 Benji Fisher: right 568 01:02:44.750 --> 01:02:51.939 Benji Fisher: just to. I recall that there there was a significant improvement in reusing the field a few months ago 569 01:02:52.040 --> 01:02:54.700 Benji Fisher: something I had an interest in for a long time. 570 01:02:55.370 --> 01:03:10.280 Aaron McHale: We are getting close to the end of the hour. Aaron, you wanted to say something. Yeah, just real quick. I think. Just what you were saying, Benji. I think if the model approach. But if it's combined with using links instead of the radio buttons that potentially could address the 571 01:03:10.560 --> 01:03:15.140 Aaron McHale: the the issue, because then the browser isn't trying to just like 572 01:03:15.360 --> 01:03:24.759 Aaron McHale: I haven't looked at the marker, but semantically like. If everything is wrapped in a link. Then everything is just like paragraph elements, but likes right? So the browser will just read everything out in theory. 573 01:03:32.560 --> 01:03:38.029 Benji Fisher: and I'd I'd like to return just for a minute to the question of 574 01:03:38.400 --> 01:03:48.979 Benji Fisher: what happens if the modals don't make it into 10.2 I've been focusing on the user interface. But I 575 01:03:49.210 --> 01:03:52.029 Benji Fisher: I guess behind that is the Api 576 01:03:52.520 --> 01:03:55.170 Benji Fisher: additions. Where 577 01:03:55.400 --> 01:04:02.169 Benji Fisher: can trip module developers have to specify a group in an icon for the fields that they create. 578 01:04:03.220 --> 01:04:09.209 Benji Fisher: And I guess that is going to be stable as we move from this to 579 01:04:09.910 --> 01:04:13.490 Benji Fisher: the the mobile approach. Larry, can you confirm? 580 01:04:13.670 --> 01:04:15.829 Lauri Eskola: Yes, yeah, yes, and that's 581 01:04:16.670 --> 01:04:24.800 Lauri Eskola: specifically the the reason why I wanted to work in this was because of the modal work is is heavily blocked by auto work, and we wanted to introduce. Use this Api 582 01:04:25.310 --> 01:04:32.840 Lauri Eskola: earlier rather than later in the release cycle, so that at least the most prominent country but contract modules could be updated. 583 01:04:33.190 --> 01:04:37.070 Lauri Eskola: Do you update their groups before the release? 584 01:04:39.270 --> 01:04:44.280 Lauri Eskola: So the Api itself is stable. But the Ui would have to to change 585 01:04:44.690 --> 01:04:45.400 right? 586 01:04:47.800 --> 01:04:49.859 Benji Fisher: And I wonder? 587 01:04:50.820 --> 01:04:57.249 Benji Fisher: so I guess it's it's not likely that this will be 588 01:04:57.400 --> 01:05:04.670 Benji Fisher: reverted if the Modals aren't ready in time. But I wonder if it's possible to 589 01:05:06.380 --> 01:05:15.290 Benji Fisher: make this and an option like in the user interface, to tell people, oh, try out the new experimental ui. 590 01:05:15.870 --> 01:05:23.759 Benji Fisher: or sick with the old one. you know the the same sort of thing that that Jira does when it introduces new feature. 591 01:05:24.660 --> 01:05:30.649 Benji Fisher: It would probably choose its own group. Larry says in slack. I'm not sure what that refers to. 592 01:05:32.700 --> 01:05:37.480 Lauri Eskola: That was in response to Rolf's earlier comment about geolocation. 593 01:05:38.820 --> 01:05:40.610 Lauri Eskola: About 594 01:05:40.950 --> 01:05:43.950 Lauri Eskola: experimental field. 2 eyes I think we are 595 01:05:44.350 --> 01:05:45.170 Lauri Eskola: meeting. 596 01:05:46.040 --> 01:05:49.830 Lauri Eskola: It's it's gonna be challenging for us to revert to changes because of 597 01:05:50.270 --> 01:05:56.380 Lauri Eskola: I mean it. It could be done in theory, for sure. But it's not straightforward. That's just reverting one issue. Because there is 598 01:05:56.940 --> 01:06:07.450 Lauri Eskola: it. It's a complex set of issues that are, it's it's a multiple. It's multiple issues that are modifying this. 599 01:06:07.630 --> 01:06:13.330 Lauri Eskola: yeah, I do want to highlight that the field Ui is technically a module that is optional. 600 01:06:13.440 --> 01:06:14.710 Lauri Eskola: So 601 01:06:15.790 --> 01:06:22.649 Lauri Eskola: there could be. We could provide a contract module with the 10.1 snapshot of the field. Ui. 602 01:06:23.940 --> 01:06:26.430 Lauri Eskola: and it would probably be easier 603 01:06:27.440 --> 01:06:29.360 Lauri Eskola: not reverting the core changes. 604 01:06:29.610 --> 01:06:35.849 Benji Fisher: Okay? And and we are at time. So thanks all for the discussion and 605 01:06:36.370 --> 01:06:40.709 Benji Fisher: and we. I'm sure we'll return to this in 606 01:06:40.740 --> 01:06:42.139 Benji Fisher: in the near future. 607 01:06:42.510 --> 01:06:43.770 Lauri Eskola: Yeah. 608 01:06:43.960 --> 01:06:49.039 Lauri Eskola: thanks for all the feedback. I do. Wanna highlight that there's there was a lot of valuable insight 609 01:06:49.560 --> 01:06:56.479 Lauri Eskola: for us, and also highlights. How critically important it is for us to get that model work done. 610 01:06:56.730 --> 01:07:06.229 Benji Fisher: And let me just quickly read these 2 comments from the chat. Quinn says, glad that we go with the modal approach because modules focus user attention on a specific task. 611 01:07:06.500 --> 01:07:13.870 Benji Fisher: I also like the versatility of modals which can display various fields as shown earlier, you just can click the back button to go back and select another option. 612 01:07:14.930 --> 01:07:21.039 Benji Fisher: And then Aaron's comments. He suggests, perhaps a core expense experimental module. 613 01:07:23.750 --> 01:07:28.270 Benji Fisher: We are a minute over so again. Thanks for coming, and we'll be back next week. 614 01:07:28.890 --> 01:07:29.800 Aaron McHale: Thanks. 615 01:07:30.140 --> 01:07:33.810 Lauri Eskola: Thanks. Last weekend.