WEBVTT 50 00:08:44.460 --> 00:08:53.409 Benji Fisher: welcome. This is the drupal usability meeting for October sixth, 2023. I'm Benji Fisher moderating, and also here are Ralph Kohler. 51 00:08:53.540 --> 00:08:56.390 Benji Fisher: who's sharing his screen, and we'll start the discussion. 52 00:08:56.900 --> 00:09:02.000 Benji Fisher: Aaron, Cale, Emma Harle, and Simo Helston. So go ahead, Ralph. 53 00:09:02.910 --> 00:09:05.439 Ralf Koller: It's just a brief 54 00:09:05.950 --> 00:09:26.469 Ralf Koller: one revisiting the issue from last week's or the week before. Not sure anymore. It's about allow to chase for the blocks and regions on the block layout administration page. It's it's issue number 3, 2, 7, 3, 1, 7, 3. 55 00:09:26.490 --> 00:09:32.539 Ralf Koller: And the person who was or is actively working on the issue 56 00:09:32.570 --> 00:09:41.099 Ralf Koller: already implemented most of the suggestions, but he surfaced one detail 57 00:09:41.160 --> 00:09:43.449 Ralf Koller: we haven't really 58 00:09:45.200 --> 00:09:48.019 Ralf Koller: minded when we were discussing 59 00:09:48.200 --> 00:09:55.579 Ralf Koller: the issue, and I just demonstrated I've applied the patch, the recent one, for example. 60 00:09:55.910 --> 00:10:00.040 Ralf Koller: I potentially look for the powered butruple 61 00:10:00.830 --> 00:10:04.150 Ralf Koller: patch, and, as you can see, it got filtered. 62 00:10:04.550 --> 00:10:15.200 Ralf Koller: But it's way beneath the fold and just at the bottom. And that's the point. he 63 00:10:15.480 --> 00:10:21.149 Ralf Koller: edit. Basically, some go to links, go to the items found 64 00:10:21.430 --> 00:10:30.339 Ralf Koller: which scrolls and then edit as well. On every filtered options one filtered change. 65 00:10:30.660 --> 00:10:35.660 Ralf Koller: Once the count we suggested 66 00:10:35.960 --> 00:10:41.040 Ralf Koller: that in that block region something got footed out, but as well as 67 00:10:41.340 --> 00:10:46.760 Ralf Koller: a link back to the filter. point is. 68 00:10:47.390 --> 00:10:57.680 Ralf Koller: there are 2 aspects. First, there isn't really. And on the other hand, the clear filter button was also added. 69 00:10:58.540 --> 00:11:08.660 Ralf Koller: there's more detail in the comments, but in general it's about the pattern of scrolling something 70 00:11:09.620 --> 00:11:14.369 Ralf Koller: I was unable to find anywhere in drupal and point is. 71 00:11:15.850 --> 00:11:17.870 Ralf Koller: it's definitely a good thing 72 00:11:19.010 --> 00:11:31.560 Ralf Koller: to not to just focus. And as I, if, as far as I remember. we recommend it directly, but otherwise make it basically and intentional steps 73 00:11:31.610 --> 00:11:33.630 Ralf Koller: for 74 00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:44.499 Ralf Koller: people with with vestibular disorder in particular. And it could be problematic if if it's if they are unprepared. And also. It's also 75 00:11:44.540 --> 00:11:58.069 Ralf Koller: Mike Gifford asked a friend of him to test who has with stability disorder, and he confirmed that that scrolling is a triggering event. So 76 00:11:58.150 --> 00:12:00.790 Ralf Koller: with the. If the in the 77 00:12:01.710 --> 00:12:11.380 Ralf Koller: the device reduce motion is active, then it should be jumping instead of scrolling. But my question is. 78 00:12:11.410 --> 00:12:29.310 Ralf Koller: For me it looks like that. The change filter is sort of redundant on every block region. If it would make sense to have one single, basically back to back to top button in the 79 00:12:29.640 --> 00:12:36.230 Ralf Koller: lower right corner, or in the center, or wherever. and to provide some sort of 80 00:12:36.470 --> 00:12:41.480 Ralf Koller: unified pattern that could be used anywhere else in Tripol as well, maybe. 81 00:12:41.800 --> 00:12:43.800 Ralf Koller: but in the current 82 00:12:44.540 --> 00:12:47.440 Ralf Koller: state of the patch 83 00:12:48.180 --> 00:12:49.710 Ralf Koller: I'm not sure if it's 84 00:12:50.500 --> 00:12:52.579 Ralf Koller: a good thing 85 00:12:52.790 --> 00:12:55.409 Ralf Koller: at the moment, and therefore I thought it would be. 86 00:12:55.630 --> 00:13:00.359 Ralf Koller: and a good idea to briefly revisit and to get a few more opinions about that. 87 00:13:02.690 --> 00:13:17.029 Benji Fisher: Okay, II have a few comments. I'll give other people a chance first. But could you say again, what disability has problems with scrolling best? I don't know, was pronounced correctly with stipulate disorder. 88 00:13:17.110 --> 00:13:23.839 Ralf Koller: vestibular, vestibular. I can post a link into the chat with 89 00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:29.139 Ralf Koller: the different kinds of with stability disorders. 90 00:13:29.810 --> 00:13:30.579 Benji Fisher: Thank you. 91 00:13:31.680 --> 00:13:38.349 Benji Fisher: okay. Anyone else have comments, suggestions. 92 00:13:38.690 --> 00:13:39.760 Benji Fisher: questions. 93 00:13:42.770 --> 00:13:54.089 Emma Horrell: can I just check? So at the moment those jump 2 links take you down the page. But there's no way to get back up apart from scrolling, is what you were saying, Ralph. 94 00:13:54.910 --> 00:14:01.790 Ralf Koller: No, the even the back down to the first match basically is also 95 00:14:01.990 --> 00:14:07.750 Ralf Koller: not in place, or the filter in general is not in place that is added in the patch. 96 00:14:07.770 --> 00:14:09.490 Ralf Koller: But yeah, I just 97 00:14:09.630 --> 00:14:24.090 Ralf Koller: the the developer edit. The go to the bottom link as well as edit to every block region that change filter link you think can see here here. And if you click that, you get back up. 98 00:14:25.020 --> 00:14:26.530 Emma Horrell: Okay. 99 00:14:28.760 --> 00:14:35.600 Emma Horrell: I think, like you saying back to top makes more sense, more sense, as the sort of 100 00:14:37.050 --> 00:14:39.770 Emma Horrell: anti-patent, because that means you're having to. 101 00:14:40.790 --> 00:14:54.579 Emma Horrell: You have to just try it out, don't you? You have to press it, and then press it again to work out that it's taking you back up the way so my thought would be a back to top button could be a better option. 102 00:14:57.270 --> 00:15:06.220 Emma Horrell: but that's not really based on any that's based on patterns that I've seen rather than any heuristic good practice. 103 00:15:09.880 --> 00:15:18.960 Simo Hellsten: That's that's really good habit. Next to that information about filtered out content, so that 104 00:15:18.980 --> 00:15:28.179 Simo Hellsten: there is something that the action to where you can go to show those. So it's not the best possible 105 00:15:28.440 --> 00:15:39.759 Simo Hellsten: thing, but it's something that you can. There's an action you can take right next to those, but not that you would see, but something. It's filtered out so you can do something right away from that location 106 00:15:40.290 --> 00:15:44.340 Simo Hellsten: to start so. And if it's back to top, then it kind of 107 00:15:44.530 --> 00:15:48.430 Simo Hellsten: where where is the top? Is it it 108 00:15:48.880 --> 00:15:54.039 Simo Hellsten: that block layout? So it's it's the future is not the top 109 00:15:54.160 --> 00:15:57.519 Simo Hellsten: in a way. So it's, I think. 110 00:15:58.220 --> 00:16:06.300 Simo Hellsten: visually it's a little bit confusing. But I think when you, if us or property is solid. cool, filtered. 111 00:16:07.190 --> 00:16:13.380 Simo Hellsten: and then you have right there that change future. It's kind of something you can. 112 00:16:19.300 --> 00:16:22.470 Benji Fisher: Okay, I have a few opinions here, first of all. 113 00:16:23.370 --> 00:16:28.990 Benji Fisher: Don't think that having the 114 00:16:29.340 --> 00:16:37.960 Benji Fisher: item below the fold is such a big problem that it's worth the complexity of adding a link to scroll to it. 115 00:16:39.040 --> 00:16:45.819 Benji Fisher: I don't think any theme is going to have so many regions that 116 00:16:46.200 --> 00:16:50.739 Benji Fisher: scrolling past the the empty regions is a serious problem. 117 00:16:52.100 --> 00:16:55.650 Benji Fisher: second. 118 00:16:56.330 --> 00:17:01.750 Benji Fisher: a minor point, I think filtered is not the best choice of word 119 00:17:02.130 --> 00:17:04.589 Benji Fisher: I would say, either filtered out 120 00:17:04.910 --> 00:17:08.129 Benji Fisher: or hidden, and I'd probably go for hidden 121 00:17:09.680 --> 00:17:12.700 Benji Fisher: And third. 122 00:17:12.720 --> 00:17:17.569 Benji Fisher: rather than have a link to go back to the top of the page 123 00:17:17.849 --> 00:17:20.060 Benji Fisher: and repeat that link every time. 124 00:17:21.960 --> 00:17:25.780 Benji Fisher: I would rather make the filter 125 00:17:26.420 --> 00:17:28.580 Benji Fisher: sticky. 126 00:17:28.850 --> 00:17:34.040 Benji Fisher: So, Ralph, could you open? Maybe another tab the content page 127 00:17:34.610 --> 00:17:35.940 Ralf Koller: 1 s. 128 00:17:40.510 --> 00:17:41.350 Ralf Koller: Yeah. 129 00:17:42.660 --> 00:17:45.590 Benji Fisher: Oh, I don't have 130 00:17:47.530 --> 00:17:52.730 Benji Fisher: So so maybe maybe 131 00:17:53.040 --> 00:17:58.689 Benji Fisher: in a few minutes I'll be screen sharing. And II can demonstrate, because I've installed the 132 00:17:59.110 --> 00:18:00.090 Benji Fisher: Umami 133 00:18:00.790 --> 00:18:04.059 Benji Fisher: Demo site. So I have some content to show. 134 00:18:04.360 --> 00:18:09.359 Benji Fisher: But if you do have content to show, and you select one or more 135 00:18:09.380 --> 00:18:10.470 Benji Fisher: nodes. 136 00:18:10.730 --> 00:18:14.799 Benji Fisher: Then you get a floating, or or you get a fixed 137 00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:21.480 Benji Fisher: little form at the bottom for applying actions. 138 00:18:24.180 --> 00:18:28.520 Benji Fisher: and I guess that's totally hidden at this point, since you don't have any content. 139 00:18:28.680 --> 00:18:30.060 Ralf Koller: The bulk options. 140 00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:33.380 Benji Fisher: So so there there is 141 00:18:33.590 --> 00:18:35.520 Benji Fisher: another frequently used 142 00:18:36.190 --> 00:18:42.500 Benji Fisher: admin page and drupal that uses that pattern, and I think it would make sense to 143 00:18:42.890 --> 00:18:47.360 Benji Fisher: do something similar here, but maybe make it fixed at the top of the screen 144 00:18:47.490 --> 00:18:49.310 Benji Fisher: rather than the bottom of the screen. 145 00:18:51.020 --> 00:18:53.860 Benji Fisher: and then 146 00:18:56.410 --> 00:19:05.219 Benji Fisher: I don't know. Maybe this is a design question rather than usability question, or maybe other people have different opinions. 147 00:19:05.280 --> 00:19:08.639 Benji Fisher: But rather than put the message of how many 148 00:19:08.740 --> 00:19:13.200 Benji Fisher: filtered or hidden items there are, rather than putting that on a separate line. 149 00:19:13.510 --> 00:19:14.910 Benji Fisher: I think there's 150 00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:21.270 Benji Fisher: plenty of room to put it on the same line as the region name 151 00:19:21.310 --> 00:19:22.700 Benji Fisher: and the place block button. 152 00:19:23.340 --> 00:19:25.160 Ralf Koller: 1 s. 153 00:19:25.530 --> 00:19:33.989 Ralf Koller: That is some, of course, that's one of the problems I've mentioned in the in the comments. Basically, you have the 154 00:19:35.470 --> 00:19:41.779 Ralf Koller: for block regions that have no matches. You have a consistent height, but 155 00:19:42.430 --> 00:19:44.619 Ralf Koller: log regions with filtered out 156 00:19:44.800 --> 00:19:55.699 Ralf Koller: changes with full that our blocks have a different height, and that way some it's got and steady. And one suggestion 157 00:19:55.710 --> 00:20:02.830 Ralf Koller: I made in here is the following oops. It's just chopped together with 158 00:20:03.860 --> 00:20:09.860 Ralf Koller: new tap. with devtools basically to apply something like that. 159 00:20:10.540 --> 00:20:14.429 Ralf Koller: that the the actions are in the block region 160 00:20:14.470 --> 00:20:19.349 Ralf Koller: row, and the information what is filtered, or if there are no block regions 161 00:20:19.380 --> 00:20:26.709 Ralf Koller: are underneath that way the height would be consistent. And it's also a separation of concerns that way. 162 00:20:37.860 --> 00:20:39.140 Benji Fisher: Yeah, I think the 163 00:20:39.160 --> 00:20:40.760 Benji Fisher: consistency 164 00:20:40.980 --> 00:20:42.749 Benji Fisher: is an improvement. 165 00:20:43.850 --> 00:20:49.670 Benji Fisher: On the other hand, it makes the scrolling problem worse, since you're taking up 166 00:20:49.940 --> 00:20:54.570 Benji Fisher: more vertical space. And I 167 00:20:56.430 --> 00:20:58.249 Benji Fisher: I wonder if 168 00:20:59.400 --> 00:21:04.619 Benji Fisher: you know, the the opposite approach might work, combining with my previous 169 00:21:04.790 --> 00:21:10.440 Benji Fisher: suggestion of putting the message on the same line as the region name. 170 00:21:11.870 --> 00:21:13.130 than hiding 171 00:21:13.260 --> 00:21:14.280 Benji Fisher: the 172 00:21:14.980 --> 00:21:18.630 Benji Fisher: no blocks, message and and and report. And instead, having 173 00:21:19.070 --> 00:21:20.120 Benji Fisher: the 174 00:21:20.410 --> 00:21:23.240 Benji Fisher: 0 hidden items message 175 00:21:24.250 --> 00:21:29.520 Benji Fisher: I don't feel strongly about any of those. They're just suggestions. 176 00:21:29.570 --> 00:21:35.740 Benji Fisher: and I see that Thomas Howell has has also joined us. And Thomas, I think you probably remember we 177 00:21:36.060 --> 00:21:37.730 Benji Fisher: talked about this issue 178 00:21:38.750 --> 00:21:42.000 Benji Fisher: one or 2 weeks ago about filtering 179 00:21:42.910 --> 00:21:45.200 Benji Fisher: blocks on the block layout page. 180 00:21:45.930 --> 00:21:47.870 Thomas Howell: Yeah. thank you. 181 00:21:51.670 --> 00:21:56.230 Benji Fisher: Yeah. The the suggestions that II do feel strongly about are 182 00:21:56.770 --> 00:22:01.019 Benji Fisher: rather than having a link to go back to the top of the page. 183 00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:06.580 Benji Fisher: which people generally have 184 00:22:06.630 --> 00:22:12.130 Benji Fisher: a key on their keyboard, right? The home page will generally scroll to the top of page, anyway. 185 00:22:12.340 --> 00:22:15.210 Benji Fisher: rather than have that, I'd I'd rather make the 186 00:22:15.870 --> 00:22:19.190 Benji Fisher: filter stay on the screen. 187 00:22:28.060 --> 00:22:35.690 Thomas Howell: So when I'm sorry I should have raised my hand. Is right? If I comment, yeah, go ahead. 188 00:22:36.300 --> 00:22:48.850 Thomas Howell: I I'm thinking, based on what I've heard. So in the problem of scrolling. Would it be possible within the filter to 189 00:22:49.010 --> 00:22:54.349 Thomas Howell: again, I think this is is not necessarily the right choice, but 190 00:22:56.260 --> 00:23:09.660 Thomas Howell: regardless of whether we follow Ralph's recommendation or this recommendation. That's on the showing right now. Being able to jump somewhere in the list like go like sort of like a jump by 10 191 00:23:10.330 --> 00:23:23.080 Thomas Howell: from the filter. So if the filter stays at the top of the page, and you have an ability to jump down. It would reduce the load when it comes to interacting with long lists. 192 00:23:26.520 --> 00:23:29.209 Is that a type of thing that 193 00:23:29.340 --> 00:23:42.320 Thomas Howell: because there's the potential for a solution, it can help us determine which. Which of these solutions works for us and then make a follow-up issue to potentially address scrolling. Because 194 00:23:42.570 --> 00:23:49.009 Thomas Howell: if scrolling is going to be a problem, no matter what, then it sounds like. That's something that we need to just recommend gets fixed 195 00:23:50.650 --> 00:23:54.999 Thomas Howell: and then make the best decision. Assuming that in the future we can solve that problem 196 00:23:55.030 --> 00:23:59.630 Thomas Howell: rather than making compromises in how we handle these particular issues. 197 00:24:04.030 --> 00:24:09.299 Benji Fisher: So you're suggesting that we put off the question of scrolling to a follow up issue. 198 00:24:09.360 --> 00:24:21.910 Thomas Howell: Correct like. Let's let's figure out how we in in the assumed world, we work against what we, what we believe will be the best interface 199 00:24:21.990 --> 00:24:23.070 Thomas Howell: here. 200 00:24:23.810 --> 00:24:38.039 Thomas Howell: Either. How Ralph represented it, how it is here, but making those decisions and not worrying about scrolling as an issue, but marking it as an issue, and that is a follow-up issue to be addressed correct. 201 00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:50.150 Thomas Howell: And we can put suggestions about how someone might handle that. We can think about it. But let's move as much of that cognitive load from this discussion into the future, so that we make certain 202 00:24:50.450 --> 00:24:52.149 the way this looks 203 00:24:52.580 --> 00:24:54.510 Thomas Howell: works for 204 00:24:54.970 --> 00:25:17.089 Thomas Howell: small sites as well as large because I'd hate to make a decision worrying about a large site when there aren't. There are many sites that don't have many regions and making them handicap, or I should not use that making them accessible. 205 00:25:17.790 --> 00:25:22.780 Thomas Howell: Yes, making them accessible in a way that works 206 00:25:23.180 --> 00:25:26.850 Thomas Howell: in all contexts is very important 207 00:25:29.160 --> 00:25:36.980 Thomas Howell: so that because we're not going to change the number of rows, no matter how much we squeeze it down 208 00:25:38.490 --> 00:25:41.990 Thomas Howell: like how we arrange. That doesn't change 209 00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:53.790 Thomas Howell: the fact that you still have to scroll through these things. So being able to navigate scrolling long lists of regions is a separate problem than how each region is handled. 210 00:25:53.830 --> 00:25:56.270 Thomas Howell: and that's why I would recommend separating them. 211 00:26:01.420 --> 00:26:03.609 Benji Fisher: I certainly think these 212 00:26:03.810 --> 00:26:07.509 Benji Fisher: refinements could be put off to a follow up issue, and 213 00:26:08.800 --> 00:26:12.319 Benji Fisher: I would like to leave that decision to the people working on the issue. 214 00:26:16.730 --> 00:26:18.960 Benji Fisher: Any other 215 00:26:20.170 --> 00:26:23.580 Benji Fisher: points on on this issue? Questions, comments, suggestions. 216 00:26:28.360 --> 00:26:37.479 Benji Fisher: I think I'm I'm the most opinionated one on on this issue. What? What do you think of my suggestion that that we don't need 217 00:26:37.890 --> 00:26:40.390 Benji Fisher: the go to? Item link? 218 00:26:42.470 --> 00:26:49.270 Benji Fisher: Yeah, again. it's only useful. If you've filtered out 219 00:26:49.660 --> 00:26:59.849 Benji Fisher: almost everything, as as in this example, you filtered it down to one item. and in that case you only have to scroll for as many rows as you have regions. 220 00:27:00.080 --> 00:27:01.560 Benji Fisher: so I don't think it's 221 00:27:02.020 --> 00:27:05.790 Benji Fisher: worth the complexity of a link. When what do? What do you think of that 222 00:27:06.030 --> 00:27:07.019 Benji Fisher: point of view? 223 00:27:17.320 --> 00:27:19.340 Benji Fisher: Go ahead. 224 00:27:19.900 --> 00:27:23.070 Ralf Koller: I think I agree. But or may I? 225 00:27:23.300 --> 00:27:26.620 Ralf Koller: I also agree with Thomas? So it might be 226 00:27:28.010 --> 00:27:36.930 Ralf Koller: a good choice to move the whole scrolling part. to follow up issue, and when that 227 00:27:37.210 --> 00:27:40.460 Ralf Koller: issue itself is committed, C. 228 00:27:40.660 --> 00:27:42.160 Ralf Koller: What the feedback is. 229 00:27:42.300 --> 00:27:45.260 Ralf Koller: and see it in real world. 230 00:27:45.740 --> 00:27:54.629 Ralf Koller: complex as well as simple. Sites, less complex sites, and that way then make an informed decision. Otherwise 231 00:27:55.870 --> 00:27:58.030 Ralf Koller: it's more or less assumption. It's 232 00:27:58.790 --> 00:28:01.430 Ralf Koller: too challenging to 233 00:28:02.430 --> 00:28:04.640 Ralf Koller: make sure every context 234 00:28:06.380 --> 00:28:07.500 is. 235 00:28:08.290 --> 00:28:10.000 Ralf Koller: why did a good 236 00:28:11.200 --> 00:28:14.050 Ralf Koller: user user experience in that regard? So 237 00:28:14.580 --> 00:28:19.140 Ralf Koller: I would vote for a follow-up with you about the whole scrolling. 238 00:28:19.540 --> 00:28:20.480 Ralf Koller: Okay. 239 00:28:20.650 --> 00:28:28.729 Benji Fisher: Emma, in the chat basically agrees with me, but simplify things not to have the jump to functionality. 240 00:28:28.870 --> 00:28:30.240 Benji Fisher: Go ahead, Thomas. 241 00:28:31.360 --> 00:28:47.869 Thomas Howell: I also agree. That I would get rid of the Goto items found. I worry that it's not a standard pattern for a lot of people. The language like. Then you're really stuck trying to figure out how to make that language right. And 242 00:28:47.870 --> 00:29:16.979 Thomas Howell: I think how Ralph very succinctly described what I was trying to say, it. This all fits together. So I agree with you, Benji. I think that should go away, and we can move that into this. That'd be one possible fix. Though I really not fond of it. But it's all part of how to move through the page, which is different than the issue of filtering it so. Yes, I would get rid of it. 243 00:29:16.980 --> 00:29:20.549 Thomas Howell: But I think having a follow up issue is how we can 244 00:29:20.800 --> 00:29:22.470 comfortably 245 00:29:22.590 --> 00:29:26.759 Thomas Howell: get rid of this because we don't have enough information. As Ralph said. 246 00:29:27.070 --> 00:29:30.129 Benji Fisher: okay, so yeah. So I think we have consensus there for 247 00:29:30.170 --> 00:29:33.290 Benji Fisher: for now get rid of it. Consider 248 00:29:33.620 --> 00:29:35.410 Benji Fisher: doing it in a follow-up issue. 249 00:29:36.070 --> 00:29:37.230 Ralf Koller: Well. 250 00:29:38.620 --> 00:29:44.030 Ralf Koller: one last question. In regards of the 251 00:29:45.240 --> 00:29:48.050 Ralf Koller: suggested modification 252 00:29:48.130 --> 00:29:49.610 Ralf Koller: in that mockup 253 00:29:49.890 --> 00:29:52.560 Ralf Koller: What 254 00:29:52.770 --> 00:30:03.020 Ralf Koller: are your thoughts about that. because I think you tend in a slightly different direction up Benji. 255 00:30:04.860 --> 00:30:11.279 Benji Fisher: Yeah, and and again, I don't feel strongly about that. It was just a suggestion, but 256 00:30:11.730 --> 00:30:16.899 Benji Fisher: It would use less vertical space, which is sort of the goal here. 257 00:30:17.100 --> 00:30:23.030 Benji Fisher: If we hid the note blocks message 258 00:30:24.090 --> 00:30:28.360 Benji Fisher: and put the 3 blocks filtered. 0 blocks filtered 259 00:30:28.650 --> 00:30:31.670 Benji Fisher: on the same line as the region name 260 00:30:32.150 --> 00:30:33.299 Benji Fisher: and the buttons. 261 00:30:41.210 --> 00:30:45.860 Benji Fisher: I'm getting a thumbs up from Thomas. On on my suggestion. I assume 262 00:30:45.980 --> 00:30:47.410 Benji Fisher: other opinions. 263 00:30:48.280 --> 00:30:54.269 Simo Hellsten: I think, information about filtered out or hidden books. 264 00:30:54.660 --> 00:31:02.720 Simo Hellsten: It would be good to have that information in the place where user Christ do see the blocks. 265 00:31:03.940 --> 00:31:12.840 Simo Hellsten: So if the information is in a different place. then it's kind of might be a little bit confusing, probably not too much, but 266 00:31:13.450 --> 00:31:21.029 Simo Hellsten: but in a way. the information about something being hidden. It would make sense to have that information 267 00:31:21.160 --> 00:31:25.949 Simo Hellsten: presented in the same place where the items would be, they wouldn't be here. 268 00:31:28.420 --> 00:31:30.490 Benji Fisher: That's a good point, Thomas. 269 00:31:31.330 --> 00:31:42.359 Thomas Howell: But how does this work in other modes of accessibility? so when they're split into 270 00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:44.549 Thomas Howell: at least 271 00:31:45.730 --> 00:31:51.809 Thomas Howell: visually looking at this, they're split into equal looking rows. 272 00:31:52.080 --> 00:31:52.780 Thomas Howell: and 273 00:31:53.010 --> 00:32:07.500 Thomas Howell: those rows are not very distinguishable to me like it doesn't. I would not naturally think that the no blocks in this region that doesn't look like a region to me. And I'm curious how that is for a screen reader, or other forms of accessibility. 274 00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:13.980 Thomas Howell: It just ends up looking like a blur, or very noisy to me. 275 00:32:15.490 --> 00:32:23.470 Thomas Howell: What Benji's suggesting. You can tie the information no blocks. You can say sidebar, no blocks in this region 276 00:32:24.320 --> 00:32:32.130 Thomas Howell: that to me has direct linkage, whereas this feels fuzzier. 277 00:32:37.050 --> 00:32:40.419 Benji Fisher: you think just putting the message where it is, and and 278 00:32:40.740 --> 00:32:48.920 Benji Fisher: Ralph's current example. you think putting it there makes it less queer than putting it on the same line a sidebar. 279 00:32:49.070 --> 00:32:56.749 Thomas Howell: If for me. It does. I'm not seeing. So when I look at a list where all rows look equal. 280 00:32:57.070 --> 00:33:22.329 Thomas Howell: My first thought is not that it is the name of a region than a region than the blocks that go in a region or a space that represents the blocks that go in that region. There's no divider visually to indicate that you've got these things. And if a screen readers going through it's going to it may read it sidebar place block 281 00:33:22.330 --> 00:33:33.790 Thomas Howell: than no blocks in this region, and I'd have to hear how that works. And I'm not an expert in that. But I'm just curious if that works well when you're trying to 282 00:33:33.890 --> 00:33:51.699 Thomas Howell: communicate that the sidebar is empty, the content below is empty because it's been filtered, and there's a difference between the sidebar, having no blocks ever and content below having 3 blocks. But you currently do not have access to them in the filter. 283 00:33:52.630 --> 00:33:56.380 Yeah. And so just looking at this to me. 284 00:33:56.880 --> 00:33:59.370 Thomas Howell: it it doesn't work very well for me. 285 00:34:01.400 --> 00:34:06.320 Benji Fisher: Okay, does anyone know how this is going to be for screen reader? Ralph, if you tried it out. 286 00:34:07.490 --> 00:34:13.270 Ralf Koller: not in field, but but I could do after the meeting and create a screen 287 00:34:13.590 --> 00:34:16.540 Ralf Koller: small screencast and post it on the channel. 288 00:34:17.239 --> 00:34:18.010 Thanks. 289 00:34:20.570 --> 00:34:24.350 Benji Fisher: So I'm not sure we have any consensus here. 290 00:34:24.920 --> 00:34:30.450 Benji Fisher: And as I said, I didn't feel strongly about it. 291 00:34:31.050 --> 00:34:32.690 Benji Fisher: so maybe we can just 292 00:34:32.730 --> 00:34:35.110 Benji Fisher: leave it as a suggestion. Go ahead, Ralph. 293 00:34:35.260 --> 00:34:40.759 Ralf Koller: Just one idea. But I'm not sure from a technical 294 00:34:41.230 --> 00:34:48.610 Ralf Koller: standpoint, if it's possible. But if you make the layout for sighted people that way. 295 00:34:48.630 --> 00:35:01.489 Ralf Koller: But if the announcement would be sidebar, and then this automatic description, like sidebar, no blocks in this region, and then place, block and content below. 3 blocks filtered in this region, and then place block and show filtered 296 00:35:01.540 --> 00:35:05.290 Ralf Koller: that way. For screen, reader users, it would work 297 00:35:05.530 --> 00:35:16.270 Ralf Koller: would be slightly a different order. but it would be automatically announced that way. But or yet, for example, in descriptions or fields. 298 00:35:17.780 --> 00:35:23.549 Ralf Koller: but I'm not sure if it's possible for I'm not. I'm also not sure what element it is 299 00:35:26.610 --> 00:35:28.010 Ralf Koller: it is. 300 00:35:33.470 --> 00:35:38.080 Ralf Koller: Anyway, I take a look after what's let's move on to the next issue. I think. 301 00:35:38.140 --> 00:35:39.629 Benji Fisher: yeah. So I think 302 00:35:41.160 --> 00:35:46.850 Benji Fisher: to summarize this, the advantage of putting it all on one line. 303 00:35:47.210 --> 00:35:55.870 Benji Fisher: And and I do like the idea of putting it before the place block button. The advantage of putting it on one line is that it makes the scrolling less of a problem. 304 00:35:56.240 --> 00:36:01.070 Benji Fisher: and the disadvantage, as Simmo points out, is that people are looking for the blocks 305 00:36:01.330 --> 00:36:03.960 Benji Fisher: on a separate line, and that's 306 00:36:04.310 --> 00:36:07.709 Benji Fisher: perhaps the best place to put the message that they've been filtered out 307 00:36:12.260 --> 00:36:13.760 Benji Fisher: so ready for the next point. 308 00:36:14.320 --> 00:36:15.509 Ralf Koller: Yep, I stop. 309 00:36:15.900 --> 00:36:19.189 Benji Fisher: Ralph, could you? Oh. 310 00:36:19.240 --> 00:36:23.169 Ralf Koller: oh, oh, oh, sorry! I was so eager! 311 00:36:23.960 --> 00:36:25.000 Ralf Koller: What should I do 312 00:36:25.090 --> 00:36:29.490 Benji Fisher: alright, I'll I'll I'll go ahead and share my screen. 313 00:36:31.060 --> 00:36:32.220 just a second. 314 00:36:36.140 --> 00:36:37.000 Here we go. 315 00:36:41.210 --> 00:36:42.720 Benji Fisher: I was going to 316 00:36:42.820 --> 00:36:46.379 Benji Fisher: ask that you open this because I am sharing 317 00:36:46.480 --> 00:36:48.940 Benji Fisher: with with Ngrock and Ddf share. 318 00:36:49.030 --> 00:36:50.089 so you could have 319 00:36:50.380 --> 00:36:52.760 Ralf Koller: this yourself. I put the link in the 320 00:36:52.890 --> 00:36:55.460 Benji Fisher: zoom chat. But 321 00:36:57.420 --> 00:36:58.889 Benji Fisher: yeah, here's the 322 00:37:00.730 --> 00:37:03.130 Benji Fisher: Content Page, showing all the content 323 00:37:03.150 --> 00:37:05.550 Benji Fisher: on an umami site by default. 324 00:37:06.090 --> 00:37:19.030 Benji Fisher: and as soon as you select one or more node, you get this little form at the bottom. 325 00:37:19.670 --> 00:37:28.930 Benji Fisher: Which lets you select an action such as delete delete is still the first option on that list. We should have fixed that we talked about that years ago. 326 00:37:29.300 --> 00:37:31.269 Benji Fisher: and then the Submit button. 327 00:37:31.380 --> 00:37:36.089 Benji Fisher: and I think that a similar pattern, but but maybe at the top of the screen 328 00:37:37.030 --> 00:37:39.540 Benji Fisher: is my preference for 329 00:37:40.220 --> 00:37:47.449 Benji Fisher: dealing with the the block layout rather than having all of those links going to the top. I think it'll be less clutter. 330 00:37:49.900 --> 00:37:54.410 Benji Fisher: and it might 331 00:37:55.480 --> 00:37:58.219 Benji Fisher: the it might help with 332 00:37:58.850 --> 00:38:00.540 Benji Fisher: clearing the filter 333 00:38:01.830 --> 00:38:04.600 Benji Fisher: and and then scrolling to the right place. 334 00:38:05.430 --> 00:38:10.450 Benji Fisher: so 335 00:38:11.630 --> 00:38:17.789 Benji Fisher: can we get some quick reactions as to whether you like that idea rather than the 336 00:38:18.350 --> 00:38:20.409 Benji Fisher: go to the filter link 337 00:38:20.550 --> 00:38:21.970 Benji Fisher: that Ralph was showing. 338 00:38:25.790 --> 00:38:27.800 Benji Fisher: Get a thumbs up from Semo 339 00:38:29.730 --> 00:38:31.099 Benji Fisher: and from Emma. 340 00:38:34.970 --> 00:38:39.460 Benji Fisher: and I think it's probably more convenient. 341 00:38:41.160 --> 00:38:52.330 Benji Fisher: a more convenient solution. It's less clutter. and it is consistent with what we have on the content page. So I feel pretty strongly. That's that's a better solution. 342 00:38:54.360 --> 00:38:58.480 Benji Fisher: And the last point, do do you agree that hidden is better than filtered 343 00:39:03.380 --> 00:39:07.010 Benji Fisher: thumbs up from Thomas and Seemo 344 00:39:10.160 --> 00:39:11.400 and from Emma. 345 00:39:11.610 --> 00:39:14.760 Benji Fisher: Okay. So so we have a lot of consensus. And 346 00:39:16.770 --> 00:39:19.580 Benji Fisher: and I guess there, there's still some question about 347 00:39:20.800 --> 00:39:22.029 Benji Fisher: whether to put it 348 00:39:22.460 --> 00:39:24.869 Benji Fisher: on the same line or or a separate line. 349 00:39:25.050 --> 00:39:26.200 Benji Fisher: That's 350 00:39:26.670 --> 00:39:29.210 Benji Fisher: and that I didn't feel strongly about that. 351 00:39:31.240 --> 00:39:39.790 Benji Fisher: okay, so we're about halfway through the hour. There's another issue 352 00:39:40.560 --> 00:39:42.880 Benji Fisher: that was suggested 353 00:39:43.970 --> 00:39:45.109 Benji Fisher: scroll to the top. 354 00:39:45.850 --> 00:39:48.239 Benji Fisher: And this is issue 2, 5, one. 355 00:39:48.260 --> 00:39:50.100 Benji Fisher: 9, 3, 6, 2 356 00:39:50.950 --> 00:39:55.260 Benji Fisher: redesign. The menu link ad form to be less overwhelming. 357 00:39:56.600 --> 00:39:58.070 Benji Fisher: And 358 00:39:58.730 --> 00:40:04.910 Benji Fisher: I did just share a few minutes ago in the Zoom chat a link to 359 00:40:05.520 --> 00:40:09.730 Benji Fisher: my test drupal site. It is the Umami demo 360 00:40:09.980 --> 00:40:14.430 Benji Fisher: with the the merge request for this issue applied. 361 00:40:16.210 --> 00:40:17.939 Benji Fisher: and maybe 362 00:40:20.080 --> 00:40:24.170 Benji Fisher: and start with this screenshot. So this is the 363 00:40:25.120 --> 00:40:26.859 Benji Fisher: Add menu link form. 364 00:40:27.880 --> 00:40:34.270 Benji Fisher: When this issue was first created, it was suggested that the the title and the link and the parent 365 00:40:34.530 --> 00:40:37.559 Benji Fisher: are the most important elements of that, and I think 366 00:40:37.930 --> 00:40:39.220 Benji Fisher: I agree with that. 367 00:40:39.670 --> 00:40:42.950 Benji Fisher: and 368 00:40:43.500 --> 00:40:47.949 Benji Fisher: we should use the same pattern that we use on the 369 00:40:48.680 --> 00:40:52.019 Benji Fisher: on the node edit form 370 00:40:52.490 --> 00:40:56.160 Benji Fisher: to put the less important things in the sidebar. 371 00:40:56.730 --> 00:41:01.840 Benji Fisher: So here's a tab that I 372 00:41:02.450 --> 00:41:05.240 Benji Fisher: where I loaded the the menu link form 373 00:41:05.720 --> 00:41:13.320 Benji Fisher: before applying the the merge request. So if I were to reload this page it would look different. 374 00:41:14.110 --> 00:41:20.810 Benji Fisher: And that's pretty much what we saw in the screenshot. It might be slightly different. I'm not sure. 375 00:41:21.310 --> 00:41:25.430 Benji Fisher: Yeah, that looks like the 7 theme. And this is with Claro. 376 00:41:28.230 --> 00:41:29.700 Benji Fisher: and 377 00:41:29.960 --> 00:41:32.050 Benji Fisher: and maybe I should 378 00:41:33.840 --> 00:41:41.369 Benji Fisher: go to admin structure menus and then say. the footer menu 379 00:41:42.600 --> 00:41:44.180 Benji Fisher: and add link. 380 00:41:44.360 --> 00:41:49.720 Benji Fisher: That's the normal way to navigate to this, and this is what it looks like with emerge request 381 00:41:50.630 --> 00:41:54.680 Benji Fisher: applied. So you have the title and the link and the parent link. 382 00:41:55.250 --> 00:41:57.580 Benji Fisher: Those are 383 00:41:57.760 --> 00:42:06.880 Benji Fisher: 3 that were identified as the important elements. And then off in the sidebar you have the enabled check box. The show is expanded to 384 00:42:06.890 --> 00:42:07.940 Benji Fisher: text. Box 385 00:42:08.250 --> 00:42:11.040 Benji Fisher: the description and the weight. 386 00:42:13.500 --> 00:42:22.259 Benji Fisher: so so first. do you understand the issue? Any questions about 387 00:42:22.350 --> 00:42:25.870 Benji Fisher: what it's about? And the proposed solution. 388 00:42:25.930 --> 00:42:29.690 Benji Fisher: Thomas is already giving a thumbs up, not asking the question. 389 00:42:35.560 --> 00:42:41.130 Benji Fisher: Any 390 00:42:41.400 --> 00:42:48.529 Benji Fisher: disagreements about which are the important elements, and which should be put off in the sidebar. Go ahead. Ralph's 391 00:42:50.560 --> 00:43:09.769 Ralf Koller: I have only once light worry. For example, with you have in the sidebar the enabled checkbox, and through the proximity with the description field. If you don't actually read the description for enabled, then you think 392 00:43:09.990 --> 00:43:12.570 Ralf Koller: at least my association was always 393 00:43:12.680 --> 00:43:16.089 Ralf Koller: is the description enabled or not enabled, and 394 00:43:17.260 --> 00:43:25.359 Ralf Koller: that way it it's feasible, distracting in in, in, in the, in the issue summary, also, the 395 00:43:26.270 --> 00:43:38.870 Ralf Koller: The planned resolution is also to have first enabled checkbox, and then the show is expanded, and then description, and then the wait that way, that confusion might be tackled. 396 00:43:38.940 --> 00:43:52.339 Ralf Koller: But, on the other hand. If you compare it, for example, to a content note, there is F, the published checkbox. With this, basically also in on the on the left, in the main content area, and 397 00:43:53.070 --> 00:43:56.810 Ralf Koller: it's more or less similar. published and enabled 398 00:43:56.980 --> 00:44:02.960 Ralf Koller: function wise. So maybe it might be an idea to move enabled over 399 00:44:05.590 --> 00:44:08.050 Ralf Koller: and on a side note 400 00:44:12.290 --> 00:44:19.869 Ralf Koller: you have. If you could quickly narrow down the viewport with. 401 00:44:21.170 --> 00:44:24.219 Benji Fisher: Okay, I'm just. I'm I'm looking at an 402 00:44:24.800 --> 00:44:26.280 Benji Fisher: A note form. 403 00:44:26.330 --> 00:44:34.810 Benji Fisher: and I guess Umami has content, moderation enabled, and that's why we don't see the published. Instead, we have, 404 00:44:36.080 --> 00:44:38.569 Benji Fisher: content moderation, drop-down list 405 00:44:39.160 --> 00:44:47.189 Benji Fisher: and then going back to this. You wanted me to 406 00:44:47.400 --> 00:44:49.100 Ralf Koller: to make it mobile. First. 407 00:44:53.890 --> 00:45:06.730 Ralf Koller: like, so yeah. And if you scroll down now, you have first the main content in the save button, and then the sidebar, and ideally, the save button should be at the end from my perspective. 408 00:45:07.330 --> 00:45:09.890 Benji Fisher: That is what happens on the 409 00:45:10.540 --> 00:45:12.719 Benji Fisher: node form when we do that. 410 00:45:22.570 --> 00:45:26.970 Benji Fisher: Okay, the note form works that way. That's that's an excellent point. Thank you. 411 00:45:27.940 --> 00:45:29.360 Ralf Koller: And also. 412 00:45:29.410 --> 00:45:38.009 Ralf Koller: if you go the other way around, it's bit difficult on a video call. But if you're on a wide screen on, for example, yeah, 30 413 00:45:38.280 --> 00:45:42.860 Ralf Koller: past 30 inches, then the sidebar is 414 00:45:43.150 --> 00:45:44.490 Ralf Koller: right aligned 415 00:45:44.840 --> 00:45:48.979 Ralf Koller: to the screen and the main 416 00:45:49.650 --> 00:45:55.130 Ralf Koller: content area is more or less slightly centered 417 00:45:55.290 --> 00:46:03.160 Ralf Koller: to the remaining space, slightly to the left. That way you have. Quite the large jump between the main area and the sidebar. So 418 00:46:03.390 --> 00:46:07.840 Ralf Koller: in case you want to jump in between manual link, title and 419 00:46:07.960 --> 00:46:13.540 Ralf Koller: description, or whatever else it's also challenging visually. 420 00:46:13.980 --> 00:46:16.539 Benji Fisher: Okay, I think that I can just 421 00:46:16.900 --> 00:46:20.350 Benji Fisher: reduce the font size and simulate that right? 422 00:46:21.320 --> 00:46:22.040 Ralf Koller: Yep. 423 00:46:22.390 --> 00:46:26.140 Benji Fisher: So here we have this huge gap between them 424 00:46:27.250 --> 00:46:30.900 Benji Fisher: on a very wide screen or very small font. 425 00:46:31.220 --> 00:46:34.260 Benji Fisher: And what happens on the node edit form 426 00:46:37.460 --> 00:46:40.670 Benji Fisher: same thing. Good thing. So 427 00:46:40.920 --> 00:46:43.949 Benji Fisher: I would consider that valid 428 00:46:44.700 --> 00:46:47.060 Benji Fisher: point for a follow-up issue. Yes. 429 00:46:49.910 --> 00:46:53.630 Benji Fisher: anything else, Ralph. 430 00:46:54.680 --> 00:47:02.660 Ralf Koller: Only one other slide minor detail is the question, why is the weight value of 431 00:47:04.390 --> 00:47:10.890 Ralf Koller: available in the sidebar? For example, if on the if you go to the menu link. 432 00:47:10.920 --> 00:47:13.600 Ralf Koller: list page for the menu. 433 00:47:18.570 --> 00:47:19.250 Benji Fisher: So 434 00:47:20.060 --> 00:47:25.729 Ralf Koller: now to the, to the overview, to the list of menu items. For, for example, the footer menu. 435 00:47:26.460 --> 00:47:29.879 Benji Fisher: That's where I am. Menu has just one item in it. 436 00:47:30.030 --> 00:47:33.620 Ralf Koller: Okay? Because basically, at the moment 437 00:47:33.670 --> 00:47:46.230 Ralf Koller: everything is set to the track handles and show row weights is hidden. So basically, if if someone who is hidden, the row weights comes to the menu item, you have no basically context 438 00:47:46.350 --> 00:47:53.430 Ralf Koller: setting, the weight is more or less unnecessary. So I'm not sure. 439 00:47:53.690 --> 00:47:57.759 Benji Fisher: potentially confusing. So I'm going to call that out of scope. 440 00:47:58.930 --> 00:48:03.669 Benji Fisher: It's a separate issue. You can, and show the row weights on on this form 441 00:48:04.110 --> 00:48:06.449 Benji Fisher: by default. Of course they're hidden. 442 00:48:07.110 --> 00:48:09.249 Benji Fisher: But here. 443 00:48:10.220 --> 00:48:16.500 Benji Fisher: the existing form has a weight. and frankly, I don't know how else you would manage it. 444 00:48:17.230 --> 00:48:20.530 Ralf Koller: so I'm going to call that out of scope. 445 00:48:21.870 --> 00:48:24.889 Benji Fisher: Anything else, Ralph. 446 00:48:25.600 --> 00:48:29.719 Ralf Koller: Oh, no, Thomas, go ahead. Sorry. Okay, yeah, Thomas. 447 00:48:30.670 --> 00:48:40.599 Thomas Howell: Ii don't know how pertinent this is, but if you could look at the the merge requested. So that the updated version of this 448 00:48:42.350 --> 00:48:44.079 Thomas Howell: add Menu, link page. 449 00:48:46.830 --> 00:49:10.450 Thomas Howell: The way I tend to think of things that are pushed off to the site is not that they are always used less frequently, but it is metadata about the primary thing that you're working on, and I'm not sure I love the description field, which is something that can typically be pretty long, being off in that area. 450 00:49:10.450 --> 00:49:19.990 Thomas Howell: And personally, I would if I were going to put the parent link over there. It would make more sense as metadata about the menu link, title, link, and description. 451 00:49:19.990 --> 00:49:42.339 Thomas Howell: And that's but II understand what the intent of this issue is so I guess in my perfect world I would move description under parent link and leave everything else the same. But I'm not fond of putting description off into the right cause at that point, then it just almost begs the question, why have a description? If it's being treated as not only optional. 452 00:49:42.340 --> 00:49:45.219 Thomas Howell: but it's not being given a lot of space to be written. 453 00:49:46.870 --> 00:49:55.380 Benji Fisher: Funny if we take Ralph's suggestion that enabled should be in the main region, and your suggestion suggestion that the description be in the main region. 454 00:49:55.630 --> 00:49:58.790 Benji Fisher: Then we're we're only moving 2 elements to this type bar 455 00:49:59.600 --> 00:50:23.510 Thomas Howell: right? And and honestly, I would have swapped parent link to the top. Then I would have had enabled show enabled, and wait with description under menu, link, title and link. Because both parent link and description are optional. But parent Link describes a relationship, whereas description is actual text, and that's why I would have organized it that way, but I'm fine like 456 00:50:23.510 --> 00:50:32.310 Thomas Howell: the my, I would definitely have enabled and show as expanded in the right their metadata about the object. 457 00:50:32.360 --> 00:50:37.630 Thomas Howell: but descriptions, not really metadata to me, that's actually part and parcel to the object. 458 00:50:37.690 --> 00:50:42.569 Benji Fisher: Okay? So I think your your main point is that you consider the 459 00:50:43.090 --> 00:50:48.319 Benji Fisher: organization that the organization of the form should be based on data and metadata 460 00:50:48.330 --> 00:50:52.030 Benji Fisher: rather than frequently used and less frequently used. 461 00:50:52.680 --> 00:51:04.100 Thomas Howell: more or less. But I think that the frequently used needs to be at the top the way it is, etc., etc. And again, parent link is only used frequently. If you've got a hierarchical menu. 462 00:51:04.360 --> 00:51:19.339 Thomas Howell: So there's going to be sites where parent link is as infrequently used as anything else. Link and menu link title are absolutely required, and so those belong where they are in that order. So that's my thinking. 463 00:51:20.980 --> 00:51:27.309 Benji Fisher: So if we were to put the parent link at the top of the sidebar it would still be 464 00:51:27.450 --> 00:51:29.050 Benji Fisher: readily accessible. 465 00:51:29.670 --> 00:51:30.930 Benji Fisher: and it would be. 466 00:51:31.050 --> 00:51:34.060 Benji Fisher: you know, consider the the the most important 467 00:51:34.380 --> 00:51:37.239 Benji Fisher: part of metadata most frequently used 468 00:51:37.260 --> 00:51:38.450 Benji Fisher: of the metadata 469 00:51:39.540 --> 00:51:44.089 Thomas Howell: correct, and would make the best use of the way the screen is laid out. 470 00:51:44.690 --> 00:51:51.940 Benji Fisher: Another point. Let me remind you. Let me edit rather than 471 00:51:52.480 --> 00:51:57.570 Benji Fisher: Oh, hey! 472 00:51:58.630 --> 00:52:01.680 Benji Fisher: I guess this this link is not. 473 00:52:02.090 --> 00:52:08.950 Benji Fisher: This link is provided by the contact module, so II don't have the same options. I can't put a description on it, which is what I wanted to do. 474 00:52:09.770 --> 00:52:17.010 Benji Fisher: let me just for kicks, added child menus, since that was fixed recently. 475 00:52:18.520 --> 00:52:19.670 Benji Fisher: test 476 00:52:22.480 --> 00:52:23.190 link. 477 00:52:27.660 --> 00:52:34.890 Benji Fisher: add and let me put 478 00:52:35.300 --> 00:52:36.350 Benji Fisher: test 479 00:52:36.710 --> 00:52:39.310 Benji Fisher: description. 480 00:52:40.430 --> 00:52:51.229 Benji Fisher: save that. And the the only point I want to make is where the description shows up. Does that show up in the zoom window? 481 00:52:51.970 --> 00:52:52.700 Ralf Koller: No. 482 00:52:52.900 --> 00:52:57.609 Benji Fisher: it's it's it's hover text. So II see it pretty clearly. But I guess it. 483 00:52:57.630 --> 00:53:00.670 Benji Fisher: It doesn't show up. It's the the title attribute 484 00:53:01.200 --> 00:53:08.270 Benji Fisher: which I guess I could. seeing the browser window. 485 00:53:12.230 --> 00:53:15.439 Benji Fisher: here's the title attribute is test description. 486 00:53:16.810 --> 00:53:24.570 Benji Fisher: I believe that title attributes on links are generally discouraged. This 487 00:53:24.630 --> 00:53:27.819 Benji Fisher: for for accessibility reasons am I remembering correctly. 488 00:53:29.600 --> 00:53:31.579 Benji Fisher: and when I see that Emma had to drop. 489 00:53:34.420 --> 00:53:48.270 Aaron McHale: II know they are on images. I don't remember about links, but I I think if you're using a link with an image, you definitely shouldn't. But I think I think like for links that I don't remember the being a strong like objection to using them. 490 00:53:49.070 --> 00:53:52.710 Benji Fisher: Okay, I got a thumbs up from Semo. So I think that means 491 00:53:53.000 --> 00:53:59.159 Benji Fisher: he agrees with me. But anyway, if it is discouraged, then you know all the more reason to 492 00:53:59.520 --> 00:54:01.080 Benji Fisher: put it off to the side. 493 00:54:03.680 --> 00:54:07.470 Benji Fisher: Any other comments on this? 494 00:54:13.220 --> 00:54:16.909 Benji Fisher: So in in my initial look at it, I 495 00:54:17.000 --> 00:54:30.710 Benji Fisher: also thought that the 2 check boxes should go together. I didn't especially think that the enabled looked like it was connected with description. 496 00:54:31.170 --> 00:54:33.050 Benji Fisher: but I just think it. 497 00:54:34.200 --> 00:54:35.969 Benji Fisher: It makes more sense to 498 00:54:36.630 --> 00:54:41.739 Benji Fisher: to group the check boxes rather than have checkbox text fields. Check box 499 00:54:42.700 --> 00:54:44.220 Benji Fisher: on number field. 500 00:54:44.700 --> 00:54:51.959 Benji Fisher: I also want to put out one in in consistency with the existing node form 501 00:54:52.510 --> 00:54:54.040 Benji Fisher: is that 502 00:54:54.960 --> 00:54:57.019 Benji Fisher: other than the log message. 503 00:54:57.110 --> 00:54:59.479 Benji Fisher: which is kind of prominent? 504 00:54:59.760 --> 00:55:03.190 Benji Fisher: Every other thing is put inside a details element. 505 00:55:04.020 --> 00:55:04.770 and 506 00:55:05.880 --> 00:55:10.099 Benji Fisher: you know, maybe we don't have to do that for the menu link. Some of these are 507 00:55:10.970 --> 00:55:17.650 Benji Fisher: rather large when they're fully expanded. that one's not so bad. 508 00:55:17.860 --> 00:55:21.860 Benji Fisher: The authoring information has 3 subfields. 509 00:55:22.280 --> 00:55:25.990 Benji Fisher: and then there are 2 check boxes 510 00:55:26.430 --> 00:55:28.079 Benji Fisher: in this details element. 511 00:55:28.120 --> 00:55:32.240 Benji Fisher: So we don't have to be consistent. But it's it's worth at least considering 512 00:55:32.600 --> 00:55:36.360 Benji Fisher: that maybe, since they're less important. 513 00:55:36.630 --> 00:55:44.239 Benji Fisher: they should be hidden in details. Elements. and that would certainly make it more consistent 514 00:55:44.390 --> 00:55:47.570 Benji Fisher: with the node edit form 515 00:55:47.810 --> 00:55:52.420 Benji Fisher: apps. If we rearrange things. As Thomas suggested. 516 00:55:53.270 --> 00:55:59.230 Benji Fisher: the parent link was put at the top. We could not put that in 517 00:55:59.500 --> 00:56:02.760 Benji Fisher: a details element, because it's most commonly used. 518 00:56:02.910 --> 00:56:09.950 Benji Fisher: But but the other things we might group and and details elements. 519 00:56:10.550 --> 00:56:13.189 Benji Fisher: So, Thomas, even patient, go ahead. 520 00:56:13.940 --> 00:56:26.579 Thomas Howell: I agree. 100% with everything you just said. I like it. Because something that's missing for me from the metadata is I like context around metadata 521 00:56:26.580 --> 00:56:48.019 Thomas Howell: and having those detail elements allow you to group, for example, the the check boxes. And, more importantly, if descriptions are discouraged, and this is an assumption based upon what's been discussed thus far, then we really shouldn't make it so prominent that people think they should put in a description because, 522 00:56:48.030 --> 00:56:49.980 Thomas Howell: I know 523 00:56:50.260 --> 00:57:17.840 Thomas Howell: as a self taught user of drupal. I don't necessarily know what the best practices when to use things, and a detail element hiding, it would mean that I'd be a lot less prone to using it at all, and it would be available for people who want it for their site design. But it would hide it from everyone else who really shouldn't be using it if it is frowned upon, and I understand that 524 00:57:17.840 --> 00:57:43.460 Thomas Howell: at least in the instance of images, as Aaron mentioned, it is frowned upon. So maybe this is something that's a gray area where opinions aren't strong. But if in general usage descriptions not adding a lot of value, retaining it for those who use it, but making it less visible, would make the page less busy and easier to focus on things like the parent link, menu, link and link 525 00:57:43.630 --> 00:57:45.379 Thomas Howell: a manual link title in link. 526 00:57:47.480 --> 00:57:48.210 Okay? 527 00:57:49.190 --> 00:57:52.360 Benji Fisher: yeah. 528 00:57:52.580 --> 00:57:53.450 Benji Fisher: I 529 00:57:53.740 --> 00:57:57.710 Benji Fisher: make a good point about the clutter. And that's with with this 530 00:57:57.780 --> 00:58:01.919 Benji Fisher: rather long description text or help text. 531 00:58:03.900 --> 00:58:07.359 Benji Fisher: imagine hiding that inside a details element it would 532 00:58:07.690 --> 00:58:11.220 Benji Fisher: really dramatically to decrease the clutter, the visual clutter 533 00:58:11.320 --> 00:58:12.480 on the page. 534 00:58:12.520 --> 00:58:13.669 Benji Fisher: Go ahead, Ralph. 535 00:58:18.790 --> 00:58:27.630 Ralf Koller: Yeah, I'd be also good. Yeah, no, thank you. It might be also a good recommendation, maybe to create a follow up for 536 00:58:27.780 --> 00:58:36.950 Ralf Koller: revising the microcopy, or, for example, descriptions in particular. Some are a bit lengthy and some a bit unclear. 537 00:58:37.240 --> 00:58:40.969 Ralf Koller: so move that to follow up might be also an idea. 538 00:58:41.300 --> 00:58:45.750 Benji Fisher: Yeah, I agree that that would be a good idea. And and it should be a follow up. 539 00:58:47.070 --> 00:58:56.769 Benji Fisher: Okay. So we have less than 10 min left. Let's see whether we have consensus on the recommendations. So I guess the 540 00:58:57.230 --> 00:59:02.639 Benji Fisher: biggest suggested change is Thomas's idea 541 00:59:02.910 --> 00:59:13.669 Benji Fisher: that the organizing principle should be data and metadata rather than frequently used and less frequently used. And let's just have a quick look at the 542 00:59:14.080 --> 00:59:16.289 Benji Fisher: the note form again. 543 00:59:16.400 --> 00:59:17.390 Sorry. 544 00:59:18.440 --> 00:59:25.659 Benji Fisher: title, media, field body 545 00:59:26.520 --> 00:59:27.780 Benji Fisher: language 546 00:59:28.270 --> 00:59:29.000 Benji Fisher: tag 547 00:59:29.460 --> 00:59:30.870 Benji Fisher: in the main column 548 00:59:31.360 --> 00:59:36.989 Benji Fisher: as opposed to provision, log message menu settings. URL, alias 549 00:59:37.160 --> 00:59:39.789 Benji Fisher: authoring information and promotion options. 550 00:59:40.860 --> 00:59:42.700 Benji Fisher: I think that that 551 00:59:43.170 --> 00:59:46.839 Benji Fisher: meta data versus metadata is a pretty good 552 00:59:47.010 --> 00:59:52.320 Benji Fisher: way of describing that distinction. Should we? Should we make the same 553 00:59:52.680 --> 00:59:55.330 Benji Fisher: breakdown on this page 554 00:59:56.840 --> 00:59:58.559 Benji Fisher: thumbs up from Semo. 555 00:59:58.690 --> 01:00:01.640 Benji Fisher: Thomas, I assume you. You agree, Ralph agrees. 556 01:00:01.860 --> 01:00:05.629 Benji Fisher: I don't feel strongly, and Aaron doesn't give an opinion. 557 01:00:06.000 --> 01:00:08.889 Benji Fisher: Okay, so I think we can go with that 558 01:00:09.610 --> 01:00:14.249 Benji Fisher: And then given that we're going to do that. 559 01:00:16.250 --> 01:00:21.599 Benji Fisher: I guess we'll be swapping the enabled check box. And the parent link is that 560 01:00:21.890 --> 01:00:24.419 Benji Fisher: sort of the concrete version of that suggestion. 561 01:00:29.430 --> 01:00:32.350 Benji Fisher: No one's giving any opinions. Yeah, I 562 01:00:34.220 --> 01:00:44.300 Thomas Howell: II I'm mostly happy with the way things are. And even the metadata definition. II do prefer the metadata data 563 01:00:44.710 --> 01:00:50.630 Thomas Howell: dichotomy. I don't know that enabled necessarily counts as 564 01:00:51.100 --> 01:01:05.170 Thomas Howell: data, so I just think the page would be pretty empty if you put everything over to the right but I really wanna make certain that I would most highly prize 565 01:01:05.210 --> 01:01:19.990 Thomas Howell: the details element change that you suggested like for me, that would make this the most usable, hiding the busy text underweight and show expanded alone, or being able to have more information about description. That's 566 01:01:21.300 --> 01:01:24.040 Thomas Howell: even more important than my original suggestion. 567 01:01:25.690 --> 01:01:29.270 Benji Fisher: Okay, but let's let's nail down the recommendation. 568 01:01:29.310 --> 01:01:30.860 Benji Fisher: So you. 569 01:01:31.430 --> 01:01:45.110 Benji Fisher: yeah, I actually II think I agree that the the enabled checkbox and the show is expanded. Checkbox are good candidates to put together in a details element. 570 01:01:48.060 --> 01:01:51.780 Benji Fisher: and and the only argument for putting enabled in the main 571 01:01:51.790 --> 01:01:54.369 Benji Fisher: area is that that would be 572 01:01:54.540 --> 01:01:57.209 Benji Fisher: have some consistency with the node edit form. 573 01:01:57.890 --> 01:02:03.200 Benji Fisher: So I guess, then the 574 01:02:04.450 --> 01:02:05.960 Benji Fisher: recommendation 575 01:02:07.210 --> 01:02:11.570 Benji Fisher: is just to put the parent link at the top of the sidebar expended. 576 01:02:14.750 --> 01:02:16.130 Benji Fisher: and then 577 01:02:18.460 --> 01:02:20.640 Benji Fisher: put the enabled checkbox 578 01:02:21.100 --> 01:02:26.680 Benji Fisher: and the show is expanded. Checkbox in a details element. and then 579 01:02:27.490 --> 01:02:35.489 Benji Fisher: description and weight, each would get their own details element. Thomas agrees with that. Anyone else. 580 01:02:39.180 --> 01:02:40.229 Just one 581 01:02:40.520 --> 01:02:46.340 Ralf Koller: question, a in which details element would apparently go, or should it remain on the main page 582 01:02:46.540 --> 01:02:48.260 Ralf Koller: on the main side? 583 01:02:49.440 --> 01:03:04.789 Benji Fisher: The suggestion is that that counts as metadata very similar to the weight actually, and therefore should be in the sidebar. But since it's the most frequently used, we put it at the top of the sidebar, and not inside a details element. 584 01:03:08.380 --> 01:03:12.210 Benji Fisher: Thomas agrees with that, and I seemo had a thumbs up earlier. 585 01:03:14.650 --> 01:03:20.570 Benji Fisher: And then. 586 01:03:21.730 --> 01:03:24.939 Benji Fisher: as as Ralph pointed out, the 587 01:03:25.090 --> 01:03:32.109 Benji Fisher: Save and delete buttons should be at the bottom of the form when when the screen is narrow. 588 01:03:32.920 --> 01:03:40.340 Benji Fisher: and we should have follow up issue that I'm very wide screens. 589 01:03:40.500 --> 01:03:43.810 Benji Fisher: These 2 regions become very far apart. 590 01:03:45.190 --> 01:03:49.570 Benji Fisher: But that's already a problem with no edit form. So it's 591 01:03:49.710 --> 01:03:51.400 Benji Fisher: not in scope for this issue. 592 01:03:52.440 --> 01:03:56.010 Benji Fisher: Oh, I've 593 01:03:56.050 --> 01:03:59.009 Benji Fisher: failed to pay attention to the chat. 594 01:03:59.110 --> 01:04:03.130 Benji Fisher: Aaron apologizes for being very UN opinionated during this meeting. 595 01:04:04.150 --> 01:04:04.860 Thank you. 596 01:04:06.220 --> 01:04:07.769 Benji Fisher: Yes, I agree. 597 01:04:08.680 --> 01:04:19.479 Benji Fisher: We hope that's not a sign of sickness. Aaron, And Ralph says, if enabled, is paired, is paired with show as expanded. It is also fine with you. Okay, so you. 598 01:04:20.540 --> 01:04:23.629 Benji Fisher: At least don't object 599 01:04:23.820 --> 01:04:28.079 Benji Fisher: to putting these 2 check boxes in a details element. 600 01:04:30.300 --> 01:04:40.519 Benji Fisher: and I guess a couple of reasons for putting the weight in a details element one to decrease, clutter, especially with that long 601 01:04:40.880 --> 01:04:41.910 Benji Fisher: description. 602 01:04:42.070 --> 01:04:46.009 Benji Fisher: Second, because it's a really awkward way 603 01:04:46.370 --> 01:04:55.400 Benji Fisher: to to manage it. People will almost always use the click and drag interface. 604 01:04:55.940 --> 01:04:57.830 Benji Fisher: at least on simple sites. 605 01:04:58.040 --> 01:05:01.200 Benji Fisher: Where are we? How do we get back to 606 01:05:02.460 --> 01:05:07.520 Benji Fisher: But that's one that has a lot of elements and and is hierarchical. 607 01:05:07.770 --> 01:05:11.920 Benji Fisher: people are are most likely to use 608 01:05:12.050 --> 01:05:13.290 Benji Fisher: this page 609 01:05:13.490 --> 01:05:20.839 Benji Fisher: to rearrange things rather than use the edit form for any particular item to set the weight. 610 01:05:21.660 --> 01:05:25.869 Benji Fisher: It's possible. But it's it's much less convenient. 611 01:05:26.180 --> 01:05:30.730 Benji Fisher: Edward. 612 01:05:31.190 --> 01:05:35.380 Benji Fisher: just at time. I think that covers everything. 613 01:05:35.560 --> 01:05:37.230 Benji Fisher: am I forgetting something. 614 01:05:42.050 --> 01:05:48.069 Benji Fisher: Okay, then, well, thanks all for the discussion. I think we have a lot of good recommendations on both of these issues. 615 01:05:48.420 --> 01:05:56.000 Benji Fisher: I will try to update this issue on Menu Link, and I assume, Ralph, you'll 616 01:05:56.390 --> 01:05:58.380 Benji Fisher: post a comment to the 617 01:05:58.890 --> 01:06:01.970 Benji Fisher: filtering block layout, or or would you like me to? 618 01:06:03.290 --> 01:06:04.580 Ralf Koller: I can do that. 619 01:06:04.700 --> 01:06:05.669 Benji Fisher: Great. Thank you. 620 01:06:07.580 --> 01:06:11.239 Benji Fisher: Good, and I'll be back next week. Hope you all can make it 621 01:06:12.450 --> 01:06:13.980 Ralf Koller: a nice weekend. Everyone. 622 01:06:14.090 --> 01:06:18.270 Simo Hellsten: Yeah, everyone. Thank you, Benji.