WEBVTT 77 00:12:17.110 --> 00:12:22.109 Benji Fisher: Welcome. This is the drupal usability meeting for October thirteenth, 2023 78 00:12:22.670 --> 00:12:29.739 Benji Fisher: superstitious people. Bad things are likely to happen on Friday, the thirteenth. But we'll see. 79 00:12:30.130 --> 00:12:37.739 Benji Fisher: I'm Benji Fisher, moderating and also present, are Erin Mchale, who's sharing his screen, and we'll start off the conversation. 80 00:12:38.050 --> 00:12:39.410 Benji Fisher: I'm all go. 81 00:12:39.490 --> 00:12:44.850 Benji Fisher: Ralph Kohler, Semo Helston, and Thomas Howell. Go ahead, Aaron. 82 00:12:46.200 --> 00:12:56.389 Aaron McHale: Thanks. Benji. So this we're looking at is 3, 3, 4, 7, 2, 9, one combine field storage and field instance forms. 83 00:12:57.460 --> 00:13:02.660 Aaron McHale: This issue was actually recently committed. 84 00:13:02.690 --> 00:13:05.050 Aaron McHale: by small town. 85 00:13:05.100 --> 00:13:08.060 Aaron McHale: Yeah, so it was. It was connected. 86 00:13:08.500 --> 00:13:17.499 Aaron McHale: I can, on the seventh of October. So about a week ago this is the first II the issue came up in 87 00:13:17.580 --> 00:13:25.429 Aaron McHale: and they use those channel and slack. And recently. And we just kind of the first time we're talking about it. 88 00:13:25.550 --> 00:13:35.290 Aaron McHale: Basically best way to demonstrate is to just open a screenshot here. So the 89 00:13:35.460 --> 00:14:00.099 Aaron McHale: The issue essentially combines what was previously 2 separate forms. The field configuration form and the field storage configuration form into a single form. And you can see an example. There is. This is a a body field, and there was previously a separate field storage tab here. But now there's a field field set here with the 90 00:14:00.170 --> 00:14:03.930 Aaron McHale: the number of allowed values. On 91 00:14:04.100 --> 00:14:06.349 Aaron McHale: on in here inside this field set. 92 00:14:07.370 --> 00:14:09.090 Aaron McHale: The 93 00:14:09.560 --> 00:14:16.409 Aaron McHale: main. So the main concern I have with this is that 94 00:14:16.510 --> 00:14:19.030 Aaron McHale: these. 95 00:14:20.620 --> 00:14:33.090 Aaron McHale: This thing is inside this field set impact all instances of this field, whereas everything else in this form only affects the 96 00:14:33.290 --> 00:14:39.689 Aaron McHale: like individual instance. So if you, if you have the body field and you reuse it across like 3 content types. 97 00:14:39.810 --> 00:15:00.739 Aaron McHale: If you change, for instance, the allowed text formats that applies, I believe, to the instance of the field whereas if you change, you probably can't once you once it has a value. If you change how many? The the allowed number of values that impacts every instance of the field, and 98 00:15:00.740 --> 00:15:17.689 Aaron McHale: the fact that those 2 so we we generally in these meetings, we recommend that one form doesn't do more than one thing and particularly when it comes to like the impact of those changes. 99 00:15:17.880 --> 00:15:27.069 Aaron McHale: So the fact that we previously had 2 forms which could be yes, could be confusing to some users in terms of what the differences are. I 100 00:15:27.110 --> 00:15:39.540 Aaron McHale: think, actually, that bringing them all into one form makes this problem worse, because now it's less clear, which changes 101 00:15:39.540 --> 00:16:08.259 Aaron McHale: I suppose, impact every field and which changes impact. Just the instance. I guess it's this mitigation is the field set. But II think it's not. It's not ideal, because especially if you're making a change and like, then you go to export the config. Those are, you know, 2 separate config. Object? So yes, that my main concern is just around the fact that we we now have one form that that 102 00:16:08.730 --> 00:16:10.949 Aaron McHale: has fields that are impact. 103 00:16:11.070 --> 00:16:13.920 Aaron McHale: The scope of those changes is different. 104 00:16:13.940 --> 00:16:15.280 Aaron McHale: And 105 00:16:15.940 --> 00:16:18.989 Aaron McHale: so yeah, I'd be keen to hear what other other people think. 106 00:16:22.030 --> 00:16:23.560 Benji Fisher: Go ahead. Ralph. 107 00:16:24.450 --> 00:16:28.980 Ralf Koller: At first. A big plus one to everything, Alan said. 108 00:16:29.400 --> 00:16:36.749 Ralf Koller: And in addition to that. just from a cognitive point of view, that single 109 00:16:37.420 --> 00:16:41.650 Ralf Koller: form is just overwhelming now. And I have issues 110 00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:49.630 Ralf Koller: separating the different concepts basically label health text. All the things that previous were on the edit tab 111 00:16:49.640 --> 00:16:54.000 Ralf Koller: are now interrupted by the field storages also. So 112 00:16:55.520 --> 00:16:57.809 Ralf Koller: to get a sort of 113 00:16:57.840 --> 00:16:59.140 Ralf Koller: coherent 114 00:16:59.790 --> 00:17:07.719 Ralf Koller: flow and structure in my own mental model is challenging that way. So 115 00:17:08.579 --> 00:17:15.350 Ralf Koller: as additional problematic. But yeah. errance points are even more significant. 116 00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:22.190 Aaron McHale: So you find the the farm to be more kind of overwhelming because 117 00:17:22.599 --> 00:17:30.029 Ralf Koller: it's not really structured, because you have just a few field sets, or for on a few fields, a few checkboxes. And it's 118 00:17:30.180 --> 00:17:31.209 Ralf Koller: to get a 119 00:17:31.360 --> 00:17:34.399 Aaron McHale: yeah, some sense into it. It's 120 00:17:35.600 --> 00:17:40.280 Ralf Koller: challenging. And it makes us think so. That's an additional 121 00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:42.780 Ralf Koller: detail on top of yours. 122 00:17:43.350 --> 00:17:55.449 Aaron McHale: right? And we do try to recommend that one like you. You know, one form doesn't do too many things that we we try to say, Okay, don't you know? Don't have a massive form with lots of options on it. So 123 00:18:00.270 --> 00:18:02.429 Benji Fisher: go ahead. Semo. 124 00:18:10.430 --> 00:18:13.290 Benji Fisher: Nemo, you're unmuted. But I don't hear anything from you. 125 00:18:16.310 --> 00:18:17.530 Simo Hellsten: How about now? 126 00:18:17.830 --> 00:18:18.610 Benji Fisher: Yes. 127 00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:23.069 Simo Hellsten: okay, yeah. Having bad connector with the headphones. 128 00:18:23.380 --> 00:18:24.540 So 129 00:18:24.660 --> 00:18:31.420 Simo Hellsten: I'd like to see how this works with form with a field that has preset 130 00:18:31.820 --> 00:18:37.789 Simo Hellsten: list of text options or preset like different kind of preset options. 131 00:18:38.110 --> 00:18:39.929 Simo Hellsten: So that 132 00:18:41.530 --> 00:18:45.750 Simo Hellsten: yes, but like, for instance, if you add some texts 133 00:18:46.330 --> 00:18:48.459 Simo Hellsten: to that are allowed values. 134 00:18:48.500 --> 00:18:51.829 Simo Hellsten: and then when you set 135 00:18:52.260 --> 00:18:54.080 Simo Hellsten: default 136 00:18:54.600 --> 00:19:00.329 Simo Hellsten: default value for the field. So does it. Does it update the list of 137 00:19:00.430 --> 00:19:03.739 Simo Hellsten: default values available. If it's on the same form. 138 00:19:04.430 --> 00:19:13.849 Simo Hellsten: or does it kind of a do you have to save it before you can select a default? So let's say you have a list of cat, dog, horse 139 00:19:14.490 --> 00:19:17.019 Simo Hellsten: as text, and then you add 140 00:19:17.290 --> 00:19:21.549 Simo Hellsten: a call, and then you want to set the call 141 00:19:21.890 --> 00:19:26.749 Simo Hellsten: string a cow text as default. So how would it work with 142 00:19:27.050 --> 00:19:28.270 Simo Hellsten: this form? 143 00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:37.850 Benji Fisher: I've pasted into the Zoom chat a link to a live site where we can test it. And I see that Aaron 144 00:19:38.180 --> 00:19:48.520 Aaron McHale: already. Yeah, this is. I was hoping you were about to. I was hoping that that little, that little bubble next to the chat meant that a slight was there. 145 00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:56.699 Aaron McHale: So yeah, I that's a really good point. I wanna see. Now, what happens when we add. So let's create 146 00:19:57.220 --> 00:20:00.019 Aaron McHale: anyone else can use that link, too. 147 00:20:01.300 --> 00:20:03.270 Aaron McHale: I'm just gonna call it test. 148 00:20:03.590 --> 00:20:04.290 And 149 00:20:05.460 --> 00:20:08.389 Aaron McHale: Marla gave her a slightness probably 150 00:20:08.790 --> 00:20:10.720 Aaron McHale: was text, yeah. 151 00:20:13.570 --> 00:20:17.390 Aaron McHale: okay, so yeah, this takes you to the form. Basically. 152 00:20:17.660 --> 00:20:22.059 Aaron McHale: we have a load values. So if we add, say, cat 153 00:20:23.870 --> 00:20:30.990 Aaron McHale: dog, I do like this, this is an improvement to be fair. This is an improvement over previously. Where it was just a 154 00:20:31.890 --> 00:20:36.069 Aaron McHale: free text field and then set equal value 155 00:20:36.180 --> 00:20:49.019 Aaron McHale: is okay. So it is actually, so that's interesting. Okay? So you can see that. These values have added in it did something behind the scenes so like these are now. So if I had another one. 156 00:20:49.550 --> 00:21:06.770 Aaron McHale: Oh, what's another pet cat, dog, fish, fish, or hamster hamster. Does fish appear? Okay, fish does actually appear here. Let's just save it and see what happens. 157 00:21:06.940 --> 00:21:08.540 Benji Fisher: Experiment, you want it to do. 158 00:21:09.220 --> 00:21:10.510 Yeah. 159 00:21:10.610 --> 00:21:20.049 Simo Hellsten: So because that's change, actually, a lot adding those values because it used to be a kind of a text field where you our text area, where you add those 160 00:21:20.690 --> 00:21:28.389 Simo Hellsten: so allowed values. That's and O, that's also yeah, that's actually quite different from what I'm used to seeing. 161 00:21:28.970 --> 00:21:31.180 Benji Fisher: Okay. So so go ahead 162 00:21:34.180 --> 00:21:39.150 Aaron McHale: to say, yes. So this is like inside the field storage. So if you then change this, does it 163 00:21:40.640 --> 00:21:44.920 Aaron McHale: change? I guess that wouldn't. Hmm. 164 00:21:47.940 --> 00:21:53.940 Aaron McHale: okay. So it is impacting the default selection. So it is updating that 165 00:21:55.120 --> 00:22:00.920 Aaron McHale: what I think we could do is maybe we can probably demonstrate your original 166 00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:14.279 Aaron McHale: concern. I had as well, because if I go so I've added this test field to the basic page content type if I come back to. If I go into article. 167 00:22:15.110 --> 00:22:19.830 Aaron McHale: I can reuse that field. 168 00:22:21.170 --> 00:22:22.740 Aaron McHale: and I can add that 169 00:22:24.280 --> 00:22:25.190 Aaron McHale: so 170 00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:33.689 Aaron McHale: knowing if but so if I add pulp text into this one. 171 00:22:35.850 --> 00:22:36.850 Aaron McHale: don't 172 00:22:38.210 --> 00:22:41.890 Aaron McHale: is a test. I'm going to save that and 173 00:22:43.320 --> 00:22:47.790 Aaron McHale: back to content types and go to basic page. 174 00:22:49.130 --> 00:22:50.840 And I edit test. 175 00:22:51.590 --> 00:23:01.470 Aaron McHale: Yes, that help text was not saved across all instances. So this is kind of the problem I was talking about before, where now we basically have a form that 176 00:23:01.850 --> 00:23:22.710 Aaron McHale: whereas before these were 2 separate forms, so it was really clear you you could have a clear distinction between one of them being the field instance, the other one being like all instances. Whereas now we're in a situation where some of the fields apply to a single instance, and some of the fields apply to across all of the instances which is, is really 177 00:23:22.810 --> 00:23:26.099 Aaron McHale: is really not great. It's really not not a good pattern. 178 00:23:28.040 --> 00:23:30.350 and maybe also something that's 179 00:23:30.910 --> 00:23:37.169 Simo Hellsten: can be. If you rearange, rearrange the options. That's probably also all the 180 00:23:37.790 --> 00:23:40.240 Simo Hellsten: in all all the instances. 181 00:23:40.450 --> 00:23:43.349 Simo Hellsten: Yeah. Like, if I think okay, I'm on. 182 00:23:44.170 --> 00:23:49.449 Aaron McHale: Yeah. And I guess so there's a description here. These settings apply to test field everywhere is used 183 00:23:49.650 --> 00:24:00.129 Aaron McHale: some also impact the way data is stored and kind of be changed once the data is being created. So there is this description. But I'm again, yeah, I'm not sure like how. 184 00:24:01.410 --> 00:24:09.790 Aaron McHale: I don't think that makes it like. as you know, I don't think it's equivalent to having these 2 separate forms. 185 00:24:10.990 --> 00:24:13.429 Benji Fisher: Yeah, also the 186 00:24:14.090 --> 00:24:18.310 Benji Fisher: the field set has a thin gray border around it 187 00:24:18.430 --> 00:24:25.050 Benji Fisher: which you might not notice at all, Aaron, because II know you have. 188 00:24:25.320 --> 00:24:43.959 Aaron McHale: I suppose there is the indenting, which is slightly more obvious. But it's not. Yeah. If you're if you're quickly scanning through like, if you're using keyboard navigation like the next thing you tab. The next thing you jump to is the select list. So for somebody who's just navigating, using keyboard navigation, they're gonna completely miss 189 00:24:44.140 --> 00:24:47.600 Aaron McHale: that information up here. 190 00:24:47.840 --> 00:24:58.539 Aaron McHale: and they will just jump through the field set and like. Now, you know, so like for for somebody who's using only keyboard navigation, this is this is not. Not good at all. 191 00:25:01.060 --> 00:25:06.260 Aaron McHale: But yeah, if we like reorder this, for instance, and I save this. 192 00:25:06.950 --> 00:25:10.060 Aaron McHale: and then I come back to article. 193 00:25:11.110 --> 00:25:16.629 Benji Fisher: and the indentation becomes less and less useful for distinguishing the sections of form. 194 00:25:16.830 --> 00:25:21.489 Aaron McHale: Form gets more and more complicated as more options to 195 00:25:21.710 --> 00:25:26.469 Benji Fisher: be allowed values. Thomas has been waiting for a while to say something. Go ahead, Thomas. 196 00:25:26.570 --> 00:25:46.520 Thomas Howell: Thank you. I forget my original point. But everything that was talked is awesome. The II agree, 99%. Initially, I was on the fence as to whether or not this was a frustration, the way I would characterize or summarize what everyone said is, 197 00:25:46.930 --> 00:25:53.590 Thomas Howell: we have essentially a global effect neck in the middle of a whole bunch of localized effects. 198 00:25:54.280 --> 00:26:12.989 Thomas Howell: And that isn't clear, and writing it up in a blob of text is not effective. For communicating how this works. So to me, this is presenting an even bigger barrier 199 00:26:13.070 --> 00:26:15.010 Thomas Howell: to newer users. 200 00:26:15.590 --> 00:26:28.820 Thomas Howell: It like. These things are pretty hard when you're new to drupal. In the first place, to understand that once you like, we can say in words when we create 201 00:26:28.990 --> 00:26:43.560 Thomas Howell: content, then this form comes fixed, and we can't change it. But it's really hard to understand what that really means conceptually, and by mixing these forms you make it even harder for someone to understand what's going on. 202 00:26:43.860 --> 00:27:04.479 Thomas Howell: and I don't understand. Oh, that was my original thing is, I don't understand what the motivation was for getting rid of that tab, is it just they don't want to have a global and local tab is like, why I understand the rest of the changes. But I don't understand this specific change that's being implemented like, why is it? What's the motivation? 203 00:27:07.010 --> 00:27:26.979 Aaron McHale: I think, on the one issue the It says here that users across all skill levels have a hard time understanding the difference between different steps in the field of creation process. Even experienced users reported. They don't remember on which form the configuration they're looking for exists. 204 00:27:27.140 --> 00:27:30.520 Aaron McHale: and they usually find configuration by trial and error 205 00:27:30.540 --> 00:27:47.439 Aaron McHale: specific examples of 2 forms separated, creating Usability issues like another issue 2, 9, 2, 4, 0 7, 6 field config form for an entity reference. Field doesn't tell you what entity type. It's referencing. 206 00:27:48.590 --> 00:27:58.790 Aaron McHale: And I guess that was done in the field. You buy 23 user research, which is issue number 3, 3, 3, 4, 3, 9, 4, 0 207 00:28:00.150 --> 00:28:03.440 Thomas Howell: did did. But it did they test this new 208 00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:14.339 Thomas Howell: like, did they put stuff together in this way and then find that users were understanding it? Or are they just trying to solve a problem? They're assuming this fixes the problem. 209 00:28:16.210 --> 00:28:22.709 Benji Fisher: As far as I'm sure they have not done any. Follow up user testing after implementing it. 210 00:28:23.200 --> 00:28:30.070 Benji Fisher: and they they seem to be taking the position that the user research, they've done 211 00:28:30.230 --> 00:28:33.090 Benji Fisher: the user testing the Usability study. 212 00:28:33.300 --> 00:28:35.240 Benji Fisher: is enough 213 00:28:35.310 --> 00:28:40.139 Benji Fisher: to satisfy the core gate of of usability and accessibility. 214 00:28:40.690 --> 00:28:55.749 Thomas Howell: Okay, that's just it's it's confusing. Like, I understand the identifying a problem with the user research. But it doesn't seem that the user research is sufficient to indicate that the proposed solution is a viable answer. 215 00:28:56.010 --> 00:29:14.729 Thomas Howell: I mean, I think that's where we're kind of running up against it is I'm not seeing this is making it any easier. Whereas I do understand that all of this stuff is problematic. So II feel like, maybe this is the wrong solution to a valid problem. 216 00:29:15.220 --> 00:29:17.960 Benji Fisher: We're getting a thumbs up from Ralph. 217 00:29:18.310 --> 00:29:24.810 Benji Fisher: Ralph. You earlier raised your hand. But I guess you decided that you're just agreeing with what everyone else is saying. 218 00:29:27.140 --> 00:29:34.740 Ralf Koller: No, Erin, I just wanted to add the detail about the usability studies, but Aaron already answered it. So 219 00:29:35.020 --> 00:29:37.720 Ralf Koller: I pulled back the raise tent. 220 00:29:37.910 --> 00:29:39.250 Benji Fisher: Okay? 221 00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:43.519 Benji Fisher: So I guess 222 00:29:44.980 --> 00:29:45.710 we 223 00:29:46.220 --> 00:29:47.969 Benji Fisher: we do sometimes 224 00:29:48.340 --> 00:29:51.860 Benji Fisher: commit an issue and then revert it. 225 00:29:53.670 --> 00:29:58.530 Benji Fisher: U, usually for more technical reasons. I've never seen it done for usability reasons. 226 00:30:00.080 --> 00:30:01.829 Benji Fisher: but I guess 227 00:30:03.570 --> 00:30:07.750 Benji Fisher: we should continue the discussion on the fixed issue 228 00:30:11.070 --> 00:30:15.690 Benji Fisher: and advocate, for I'm undoing it. 229 00:30:17.260 --> 00:30:18.400 Benji Fisher: I guess 230 00:30:20.940 --> 00:30:28.800 Benji Fisher: one thing we should do at the same time is recommend other solutions for the specific problems 231 00:30:29.170 --> 00:30:32.940 Benji Fisher: that are cited in the issue summary. 232 00:30:33.230 --> 00:30:36.539 Benji Fisher: So, for example, 233 00:30:37.060 --> 00:30:41.860 Benji Fisher: users have trouble, remembering whether it's on this form or that form 234 00:30:42.410 --> 00:30:47.279 Benji Fisher: that doesn't seem to me like such a big problem. Since they are 2 tabs 235 00:30:47.640 --> 00:30:54.059 Benji Fisher: on the same page. It's easy to navigate from one to the other if you don't remember where it is. 236 00:30:55.420 --> 00:31:00.289 Benji Fisher: and we have to make the case that that's outweighed 237 00:31:00.820 --> 00:31:03.030 Benji Fisher: by the the confusion 238 00:31:03.510 --> 00:31:07.990 Benji Fisher: of having the 2 forms combined. 239 00:31:08.420 --> 00:31:11.780 Benji Fisher: a. 240 00:31:13.070 --> 00:31:15.349 Benji Fisher: The fact that the 241 00:31:16.240 --> 00:31:18.410 Benji Fisher: the current help text 242 00:31:19.130 --> 00:31:22.159 Benji Fisher: is not enough to make the distinction 243 00:31:22.700 --> 00:31:24.240 Benji Fisher: that we are doing 244 00:31:24.280 --> 00:31:27.499 Benji Fisher: 2 things on one form, which is an anti-pattern. 245 00:31:28.170 --> 00:31:32.820 Benji Fisher: raise the point that the 246 00:31:33.370 --> 00:31:36.969 Benji Fisher: field sets has 247 00:31:37.110 --> 00:31:40.169 Benji Fisher: accessibility problems for for keyboard users. 248 00:31:40.570 --> 00:31:45.930 Benji Fisher: for those who have trouble distinguishing the light gray border. 249 00:31:46.270 --> 00:31:52.269 Benji Fisher: Wh, which, by the way, I think all of us have trouble, seeing that in in the Aaron's zoom window, and 250 00:31:53.020 --> 00:31:57.540 Benji Fisher: and that that's sort of a proxy for for having limited 251 00:31:58.070 --> 00:31:59.840 Benji Fisher: visual acuity. 252 00:32:01.830 --> 00:32:08.180 Benji Fisher: So I think we have to continue the discussion on on that issue and recommend that 253 00:32:09.810 --> 00:32:12.810 Benji Fisher: the committers undo the the change they've made. 254 00:32:15.390 --> 00:32:16.060 Hmm! 255 00:32:16.700 --> 00:32:28.879 Simo Hellsten: One thing also, maybe I'd I'd like to say it here. That is sometimes confusing is that you kind of have that same field kind of the same field, same name in different. 256 00:32:29.300 --> 00:32:41.780 Simo Hellsten: which is called you can have same one with notes and with terms, and so that it's kind of kind of the same, but they are not connected, except that they they. 257 00:32:42.140 --> 00:32:44.410 Simo Hellsten: a site builder, might make them 258 00:32:44.420 --> 00:32:49.589 Simo Hellsten: to be the same. But that's also another thing that could be confusing. So it's not. 259 00:32:49.600 --> 00:32:51.020 Simo Hellsten: It's not always 260 00:32:51.180 --> 00:32:59.330 Simo Hellsten: user. It doesn't always look like some settings are global, because that user has the same kind of 261 00:32:59.560 --> 00:33:01.239 Simo Hellsten: same name 262 00:33:01.580 --> 00:33:13.699 Simo Hellsten: field in taxonomy ending nodes. So then it, it's not global from the user's perspective, because it's different field, even if it has the same name. 263 00:33:15.310 --> 00:33:18.199 Simo Hellsten: So there is also on on another level. 264 00:33:18.550 --> 00:33:21.720 Benji Fisher: I don't see how that's related to this issue, though. 265 00:33:28.170 --> 00:33:30.010 Simo Hellsten: Yeah, I think that 266 00:33:30.240 --> 00:33:43.379 Simo Hellsten: when we say, that's like, with the global something that affects globally so it can be from users perspective, they might be confusing if it's the same field or not. The same field. 267 00:33:44.070 --> 00:33:45.330 Simo Hellsten: But yes. 268 00:33:46.890 --> 00:33:47.690 Simo Hellsten: that's 269 00:33:49.750 --> 00:33:56.439 Benji Fisher: I think we should also raise the point that 270 00:33:56.910 --> 00:33:59.010 Benji Fisher: that they they should. 271 00:33:59.250 --> 00:34:07.800 Benji Fisher: They seem to have skipped the step of validating their proposed solution against the original. Yes, you did, user testing 272 00:34:08.679 --> 00:34:12.550 at the start of the process. But you don't seem to have done user testing 273 00:34:12.710 --> 00:34:14.800 Benji Fisher: at the end of the process. 274 00:34:16.690 --> 00:34:22.580 Benji Fisher: To really make that point, we should go to the effort of suggesting 275 00:34:22.940 --> 00:34:28.980 Benji Fisher: the sorts of user tests that would show the problems that we've brought up. 276 00:34:35.130 --> 00:34:36.670 Benji Fisher: Ralph. Go ahead. 277 00:34:36.889 --> 00:34:39.070 Ralf Koller: One idea might be 278 00:34:40.790 --> 00:34:41.779 Ralf Koller: they could 279 00:34:41.949 --> 00:34:49.440 Ralf Koller: basically test all those issues that were committed at next week's triple con 280 00:34:49.880 --> 00:34:56.100 Ralf Koller: on Contribution Day, for example, and that then that way get direct feedback. Well, probably 281 00:34:56.889 --> 00:35:04.210 Ralf Koller: most of the people attending are more experienced users, but still there would be some valuable feedback that way. 282 00:35:07.230 --> 00:35:12.550 Benji Fisher: Yeah, it's awfully short notice to be organizing Us. Ability 283 00:35:12.690 --> 00:35:17.720 Benji Fisher: testing at Drupalcon. But if that's possible, that would be a really good thing. 284 00:35:18.500 --> 00:35:19.190 And 285 00:35:19.930 --> 00:35:23.770 Benji Fisher: and the 286 00:35:24.790 --> 00:35:28.400 Benji Fisher: the organizers of user testing would have to 287 00:35:29.170 --> 00:35:36.559 Benji Fisher: include people who are skeptical of these changes as well as people who are in favor of these changes. Because it's 288 00:35:36.970 --> 00:35:45.889 Benji Fisher: it's really hard to come up with a user test. That challenge is a change that you're in favor of. 289 00:35:46.880 --> 00:35:49.250 Benji Fisher: alright, that's 290 00:35:49.680 --> 00:35:57.169 Benji Fisher: that's why developers have separate Qa people testing their work rather than testing their own work. Same principle. Go ahead, Thomas. 291 00:35:57.800 --> 00:36:03.770 Thomas Howell: I'm I'm very interested in how we can effectively 292 00:36:03.780 --> 00:36:06.840 Thomas Howell: make the point that we 293 00:36:07.390 --> 00:36:08.940 Thomas Howell: are concerned about. 294 00:36:09.320 --> 00:36:31.899 Thomas Howell: In addition to the need for kind of follow up usability testing or validation testing user acceptance testing. But in addition to that, just the fact that they didn't think to even bring it to this group or bring it to an accessibility group to see if such a significant change was going to introduce other problems. So 295 00:36:32.670 --> 00:36:37.029 Thomas Howell: what's the best way that we can? Be seen as a 296 00:36:37.230 --> 00:36:56.799 Thomas Howell: positive advocate for, hey, folks? We understand the the rapidity with which you wanna get changes in. But this is a pretty big one, and making something that's already messy and complex, as shown in your own usability testing. 297 00:36:57.850 --> 00:37:17.389 Thomas Howell: Those are the most important times to be getting a a I guess expert opinion is not necessarily the, but at least the the resident expert opinion, because the the Ux team ostensibly is providing some counter balance. But how can we 298 00:37:18.820 --> 00:37:25.060 Thomas Howell: make certain that our concerns are heard in a way that this doesn't happen again in the future. 299 00:37:28.570 --> 00:37:31.289 Simo Hellsten: One thing that 300 00:37:33.210 --> 00:37:34.730 Simo Hellsten: one thing, yeah. 301 00:37:37.500 --> 00:37:39.510 Benji Fisher: you muted yourself. Email. 302 00:37:44.870 --> 00:37:53.459 Simo Hellsten: yeah, I was thinking that one thing that could helps help, but I don't know if they get used. It could be some kind of a checklist 303 00:37:53.550 --> 00:38:04.030 Simo Hellsten: for like, if you're changing a form check, that form does one thing only one thing, and it the only effects, like kind of doesn't do local and global 304 00:38:04.080 --> 00:38:17.809 Simo Hellsten: changes at the same time. That's kind of some kind of a very simple checklist, so so that the developers could check. I'm editing or I'm changing a form. Does. Can I check these boxes? It only does one thing. 305 00:38:17.820 --> 00:38:21.110 Simo Hellsten: it doesn't do this. It does that that kind of 306 00:38:21.350 --> 00:38:29.310 Simo Hellsten: checklist. If we could introduce that, and if it wouldn't get used, then it would help. But I don't know if such things get used. 307 00:38:31.130 --> 00:38:36.929 Aaron McHale: Yeah, we have a user interface standards documented on triple.org 308 00:38:37.220 --> 00:38:38.930 Aaron McHale: and I've 309 00:38:39.240 --> 00:38:50.860 Aaron McHale: thought we should maybe collectively look at you know, expanding and updating them, because I don't know if they've had much attention over the last of several years. But 310 00:38:51.230 --> 00:38:59.179 Aaron McHale: that, that also illustrates the problem with just because they're there doesn't mean that people know they're there or no to reference somewhere to look at them. 311 00:38:59.480 --> 00:39:03.919 Aaron McHale: So I think there's a element of 312 00:39:04.550 --> 00:39:14.560 Aaron McHale: making sure cause. I think this comes down to like. you know, if that practically like core connectors are the people who are responsible for 313 00:39:14.660 --> 00:39:25.449 Aaron McHale: committing something in, so they they should all be ensuring that before they connect, that the relevant sign-off has happened from the the you know, the relevant core gates have been passed. 314 00:39:25.780 --> 00:39:26.830 Aaron McHale: And 315 00:39:27.300 --> 00:39:30.950 Aaron McHale: it. It seems that that 316 00:39:31.350 --> 00:39:54.419 Aaron McHale: and again I'm I. I'm not wanting to imply anything malicious by just it feels like that. That isn't being done as strictly as it it maybe could be because of. You know, the example we're seeing here, where now we've got a committed issue which has clearly had some problems that could have been picked up if it had been brought up to a meeting previously before we committed 317 00:39:57.750 --> 00:40:03.539 Benji Fisher: right well, we we did have a discussion with Lowry. I think it was last week's meeting. 318 00:40:04.200 --> 00:40:07.220 Benji Fisher: and Aaron. 319 00:40:07.730 --> 00:40:11.799 Benji Fisher: I suggested talking with him in person at triple con, if possible. 320 00:40:12.260 --> 00:40:20.690 Benji Fisher: But you know, Larry is a core committer, and he's project manager for drupal. So 321 00:40:21.170 --> 00:40:27.429 Benji Fisher: you know if he wants to put a patch in. 322 00:40:27.870 --> 00:40:32.770 Benji Fisher: You know we we don't have a mechanism to to stop, and I think our our best 323 00:40:34.060 --> 00:40:36.250 Benji Fisher: course of action is to 324 00:40:36.500 --> 00:40:39.769 Benji Fisher: try to get our opinions heard early. 325 00:40:40.160 --> 00:40:53.850 Benji Fisher: which at at the moment means sort of anticipating the issues that are being worked on and reviewing them proactively rather than waiting for someone to tag them for usability. Review and ask for you. Go ahead, Ralph. 326 00:40:55.320 --> 00:40:58.049 Ralf Koller: but working proactively and following 327 00:40:58.110 --> 00:41:04.349 Ralf Koller: air, quotes everything, is quite a demanding task, and I think 328 00:41:04.990 --> 00:41:07.899 Ralf Koller: it's overwhelming sort of. And 329 00:41:07.950 --> 00:41:10.109 Ralf Koller: there are already many 330 00:41:10.170 --> 00:41:16.540 Ralf Koller: issues with needs, a usability review. And now also follow along 331 00:41:17.100 --> 00:41:20.839 Ralf Koller: initiatives and actions alongside 332 00:41:21.070 --> 00:41:27.470 Ralf Koller: becomes a full-time job, and everyone here is not paid for those contributions, and 333 00:41:27.670 --> 00:41:32.909 Ralf Koller: they work on their own time. And, for example, the field Ui team is 334 00:41:32.930 --> 00:41:39.650 Ralf Koller: dedicated team with an Acqui actively working on, for example, the feedui, and they iterate fast and 335 00:41:40.150 --> 00:41:42.690 Ralf Koller: to follow everything and 336 00:41:42.830 --> 00:41:51.119 Ralf Koller: also work proactively there. It's sort of art. Yeah, to keep up that way, and I think 337 00:41:52.640 --> 00:42:01.299 Ralf Koller: glories. The core committed has a last say that is fine, but still the steps should should be followed, meaning 338 00:42:01.520 --> 00:42:08.879 Ralf Koller: with a change in the ui have a very usability meeting and bring it up the issue of that way, and 339 00:42:08.920 --> 00:42:14.640 Ralf Koller: that would would be oath. So the team hasn't have to follow proactively and 340 00:42:14.910 --> 00:42:18.360 Ralf Koller: spend even more time. And yeah, and now 341 00:42:19.530 --> 00:42:30.870 Ralf Koller: reverting or fixing things like, for example, that same was at the with the add field. You either new one that's also issues, and same is here so 342 00:42:31.350 --> 00:42:33.440 Ralf Koller: suboptimal. Let's put it that way 343 00:42:34.590 --> 00:42:35.979 Aaron McHale: right second, Thomas. 344 00:42:37.140 --> 00:42:37.840 Aaron McHale: But 345 00:42:39.720 --> 00:42:43.169 Thomas Howell: well, Erin can go first. It's right. I yeah, sorry it's it's 346 00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:46.519 Aaron McHale: it's hard to know if anyone's raised their hand for them. 347 00:42:46.570 --> 00:42:58.969 Aaron McHale: Let me open the chat window. No, I just wanted to just to sit to follow up a couple of points that II you know I don't think anyone you know I don't think Laurie, or or any core commanders would. 348 00:42:59.210 --> 00:43:16.059 Aaron McHale: Intentionally. I don't believe it would intention. Try to circumvent, you know, like usability reviews or accessibility reviews. Because I don't think that's part of our like our culture as a community. I think we're we're quite for our open source project. I think we're actually quite good at. 349 00:43:16.120 --> 00:43:18.920 Aaron McHale: generally speaking, at these things. 350 00:43:19.350 --> 00:43:26.470 Aaron McHale: I just think it's it's just it's sometimes with these things. It's it's easy to think. 351 00:43:26.510 --> 00:43:41.869 Aaron McHale: as we said earlier, that like, okay, we did usability testing. We did reason, research. Great. We can do all these things, that. And that's that's fine, if you if you have the conclusions there. So I don't think there was any you know bad intentions through that, but I think it's just 352 00:43:42.010 --> 00:43:44.149 Aaron McHale: making people aware that. 353 00:43:44.450 --> 00:44:12.219 Aaron McHale: And usually. And this could be a good example of something where actually, we can use this as a learning opportunity to say, Okay, in the future. This is a good example of why, you might wanna make sure. Even if you've done user testing, you wanna run these things past a group of people, who can provide input. And then that then that's something that we can, you know, as as maybe an in person. Chat is the easiest way to make sure that there's no you know, no miscommunication there on on. But 354 00:44:12.500 --> 00:44:17.639 Aaron McHale: yeah, II think that's probably the anything I was gonna I wanted to say on that 355 00:44:21.340 --> 00:44:22.440 Benji Fisher: comments, go ahead. 356 00:44:23.220 --> 00:44:30.979 Thomas Howell: Ii agree with everything. Everyone has said a hundred percent and in addition to that. 357 00:44:31.690 --> 00:44:36.210 Thomas Howell: I think that it's and I agree that it that it's 358 00:44:36.980 --> 00:44:43.550 Thomas Howell: certainly not. Intentional. I think that people who are 359 00:44:43.700 --> 00:44:58.739 Thomas Howell: working to meet deadlines or to produce changes on a particular timeline can sometimes rush things a little bit, and I think that this is an instance where 360 00:44:58.840 --> 00:45:02.620 Thomas Howell: it's important to note that. 361 00:45:02.840 --> 00:45:07.400 Thomas Howell: if this group is ever slowing down the process. 362 00:45:07.510 --> 00:45:30.829 Thomas Howell: Then like, that's a great time for feedback about how maybe we could change XY or Z about what we're doing. But I don't. I'm pretty sure that's not the instance right now. Like, if if anyone on that team had come to us with this issue it would have had conversation for a period of time. And ultimately, as like the the project manager or whomever 363 00:45:30.830 --> 00:45:37.890 Thomas Howell: that team wanted to override our recommendations, they certainly could. So I think the 364 00:45:37.890 --> 00:45:42.190 Thomas Howell: it's important to note in any conversation with Lowri or anyone else. 365 00:45:42.250 --> 00:46:05.359 Thomas Howell: That the gate is not intended to slow things down. It's actually intended to help avoid things getting into core that would actually make things less usable and just catch problems. It's not. It's not intended to slow down the process. And I just 366 00:46:05.440 --> 00:46:16.719 Thomas Howell: I think it's important to note. It's not on our part, either. We're not trying to be nit picky or a maintain territory. It's really just 367 00:46:18.780 --> 00:46:22.250 Thomas Howell: it. If this goes out and gets used. 368 00:46:22.340 --> 00:46:37.430 Thomas Howell: We anticipate that there's going to be issues, and we're trying to help avoid someone having to write additional issues in the future, etc., etc. When this could have been caught during the actual software development life cycle of drupal 369 00:46:37.710 --> 00:46:40.450 Thomas Howell: in core, specifically. thank you. 370 00:46:40.840 --> 00:46:44.329 Benji Fisher: Yeah. So what are our next steps. 371 00:46:44.530 --> 00:46:45.330 Benji Fisher: or 372 00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:50.470 Benji Fisher: the particular issue of combining the 2 forms. 373 00:46:50.660 --> 00:46:53.250 Benji Fisher: and the more general issue of 374 00:46:53.850 --> 00:46:58.440 Benji Fisher: getting back to the process of reviewing 375 00:46:58.480 --> 00:47:03.130 Benji Fisher: early rather than after things have been committed. What are the next steps? 376 00:47:07.200 --> 00:47:08.859 Aaron McHale: I think. 377 00:47:09.390 --> 00:47:18.590 Aaron McHale: it's, you know, worth it's worth this posting comment on the fixed issue, I think. Equally. I'm I'm happy to 378 00:47:18.710 --> 00:47:25.019 Aaron McHale: pick just sort of, you know. Have a have an informal chat with Laurie or others at triple con just 379 00:47:25.300 --> 00:47:26.450 Aaron McHale: highlight. 380 00:47:26.520 --> 00:47:32.290 Aaron McHale: The concerns or issues that were raised. Both in 381 00:47:32.320 --> 00:47:42.180 Aaron McHale: terms of this issue. But I think posting on the issue itself will will address that, but just in general, in terms of like the the the approach that seems to be taken. I 382 00:47:42.590 --> 00:48:00.790 Aaron McHale: thank you. I would have liked to have seen, I think I met raise this before that I would have liked to seem like the approach of an experimental module used, because that would have been a much safer way to experiment with these changes rather on the rather than on the field ui module that's enabled on hundreds of thousands of sites. 383 00:48:01.030 --> 00:48:17.919 Aaron McHale: And that way we could have as we've done with other things in the past, like Project Browser and and automatic updates. Or you know, we could review. They could get everything in, and then we could take have a have a a cohesive review of of everything right, and that that's one way to not. 384 00:48:18.510 --> 00:48:46.949 Aaron McHale: I'll add, not to mean the group isn't like we have to review every single issue, and it's not slowing down like the process of of things getting done? Because if it's an experimental module, then then it's okay. You know, we people can turn on turn off. Try out. That's fine. So maybe, and maybe that's something which should be done. Maybe that's an opportunity now to actually move some of these things into an experimental field before 10.2 is released. 385 00:48:47.000 --> 00:48:50.380 Aaron McHale: But again, I think there's a conversation to have there. 386 00:48:54.620 --> 00:49:02.110 Simo Hellsten: I don't know if if modi module is, it kind of makes sense in group of context. But I was thinking that 387 00:49:02.220 --> 00:49:04.230 Simo Hellsten: event to have a kind of a 388 00:49:04.840 --> 00:49:12.520 Simo Hellsten: all this stuff feels stuff. If if it would have been merged into one branch that could be then merged into core. So it would be something that 389 00:49:12.810 --> 00:49:22.010 Simo Hellsten: I don't know if Rupel has, but it kind of would be a kind of a full feature change branch where it could be run and tested. 390 00:49:22.580 --> 00:49:26.209 Simo Hellsten: As such without putting it all in court 391 00:49:26.750 --> 00:49:28.019 Simo Hellsten: one by one. 392 00:49:30.680 --> 00:49:38.969 Aaron McHale: Yeah, you could have, like a one issue that tracks all these changes and has like issue, child issues or something, and that has a merge request with everything in it, but 393 00:49:39.200 --> 00:49:43.509 Aaron McHale: which is kind of what happens with ex. What experimental modules, for instance? 394 00:49:47.040 --> 00:49:50.830 Benji Fisher: I'll I'll suggest another concrete step 395 00:49:52.110 --> 00:49:53.130 at 396 00:49:53.440 --> 00:49:58.870 Benji Fisher: at our next meeting. Let's discuss the 397 00:49:59.010 --> 00:50:01.869 Benji Fisher: the issue. They're currently working on 398 00:50:03.150 --> 00:50:14.259 Benji Fisher: group of docky and working on the field. Ui. which is to use modals in field creation flow. I'll paste it into the zoom chat. 399 00:50:14.710 --> 00:50:17.319 Benji Fisher: and it's issue 3, 3, 8, 400 00:50:17.430 --> 00:50:19.460 Benji Fisher: 6, 7, 6, 2 401 00:50:20.090 --> 00:50:33.460 Benji Fisher: ralph mentions in chat the the current merge request on that issue is broken and impossible to apply. So II agree. And that's 402 00:50:33.800 --> 00:50:40.240 Benji Fisher: one reason we can't talk about it today. But I think sort of the larger region is is that we haven't prepared for it. 403 00:50:40.780 --> 00:50:41.640 Benji Fisher: But 404 00:50:44.840 --> 00:50:48.500 Benji Fisher: but I think by by next week we should 405 00:50:48.680 --> 00:50:53.719 Benji Fisher: try to discuss it and and provide early feedback. 406 00:50:55.060 --> 00:50:58.580 Benji Fisher: and I'm getting a thumbs up from Ralph. 407 00:50:58.850 --> 00:50:59.940 Benji Fisher: So 408 00:51:00.690 --> 00:51:09.980 Benji Fisher: so I guess our our follow ups are are one to comment on the issue. We started with the the already fixed issue of 409 00:51:10.070 --> 00:51:14.160 Benji Fisher: combining the the 2 field creation forms. 410 00:51:14.380 --> 00:51:25.420 Benji Fisher: second, try to have some in-person conversations about reminding people that the core gates are there. I pasted the link 411 00:51:25.660 --> 00:51:29.520 Benji Fisher: for the drupal core gates into zoom chat. I don't know if you 412 00:51:29.560 --> 00:51:30.709 Benji Fisher: notice that or not. 413 00:51:31.390 --> 00:51:39.040 Benji Fisher: And and third, let's discuss this issue as as soon as we 414 00:51:39.650 --> 00:51:40.320 can. 415 00:51:42.420 --> 00:51:43.979 Benji Fisher: and arrange to do so. 416 00:51:45.500 --> 00:51:48.270 Benji Fisher: Thanks, Aaron. That's that's the page of the core gates. 417 00:51:48.770 --> 00:51:51.100 Benji Fisher: the last one in alphabetical order. 418 00:51:51.440 --> 00:51:53.359 Benji Fisher: his usability. 419 00:51:55.090 --> 00:51:58.769 Aaron McHale: But accessibility is first. So that's good, too. 420 00:51:59.040 --> 00:52:16.009 Aaron McHale: Well, actually, that's kind of fun. Because if you follow them in that order you fix accessibility bugs, and then, like the very last thing before it's released, is to do like a final usability review and make sure that there's nothing that you know. Maybe you change things in the middle here, you know. And then you want to do a final review. And 421 00:52:16.750 --> 00:52:19.869 Aaron McHale: maybe you know. Maybe that's actually not a bad order. 422 00:52:26.520 --> 00:52:30.219 Benji Fisher: All right. We have almost 15 min left. 423 00:52:30.410 --> 00:52:35.830 Benji Fisher: And unless 424 00:52:36.140 --> 00:52:38.509 Benji Fisher: if we're ready, are we ready to move on 425 00:52:40.220 --> 00:52:41.429 Benji Fisher: to another issue. 426 00:52:42.360 --> 00:52:45.089 Aaron McHale: I thought we were. I was. 427 00:52:45.260 --> 00:53:07.410 Aaron McHale: I was gonna suggest as I said, I'm I'm more than happy to have an you know in person conversations with Draco con and II could do a quick write up for the issue. On the middle. I'm a little short on time at the moment. So maybe maybe I could pull something quick into the chat and we could flesh out on slack or something. 428 00:53:09.050 --> 00:53:10.160 Okay, thank you. 429 00:53:11.860 --> 00:53:16.090 Benji Fisher: So I think I'm sharing my screen now. It should show issue 430 00:53:16.600 --> 00:53:19.439 Benji Fisher: 2, 8, 9, 0 7, 9, one. 431 00:53:20.120 --> 00:53:25.700 Benji Fisher: Improve usability of disabled checkboxes on the module listing page. 432 00:53:26.590 --> 00:53:31.270 Benji Fisher: and this actually has a very 433 00:53:31.740 --> 00:53:35.730 Benji Fisher: descriptive issue. Summary. I appreciate that 434 00:53:36.130 --> 00:53:47.960 Benji Fisher: modules on the listing page can have their check boxes disabled. And there's no messaging to the end user as to why this is occurring, and and this is sort of a familiar 435 00:53:48.740 --> 00:53:52.640 Benji Fisher: points among this group that 436 00:53:53.120 --> 00:53:56.279 Benji Fisher: disabled check boxes are always a bad idea. 437 00:53:56.530 --> 00:54:01.140 Benji Fisher: Maybe I'll open this screenshot in a separate tab, so it'll be larger. 438 00:54:01.720 --> 00:54:03.549 Benji Fisher: And this is what it 439 00:54:03.920 --> 00:54:05.180 Benji Fisher: has looked like. 440 00:54:05.520 --> 00:54:10.629 Benji Fisher: The enabled modules cannot be disabled from this page. So there 441 00:54:10.730 --> 00:54:15.899 Benji Fisher: they have check boxes, but they're disabled. Let me look at 442 00:54:16.100 --> 00:54:17.899 Benji Fisher: a live site where 443 00:54:18.120 --> 00:54:20.880 Benji Fisher: I'm using the merge request from this issue. 444 00:54:21.700 --> 00:54:26.170 Benji Fisher: All of the installed modules have been put inside 445 00:54:26.520 --> 00:54:28.340 Benji Fisher: this collapsed 446 00:54:28.920 --> 00:54:32.689 Benji Fisher: details element. If you open it up. 447 00:54:33.160 --> 00:54:34.910 Benji Fisher: I'm sorry I had it opened up. 448 00:54:35.180 --> 00:54:38.549 Benji Fisher: If you open it up, then there is no checkbox at all. 449 00:54:38.700 --> 00:54:40.800 Benji Fisher: The check box has just been removed. 450 00:54:41.940 --> 00:54:54.039 Benji Fisher: some modules may be uninstalled on the uninstall page. So that's a helpful message. 451 00:54:54.210 --> 00:54:58.400 Benji Fisher: You can also get there as one of the tabs on this page. 452 00:54:59.640 --> 00:55:05.089 Benji Fisher: and I'm not entirely sure what other changes have been made to this page. 453 00:55:05.300 --> 00:55:06.749 Benji Fisher: The show. 454 00:55:07.700 --> 00:55:11.120 Benji Fisher: all columns. Link doesn't seem to 455 00:55:11.790 --> 00:55:16.779 Benji Fisher: do anything, but maybe that's because I already have a wide screen. There are no hidden columns. 456 00:55:17.310 --> 00:55:21.519 Benji Fisher: and then the rest of the page, I think, is is unchanged. We have 457 00:55:22.750 --> 00:55:27.370 Benji Fisher: groups of modules, core core, experimental field types, and so on. 458 00:55:29.870 --> 00:55:33.030 Benji Fisher: Any questions. First, about 459 00:55:33.250 --> 00:55:37.859 Benji Fisher: the problem here with the issue that it's trying to address. Go ahead, Ralph. 460 00:55:38.600 --> 00:55:42.509 Ralf Koller: Could you narrow down the screen, please? 461 00:55:42.860 --> 00:55:52.820 Ralf Koller: Cause the button you've mentioned? I also stumbled across that, and with a narrow screen. Then the label of the button changes. 462 00:55:53.220 --> 00:55:56.869 Ralf Koller: and it becomes even more confusing. And it's already yes. 463 00:55:58.900 --> 00:56:02.079 Ralf Koller: this this button show all columns. 464 00:56:02.860 --> 00:56:05.150 Ralf Koller: yep, if you click it now. 465 00:56:06.110 --> 00:56:11.599 Benji Fisher: So currently we're we just see the names of the modules. And if I click that. 466 00:56:13.020 --> 00:56:15.320 Benji Fisher: nothing happens exactly. 467 00:56:16.670 --> 00:56:22.410 Ralf Koller: but with a wide screen, if you click it, the height. Lower priority columns isn't showing up. 468 00:56:25.030 --> 00:56:29.709 Ralf Koller: So not on Mobile on a mobile view. I think I noticed that to the 469 00:56:31.310 --> 00:56:37.949 Benji Fisher: well, I'm using browser tools to change the screen with let me try 470 00:56:38.490 --> 00:56:40.720 Benji Fisher: reloading the page 471 00:56:42.210 --> 00:56:43.120 and 472 00:56:43.860 --> 00:56:49.190 Benji Fisher: without changing screen with when I click on this it just goes away. 473 00:56:50.510 --> 00:56:57.999 Benji Fisher: I'm not sure whether that's specific to this issue or or not. 474 00:56:58.240 --> 00:57:03.250 Ralf Koller: but the pattern got introduced by this issue. So 475 00:57:04.940 --> 00:57:11.449 Benji Fisher: well, there are other places where we have responsive tables. 476 00:57:11.610 --> 00:57:14.220 Benji Fisher: and I'm not sure whether but how much 477 00:57:14.650 --> 00:57:16.400 Benji Fisher: button is 478 00:57:18.400 --> 00:57:20.850 Benji Fisher: is customized for the current page. 479 00:57:21.890 --> 00:57:23.779 Benji Fisher: But go ahead, Thomas. 480 00:57:24.320 --> 00:57:38.499 Thomas Howell: Just a brief question on the latest versions of drupal that this is this patch is being applied to. Does the installed modules section is, is, does that exist in a in the standard. 481 00:57:39.740 --> 00:57:46.040 Thomas Howell: I just II don't recall, like the the older versions that I've installed. 482 00:57:46.670 --> 00:57:50.719 Thomas Howell: it still kept the installed modules. 483 00:57:51.290 --> 00:58:00.779 Thomas Howell: I thought they were still grouped. And that's what I'm trying to understand is whether or not the grouping of installed modules. No, it doesn't look like it was. 484 00:58:01.140 --> 00:58:04.330 Benji Fisher: Did I close close the tab with a screenshot. 485 00:58:06.800 --> 00:58:11.469 Benji Fisher: So this is what it looked like before the installed modules were indicated by having 486 00:58:11.530 --> 00:58:15.280 Benji Fisher: the check box selected. and they were 487 00:58:15.540 --> 00:58:26.530 Thomas Howell: mixed in with the uninstalled modules. So does that. Does that mean that they still had the the rows that were essentially the categories? 488 00:58:28.870 --> 00:58:39.619 Thomas Howell: It. It's not showing if there was a if this is still in a category. So are they extracting the installed modules, moving them to the top and losing metadata. 489 00:58:39.790 --> 00:58:42.929 Benji Fisher: that that is what it looks like. So previously 490 00:58:42.990 --> 00:58:45.879 Benji Fisher: they were in these groups, or 491 00:58:45.930 --> 00:58:47.830 Benji Fisher: or experimental, and so on. 492 00:58:48.330 --> 00:58:52.609 and when it is installed there's no indication of which group it belongs to. 493 00:58:52.730 --> 00:59:12.330 Thomas Howell: Okay. For me. That's a problem I don't know if anyone else cares, but the loss of metadata means loss of the ability to comprehend. So it works great, for whoever installs these things works very poorly. If it's a custom series of modules that aren't clearly custom that have been installed. And you are later user of a site. 494 00:59:16.770 --> 00:59:17.919 Benji Fisher: Ralph, go ahead. 495 00:59:18.290 --> 00:59:32.679 Ralf Koller: I've tested the example with micro tools which is compatible with 1111, and that way it was possible, and if you install it, it gets into the whole list of installed modules in that way. 496 00:59:33.690 --> 00:59:46.739 Ralf Koller: For example, you're searching for a module and for me. Usually it's difficult to find configuration pages, and for me an easy way is I go to the extent page 497 00:59:46.990 --> 01:00:05.910 Ralf Koller: for the first time. If I know. Don't know if if a module has a configuration page, I go into the module, extend page, then I go to the return to the module region, for example, migration, and then search for migrate tools, and then I can open it. But with 498 01:00:05.950 --> 01:00:10.739 Ralf Koller: in the current situation. You first have to expand, install modules, then you have 499 01:00:10.760 --> 01:00:21.250 Ralf Koller: manually scan down to migrate tools and click open the the description and then click another time to get to the configuration page that way. It's 500 01:00:21.710 --> 01:00:32.849 Ralf Koller: cumbersome. And one other detail that has also been noted in regards of screen readers. The installed modules emitting the check boxes. The check boxes were the anchor 501 01:00:32.880 --> 01:00:36.490 Ralf Koller: focusable, and 502 01:00:36.600 --> 01:00:38.839 Ralf Koller: to that anchor the 503 01:00:38.960 --> 01:00:45.780 Ralf Koller: module name was appended, and without that you just are able to tap through the descriptions, and also 504 01:00:45.890 --> 01:00:54.529 Ralf Koller: those descriptions are the only thing available in the install module section, and that way the whole context is missing 505 01:00:54.570 --> 01:00:57.660 Ralf Koller: and makes it difficult to process that way. 506 01:00:59.060 --> 01:01:05.300 Benji Fisher: Are are you saying that as you tab through, you never hit the title of Module? 507 01:01:05.630 --> 01:01:06.610 Benji Fisher: Interesting? 508 01:01:07.000 --> 01:01:14.280 Ralf Koller: And also it got it. It isn't getting announced, or is is accessible via the rotor invoice over, for example. So 509 01:01:14.390 --> 01:01:16.640 Ralf Koller: you just have the description section. 510 01:01:16.670 --> 01:01:20.660 Ralf Koller: Yeah, I'm tapping through it now and confirming what you're saying. 511 01:01:22.680 --> 01:01:25.200 Benji Fisher: I assume I can open yes. 512 01:01:28.460 --> 01:01:38.479 Benji Fisher: So just to illustrate, not with migrate tools. But you're you're saying that you often use this page to find this configure link right 513 01:01:39.030 --> 01:01:43.270 Ralf Koller: if it's in particular, for if if I install a new module. 514 01:01:43.280 --> 01:01:52.900 Ralf Koller: and I want to know if there is an any configuration page for that module that weighs easier instead of searching the configuration, and in which sub 515 01:01:52.930 --> 01:01:55.430 Ralf Koller: section of the configuration page. 516 01:01:55.750 --> 01:01:58.530 Ralf Koller: The module hides its configuration 517 01:01:58.620 --> 01:02:02.309 Benji Fisher: right? So when the page initially loads this 518 01:02:02.880 --> 01:02:09.500 Benji Fisher: feel this details, element is closed, and if I were search for automated Prom. 519 01:02:12.580 --> 01:02:15.620 Benji Fisher: If I use the filter, then it 520 01:02:15.640 --> 01:02:18.780 Benji Fisher: expands and I do find automated Chron. 521 01:02:19.650 --> 01:02:20.620 Ralf Koller: Okay. 522 01:02:23.450 --> 01:02:28.029 Benji Fisher: let's see, let me force. Reload the page again to get to sort of a 523 01:02:28.300 --> 01:02:29.729 Benji Fisher: clean starting point. 524 01:02:30.240 --> 01:02:38.989 Benji Fisher: so the filter provides a quick way to do what you're asking for. 525 01:02:40.640 --> 01:02:42.990 Benji Fisher: and you can get to the configure link that way. 526 01:02:43.810 --> 01:02:55.680 Benji Fisher: It would be even better if if I could tap through and and and get to the module titles. 527 01:02:56.460 --> 01:03:02.449 Benji Fisher: I've I've always found it frustrating to 528 01:03:04.040 --> 01:03:10.549 Benji Fisher: find things by their group, just because there are so many groups and so many groups are large and closing 529 01:03:11.460 --> 01:03:14.769 Benji Fisher: large ones. And scrolling down is is a bit of a pain. 530 01:03:15.010 --> 01:03:19.950 Benji Fisher: but, Aaron, go ahead. You wanted to say something on this. 531 01:03:22.290 --> 01:03:23.750 Aaron McHale: Thanks. 532 01:03:24.540 --> 01:03:35.729 Aaron McHale: yeah, III remember the past look to issue at least one issue around some. This module list, and one of the, for instance, was to like. 533 01:03:35.790 --> 01:03:43.470 Aaron McHale: have a set, have an install link for each module. Another suggestion was to like use the 534 01:03:43.510 --> 01:03:47.859 Aaron McHale: split button element, for, like the configure permissions, help links. 535 01:03:48.800 --> 01:03:55.870 Aaron McHale: and they just don't understand this proposed solution like what? 536 01:03:55.970 --> 01:04:00.510 Aaron McHale: What is it? Helping? Because surely. 537 01:04:00.520 --> 01:04:05.480 Aaron McHale: if you if yes, if you want a list of installed modules. 538 01:04:06.050 --> 01:04:13.010 Aaron McHale: then to me the most sensible option would just be to provide some kind of filter that filters the existing list. 539 01:04:14.100 --> 01:04:18.489 Aaron McHale: And I'm not sure that, like Rip, you know. 540 01:04:19.090 --> 01:04:27.210 Aaron McHale: having having the entire, more or less. The entire list repeated on this page is, I don't think that's necessarily a great pattern. 541 01:04:29.880 --> 01:04:33.459 Benji Fisher: So, for example, we already have the filter by name or description. 542 01:04:33.980 --> 01:04:43.690 Benji Fisher: We have this. Yeah, on on my white screen, we have this huge unused area where we could easily put in additional filters for installed and uninstalled 543 01:04:45.980 --> 01:04:50.910 Benji Fisher: we are almost out of time, Thomas. Can you make a quick comment? 544 01:04:51.150 --> 01:05:02.990 Thomas Howell: Very quick? Regarding my earlier concern. I would just suggest that. if you could just click on any particular module. Expanding the the information next to it. 545 01:05:03.130 --> 01:05:08.919 Thomas Howell: I would suggest that they add metadata here about what group something is in. 546 01:05:08.930 --> 01:05:16.270 Thomas Howell: even if they're not going to make it searchable that way. If they're going to go through. With this change you can still find 547 01:05:16.680 --> 01:05:18.499 Thomas Howell: what category it's under. 548 01:05:18.660 --> 01:05:19.360 Okay. 549 01:05:20.290 --> 01:05:21.120 Benji Fisher: yeah. 550 01:05:21.470 --> 01:05:24.429 Benji Fisher: certainly is is one way we could 551 01:05:26.270 --> 01:05:28.499 Benji Fisher: avoid losing that information. 552 01:05:28.790 --> 01:05:33.999 Benji Fisher: We've previously discussed this in some related issues, and I think we 553 01:05:35.710 --> 01:05:37.989 Benji Fisher: agreed that we should. 554 01:05:39.390 --> 01:05:46.179 Benji Fisher: you know, try to go by small steps, especially since the module browser is coming. 555 01:05:46.420 --> 01:05:49.240 Benji Fisher: and that will change all of this. 556 01:05:49.890 --> 01:05:54.270 Benji Fisher: but I 557 01:05:55.280 --> 01:06:02.519 Benji Fisher: I think our our consensus is that this is not the best step to be taking at this time. 558 01:06:03.510 --> 01:06:13.350 Ralf Koller: Ralph, say something really quick. Yeah, just quick. All already edited to the chat. But I think Aaron's idea is 559 01:06:13.690 --> 01:06:16.440 Ralf Koller: quite good. If you just add a filter. 560 01:06:16.750 --> 01:06:22.000 Ralf Koller: a select field installed or not installed next to the filter. 561 01:06:22.010 --> 01:06:26.820 Ralf Koller: Then you still keep the groups underneath, and 562 01:06:28.210 --> 01:06:30.720 Ralf Koller: it would be way more clear from my perspective 563 01:06:31.670 --> 01:06:33.139 Ralf Koller: in case you. 564 01:06:33.220 --> 01:06:36.869 Ralf Koller: we want to see what is installed and what is not 565 01:06:37.710 --> 01:06:39.070 Benji Fisher: right. I guess the 566 01:06:39.790 --> 01:06:41.629 Benji Fisher: the one 567 01:06:42.520 --> 01:06:49.200 Benji Fisher: point that this current issue does fix is the usability concerns with disabled checkboxes. 568 01:06:49.570 --> 01:06:53.100 Benji Fisher: But it seems to introduce a lot of other problems 569 01:06:53.280 --> 01:06:58.490 Benji Fisher: while trying to address that. So let's wrap it there because we are at the hour. 570 01:06:58.800 --> 01:07:04.520 Benji Fisher: and I know we we all have other work. We have to get to. 571 01:07:05.010 --> 01:07:09.620 Benji Fisher: So thank you all for taking the hour to discuss usability issues. 572 01:07:09.810 --> 01:07:13.830 Benji Fisher: let's try to follow up on these. And 573 01:07:14.080 --> 01:07:15.629 Benji Fisher: we'll we'll be back next week. 574 01:07:17.600 --> 01:07:18.610 Ralf Koller: Okay, you 575 01:07:18.930 --> 01:07:21.159 Simo Hellsten: thanks. A nice weekend. Thanks. 576 01:07:21.710 --> 01:07:22.660 Simo Hellsten: that's weekend.