WEBVTT 28 00:07:57.500 --> 00:08:05.249 Benji Fisher: welcome. This is the drupal usability meeting for December eighth, 2023. I'm Benji Fischer, sharing my screen and moderating. 29 00:08:05.420 --> 00:08:11.319 Benji Fisher: and also present, are some of our regulars, Ralph Kohler, Simo Helston, and Thomas Howell. 30 00:08:12.880 --> 00:08:21.259 Benji Fisher: So we thought we'd start off with this issue, which was brought up in slack couple of days ago. 31 00:08:21.430 --> 00:08:25.989 Benji Fisher: The issue number is 3, 3, 9, 9, 1, 6, one 32 00:08:26.560 --> 00:08:30.969 Benji Fisher: add cancel button to media library. Widget popup. 33 00:08:32.049 --> 00:08:39.280 Benji Fisher: so, Ralph, do you want to describe the problem, or shall I just read the 34 00:08:39.570 --> 00:08:40.690 Benji Fisher: description 35 00:08:43.240 --> 00:08:45.760 Ralf Koller: who you like, I mean, it's it's nothing 36 00:08:46.870 --> 00:08:50.320 Ralf Koller: special. It's just basically about 37 00:08:51.400 --> 00:08:56.490 Ralf Koller: the person who brought the I created the issue in regards of 38 00:08:56.540 --> 00:09:02.420 Ralf Koller: consistency suggested to add a kind of button to the dialogue modal 39 00:09:03.310 --> 00:09:15.680 Ralf Koller: for media items. cause at the moment you just have the close, but close button the X in the upper 40 00:09:15.690 --> 00:09:17.000 Ralf Koller: right corner 41 00:09:17.160 --> 00:09:20.130 Ralf Koller: to close a model. 42 00:09:20.300 --> 00:09:27.369 Ralf Koller: But the person suggested to add a cancel button as Steve Musgrave already 43 00:09:28.100 --> 00:09:34.370 Ralf Koller: commented on, Slack, the Sub Subsystem Maintainer. 44 00:09:35.270 --> 00:09:40.180 Ralf Koller: commented already on the issue in comment. Number 5. 45 00:09:40.780 --> 00:09:48.049 Benji Fisher: Okay, just Let's see if we can follow this. That is important to have a meeting field on Taxonomy 46 00:09:49.900 --> 00:09:54.420 Ralf Koller: from my point of view. Not necessarily. 47 00:09:56.340 --> 00:10:02.570 Benji Fisher: okay. I see Aaron has just joined us, so for his sake I'll paste the link again. 48 00:10:03.720 --> 00:10:05.700 Benji Fisher: Zoom chat to this 49 00:10:07.160 --> 00:10:12.689 Benji Fisher: sample site, as usual. Admin admin, are the credentials to log in 50 00:10:13.890 --> 00:10:14.560 and 51 00:10:15.860 --> 00:10:25.650 Benji Fisher: let's see. 52 00:10:27.490 --> 00:10:31.200 Benji Fisher: let me go for English English article? 53 00:10:32.730 --> 00:10:45.270 Benji Fisher: So let's remove the existing media image and try to add new one. and is this 54 00:10:45.800 --> 00:10:47.609 Benji Fisher: mobile window we're talking about? 55 00:10:47.840 --> 00:10:49.040 Ralf Koller: Yes. 56 00:10:49.600 --> 00:10:50.410 Benji Fisher: okay. 57 00:10:51.220 --> 00:10:57.559 Benji Fisher: So there's an X button in the upper right corner of the modal you can use to close 58 00:10:58.150 --> 00:11:01.250 Benji Fisher: it if I click outside. 59 00:11:01.810 --> 00:11:06.430 Benji Fisher: Clicking outside does not make it go away, I'll try the escape button. 60 00:11:06.540 --> 00:11:07.520 Benji Fisher: That works! 61 00:11:10.430 --> 00:11:14.020 Benji Fisher: But the proposal is, in addition to the 62 00:11:14.620 --> 00:11:18.069 Benji Fisher: submit button for the form insert, selected 63 00:11:18.270 --> 00:11:25.509 Benji Fisher: to add a cancel button. and let's see if we can look at the screenshot 64 00:11:26.950 --> 00:11:31.740 Benji Fisher: open imageing new tab first option. 65 00:11:32.180 --> 00:11:37.590 Benji Fisher: so this is. 66 00:11:38.260 --> 00:11:40.119 Benji Fisher: I guess, the before picture. 67 00:11:40.730 --> 00:11:44.250 Benji Fisher: We we don't have a screenshot after 68 00:11:45.590 --> 00:11:47.170 Ralf Koller: I guess we have this one. 69 00:11:50.370 --> 00:11:51.599 Benji Fisher: Is there a better one? 70 00:11:51.870 --> 00:11:53.579 Ralf Koller: Oh, I don't think so. 71 00:11:54.350 --> 00:11:55.090 Ralf Koller: Don't. 72 00:11:56.510 --> 00:12:00.810 Ralf Koller: or maybe in Number 6 there is one. 73 00:12:02.180 --> 00:12:07.389 Ralf Koller: So that looks like existing. that's the comparison. One, I forgot. Yeah, sorry. Yeah. 74 00:12:08.590 --> 00:12:22.679 Benji Fisher: so this is, I guess the 7 theme, and in addition to insert selected, which is the existing submit button, there's a cancel button. 75 00:12:23.460 --> 00:12:25.900 Benji Fisher: okay. 76 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:37.430 Benji Fisher: so this is the modal we're talking about. and we would be adding, I guess it would look different in Clara. But we'd be adding cancel button here. Any questions about 77 00:12:37.920 --> 00:12:42.279 Benji Fisher: the context problem it's trying to solve. 78 00:12:44.900 --> 00:12:47.810 Benji Fisher: Just one more way to close it. 79 00:12:48.530 --> 00:12:49.520 Ralf Koller: Yes. 80 00:12:49.740 --> 00:12:50.440 Benji Fisher: go ahead. 81 00:12:50.570 --> 00:12:58.390 Ralf Koller: Just one brief edition. If you go, could you scroll up, please. and go to add file, please. 82 00:13:01.350 --> 00:13:03.290 Ralf Koller: I'm not sure if it's in that 83 00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:07.990 Ralf Koller: in out of the box. Core. 84 00:13:08.610 --> 00:13:13.009 Ralf Koller: yep, it is that. Then that's then it's a problem. 85 00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:16.889 Ralf Koller: cause. If you now click on the close button. 86 00:13:20.650 --> 00:13:23.130 Ralf Koller: it closes completely. 87 00:13:23.900 --> 00:13:24.730 Ralf Koller: That's 88 00:13:25.510 --> 00:13:28.100 Ralf Koller: one other level of 89 00:13:28.730 --> 00:13:37.899 Ralf Koller: complexity in regards of the close or canceled button, why it's needed in the context of that model inside of a model 90 00:13:38.080 --> 00:13:40.649 Ralf Koller: context, it's sort of 91 00:13:40.730 --> 00:13:43.250 Ralf Koller: unexpected from a user's perspective. 92 00:13:44.720 --> 00:13:48.149 Ralf Koller: You don't have a way to get back to 93 00:13:49.140 --> 00:13:51.840 Ralf Koller: the modal state right before that. 94 00:13:51.990 --> 00:13:58.349 Ralf Koller: Yeah, you have to close that. You have to remove the click, the remove button. But that's not really intuitive 95 00:14:00.110 --> 00:14:01.379 Ralf Koller: from my perspective. 96 00:14:01.580 --> 00:14:10.749 Benji Fisher: Okay, I would. I would say, that's out of scope for the current issue. So there, there is a way to do it. And perhaps that particular motor wouldn't go 97 00:14:10.850 --> 00:14:14.730 Benji Fisher: should not have the standard by the second week. 98 00:14:14.910 --> 00:14:16.910 Ralf Koller: It is out of the scope, but it's 99 00:14:17.340 --> 00:14:28.659 Ralf Koller: important. And and it has to inform basically the solution for this issue. Still, to a certain degree, from my perspective. 100 00:14:28.800 --> 00:14:31.689 Simo Hellsten: maybe it could be a follow up issue for this one. 101 00:14:32.590 --> 00:14:33.250 Ralf Koller: Yep. 102 00:14:34.340 --> 00:14:38.079 Benji Fisher: yeah. It's certainly an issue certainly related just 103 00:14:38.570 --> 00:14:44.479 Benji Fisher: when when I say it's out of scope, I'm I'm basically suggesting that it should be its own issue. So follow up. 104 00:14:46.360 --> 00:14:51.900 Benji Fisher: okay, so why are 105 00:14:53.530 --> 00:15:00.549 Benji Fisher: why not add the cancel button? Shall we read through the comments on the issue? Is there you mentioned that? 106 00:15:01.490 --> 00:15:04.010 Benji Fisher: There's a comment from the Subsystem Maintainer. 107 00:15:07.910 --> 00:15:23.910 Ralf Koller: Yes, Steve Musgrave also added that on slack, he said. just for informations, as sub I mean Subsystem Maintainer mentioned on the ticket. He didn't see the reason. As there is an X so decisions is up to the Ux team. 108 00:15:24.750 --> 00:15:27.699 Ralf Koller: I think it's it's in comment. Number 5. 109 00:15:29.790 --> 00:15:31.000 Benji Fisher: Alright. 110 00:15:31.380 --> 00:15:43.750 Benji Fisher: This comment modals can be closed using the X button, as I noticed, and the escape key. I did that, too. I don't think we really use cancel buttons for modals. I'm not even sure we need them. 111 00:15:43.900 --> 00:15:52.530 Benji Fisher: This would be a good question to ask the ux team. If we want to add cancel buttons, mobiles. We might want to add them everywhere. Not just for the media library. 112 00:15:52.950 --> 00:15:54.150 Benji Fisher: Go ahead, Ralph. 113 00:15:54.260 --> 00:16:00.549 Ralf Koller: Just an addition. That's not entirely true. For example, if you go to 114 00:16:00.990 --> 00:16:09.669 Ralf Koller: the views page within the view, for example, edit a field, and there that modal has a cancel button. Actually. So 115 00:16:10.360 --> 00:16:13.280 Ralf Koller: in regards of consistency. It's not entirely true. 116 00:16:18.980 --> 00:16:24.379 Benji Fisher: So if I edit my favorite view, admin content and add a field 117 00:16:24.610 --> 00:16:29.700 Ralf Koller: or edit a field there or edge. Yeah, exactly. Then you have a cancel, but 118 00:16:29.820 --> 00:16:33.430 Ralf Koller: or an existing field you could also edit. And then 119 00:16:33.490 --> 00:16:35.160 Ralf Koller: you have also canceled. 120 00:16:40.830 --> 00:16:46.810 Benji Fisher: And I, I've been looking a lot at the the field ui recently. So they're also 121 00:16:47.400 --> 00:16:54.639 Benji Fisher: putting more forms inside modals. So this is beginning to look familiar. Go ahead, Thomas. 122 00:16:56.670 --> 00:17:14.450 Thomas Howell: Ii just wanted to note that I agree both with the fact that this is a a follow up the second level down. When you add an image is a follow up issue. But II do kind of agree that II would like to see consistency. 123 00:17:14.540 --> 00:17:28.140 Thomas Howell: And so I think that rather than this specific issue. The question that I'd like us to discuss today is whether or not we feel that there should be consistency in how the modals are operating 124 00:17:28.280 --> 00:17:40.499 Thomas Howell: and there there seems to be at least 2 paradigms. One is, if something goes down one level only. So if there was no add file. This goes down only one level. 125 00:17:41.060 --> 00:17:53.070 Thomas Howell: And do you need a cancel button? If you're only going down one level versus something that may have multiple layers beneath it, like the views instance, or the media 126 00:17:53.340 --> 00:17:56.290 Thomas Howell: So to me, that's how I would 127 00:17:56.550 --> 00:18:17.660 Thomas Howell: split. The question is like, I don't think you need cancel if something only goes one deep because the X is identical to cancel. But when you do have the possibility to go down multiple layers, cancel gives you a consistent ui all the way through that interface. And so that's just the point I'd like to make. 128 00:18:22.270 --> 00:18:27.489 Benji Fisher: Okay, so you're arguing for consistency and for 129 00:18:28.370 --> 00:18:34.560 Benji Fisher: reasonable behavior, depending on whether we have this 130 00:18:34.850 --> 00:18:37.699 Benji Fisher: nested modals or modals on modals 131 00:18:38.300 --> 00:18:42.259 Benji Fisher: generally try to avoid mobiles and mobiles. Right? 132 00:18:42.920 --> 00:18:51.239 Thomas Howell: Think, yes, but I think that it would be reasonable in any instance where you have multiple levels, that 133 00:18:51.360 --> 00:19:03.650 Thomas Howell: we behave identically throughout the the interface. That. And so from my perspective, is just making it a consistent rule. If it only goes one deep, there's no need for cancel. If it goes 134 00:19:03.820 --> 00:19:08.070 Thomas Howell: modals and modals, at least 2 layers, layers or 2 levels 135 00:19:08.140 --> 00:19:18.009 Thomas Howell: or more. Then you use cancel at all levels because you're developing a consistent pattern so that people understand canceling gets them in and out of that. Ui. 136 00:19:19.490 --> 00:19:20.640 Benji Fisher: Aaron, go ahead. 137 00:19:23.370 --> 00:19:29.789 Aaron McHale: Thanks. And yeah. So I was a little bit late. It's been a busy week and a busy day. 138 00:19:30.020 --> 00:19:34.729 Aaron McHale: So I've been kind of over the loop last couple of days. Emma also sends our apologies. 139 00:19:34.750 --> 00:19:38.120 Aaron McHale: but yeah, I just I 140 00:19:38.220 --> 00:19:51.029 Aaron McHale: I think it's, generally speaking, it's it's good to have the cancel button like, I think. For instance, the X is in the top corner. It's probably easy to miss. I think a lot of other. If we look across. 141 00:19:51.090 --> 00:20:01.609 Aaron McHale: you know, modals and other other systems, you know, operating systems, other applications. There tends to be like a cancel button, even if there's like a close button in the top, right, you know, tend to buy like a cancel button 142 00:20:01.840 --> 00:20:04.599 Aaron McHale: in the bottom. I 143 00:20:04.780 --> 00:20:28.509 Aaron McHale: what I would say at the moment is, I agree that if there is an existing pattern that does it in a particular way, we should follow that pattern. I think this is something that our our standards will definitely need to have an opinion on, and that opinion will must be backed up by research. As they all should be. So for now I wouldn't want to make like too strong of a recommendation until we actually have the research to to back it up. 144 00:20:28.510 --> 00:20:42.139 Aaron McHale: But generally I think the pattern that we tend to see and that people would expect is the cancel button, even if there is that X. So that's what I would, what I would sort of suggest. 145 00:20:43.430 --> 00:20:45.280 Benji Fisher: Okay, so more research 146 00:20:45.900 --> 00:20:48.179 towards adding the cancel button. 147 00:20:48.360 --> 00:20:49.299 Benji Fisher: Is that fair? 148 00:20:50.580 --> 00:20:51.779 Aaron McHale: Yes, I think so. 149 00:20:53.800 --> 00:20:54.590 Benji Fisher: Ralph. 150 00:20:55.750 --> 00:21:01.410 Ralf Koller: Just one brief addition in regards of Thomas's point. 151 00:21:02.870 --> 00:21:08.089 Ralf Koller: In case it's more than one step than adding a canceled button. But 152 00:21:08.670 --> 00:21:13.670 Ralf Koller: couldn't it be broken down, basically and tackled, not only 153 00:21:14.090 --> 00:21:23.509 Ralf Koller: going backwards, but also going forward. basically introducing something like oops. I post the link in the chat. 154 00:21:23.850 --> 00:21:28.790 Ralf Koller: The multi form wizard. That way. You would 155 00:21:28.800 --> 00:21:37.620 Ralf Koller: tackle for one the action buttons at the button. as well as the title for the modem as well. 156 00:21:37.940 --> 00:21:47.450 Ralf Koller: where you also communicate. It's, for example, step one step, 2, step 3, or it's adding something to the previous module or something like that. 157 00:21:48.190 --> 00:21:49.339 Ralf Koller: All those 158 00:21:50.520 --> 00:21:58.480 Ralf Koller: scenarios could be tackled in the context of that form, was it basically from my perspective? 159 00:22:00.200 --> 00:22:04.599 Benji Fisher: Okay? So just for the sake of the recording, the issue that Ralph mentioned 160 00:22:04.630 --> 00:22:09.500 Benji Fisher: is 1, 8, 8, 6, 6, 1, 6, multi-step form. Wizard. 161 00:22:09.850 --> 00:22:14.769 Benji Fisher: This is something that I think exists in. See tools. So II imagine 162 00:22:15.580 --> 00:22:18.970 Benji Fisher: the implementation being suggested here is based on that 163 00:22:19.520 --> 00:22:27.040 Benji Fisher: and and yes, that would give us a way to 164 00:22:28.070 --> 00:22:31.240 Benji Fisher: encourage consistency. If we, if we had a 165 00:22:31.890 --> 00:22:35.860 Benji Fisher: common way of implementing these multi-step forms. 166 00:22:39.900 --> 00:22:43.830 Benji Fisher: Obviously, the approach that that issue should take would 167 00:22:43.980 --> 00:22:48.140 Aaron McHale: then depend on what the Ui standards say should be done 168 00:22:48.660 --> 00:22:49.470 Benji Fisher: right? 169 00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:57.799 Benji Fisher: Another point I want to make is let's see if this works way. I expect it will. 170 00:22:58.420 --> 00:23:04.470 Benji Fisher: If I right click on this and open in the new tab. 171 00:23:06.070 --> 00:23:18.339 Benji Fisher: I can get that form outside of the modal. and if I'm not using Javascript. then clicking on that 172 00:23:20.350 --> 00:23:23.889 Benji Fisher: button link I guess it's actually a link 173 00:23:24.180 --> 00:23:32.429 Benji Fisher: will do. Do the same thing. It'll do a page load and and give me the page 174 00:23:32.710 --> 00:23:46.450 Benji Fisher: without using models. and I know that drupal used to have a policy of progressive enhancement, that everything in the admin ui 175 00:23:46.560 --> 00:23:50.359 Benji Fisher: should be usable without Javascript 176 00:23:50.690 --> 00:24:02.229 Benji Fisher: but easier to use with Javascript enabled. And I I'm not sure whether we still have that policy. Have we abandoned it? 177 00:24:02.440 --> 00:24:12.560 Benji Fisher: With the media library? Can you do all of these operations without using Javascript. If I right click here. Whoa! 178 00:24:14.170 --> 00:24:18.940 Benji Fisher: Even if I right click here, it seems to open the modal. 179 00:24:21.260 --> 00:24:29.740 Benji Fisher: I don't think you can see it, cause I still get the contextual menu. But opening. And then a new 180 00:24:30.090 --> 00:24:32.490 Benji Fisher: tab is not one of the options. 181 00:24:33.510 --> 00:24:39.450 Aaron McHale: Maybe it's maybe that's a button and not like a link like an actual button. Maybe it's something to do with it. 182 00:24:40.550 --> 00:24:41.690 Benji Fisher: I think so. 183 00:24:43.550 --> 00:24:47.200 Benji Fisher: so 184 00:24:49.080 --> 00:24:54.620 Benji Fisher: certainly many of our existing forms, like the one I looked at in Hughes 185 00:24:54.990 --> 00:25:04.390 Benji Fisher: do follow that pattern of progressive enhancement that they can be used without Javascript. and when you use it without Javascript it's 186 00:25:05.080 --> 00:25:08.210 Benji Fisher: important to have that cancel button. 187 00:25:09.680 --> 00:25:14.150 Benji Fisher: because there's no most form to dismiss 188 00:25:16.420 --> 00:25:21.890 Benji Fisher: And so I'm in favor 189 00:25:22.020 --> 00:25:30.460 Benji Fisher: of including cancel buttons consistently in every form. whether it shows up in the mobile or not. 190 00:25:35.240 --> 00:25:39.570 Benji Fisher: So remember the people who aren't using Javascript. 191 00:25:39.870 --> 00:25:47.259 Benji Fisher: Now, going back to the media library. Yeah, even though we, it seems to work only in the Mobile. 192 00:25:47.870 --> 00:25:53.359 Benji Fisher: Maybe it would be different if I actually disable Javascript for my browser. I'm I'm not sure 193 00:25:53.930 --> 00:25:58.969 Benji Fisher: but but to keep in mind the people who aren't using Javascript, who won't have the 194 00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:03.389 Benji Fisher: escape button and the little X in the upper right corner of the Modal, because they won't have a modal. 195 00:26:03.760 --> 00:26:06.469 Benji Fisher: and for their sake 196 00:26:07.510 --> 00:26:08.750 Benji Fisher: include the 197 00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:11.029 Benji Fisher: a cancel button. 198 00:26:12.880 --> 00:26:16.399 Benji Fisher: So I see Ralph and Paso 199 00:26:16.640 --> 00:26:23.660 Benji Fisher: comment. Good point. I'm getting a thumbs up from Thomas. and a thumbs up from Semo. 200 00:26:24.890 --> 00:26:29.960 Benji Fisher: Okay, so III think we have consensus. That 201 00:26:31.330 --> 00:26:34.760 Benji Fisher: we should develop 202 00:26:35.130 --> 00:26:38.609 Benji Fisher: a ui standard about this 203 00:26:39.340 --> 00:26:48.140 Benji Fisher: But in the context of the current issue, I think we, we have some consensus that adding the cancel button is a good idea. 204 00:26:53.490 --> 00:26:55.670 Aaron McHale: Yeah. And just to note, like, there's 205 00:26:56.110 --> 00:27:04.149 Aaron McHale: Ralph and I have been looking at kind of some initial workarounders. And 206 00:27:04.310 --> 00:27:08.490 Aaron McHale: the hope is that we can start to evolve and and expand and 207 00:27:08.660 --> 00:27:12.360 Aaron McHale: kind of update them. So 208 00:27:12.970 --> 00:27:22.729 Aaron McHale: we could probably mention it as part of the comment. But like, we don't need to make it as a direct follow up, I think, cause it's something that we're kind of doing separately, anyway. 209 00:27:23.350 --> 00:27:31.920 Aaron McHale: right? And we certainly don't want to block this issue on this research project that might take a long yeah, for sure. definitely, not. 210 00:27:35.730 --> 00:27:40.520 Benji Fisher: Okay. So okay. go ahead. Perfect. 211 00:27:40.670 --> 00:27:43.729 Benji Fisher: So does anyone want to volunteer to to post the comment 212 00:27:48.510 --> 00:27:49.779 Benji Fisher: or go go ahead, Eric. 213 00:27:50.220 --> 00:27:53.010 Aaron McHale: Well, sorry I was. Gonna I was gonna say that like 214 00:27:53.510 --> 00:28:00.710 Aaron McHale: No, I don't remember what I was gonna say. 215 00:28:01.080 --> 00:28:03.540 Aaron McHale: mustn't be important. 216 00:28:08.600 --> 00:28:12.400 Benji Fisher: Okay, I think I can best to comment on this one 217 00:28:13.090 --> 00:28:26.659 Benji Fisher: And before I go on to something else. you know. So sometime soon, I think we're 218 00:28:28.010 --> 00:28:34.530 Benji Fisher: going to talk about the documentation pages we have for user interface standards. 219 00:28:34.580 --> 00:28:39.300 Benji Fisher: And Aaron and Ralph started a discussion a few weeks ago on slack 220 00:28:39.790 --> 00:28:46.159 Benji Fisher: and once we have some sort of outline to look at, we wanna talk about 221 00:28:46.270 --> 00:28:48.750 Benji Fisher: rearranging them, adding to them. 222 00:28:48.930 --> 00:28:58.620 Benji Fisher: finding some standard references so that we we can't do our own research on on everything. 223 00:28:58.700 --> 00:29:02.210 Benji Fisher: Let's try to identify some 224 00:29:02.290 --> 00:29:04.380 Benji Fisher: good references for 225 00:29:05.020 --> 00:29:07.429 Benji Fisher: industry standards. 226 00:29:08.540 --> 00:29:20.720 Benji Fisher: but also next week. the Usability meeting will focus on issues from the Claro theme, because a week from today the the fifteenth 227 00:29:20.940 --> 00:29:24.640 Benji Fisher: is already scheduled as a 228 00:29:25.520 --> 00:29:31.319 Benji Fisher: a day to contribute to Claro, and maybe I can scroll up and find the link where 229 00:29:31.630 --> 00:29:33.080 Benji Fisher: that was mentioned. 230 00:29:33.830 --> 00:29:37.259 Benji Fisher: And just as as a reminder to myself. 231 00:29:37.750 --> 00:29:48.490 Benji Fisher: I'm going to have to schedule another 20 Zoom Meetings. 232 00:29:50.620 --> 00:29:53.980 Benji Fisher: I don't see where it is 233 00:29:55.240 --> 00:29:56.540 Benji Fisher: a 234 00:29:58.170 --> 00:30:01.109 Ralf Koller: I've already posted a link to that slack chat. 235 00:30:03.790 --> 00:30:05.150 Benji Fisher: But 236 00:30:06.520 --> 00:30:07.810 Benji Fisher: I'm getting the 237 00:30:09.410 --> 00:30:13.550 Benji Fisher: inconvenient user interface for following slack links. 238 00:30:13.950 --> 00:30:18.330 Benji Fisher: If you could find the link to the the the actual. 239 00:30:19.010 --> 00:30:20.340 Ralf Koller: Thank you for doing. 240 00:30:20.560 --> 00:30:22.159 Ralf Koller: I've posted it in the dread. 241 00:30:24.540 --> 00:30:26.499 Ralf Koller: the direct link to the thread. 242 00:30:27.930 --> 00:30:36.940 Ralf Koller: You mean. 1 s, yeah. I copy the direct link to the issue. Christina posted as well. 243 00:30:37.970 --> 00:30:39.659 Benji Fisher: or I suppose 244 00:30:43.170 --> 00:30:49.349 Benji Fisher: that's what I was looking for. Claro. Contribution day on December 1520, 23 245 00:30:51.210 --> 00:31:02.940 Benji Fisher: So a week from today will be discussing Clara issues. And sometime in the future we'll talk about reorganizing our 246 00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:09.060 Benji Fisher: our user interface standards. Documentation. 247 00:31:09.300 --> 00:31:11.869 Benji Fisher: Let me also. 248 00:31:13.590 --> 00:31:17.569 Benji Fisher: let's see structure. Let me go to content 249 00:31:18.450 --> 00:31:20.590 Benji Fisher: and blocks 250 00:31:21.390 --> 00:31:23.750 Benji Fisher: and add a content block. 251 00:31:25.510 --> 00:31:30.300 Benji Fisher: And I just noticed that earlier today, 252 00:31:30.360 --> 00:31:38.070 Benji Fisher: we now have 2 submit buttons, a save button, which will go back to the 253 00:31:38.620 --> 00:31:48.070 Benji Fisher: block library where I just was, and save and configure which will let me position the block, go to the 254 00:31:48.600 --> 00:31:50.299 Benji Fisher: block layout page. 255 00:31:52.890 --> 00:31:56.769 Benji Fisher: So save and configure used to be the only option 256 00:31:57.970 --> 00:32:00.940 Benji Fisher: and someone is commenting in slack 257 00:32:01.020 --> 00:32:05.890 Benji Fisher: that went in today. Yes. and was Cherry picked for 10.2? Really 258 00:32:06.150 --> 00:32:13.909 Benji Fisher: little surprised that with the Rc. Already released, that this changes going in 259 00:32:14.450 --> 00:32:23.860 Benji Fisher: so this this used to be the only option. You'd go to the configure block page where you could say which pages 260 00:32:23.960 --> 00:32:27.740 Benji Fisher: which roles which region to put it in? 261 00:32:28.730 --> 00:32:31.349 Benji Fisher: But now the 262 00:32:31.680 --> 00:32:34.339 Benji Fisher: the primary action is to 263 00:32:35.730 --> 00:32:37.990 Benji Fisher: go back to 264 00:32:38.580 --> 00:32:43.750 Benji Fisher: this page, the list of content blocks which I still call them Custom Block Library. 265 00:32:45.800 --> 00:32:49.489 Benji Fisher: Guess if I just do the quick test. Edit. 266 00:32:50.570 --> 00:32:51.330 Benji Fisher: Oh. 267 00:32:53.020 --> 00:32:55.580 Benji Fisher: the ad form and the edit form are different. 268 00:32:57.180 --> 00:33:00.120 Benji Fisher: The only option is. let's go back here. 269 00:33:05.310 --> 00:33:08.119 Aaron McHale: Yeah, maybe that's a good follow up issue, because, like 270 00:33:09.180 --> 00:33:13.709 Aaron McHale: I could see wanting to place the block from, you know, place an existing block. 271 00:33:13.850 --> 00:33:20.290 Aaron McHale: It is interesting. I remember we did talk about the issue, I believe, but it's interest. II don't remember how what are exact 272 00:33:20.540 --> 00:33:24.210 Aaron McHale: corrective recommendation was, but it's interesting that 273 00:33:24.890 --> 00:33:29.789 Aaron McHale: it did end up with save and configure cause like I would have thought that, like, save in place, would have been a more. 274 00:33:30.190 --> 00:33:35.400 Aaron McHale: a a better name for the button given. That's what you ultimately end up 275 00:33:35.950 --> 00:33:37.100 Aaron McHale: like doing. 276 00:33:38.840 --> 00:33:43.119 Benji Fisher: I was thinking that, too, and II know that you've been following this issue. 277 00:33:43.270 --> 00:33:46.870 Benji Fisher: And I assume that that had been discussed. 278 00:33:47.750 --> 00:33:54.800 Aaron McHale: Ii have a big memory of us discussing a meeting, but that's why I don't remember like what our recommendation was, and 279 00:33:55.270 --> 00:33:56.120 Aaron McHale: yes. 280 00:33:57.930 --> 00:33:59.430 Benji Fisher: Ralph, go ahead. 281 00:33:59.810 --> 00:34:06.040 Ralf Koller: The recommendation back, then, and the consensus was safe and configure. as far as I remember. 282 00:34:07.570 --> 00:34:09.389 Ralf Koller: and there is 283 00:34:09.880 --> 00:34:13.139 Ralf Koller: one to be 284 00:34:13.190 --> 00:34:17.490 Ralf Koller: written follow-up issue about adding the ability 285 00:34:18.260 --> 00:34:23.440 Ralf Koller: to add a second select field aside the select field for 286 00:34:23.730 --> 00:34:28.560 Ralf Koller: picking the region. Also that you're able to change 287 00:34:28.690 --> 00:34:30.719 Ralf Koller: the actual theme. 288 00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:39.160 Ralf Koller: your placing or configuring the plot, for that is one follow-up issue and another one that is. 289 00:34:39.960 --> 00:34:46.370 Ralf Koller: I think, already. Rtcb, at the moment. If you are on the block, layout page and place a block 290 00:34:47.020 --> 00:34:48.159 Ralf Koller: right now 291 00:34:48.270 --> 00:34:52.110 Ralf Koller: in, for example, the block region pre header 292 00:34:53.139 --> 00:35:01.659 Ralf Koller: then. Oh, it's oh, then it's already went in, because before that region was empty or 293 00:35:01.850 --> 00:35:03.320 Ralf Koller: had to be configured 294 00:35:05.160 --> 00:35:07.950 Ralf Koller: nice when that is already in. 295 00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:09.510 Benji Fisher: Really yes. 296 00:35:09.810 --> 00:35:15.789 Benji Fisher: this, this, this is a recent change that when I go to particular region and place block from there. 297 00:35:16.990 --> 00:35:29.689 Ralf Koller: Yeah, before that, it was just select as the default, and you had to select it manually, and in case you have a short working memory then. but you were at a loss. 298 00:35:34.200 --> 00:35:38.519 Benji Fisher: okay. So since we've 299 00:35:41.140 --> 00:35:46.700 Benji Fisher: talked about it. This is the issue that just went in today that we've been discussing. 300 00:35:46.840 --> 00:35:58.980 Benji Fisher: Revisit the redirect to add block form in the add block content form recording the issue. Number is 3, 3, 2, 5, 1, 6, 7, 301 00:35:59.720 --> 00:36:08.790 Benji Fisher: let me just search the page for the word configure. 302 00:36:11.070 --> 00:36:14.260 Benji Fisher: It's in the proposed resolution. 303 00:36:15.370 --> 00:36:20.770 Benji Fisher: When Aaron gave visibility review. 304 00:36:23.480 --> 00:36:26.370 Benji Fisher: we actually did consider safe in place 305 00:36:26.670 --> 00:36:29.969 Benji Fisher: and decided instead to recommend, save and configure 306 00:36:33.110 --> 00:36:38.570 Benji Fisher: based on the title of the form where we're going. 307 00:36:43.600 --> 00:37:03.219 Aaron McHale: Yeah, maybe maybe we should have taken a more like holistic look and said, Well, actually, should that form that you're going to be changed from configure to place because the button on the list. But I realize also the button on the like. The list for you choose blocks on the region. Page like has the but the link, the button tags. There is place block. 308 00:37:03.550 --> 00:37:04.590 Aaron McHale: So I'm like 309 00:37:05.920 --> 00:37:12.900 Aaron McHale: kind of regret that we've came to that recommendation. Oh, well. 310 00:37:15.330 --> 00:37:21.640 Benji Fisher: this is something. Again, we're like, let's say we have a Ui standard that says something to the effect of 311 00:37:21.730 --> 00:37:51.110 Aaron McHale: Okay, like the forms and button text should be consistent like. If you click about. This is one thing, you should go to a form that says the same thing so like that, I think, could then start a thing of Oh, you know, hit this buttons, this place the form should probably also say Place! And then like, Oh, hey! This buttons to save and configure. Well, we should change it to save in place then, so I will probably go that direction rather than directly contra, to try to indirectly contradict a previous recommendation rather than us directly contradicting it, I think, is maybe a more tactful way of doing it, but 312 00:37:51.330 --> 00:37:55.499 Aaron McHale: that's only if everybody agrees that we should pre contradict what we previously recommended. 313 00:37:56.110 --> 00:38:08.240 Benji Fisher: So let let's see it. It seems to depend on whether you're adding in a new block or an existing one. So if I want to add a block, I click place, block the form says, place block at the top. 314 00:38:09.330 --> 00:38:16.550 Benji Fisher: All of these operations say place block. and then I hit configure block 315 00:38:16.900 --> 00:38:21.300 Benji Fisher: whereas I guess maybe maybe I should have 316 00:38:21.520 --> 00:38:22.700 Benji Fisher: actually done that. 317 00:38:24.770 --> 00:38:25.710 Benji Fisher: save it. 318 00:38:26.870 --> 00:38:29.260 Benji Fisher: And now that it's there 319 00:38:29.270 --> 00:38:31.910 Benji Fisher: I have the link saying, Configure 320 00:38:33.670 --> 00:38:41.870 Benji Fisher: Oh, and if this doesn't open in photo. although it's the same form, not no longer in the modal. 321 00:38:41.920 --> 00:38:43.590 Benji Fisher: And and now 322 00:38:43.630 --> 00:38:51.260 Benji Fisher: I clicked a button that said configure, and it went to configure Block. So that's a difference between adding a new one and editing an existing one. 323 00:38:52.100 --> 00:38:53.870 Benji Fisher: Go ahead, Ralph. 324 00:38:55.300 --> 00:38:57.620 Ralf Koller: but just one addition. 325 00:38:58.820 --> 00:39:01.220 Ralf Koller: If you would be able only 326 00:39:01.290 --> 00:39:10.959 Ralf Koller: to select into which region block is placed, then place a block would be okay. But I think one of the reasoning behind 327 00:39:11.060 --> 00:39:18.180 Ralf Koller: safe and configure in a concept of adding up, creating or adding a blog was also, you're also able 328 00:39:18.590 --> 00:39:27.249 Ralf Koller: to change and set the visibility settings. And that way it isn't only about placing a block, but it's basically configuring it. 329 00:39:27.450 --> 00:39:34.199 Ralf Koller: But, on the other hand, I agree in regards of Aaron's recommendation and suggestion. But 330 00:39:34.700 --> 00:39:43.110 Ralf Koller: it's also in aggressive consistency, problematic in on the block layout page because they're having a place. 331 00:39:43.160 --> 00:39:44.520 Ralf Koller: Block button 332 00:39:44.640 --> 00:39:55.919 Ralf Koller: makes sort of sense cause configure without having an actual button instead, the other option might be just add a button or something like that, but still 333 00:39:56.730 --> 00:40:04.559 Ralf Koller: the page itself is not only about placing a button, but also the visibility setting and configuring them. So 334 00:40:04.750 --> 00:40:09.029 Ralf Koller: it's not that straightforward in that regard from my perspective. 335 00:40:09.270 --> 00:40:17.190 Benji Fisher: So I would say that visibility settings are also about placing a block, placing a block on which page. 336 00:40:17.300 --> 00:40:20.470 Benji Fisher: as opposed to the region which says, where on the page. 337 00:40:24.720 --> 00:40:34.509 Aaron McHale: Yeah, because you can have 2 blocks placed, and you can have. You can independently set the visibility settings for each instance of the block. Let's say 338 00:40:34.550 --> 00:40:44.790 Aaron McHale: so. You could have 2 custom, like the same custom block in the header and in the future, and you and for one in the header you could say, only show this to login users. 339 00:40:44.920 --> 00:40:53.299 Aaron McHale: and you could have the exact same block placed in the footer and say, Show this to everyone. So, even though, like visibility settings. And this is just like 340 00:40:53.480 --> 00:41:04.689 Aaron McHale: III suppose, in a way that's like an indirect side effect of how our configuration system works. I don't know if it was like intentional, but it's a nice nice to have thing that we have. 341 00:41:05.180 --> 00:41:06.810 Aaron McHale: so I think it's like 342 00:41:07.300 --> 00:41:31.520 Aaron McHale: that. This, yeah, I will give the engine so kind of relates to placing. I think the the the thing we can look at with this is, how do? What do we do for other in other places like we have the concept of adding and editing. So if you like, add a media item or a node, you're, you know, the form is, talks about adding, whereas if you're making changes, the form talks about editing and we actually we want, I think we were trying to like. 343 00:41:31.640 --> 00:41:40.490 Aaron McHale: like as far as possible, not use the word configure. or maybe we were. Maybe we were trying to not use the word set things I forget. But 344 00:41:41.560 --> 00:41:49.960 Aaron McHale: I think like placing is a good term, for when you're adding it so in the context of like the custom block side of things. 345 00:41:50.040 --> 00:42:00.920 Aaron McHale: The button on the custom platform. I think like having a save in place always makes sense, because you're never from there you're never editing an existing instance, whereas, like. 346 00:42:01.370 --> 00:42:13.219 Aaron McHale: when the configure link or the configure button maybe that should be called edit, because that's what we move more consistently, and then the form. We then say, you know your you know edit name of 347 00:42:13.820 --> 00:42:19.569 Aaron McHale: instance, whatever it is. And then that would also be consistent with like node and media, and whatever else. 348 00:42:27.270 --> 00:42:29.300 Benji Fisher: Yeah, I also think 349 00:42:30.650 --> 00:42:37.220 Benji Fisher: there's no way I don't see any way from this page to ed edit the 350 00:42:37.750 --> 00:42:39.000 Benji Fisher: custom plug. 351 00:42:39.770 --> 00:42:43.570 Benji Fisher: Oh, what I also wanted to point out that 352 00:42:44.040 --> 00:42:54.580 Benji Fisher: although most of the form is devoted to visibility in region which, as I said, could be considered place, there's also the display title, checkbox. There's the the actual title. 353 00:42:55.040 --> 00:43:01.760 Benji Fisher: and then it doesn't come up for content blocks. But let's find something from views. 354 00:43:02.330 --> 00:43:13.179 Benji Fisher: there can be other configuration, like the number of items per block. whether to override the title 355 00:43:16.410 --> 00:43:17.690 Benji Fisher: So 356 00:43:19.330 --> 00:43:22.609 Benji Fisher: so the configuration form is not all about placement. 357 00:43:23.150 --> 00:43:25.990 Benji Fisher: although it's largely by placement. Aaron, go ahead. 358 00:43:27.720 --> 00:43:29.410 Aaron McHale: I think that's an old hand. 359 00:43:30.920 --> 00:43:31.590 Benji Fisher: Okay. 360 00:43:32.580 --> 00:43:47.049 Benji Fisher: I guess maybe 361 00:43:49.300 --> 00:43:52.149 Benji Fisher: you'll indulge me for a minute. 362 00:43:52.790 --> 00:43:59.079 Benji Fisher: we've talked about some of the recent changes to 363 00:43:59.440 --> 00:44:00.880 Benji Fisher: field System 364 00:44:02.240 --> 00:44:03.630 Benji Fisher: field ui 365 00:44:07.190 --> 00:44:08.690 Benji Fisher: at the moment. 366 00:44:09.630 --> 00:44:17.539 Benji Fisher: If I have an existing field like tags on the article content type that I want to also add to the page content type. 367 00:44:17.650 --> 00:44:21.469 Benji Fisher: I click on reuse in existing field, and I get this modal 368 00:44:22.400 --> 00:44:26.899 Benji Fisher: and where is tags. 369 00:44:28.250 --> 00:44:29.970 Benji Fisher: I guess. 370 00:44:32.380 --> 00:44:33.370 Benji Fisher: Here we go. 371 00:44:33.730 --> 00:44:34.520 Thank you. 372 00:44:34.710 --> 00:44:45.259 Benji Fisher: reuse that. But anyway, the point is, it comes up in a modal window and then sends me back to this configuration page which is not in a modal. 373 00:44:46.700 --> 00:44:52.859 Benji Fisher: whereas if I click on, create new fields, it does not open in a modal. It gives me this 374 00:44:53.130 --> 00:44:54.830 Benji Fisher: form that we've been 375 00:44:56.200 --> 00:45:00.379 Benji Fisher: we've we've already discussed at length, and how 376 00:45:00.830 --> 00:45:02.270 Benji Fisher: on 377 00:45:02.540 --> 00:45:09.279 Benji Fisher: on a large screen, like I currently have. You see this, these options come up at the bottom of the page. But 378 00:45:09.700 --> 00:45:19.960 Benji Fisher: if you have more options in this grid or smaller screen. you might click on that and and not see any effect, which was a serious problem. 379 00:45:22.030 --> 00:45:29.879 Benji Fisher: But I just recently noticed the inconsistency that one of these 2 buttons opens in a mobile and the other doesn't, which I really don't like. 380 00:45:39.900 --> 00:45:41.629 Benji Fisher: All right, let's 381 00:45:43.210 --> 00:45:49.160 Benji Fisher: go back to the issue from meeting. We have almost 20 min left. 382 00:45:50.260 --> 00:45:55.230 Benji Fisher: Are there any of these issues that look like we could 383 00:45:56.320 --> 00:45:59.249 Benji Fisher: productively talk about them for 15 min. 384 00:46:18.360 --> 00:46:19.659 Benji Fisher: How about this one? 385 00:46:22.080 --> 00:46:31.890 Benji Fisher: Since I'm not hearing any other suggestions near near the bottom of the list. It's issue 3, 2, 6, 2, 9, 3, 5, 386 00:46:32.440 --> 00:46:36.780 Benji Fisher: link, field validation constraints. Don't give enough detail. 387 00:46:37.930 --> 00:46:43.390 Benji Fisher: and what do we have? 388 00:46:43.500 --> 00:46:49.609 Benji Fisher: There are already 40 comments on it. So it's obviously not too simple. 389 00:46:50.190 --> 00:46:55.549 Benji Fisher: is it tagged for usability overview? No. 390 00:46:57.270 --> 00:46:58.970 Ralf Koller: no. 391 00:47:04.530 --> 00:47:09.430 Benji Fisher: So 3 of the validation constraints for link fields give the error message. 392 00:47:09.980 --> 00:47:12.650 Benji Fisher: path. Uri is invalid 393 00:47:13.730 --> 00:47:20.670 Benji Fisher: link, not existing. Internal constraint. Validator catches 3 different kinds of exception which all produce this message. 394 00:47:21.380 --> 00:47:28.789 Benji Fisher: We'll type. Constraint, validator handles to different errors. Link is internal, but only externals louder, vice versa. 395 00:47:29.260 --> 00:47:32.629 Benji Fisher: but only shows this message for both. 396 00:47:33.310 --> 00:47:38.079 Benji Fisher: That makes it difficult to figure out what is wrong with the field value 397 00:47:39.180 --> 00:47:43.909 Benji Fisher: steps to reproduce would be nice. 398 00:47:45.460 --> 00:47:48.589 Benji Fisher: but I think we can probably 399 00:47:49.370 --> 00:47:51.969 Benji Fisher: get an idea of what's going on here? 400 00:47:52.260 --> 00:48:02.189 Benji Fisher: let's see, does the article content type have any 401 00:48:03.550 --> 00:48:04.680 Benji Fisher: links? 402 00:48:06.570 --> 00:48:08.430 Benji Fisher: No, it doesn't. But we can 403 00:48:10.840 --> 00:48:12.210 new one 404 00:48:18.500 --> 00:48:20.280 Benji Fisher: do here 405 00:48:26.750 --> 00:48:31.040 and there are a lot of options when adding a link field, you can say 406 00:48:31.140 --> 00:48:36.220 Benji Fisher: only internal links, only external links. or about either one. 407 00:48:37.250 --> 00:48:42.099 Benji Fisher: let's try external links 408 00:48:46.360 --> 00:48:50.500 Benji Fisher: save settings. and then 409 00:48:52.120 --> 00:49:01.800 Benji Fisher: let me edit a an article, Aaron. No, that's I'm sorry I still have this little zoom notification that you raised your hand 10 min ago. 410 00:49:02.330 --> 00:49:07.320 Benji Fisher: yeah, article page. 411 00:49:15.170 --> 00:49:16.650 Benji Fisher: And 412 00:49:19.270 --> 00:49:21.360 Benji Fisher: so if I try to put 413 00:49:21.530 --> 00:49:24.280 Benji Fisher: an internal page like no, add 414 00:49:25.280 --> 00:49:27.950 Benji Fisher: text content. 415 00:49:29.200 --> 00:49:36.470 Benji Fisher: Try to save. I configured it to show only external links. So I should get the error message. Please enter a yeah. URL. 416 00:49:39.540 --> 00:49:41.889 Benji Fisher: So I got this to 417 00:49:42.510 --> 00:49:43.830 Benji Fisher: validation. 418 00:49:44.290 --> 00:49:47.309 Benji Fisher: Alright. So let me enter 419 00:49:48.090 --> 00:49:52.649 Benji Fisher: Ftp. Colon slash, slash, example.com. 420 00:49:55.600 --> 00:49:57.339 Benji Fisher: Will I get the same message? 421 00:50:01.200 --> 00:50:05.880 Benji Fisher: Interesting? It went ahead and saved it. That's not what I was expecting. 422 00:50:06.480 --> 00:50:10.019 Benji Fisher: I'm not sure how to 423 00:50:10.100 --> 00:50:19.190 Benji Fisher: trigger these errors that this is talking about. As I said. steps to reproduce on the issue would would be helpful. 424 00:50:19.740 --> 00:50:33.990 Benji Fisher: Thomas. 425 00:50:35.080 --> 00:50:40.580 Thomas Howell: are we allowed to send it back and just make that request. Please provide steps to reproduce. 426 00:50:41.400 --> 00:50:51.049 Benji Fisher: yes, we we could. What is the current status? It's already needs work. 427 00:50:51.570 --> 00:50:56.479 Benji Fisher: So we so we wouldn't be changing the status back to needs work. It's already there. 428 00:50:56.680 --> 00:51:00.350 Benji Fisher: We could certainly post a comment and add the 429 00:51:00.780 --> 00:51:04.740 Benji Fisher: issue tags that it needs an issue. Summary update. 430 00:51:05.220 --> 00:51:18.510 Aaron McHale: yeah, not actually, we have quite a number of issues in the queue that are sitting as needs work. maybe it's not a bad idea to just go through and see 431 00:51:19.340 --> 00:51:20.889 Aaron McHale: for the ones that need work. 432 00:51:21.070 --> 00:51:36.210 Aaron McHale: Is there any? Are they, you know? Can we just say, if it's not ready to review, can we just say on it, Hey, this is needs needs an update, needs screenshots. Then put it to needs review, you know. That might that might shorten our cue significantly. 433 00:51:37.460 --> 00:51:51.670 Benji Fisher: you know, issues go back and forth between needs work and needs review. So you're you're not suggesting that we wholesale. Remove the usability. 434 00:51:52.130 --> 00:52:11.559 Aaron McHale: No, no, not not remove the tag. I'm just saying, like the queue that we have on our issue summaries for our meetings. You know that that like queue, like that list of issues by number, those have been setting. It needs work for some time, I believe so. It's like, if they're just just if they're not ready to review like, maybe we should just take them off the list, you know. 435 00:52:13.610 --> 00:52:20.000 Benji Fisher: sure. 436 00:52:21.610 --> 00:52:44.939 Aaron McHale: but just take them off this list. Not not. Remove the tag. Oh, yeah, not remove the tag, because it's important to keep the tag. But like, just if yeah, we could just say, for if there's say, some of those are like, Okay, well, there's nothing for us to review yet, or like it's it's clearly needs some. We, you know, we could just say as Thomas said, Hey, can we get some screenshots? And then. 437 00:52:45.100 --> 00:52:51.020 Aaron McHale: you know, and then, when it's ready, we can. It can be put back to needs review again. 438 00:52:52.800 --> 00:52:56.560 Benji Fisher: Sure, that's that's probably good idea to do. Go ahead, Thomas. 439 00:52:57.110 --> 00:53:11.750 Thomas Howell: Ii didn't actually share my motivation for it. My motivation is, I'd hate for us to spend a lot of time on something based upon our own assumptions. When our assumptions were wrong. So that's II tend to wanna have all the boxes checked 440 00:53:11.780 --> 00:53:15.540 so that we avoid wasting our time and their time. 441 00:53:17.100 --> 00:53:19.840 Benji Fisher: Yeah. And in fact. 442 00:53:23.290 --> 00:53:31.159 Benji Fisher: go back to that issue and up. I have to be careful not to save this comment. I just want to 443 00:53:32.890 --> 00:53:36.890 Benji Fisher: paste it in. I have this standard comment. 444 00:53:37.220 --> 00:53:44.329 Benji Fisher: and I should probably save it somewhere where other people can use it too, and and perhaps 445 00:53:45.430 --> 00:53:56.680 Benji Fisher: improve on it. So preview not save and we could use something like this for 446 00:53:57.220 --> 00:54:06.929 Benji Fisher: for the job that Aaron suggested. When you tag an issue for usability review, please make it easy for the Usability team to review the issue. Update issue. Summary. 447 00:54:07.130 --> 00:54:17.460 Benji Fisher: and oh, yeah, this. This is a problem with previews on drupal.org. This is actually a bulleted list, or maybe a numbered list. But it 448 00:54:17.550 --> 00:54:28.630 Benji Fisher: that doesn't show up proposed resolution section should describe all the changes made in the issue. User interface changes should show the existing ui and the proposed ui 449 00:54:29.100 --> 00:54:36.689 Benji Fisher: most of the time. I prefer to have plain text in the proposed resolution section and screenshots and User Interfaces Section. 450 00:54:37.720 --> 00:54:49.650 Benji Fisher: You can also attend the weekly instability meeting to present an issue. I am adding the tag for an issue summary Update and setting the status to neat's work. So 451 00:54:50.170 --> 00:54:53.040 Benji Fisher: something like that comment, I think. 452 00:54:53.660 --> 00:54:57.280 Benji Fisher: but is is what you have in mind. Right? Aaron. 453 00:54:58.080 --> 00:55:00.889 Aaron McHale: Yeah, that's exactly right. And 454 00:55:01.360 --> 00:55:08.809 Aaron McHale: it does make me think like, should we only have like? We only know of one tag that I'm aware, for, like Usability review. But 455 00:55:08.960 --> 00:55:12.500 Aaron McHale: you know, like it wouldn't hurt to have a tag that's like. 456 00:55:13.480 --> 00:55:28.710 Aaron McHale: you know, like the needs review queue tag that's being used like something like usability review, queue, or something that can be that can easily be added and removed from issues as and when the review is needed, and that way rather than us, like tracking a list 457 00:55:28.740 --> 00:55:33.409 Aaron McHale: in issue summaries. Maybe that's a slightly better way to cause. Then we can just filter by. 458 00:55:33.530 --> 00:55:41.440 Aaron McHale: You know, when we're looking at issues to bring up that meeting we can just say, Okay, let's filter by that tag for things that are needs review. And then. 459 00:55:41.890 --> 00:55:54.669 Aaron McHale: you know, that's that might be an interesting idea that said there's probably like other things, we could change about the process. And I feel like I'm about to open like a can of worms here. So maybe we should show that can. For now, while we're, you know. 460 00:55:54.900 --> 00:55:57.989 Aaron McHale: 5 min before the end of the meeting. 461 00:55:58.100 --> 00:56:00.780 Benji Fisher: But we we do have this link 462 00:56:01.510 --> 00:56:02.400 Benji Fisher: and 463 00:56:02.700 --> 00:56:06.760 Benji Fisher: in the summary for our issues that shows the queue 464 00:56:07.550 --> 00:56:16.189 Benji Fisher: it includes both Rtbc and needs review issues. It's not just people core. 465 00:56:16.680 --> 00:56:18.889 Benji Fisher: and if we're 466 00:56:19.900 --> 00:56:23.210 Aaron McHale: ever looking for issues, actually, yeah. 467 00:56:24.750 --> 00:56:36.310 Aaron McHale: I think that's the thing is like, cause we we wanna have a tag that says this, you know, this is being flagged as a needs user review. And that tag like this can stay there regardless of the status. But 468 00:56:36.630 --> 00:56:57.749 Aaron McHale: I feel like then we need that like extra tag. That's like the definitive list that that's added at the point where it's like, okay, this is now ready for the attention of the group like it has screenshots. It has a summary update, it's ready. It's in a state where the group's ready. And if we, if we add it, if it's added by somebody, and we don't think it's ready. We can just remove the tag. 469 00:56:58.040 --> 00:57:08.969 Aaron McHale: stand it back. And then that way, like, because issues that have this tag. Even if we filter by, needs review. they might go, needs review, because, like there is a patch 470 00:57:09.530 --> 00:57:13.830 Aaron McHale: and it goes back to needs work. But it might not be actually be ready for 471 00:57:13.920 --> 00:57:16.240 Aaron McHale: us to review if that makes sense. 472 00:57:19.030 --> 00:57:29.050 Benji Fisher: Well, II don't think we need new tag for that. We can use the one we've we've been using. And and we just what we have to do the work of of adding that 473 00:57:29.350 --> 00:57:31.059 Benji Fisher: comment. We were discussing 474 00:57:31.760 --> 00:57:37.199 Benji Fisher: to the issues that have requested a usability review. 475 00:57:37.640 --> 00:57:38.840 Benji Fisher: But don't. 476 00:57:40.910 --> 00:57:42.060 Aaron McHale: right 477 00:57:42.690 --> 00:57:44.690 Benji Fisher: haven't made it easy for us. 478 00:57:51.100 --> 00:58:01.960 Simo Hellsten: How about issues that kind of I'm thinking there is no s like, it needs usability advice. So that could be something that people. 479 00:58:02.000 --> 00:58:09.269 Simo Hellsten: or maybe like tag when there is usability issues. And that direction of work is not clear. 480 00:58:13.230 --> 00:58:13.940 Benji Fisher: Huh? 481 00:58:17.130 --> 00:58:18.990 Aaron McHale: Like, isn't that kind of what the 482 00:58:20.850 --> 00:58:25.549 Aaron McHale: I guess that's kind of what the the current tag does also, though. But that's why I'm saying. 483 00:58:26.840 --> 00:58:39.690 Aaron McHale: maybe maybe what I'm saying is like a tag that's like huge, like queued for review, like meeting review or something that indicates that. Okay, this issue is now in a position where 484 00:58:40.370 --> 00:58:46.089 Aaron McHale: it it can be brought up at a meeting cause. If you take this list as an example like these issues. 485 00:58:46.330 --> 00:58:54.320 Aaron McHale: like, maybe they can be brought up in a meeting. Maybe we go through. And we say, Oh, actually, you know, like you said needs screenshots, or whatever we put it back to needs work. 486 00:58:54.860 --> 00:59:00.370 Aaron McHale: But maybe there's like other things that also need to be fixed. So like somebody puts a batch in each review. 487 00:59:00.640 --> 00:59:10.509 Aaron McHale: But it shows up on this list again. But it we might then go in and say, Oh, actually, it's it'll it still needs screenshots again. But we don't want to take out the Usability Review tag, because. 488 00:59:10.850 --> 00:59:12.690 Aaron McHale: like that may have been added 489 00:59:12.920 --> 00:59:17.900 Aaron McHale: further up, and maybe we still want us this list to be able to see 490 00:59:18.590 --> 00:59:20.099 Aaron McHale: issues that are 491 00:59:20.980 --> 00:59:34.919 Aaron McHale: like that might be that that that have the impact usability. Maybe it's just that, like, I don't know. Maybe maybe, like assumes that maybe it's like, maybe we need a broader tag for for issues that just need like 492 00:59:35.060 --> 00:59:38.360 Aaron McHale: input, and maybe the review tag is like more 493 00:59:39.190 --> 00:59:44.179 Aaron McHale: defined. I'm not. Honestly, I'm not sure. I'm just kinda like brainstorming right now. 494 00:59:45.040 --> 00:59:46.540 Benji Fisher: Go ahead, Thomas. 495 00:59:47.270 --> 01:00:12.599 Thomas Howell: II I'm not sure I wanna express this, but I would like us. III didn't realize that other view was there, and looking back to see things that haven't been comment on in over 4 years, or an issue related to 7. For instance. I feel like procedurally, it would be nice to make this more usable, because this is 496 01:00:12.760 --> 01:00:15.939 Thomas Howell: more easily visible to the community. 497 01:00:16.080 --> 01:00:40.000 Thomas Howell: And if we made this part of our work flow for how we're working on things, and we can move things into this list. But however this is set up doing it in a way that makes it manageable, and getting things on and off this list, might help us be more effective in addressing the most urgent things rather than 498 01:00:40.400 --> 01:00:56.029 Thomas Howell: only I'm I'm not saying we should exclude things that people are really interested in. But I feel like a lot of times. It's whatever catches someone. Someone's eye is what we talk about in these meetings rather than necessarily things that may relate to drupal. 499 01:00:56.040 --> 01:00:58.769 Thomas Howell: or like the ad canceled. But like 500 01:00:59.010 --> 01:01:09.640 Thomas Howell: picking the things that we really want, we feel we need to get through. And I hate the idea that we have in a backlog things that haven't been looked at or touched in 4 years, that just that 501 01:01:09.770 --> 01:01:13.860 Thomas Howell: I'm I'm very surprised. I did not know. There were things that were this old on here. 502 01:01:15.400 --> 01:01:29.470 Benji Fisher: truthful, truthful issues sometimes go forever. And and and part of the problem is that no one really wants to close an issue as won't fix, because 503 01:01:29.570 --> 01:01:32.729 Benji Fisher: you know well, maybe someone wants to work on it. 504 01:01:33.100 --> 01:01:38.109 Benji Fisher: Yeah, there there are. It is a problem that there are lots of issues that that 505 01:01:38.140 --> 01:01:40.400 Benji Fisher: have been sitting around for a long time. 506 01:01:40.700 --> 01:01:48.840 Benji Fisher: We're almost at the end of the hour. remember, in the issue tags field. There's this link 507 01:01:49.070 --> 01:01:53.090 Benji Fisher: to the issue. Tag guidelines and 508 01:01:53.230 --> 01:01:53.910 and 509 01:01:54.650 --> 01:01:59.600 Benji Fisher: oh. 510 01:01:59.700 --> 01:02:01.439 Benji Fisher: where is the list? 511 01:02:06.620 --> 01:02:07.629 Benji Fisher: Here we go. 512 01:02:09.180 --> 01:02:10.879 Benji Fisher: Follow this list. 513 01:02:11.520 --> 01:02:19.100 Benji Fisher: and so we have an official definition of what it means. 514 01:02:20.500 --> 01:02:25.430 Benji Fisher: I should just search the page instead of scrolling. But here we go needs feasibility. Review. 515 01:02:25.980 --> 01:02:30.080 Benji Fisher: At. Oh, this is badly formatted. 516 01:02:30.290 --> 01:02:36.340 Benji Fisher: so this is actually a table 517 01:02:37.530 --> 01:02:47.649 Benji Fisher: used to alert the usability topic maintainer that an issue significantly affects or has the potential to affect the usability of drupal, and their sign-off is needed 518 01:02:48.100 --> 01:02:51.529 Benji Fisher: when adding this tag, make it easy to review the issue. 519 01:02:52.170 --> 01:02:56.019 Benji Fisher: Oh, this is based on the the text that I just use. 520 01:02:56.420 --> 01:03:02.850 Benji Fisher: Make sure the issue summary describes the problem and the proposed solutions. Screenshots usually help a lot 521 01:03:03.850 --> 01:03:08.699 Benji Fisher: to get sign off on issues with this tag post about them in the Ux Channel 522 01:03:08.790 --> 01:03:12.019 Benji Fisher: and or attend a ux meeting to demo the Patch 523 01:03:13.590 --> 01:03:23.629 Benji Fisher: if an issue represents a significant new feature, ui change or change to the general user experience of drupal use needs product manager review instead. 524 01:03:24.710 --> 01:03:29.629 Benji Fisher: so that's that's the current description. 525 01:03:29.930 --> 01:03:39.760 Benji Fisher: Ralph, in slack, posted a link to the oldest usability issue, or the oldest issue with that tag which 526 01:03:40.020 --> 01:03:42.159 Benji Fisher: has been waiting for 5 years. 527 01:03:42.730 --> 01:03:44.939 Benji Fisher: And Thomas, go ahead 528 01:03:45.520 --> 01:03:49.129 Thomas Howell: just very briefly, and I think that 529 01:03:49.270 --> 01:04:04.519 Thomas Howell: I I'm seeing what Aaron was mentioning, that there are 2 use cases. Sometimes people just want comments from us rather than a full review and needs usability. Review sounds like the queue of work. We 530 01:04:04.550 --> 01:04:15.180 Thomas Howell: that people are block where we are a blocker versus someone just saying, Hey, can you give us a comment or something? And II can see how those are 2 different 531 01:04:15.450 --> 01:04:18.710 Thomas Howell: tags or 2 different requests for us. 532 01:04:19.240 --> 01:04:25.219 Thomas Howell: I'm a tiny bit worried about how buried this list was. 533 01:04:25.720 --> 01:04:29.500 Thomas Howell: In terms of how most people working with issues 534 01:04:29.760 --> 01:04:44.369 Thomas Howell: like it took you a bit, and you knew this existed. I'm concerned that people don't know this exists, and they're just using a very small subset of tags because of the complexity, and that's I don't know how to address that, but that is a concern with 535 01:04:44.470 --> 01:04:46.449 Thomas Howell: anything that we're talking about. 536 01:04:47.250 --> 01:04:51.700 Benji Fisher: Maybe we could talk about that usability group. Me, too. 537 01:04:52.810 --> 01:05:02.500 Benji Fisher: Okay, we're we're already minute over time route mentions in the chat he suggests as a name for the second tag needs ux input. 538 01:05:02.550 --> 01:05:06.320 Benji Fisher: but let's so let's wrap the discussion here. 539 01:05:07.130 --> 01:05:08.330 And 540 01:05:08.570 --> 01:05:20.319 Benji Fisher: and I guess my feeling is that the way to manage the queue is for interested people, which includes us to take the trouble to look at an issue. See what 541 01:05:21.240 --> 01:05:25.630 Benji Fisher: needs usability about it, and and then bring it up at the meeting. So it 542 01:05:25.700 --> 01:05:27.290 Benji Fisher: it takes some some time 543 01:05:27.510 --> 01:05:30.589 Benji Fisher: in preparation for the meeting to make that happen. 544 01:05:30.760 --> 01:05:33.989 Again next week we'll be looking at Clara issues. 545 01:05:34.100 --> 01:05:42.870 Benji Fisher: and I'm hoping that Christina or someone else will be preparing some issues for us to look at. So 546 01:05:42.910 --> 01:05:45.449 Benji Fisher: see you then, I hope and thanks for coming today. 547 01:05:46.020 --> 01:05:47.250 Aaron McHale: Thanks. Everyone. 548 01:05:47.320 --> 01:05:50.720 Ralf Koller: Thanks. Benji. Thanks. Everyone, thanks everyone, and a nice weekend 549 01:05:51.550 --> 01:05:52.340 Aaron McHale: aye. 550 01:05:52.930 --> 01:05:54.640 Simo Hellsten: have a nice weekend, but.