WEBVTT 45 00:06:06.260 --> 00:06:13.110 benji: welcome. This is the truthful usability meeting for February twenty-third, 2024, and Benji Fisher moderating 46 00:06:13.280 --> 00:06:22.140 benji: also. Here are Ralph Koehler, who's sharing a screen and will start off the discussion. Aaron Mikhail, Simo Helston, and Scott. Go ahead, Ralph. 47 00:06:23.430 --> 00:06:34.390 Ralf Koller: The first issue we are looking at is number 3420356 at link to update module documentation about installer settings. 48 00:06:34.410 --> 00:06:38.649 Ralf Koller: It's basically I just 49 00:06:38.980 --> 00:06:42.289 Ralf Koller: demonstrate quickly in the installer. 50 00:06:42.880 --> 00:06:45.789 Ralf Koller: Let's go through which standard 51 00:06:50.090 --> 00:06:53.670 Ralf Koller: it is basically adding a link. 52 00:06:53.720 --> 00:06:55.410 Ralf Koller: The documentations page. 53 00:06:58.290 --> 00:07:02.229 Ralf Koller: as far as I understood. 54 00:07:04.830 --> 00:07:09.459 Ralf Koller: there is no change to the wording itself. 55 00:07:12.780 --> 00:07:15.220 Ralf Koller: And yeah, if you go there. 56 00:07:18.910 --> 00:07:23.470 Ralf Koller: you're forwarded to the documentation page whether 57 00:07:25.480 --> 00:07:28.219 Ralf Koller: most of the changes got added 58 00:07:31.050 --> 00:07:32.520 Ralf Koller: any questions. 59 00:07:37.470 --> 00:07:49.800 benji: Yes, So I guess there's a longstanding issue to have increased to collect in more information about how users 60 00:07:50.380 --> 00:07:58.129 benji: are using enabling core modules and such. And this is not that, or or is it? 61 00:07:59.160 --> 00:08:07.519 benji: Nope, this is just about notifying users, by the way, it already works about the information collected by the updates module. 62 00:08:07.860 --> 00:08:10.359 Ralf Koller: Yep, and 63 00:08:10.930 --> 00:08:18.159 Ralf Koller: about the functioning behind those checkboxes. That is basically explained on that documentation documentations. Page. Now. 64 00:08:19.470 --> 00:08:22.530 Ralf Koller: what is actually happening behind the scenes there. 65 00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:28.249 benji: and can you go back to your site? So the 66 00:08:29.180 --> 00:08:34.260 benji: so this is when you're this is after the site is installed. 67 00:08:35.929 --> 00:08:37.569 benji: or or is this the 68 00:08:39.330 --> 00:08:44.260 benji: right. So it's after the outside is installed. And when you're running the update module. 69 00:08:45.670 --> 00:08:50.209 benji: And this is the page for the update module. And 70 00:08:53.200 --> 00:08:58.919 benji: and that section didn't used to be there at all, did it? The update notification section. 71 00:08:59.460 --> 00:09:05.050 benji: really. Okay, it was just the link that is added to there. Okay. 72 00:09:06.650 --> 00:09:10.480 benji: And I see that 73 00:09:10.500 --> 00:09:21.310 benji: Thomas Hal was just joined us, and Thomas for oops so point 1 2 trying to paste in the link for the issue. But I pasted in the wrong thing. Just give me a second. 74 00:09:26.870 --> 00:09:30.990 benji: Does anyone else have questions or clarification at this point? 75 00:09:36.530 --> 00:09:41.439 benji: Oh, and Christina! Christine Natrunias has just joined us to welcome 76 00:09:46.160 --> 00:10:00.709 benji: so I guess II never update through the Admin ui, so II guess I'm just not very familiar with this page. 77 00:10:00.940 --> 00:10:02.270 benji: But 78 00:10:02.680 --> 00:10:09.720 skaught: well, this is. This is, of course, like the basic drupal install. So this would be an install that basically a developer would see most of the time 79 00:10:10.960 --> 00:10:13.039 skaught: nobody in an administration would. 80 00:10:15.310 --> 00:10:15.970 Simo Hellsten: Yes. 81 00:10:17.160 --> 00:10:23.169 Simo Hellsten: I think this is a nice, nice, very small change, but II think it's really nice, because. 82 00:10:23.240 --> 00:10:24.300 Simo Hellsten: like a. 83 00:10:24.570 --> 00:10:37.269 Simo Hellsten: it can be like I. Sometimes it gets confused by that. Those 2 check boxes so receive email notification and check for updates because I get notifications from security 84 00:10:37.930 --> 00:10:41.870 Simo Hellsten: this, or something like that. So it's kind of a 85 00:10:42.150 --> 00:10:55.239 Simo Hellsten: so that there there is link to information that, like explains what those are. So if I was to knit, then it would be that the expression should be above, receive email notifications 86 00:10:55.950 --> 00:10:57.760 skaught: not below them both. 87 00:10:58.130 --> 00:11:12.530 skaught: The issue points out the fact that the that this, the second, the receive email notifications. Actually adds your emails to the list. But it doesn't specify that in this ticket request that we do something about that message. 88 00:11:12.770 --> 00:11:17.530 skaught: but I think moving the message up between them makes more sense. because as soon as it 89 00:11:17.760 --> 00:11:29.320 skaught: right, but the second one is dynamic, and it's still about the top issue. We're not adding in a notice about like on the ticket. It says, you know, this adds your E, the users email address above 90 00:11:29.530 --> 00:11:34.810 skaught: to this other setting. We're not explaining that here. But the ticket doesn't actually say that 91 00:11:35.180 --> 00:11:35.850 skaught: course. 92 00:11:36.170 --> 00:11:40.359 benji: I saw a thumbs up from Ralph. And II also think you're right. 93 00:11:43.230 --> 00:11:48.189 benji: go ahead, Erin. 94 00:11:49.320 --> 00:11:57.680 Aaron McHale: Thanks. So II was under the impression that, like when you did the receiving email notifications was the site itself 95 00:11:58.330 --> 00:12:08.659 Aaron McHale: sending email notifications. So is that is that not the case? Is it actually sending your email off to like triple.org email address, and then that you're ready to list that way? 96 00:12:12.150 --> 00:12:20.550 skaught: That's a good question. I don't know this answered either. I would assume that it just means that when you're when you're yeah, that's a good question. 97 00:12:21.980 --> 00:12:23.759 skaught: I have no idea what that actually does 98 00:12:24.590 --> 00:12:31.540 Aaron McHale: cause the number of times I've put in a like an example.com email address, I mean. 99 00:12:31.780 --> 00:12:34.889 Aaron McHale: I hope that's not being sent to dribble dark. 100 00:12:38.420 --> 00:12:42.819 skaught: Full example.com is a regulated site for a different reason. But 101 00:12:44.270 --> 00:12:45.520 skaught: yeah, yeah, I know what you mean. 102 00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:48.929 skaught: We don't understand that. I guess that's the thing. Just doesn't. 103 00:12:49.240 --> 00:12:53.809 skaught: This ticket isn't saying, we need to do that. But it is the same point that 104 00:12:55.030 --> 00:12:57.110 skaught: it's adding the email address 105 00:12:57.240 --> 00:13:06.740 skaught: to system notifications. But who sends that? That's a crown item, I'm going to say that I'm going to guess at that being a crown item. And I'm pretty sure this is emails coming from your own site. 106 00:13:06.800 --> 00:13:08.020 Aaron McHale: Yeah, to you. Yeah. 107 00:13:08.470 --> 00:13:09.140 Ralf Koller: yep. 108 00:13:09.620 --> 00:13:13.219 benji: and and maybe that should be clarified here. 109 00:13:14.190 --> 00:13:18.469 benji: Configuring email notifications. The role of the Admins email. 110 00:13:26.780 --> 00:13:33.710 skaught: See? Okay? So so the problem with this is that we have a link on on a drupal install page that makes people 111 00:13:34.060 --> 00:13:39.929 skaught: go to a website when they may not actually be online installing it. That could be a problem. How that goes. 112 00:13:45.370 --> 00:13:46.600 benji: Well. 113 00:13:48.090 --> 00:13:50.669 benji: personally, I think that's a pretty 114 00:13:52.440 --> 00:13:55.020 benji: low probability event. 115 00:13:59.760 --> 00:14:00.629 skaught: Just a point. 116 00:14:01.040 --> 00:14:01.830 benji: Okay. 117 00:14:02.140 --> 00:14:05.819 benji: I had a very 118 00:14:06.320 --> 00:14:10.800 benji: small whip complained about it, which is that 119 00:14:11.800 --> 00:14:21.220 benji: The the sentence is written in in the passive voice. Anonymous, anonymous information is sent to 120 00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:31.850 benji: It's not a particularly bad example of the passive voice, in my opinion. 121 00:14:34.300 --> 00:14:40.259 benji: II guess the question is, who who is the subject of the sentence? Who is doing the sending, or what? 122 00:14:40.470 --> 00:14:42.289 benji: And and should we make that? 123 00:14:43.110 --> 00:14:50.630 skaught: Is it not possible to make it say something more clear? Like module status? Information is being sent to drupal.org. 124 00:14:51.040 --> 00:14:55.500 skaught: because we know what information? It's not anonymous information. It's modable status information. 125 00:14:59.320 --> 00:15:01.790 Simo Hellsten: And the sender would be the site. 126 00:15:02.800 --> 00:15:11.419 skaught: Yeah. So we say what it is like. We say that it's your module, the MoD your enabled modules, and the versions that they're running is the information that is being sent to durable. 127 00:15:12.010 --> 00:15:14.999 skaught: because that's the only information that's being sent otherwise. Right? 128 00:15:16.450 --> 00:15:17.670 skaught: As far as I understand. 129 00:15:19.240 --> 00:15:26.260 benji: I believe so, I think this is the information that gets collected to show usage data or can trip modules. 130 00:15:28.110 --> 00:15:37.690 Aaron McHale: Yeah, we we should be clear about the information that's being collected and sent if only from a safe protection perspective. 131 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:47.260 Aaron McHale: I would like 132 00:15:48.530 --> 00:15:49.709 Aaron McHale: sorry. Go ahead. 133 00:15:50.120 --> 00:15:56.829 benji: Ii just did. Didn't installation with the current version of Tuple, and 134 00:15:57.210 --> 00:16:07.649 benji: the sentence is already there, and it's already in the passive voice. And really the only thing being added here is that checking for updates 135 00:16:07.910 --> 00:16:15.520 skaught: is plain text on on my copy of the site, and it's turned into a link here. 136 00:16:15.550 --> 00:16:19.379 benji: So I would suggest that. 137 00:16:19.880 --> 00:16:24.000 benji: the the things we're complaining about. The position of this 138 00:16:24.250 --> 00:16:31.050 benji: help text and the passive voice are valid. Follow up issues. But 139 00:16:32.840 --> 00:16:36.810 benji: but we we we should not consider them as blockers for the current issue. 140 00:16:36.910 --> 00:16:38.920 skaught: Okay, yeah, there's scope of it. 141 00:16:39.750 --> 00:16:43.440 Aaron McHale: Andy, does that triple.org link also appear in 142 00:16:43.870 --> 00:16:46.959 Aaron McHale: cool like a standard site? 143 00:16:47.390 --> 00:16:50.080 benji: Yes. And it just goes to the homepage. 144 00:16:50.450 --> 00:16:57.279 Aaron McHale: Okay? Thing I was gonna say, is that the checking for updates link. The way is right now is 145 00:16:57.410 --> 00:16:58.620 Aaron McHale: is not 146 00:16:58.630 --> 00:17:05.550 Aaron McHale: ideal. So when we provide links, it should be really clear 147 00:17:05.609 --> 00:17:13.650 Aaron McHale: where the link is going. And so, and also like, I would prefer if we avoided like inline links in general. 148 00:17:13.740 --> 00:17:27.490 Aaron McHale: So because, for instance, if you think if you're using you know a screen reader or any kind of assistive technology. And you're just tapping through the links on the page a link that just says checking for updates is completely useless. 149 00:17:27.520 --> 00:17:31.380 Aaron McHale: Because it provides a like text provides no context as to what 150 00:17:31.600 --> 00:17:47.090 Aaron McHale: that link that link is actually going to a documentation page. So the link text needs to be clear about where it's going and what the expectation. So we should have a link separate to the sentence. Probably that says like, there's something like 151 00:17:47.490 --> 00:17:54.179 Aaron McHale: for like brief, like some something I mentioned like documentation about updates, or how 152 00:17:54.450 --> 00:18:06.950 Aaron McHale: what you actually get when you get there. So like, if it's information about what information is sent to drupal.org, we should say, you know, read more about information that sent as part of the update process, or something like that. 153 00:18:13.040 --> 00:18:19.529 benji: That's that's a good point. Checking for updates is not the best link text for that link. 154 00:18:20.100 --> 00:18:20.950 benji: Ralph. 155 00:18:21.700 --> 00:18:23.160 Ralf Koller: One other 156 00:18:23.230 --> 00:18:32.230 Ralf Koller: minor Nitic in regards of the documentation is on the install page. You have site maintenance account while 157 00:18:32.540 --> 00:18:43.700 Ralf Koller: over here. It's called Site Administrator's Email and Administrator isn't mentioned over here directly, and 158 00:18:44.070 --> 00:18:50.570 Ralf Koller: at least myself. I tend to. If I'm uncertain in a area, and I'm new to something. 159 00:18:51.270 --> 00:19:01.439 Ralf Koller: I just try to find the effect wording and to see if I'm correct. And you have 2 email addresses on here. Okay, it's site email address. So 160 00:19:02.990 --> 00:19:10.179 Ralf Koller: probably the assumption is right that the following email address down here is used. But still. 161 00:19:10.380 --> 00:19:16.219 Ralf Koller: to use the the identical attribution might be an idea 162 00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:17.930 Ralf Koller: or a suggestion from my end. 163 00:19:23.980 --> 00:19:26.449 benji: That's also a good point. 164 00:19:42.570 --> 00:19:50.130 benji: those first things we noticed are out of scope. But that would follow up issues. But 165 00:19:50.780 --> 00:19:57.560 benji: using link text that describes clearly where you're going 166 00:19:58.620 --> 00:20:00.599 benji: that's valid for this issue. 167 00:20:00.760 --> 00:20:10.059 benji: Is there any other text there that we could use as the link text or or does? Or should we really use a separate sentence for that 168 00:20:12.180 --> 00:20:25.659 Simo Hellsten: I would recommend a separate sentence. Yeah, none of the text mentions documentation. So only one would be that drupal.org that it tells that it's going to someplace else. But it doesn't mention documentation. 169 00:20:27.950 --> 00:20:36.040 Aaron McHale: Yeah. And why is triple to order Link? If it's just going to the homepage. That's not really a very helpful link if I'm being honest. 170 00:20:36.790 --> 00:20:41.579 skaught: Yeah. But that was standing. That's the thing we're knitting about things that we're standing. 171 00:20:44.970 --> 00:20:47.210 Aaron McHale: Yeah. I wonder if that's 172 00:20:48.400 --> 00:20:52.450 Aaron McHale: like, I think if that's you could see that as in scope, in the sense that, like 173 00:20:52.810 --> 00:20:54.960 Aaron McHale: we, you could say, we're like 174 00:20:56.040 --> 00:20:59.499 Aaron McHale: improving the sentence and making it more useful. 175 00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:06.819 Aaron McHale: If that's like the scope of the issue, then technically removing that link and restructuring the sentence, add another link is 176 00:21:07.340 --> 00:21:08.579 Aaron McHale: could be in scope. 177 00:21:11.190 --> 00:21:16.020 skaught: and it's always a good question. How are we not allowed to change scope while we're having a conversation about it? 178 00:21:18.700 --> 00:21:27.910 skaught: No, okay. So the ticket, of course, says add a link just to the update page. It doesn't say that we can't improve the sentence so that it meets. 179 00:21:28.060 --> 00:21:34.819 skaught: So the sentence reads better and meets accessibility. But that's something we can do. We can't necessarily drop the.org 180 00:21:36.620 --> 00:21:41.840 skaught: that is extending right like that's the piece that's out. 181 00:21:42.050 --> 00:21:42.930 skaught: Buy that 182 00:21:45.250 --> 00:21:46.369 skaught: in that respect. 183 00:21:46.980 --> 00:21:52.979 skaught: But no, it has no use. I don't see the point here. You know you're installing drupal. You know where you got how you got there. 184 00:21:53.770 --> 00:21:57.590 benji: Well, that's some indication of 185 00:21:57.650 --> 00:22:03.100 benji: where that anonymous information is going to show up. It's 186 00:22:03.510 --> 00:22:13.359 skaught: not a very specific. If it gave a link to a status page, so you could see how how this was being used like if this link to drupal org 187 00:22:13.610 --> 00:22:18.139 skaught: release page. And so you could see the actual stats for drupal. That would be impressive. 188 00:22:22.040 --> 00:22:25.240 skaught: But if it just goes front page and whipped, did you die? You're under. 189 00:22:25.500 --> 00:22:27.559 skaught: But then you see how it's actually used? 190 00:22:28.110 --> 00:22:33.080 Aaron McHale: Yeah, a common practice would be like linking to a privacy statement or something. Which 191 00:22:33.220 --> 00:22:36.499 Aaron McHale: do we have a privacy statement for this information. 192 00:22:38.870 --> 00:22:41.280 Aaron McHale: Maybe that's what we're trying to address here. I'm not sure. 193 00:22:42.070 --> 00:22:53.460 benji: II also think that having 2 links is sometimes worse than having one link, because then people don't know which link to click on. So maybe for adding link, we should remove the old one 194 00:23:03.950 --> 00:23:05.020 Aaron McHale: agree. 195 00:23:50.410 --> 00:23:51.750 benji: and I guess we 196 00:23:52.850 --> 00:23:57.619 benji: we often leave it up to the people working on the issue. For instance. 197 00:23:59.540 --> 00:24:09.870 benji: we could suggest that the help text belongs below the first checkbox and leave it up to people working on the issue. 198 00:24:09.930 --> 00:24:18.610 benji: If that's an an easy thing to do as part of the same issue, they they can do it as part of the same issue. Expanding scope. 199 00:24:18.810 --> 00:24:22.500 benji: or they can choose to make it a follow up issue. 200 00:24:25.910 --> 00:24:26.909 skaught: That sounds fair. 201 00:24:28.620 --> 00:24:40.309 benji: so should we. Is it worth considering 202 00:24:40.670 --> 00:24:51.910 benji: rewriting the sentence to indicate that your site is sending information to get rid of the passive voice? Or is that just chromatical nitpicking. 203 00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:00.699 skaught: Now, I think our sentence is too big. 204 00:25:00.920 --> 00:25:01.760 In general. 205 00:25:03.430 --> 00:25:04.390 skaught: it should 206 00:25:06.060 --> 00:25:12.680 skaught: be more present about what the information is. It's not anonymous information. Define what the information is because we know what it is. That would be the other. 207 00:25:12.860 --> 00:25:23.409 benji: Yeah, it's. It's a general principle that you should describe things by what they are rather than by what they're not. So saying that the information and is anonymous is 208 00:25:23.690 --> 00:25:40.110 benji: saying what it's not. It's not going to send any personally identifiable information. It's not going to send to the password. So on. Yeah, it's not sending user information at all client information. And A, and that is important. It's as as Aaron points out, a privacy concern. But but it's also a negative 209 00:25:40.920 --> 00:25:48.270 benji: so II guess we we should try to 210 00:25:49.030 --> 00:25:52.529 benji: describe what information is being sent. 211 00:25:55.870 --> 00:25:58.620 benji: Do we know exactly where information is being sent? 212 00:25:58.860 --> 00:26:01.840 benji: Is it just the information about which 213 00:26:02.350 --> 00:26:04.210 benji: configured modules are installed? 214 00:26:04.270 --> 00:26:10.710 skaught: Yeah, to the rest of my knowledge. It's your installed modules and the versions of they are. That's the only information I can actually confirm. 215 00:26:26.890 --> 00:26:33.379 benji: And does the documentation even say that you can change the settings after installation. 216 00:26:41.630 --> 00:26:43.409 the link also in the chat. 217 00:26:44.300 --> 00:26:46.660 skaught: No, I don't see anything as so talks about disabling 218 00:26:58.150 --> 00:27:02.239 skaught: it. Well, it says that it updates the is the update manager module. 219 00:27:03.520 --> 00:27:08.469 skaught: Is that the same actual same where you were talking about the name is that is, it actually called the same thing? 220 00:27:10.590 --> 00:27:11.619 skaught: It's a good question. 221 00:27:13.730 --> 00:27:15.070 benji: I'm sorry I don't. 222 00:27:15.180 --> 00:27:20.830 skaught: Didn't, didn't quite follow that question. Sorry he was talking about this fact that then it's called one thing there. 223 00:27:20.950 --> 00:27:25.679 skaught: But is it actually called the update manager module in drupal? It's called Update 224 00:27:31.510 --> 00:27:37.350 benji: update manager. Okay? Now, it's 225 00:27:58.450 --> 00:28:02.660 Simo Hellsten: so the machine name is update. But that label. 226 00:28:02.790 --> 00:28:03.939 That kind of the 227 00:28:04.360 --> 00:28:06.909 Simo Hellsten: human readable name is Update manager. 228 00:28:07.410 --> 00:28:08.140 skaught: No. 229 00:28:15.150 --> 00:28:24.020 skaught: my really wide complaint at this point would be that the update manager, the check for updates actually says check for updates. It doesn't say, enable update manager. 230 00:28:24.200 --> 00:28:30.269 skaught: And then underneath of it, give a description that that is what that actually is when you're updating it and enabling it on this page. 231 00:28:34.570 --> 00:28:39.910 skaught: Checkbox should say, enable update manager, and it should have a description under it that says 232 00:28:39.980 --> 00:28:44.119 skaught: that will be sending anonymous or sending module version information back 233 00:28:45.010 --> 00:28:47.400 skaught: that would actually simplify the entire problem. 234 00:28:57.020 --> 00:28:59.359 skaught: So the sentence becomes a checkbox description. 235 00:28:59.960 --> 00:29:08.620 benji: I suppose, for someone who's never installed Google before. This is the first time they've done it. The terminology modules might be unfamiliar. 236 00:29:09.490 --> 00:29:22.179 Aaron McHale: yeah, I think check for Updates automatically is probably more useful in that case, because. 237 00:29:22.730 --> 00:29:34.050 Aaron McHale: like is describing the action that will happen like the user at this point almost doesn't care if the fact it's a module or subsystem, or whatever terminology we use to describe that 238 00:29:38.490 --> 00:29:39.620 skaught: we're overthinking. 239 00:29:42.040 --> 00:29:43.670 benji: Well, that's what we do. 240 00:29:47.570 --> 00:30:04.689 skaught: So we th this meets the criteria. But the criteria. Should you just need some 241 00:30:05.640 --> 00:30:11.659 skaught: more points to be thought about, I think, and more, maybe follow up issues around. It would be what we're talking about. 242 00:30:21.180 --> 00:30:25.089 skaught: Work meets the criteria, but the criteria may need wider adjustment. 243 00:30:30.050 --> 00:30:34.129 benji: So let's see, on the documentation page. It says, when setting up 244 00:30:34.710 --> 00:30:43.880 benji: a new tuple site, the installation process offers options to configure the update manager module for immediate use. Da da da da. 245 00:30:49.980 --> 00:30:59.559 benji: So I guess what what I'm looking for is an explicit statement that you can. I change that configuration after installation? 246 00:31:00.470 --> 00:31:01.280 And 247 00:31:01.650 --> 00:31:03.820 benji: that's not really explicit here. 248 00:31:09.490 --> 00:31:12.640 benji: yeah. 249 00:31:13.210 --> 00:31:18.490 benji: So I've been taking notes. And II have a a list of suggestions. 250 00:31:41.490 --> 00:31:44.749 benji: I'll post into the chat 251 00:31:44.770 --> 00:31:46.570 benji: and notes I've made. 252 00:31:47.540 --> 00:31:49.830 benji: Did I leave anything out? 253 00:32:11.160 --> 00:32:13.940 benji: And the email is addressed in the docs. 254 00:32:16.630 --> 00:32:22.389 benji: What do you mean by that, Ralph? The detail I've mentioned before. You have 2 emails 255 00:32:22.790 --> 00:32:24.580 Ralf Koller: on that installation page. 256 00:32:24.640 --> 00:32:35.360 Ralf Koller: And to use the same terminology used over here. Site maintenance accounts, email address instead of Site administrators account, which is currently used 257 00:32:36.390 --> 00:32:38.820 Ralf Koller: and just trying to be consistent. 258 00:32:39.870 --> 00:32:43.269 Ralf Koller: with the label. 259 00:32:44.910 --> 00:32:48.890 benji: Right? That's what I meant by my second to last white. 260 00:32:49.550 --> 00:32:51.950 Ralf Koller: Okay, okay. Sorry. Okay. 261 00:32:57.080 --> 00:33:11.820 Ralf Koller: Shall we move on to the next issue? 262 00:33:12.950 --> 00:33:18.420 benji: Yeah. The only question is, who volunteers to? That's to comment. 263 00:33:28.930 --> 00:33:30.629 benji: Okay, I can do it. 264 00:33:34.400 --> 00:33:36.770 benji: And before we go on, 265 00:33:37.000 --> 00:33:42.630 benji: Christina and Thomas, I think, join the meeting. A little after we started, do either? If you have issues you'd like to bring up 266 00:33:45.430 --> 00:33:48.960 Thomas Howell: towards the end. I'd like to talk about 267 00:33:49.570 --> 00:33:58.730 Thomas Howell: our meeting earlier this week. Ralph that Ralph and I attended but I'd like us to go through all of the normal meeting stuff first. 268 00:33:58.840 --> 00:34:00.990 benji: Okay, Aaron. 269 00:34:02.020 --> 00:34:11.109 Aaron McHale: yeah. So I was gonna highlight in the chat I posted on additional kind of session about link text as an example. So feel free to use that. 270 00:34:11.560 --> 00:34:12.239 benji: That's 271 00:34:17.820 --> 00:34:19.590 benji: okay, or Ralph. 272 00:34:19.690 --> 00:34:23.149 benji: Why don't? Why don't you decide which of the other 2 issues you'd like to bring up? 273 00:34:23.960 --> 00:34:35.270 Ralf Koller: I think maybe we take a look at the issue. Number 3, 1, 8, 4, 5, 8, 8, make disabled status more obvious in a view 274 00:34:35.370 --> 00:34:41.440 Ralf Koller: where Scott actively worked on. and 275 00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:44.029 Ralf Koller: so he is 276 00:34:44.500 --> 00:34:50.090 Ralf Koller: the most insight there. And I've also commented on the issue as well. 277 00:34:52.570 --> 00:34:53.469 benji: Okay. 278 00:34:55.080 --> 00:34:58.950 Ralf Koller: I'll check over here 279 00:34:59.520 --> 00:35:01.200 Ralf Koller: basically. 280 00:35:04.610 --> 00:35:05.560 one step 281 00:35:08.370 --> 00:35:10.979 Ralf Koller: if you go on to a 282 00:35:11.260 --> 00:35:13.280 Ralf Koller: disabled new. 283 00:35:15.070 --> 00:35:16.360 Ralf Koller: Then 284 00:35:16.390 --> 00:35:24.660 Ralf Koller: the issue adds, basically a note that this view is disabled and also 285 00:35:25.710 --> 00:35:32.180 Ralf Koller: adds a grayish background color compared 1 s. Go one step 286 00:35:36.990 --> 00:35:45.180 Ralf Koller: over here you have a white background. and here you have a grey background. Those are the main changes. 287 00:35:45.690 --> 00:35:50.860 benji: I don't see the change in background color over zoom to which other people see the difference. 288 00:35:58.530 --> 00:36:03.430 benji: Okay, I I'll I'll I'll trust you that it's there, but it just doesn't come through on zoom. 289 00:36:03.810 --> 00:36:07.380 skaught: Yeah, I see it. 290 00:36:08.010 --> 00:36:08.820 benji: Okay. 291 00:36:09.520 --> 00:36:16.629 Aaron McHale: it. It's the. It's like the the wrapper around the view area becomes grey rather than the whole page itself. 292 00:36:19.250 --> 00:36:20.080 benji: Okay? 293 00:36:25.780 --> 00:36:27.180 Ralf Koller: Any questions? 294 00:37:03.340 --> 00:37:05.980 benji: Right? Just looking at the page. 295 00:37:08.210 --> 00:37:12.930 benji: on the local copy. 296 00:37:14.010 --> 00:37:17.170 benji: Right? There's no indication. 297 00:37:17.900 --> 00:37:22.970 benji: You have the usual dropbox to edit, queue, name or description which. 298 00:37:23.090 --> 00:37:28.989 benji: oddly, does not include the option to enable it. 299 00:37:33.630 --> 00:37:39.069 benji: yeah. So 300 00:37:41.080 --> 00:37:42.740 benji: why 301 00:37:43.980 --> 00:37:53.759 benji: why give them a link to the page where they can enable it, instead of adding it. adding the enabling option 302 00:37:53.970 --> 00:37:57.889 benji: to the drop button just above this message. 303 00:37:59.810 --> 00:38:05.439 benji: In fact, II would think that enabling should be the first option 304 00:38:05.540 --> 00:38:07.150 benji: in that drop button. 305 00:38:24.500 --> 00:38:44.299 skaught: I am not hearing the chorus of Benji. You're right. So maybe not. I had suggested that to. I had suggested that to her. I'm not actually sure for her. I'm sorry. 306 00:38:44.780 --> 00:38:46.650 skaught: Because then 307 00:38:46.770 --> 00:38:54.630 skaught: that's why the sub issue was made. Because I brought it up to her that like, we're just kind of adding a label on, and that's fine to add the label on. 308 00:38:54.770 --> 00:39:16.139 skaught: I wasn't sure if the complexity of adding on that to the main item would be too complex. I just hadn't looked into that. But to give them the suggestion to open up the second ticket. What is the process for like saying, Hey, no, like the other ticket is actually better to proceed with, anyway. How do you say I? What is there process? Close this ticket and say, no. The other ticket is actually a better idea to proceed with. 309 00:39:17.660 --> 00:39:22.719 benji: So you can certainly leave a comment. And if people agree with that 310 00:39:23.030 --> 00:39:30.819 benji: Or, frankly, if if you're sure enough of yourself that that you, you do it, you can close one issue 311 00:39:31.010 --> 00:39:36.990 benji: as a duplicate and link to the other issue. 312 00:39:37.940 --> 00:39:46.290 skaught: And that's a normal process. Then. like, that's a more comfortable process for saying, Hey. like, let's go with the other issue. 313 00:39:46.980 --> 00:39:48.490 benji: Yeah, I think you you 314 00:39:49.160 --> 00:39:53.879 benji: prefer to get consensus before doing that. Most of the time, Ralph. Go ahead. 315 00:39:55.400 --> 00:40:06.819 Ralf Koller: I think, adding the option to enable a disabled view on the disabled view page is definitely a good thing, but at the same time 316 00:40:07.510 --> 00:40:13.619 Ralf Koller: having such a label like like it is introduced in this issue here is also a good thing. 317 00:40:13.900 --> 00:40:15.020 Ralf Koller: and 318 00:40:15.730 --> 00:40:20.269 Ralf Koller: I think they go along, and it would be good to have both of them 319 00:40:21.200 --> 00:40:33.119 skaught: from my perspective. Disable displays. Does that if you go down and disable the display it already has. It already. Just puts up a simple little message on top, even though you're on the display that's disabled, and the button is already there. 320 00:40:34.990 --> 00:40:39.099 skaught: So there's like they already double down on it like. So go up to this and disable the display. You're on 321 00:40:40.700 --> 00:40:43.570 skaught: lower one, the lower the second. 322 00:40:43.650 --> 00:40:48.210 skaught: the duplicate. Okay, just disable this one 323 00:40:48.930 --> 00:41:03.989 skaught: disable page bottom bottom bottom. Option. Yeah. Yeah. So see there, it just popped up a little message that says, this display is disabled, which is great for each individual display, and then this function goes out, the display below it. So did you notice that? 324 00:41:04.520 --> 00:41:13.380 skaught: So our background is great because of this new work? But this this, if an individual display, is disabled. it ghosts it and that standing functionality. 325 00:41:14.100 --> 00:41:21.320 skaught: But you can still click on everything. It just makes it look transparent. I don't know what the purpose of that is. Of course, the you know you can still edit everything on it. 326 00:41:26.360 --> 00:41:33.549 benji: Well, II think the purpose is the same as as the grey background. It's visual indication that the 327 00:41:34.340 --> 00:41:37.919 benji: display is disabled. I'm sorry, Aaron. Go ahead. 328 00:41:38.900 --> 00:41:40.080 Aaron McHale: I 329 00:41:40.580 --> 00:41:52.429 Aaron McHale: okay, I have a few thoughts now. The first one is given what we're looking at, and I'm so for this issue. But I would certainly recommend that. We not 330 00:41:52.720 --> 00:42:02.069 Aaron McHale: ghost the fit that display when it's disabled especially if you can interact with it like that. sorry. Second. 331 00:42:02.440 --> 00:42:27.459 Aaron McHale: that's already happened in drupal. I we, this issue doesn't add that in yeah, that's what I'm saying. So I know, that's out of scope for this issue. What I'm saying is like, I think, seeing that here we definitely shouldn't do that like that's maybe you know, there's maybe a separate issue could be, we could look at opening to say, actually, let's change that behavior because that's not great. You know, accessibility wise, especially if you're gonna interact with the elements there. 332 00:42:27.600 --> 00:42:28.920 Aaron McHale: the 333 00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:31.939 Aaron McHale: yeah, what was I gonna do? So 334 00:42:32.460 --> 00:42:38.740 Aaron McHale: in general, though in terms of what this issue is trying to do I think I would like to see 335 00:42:38.820 --> 00:42:49.200 Aaron McHale: a more of like a a general pattern, because in drupal there's other. There's other things that you can disable like I'm thinking, like other config honor config entities I'm trying to think of like 336 00:42:50.300 --> 00:42:56.209 Aaron McHale: I don't know. I if there, I can't think of any of the on my head. Maybe blocks is like, I don't know, but like 337 00:42:56.480 --> 00:43:19.289 Aaron McHale: I would like to see a consistent pattern for how things are disabled, because if you, the the same behavior when you disable view, if you can disable something somewhere else, should be should be used like the same messaging, the same kind of approach. So if if there is other places, then we should look to do the same. 338 00:43:19.430 --> 00:43:21.200 Aaron McHale: There. 339 00:43:22.170 --> 00:43:23.110 Aaron McHale: and 340 00:43:23.530 --> 00:43:32.509 Aaron McHale: yeah, that's what I'm thinking. I'm not sure like the I would question the like the adding the view over the views overview. Link. 341 00:43:32.820 --> 00:43:34.889 Aaron McHale: I'm just not sure that's 342 00:43:35.870 --> 00:43:52.040 Aaron McHale: helpful like. If there was a link there that just enabled it cause the thing is there, if you want to enable it like rather than I think, Benji, did you say like, just provide a link that enables the view? Perhaps. But again, I'd like to see that applied more generally rather than just specifics of use. 343 00:43:55.520 --> 00:44:01.000 benji: Yeah, I did suggest adding the enable link to the top right drop. 344 00:44:01.500 --> 00:44:03.030 benji: Yes, thanks. You know. 345 00:44:06.630 --> 00:44:15.099 benji: Well, did you also want to say something oh, I was still a raise raising my hand. But yeah, I would have basically 346 00:44:15.320 --> 00:44:22.119 Ralf Koller: one in particular. I wasn't aware that it's possible to 347 00:44:22.270 --> 00:44:24.540 Ralf Koller: disable a display, and 348 00:44:24.590 --> 00:44:33.759 Ralf Koller: then I think the position for that this view is disabled admin notice I was before that already skeptical. 349 00:44:33.810 --> 00:44:35.299 Ralf Koller: but I still think 350 00:44:35.680 --> 00:44:39.629 Ralf Koller: the correct position in regards to hierarchy would be between 351 00:44:39.680 --> 00:44:46.690 Ralf Koller: the secondary taps over here, either that the tabs over up here and the displays 352 00:44:47.260 --> 00:44:48.550 Ralf Koller: course. It's 353 00:44:50.620 --> 00:44:56.999 Ralf Koller: that admin notices about all this place in the entire view and having it underneath 354 00:44:57.420 --> 00:45:04.640 Ralf Koller: it looks like it's the context for page at the moment, even though the text communicates something different. 355 00:45:05.280 --> 00:45:06.120 benji: Yes. 356 00:45:09.250 --> 00:45:26.399 Ralf Koller: and one other small detail is something I've already posted on. The issue. The page title, should also reflect that that view? At the moment. It's just glossary and the site's name. 357 00:45:26.410 --> 00:45:34.760 Ralf Koller: but it should be let apply that front-loaded pattern we've discussed several times. First the name 358 00:45:35.540 --> 00:45:39.720 Ralf Koller: the most important information. Of that view. 359 00:45:39.760 --> 00:45:53.230 Ralf Koller: You're looking at. And then basically disabled pew or something like that. So that a screen reader user when visiting a page already has the entire context, because 360 00:45:53.320 --> 00:45:54.660 Ralf Koller: down here 361 00:45:55.170 --> 00:46:00.789 Ralf Koller: the there's the possibility that that node might go unnoticed. 362 00:46:05.320 --> 00:46:11.960 benji: So so I'm sorry you're saying that the current title has the name of the view and the site. 363 00:46:13.100 --> 00:46:16.020 Ralf Koller: Yeah, it's at the moment. If you take a look. 364 00:46:17.700 --> 00:46:22.289 benji: II think content is the entity type of this view? 365 00:46:23.350 --> 00:46:31.140 Ralf Koller: At the moment you have. Oh, oh, you mean the actual title, tag not the on the page. No, no. The page title. 366 00:46:31.510 --> 00:46:35.470 Ralf Koller: actual page, title, Clossery Content Trooper 11 367 00:46:35.810 --> 00:46:46.359 Ralf Koller: is the current title, and I would suggest to add the detail that it's at the end disabled view there as well. 368 00:46:48.410 --> 00:46:49.330 benji: I see 369 00:46:55.610 --> 00:47:09.130 benji: as as a visual user. I only notice page titles when when they're in tabs, and like many people, I have way. Too many tabs open, so I usually don't see them at all. I'm sorry, Aaron, go ahead. 370 00:47:11.990 --> 00:47:14.719 Aaron McHale: I just forgot to lower my hand. 371 00:47:15.180 --> 00:47:15.860 benji: Okay. 372 00:47:17.650 --> 00:47:23.289 skaught: sorry. You just met the tag, not the HTML title. Tag. Correct? Sorry. 373 00:47:24.200 --> 00:47:28.750 Ralf Koller: No. I meant the page, the a title in head. 374 00:47:28.770 --> 00:47:30.010 benji: the title. 375 00:47:30.510 --> 00:47:37.120 Ralf Koller: the title Tech Internet. So basically that you get oops something like 376 00:47:38.400 --> 00:47:43.490 Ralf Koller: disabled you. It's just an arbitrary example. 377 00:47:44.340 --> 00:47:46.910 Ralf Koller: Change it to something like that. But it's 378 00:47:47.420 --> 00:47:52.089 Ralf Koller: directly clear. And if you visit with a screen, reader, you directly get 379 00:47:52.610 --> 00:48:01.679 Ralf Koller: closer content, disabled. View 1111, and invoice over a few steps afterwards. 380 00:48:03.080 --> 00:48:08.149 Ralf Koller: Oh, and A few minutes ago Sima mentioned in the chat. 381 00:48:08.230 --> 00:48:13.360 benji: The ghost effect even uses 2 different shades of grade. Third columns lighter. 382 00:48:18.450 --> 00:48:25.360 benji: So I would suggest that as a matter of managing scope. and 383 00:48:25.570 --> 00:48:28.180 benji: you know, not trying not to be a bully 384 00:48:28.690 --> 00:48:36.030 benji: and trying to encourage small changes that we go ahead and 385 00:48:36.450 --> 00:48:43.530 benji: use the message as it currently is, with the link to the views over, view page. 386 00:48:43.540 --> 00:48:49.620 benji: and as a follow-up issue. add the enable option 387 00:48:50.070 --> 00:48:52.240 benji: to the drop button 388 00:48:52.910 --> 00:49:03.680 benji: and as part of that follow up issue, remove the link to the views overview page, because at that point you'll have an easier way to enable it. 389 00:49:04.940 --> 00:49:13.850 benji: As part of this issue. I think Ralph has a a good point that the position of the message is just wrong. It's 390 00:49:14.210 --> 00:49:16.179 benji: it's 391 00:49:17.870 --> 00:49:25.099 benji: It's along with all the information for the current display rather than for the view. So it should go in the same 392 00:49:25.560 --> 00:49:31.800 benji: area as the regular messages area where it says, currently you have unread changes. 393 00:49:37.290 --> 00:49:40.899 benji: Erin, go ahead. 394 00:49:41.630 --> 00:49:44.160 Aaron McHale: Yeah. I was actually suggesting that 395 00:49:44.430 --> 00:49:49.079 Aaron McHale: instead of a views overview link, like, if it's possible to just 396 00:49:49.100 --> 00:49:51.470 Aaron McHale: have a link that allows you to enable the view. 397 00:49:53.010 --> 00:49:57.410 Aaron McHale: because that way it's like, you know, one less step. 398 00:49:58.350 --> 00:50:02.180 Aaron McHale: And then that way. Also, the link is still relevant. 399 00:50:02.560 --> 00:50:06.939 benji: So you want to put the enable link directly in this message. 400 00:50:07.560 --> 00:50:17.729 Aaron McHale: I'm suggesting that would be a better idea than linking to the user page if possible, but also, like, I still like your idea about making the enable link the top item in the drop button. 401 00:50:18.700 --> 00:50:21.279 Aaron McHale: So I think both are valid. I think it's just 402 00:50:21.440 --> 00:50:31.520 Aaron McHale: if there's a if there's a better link we can provide like a more more actionable link. I think that's better than the Us. Open page. Otherwise, if if not cause. 403 00:50:31.650 --> 00:50:35.120 Aaron McHale: I don't know. Maybe it's a maybe it's like a a sub, you know. 404 00:50:35.460 --> 00:50:43.729 Aaron McHale: It makes a post request or something, but if it's possible to have a link that just enables it, then that might be a better option than going to views overview. 405 00:50:48.060 --> 00:50:51.590 benji: Ralph, what happens when you click on the 406 00:50:52.180 --> 00:50:58.480 benji: disable, and then the enable link for the for the display 407 00:51:00.690 --> 00:51:05.619 skaught: Ajax action. but nothing valuable, nothing. You can see nothing till you save the page. 408 00:51:07.600 --> 00:51:20.729 skaught: and so the top. So. But we don't see right now is you have unsafe changes at the top. But of course, if you're a congruent editor, another developer comes. Another person comes to this view and sees it. That top link changes to the break lock. 409 00:51:21.680 --> 00:51:22.729 skaught: Break this lock. 410 00:51:25.740 --> 00:51:37.380 skaught: So one of the reasons we moved it into it. It was that the it you'd have the both messages always. Basically, you always have a message as is disabled, distribute disabled. 411 00:51:37.660 --> 00:51:43.130 skaught: But the unsafe changes. Block is actually a Javascript action that gets hidden and saved. 412 00:51:43.210 --> 00:51:44.910 skaught: So it's always on the page. 413 00:51:46.990 --> 00:51:54.439 skaught: Okay, II didn't even realize that was core functionality. I thought, yeah, I actually describe it in the ticket below that, I think. 414 00:51:54.880 --> 00:52:11.490 skaught: like. That's actually what we sort of described is we moved it in because it was. I thought I thought it was just bloating more of the top space there, because we can't change the to those 2 messages they work to dynamically. The break lock function works where you have, it's, you know, has a link in it, but that's more probably more complex than adding it into the drop button 415 00:52:11.680 --> 00:52:15.440 skaught: as a piece of featureism. And it's getting more complex featureism because you're 416 00:52:15.580 --> 00:52:18.649 skaught: creating more confirmed forms, I think, and that was circumstance. 417 00:52:23.230 --> 00:52:28.939 skaught: my only other sorry, my only other complete. The only thing that I thought like even even, you know, even 418 00:52:29.080 --> 00:52:47.379 skaught: cause I did it. My complaint was that the background that they chose was this blue, this gray color? I was trying to figure out why and or even if you guys might brought bring up the color of why not use like something like the unpublished pink in the background? Because then it's much more clear right off the bat that there's something about the view that's disabled. 419 00:52:48.410 --> 00:52:52.010 skaught: not just the background color, which is what they already chosen. 420 00:52:53.750 --> 00:53:03.969 benji: And and to Aaron's point that we should try to be consistent. Ii think that using the same pink that we use for unpublished notes is is probably a good idea. 421 00:53:10.930 --> 00:53:13.190 benji: Error is your lane still up or again up? 422 00:53:13.480 --> 00:53:16.749 Aaron McHale: I think it's so. No, I think it's sorry. 423 00:53:16.870 --> 00:53:17.690 Aaron McHale: And 424 00:53:24.930 --> 00:53:27.889 benji: okay. So so Scott, could you say again, what? 425 00:53:28.370 --> 00:53:31.699 benji: What are the things that that technically we can't do here? 426 00:53:32.850 --> 00:53:42.440 skaught: I'm there will be 2 sets of messages on the top. We can't remove. There's always the you have unsaved changes block that block is always there and hidden by Javascript. 427 00:53:45.080 --> 00:53:51.029 skaught: and if you have a concurrent editor, then you have the the block break. That's when it changes to a lock break. 428 00:53:56.500 --> 00:54:11.049 skaught: Okay, so so is that not the standard messages area for yes, it is. But there's 2 set. II we were talking about trying to combine the message at 1 point, so there would just be like 2 points. You have unsafe changes. And this view is disabled. That was one with 6 weeks to talk about 429 00:54:11.200 --> 00:54:15.090 skaught: that way. There wouldn't be 2 strict black blocks at the top of the page. 430 00:54:18.750 --> 00:54:27.139 benji: Okay? So so so those 2 are are complicated. But but we we could add a second message to the messages area, couldn't we? 431 00:54:27.160 --> 00:54:33.229 skaught: No, because they. One message is always there and hidden by Javascript. It gets hidden and shown. 432 00:54:33.590 --> 00:54:49.920 skaught: And and it's the it's the messages area that gets hidden, not the individual message. It's not a real message area. This is what we're looking at is just part of the actual same form. So it's a pseudo message status wrapper inside of a form element. But it's not actually a status 433 00:54:50.470 --> 00:54:56.459 skaught: page message. It's not a drupal message. Okay, it's hidden in the form. It's a block that looks like something in a form. 434 00:54:56.470 --> 00:55:03.459 skaught: Okay? So it's it's not the standard message. Message is still on top of everything else here. 435 00:55:05.650 --> 00:55:11.579 skaught: that message on top is part of the form. 436 00:55:18.670 --> 00:55:24.380 skaught: So it's easy enough to move on top of both sets. But both sets have to remain. They can't be combined in 437 00:55:27.660 --> 00:55:28.850 benji: okay, click. 438 00:55:33.240 --> 00:55:35.909 Aaron McHale: I think I think that's kind of okay. I mean. 439 00:55:36.490 --> 00:55:45.070 Aaron McHale: we can. We don't really have a pattern for a specific pattern, for you have unsafe changes for that message, ma'am, because, like 440 00:55:45.230 --> 00:55:53.540 Aaron McHale: one of the what that makes is trying to do is make it really clear to the user, like something. You know you did something on the page, hey? This isn't 441 00:55:53.840 --> 00:55:55.599 Aaron McHale: you know. If you haven't saved this yet. 442 00:55:55.620 --> 00:55:57.579 skaught: Yeah, I do that all the time. 443 00:55:57.840 --> 00:56:06.279 Aaron McHale: II think the more visually distinct and the more obvious that is. the better. So the fact that that is. 444 00:56:06.850 --> 00:56:08.430 Aaron McHale: you know, would be 445 00:56:09.140 --> 00:56:14.039 Aaron McHale: its own separate message area is not necessarily a bad thing. 446 00:56:15.140 --> 00:56:23.919 Aaron McHale: So even if, like, yeah. So I would support, I would still support moving the. This will use the table message higher up, even if it's a separate message 447 00:56:23.960 --> 00:56:32.140 Aaron McHale: box. Because I think as well said, it's it. It's a better fit there. From a hierarchy perspective. 448 00:56:36.780 --> 00:56:41.429 skaught: I'm okay with it, too. I thought it was a little cluttered, but others feel it's good when it's good to. 449 00:56:43.480 --> 00:56:47.819 skaught: until somebody wants to do a wider ux review because we're gonna you get anybody like, you know. 450 00:56:47.880 --> 00:56:51.770 skaught: ghosting the page and changing the colors of the pages. A lot of funny stuff on top of it right? 451 00:56:52.930 --> 00:56:55.829 skaught: Especially when you can just click on stuff and edit it and change it anyway. 452 00:56:57.060 --> 00:56:57.880 Aaron McHale: right? 453 00:57:09.070 --> 00:57:14.500 skaught: But it does accomplish the job of helping to people to understand that a view has been disabled. And that's why. 454 00:57:14.610 --> 00:57:21.689 skaught: like, you know, the original report was like, you know, we got to. We came to this view, and it was disabled, and it wasn't clear. So at least it does that right 455 00:57:21.890 --> 00:57:26.579 skaught: unless the other ticket, and to add it in. And it's actually something that's simple enough to do quickly. 456 00:57:27.150 --> 00:57:28.839 skaught: I just don't know. I just don't know offhand. 457 00:57:29.580 --> 00:57:35.740 benji: Okay, we've less than 10 min to go. And a few people have their hands raised. Thomas, can you go first? 458 00:57:36.510 --> 00:57:45.769 Thomas Howell: I just wanted to. say that I needed a few minutes to talk about the meeting on Monday. So if we can wrap this up that'd be great. 459 00:57:46.130 --> 00:57:47.840 benji: Okay? And Ralph. 460 00:57:47.980 --> 00:57:52.310 Ralf Koller: just one brief comment and idea. 461 00:57:52.910 --> 00:58:01.959 Ralf Koller: at the moment the this view is disabled. Admin. Notice is labeled as a warning in yellow, but would it make sense 462 00:58:02.840 --> 00:58:08.769 Ralf Koller: to make it just an info in green. and that way it would also 463 00:58:08.790 --> 00:58:12.310 Ralf Koller: distinguish between those unsafe changes 464 00:58:12.420 --> 00:58:13.520 Ralf Koller: which become 465 00:58:14.580 --> 00:58:23.469 Ralf Koller: may context, context sensitive if some changes happen, but the view is disabled is a general notice in that way it's 466 00:58:23.820 --> 00:58:25.050 Ralf Koller: informational 467 00:58:28.450 --> 00:58:31.540 Ralf Koller: and no exceptions. So just a thought. 468 00:58:33.330 --> 00:58:38.099 benji: Getting a thumbs up from Simo. Yeah, I agree it should be in. So anyone else 469 00:58:40.730 --> 00:58:42.279 benji: thumbs up from Aaron. 470 00:58:44.870 --> 00:58:52.569 benji: Okay, I I think we have consensus on that point. Let me 471 00:58:52.610 --> 00:58:57.570 benji: briefly run through some of the suggestions we've got 472 00:58:58.350 --> 00:59:08.480 benji: so like I brought up at the start that we should should add it 473 00:59:08.770 --> 00:59:15.739 benji: to the drop list. I think we already have consensus on that. I just pasted my notes into the chat. 474 00:59:16.090 --> 00:59:25.570 benji: Although it could be a follow up Do we agree on these? 475 00:59:25.620 --> 00:59:28.380 benji: Second, follow up that 476 00:59:30.080 --> 00:59:38.260 benji: that the way we indicate a disabled view should be consistent with the way we indicate a disabled display 477 00:59:39.680 --> 00:59:42.470 benji: that there should be 478 00:59:43.420 --> 00:59:44.750 benji: a. 479 00:59:44.780 --> 00:59:48.040 benji: A, a message and 480 00:59:48.730 --> 00:59:54.769 benji: and consistent visual indication, whether it be the background or or the 481 00:59:55.170 --> 00:59:59.179 benji: the ghosting. that it should at least be consistent. 482 01:00:02.810 --> 01:00:04.610 benji: get thumbs up from Aaron. 483 01:00:06.120 --> 01:00:07.370 benji: Anyone disagree? 484 01:00:10.540 --> 01:00:14.789 benji: Alright. So not not broad consensus, but no, no objections to that. 485 01:00:15.280 --> 01:00:20.460 benji: yeah. Ralph says it's a plus one through consistency. 486 01:00:20.520 --> 01:00:24.309 benji: Ii was separating out ghosting as a separate separate point. 487 01:00:24.560 --> 01:00:34.509 benji: so the position of the message, Scott, points out that there are technical problems here, but 488 01:00:35.210 --> 01:00:44.649 benji: that's not our concern. Our concern is usability, and we would like the position to be above the displays. 489 01:00:44.850 --> 01:00:47.830 benji: Section. I think we have, and agreement on that. 490 01:00:51.790 --> 01:01:00.710 benji: and I get some thumbs up that the position of the message should be higher on the page. Yes, thank you. Ralph suggested that we 491 01:01:02.030 --> 01:01:08.070 benji: update the title tag for the page, and mentioned there that the view is disabled. 492 01:01:09.220 --> 01:01:12.040 benji: I don't feel strongly about that. Other opinions 493 01:01:15.540 --> 01:01:16.970 benji: thumbs up from Ralph. 494 01:01:18.490 --> 01:01:24.530 benji: and I guess no one else feels strongly. So we don't have consensus there. But it's a suggestion 495 01:01:24.990 --> 01:01:36.240 benji: sort of as as an an intermediate stage, to get this issue through before we add it to the 496 01:01:36.750 --> 01:01:41.390 benji: drop list. To change the link to the views overview page 497 01:01:41.710 --> 01:01:51.079 benji: add an immediate enable link. Do we have consensus on that point? On that suggestion thumbs up from Aaron. I agree. 498 01:01:52.160 --> 01:01:53.869 benji: Thumbs up from Semo. 499 01:01:57.520 --> 01:02:02.869 benji: Okay, that's not strong consensus, but a consensus get a thumbs up from office. Also. 500 01:02:03.220 --> 01:02:13.259 benji: Scott's suggestion that we use the same color, the the pink that unpublished nodes use. I think that's a good idea. Anyone else 501 01:02:13.950 --> 01:02:17.490 benji: thumbs up from Ralph and Aaron Seemo. Okay? 502 01:02:18.560 --> 01:02:19.990 benji: And Thomas. 503 01:02:21.170 --> 01:02:22.250 And 504 01:02:22.490 --> 01:02:28.650 benji: I think we we already agreed on on that last point that it should be an info rather than boarding message. 505 01:02:29.770 --> 01:02:36.519 Aaron McHale: I'll just say that II don't know. Pink is necessarily better, but it's consistent, and I'm all for that. So? 506 01:02:36.640 --> 01:02:37.610 benji: Okay. 507 01:02:38.020 --> 01:02:41.689 benji: and who wants to? 508 01:02:42.020 --> 01:02:44.049 benji: Had a comment to this issue. 509 01:02:56.160 --> 01:03:00.990 benji: and Ralph volunteers in the chat. 510 01:03:01.790 --> 01:03:03.189 benji: And Scott. 511 01:03:03.510 --> 01:03:14.250 benji: It's another plus one consistency, and then suggests, think everywhere, which perhaps, is Jeff. Okay, we just 1 min left. So go ahead, Thomas, what? What do you want to? 512 01:03:15.010 --> 01:03:40.059 Thomas Howell: Okay, so really, briefly so that this is for everyone's visibility. We continue to follow up on an issue. That came up during some card sorting exercise that Christina ran for quite a while ago. Where we where I observed an issue with drupalisms and basically definitions, those types of things 513 01:03:40.060 --> 01:03:52.259 the issues morphed into something a little bit more regular in terms of discussions. We're meeting every 2 weeks. And then, really, this is still part of what it's like a sub team of what we do here in the Ux 514 01:03:52.430 --> 01:04:06.009 group. But more importantly, we recently have come to the conclusion that to do better information gathering on like what our existing drupalisms we wanted to tackle. 515 01:04:06.030 --> 01:04:08.440 creating a 516 01:04:08.930 --> 01:04:10.400 Thomas Howell: a 517 01:04:10.640 --> 01:04:35.809 Thomas Howell: my gosh! A controlled vocabulary for drupal. And as part of that we need to do some more like outreach and get visibility going. And so I and I guess sort of Ralph. We're tasked along, I guess, along with Aaron. Of bringing to everyone in this group. That we're we're hoping to put together some sort of 518 01:04:35.950 --> 01:05:04.180 Thomas Howell: I don't know. Test is the wrong word. But we wanna do something that can be released at Drupalcon or by drupal con, so that we can try and get the most people involved possible and getting opinions about drupalisms because it's a chicken in the egg scenario and it's a really long outstanding issue. And 519 01:05:04.430 --> 01:05:22.959 Thomas Howell: we need like active feedback and opinions from people as to whether or not this would work should we be reaching through different social media forums like, how should we be getting visibility up because we we need to get as much traction because related to this issue. There's a lot of 520 01:05:23.150 --> 01:05:24.260 pen to up 521 01:05:24.910 --> 01:05:36.500 Thomas Howell: tension around things like, I'm gonna use a controversial example. But, Node, there are people who hate the word node and don't want node being used anymore. 522 01:05:36.660 --> 01:05:39.550 Thomas Howell: The point of what we're working on is not 523 01:05:39.560 --> 01:06:04.530 Thomas Howell: to necessarily suggest that node has to be changed to fancy pants. We're not advocating for any type of solution. We're trying to make certain we have a controlled vocabulary. So we at least know what node is, so that we can have discussions about this, and it can launch other initiatives. So we're discussing the possibility of, should this be an initiative to discuss drupalisms. 524 01:06:04.700 --> 01:06:11.630 Thomas Howell: We're being very soft right now, because we don't want to make any firm commitments. But because this 525 01:06:11.670 --> 01:06:19.279 Thomas Howell: spawned from this group. We really want to make certain we're bringing it back to the ux team and the ux call first. 526 01:06:19.280 --> 01:06:42.190 Thomas Howell: And so hopefully, maybe next week, we can talk about this more. Our it won't be till Monday after that that we meet again. And if anyone's interested in coming to those Monday meetings, please let us know we'd love to involve you. Or if you're just interested in contributing to these lists of drupalisms. We've got documentation. We're working on. So thank you very much, Ralph or Aaron. Do you have anything you'd like to add? 527 01:06:45.260 --> 01:06:48.120 Aaron McHale: You covered it very well, thanks, Thomas. 528 01:06:49.250 --> 01:07:01.740 Aaron McHale: I just I actually, I just like to thank everyone's not here, but she's also put a lot of work into this, and she did it with myself. Ran up off at triple con. But yeah, and also a lot of work on this area. 529 01:07:01.870 --> 01:07:03.210 Thomas Howell: So it's love. 530 01:07:03.350 --> 01:07:29.599 Thomas Howell: Oh, that reminds me of the other key point. We are looking for. One or more volunteers who will be at Drupalcon to help us carry this banner? Because for certain. Emma Aaron and Ralph are not going to be at Drupalcon, Portland. The odds are heavily against me, because I'm currently a student. And so getting out. There is pretty unlikely. 531 01:07:29.600 --> 01:07:37.579 Thomas Howell: so I don't know if Christina would be interested. I don't know if you, Benji would be interested, or if Simo or anyone else. Scott. 532 01:07:37.620 --> 01:07:45.230 Thomas Howell: Anyone who isn't here today. So reach out and we'll talk about it more next week if there's time. Thank you. 533 01:07:45.370 --> 01:07:46.690 benji: Okay, thank you 534 01:07:48.010 --> 01:07:53.279 benji: thanks all for coming. Sorry we ran a few minutes late. See you next week. 535 01:07:55.460 --> 01:07:58.210 Thomas Howell: Thanks, Benji. Thanks. Everyone. Have a good weekend. 536 01:07:58.690 --> 01:08:00.919 Ralf Koller: Everyone have a nice weekend you, too. Bye.