WEBVTT 184 00:19:17.960 --> 00:19:27.409 benji: Welcome! This is the tuple usability meeting for March first, 2024. I'm Benjy Fischer, moderating and sharing my screen also. Here are Aaron Mikkel. 185 00:19:27.430 --> 00:19:31.789 benji: author Shell, Ralph Koehler and Thomas Hell. Thanks all for joining us. 186 00:19:32.310 --> 00:19:36.249 benji: and we're looking right now at issue 187 00:19:36.510 --> 00:19:39.280 benji: 2, 5, 1, 4, 2, 1, 8 188 00:19:40.130 --> 00:19:48.760 benji: regression pages, manage fields, manage, form, manage, display. should include name of content, type, or entity. 189 00:19:50.060 --> 00:19:54.340 benji: so let me see. 190 00:19:55.130 --> 00:19:58.280 benji: I forgot to. 191 00:20:01.210 --> 00:20:02.310 benji: How about 192 00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:07.810 benji: prepare a sample site? It'll just take me a minute. 193 00:20:20.970 --> 00:20:28.730 benji: So a does anyone else have a site ready. I need to give a Github Token or something. 194 00:20:31.060 --> 00:20:33.500 Ralf Koller: I have a test site here 1 s. 195 00:20:46.270 --> 00:20:55.869 benji: So I think this screenshot gives the idea that when you're managing a content type, manage fields, manage the form, display. 196 00:20:56.920 --> 00:20:57.979 benji: Thank you, Ralph. 197 00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:03.850 benji: and Admin Admin. 198 00:21:12.490 --> 00:21:13.980 benji: Go to 199 00:21:17.380 --> 00:21:20.210 benji: structure content types. 200 00:21:25.330 --> 00:21:33.550 benji: So what we're talking about is page, title, not the title element, but the part in the 201 00:21:33.570 --> 00:21:41.659 benji: that just says manage fields and does not mention what content type we're looking at. The only way to 202 00:21:41.870 --> 00:21:53.320 benji: tell that is to look at the breadcrumbs and the suggestion is to expand the title instead of just manage fields. Say, manage fields 203 00:21:53.450 --> 00:22:04.340 Ralf Koller: for content type. Basic page no, that's outdated. It's in comment. Number 101 was the latest state we agreed on. 204 00:22:05.640 --> 00:22:06.930 benji: Okay. 205 00:22:08.550 --> 00:22:09.520 benji: So 206 00:22:12.900 --> 00:22:14.670 benji: down here at the bottom. 207 00:22:16.350 --> 00:22:19.460 benji: then 101. 208 00:22:21.270 --> 00:22:22.259 benji: There we go. 209 00:22:31.060 --> 00:22:32.290 benji: So 210 00:22:35.090 --> 00:22:39.010 benji: so the name, and then the entity type thing, so 211 00:22:40.490 --> 00:22:44.400 benji: example. article, content type. 212 00:22:48.300 --> 00:23:00.590 benji: And then the primary tab would be manage fields. So instead of manage fields up here which duplicates the primary tab. 213 00:23:01.510 --> 00:23:07.090 benji: the 214 00:23:10.070 --> 00:23:11.500 benji: let's change this. 215 00:23:14.890 --> 00:23:20.660 benji: Let's change that to article so it would be consistent over all of the primary tabs. Is that right? 216 00:23:21.910 --> 00:23:22.610 Ralf Koller: Yep. 217 00:23:23.620 --> 00:23:32.169 Ralf Koller: article content type, basically was the idea cause in case you have, for example, a view or a taxonomy of vocabulary, or 218 00:23:32.540 --> 00:23:40.570 Ralf Koller: whatever else entity type with the same name. In that way way it would be clear this article content type. Basically. 219 00:23:41.660 --> 00:23:49.929 Ralf Koller: Okay. So would you also remove the word edit here? Oh, if you go back to the request, add to the 220 00:23:50.080 --> 00:23:54.549 Ralf Koller: comment, number 101, and scroll down a bit. 221 00:23:56.390 --> 00:24:02.129 Ralf Koller: we have 2 patterns, basically back. Then we've agreed on 222 00:24:02.800 --> 00:24:04.609 Ralf Koller: front loading and 223 00:24:04.790 --> 00:24:09.060 Ralf Koller: visually hiding visually at in a visually hidden span. 224 00:24:09.270 --> 00:24:11.910 Ralf Koller: were basically, the 225 00:24:13.470 --> 00:24:19.129 Ralf Koller: primary tabs. Label is front loaded there. So you basically have edit 226 00:24:19.360 --> 00:24:22.990 Ralf Koller: article content type or manage fields 227 00:24:23.180 --> 00:24:25.799 Ralf Koller: for article content type and so forth 228 00:24:26.560 --> 00:24:33.980 Ralf Koller: that way for screen reader users due to the fact that a tab is an actual page instead of an 229 00:24:35.520 --> 00:24:49.829 Ralf Koller: attach. Basically there is the necessity that the page title and the covers the entire page in the context. And therefore it's more specific for screen reader users. 230 00:24:51.080 --> 00:24:54.189 benji: Okay, so are you saying we've agreed on pattern a 231 00:24:54.330 --> 00:25:00.030 Ralf Koller: action primary tab. 232 00:25:00.550 --> 00:25:02.629 Ralf Koller: I think he has. 233 00:25:03.660 --> 00:25:08.020 benji: Let's opened up this screenshot 234 00:25:08.630 --> 00:25:13.170 benji: so the would be article content type. 235 00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:18.290 benji: And the tabs are the same as they currently are. 236 00:25:19.380 --> 00:25:23.869 benji: and if you take a look on the left side, you see. 237 00:25:24.150 --> 00:25:25.850 Ralf Koller: leave a short hit and span 238 00:25:30.090 --> 00:25:33.069 benji: zoom in a lot to see that 239 00:25:34.690 --> 00:25:37.829 benji: manage form display for article. 240 00:25:49.210 --> 00:25:53.189 benji: Alright. So so that's the the current proposal. 241 00:25:54.200 --> 00:25:55.570 benji: So. 242 00:26:00.030 --> 00:26:04.199 Ralf Koller: and this issue was then postponed. 243 00:26:04.270 --> 00:26:12.910 Ralf Koller: And in the other issue. I've linked the contextualize issue. It's issue number 3370946, 244 00:26:13.920 --> 00:26:20.000 Ralf Koller: I'll I'll slow slow down. So let's let's just make sure that 245 00:26:20.290 --> 00:26:24.319 benji: e, everyone is caught up. 246 00:26:25.070 --> 00:26:30.459 benji: so the proposal is to use the same h one for all of these pages. 247 00:26:31.640 --> 00:26:36.270 benji: and then have a visually hidden element 248 00:26:36.640 --> 00:26:41.920 benji: that duplicates the primary tab. 249 00:26:42.290 --> 00:26:46.359 benji: I got that right. Any questions about that suggestion? 250 00:26:52.360 --> 00:26:55.560 benji: Okay? And what is it postponed on? 251 00:26:56.550 --> 00:27:04.760 Ralf Koller: I've also posted in the chat. The contextualized issue issue number 3370946. 252 00:27:18.430 --> 00:27:22.389 benji: Each title should contextualize the local navigation. 253 00:27:23.980 --> 00:27:31.389 benji: there basically was the wishly hidden span 254 00:27:31.990 --> 00:27:35.190 Ralf Koller: edit. And the 255 00:27:35.410 --> 00:27:39.379 Ralf Koller: let's how to describe it. It's been a while I've 256 00:27:39.690 --> 00:27:45.340 Ralf Koller: looked at it. But it's basically the under the hood. That technical implementation 257 00:27:46.480 --> 00:27:51.189 Ralf Koller: and from my understanding, the 258 00:27:51.210 --> 00:27:57.919 Ralf Koller: regression issue could become basically the wordsmithing for it. The second step. 259 00:27:59.480 --> 00:28:01.600 benji: Okay. So 260 00:28:05.650 --> 00:28:06.730 benji: so this 261 00:28:08.120 --> 00:28:09.430 benji: issue 262 00:28:11.570 --> 00:28:16.849 benji: fairly recently was created last June last summer 263 00:28:17.800 --> 00:28:21.169 benji: last last summer for those of us in the northern hemisphere, anyway. 264 00:28:21.450 --> 00:28:40.570 benji: And what does this need to move it forward, says it needs review. Does it need technical review? It doesn't say that it needs usability review, does it? No, it's mainly technically you at this point. I've commented on that issue 265 00:28:42.470 --> 00:28:45.990 Ralf Koller: a while ago. 1 s, I've 266 00:28:46.580 --> 00:28:47.500 Ralf Koller: such 267 00:28:49.180 --> 00:28:51.280 Ralf Koller: either issue number 268 00:28:54.050 --> 00:29:00.770 Ralf Koller: and also created a Google talk. Yeah, in comment number 20, 269 00:29:06.840 --> 00:29:10.480 Ralf Koller: where, if I've basically summarized 270 00:29:10.620 --> 00:29:12.989 Ralf Koller: the discussions from the other issue. 271 00:29:26.410 --> 00:29:39.960 Ralf Koller: Oh, and I think Laurie also commented in comment number 28, and is referring to an usability meeting in August, where we've talked about the 272 00:29:40.220 --> 00:29:41.160 Ralf Koller: topic. 273 00:29:51.820 --> 00:29:56.330 Ralf Koller: And I link in comment number 21 is also the Google Doc 274 00:29:56.580 --> 00:29:58.860 Ralf Koller: illustrating the current. 275 00:29:59.120 --> 00:30:01.370 Ralf Koller: I've posted a link in the chat. 276 00:30:04.590 --> 00:30:11.320 benji: Okay, so again, what? What are the next steps? What? What does this issue need to push it forward? Technical review at this point. 277 00:30:11.430 --> 00:30:18.729 Ralf Koller: It's technically real. But the thing I was thinking about for us to discuss is basically those 278 00:30:19.800 --> 00:30:25.050 Ralf Koller: cause the regression issue and and the whole pattern we've agreed on 279 00:30:25.340 --> 00:30:35.480 Ralf Koller: ping ponging with the accessibility meeting was basically just for content types. But things like, for example, how to handle. 280 00:30:35.910 --> 00:30:40.109 Ralf Koller: as I've mentioned, vocabularies or things like 281 00:30:40.290 --> 00:30:46.879 Ralf Koller: the case for views that are disabled, or for modes and other parts of the 282 00:30:48.210 --> 00:30:50.230 Ralf Koller: Ui 283 00:30:50.820 --> 00:30:55.910 Ralf Koller: you can see basically or get an idea in that linked spreadsheet 284 00:30:55.920 --> 00:31:01.220 Ralf Koller: where you have for every page, more or less. 285 00:31:01.370 --> 00:31:10.030 Ralf Koller: or page type, and the H. One and the page title, what's it's currently as is and what the suggestions are. 286 00:31:15.240 --> 00:31:29.530 Ralf Koller: And Laurie went currently with the other way around, not front loading, but following the pattern used in the breadcrumbs, meaning, for example, basic block manage fields or 287 00:31:29.820 --> 00:31:32.220 Ralf Koller: article managed fields and so forth. 288 00:31:37.400 --> 00:31:41.880 benji: So is is that something that needs to be discussed, whether to 289 00:31:42.540 --> 00:31:47.190 benji: yeah. For example. 290 00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:56.029 Ralf Koller: should it be front-loaded or shouldn't be front-loaded? Laurie suggested to do some user testing in that regard. 291 00:31:56.290 --> 00:32:06.629 Ralf Koller: And also, as I said, all those cases like how to handle, for example, disabled, and should it be reflected in the as well, what I would say? 292 00:32:06.830 --> 00:32:11.200 Ralf Koller: Yes, and then the page, title, and all the other sick. 293 00:32:11.580 --> 00:32:16.969 Ralf Koller: All those other contexts listed in that Google sheet. 294 00:32:18.300 --> 00:32:20.559 Ralf Koller: And yeah, we haven't covered those 295 00:32:20.740 --> 00:32:25.879 Ralf Koller: back. Then we were only in a regression issue. We were just focused on content types. 296 00:32:31.900 --> 00:32:34.239 benji: Okay? So I'm still not sure 297 00:32:34.520 --> 00:32:40.430 benji: what decisions have to be made, what what we can do to help move either these issues forward. 298 00:32:42.520 --> 00:32:44.590 benji: And I think that 299 00:32:45.360 --> 00:32:54.969 benji: once we figure out what to do for content types and and get that implemented, we could move on to more general entity type site. 300 00:32:56.080 --> 00:33:01.499 benji: some way to manage that taxonomy and platforms and and so forth. 301 00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:07.760 benji: But but what what can we do today? What what decisions have to be made. 302 00:33:16.140 --> 00:33:21.959 benji: We're we're not going to use this meeting to give a technical review. 303 00:33:22.650 --> 00:33:24.150 Ralf Koller: No, 304 00:33:32.800 --> 00:33:37.700 benji: and the regression issue is waiting for that one to be committed is is that even 305 00:33:38.980 --> 00:33:42.600 benji: Are people working on it actively? 306 00:33:42.990 --> 00:33:44.740 Ralf Koller: Yes. 307 00:33:45.740 --> 00:33:48.049 benji: just today. 308 00:33:48.920 --> 00:33:51.630 benji: right? So it's if Alex Pot is 309 00:33:52.770 --> 00:33:55.690 benji: making comments on on the merch request then. 310 00:34:03.080 --> 00:34:04.670 benji: but I think that's 311 00:34:06.190 --> 00:34:09.079 benji: probably probably going to get get fixed soon. 312 00:34:30.060 --> 00:34:31.050 benji: I'm 313 00:34:33.440 --> 00:34:37.479 benji: yes, II I'm not sure what what we can do at this point for these issues. 314 00:34:47.300 --> 00:34:53.510 benji: so II see, by the way, that Semo Helston has joined us. 315 00:34:53.620 --> 00:34:57.899 benji: and we're we're still sort of stuck, not not knowing 316 00:34:58.740 --> 00:35:07.540 benji: what what issue we we should spend our time on for for the rest of this meeting. and I'm afraid we're already halfway through the hour. 317 00:35:13.900 --> 00:35:18.050 benji: Simo has a suggestion in the chat. 318 00:35:19.460 --> 00:35:31.950 benji: Have a look at this. It is issue 3, 3, one. 3, 6, 1, 6. Ability to mark image media as decorative. 319 00:35:33.680 --> 00:35:41.190 benji: simo, can you unmute yourself and tell us what this issue is about? 320 00:35:42.120 --> 00:35:56.090 Simo Hellsten: Yes, so this is mostly. I think, about luck. This is about accessibility, but also. I think, usability So this was something that came up 321 00:35:56.160 --> 00:35:58.470 Simo Hellsten: on accessibility channel. 322 00:35:59.040 --> 00:36:01.340 Simo Hellsten: But I was thinking that 323 00:36:01.560 --> 00:36:03.240 Simo Hellsten: it might be also 324 00:36:04.710 --> 00:36:08.410 Simo Hellsten: to check check here for 325 00:36:09.130 --> 00:36:11.610 Simo Hellsten: the usability. 326 00:36:12.290 --> 00:36:23.169 Simo Hellsten: so there are a couple of comments. I posted a comment on my golf about a week ago, and and there are some 327 00:36:27.830 --> 00:36:33.760 Simo Hellsten: some changes, but I don't. I didn't have time to check those. If there is something 328 00:36:34.180 --> 00:36:35.590 Simo Hellsten: we're already done. 329 00:36:38.910 --> 00:36:39.940 Simo Hellsten: so that 330 00:36:41.150 --> 00:36:43.739 Simo Hellsten: there is comment by wim lias 331 00:36:45.650 --> 00:36:46.560 Simo Hellsten: there. 332 00:36:50.220 --> 00:36:52.660 Simo Hellsten: So it's about consistency 333 00:36:53.820 --> 00:36:58.199 Simo Hellsten: reviewing consistency between drupal image and drupal media. 334 00:37:00.790 --> 00:37:01.830 benji: Okay. 335 00:37:02.460 --> 00:37:05.520 Simo Hellsten: there, on, on one of the later comments. 336 00:37:12.110 --> 00:37:16.320 benji: Oh, again, what what can we do to help move this issue forward? 337 00:37:16.500 --> 00:37:17.230 Simo Hellsten: Yep. 338 00:37:17.490 --> 00:37:20.070 benji: so there is a 339 00:37:20.260 --> 00:37:25.770 Simo Hellsten: yeah. So there is a animated gift on that like in the 340 00:37:25.930 --> 00:37:29.309 Simo Hellsten: will. The user interface changes in the issue. Summary. 341 00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:40.130 Ralf Koller: Benji. I supplied the March request to the side you're using. 342 00:37:45.760 --> 00:37:52.090 Simo Hellsten: So here one of the usability issues. I think here in the proposed 343 00:37:53.250 --> 00:37:53.980 Simo Hellsten: up 344 00:37:55.360 --> 00:37:58.540 Simo Hellsten: version is that that 345 00:38:02.360 --> 00:38:11.120 Simo Hellsten: and the toggle toggle button moves when you activate it or deactivate it. And then 346 00:38:12.940 --> 00:38:16.160 Simo Hellsten: let's see if we can. 347 00:38:16.500 --> 00:38:18.360 Simo Hellsten: Yeah, get a live 348 00:38:18.390 --> 00:38:25.140 benji: version rather than the animated gif. So the idea is to upload an image. Is that right? 349 00:38:26.020 --> 00:38:26.790 Ralf Koller: Yes. 350 00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:27.720 Simo Hellsten: yeah. 351 00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:30.260 benji: this will be media. 352 00:38:35.010 --> 00:38:35.860 benji: Oh. 353 00:38:38.410 --> 00:38:41.990 benji: that's just a screenshot of the people attending this meeting. 354 00:38:42.420 --> 00:38:45.340 benji: and the 355 00:38:45.600 --> 00:38:47.949 benji: the text alternative is that the 356 00:38:49.360 --> 00:38:53.059 Simo Hellsten: new part? Or is it this checkbox? It's the toggle. 357 00:38:53.280 --> 00:38:54.260 benji: Yeah. Okay. 358 00:38:55.050 --> 00:38:56.060 benji: So 359 00:38:59.640 --> 00:39:03.820 benji: the text, the alt text or the text alternative is a 360 00:39:03.930 --> 00:39:05.199 benji: L at the 361 00:39:07.570 --> 00:39:09.950 benji: in attendees. 362 00:39:11.570 --> 00:39:20.209 benji: and oh, I see I get it both at the top and the bottom. Maybe I'll 363 00:39:21.460 --> 00:39:23.269 benji: close the browser tools. 364 00:39:24.140 --> 00:39:28.680 benji: So 365 00:39:29.480 --> 00:39:39.760 benji: for for an image where the image does contain information, I should supply a text alternative, but if it were purely decorative 366 00:39:40.350 --> 00:39:42.049 benji: image, I would 367 00:39:42.210 --> 00:39:45.960 benji: click this toggle, and then presumably, yes, the 368 00:39:46.620 --> 00:39:48.220 benji: the box would go away. 369 00:39:52.500 --> 00:39:56.140 benji: Okay, so go ahead, Sema. What's the what's the issue to be discussed? 370 00:39:58.130 --> 00:40:03.990 Simo Hellsten: yeah. Let's see, you had it on one line. 371 00:40:04.030 --> 00:40:05.220 Simo Hellsten: all of that 372 00:40:05.590 --> 00:40:07.659 Simo Hellsten: and see. I could see now. 373 00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:14.160 Simo Hellsten: And so that works differently from what? When I tested it. 374 00:40:16.020 --> 00:40:18.839 benji: Should I try and narrower screen? 375 00:40:26.070 --> 00:40:36.900 Simo Hellsten: yeah. Or maybe it's maybe. Choose an image 376 00:40:36.920 --> 00:40:39.419 Simo Hellsten: is this you, Umami? 377 00:40:40.600 --> 00:40:41.300 benji: I'm 378 00:40:42.340 --> 00:40:50.380 Simo Hellsten: no, no, it's standard. No. Okay. So does does it have an image that already has alternative. Text. 379 00:40:53.100 --> 00:40:56.760 benji: no, but I could. 380 00:40:57.120 --> 00:40:59.040 benji: I could give it alt text 381 00:41:03.180 --> 00:41:07.630 Ralf Koller: once. 1 s is just install the media and media library 382 00:41:10.160 --> 00:41:11.250 Ralf Koller: installed. Now 383 00:41:16.370 --> 00:41:17.940 benji: I'm going to go back to 384 00:41:18.950 --> 00:41:24.100 benji: White Screen. So I've given it alt text 385 00:41:25.580 --> 00:41:26.809 benji: and let me. 386 00:41:28.020 --> 00:41:28.860 Aaron McHale: I'm sent. 387 00:41:29.690 --> 00:41:30.919 benji: Let me save. 388 00:41:33.480 --> 00:41:36.020 Aaron McHale: So I'm the judge. 389 00:41:37.010 --> 00:41:37.800 benji: and then 390 00:41:41.260 --> 00:41:48.839 benji: let's just look at it. Check that. It does have alt text. Yes, it does have alt text 391 00:41:49.850 --> 00:41:52.909 benji: And if I go back to edit it 392 00:42:02.870 --> 00:42:06.450 benji: at this point. I don't see the options 393 00:42:08.250 --> 00:42:10.489 benji: or changing the Alt text 394 00:42:19.190 --> 00:42:22.119 benji: link. I can do alignment. 395 00:42:24.380 --> 00:42:26.490 Simo Hellsten: but it looks as though. 396 00:42:27.100 --> 00:42:29.049 Simo Hellsten: how about that? I, 397 00:42:29.430 --> 00:42:32.589 Simo Hellsten: the wither blacks line above it. The first one. 398 00:42:33.460 --> 00:42:35.170 Simo Hellsten: Okay, yeah. 399 00:42:38.730 --> 00:42:41.250 Simo Hellsten: Okay. So that's a and 400 00:42:44.070 --> 00:42:57.379 Simo Hellsten: and one of the things here is that the toggle buttons are supposed to be like, take like a take force in it immediately. So if you check like toggle, that decorative image. 401 00:42:58.480 --> 00:43:01.439 Simo Hellsten: The standard would be that now that it toggled. 402 00:43:01.960 --> 00:43:04.329 Simo Hellsten: it's decorative image. So 403 00:43:04.850 --> 00:43:12.040 Simo Hellsten: does it. How about those? Yes and no symbols? Does it need those 404 00:43:12.050 --> 00:43:14.130 Simo Hellsten: just click away. Yeah. 405 00:43:14.520 --> 00:43:21.580 Simo Hellsten: so does does it need apply button. So maybe check, click and check from the code. 406 00:43:25.110 --> 00:43:26.740 benji: Then if I go back. 407 00:43:28.600 --> 00:43:29.760 benji: yeah. 408 00:43:33.870 --> 00:43:39.900 benji: it seems to me that the main problem with toggle buttons is is that I'm I'm never sure 409 00:43:40.460 --> 00:43:43.770 benji: whether clicking it is going to. 410 00:43:45.710 --> 00:43:48.189 benji: I'm never sure what the current state is 411 00:43:48.310 --> 00:43:53.630 Simo Hellsten: II really don't like toggle buttons. 412 00:43:53.740 --> 00:44:04.570 Simo Hellsten: One of the common definitions is that the the toggle button should take effect immediately without a submit button or apply button. So that's something. It's from a 413 00:44:05.260 --> 00:44:10.620 Simo Hellsten: I think. there is this. I don't remember her name from, but from a 414 00:44:10.710 --> 00:44:16.810 Simo Hellsten: normally the same group. There is an canniba, one of the articles there that kind of defines 415 00:44:17.280 --> 00:44:21.089 Simo Hellsten: when to use toggle button. So I think toggle button here. 416 00:44:21.190 --> 00:44:33.649 Simo Hellsten: It's kind of a it's a problem with, because we have thought that apply and cancel button. So using a toggle button might not be the best idea. If it doesn't. 417 00:44:34.930 --> 00:44:36.410 Simo Hellsten: apply the change. 418 00:44:37.350 --> 00:44:39.369 Yeah, Thomas, you wanna add something here? 419 00:44:40.190 --> 00:44:42.159 Thomas Howell: Just sort of 420 00:44:42.340 --> 00:44:48.579 Thomas Howell: question and a comment with applying something immediately. The 421 00:44:48.960 --> 00:45:04.389 Thomas Howell: is the expected behavior that it continues to store the text alternative in the dB. And it's just not applied. Or is it deleted upon turning this into a decorative image. 422 00:45:05.160 --> 00:45:16.749 Thomas Howell: And second question I had was, I have seen like, really, let's just experiment see what happens. And answering your first question. 423 00:45:16.860 --> 00:45:20.770 benji: so check the toggle box, submit it, which is. 424 00:45:20.910 --> 00:45:32.190 benji: as that seema says, problematic. Save the page, and then we can. We'll put this in our browser tools. and 425 00:45:33.210 --> 00:45:36.100 benji: I don't see any alt attribute here 426 00:45:36.920 --> 00:45:39.050 Ralf Koller: just to talk to the second step. 427 00:45:39.670 --> 00:45:42.319 benji: Alt equals empty string. 428 00:45:42.430 --> 00:45:43.900 Simo Hellsten: And so that's correct. 429 00:45:44.550 --> 00:45:49.249 Simo Hellsten: And when you edit it? Does it still have that somehow, somewhere. 430 00:45:49.370 --> 00:45:51.130 Thomas Howell: Correct with the files? 431 00:45:52.330 --> 00:46:00.480 Thomas Howell: Okay? So that answers your first question. Right, Thomas. No, no. The the question is, when you turn it back from a deep decorative. 432 00:46:02.120 --> 00:46:03.790 Thomas Howell: and you detoggle it 433 00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:15.630 Thomas Howell: or try toggle it off. So it does delete the text from the the database. So. I think that's probably why it hasn't apply, because it's doing something to delete something 434 00:46:15.780 --> 00:46:24.759 Thomas Howell: that's been stored in the dB, otherwise, if someone accidentally clicked decorative image, and it applied immediately. Then it would delete something in the database 435 00:46:25.920 --> 00:46:38.399 Thomas Howell: irrecoverably. So. That's why it's in my mind. That's why I would expect it to add a confirmation step, which is what the confirm and decline do. 436 00:46:39.840 --> 00:46:46.030 benji: I don't think the database gets updated until you click. Save for the page as a whole. 437 00:46:46.670 --> 00:46:49.720 Thomas Howell: Could we just test that real fast? 438 00:46:50.940 --> 00:46:56.550 benji: Okay? So sorry about this. Some text. 439 00:46:57.650 --> 00:47:00.140 benji: save that 440 00:47:03.920 --> 00:47:07.030 benji: inspect the old has some texts of that 441 00:47:07.220 --> 00:47:08.360 benji: saved. 442 00:47:09.370 --> 00:47:11.300 benji: Go back and edit 443 00:47:14.060 --> 00:47:21.109 benji: and I toggle. 444 00:47:22.100 --> 00:47:27.000 benji: I submit this. The Alt text is gone from 445 00:47:30.710 --> 00:47:42.470 benji: current, but I haven't saved the page. If I now abandon the edit tab and go to view without saving. I expect that the Alt text will still be there. 446 00:47:43.360 --> 00:47:45.770 benji: Yes. okay. 447 00:47:46.090 --> 00:47:46.810 Thomas Howell: yep. 448 00:47:49.410 --> 00:47:54.390 Simo Hellsten: hmm. And there is another use case with that. 449 00:47:54.720 --> 00:48:02.170 Simo Hellsten: when there is media oil that is added. then it has 450 00:48:05.660 --> 00:48:11.100 Simo Hellsten: it, it. It displays default, alternative text 451 00:48:11.720 --> 00:48:18.480 Simo Hellsten: and the overall override default, alternative text fields. 452 00:48:18.550 --> 00:48:23.560 benji: adding media in a minute. Aaron. what do you want to say? 453 00:48:24.270 --> 00:48:25.650 Aaron McHale: Thanks. 454 00:48:26.630 --> 00:48:31.419 Aaron McHale: I guess I'm gonna say something slightly more. 455 00:48:31.960 --> 00:48:43.120 Aaron McHale: generally about this, which is. if I was a content edge for coming to this. and I saw a decorative toggle on the edit form. 456 00:48:43.260 --> 00:48:46.089 Aaron McHale: I don't think it's 457 00:48:46.380 --> 00:48:57.220 Aaron McHale: like II don't II don't get a sense of what that does like. It's not. It's not describing the like. All I can see when you do that is that it hides and shows the alt text. 458 00:48:57.600 --> 00:49:00.220 Aaron McHale: And so if that's the effect of it. 459 00:49:01.150 --> 00:49:02.720 Aaron McHale: if I'm an editor. 460 00:49:03.530 --> 00:49:06.909 and I don't want to put all text in. But look, I can just turn it off. 461 00:49:07.340 --> 00:49:13.910 Aaron McHale: and an editor might do that for every image, because maybe they don't want to put all text in. So II don't. 462 00:49:14.440 --> 00:49:21.570 Aaron McHale: I'm kind of torn between the idea like that. Maybe some images are decorative, and or you don't text. But also this kind of 463 00:49:21.790 --> 00:49:35.969 Aaron McHale: feels like this doesn't feel like a good idea to me, because I don't. II think in general, if you're adding an image. You should. You should have to provide some, you know, useful all types. So I'm I'm struggling to see 464 00:49:36.080 --> 00:49:43.030 Aaron McHale: why this is something we should have in core like fine. If I can trip modules, add it. That's like whatever. But like 465 00:49:43.540 --> 00:49:47.300 Aaron McHale: to have this in triple core. I'm just not comfortable with. 466 00:49:52.770 --> 00:49:53.870 benji: okay? 467 00:49:55.160 --> 00:50:07.360 benji: And yeah, it. It does seem unnecessarily complicated. If you want to have the decorative image, you can just leave the Alt text blank instead of making it a required field. 468 00:50:08.120 --> 00:50:15.020 Aaron McHale: yeah, II don't know. Maybe it's doing something else, but that that my first kind of point was that it's 469 00:50:15.410 --> 00:50:24.610 Aaron McHale: the text decorative areas doesn't really describe what's what's happening. So II don't know. The only thing I can see is that it turns off the alt text, which, if that's the only thing it does. 470 00:50:25.670 --> 00:50:31.769 Aaron McHale: I'm not particularly happy. But also say as you just said, Benji, it's kind of like, well, you could just leave it blank. But 471 00:50:32.630 --> 00:50:38.499 Aaron McHale: yeah, it's unless it's doing something else. Then this kind of doesn't seem really that useful. 472 00:50:38.920 --> 00:50:40.139 benji: Okay, Thomas. 473 00:50:40.970 --> 00:50:58.579 Thomas Howell: Yeah, II agree with everything that's just been discussed. But in addition to that, for people who don't necessarily know what a decorative image is, this reads when I first look at it now, like this entire thing is a decorative image. 474 00:50:58.710 --> 00:51:05.739 Thomas Howell: and the toggle is just turning alt text off and on. I'm not connecting 475 00:51:06.300 --> 00:51:11.479 Thomas Howell: the toggle button to decorative image, because it looks like it's just calling that entire 476 00:51:11.980 --> 00:51:27.959 Thomas Howell: line that, like everything from the left end of the box to the right end of boxes, if that's all just decorative image, it doesn't it it to me it's trying to be too concise. And in doing that it it changes the meaning of what decorative image 477 00:51:28.700 --> 00:51:31.440 Thomas Howell: says to me the the word decorative image? 478 00:51:31.560 --> 00:51:43.590 benji: Right? So I look at this, and this is not a decorative image. I do want to add alt text to it, and I get confused because this whole panel seems to apply for decorative images, which is not what this is 479 00:51:43.730 --> 00:51:45.879 benji: correct. Go ahead. Ralph. 480 00:51:47.500 --> 00:51:52.580 Ralf Koller: Yeah, but removing the toggle for decorative image has the other problem that 481 00:51:52.900 --> 00:51:59.749 Ralf Koller: sh! What I suppose was the intention to mitigate with adding that toggle is the case that 482 00:52:00.500 --> 00:52:18.770 Ralf Koller: you can just leave the Alt field empty out, text field empty. That would lead to people and doesn't make. Don't make it required leads to people just clicking in a way, and don't add alt text at all, and that was the intention to distinguish between. 483 00:52:19.130 --> 00:52:22.120 Ralf Koller: Add a deliberate option that something is 484 00:52:22.840 --> 00:52:45.410 Ralf Koller: a decorative image, and that the requirement, otherwise an all text, has to be added. But I've also added a comment in the chat in comment number 24, john Chamism suggests to add some sort of description or instructional text to provide some context to it, basically 485 00:52:45.430 --> 00:52:54.699 Ralf Koller: decorative. What? What the option is basically about this image contains no meaningful information should be ignored by the screen readers, or something like that, he suggested. 486 00:52:58.330 --> 00:53:02.520 Ralf Koller: And just one additional comment 487 00:53:02.620 --> 00:53:05.329 Ralf Koller: when the toggle button 488 00:53:05.370 --> 00:53:08.509 Ralf Koller: is deactivated, 489 00:53:09.850 --> 00:53:18.100 Ralf Koller: when it's activated, or and no alt text is entered. It's not directly apparent that the 490 00:53:18.600 --> 00:53:23.630 Ralf Koller: confirm button is disabled. That is also not that clear? 491 00:53:25.570 --> 00:53:26.690 benji: I'm sorry. What? 492 00:53:26.860 --> 00:53:30.550 Ralf Koller: If you go to the alt text. 493 00:53:31.460 --> 00:53:32.140 benji: Okay? 494 00:53:32.790 --> 00:53:35.859 Ralf Koller: And just delete the alt text, some text. 495 00:53:37.730 --> 00:53:40.100 Ralf Koller: And yeah, add again. Something 496 00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:43.069 Ralf Koller: just type. 497 00:53:43.230 --> 00:53:46.850 Ralf Koller: Yeah, you see the the check button, the check marks. 498 00:53:47.620 --> 00:53:52.549 Ralf Koller: Yeah. Yeah. And now remove the text again and watch 499 00:53:52.910 --> 00:53:54.609 Ralf Koller: at the same time that. Yeah. 500 00:53:54.840 --> 00:53:59.029 Ralf Koller: it's not directly apparent that it's that one is disabled. 501 00:53:59.100 --> 00:54:03.790 Simo Hellsten: Oh, yeah, there is a slight change of color, like, just very little. 502 00:54:09.360 --> 00:54:13.029 benji: Yeah, this this whole widget seems very problematic. 503 00:54:16.120 --> 00:54:18.509 benji: Aaron, go ahead. 504 00:54:20.350 --> 00:54:21.350 Aaron McHale: So 505 00:54:21.540 --> 00:54:30.800 Aaron McHale: What I was going to say I'm going to prefix it with another question. So I understand, can you, when you add an image. 506 00:54:31.710 --> 00:54:36.679 Aaron McHale: can you add an image without adding alt text? Because what we're seeing here is that 507 00:54:37.230 --> 00:54:45.970 Aaron McHale: if you cannot amend image without adding alt text. But then you add alt text, then you can't remove the alt text. It would seem 508 00:54:46.680 --> 00:54:51.410 Aaron McHale: so like when you added that image, Benji, did it require you to add alt text? 509 00:54:52.260 --> 00:54:56.280 benji: I don't think so. Let me try add adding another image 510 00:54:57.980 --> 00:54:58.880 and 511 00:55:07.010 --> 00:55:08.240 benji: Oh. 512 00:55:09.330 --> 00:55:10.810 benji: I'm afraid of. 513 00:55:11.580 --> 00:55:15.099 Aaron McHale: I'm just gonna add the same image again, because 514 00:55:15.540 --> 00:55:20.039 benji: So I guess this is the new one. 515 00:55:20.830 --> 00:55:32.800 Aaron McHale: Yeah. So it looks like, II guess that wasn't totally II saw it pop up, but it did pull up with the the old text area, and then also add it, have that text pre filled so like I guess it would. 516 00:55:33.040 --> 00:55:35.660 Aaron McHale: Maybe it kind of forces you. It's not like. 517 00:55:35.670 --> 00:55:45.459 Aaron McHale: I guess that's another problematic part about this interface. But it's yeah. It does seem to like, force you to add alt text. Yeah, it gives me this little add missing alternative text. 518 00:55:46.080 --> 00:55:47.550 Aaron McHale: which down here? 519 00:55:48.900 --> 00:55:51.340 benji: And if I ignore that. 520 00:55:53.730 --> 00:55:55.700 benji: and I still get this warning 521 00:55:55.800 --> 00:55:58.870 benji: if I continue to ignore it and save 522 00:56:00.780 --> 00:56:03.320 benji: save still works. So 523 00:56:03.540 --> 00:56:05.439 benji: that message is 524 00:56:07.600 --> 00:56:10.990 benji: just to a warning. 525 00:56:12.040 --> 00:56:14.800 benji: this doesn't have any. 526 00:56:15.520 --> 00:56:20.850 benji: It doesn't even have alt equals empty string. I just don't see an old attribute at all here 527 00:56:21.330 --> 00:56:23.810 benji: unless I'm missing it. 528 00:56:25.650 --> 00:56:27.230 benji: The one above 529 00:56:28.540 --> 00:56:36.790 benji: does does have the alt text. So so the answer is, yes, I can add an image without alt text. 530 00:56:36.940 --> 00:56:39.610 benji: although it strongly encourages me 531 00:56:39.860 --> 00:56:40.690 Aaron McHale: right. 532 00:56:42.330 --> 00:56:43.550 benji: which which I 533 00:56:43.690 --> 00:56:44.850 benji: I guess, is. 534 00:56:49.450 --> 00:56:55.530 benji: I guess that's okay. Oh, I really don't need this hover text. 535 00:56:58.040 --> 00:57:02.420 benji: And 536 00:57:03.010 --> 00:57:14.919 benji: and Ralph says in the chat. Hayden Pickering did an excellent talk at Axcon this year. That. and also a part about problem about alt text. 537 00:57:15.360 --> 00:57:22.699 benji: So let's just for the sake of the recording. Open the link. It is. 538 00:57:23.400 --> 00:57:37.830 benji: add axio.com, or ad a, ctio.com slash links slash 2 0 9 0 8, and the part in question starts at about 10 min, 15 s in 539 00:57:38.540 --> 00:57:42.980 benji: so anyone watching the recording this meeting can follow up on that if they want 540 00:57:43.650 --> 00:57:51.289 benji: go ahead. Erin. 541 00:57:51.750 --> 00:57:59.339 Aaron McHale: Yeah, I'm trying to remember what my other point was actually slip my mind. Cause. That was a pre question to what I was gonna say. 542 00:57:59.460 --> 00:58:01.800 Aaron McHale: but it's 543 00:58:02.920 --> 00:58:04.900 Aaron McHale: yeah slopped out my head 544 00:58:05.460 --> 00:58:12.320 benji: alright. So II don't know that we have time to also look at media unless someone really wants to. 545 00:58:14.460 --> 00:58:15.580 Simo Hellsten: I think if 546 00:58:17.630 --> 00:58:22.420 Simo Hellsten: there there was one media edit, maybe you could. if it's possible to 547 00:58:22.710 --> 00:58:28.670 Simo Hellsten: check, because or I can maybe share my screen and show what it looks like with media. 548 00:58:28.800 --> 00:58:29.810 benji: Sure. 549 00:58:42.560 --> 00:58:46.440 Simo Hellsten: so are you seeing some Spanish cookies. 550 00:58:47.600 --> 00:58:49.440 Simo Hellsten: So here. 551 00:58:50.210 --> 00:58:51.800 Simo Hellsten: when it's a 552 00:58:51.980 --> 00:58:59.160 Simo Hellsten: with media, it has the default, alternative text from that media displayed. 553 00:59:00.240 --> 00:59:03.550 Simo Hellsten: And this might be different version of the 554 00:59:04.230 --> 00:59:07.929 Simo Hellsten: but because it says, here, this is a decorative image. 555 00:59:08.750 --> 00:59:18.570 Simo Hellsten: and here there is a line above it, so it doesn't look so much like a title or like it's kind of a 556 00:59:19.330 --> 00:59:30.320 Simo Hellsten: it's not only about like it does. It doesn't look like a title for the dialogue, but here, when I 557 00:59:30.720 --> 00:59:40.869 Simo Hellsten: toggle the button, it only removes that overall default alternative text, so it removes the possibility to override, and it kind of gives impression that 558 00:59:41.410 --> 00:59:46.680 Simo Hellsten: to me that the devout alternative text will be used if this is toggled. 559 00:59:47.030 --> 00:59:51.619 Simo Hellsten: So I think one of the things here would be that it should remove also that 560 00:59:52.830 --> 00:59:57.010 Simo Hellsten: default alternative text from showing, and then 561 00:59:57.040 --> 01:00:02.240 Simo Hellsten: maybe replace it with some kind of description about what decorative image is 562 01:00:04.180 --> 01:00:06.080 Simo Hellsten: so that might be something 563 01:00:06.650 --> 01:00:07.760 benji: right here. 564 01:00:08.030 --> 01:00:17.679 benji: I don't know when this would ever come up, but if if someone has added default text to the media item. 565 01:00:17.700 --> 01:00:22.339 benji: and you want to use it as purely decorative in the current context. 566 01:00:23.230 --> 01:00:34.560 benji: then. yeah, I guess clearly you can enter something there to override it. But III guess the toggle button lets you do that. 567 01:00:35.270 --> 01:00:37.850 Simo Hellsten: Yeah. Then then, when when you save 568 01:00:38.460 --> 01:00:47.769 benji: even though there's default text. It won't be used, I assume that's that's what it means. But it's kind of, I think. 569 01:00:49.920 --> 01:00:57.369 Simo Hellsten: here, if it's all comes back to that. If one should know what it means to be a decorative image. 570 01:00:58.900 --> 01:01:02.079 benji: Good point. You still need to know what that means. But 571 01:01:02.160 --> 01:01:14.399 benji: but I think you're right. That. This is clearer than what we had for the image field. That this is a decorative image is just for the toggle. It's not for the whole thing. 572 01:01:14.540 --> 01:01:16.609 benji: Thomas, what do you want to say? 573 01:01:17.150 --> 01:01:20.550 Thomas Howell: I so it's kind of 574 01:01:21.430 --> 01:01:24.730 the second question wanted to ask earlier. 575 01:01:24.760 --> 01:01:51.439 Thomas Howell: I was curious about what it looked like. So a lot of the alt text I'm seeing places use are not really short. They're very long. And so could we test turning off decorative image here and posting the like, put the entire sentence, and I just wanted to see what it looked like when you exceed the length of the box 576 01:01:56.860 --> 01:01:58.189 Simo Hellsten: doesn't look nice. 577 01:01:58.330 --> 01:02:00.200 Thomas Howell: Yeah, 578 01:02:00.290 --> 01:02:10.070 Thomas Howell: so yeah, II was really worried on the the shorter one not for the media. But for just the the image 579 01:02:10.340 --> 01:02:21.720 Thomas Howell: And I just wanted to note. I wanted to ask, what if we could see what it looked like. I'm I'm just wondering if they could like if they were to move forward with this 580 01:02:21.840 --> 01:02:36.390 Thomas Howell: rather than like. I don't know if getting rid of the toggle like II don't like the toggle button, but I think when it's in decorative image mode, it could change the wording in such a way that it said. 581 01:02:36.400 --> 01:02:59.259 Thomas Howell: decorative image slash no alt text like you could, without giving long explanations, make it very visible that when you changed it to this is a decorative image, like when you've changed the toggle or changed the state. Decorative image, said decorative image. No alt shown or no alt text something like that. Because right now this doesn't 582 01:02:59.260 --> 01:03:13.040 Thomas Howell: indicate what the change of state was leaving the default. Alternative text in there. It isn't clear to me that that's not going to be used. So when you toggled it over, I would still think to me, Oh. 583 01:03:13.390 --> 01:03:18.609 Thomas Howell: it's going to use default alternative text. I've turned off the override. 584 01:03:18.710 --> 01:03:30.629 Thomas Howell: But it's going to still use the default, like, I, okay. So instead of just making that text box go away, replace it with the message telling you what the current state is. I think that's a good idea. 585 01:03:31.990 --> 01:03:45.069 Aaron McHale: We just had a minute left. Aaron has had his hand up for a couple of which, like kind of well, first agree with Thomas that what is kind of gonna say is that also said earlier, that, like the 586 01:03:45.580 --> 01:03:49.569 Aaron McHale: this text, like decorative image. Is not. 587 01:03:49.770 --> 01:04:11.170 Aaron McHale: is something that's been invented by this issue. Right? It's not a standard. There's no like as far as where there's no HTML standard for saying this to Dexter Image, which means that screen readers don't know that it's a decorative image. All they know is, there's an image here without all text and I wanna be clear that I'm 100, not in favor of adding images without all text. Okay. 588 01:04:11.450 --> 01:04:12.800 benji: that said. 589 01:04:13.010 --> 01:04:15.049 Aaron McHale: if we do this. 590 01:04:15.210 --> 01:04:28.800 Aaron McHale: If the only effect of chain turning on this toggle is that it doesn't adult text, and that's what the total should say it. We shouldn't invent more drupalisms, which is what we're trying to get rid of is drupalisms. So 591 01:04:29.060 --> 01:04:31.879 Aaron McHale: yeah, that's that's my kind of final. 592 01:04:32.490 --> 01:04:34.410 Aaron McHale: Take on this, I think. 593 01:04:37.560 --> 01:04:44.029 benji: Okay, see, not has joined us. I'm I'm afraid meeting is almost over. 594 01:04:44.950 --> 01:04:47.470 benji: There may be some time zone confusion. 595 01:04:48.290 --> 01:04:55.240 benji: I've been here for a while I was just listening in. Okay, sorry I didn't notice earlier. 596 01:04:57.900 --> 01:05:02.020 benji: but 597 01:05:02.310 --> 01:05:05.670 benji: yeah, we we are a minute past the hour. 598 01:05:05.790 --> 01:05:12.260 benji: feel free to comment on on the issue, feel free to continue the discussion in slack 599 01:05:12.600 --> 01:05:15.010 benji: I'm not sure we have any 600 01:05:15.330 --> 01:05:22.270 benji: consensus recommendations, but maybe we're close and and with a little more discussion. We we can do that. 601 01:05:22.990 --> 01:05:25.470 benji: Thanks all for coming. 602 01:05:25.630 --> 01:05:28.940 benji: Next week I'll be 603 01:05:29.130 --> 01:05:41.440 benji: at the nerd Summit and running the meeting from there, so it's possible that I'll have some other attendees of that conference in the room with me. 604 01:05:41.950 --> 01:05:45.179 benji: That the meeting should go on pretty much as normal. 605 01:05:46.190 --> 01:05:53.789 Aaron McHale: Thanks, Benji. I'm gonna I will pull some something on this issue. But could someone remind me what the issue number is for it? 606 01:05:55.120 --> 01:06:02.419 benji: yeah. Well, I'll I'll put it into the slack channel. Okay. 607 01:06:03.740 --> 01:06:05.890 Ralf Koller: also enter. And you in the chat as well. 608 01:06:10.310 --> 01:06:11.200 Aaron McHale: Thank you. 609 01:06:13.280 --> 01:06:14.210 Ofer Shaal: Thank you. 610 01:06:16.820 --> 01:06:18.050 benji: Thanks everyone. 611 01:06:19.190 --> 01:06:21.270 nod_: Yes, we thanks. Bye, bye. 612 01:06:21.730 --> 01:06:22.610 Simo Hellsten: this weekend.