WEBVTT 131 00:11:50.610 --> 00:11:56.940 benji: Welcome. This is the drupal usability meeting for August 19, th 2,024. I'm Benji Fisher, moderating 132 00:11:57.060 --> 00:12:00.969 benji: and also present, are Ralph Kohler, who's sharing his screen. 133 00:12:01.340 --> 00:12:07.049 benji: Erin Mchale, Andres Vonkos, Randy Ost, and Simo Helston. Go ahead. 134 00:12:08.140 --> 00:12:08.830 benji: Ralph. 135 00:12:09.550 --> 00:12:19.330 Ralf Koller: Thanks. We are looking at issue number 2, 8, 0, 4, 3, 8, 7. Inform users that the maintenance mode message is not displayed on cached 136 00:12:19.770 --> 00:12:20.950 Ralf Koller: Hs. 137 00:12:23.220 --> 00:12:25.320 Ralf Koller: if we take a quick look 138 00:12:25.380 --> 00:12:26.430 Ralf Koller: at 139 00:12:26.580 --> 00:12:28.849 Ralf Koller: the current state before the 140 00:12:31.180 --> 00:12:33.230 Ralf Koller: there we go. 141 00:12:34.130 --> 00:12:37.150 Ralf Koller: Currently the maintenance mode page looks 142 00:12:37.250 --> 00:12:38.469 Ralf Koller: the following way. 143 00:12:39.210 --> 00:12:42.080 Ralf Koller: and I'll quickly 144 00:12:42.180 --> 00:12:43.470 Ralf Koller: switch 145 00:12:49.720 --> 00:12:51.100 Ralf Koller: the feature branch 146 00:12:56.460 --> 00:12:57.520 Ralf Koller: and 147 00:13:00.290 --> 00:13:01.080 Ralf Koller: well. 148 00:13:01.310 --> 00:13:03.769 benji: But while you're trying to fix that, let's just 149 00:13:04.280 --> 00:13:07.419 benji: make sure everyone understands. 150 00:13:07.910 --> 00:13:10.670 benji: If someone remember what maintenance mode is. 151 00:13:13.910 --> 00:13:21.280 benji: So when you're doing some sort of maintenance on site typically writing database updates, you can put it in maintenance mode. 152 00:13:21.600 --> 00:13:22.730 benji: And then 153 00:13:23.440 --> 00:13:28.179 benji: any non admin user who visits the site will get a message 154 00:13:28.570 --> 00:13:30.620 benji: whatever is in that text field. 155 00:13:31.100 --> 00:13:36.329 benji: Your site is under currently under maintenance. We should be back shortly. Thank you for your patience as the default. 156 00:13:40.630 --> 00:13:41.640 benji: exactly. 157 00:13:41.640 --> 00:13:49.847 Ralf Koller: And the problem with this, and it's also surfaced. And, as I've previously mentioned in a discussion, 158 00:13:51.370 --> 00:13:54.160 Ralf Koller: raised on the Ux Channel 159 00:13:55.310 --> 00:13:56.580 Ralf Koller: apologies. 160 00:13:57.171 --> 00:14:03.279 Ralf Koller: One second, I have to scroll to find it. Yeah, by M. Xr. 5, 7, 6, 161 00:14:05.690 --> 00:14:08.020 Ralf Koller: Cause. The problem is the following, if 162 00:14:09.180 --> 00:14:10.850 Ralf Koller: you have the maintenance mode. 163 00:14:10.930 --> 00:14:14.970 Ralf Koller: And if you open, for example, a 164 00:14:17.230 --> 00:14:18.450 Ralf Koller: private window 165 00:14:19.550 --> 00:14:20.510 Ralf Koller: core. 166 00:14:22.100 --> 00:14:23.200 Ralf Koller: And 167 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:26.380 Ralf Koller: now we switch on the maintenance mode 168 00:14:29.580 --> 00:14:30.550 Ralf Koller: reload. 169 00:14:31.190 --> 00:14:32.694 Ralf Koller: as you can see. 170 00:14:33.260 --> 00:14:41.369 Ralf Koller: I still get basically the front page, not the pages. Currently, in a maintenance mode, I have to go basically to 171 00:14:43.339 --> 00:14:44.409 Ralf Koller: development 172 00:14:44.480 --> 00:14:45.750 Ralf Koller: performance 173 00:14:45.860 --> 00:14:46.920 Ralf Koller: shit cash 174 00:14:48.330 --> 00:14:51.390 Ralf Koller: reload. And now, site under maintenance. 175 00:14:55.660 --> 00:15:04.640 benji: And that's normally a good thing like, wouldn't you rather serve someone a cached page most of the time in instead of message saying that the site is unavailable. 176 00:15:09.010 --> 00:15:15.789 benji: So this issue isn't about changing any of that. We're still going to have that that behavior which, which, as I said, is usually a good thing. 177 00:15:17.220 --> 00:15:20.360 benji: just modify the messaging on this page. 178 00:15:22.880 --> 00:15:24.180 Ralf Koller: As you can see. 179 00:15:24.630 --> 00:15:32.159 Ralf Koller: Unfortunately. I ran into an error because I forgot to clear the cache before after changing 180 00:15:32.730 --> 00:15:33.916 Ralf Koller: the French. 181 00:15:34.780 --> 00:15:36.479 Ralf Koller: that way, it would be more 182 00:15:36.830 --> 00:15:39.110 Ralf Koller: significant cause it's 183 00:15:39.710 --> 00:15:42.380 Ralf Koller: easily gets unnoticed. That small 184 00:15:43.230 --> 00:15:46.179 Ralf Koller: in, in tiny letters. 185 00:15:46.420 --> 00:15:57.199 Ralf Koller: description underneath the message to display when in maintenance mode, the to display the maintenance, mode, message to all visitors. Flush the page cache on the performance settings page. 186 00:15:57.640 --> 00:16:00.260 Ralf Koller: and it could go easily unnoticed. 187 00:16:05.940 --> 00:16:11.169 benji: Okay? And that that message there, there's currently nothing there without the 188 00:16:11.210 --> 00:16:13.800 benji: the merge request for the issue. Right? Yeah. 189 00:16:13.800 --> 00:16:14.550 Ralf Koller: Accepted. 190 00:16:22.990 --> 00:16:25.940 benji: So any questions first, st about 191 00:16:27.460 --> 00:16:29.400 benji: what we're doing, why, we're doing it. 192 00:16:37.290 --> 00:16:38.670 Randy Oest (he/him): It all makes sense to me. 193 00:16:41.240 --> 00:16:43.230 benji: So what do you think about the 194 00:16:43.240 --> 00:16:44.870 benji: particular messaging 195 00:16:54.710 --> 00:16:55.770 benji: anyone. 196 00:16:57.600 --> 00:17:03.509 Simo Hellsten: It's not about the message, but I'm thinking, since we have some time is we are starting to have those 197 00:17:03.530 --> 00:17:12.619 Simo Hellsten: 2 different buttons, so it would have a save and flash cash, so that would be kind of strange, but it would be kind of 198 00:17:13.474 --> 00:17:16.949 Simo Hellsten: something that could be done at one time 199 00:17:17.020 --> 00:17:21.630 Simo Hellsten: just clicking the balls, so it might be easier, but it might be an overkill. 200 00:17:26.250 --> 00:17:30.795 benji: Right? So so currently, that link, I, I assume, is 201 00:17:32.620 --> 00:17:38.079 benji: just going to the performance page where you can then clear cash. And and you're suggesting 202 00:17:38.950 --> 00:17:41.460 benji: that they you might want to add a 203 00:17:41.650 --> 00:17:44.290 benji: button here to clear the cache directly. 204 00:17:53.480 --> 00:17:55.529 Simo Hellsten: Yeah. It would be. Then one step less. 205 00:18:02.290 --> 00:18:03.590 Aaron McHale: Yeah, I was just gonna say, I 206 00:18:03.670 --> 00:18:09.960 Aaron McHale: I think I like the idea of like a save save configuration and clear cache. But 207 00:18:13.740 --> 00:18:21.939 Aaron McHale: I don't know. There is another part of me that so feels like the fact that cash doesn't get cleared does trying to feel like a bug in a way like 208 00:18:22.710 --> 00:18:25.679 Aaron McHale: like I get what you were saying, Benji, but also like 209 00:18:26.920 --> 00:18:30.109 Aaron McHale: that's the equivalent of saying like, if I save a node. 210 00:18:30.510 --> 00:18:32.840 Aaron McHale: I expect the content to update. 211 00:18:33.500 --> 00:18:39.119 Aaron McHale: You know, if if the I said node and the content didn't update because the cache it was still caching. 212 00:18:39.760 --> 00:18:41.360 Aaron McHale: I would say, that's a bug 213 00:18:43.280 --> 00:18:46.160 Aaron McHale: if I put the site in maintenance mode and I save it. 214 00:18:46.390 --> 00:18:53.599 Aaron McHale: If I then go to the homepage and say a cache version of it, my immediate reaction is. Oh, there's a caching bug. 215 00:18:57.680 --> 00:18:59.220 Randy Oest (he/him): I agree with Aaron. 216 00:19:05.391 --> 00:19:07.399 benji: So I'm I'm thinking that 217 00:19:09.250 --> 00:19:16.459 benji: the usual use case is that I'm afraid of something breaking while I'm running database updates 218 00:19:16.770 --> 00:19:18.660 benji: or whatever I'm doing 219 00:19:19.355 --> 00:19:24.319 benji: I guess that that's the only use case I've ever had for putting the site in maintenance mode. 220 00:19:25.424 --> 00:19:28.739 benji: So I don't want us people to see 221 00:19:29.330 --> 00:19:31.490 benji: the sausage being made, so to speak. 222 00:19:31.820 --> 00:19:34.790 benji: I don't want them to see an an unfinished page. 223 00:19:35.190 --> 00:19:39.200 benji: but if I have an already finished page in the cache. Then 224 00:19:39.920 --> 00:19:41.180 benji: I want 225 00:19:41.190 --> 00:19:44.039 benji: them to see the cash paid. So I think 226 00:19:44.670 --> 00:19:45.570 benji: it's 227 00:19:45.680 --> 00:19:49.479 benji: I think it's an unusual use case where you'd want people 228 00:19:49.980 --> 00:19:54.539 benji: to clear or or where the site administrator would want to clear the cache. 229 00:19:55.050 --> 00:19:58.349 benji: So I don't think it's all that important to make that 230 00:19:58.560 --> 00:20:00.247 benji: easy, and I 231 00:20:01.970 --> 00:20:05.010 benji: sort of don't don't even want to encourage people to do it. 232 00:20:06.220 --> 00:20:07.520 benji: So I guess 233 00:20:08.070 --> 00:20:09.780 benji: you know, I mean, maybe just to 234 00:20:09.840 --> 00:20:13.319 benji: to frame the discussion. We should think of the usual questions. 235 00:20:13.530 --> 00:20:17.239 benji: When we're adding interface text, we want to 236 00:20:17.950 --> 00:20:22.620 benji: inform people of what the situation is and 237 00:20:23.360 --> 00:20:25.560 benji: give them options 238 00:20:25.650 --> 00:20:28.360 benji: to change behavior if they don't like the default. 239 00:20:29.556 --> 00:20:30.540 benji: But go ahead, Ralph. 240 00:20:32.346 --> 00:20:35.630 Ralf Koller: Just one addition. First.st 241 00:20:36.810 --> 00:20:40.260 Ralf Koller: The comment by Mx. R. 5, 7, 6 242 00:20:40.460 --> 00:20:44.320 Ralf Koller: from his perspective. And the agency, or the 243 00:20:44.420 --> 00:20:46.069 Ralf Koller: group he's working at 244 00:20:46.851 --> 00:20:49.610 Ralf Koller: he has opened an issue 245 00:20:49.690 --> 00:20:52.390 Ralf Koller: where this issue is. Basically the root cause 246 00:20:52.560 --> 00:20:54.169 Ralf Koller: is the following 247 00:20:54.180 --> 00:20:57.459 Ralf Koller: user, login fails silently when maintenance mode is active. 248 00:20:57.910 --> 00:20:59.010 Ralf Koller: So 249 00:20:59.110 --> 00:21:04.280 Ralf Koller: he was expecting, and all the people at his place were expecting to see 250 00:21:04.370 --> 00:21:08.649 Ralf Koller: that a site is set into maintenance mode, and they considered it sort of 251 00:21:08.740 --> 00:21:09.830 Ralf Koller: a problem. 252 00:21:10.210 --> 00:21:12.910 Ralf Koller: Just another perspective. In that case. 253 00:21:13.100 --> 00:21:15.590 Ralf Koller: and from my perspective, I, 254 00:21:16.310 --> 00:21:26.740 Ralf Koller: for one, I like Seymour's suggestion with, yeah, provide the option. Safe configuration and alongside safe configuration and clear cache, and maybe one other 255 00:21:27.540 --> 00:21:32.890 Ralf Koller: point from my perspective. In case, if safe configuration is chosen. 256 00:21:33.250 --> 00:21:39.139 Ralf Koller: maybe present the to display the maintenance mode message to all site. Visitors 257 00:21:39.350 --> 00:21:42.150 Ralf Koller: don't put it as in small. 258 00:21:42.410 --> 00:21:45.440 Ralf Koller: in a small font size underneath. 259 00:21:46.016 --> 00:21:48.929 Ralf Koller: The text field, but maybe as an 260 00:21:49.610 --> 00:21:51.590 Ralf Koller: status message or 261 00:21:51.760 --> 00:21:53.449 Ralf Koller: an information in a box 262 00:21:53.580 --> 00:21:56.100 Ralf Koller: on top. So so the user 263 00:21:57.484 --> 00:22:04.910 Ralf Koller: setting the maintenance mode clearly sees that the that the cache isn't cleared yet. 264 00:22:11.068 --> 00:22:12.460 benji: So you want to add 265 00:22:13.100 --> 00:22:14.469 benji: a message 266 00:22:15.760 --> 00:22:18.480 benji: that tells you whether or not the cache has been cleared. 267 00:22:21.100 --> 00:22:28.059 Ralf Koller: No, I I just thought, make that text underneath more prominent at the moment. It could easily be missed. 268 00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:29.150 benji: Okay? 269 00:22:33.050 --> 00:22:43.200 benji: So I I assume that they're adding text with the standard form. Api, that we have a label. We have a text area, and we have 270 00:22:43.250 --> 00:22:44.560 benji: a description. 271 00:23:00.100 --> 00:23:03.029 benji: Yeah, form of maintenance, mode of description. 272 00:23:22.270 --> 00:23:24.460 Aaron McHale: I've just been thinking about this, and I think 273 00:23:25.300 --> 00:23:26.979 Aaron McHale: bit more. And 274 00:23:27.860 --> 00:23:31.859 Aaron McHale: I suppose there's 2 ways you could think about it from the perspective of 275 00:23:33.550 --> 00:23:39.040 Aaron McHale: the less of real world like what you were describing. Benji is an optimal 276 00:23:39.610 --> 00:23:44.359 Aaron McHale: situation. Where, you know, is is one possible full situation, where you want 277 00:23:45.470 --> 00:23:49.280 Aaron McHale: the site you want visitors to see be able to use the site 278 00:23:50.420 --> 00:23:52.169 Aaron McHale: when it's in maintenance mode. 279 00:23:53.570 --> 00:23:54.840 Aaron McHale: But I think 280 00:23:55.600 --> 00:23:56.470 Aaron McHale: in. 281 00:23:57.370 --> 00:24:05.140 Aaron McHale: And I'm going to make a generalization, I think, for most sites where they have such a volume of traffic that that's important. They probably have 282 00:24:05.560 --> 00:24:22.460 Aaron McHale: another caching solution in front of drupal like cloudflare. And so maybe what they do is. And again, I'm just speculating here. Maybe what you do. In that case, you know, you know, you're gonna put the site domain support. So you say, Okay, hold everything in a cache, you know. Don't go fetch for anything new. 283 00:24:23.260 --> 00:24:27.080 Aaron McHale: so that the whole set is cash. Because what you then end up with is 284 00:24:27.450 --> 00:24:30.019 Aaron McHale: this is also not optimal, because 285 00:24:30.650 --> 00:24:33.450 Aaron McHale: the user there might be pages that aren't cached. 286 00:24:33.780 --> 00:24:35.120 Aaron McHale: you know. So like. 287 00:24:35.620 --> 00:24:39.820 Aaron McHale: there might be media that isn't cached. So you might end up in a situation where 288 00:24:39.940 --> 00:24:50.530 Aaron McHale: the user goes. They see the cache version, but not like they then go to click to another page, and they get the maintenance mode message because that page wasn't cached before the site was in maintenance mode. So I feel like 289 00:24:52.010 --> 00:25:01.280 Aaron McHale: for caching to be effective while the sites in maintenance mode you need a proper planned out Caching strategy that covers the whole site a site as a whole. 290 00:25:01.360 --> 00:25:06.020 Aaron McHale: That's why I'm sort of more lean towards that like drivel Core shouldn't provide like 291 00:25:06.360 --> 00:25:09.240 Aaron McHale: this. Feels like a kind of bug in the sense that like 292 00:25:09.520 --> 00:25:12.110 Aaron McHale: I don't think the intention 293 00:25:13.530 --> 00:25:21.140 Aaron McHale: was. I can't see the intention ever being that like, you know. Oh, let's let's not clear the cash in maintenance mode because 294 00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:29.229 Aaron McHale: people should see a cache version. You know, as Ralph mentioned, there is a bug that stems from that 295 00:25:30.740 --> 00:25:35.230 Aaron McHale: So I do feel like ultimately the solution is that 296 00:25:35.320 --> 00:25:38.846 Aaron McHale: should clear the cash. However, that said 297 00:25:39.550 --> 00:26:00.569 Aaron McHale: we all know what it's like to get changes in triple core. And so, at the very least. Maybe this is a good intermediate step that at least provides some better messaging to the user or better information. And maybe that fixing this thinking about this as a bug and fixing it as a follow up issue. That's I think that's where I'm more leaning. 298 00:26:08.170 --> 00:26:09.180 benji: So 299 00:26:09.670 --> 00:26:11.409 benji: here's a suggestion. 300 00:26:12.630 --> 00:26:15.199 benji: instead of putting the text there. 301 00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:18.700 benji: how about putting it in a confirmation message 302 00:26:19.100 --> 00:26:21.350 benji: after you save configuration? 303 00:26:22.630 --> 00:26:24.280 benji: Because that's the 304 00:26:25.210 --> 00:26:27.890 benji: time when you need to know the information 305 00:26:28.150 --> 00:26:30.900 benji: and when it would be effective to clear the cash. 306 00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:33.740 benji: 1st you put the site into maintenance mode. 307 00:26:34.380 --> 00:26:35.849 benji: then clear the cache. 308 00:26:42.140 --> 00:26:44.079 benji: I get a thumbs up from Sibo. 309 00:26:45.400 --> 00:26:48.029 Simo Hellsten: I was actually going to mention that possibility 310 00:26:49.210 --> 00:26:54.440 Simo Hellsten: also. Also. So yeah, I think that's good. Because then it's also something that 311 00:26:54.817 --> 00:27:03.840 Simo Hellsten: you 1st finish one step, then continue to another, another, one having a link there in the description, kind of leads you to the wrong place. 312 00:27:06.110 --> 00:27:09.099 benji: Okay, we got. I think 3 other thumbs up. 313 00:27:09.540 --> 00:27:12.300 benji: So I I think that's consensus. 314 00:27:12.600 --> 00:27:14.920 benji: Okay, we should move the message 315 00:27:15.570 --> 00:27:17.810 benji: to the 316 00:27:18.230 --> 00:27:22.560 benji: to to a confirmation message after saving the form rather than 317 00:27:24.350 --> 00:27:31.189 benji: Always putting it at the bottom of the form. And and then we don't have to worry about the fact that the font is too small when 318 00:27:31.660 --> 00:27:33.229 benji: and its current version. 319 00:27:37.020 --> 00:27:38.299 Aaron McHale: Yeah, I think because 320 00:27:39.910 --> 00:27:44.530 Aaron McHale: so I was gonna say that I think also because the the problem I think a lot of times with 321 00:27:45.290 --> 00:27:53.239 Aaron McHale: text on a form. It it's very often that you like you. You get so used to what you want to click on so 322 00:27:53.640 --> 00:28:06.100 Aaron McHale: like visually. You come here, and you see that the checkbox or non maintenance mode is like really prominent, the safe configuration really prominent. So you almost like visually just kind of ignore all the other information. So 323 00:28:06.470 --> 00:28:09.859 Aaron McHale: again, I think, like as a as a thinking about that. 324 00:28:10.150 --> 00:28:11.610 Aaron McHale: as an interim step. 325 00:28:11.640 --> 00:28:17.520 Aaron McHale: a confirmation form is probably the least likely way that users gonna miss that step. 326 00:28:18.570 --> 00:28:25.520 benji: Oh, wait a minute, you said confirmation form. I was just thinking of the Confirmation text when form is submitted. 327 00:28:26.870 --> 00:28:30.150 Aaron McHale: Oh, like, okay. So like a status message. 328 00:28:30.490 --> 00:28:31.170 benji: Yes. 329 00:28:33.230 --> 00:28:37.529 Aaron McHale: Maybe, Ralph, could you submit the form so we can see what happens? 330 00:28:38.880 --> 00:28:40.790 Aaron McHale: Oh, okay, that's a lot of. 331 00:28:47.250 --> 00:28:49.529 benji: And in fact, they've already implemented that 332 00:28:49.670 --> 00:28:51.889 benji: that that 3rd status message. 333 00:28:55.020 --> 00:28:56.329 benji: as far as I'm 6. 334 00:28:56.330 --> 00:28:57.120 Aaron McHale: Already. 335 00:28:57.930 --> 00:28:58.330 Ralf Koller: That one. 336 00:28:58.330 --> 00:29:02.189 Aaron McHale: Is is that new? Didn't look like that was in the patch, was it? 337 00:29:03.340 --> 00:29:08.839 Ralf Koller: Wait a second. I just moved to the other branch, and we can compare one second. Please. 338 00:29:14.780 --> 00:29:15.400 benji: 3. 339 00:29:15.670 --> 00:29:17.280 benji: Here. I also have a site. 340 00:29:21.940 --> 00:29:25.509 benji: and that's just triple core with the Umami 341 00:29:25.650 --> 00:29:26.530 benji: demo. 342 00:29:28.190 --> 00:29:30.159 Ralf Koller: Yes, I did, as you can see. 343 00:29:30.950 --> 00:29:31.740 Aaron McHale: Yeah. 344 00:29:32.850 --> 00:29:33.400 Ralf Koller: Oh. 345 00:29:42.270 --> 00:29:43.770 Ralf Koller: that I have missed. 346 00:29:51.410 --> 00:29:55.479 Aaron McHale: And we went from one message to 3 messages. Is that right? 347 00:29:56.320 --> 00:29:58.019 Ralf Koller: Second, I've switched back 348 00:30:00.690 --> 00:30:01.930 Ralf Koller: to 2 messages. 349 00:30:02.410 --> 00:30:03.640 Aaron McHale: Oh, 2. Okay. 350 00:30:12.140 --> 00:30:13.040 Ralf Koller: Click here. 351 00:30:20.490 --> 00:30:22.270 Aaron McHale: Yeah, maybe we should work on that 352 00:30:22.310 --> 00:30:24.350 Aaron McHale: that messaging then, because 353 00:30:26.460 --> 00:30:27.939 Aaron McHale: I like that idea. 354 00:30:28.490 --> 00:30:29.720 Aaron McHale: think that we 355 00:30:30.040 --> 00:30:32.199 Aaron McHale: probably could. If we 356 00:30:32.640 --> 00:30:35.470 Aaron McHale: worked on it. We could probably get to a shorter message. 357 00:30:36.740 --> 00:30:40.429 benji: Yeah, I definitely want to talk about the text of the message. 358 00:30:40.430 --> 00:30:41.170 Aaron McHale: Yeah. 359 00:30:41.754 --> 00:30:45.300 benji: So if it's already implemented as a status message. 360 00:30:47.720 --> 00:30:51.059 benji: do we? Or do we not also want to have the 361 00:30:51.580 --> 00:30:54.440 benji: description text underneath the form. 362 00:31:04.370 --> 00:31:05.170 Ralf Koller: It is 363 00:31:05.580 --> 00:31:10.160 Ralf Koller: since that status measures is one second I just test. 364 00:31:14.280 --> 00:31:15.179 Ralf Koller: I don't know. 365 00:31:17.720 --> 00:31:22.149 Ralf Koller: And when you get to the page again, then that status message isn't shown. So 366 00:31:23.770 --> 00:31:26.960 Ralf Koller: then it's necessary to keep it. But 367 00:31:27.490 --> 00:31:29.159 Ralf Koller: on page itself 368 00:31:29.350 --> 00:31:30.420 Ralf Koller: it's redundant. 369 00:31:40.590 --> 00:31:43.970 Aaron McHale: I don't feel like it's really necessary, because. 370 00:31:45.160 --> 00:31:45.910 Aaron McHale: like. 371 00:31:46.700 --> 00:31:49.789 Aaron McHale: I don't feel like you're gonna really notice it. And 372 00:31:51.890 --> 00:31:59.180 Aaron McHale: we probably want people doing it after they've saved the farm, not before they save the form. 373 00:32:04.780 --> 00:32:07.220 Simo Hellsten: One thing that I was 374 00:32:08.210 --> 00:32:09.090 Simo Hellsten: thing. 375 00:32:11.160 --> 00:32:13.249 Simo Hellsten: Thank you. Are we sure 376 00:32:13.350 --> 00:32:15.219 Simo Hellsten: it's the correct? Correct? 377 00:32:15.350 --> 00:32:17.700 Simo Hellsten: So I was thinking, would, it may be 378 00:32:18.190 --> 00:32:25.479 Simo Hellsten: so? What's the definite definition of reporting we have so that it will show that something that might require action. 379 00:32:30.090 --> 00:32:37.609 benji: I'm sorry your audio is a little bit uneven. Are are you suggesting that we make it a warning message rather than an info message? 380 00:32:39.027 --> 00:32:47.029 Simo Hellsten: Yeah, it's an option or something to distinguish like make it distinct from something that is finished to something that might need 381 00:32:47.260 --> 00:32:49.070 Simo Hellsten: extra attention. 382 00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:01.479 benji: It doesn't seem to me like a 383 00:33:03.070 --> 00:33:05.200 benji: like a warning condition. 384 00:33:08.420 --> 00:33:09.170 benji: you know. 385 00:33:09.630 --> 00:33:10.819 benji: for for many 386 00:33:11.240 --> 00:33:13.649 benji: cases it's it's the 387 00:33:15.590 --> 00:33:20.630 benji: it. In many cases we don't want to take action. So I I think that 388 00:33:20.680 --> 00:33:27.380 benji: changing it to warning message is putting too much emphasis on it. It's encouraging people to clear caches 389 00:33:27.600 --> 00:33:29.650 benji: which they might not want to do. 390 00:33:38.430 --> 00:33:43.460 benji: Can we get a quick vote on whether it should be status or or warning? 391 00:33:44.180 --> 00:33:46.750 benji: Who thinks it should be a status message. I do. 392 00:33:48.520 --> 00:33:49.220 Randy Oest (he/him): Ditto. 393 00:33:50.030 --> 00:33:51.280 benji: I see 2 thumbs up. 394 00:33:51.280 --> 00:33:51.890 Aaron McHale: Yeah. 395 00:33:52.540 --> 00:33:53.599 benji: 3 thumbs up 396 00:33:53.970 --> 00:33:55.109 benji: or thumbs up. 397 00:33:56.940 --> 00:34:00.619 benji: So, Simo, I think you're out loaded. Is that okay? 398 00:34:01.920 --> 00:34:06.510 Simo Hellsten: Yeah, I don't have a strong opinion. And I was just thinking if we would have something in between. 399 00:34:07.080 --> 00:34:12.000 Simo Hellsten: Yeah, but I think maybe warning is not correct for this one, not the kind of warning we have. 400 00:34:12.550 --> 00:34:13.210 benji: Okay. 401 00:34:18.560 --> 00:34:22.259 benji: So let me make the case for removing the 402 00:34:24.330 --> 00:34:26.910 benji: the line underneath the form. 403 00:34:27.493 --> 00:34:29.620 benji: So 1st of all, less is more 404 00:34:30.699 --> 00:34:35.320 benji: so. Secondly, it's visual clutter, which maybe is saying the same thing. 405 00:34:36.360 --> 00:34:38.469 benji: and 3, rd 406 00:34:39.030 --> 00:34:42.839 benji: it sort of encourages doing things in the wrong order. 407 00:34:43.170 --> 00:34:46.860 benji: If you click on that you move away from this page. You can then click 408 00:34:47.179 --> 00:34:49.150 benji: to clear caches. 409 00:34:49.290 --> 00:34:51.800 benji: and then you can come back to this page 410 00:34:52.340 --> 00:34:53.869 benji: and and then 411 00:34:54.330 --> 00:34:57.419 benji: hit save configuration. I'm getting a heart from Aaron. 412 00:34:57.470 --> 00:34:59.329 benji: and a thumbs up from Randy. 413 00:35:00.600 --> 00:35:02.860 Aaron McHale: Very excited about your suggestions. 414 00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:06.210 benji: I'm getting. 415 00:35:06.210 --> 00:35:08.419 Aaron McHale: Very much in support of what you're saying. 416 00:35:10.220 --> 00:35:11.150 benji: Okay. 417 00:35:11.707 --> 00:35:14.350 benji: anyone want to make the opposite case? 418 00:35:19.950 --> 00:35:24.969 benji: Okay, I guess I guess we're agreed. Then shall we move on to 419 00:35:25.452 --> 00:35:29.500 benji: the text of the message, or or is there something else we should talk about first.st 420 00:35:31.800 --> 00:35:34.099 Ralf Koller: just one small addition 421 00:35:35.480 --> 00:35:36.435 Ralf Koller: related. 422 00:35:37.850 --> 00:35:40.499 Ralf Koller: which was raised in that other issue. I've linked 423 00:35:41.183 --> 00:35:44.989 Ralf Koller: what is the case in if someone 424 00:35:46.200 --> 00:35:52.069 Ralf Koller: who has not the permission, use the site in maintenance mode tries to log in while the site is in maintenance mode 425 00:35:55.970 --> 00:35:58.470 Ralf Koller: with basically the caching done. 426 00:35:58.710 --> 00:36:02.999 Ralf Koller: Then, you see, basically, the site is in maintenance mode, and 427 00:36:03.590 --> 00:36:09.650 Ralf Koller: it makes sense that you're unable to log in. But without it fails silently. You 428 00:36:09.860 --> 00:36:12.940 Ralf Koller: are on this, for example, start page, try to log in. 429 00:36:12.970 --> 00:36:16.659 Ralf Koller: and then you get redirected to the start page with no 430 00:36:16.710 --> 00:36:19.950 Ralf Koller: error, no warning, but still as an anonymous user. 431 00:36:26.750 --> 00:36:27.380 benji: Wait. 432 00:36:29.040 --> 00:36:30.580 benji: So you're you're sitting. 433 00:36:30.770 --> 00:36:34.069 benji: So the the administrator puts the site into maintenance mode 434 00:36:34.330 --> 00:36:36.120 benji: without clearing caches. 435 00:36:36.500 --> 00:36:37.240 benji: Yep. 436 00:36:37.640 --> 00:36:38.870 benji: And then. 437 00:36:39.340 --> 00:36:42.439 benji: as an anonymous user. You go to the login page. 438 00:36:42.900 --> 00:36:43.690 benji: Yep. 439 00:36:44.110 --> 00:36:47.019 Ralf Koller: And you try to log in. And the account 440 00:36:47.390 --> 00:36:51.399 Ralf Koller: doesn't have the user site and maintenance mode permission. 441 00:36:52.540 --> 00:36:56.039 Ralf Koller: That is basically the the case that was made in the. 442 00:36:56.480 --> 00:36:57.750 Ralf Koller: If you have linked. 443 00:36:59.920 --> 00:37:01.289 Ralf Koller: which is related. 444 00:37:02.820 --> 00:37:03.459 Ralf Koller: which is fair. 445 00:37:03.460 --> 00:37:04.230 benji: Okay? 446 00:37:08.110 --> 00:37:10.810 benji: And then, by default, they're 447 00:37:12.110 --> 00:37:13.680 benji: logged in 448 00:37:14.079 --> 00:37:20.299 benji: but since they don't have permission to use it in maintenance mode, they are redirected to the home page. Is that is that what you're saying? 449 00:37:20.300 --> 00:37:24.899 Ralf Koller: The Login fails with valid credentials without any explanation about what happened 450 00:37:24.980 --> 00:37:28.150 Ralf Koller: is, I mean, the steps to reproduce in that issue. 451 00:37:28.600 --> 00:37:29.870 benji: Okay. Go ahead. Erin. 452 00:37:30.900 --> 00:37:32.149 Aaron McHale: I think that's 453 00:37:33.710 --> 00:37:40.890 Aaron McHale: I would say that that's not something we need to try and address for this issue, because 454 00:37:41.150 --> 00:37:50.949 Aaron McHale: that would, if you remember about this all caching strategy I was talking about. That would happen in that case. And so what I think that there's an assumption 455 00:37:51.470 --> 00:37:55.939 Aaron McHale: that if the site's in maintenance mode. You log in that by redirecting you to the homepage 456 00:37:56.480 --> 00:38:02.920 Aaron McHale: that you're going to get the sensible message. I think it would be better for that issue to actually focus on 457 00:38:04.031 --> 00:38:10.719 Aaron McHale: us, you know, displaying an actual warning or error, or something on the form when you submit it, because 458 00:38:11.170 --> 00:38:13.609 Aaron McHale: I don't think it should be an assumption. 459 00:38:13.660 --> 00:38:21.439 Aaron McHale: the form, the login form, shouldn't assume that by redirecting you back to the homepage you're going to get that message because there might be other caching layers. 460 00:38:22.670 --> 00:38:26.610 benji: And there, there's already another issue for that. I think that's 461 00:38:26.740 --> 00:38:28.660 benji: stay focused on the current issue. 462 00:38:29.170 --> 00:38:30.210 benji: Yep, yep. 463 00:38:33.570 --> 00:38:34.920 benji: And unless 464 00:38:35.090 --> 00:38:39.780 benji: someone else has something they'd like to talk about first.st I think we should talk about the text. 465 00:38:42.350 --> 00:38:45.309 benji: So I would like to rework the text. 466 00:38:47.077 --> 00:38:48.359 benji: So that it's 467 00:38:51.020 --> 00:38:55.429 benji: it. So it doesn't encourage people to clear the caches like. 468 00:38:55.980 --> 00:38:57.979 benji: explain the situation. 469 00:38:58.990 --> 00:39:02.350 benji: and then say, if you want to clear the cash, you can. 470 00:39:02.770 --> 00:39:05.730 benji: And Randy is making a suggestion. 471 00:39:06.360 --> 00:39:09.740 Randy Oest (he/him): Oh, yeah, I just. I just made it really short and sweet. 472 00:39:09.760 --> 00:39:13.769 Randy Oest (he/him): you know. Clear cash to show everyone the maintenance mode message. 473 00:39:14.391 --> 00:39:21.149 Randy Oest (he/him): That doesn't inform people as to why they would or wouldn't want to. I was just focusing on making it a little bit short. 474 00:39:21.340 --> 00:39:22.500 Randy Oest (he/him): little bit shorter. 475 00:39:26.850 --> 00:39:35.489 benji: I was thinking of. 2 sentences, one to describe the situation and the other 476 00:39:35.700 --> 00:39:36.859 benji: to give a link. 477 00:39:37.400 --> 00:39:39.230 benji: So something like 478 00:39:41.550 --> 00:39:43.340 benji: anonymous users. 479 00:39:43.700 --> 00:39:45.920 benji: We'll see cached pages. 480 00:39:55.320 --> 00:39:59.439 benji: if you want them to see maintenance mode message, then. 481 00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:08.150 benji: and then something like the current message. 482 00:40:10.090 --> 00:40:11.110 benji: Then good 483 00:40:16.100 --> 00:40:17.210 benji: right. 484 00:40:17.440 --> 00:40:18.440 Ralf Koller: Something like that. 485 00:40:21.250 --> 00:40:26.369 Randy Oest (he/him): One very small change, I think, to show them the maintenance mode message 486 00:40:26.670 --> 00:40:28.710 Randy Oest (he/him): instead of if you want them. 487 00:40:31.280 --> 00:40:34.140 benji: So any advantage other than the fact that it's shorter. 488 00:40:36.600 --> 00:40:38.550 Randy Oest (he/him): I think it's a little bit more direct. 489 00:40:41.320 --> 00:40:48.330 Randy Oest (he/him): It's kind of telling users, you know, to show them maintenance, mode, message, flush the page cache on performance settings. 490 00:40:48.894 --> 00:40:56.120 Randy Oest (he/him): As opposed to offering the user like a choice, because they don't actually have to make a choice right here. 491 00:40:56.150 --> 00:40:58.550 Randy Oest (he/him): because for me reading. F, 492 00:40:58.730 --> 00:41:03.579 Randy Oest (he/him): it's like, okay. So now I need to make a choice because of the status message. 493 00:41:06.556 --> 00:41:14.229 benji: I I see that as an advantage. I I want them to know that it's not something they have to do. This isn't recommended standard 494 00:41:14.390 --> 00:41:15.500 benji: process. 495 00:41:15.730 --> 00:41:20.739 benji: It's it is a conditional. You don't always want to show the status message 496 00:41:21.080 --> 00:41:24.949 benji: to anonymous users. If you do, then this is the way to do it. 497 00:41:26.270 --> 00:41:27.310 Randy Oest (he/him): That's fair. 498 00:41:28.270 --> 00:41:31.096 Simo Hellsten: There's also option to say something like 499 00:41:32.060 --> 00:41:33.020 Simo Hellsten: that. 500 00:41:35.220 --> 00:41:40.429 Simo Hellsten: maintenance mode message won't be displayed on cash page. 501 00:41:42.010 --> 00:41:47.919 Simo Hellsten: and then you can. Something about. You can flush the cash to show it on every page. 502 00:41:48.470 --> 00:41:52.379 Simo Hellsten: But just explain that it won't be showed on cached page. 503 00:41:56.170 --> 00:41:57.570 benji: Right, and Aaron. 504 00:41:58.660 --> 00:41:59.470 Aaron McHale: So 505 00:41:59.660 --> 00:42:01.450 Aaron McHale: one thing we could do 506 00:42:02.420 --> 00:42:03.580 Aaron McHale: is 507 00:42:03.660 --> 00:42:09.439 Aaron McHale: because when you submit the form, you end up getting 3 messages, you get one that says the sites in maintenance mode. 508 00:42:09.470 --> 00:42:12.330 Aaron McHale: one that says the configuration's been submitted, and then 509 00:42:12.770 --> 00:42:23.480 Aaron McHale: this one that now tells you to go to the page. I think we could like take the one. So the one that says the configuration option be saved has is the formatting that 510 00:42:23.940 --> 00:42:29.040 Aaron McHale: so like we don't actually need to keep that message. We could combine that into 511 00:42:29.270 --> 00:42:32.190 Aaron McHale: the one we're working on. And then we just have like 512 00:42:32.550 --> 00:42:40.450 Aaron McHale: to. I don't think we can avoid. I think I think the one site is like operating maintenance this morning. I think that one will show up. I don't think it's worth trying to 513 00:42:40.690 --> 00:42:43.940 Aaron McHale: hack our way into removing that one, but 514 00:42:44.210 --> 00:42:46.290 Aaron McHale: we at least don't need 3 of them. 515 00:42:49.270 --> 00:42:49.900 Aaron McHale: So. 516 00:42:49.900 --> 00:42:50.470 benji: Yeah. 517 00:42:50.930 --> 00:42:51.280 Aaron McHale: Really. 518 00:42:51.280 --> 00:42:53.000 benji: We don't need 3 messages. 519 00:42:53.190 --> 00:42:58.379 benji: Also, I tested on on my test site, which is based on 520 00:42:58.620 --> 00:43:00.599 benji: 1111 point X, 521 00:43:00.820 --> 00:43:04.360 benji: and that 1st status message page does not appear 522 00:43:04.570 --> 00:43:05.790 benji: on this page. 523 00:43:05.800 --> 00:43:12.000 benji: which, when you think about it, makes a lot of sense. If you click the go online link, you're just redirected to this page. Right? 524 00:43:16.070 --> 00:43:20.113 benji: so so that must be a recent change. I'm I'm guessing that. 525 00:43:20.540 --> 00:43:22.440 benji: that that this issue is 526 00:43:24.410 --> 00:43:27.470 benji: based on drupal 10.2 or something. 527 00:43:30.350 --> 00:43:34.119 benji: so so this must be a recent change. So so we don't have. 528 00:43:34.120 --> 00:43:34.470 Aaron McHale: Right. 529 00:43:34.470 --> 00:43:35.989 benji: About the 1st of the 3. 530 00:43:36.690 --> 00:43:40.070 Aaron McHale: So could we then say something like, start. The message with 531 00:43:40.320 --> 00:43:43.040 Aaron McHale: the site is now in maintenance mode. 532 00:43:43.660 --> 00:43:45.250 Aaron McHale: and then go on to 533 00:43:45.310 --> 00:43:46.830 Aaron McHale: and, like, you know. 534 00:43:47.790 --> 00:43:57.239 Aaron McHale: is it? Is it also strictly true that it's only anonymous users you could have a caching setup where also people are logged in might still get cached pages 535 00:43:59.120 --> 00:44:02.219 Aaron McHale: because caching also doesn't applies to linkedin users. 536 00:44:06.580 --> 00:44:10.749 benji: So let's see, this is in the page. Cache module. Does that 537 00:44:12.620 --> 00:44:17.829 benji: cache pages? I don't. I don't think it caches pages for for logged in users. 538 00:44:19.070 --> 00:44:19.580 Ralf Koller: One second. 539 00:44:19.580 --> 00:44:25.800 Aaron McHale: But like you, dripple candle like there is like, I don't think we can assume that 540 00:44:25.820 --> 00:44:28.270 Aaron McHale: only anonymous users will see cached 541 00:44:28.570 --> 00:44:29.630 Aaron McHale: data. 542 00:44:32.890 --> 00:44:34.029 Simo Hellsten: And also they don't. 543 00:44:34.030 --> 00:44:34.570 Aaron McHale: Yeah. 544 00:44:35.470 --> 00:44:40.599 Simo Hellsten: And also they don't always see that because there might be some element that prevents caching. 545 00:44:41.370 --> 00:44:41.980 Aaron McHale: Hmm. 546 00:44:48.810 --> 00:44:51.250 benji: But yeah, they're. I guess they're they're. 547 00:44:51.750 --> 00:44:58.359 benji: There's also the dynamic page cache module. And as Aaron brought up earlier, there are also Cdns that might be involved. 548 00:44:58.660 --> 00:45:03.330 benji: So maybe, instead of trying to say which, users will see, what 549 00:45:03.590 --> 00:45:05.630 benji: we should say, that 550 00:45:07.090 --> 00:45:09.000 benji: cached pages will not 551 00:45:09.100 --> 00:45:10.190 benji: show 552 00:45:15.870 --> 00:45:18.629 benji: will not show the what message the. 553 00:45:22.310 --> 00:45:24.370 Aaron McHale: Maybe we could start. Maybe something like 554 00:45:29.890 --> 00:45:32.589 Aaron McHale: the maintenance mode message will not 555 00:45:33.410 --> 00:45:38.690 Aaron McHale: will only show no will, not something about it not showing until 556 00:45:41.120 --> 00:45:43.120 Aaron McHale: cash has been cleared. 557 00:45:44.420 --> 00:45:47.750 Aaron McHale: Basically, I think the 3 things we're trying to get across is 558 00:45:47.940 --> 00:45:49.820 Aaron McHale: amazing. Sport is now on. 559 00:45:51.680 --> 00:45:55.649 Aaron McHale: Caching is still happening. So previous pages are still cached. 560 00:45:55.710 --> 00:45:59.450 Aaron McHale: and if if you don't want that, you have to clear the cache 561 00:45:59.720 --> 00:46:02.630 Aaron McHale: just just for everybody. Same instant message. 562 00:46:03.770 --> 00:46:06.479 Aaron McHale: I don't know the exact wording that we want, though. 563 00:46:16.400 --> 00:46:20.800 benji: By the way, is it technically possible for a form alter to 564 00:46:21.000 --> 00:46:22.040 benji: replace 565 00:46:22.110 --> 00:46:23.590 benji: status message. 566 00:46:27.989 --> 00:46:32.210 Aaron McHale: No, I think cause to add a status. Message. 567 00:46:33.620 --> 00:46:37.250 Aaron McHale: Status messages added on form. Submit. 568 00:46:37.850 --> 00:46:45.869 Aaron McHale: and it it's added into the the messaging service, so you'd have to make a call directly to the messaging service to 569 00:46:45.940 --> 00:46:48.790 Aaron McHale: flush the messages, I believe. 570 00:46:49.800 --> 00:46:56.489 Aaron McHale: because you can flush them, and it removes them, or you can flush and print them, which is what happens automatically on pages. 571 00:46:59.330 --> 00:47:06.940 benji: Yeah, I I think that that's a a little drastic, because we're a little heavy handed because you you don't know that. 572 00:47:07.520 --> 00:47:11.489 benji: Oh, you only want to delete the standard message, and and there might be others. 573 00:47:12.027 --> 00:47:19.382 Aaron McHale: We also can't guarantee that like our flush would happen when when it would happen because it might be that 574 00:47:20.410 --> 00:47:30.780 Aaron McHale: when you submit the form when that form is submitted. Technically, the maintenance phone message hasn't been added to the the stack yet. It only happens like after 575 00:47:31.690 --> 00:47:33.439 Aaron McHale: this is getting complicated, Buddy. 576 00:47:33.460 --> 00:47:38.479 Aaron McHale: It happens in the next request after it's been saved so like it wouldn't even be. 577 00:47:38.880 --> 00:47:44.369 Aaron McHale: There would have to be some like something somewhere else that's tech and not logic. Anyway. Yeah. 578 00:47:48.160 --> 00:47:53.181 Aaron McHale: I'm getting into territory that's outside the scope of the Usability meeting. 579 00:47:59.920 --> 00:48:03.540 benji: Okay. So, Ralph, I I kind of liked the text that you 580 00:48:04.120 --> 00:48:06.920 benji: had a minute ago. Can you delete it? Or just yeah. 581 00:48:07.630 --> 00:48:08.370 benji: it's 582 00:48:08.570 --> 00:48:09.910 benji: complete the word message. 583 00:48:24.740 --> 00:48:26.190 benji: and I I guess 584 00:48:27.850 --> 00:48:30.050 benji: I guess I could go with the shorter version 585 00:48:30.350 --> 00:48:31.800 benji: to clear the cache 586 00:48:35.090 --> 00:48:36.060 benji: visited 587 00:48:36.780 --> 00:48:38.200 benji: Performance Page. 588 00:48:40.520 --> 00:48:43.390 benji: It's a little shorter than the the version I had before. 589 00:48:54.130 --> 00:48:58.210 Aaron McHale: Could we also add the word now to the site is 590 00:48:59.240 --> 00:49:02.769 Aaron McHale: in maintenance mode. So the site is now in maintenance mode. 591 00:49:07.860 --> 00:49:09.210 Aaron McHale: There's not too many words. 592 00:49:09.210 --> 00:49:12.250 benji: Discussion about how how you can't change the default 593 00:49:12.480 --> 00:49:13.900 benji: status message. 594 00:49:15.100 --> 00:49:16.130 benji: That 595 00:49:16.150 --> 00:49:18.629 benji: should be done, if it's done at all 596 00:49:18.800 --> 00:49:21.689 benji: in the system module. 597 00:49:22.080 --> 00:49:26.039 benji: So we that that would be part of the first.st Save this message 598 00:49:26.310 --> 00:49:28.210 benji: currently just has the default. 599 00:49:29.080 --> 00:49:30.229 Aaron McHale: Oh, I was 600 00:49:30.590 --> 00:49:34.020 Aaron McHale: I I thought we saw that. It doesn't show on this page, though. 601 00:49:37.190 --> 00:49:37.860 Aaron McHale: Like in your. 602 00:49:37.860 --> 00:49:41.900 benji: Show is is the site is in maintenance, mode. 603 00:49:42.330 --> 00:49:43.060 Aaron McHale: Right 604 00:49:43.350 --> 00:49:44.420 Aaron McHale: so. 605 00:49:45.090 --> 00:49:49.540 Aaron McHale: And that's in 11, right in in the latest. 606 00:49:51.240 --> 00:49:51.850 benji: Right. 607 00:49:52.750 --> 00:50:03.389 Aaron McHale: So what I was meaning is like this, this our message that we're adding to the form when you submit, the form like, could start with. What I was saying is, it could start with that sentence. The site is now in maintenance mode. 608 00:50:03.910 --> 00:50:05.979 Aaron McHale: and then next sentence. 609 00:50:06.080 --> 00:50:08.699 Aaron McHale: cash pages will not show blah blah. 610 00:50:12.570 --> 00:50:16.060 benji: And and what I'm suggesting is is that if we 611 00:50:16.470 --> 00:50:20.369 benji: want to say the site is now in maintenance mode. 612 00:50:20.950 --> 00:50:25.199 benji: we should say that in the status message from the system module 613 00:50:25.640 --> 00:50:29.890 benji: instead of the default. The configuration options have been saved 614 00:50:31.680 --> 00:50:37.320 benji: which might be a reasonable expansion to scope of this issue. It wouldn't be too hard to 615 00:50:38.500 --> 00:50:39.900 benji: change the default. 616 00:50:40.210 --> 00:50:42.719 Aaron McHale: When do you mean the one that shows 617 00:50:43.620 --> 00:50:48.199 Aaron McHale: on cause? I'm just talking about the one that shows when you submit the form. 618 00:50:49.070 --> 00:50:51.770 Aaron McHale: So not the one that shows everywhere else. 619 00:50:52.550 --> 00:50:54.480 benji: Yeah, I'm I'm talking about the same one. 620 00:50:55.250 --> 00:50:55.880 Aaron McHale: Okay. 621 00:50:57.410 --> 00:51:04.580 benji: So I I'm I'm suggesting that we we make a change in the page cache module to add the second status message. 622 00:51:04.970 --> 00:51:08.560 benji: and that we patch the system module to change 623 00:51:08.720 --> 00:51:10.510 benji: the 1st status message. 624 00:51:12.580 --> 00:51:18.239 Aaron McHale: I was thinking, this is all one message, like, when you submit the form, you get one message that says all of this. 625 00:51:20.620 --> 00:51:21.429 Ralf Koller: You mean 626 00:51:21.930 --> 00:51:22.920 Ralf Koller: that way. 627 00:51:23.400 --> 00:51:24.120 Aaron McHale: Yeah. 628 00:51:27.180 --> 00:51:28.610 benji: And insert the word. Now. 629 00:51:29.400 --> 00:51:30.060 benji: huh! 630 00:51:32.630 --> 00:51:34.680 benji: Site is now in maintenance, mode. 631 00:51:35.024 --> 00:51:37.270 Ralf Koller: So I just now. Okay, I'm the other way around. 632 00:51:46.180 --> 00:51:49.760 Aaron McHale: Think this is the one that would be added when you submit the form. 633 00:51:50.160 --> 00:51:51.190 Aaron McHale: because 634 00:51:51.200 --> 00:51:57.460 Aaron McHale: if if it's correct, that, then the the other message that shows up the one that's like 635 00:51:57.680 --> 00:52:04.729 Aaron McHale: that tells you across all the Admin pages that the site is in maintenance mode. If that, if it's correct, that that doesn't show on this page. 636 00:52:05.890 --> 00:52:10.310 Aaron McHale: Then, in theory, you would only see this message when you submit the form. 637 00:52:20.310 --> 00:52:23.510 benji: So. So yeah, that that's that's true. I I just think that 638 00:52:25.190 --> 00:52:26.930 benji: that in instead of 639 00:52:27.310 --> 00:52:29.799 benji: making this message, adding, adding this 640 00:52:29.940 --> 00:52:31.510 benji: 3rd sentence here. 641 00:52:31.740 --> 00:52:35.449 benji: I think that the system module should replace 642 00:52:36.300 --> 00:52:42.470 benji: the standard message, configuration opposite, and system, save to replace that with the site, is now in maintenance mode. 643 00:52:43.220 --> 00:52:46.479 benji: I think the system module can can change that 644 00:52:49.320 --> 00:52:51.630 benji: can't be done in a form altar. But 645 00:52:52.540 --> 00:52:53.110 benji: right. 646 00:52:53.860 --> 00:52:56.550 Aaron McHale: But I think it's the form that's adding this message, though. 647 00:52:59.510 --> 00:53:08.809 Aaron McHale: because confirmation messages, if if you, if the form doesn't add a confirmation message. Then nothing drupal doesn't display one automatically. 648 00:53:09.980 --> 00:53:14.659 Aaron McHale: like every form has to add its own like message after you hit. Submit. 649 00:53:15.030 --> 00:53:17.949 Aaron McHale: which is why we end up with such inconsistent messaging. 650 00:53:17.990 --> 00:53:20.240 Aaron McHale: There's a site problem of this. 651 00:53:22.650 --> 00:53:27.620 benji: Well the settings form by default, says the configuration, options have been saved, which is 652 00:53:28.760 --> 00:53:29.980 benji: kind of pathetic. 653 00:53:33.300 --> 00:53:36.049 Aaron McHale: Yeah. And I think that's the one that the farm is adding. 654 00:53:39.370 --> 00:53:45.080 Aaron McHale: That's why I was saying I was proposing replacing that message with with this like this one that we're working on. 655 00:53:53.320 --> 00:53:54.970 benji: So I mean, we currently have 656 00:53:55.170 --> 00:53:56.600 benji: 2 messages. 657 00:53:57.310 --> 00:54:00.809 benji: And you're suggesting replacing the 1st one with this. 658 00:54:01.080 --> 00:54:02.640 benji: These 3 sentences. 659 00:54:03.460 --> 00:54:09.489 Aaron McHale: Yeah, cause I think the 1st one is the one the farm is adding, the second one is the one that the issue added 660 00:54:09.620 --> 00:54:11.910 Aaron McHale: right. So if we 661 00:54:12.170 --> 00:54:13.390 Aaron McHale: basically 662 00:54:13.690 --> 00:54:18.360 Aaron McHale: what what I'm basically suggesting is combining both of those into a single message which 663 00:54:18.570 --> 00:54:24.609 Aaron McHale: should be possible because it's the form that's creating that mess. Those both of those messages I guess 664 00:54:25.710 --> 00:54:32.550 Aaron McHale: least I I get. I'll carry that. I haven't actually looked to the code. So that's just based on my understanding of how these things usually work. 665 00:54:46.920 --> 00:54:53.259 Andrei Zvonkov: Hey? Just actually my 2 cents on the actual wording. 666 00:54:55.120 --> 00:55:03.590 Andrei Zvonkov: For a second it seemed to me that anonymous users will see cash pages. I guess I'm wondering who's 667 00:55:03.620 --> 00:55:06.870 Andrei Zvonkov: the the messaging would be aimed at as in 668 00:55:07.540 --> 00:55:12.350 Andrei Zvonkov: if it's a Maintainer or administrator of the drupal 669 00:55:13.140 --> 00:55:18.880 Andrei Zvonkov: site that is pretty new to drupal. I think this would be confusing 670 00:55:19.010 --> 00:55:22.160 Andrei Zvonkov: to at least that's what I kind of 671 00:55:22.840 --> 00:55:24.429 Andrei Zvonkov: thought, as in 672 00:55:25.410 --> 00:55:28.290 Andrei Zvonkov: cached pages versus 673 00:55:28.460 --> 00:55:30.020 Andrei Zvonkov: like Browser cached 674 00:55:30.510 --> 00:55:32.300 Andrei Zvonkov: versus the drupal cash 675 00:55:36.820 --> 00:55:42.600 Andrei Zvonkov: I don't know. Just seem to a bit confusing to me, as if, say, if I'm 676 00:55:43.440 --> 00:55:48.240 Andrei Zvonkov: a drupal administrator who is doing this for the 1st time, or I don't know. 677 00:55:48.450 --> 00:55:50.649 Andrei Zvonkov: Just not as familiar with Dr. Bro 678 00:55:50.850 --> 00:55:51.800 Andrei Zvonkov: jargon. 679 00:55:55.500 --> 00:56:04.099 Andrei Zvonkov: Maybe I'm making things up. But just this, that anonymous users will see cached pages like, I'm thinking. 680 00:56:04.950 --> 00:56:07.638 Andrei Zvonkov: cache browser cache pages 681 00:56:08.890 --> 00:56:10.849 Andrei Zvonkov: versus drupal cash pages. 682 00:56:11.890 --> 00:56:16.550 benji: So it's it's certainly a persistent problem. We we can't explain everything everywhere. 683 00:56:17.780 --> 00:56:18.460 benji: If 684 00:56:18.950 --> 00:56:21.659 benji: if you have a concrete suggestion for improving it. 685 00:56:23.950 --> 00:56:26.200 benji: then that'll help. But 686 00:56:26.990 --> 00:56:29.460 benji: but without that I think we'll 687 00:56:29.740 --> 00:56:32.329 benji: probably want to leave well enough alone. 688 00:56:33.850 --> 00:56:34.510 benji: Yeah. 689 00:56:34.510 --> 00:56:35.960 Andrei Zvonkov: Great yep. 690 00:56:39.430 --> 00:56:41.249 Ralf Koller: Based on Andre's point. 691 00:56:41.840 --> 00:56:43.180 Ralf Koller: I've just 692 00:56:43.440 --> 00:56:45.399 Ralf Koller: looked at the 693 00:56:45.430 --> 00:56:48.080 Ralf Koller: performance page. The user is 694 00:56:48.260 --> 00:56:50.070 Ralf Koller: pointed to. And 695 00:56:50.330 --> 00:56:53.669 Ralf Koller: here you see just clear cache, clear all caches. 696 00:56:53.680 --> 00:56:58.089 Ralf Koller: Why not? Simply, instead of here we use the word flush. 697 00:56:58.200 --> 00:57:00.059 Ralf Koller: Why not adjust it to the 698 00:57:00.180 --> 00:57:07.149 Ralf Koller: wording used in a performance page, and simply say, if you want them to see if you 699 00:57:07.760 --> 00:57:13.920 Ralf Koller: oh, I oh, apologies I I switched into the wrong in an old version. Yeah, to clear 700 00:57:15.110 --> 00:57:16.090 Ralf Koller: into this mode. 701 00:57:16.880 --> 00:57:20.969 benji: Yeah, I agree. Clear use consistent language so clear rather than flush. 702 00:57:21.300 --> 00:57:24.829 Ralf Koller: Yeah. But yeah, in the latest version we already had clear. So 703 00:57:25.090 --> 00:57:28.359 Ralf Koller: yeah. And also the page cache was 704 00:57:28.790 --> 00:57:29.600 Ralf Koller: dropped 705 00:57:29.880 --> 00:57:31.859 Ralf Koller: and not mentioned. 706 00:57:36.630 --> 00:57:38.150 Ralf Koller: Yeah, I think so 707 00:57:38.610 --> 00:57:39.790 Ralf Koller: should be okay. 708 00:57:39.860 --> 00:57:40.940 Ralf Koller: My point of view. 709 00:57:41.360 --> 00:57:42.960 Aaron McHale: Should we should we say. 710 00:57:43.230 --> 00:57:45.499 Aaron McHale: rather than cached pages will show. 711 00:57:45.970 --> 00:57:47.609 Aaron McHale: the maintenance mode 712 00:57:47.620 --> 00:57:49.839 Aaron McHale: will not show the main support message. 713 00:57:50.366 --> 00:57:51.239 Aaron McHale: Cause it's 714 00:57:52.270 --> 00:57:56.700 Aaron McHale: tech, like technically pages are cached after 715 00:57:57.430 --> 00:58:01.250 Aaron McHale: you would turn this on. Well, so maybe it's something like 716 00:58:02.580 --> 00:58:04.630 Aaron McHale: pages which 717 00:58:06.600 --> 00:58:08.480 Aaron McHale: something like pages which were 718 00:58:08.640 --> 00:58:10.530 Aaron McHale: previously cached 719 00:58:12.770 --> 00:58:14.050 Aaron McHale: will not. 720 00:58:15.060 --> 00:58:18.359 Aaron McHale: will not show the maintenance, mode, message. 721 00:58:23.120 --> 00:58:26.670 benji: So instead of cached pages, you want pages that were previously cached. 722 00:58:29.250 --> 00:58:33.129 Aaron McHale: Yeah, or actually, the maintenance. What Ralph's right in the maintenance model 723 00:58:33.170 --> 00:58:35.319 Aaron McHale: message will not show. 724 00:58:35.980 --> 00:58:37.849 Aaron McHale: Should we disabled dot show 725 00:58:39.200 --> 00:58:41.379 Aaron McHale: rather than will not be shown 726 00:58:41.690 --> 00:58:42.930 Aaron McHale: will not show. 727 00:58:44.350 --> 00:58:46.759 Aaron McHale: I'm thinking, will not show on 728 00:58:49.920 --> 00:58:52.210 Aaron McHale: already cached pages. 729 00:58:52.660 --> 00:58:54.943 Aaron McHale: or something to that effect. 730 00:59:01.430 --> 00:59:07.539 benji: Okay? So so first, st I, I think a non controversial change. Please add a comma after to clear the cache. 731 00:59:10.550 --> 00:59:11.240 Randy Oest (he/him): Agreed. 732 00:59:11.240 --> 00:59:11.820 Aaron McHale: Yeah. 733 00:59:13.750 --> 00:59:15.520 benji: And then we're 734 00:59:15.830 --> 00:59:18.610 benji: getting close to the end. We have 5 more minutes. 735 00:59:19.290 --> 00:59:26.099 benji: So again, I think we've we have clear consensus to just show the status message. 736 00:59:28.510 --> 00:59:30.010 benji: I think if we can 737 00:59:30.620 --> 00:59:32.550 benji: combine or 738 00:59:33.510 --> 00:59:36.829 benji: combine the the sales messages, we should 739 00:59:37.855 --> 00:59:41.010 benji: if we can't get rid of 740 00:59:41.440 --> 00:59:44.050 benji: the default message, then. 741 00:59:45.325 --> 00:59:46.010 benji: I 742 00:59:46.080 --> 00:59:48.008 benji: I still think that 743 00:59:49.480 --> 00:59:56.419 benji: the message. The site is now in maintenance. Mode is the responsibility of the system module and not the page cache module. 744 00:59:57.200 --> 00:59:59.260 benji: so I would. I would. 745 01:00:02.070 --> 01:00:03.439 benji: I guess the 746 01:00:04.470 --> 01:00:08.889 benji: 1st preference, if it's feasible, is to combine 747 01:00:09.490 --> 01:00:12.670 benji: saves messages into one with the 3 sentences. 748 01:00:14.430 --> 01:00:16.920 benji: if that's not technically feasible. 749 01:00:17.170 --> 01:00:23.049 benji: and my second choice would be to change. The 1st message to the site is now in maintenance mode. 750 01:00:23.610 --> 01:00:26.970 benji: and have the second one be 2 sentences. 751 01:00:29.050 --> 01:00:29.670 Aaron McHale: Yeah. 752 01:00:30.350 --> 01:00:31.910 Aaron McHale: actually, Ralph, it's 753 01:00:34.890 --> 01:00:39.150 Aaron McHale: So we've got the the maintenance mode message will not be shown to users 754 01:00:40.180 --> 01:00:40.990 Aaron McHale: is 755 01:00:41.620 --> 01:00:43.599 Aaron McHale: also not is. 756 01:00:44.760 --> 01:00:46.960 Aaron McHale: I saw that won't be shown to users just 757 01:00:47.410 --> 01:00:52.989 Aaron McHale: on on pages which were already cached. I'm trying to figure out how we can work that into the wording, though. 758 01:00:58.530 --> 01:00:59.260 Ralf Koller: Something like that. 759 01:00:59.260 --> 01:01:03.290 benji: You're you're fighting against, you know, trying to explain all the things 760 01:01:03.670 --> 01:01:04.970 benji: and. 761 01:01:07.840 --> 01:01:10.140 Andrei Zvonkov: Also quick thing. Performance setting 762 01:01:10.290 --> 01:01:15.100 Andrei Zvonkov: page is I'm assuming that would be a link. And it's is it performance 763 01:01:15.360 --> 01:01:20.189 Andrei Zvonkov: page or performance settings page, because I think it's just performance, but I don't know if it's. 764 01:01:21.430 --> 01:01:22.350 benji: That we'd. 765 01:01:27.950 --> 01:01:29.330 Ralf Koller: Best performance. Yep. 766 01:01:34.090 --> 01:01:36.200 Ralf Koller: So drop settings. 767 01:01:37.090 --> 01:01:37.720 benji: Yes. 768 01:01:38.040 --> 01:01:39.249 benji: this is more. 769 01:01:41.480 --> 01:01:44.170 Aaron McHale: Then I guess Performance Page would be a link. 770 01:01:44.170 --> 01:01:44.890 Ralf Koller: Yeah, 771 01:01:51.210 --> 01:01:52.259 Ralf Koller: and it's both. 772 01:02:11.050 --> 01:02:16.199 Aaron McHale: we, yeah, we could just simplify that second sentence. Let's say the maintenance mode message 773 01:02:16.330 --> 01:02:20.680 Aaron McHale: will not show on already cached pages. 774 01:02:21.290 --> 01:02:21.950 Ralf Koller: Not. 775 01:02:32.080 --> 01:02:34.949 Aaron McHale: Or display will not display. Is that better? 776 01:02:36.030 --> 01:02:38.590 Aaron McHale: We use the word display more, I think. 777 01:02:39.560 --> 01:02:40.380 Aaron McHale: Do we 778 01:02:40.940 --> 01:02:42.700 Aaron McHale: show display? Oh. 779 01:02:45.980 --> 01:02:49.769 benji: So we do have to wrap up. We have 2 more minutes, can, and 780 01:02:52.260 --> 01:02:59.429 Andrei Zvonkov: Do we want? Do we need already, as in the maintenance mesh will not show on already cache pages just 781 01:02:59.450 --> 01:03:00.970 Andrei Zvonkov: dropped the already? 782 01:03:01.940 --> 01:03:02.520 Andrei Zvonkov: Not sure. 783 01:03:02.520 --> 01:03:03.090 Aaron McHale: Think 784 01:03:03.480 --> 01:03:04.769 Aaron McHale: I did suggest. 785 01:03:04.960 --> 01:03:09.840 Aaron McHale: I was thinking that because it's like it, it will show in cache pages, but only after 786 01:03:10.430 --> 01:03:15.700 Aaron McHale: like I'll show on pages after what they're cached after the form submitted. 787 01:03:16.270 --> 01:03:20.029 Aaron McHale: So it's more about like exist pages which have already been cached. I guess 788 01:03:20.340 --> 01:03:22.070 Aaron McHale: that was my, that was my thinking. 789 01:03:30.610 --> 01:03:33.150 Aaron McHale: or a previously cache video. I don't know. 790 01:03:33.670 --> 01:03:34.520 Aaron McHale: We keep. 791 01:03:52.240 --> 01:03:56.750 benji: I think that the idea you're trying to convey is a paragraph, not a sentence, and. 792 01:03:56.750 --> 01:03:57.370 Ralf Koller: That I. 793 01:03:57.370 --> 01:03:58.750 Aaron McHale: I think that. 794 01:04:00.180 --> 01:04:05.636 benji: I think that we have to settle for a sentence here, so I I still vote for the 795 01:04:06.310 --> 01:04:08.439 benji: second version from the bottom. 796 01:04:11.310 --> 01:04:12.070 Ralf Koller: That one. 797 01:04:12.930 --> 01:04:13.580 Ralf Koller: Yeah. 798 01:04:13.780 --> 01:04:14.420 benji: And 799 01:04:15.870 --> 01:04:16.810 benji: that version? 800 01:04:19.450 --> 01:04:24.380 benji: just have a minute or 2 left. Shall we have a quick vote on on the these 2, or 801 01:04:26.930 --> 01:04:28.120 benji: is that close enough. 802 01:04:28.620 --> 01:04:31.159 benji: So I vote for the 1st one, anyone else. 803 01:04:35.280 --> 01:04:37.150 benji: and who votes for the second version. 804 01:04:38.830 --> 01:04:40.600 Andrei Zvonkov: I think I'll go for the second one. 805 01:04:40.950 --> 01:04:41.770 Andrei Zvonkov: Okay. 806 01:04:42.860 --> 01:04:45.309 benji: Erin. On that we have 2 votes for that one 807 01:04:47.180 --> 01:04:51.999 benji: bill, 2 against one with 2 abstentions, is not a consensus, so. 808 01:04:52.150 --> 01:04:54.429 Ralf Koller: I voted for the 1st one, I suppose. 809 01:04:54.430 --> 01:04:55.285 benji: Okay. 810 01:04:56.140 --> 01:04:57.799 Ralf Koller: Also in the, in, the, in chat. 811 01:04:58.200 --> 01:05:01.918 benji: I missed that. Okay, so there's definitely not a consensus. 812 01:05:02.950 --> 01:05:09.050 benji: Oh, and I missed seamless comment. Devil's advocate would say that toggling maintenance mode on and off 813 01:05:09.450 --> 01:05:10.290 benji: might 814 01:05:11.530 --> 01:05:15.149 benji: leave messages on pages in the Prior cache. 815 01:05:23.460 --> 01:05:30.709 benji: yeah, I don't know if maintenance mode messages get cached that that I think, would be out of scope that that would. That's a problem if it happens. 816 01:05:32.800 --> 01:05:36.780 benji: But but here we're just worrying about the messaging to the admin user. 817 01:05:36.880 --> 01:05:42.560 benji: Okay, so we don't have a consensus. So present both of them on the issue. And 818 01:05:43.150 --> 01:05:47.519 benji: and we we can get further opinions from from the people 819 01:05:47.620 --> 01:05:48.950 benji: working on the issue. 820 01:05:49.270 --> 01:05:52.509 benji: and I think we have to wrap it there. Any last comments. 821 01:05:55.690 --> 01:05:56.559 benji: We're actually a couple. 822 01:05:56.560 --> 01:05:57.780 Aaron McHale: Ash is hard. 823 01:05:59.220 --> 01:05:59.710 benji: So. 824 01:05:59.710 --> 01:06:01.800 Aaron McHale: My last comment, yeah. 825 01:06:02.690 --> 01:06:04.927 Andrei Zvonkov: Yeah, naming things is hard. Yeah. 826 01:06:05.300 --> 01:06:06.789 Aaron McHale: Anything's this hard. 827 01:06:08.780 --> 01:06:09.950 Aaron McHale: thanks. Everyone. 828 01:06:10.130 --> 01:06:10.640 Aaron McHale: Yeah. 829 01:06:10.640 --> 01:06:12.499 benji: Thanks. Everyone for coming. Bye. 830 01:06:12.970 --> 01:06:13.630 benji: Okay.