WEBVTT 57 00:13:16.250 --> 00:13:20.489 benji: Welcome. This is the drupal usability meeting for August 32,024. 58 00:13:20.760 --> 00:13:25.850 benji: I'm Benji Fisher, moderating. And also here are Ralph Kohler sharing their screen. 59 00:13:26.010 --> 00:13:30.090 benji: Randy Ost, Thomas Howell and Simo Helston. 60 00:13:31.530 --> 00:13:33.040 benji: go ahead, Ralph. 61 00:13:34.283 --> 00:13:43.729 Ralf Koller: We are looking at issue number 2, 1, 1, 8 0, 8, 1. Unmet module requirements are too hard to find on admin modules. 62 00:13:44.090 --> 00:13:47.355 Ralf Koller: It's basically about at the moment. 63 00:13:48.790 --> 00:13:53.379 Ralf Koller: if you have a module with unmet module requirements 64 00:13:53.700 --> 00:13:54.780 Ralf Koller: for one. 65 00:13:55.230 --> 00:13:58.470 Ralf Koller: the checkbox is disabled, and 66 00:13:59.290 --> 00:14:00.800 Ralf Koller: the 67 00:14:00.890 --> 00:14:08.770 Ralf Koller: summer of the details. Element is basically collapsed. And therefore it's not directly apparent. What the actual 68 00:14:08.780 --> 00:14:10.069 Ralf Koller: problem is. 69 00:14:10.940 --> 00:14:11.470 Ralf Koller: Oops 70 00:14:12.340 --> 00:14:13.920 Ralf Koller: just reload it 71 00:14:14.070 --> 00:14:17.340 Ralf Koller: for demonstration purposes. That's the way. So basically. 72 00:14:17.855 --> 00:14:20.940 Ralf Koller: you have a great out check box and 73 00:14:21.180 --> 00:14:25.970 Ralf Koller: it's collapsed. And if you expand it, in that case it's an incompatibility. 74 00:14:26.665 --> 00:14:28.480 Ralf Koller: With 1111. 75 00:14:30.770 --> 00:14:32.020 Ralf Koller: And 76 00:14:32.160 --> 00:14:33.350 Ralf Koller: the 77 00:14:33.890 --> 00:14:42.699 Ralf Koller: suggestion, the proposed resolution is possibly expand the module information automatically when there are missing requirements 78 00:14:43.370 --> 00:14:45.919 Ralf Koller: aside that there is not really 79 00:14:46.880 --> 00:14:47.930 Ralf Koller: any 80 00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:51.959 Ralf Koller: other suggestion or nor discussion. 81 00:14:53.790 --> 00:14:57.480 Ralf Koller: That's basically the status quo. 82 00:14:57.830 --> 00:14:59.190 Ralf Koller: Any questions. 83 00:15:01.830 --> 00:15:06.640 benji: Person any questions about what the issue is about. And and also 84 00:15:06.780 --> 00:15:09.859 benji: I see that Andre Zvankov has just joined us. 85 00:15:12.670 --> 00:15:15.070 Randy Oest (he/him): No questions about what the issue is. 86 00:15:16.740 --> 00:15:17.410 Randy Oest (he/him): Okay. 87 00:15:19.461 --> 00:15:24.099 benji: So is this a good idea? Is there a better implementation? 88 00:15:25.280 --> 00:15:26.770 benji: Pros? Cons. 89 00:15:28.140 --> 00:15:29.100 benji: go ahead, Ralph. 90 00:15:30.652 --> 00:15:34.750 Ralf Koller: In regards of the suggestion. For one. 91 00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:44.900 Ralf Koller: I'm not sure if expanding the requirements mean requirements would would have enough affordance that the user won't cross over and miss the important details, anyway. 92 00:15:45.520 --> 00:15:51.969 Ralf Koller: And nor it would provide much of a difference or improvement from my perspective. And. 93 00:15:52.750 --> 00:15:55.969 Ralf Koller: on the other hand, there's also the point about yeah. The 94 00:15:56.755 --> 00:16:03.060 Ralf Koller: disabled checkbox, grayed out could also missed just based on the color contrast. 95 00:16:03.100 --> 00:16:07.349 Ralf Koller: And one thought I had was one. Option might be. 96 00:16:07.470 --> 00:16:10.590 Ralf Koller: go with a warning message. But from my perspective 97 00:16:10.880 --> 00:16:12.240 Ralf Koller: a bit. 98 00:16:13.010 --> 00:16:15.709 Ralf Koller: take a completely different angle in the 99 00:16:15.900 --> 00:16:17.470 Ralf Koller: in the context of 100 00:16:17.980 --> 00:16:20.480 Ralf Koller: project broader on the horizon. 101 00:16:21.700 --> 00:16:29.270 Ralf Koller: And we've had one issue about the install and uninstall module page, and there. 102 00:16:29.570 --> 00:16:33.729 Ralf Koller: for the uninstallation we suggested in one of the 103 00:16:34.180 --> 00:16:38.490 Ralf Koller: child issues to basically take the path that's brush 104 00:16:39.060 --> 00:16:40.389 Ralf Koller: a Pmu 105 00:16:40.880 --> 00:17:01.490 Ralf Koller: uses. So you're able to uninstall something in one take. And why not? Simply with package manager and project balls are available, do something similar here the other way around basically have no disabled check boxes on the extend page anymore. And in case there are some. Yeah, for example, like here incompatibility. 106 00:17:01.670 --> 00:17:07.020 Ralf Koller: then it's impossible. But, for example, if there's a dependency missing, simply 107 00:17:08.089 --> 00:17:12.350 Ralf Koller: provide the opportunity to actually install it. So meaning. 108 00:17:12.500 --> 00:17:18.610 Ralf Koller: You check the checkbox, and you maybe get a step with a confirmation message saying, hey? 109 00:17:19.000 --> 00:17:27.060 Ralf Koller: composer will now require a dependency that is missing and not on your file system yet, and that way 110 00:17:27.839 --> 00:17:31.509 Ralf Koller: it would be way more actionable and more convenient. 111 00:17:35.700 --> 00:17:36.590 benji: Okay? 112 00:17:37.130 --> 00:17:40.440 benji: So you're suggesting that we 113 00:17:40.850 --> 00:17:44.090 benji: don't try to fix it on this page, but rather 114 00:17:45.330 --> 00:17:50.170 benji: hope that the the project browser will give a better user experience. 115 00:17:50.170 --> 00:17:51.230 Ralf Koller: Notion. 116 00:17:51.290 --> 00:17:52.970 Ralf Koller: I mean on that page. 117 00:17:53.070 --> 00:18:02.899 Ralf Koller: So meaning project browser or technically package manager should do the heavy lifting behind the scenes, and 118 00:18:02.990 --> 00:18:05.429 Ralf Koller: everything should stay on that extend page. 119 00:18:05.710 --> 00:18:06.470 benji: I see. 120 00:18:06.810 --> 00:18:14.350 benji: So even if you don't have the project Browser enabled, or or even if it's enabled. But you're looking at this page rather than the browse page. 121 00:18:16.670 --> 00:18:18.725 benji: Let the package manager 122 00:18:20.100 --> 00:18:24.319 benji: install modules from source as well as enable them. 123 00:18:24.730 --> 00:18:28.860 Ralf Koller: But yeah, it doesn't cover the case of an incompatibility. That way 124 00:18:29.290 --> 00:18:33.699 Ralf Koller: would have to be covered. But at least those that are mentioned in the issue. Summary 125 00:18:35.980 --> 00:18:37.380 Ralf Koller: of something missing. 126 00:18:39.610 --> 00:18:43.419 Ralf Koller: for example, an external dependency that way. It would be covered. 127 00:18:47.900 --> 00:18:51.879 benji: Okay. Randy, what do you want to say? 128 00:18:53.202 --> 00:18:56.457 Randy Oest (he/him): So my my thought on this 129 00:18:57.090 --> 00:19:18.180 Randy Oest (he/him): was to take inspiration from the available updates and available updates very clearly, like marks, with green, yellow, and red, as well as some iconography and text. You know. If there's like an update available, if it's up to date, if there's like not supported. 130 00:19:19.288 --> 00:19:24.439 Randy Oest (he/him): And I think that if we wanted to update this, I would take inspiration 131 00:19:24.520 --> 00:19:25.830 Randy Oest (he/him): from that 132 00:19:26.112 --> 00:19:34.817 Randy Oest (he/him): to maybe apply here like it would be really great to have, like, you know, a circle, a red circle with a red line through it to indicate that there's a problem. 133 00:19:36.550 --> 00:19:39.630 Randy Oest (he/him): and a little snippet of like text 134 00:19:39.750 --> 00:19:45.235 Randy Oest (he/him): like, See there in the upper right hand corner. It says, not supported. And then we've got up to date. 135 00:19:46.040 --> 00:19:49.190 Randy Oest (he/him): you know. I think if we did something like that that would 136 00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:53.730 Randy Oest (he/him): help communicate to users that there's a problem with that particular module. 137 00:19:54.148 --> 00:19:59.170 Randy Oest (he/him): I don't know what the language would be, or maybe you know, the visual language or the text. 138 00:19:59.190 --> 00:20:08.860 Randy Oest (he/him): But I would want to take my inspiration from this, because it's a system that's already inside of drupal, and I would just want to repeat that pattern. 139 00:20:09.610 --> 00:20:11.070 Randy Oest (he/him): That's my 2 cents. 140 00:20:13.590 --> 00:20:18.220 benji: Okay, so perhaps fine, instead of 141 00:20:18.360 --> 00:20:24.760 benji: expanding it by default, find some visual clue to make it a little easier to find. 142 00:20:25.830 --> 00:20:26.780 Randy Oest (he/him): Correct. 143 00:20:26.980 --> 00:20:27.300 benji: Okay. 144 00:20:27.300 --> 00:20:28.090 Randy Oest (he/him): Correct. 145 00:20:29.885 --> 00:20:30.720 benji: Thomas. 146 00:20:33.253 --> 00:20:35.346 Thomas Howell: I I wanted to 147 00:20:36.020 --> 00:20:39.259 Thomas Howell: reinforce Ralph's 148 00:20:39.610 --> 00:20:50.840 Thomas Howell: concern about this not being the right approach. I keep on thinking about sites with lots and lots of modules where there's just so much noise. Going through that 149 00:20:51.760 --> 00:21:16.719 Thomas Howell: and seeing everything expanded doesn't seem like a a positive solution. I think of it as a white space type solution. I don't like using white space and having meaning in the white space. So I don't like opening it. And then someone's supposed to supposed to be able to understand that the reason all these things are open every time they go to this page, that it that they need to act on it, or that it means something special. 150 00:21:17.076 --> 00:21:26.353 Thomas Howell: I get that. It's supposed to be helpful. But it again. It just adds a lot of noise to the information, and so I don't like 151 00:21:26.710 --> 00:21:42.049 Thomas Howell: the current solution. I could get behind either the ones that have been suggested. Or we could continue to explore other options. But I would definitely go back and say that this solution isn't 1 that I'm I support. 152 00:21:42.330 --> 00:21:43.239 Thomas Howell: Thank you. 153 00:21:43.760 --> 00:21:48.000 benji: Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. I've certainly seen sites where there are 154 00:21:48.530 --> 00:21:54.389 benji: lots and lots of module dependencies listed, and if you were to open up even a few of them 155 00:21:54.520 --> 00:21:59.749 benji: because of a missing dependency, it would be would make the page really difficult to navigate. 156 00:22:00.710 --> 00:22:01.759 benji: Go ahead, Simail. 157 00:22:02.290 --> 00:22:05.900 Simo Hellsten: Yeah, I was thinking something similar to 158 00:22:06.859 --> 00:22:11.450 Simo Hellsten: this one with a background color and icon and text. 159 00:22:11.670 --> 00:22:14.289 Simo Hellsten: But also I noticed that 160 00:22:14.380 --> 00:22:18.850 Simo Hellsten: 1. 1 of the things we do with modules. We have show that 161 00:22:19.030 --> 00:22:20.030 Simo Hellsten: my cat 162 00:22:20.380 --> 00:22:21.569 Simo Hellsten: on that 163 00:22:21.790 --> 00:22:25.650 Simo Hellsten: extent page we show modules that are deprecated. 164 00:22:25.890 --> 00:22:31.649 Simo Hellsten: so we could also use that similar similar style to that deprecated information 165 00:22:32.660 --> 00:22:35.769 Simo Hellsten: that's in for 166 00:22:35.790 --> 00:22:37.900 Simo Hellsten: telling that it's incompatible. 167 00:22:40.230 --> 00:22:41.969 Simo Hellsten: So similar 168 00:22:42.340 --> 00:22:44.450 Simo Hellsten: this toilet would be another option. 169 00:22:46.210 --> 00:22:54.099 benji: Let's see, I think we're looking at 1111 here. So all the deprecated modules have already been removed. 170 00:22:55.141 --> 00:22:58.089 benji: Maybe I can prepare a link with 171 00:22:58.790 --> 00:23:03.509 benji: 1110 and and have a look at that in in a couple of minutes. 172 00:23:04.210 --> 00:23:07.430 benji: But, Thomas, you wanna say something more. 173 00:23:08.552 --> 00:23:22.449 Thomas Howell: I I didn't know if we go to the top of the page. Is there filtering, or things that we can do that allow us to easily access. So I know there's the filter by name or description, but it would be nice if there was like a checkbox at the top. That was for 174 00:23:22.500 --> 00:23:46.550 Thomas Howell: whatever the condition is, whatever we want to call it, like you check the box, and it just shows you things that are disabled, and we can't enable, for whatever reason. So for me, I always find being able to filter on that type of category to be very, very helpful, because then, at the very least, I get a quick view of everything that's out of date, for instance, or everything that needs to be changed. 175 00:23:54.390 --> 00:24:04.889 benji: So you're thinking about that adding something at the top of the page is going to make it easier to to find by filtering. I I think the rest of us are thinking in terms of sort of a visual clue 176 00:24:05.590 --> 00:24:09.829 benji: in the line to suggest that you open up the details element. 177 00:24:10.070 --> 00:24:31.520 Thomas Howell: Right. And I was just like I like, because the reason I'd be looking at something in particular would be because I was trying to think about updating the site or needing to maybe get rid of that module and find an alternative for it. And so, being able to see everything that needed that type of action is the type of filtering and sorting that I tend to do so 178 00:24:31.520 --> 00:24:50.770 Thomas Howell: for me. That is how I operate. I don't know if anyone else would. But like I I'm thinking again. And I've got lots and lots of modules. But today I'm going through the site and I'm trying to figure out what it is I need to update having to scroll and then find something that I have to operate on, and then scroll and find something I have to operate is tedious. 179 00:24:51.093 --> 00:24:57.559 Thomas Howell: I like being able to just include or exclude. So I guess a checkbox is a bad thing, but like 180 00:24:57.560 --> 00:25:18.309 Thomas Howell: I'd show everything, show it with the things that are deprecated, and show it without the things that are deprecated. And I don't think deprecated is the right term, because there may be other conditions where it's been grayed out. But whatever the grayed out condition is what we call it, I'd like to be able to look at that in those 3 views like, show me everything. Show me all this stuff 181 00:25:18.310 --> 00:25:31.879 Thomas Howell: without things that I'm not going to worry about, and show me all the things, because that reduces the amount of information I have to process on the page, because the grayed out boxes are things I can't use can't do anything about, at least in the current page. 182 00:25:31.910 --> 00:25:38.050 Thomas Howell: And so I either want to be able to think about acting on them, or I want to be able to exclude them, because I'm not worried about it today. 183 00:25:41.400 --> 00:25:47.419 benji: Okay, that that seems like a sort of a related suggestion, but maybe out of scope for the current issue. But. 184 00:25:47.800 --> 00:25:48.400 Thomas Howell: Sure. 185 00:25:49.487 --> 00:25:50.560 benji: Ralph! Go ahead! 186 00:25:52.950 --> 00:25:55.389 Ralf Koller: One question to simo 187 00:25:56.750 --> 00:25:58.210 Ralf Koller: Do you mean 188 00:25:58.800 --> 00:26:06.310 Ralf Koller: add something similar, like deprecated for basically modules that are missing a dependency. So 189 00:26:06.590 --> 00:26:08.140 Ralf Koller: in parentheses. 190 00:26:10.063 --> 00:26:12.749 Ralf Koller: For example, missing, for example. Yeah. Okay. 191 00:26:14.043 --> 00:26:16.010 Ralf Koller: Yeah. That would be it. 192 00:26:17.250 --> 00:26:24.150 Ralf Koller: Good idea. And I also, I sort of also like Thomas's point. 193 00:26:24.883 --> 00:26:37.290 Ralf Koller: To provide some sort of filtering so that you yeah, able to filter only for duplicated modules. And, for for example, modules that are missing. Any dependencies. 194 00:26:38.032 --> 00:26:44.519 Ralf Koller: You know that basically, the list is just reduced. Cause, for example, if you take a look at triple Cms, if you have. 195 00:26:44.730 --> 00:26:46.310 Ralf Koller: I don't know a list of 196 00:26:49.260 --> 00:26:57.910 Ralf Koller: 3 or 4 times the size of this one. Then spotting any deprecated or missing modules 197 00:26:58.020 --> 00:27:02.769 Ralf Koller: becomes sort of yeah. A needle in the highstack problem. 198 00:27:03.590 --> 00:27:07.359 Ralf Koller: and having something that is just reducing the number of modules 199 00:27:07.800 --> 00:27:11.963 Ralf Koller: to the ones just in question. Where those things apply. 200 00:27:12.600 --> 00:27:14.880 Ralf Koller: not the bad, not the worst idea. 201 00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:16.630 Ralf Koller: Let's put it that way. So 202 00:27:17.250 --> 00:27:22.370 Ralf Koller: something to consider from my point of view as well. But yeah, out of the scope, probably for this issue. 203 00:27:26.140 --> 00:27:30.049 benji: How did you get an example of a deprecated module? I thought you were 204 00:27:30.380 --> 00:27:32.340 benji: looking at Tuple 11. 205 00:27:35.052 --> 00:27:37.019 Ralf Koller: The one that was 206 00:27:38.260 --> 00:27:42.529 Ralf Koller: that deprecated module is basically a 207 00:27:43.140 --> 00:27:46.260 Ralf Koller: a feature. I don't. 208 00:27:46.880 --> 00:27:50.459 Ralf Koller: I forgot the term to. It's something it's 209 00:27:50.780 --> 00:27:53.899 Ralf Koller: actually not really a module. It's a feature flag. 210 00:27:54.580 --> 00:27:56.579 Ralf Koller: It's basically a feature flag that one. 211 00:27:57.950 --> 00:27:58.610 benji: All right. 212 00:27:59.040 --> 00:28:01.430 Ralf Koller: And the other is from admin toolbar. 213 00:28:01.930 --> 00:28:02.590 benji: Okay? 214 00:28:05.120 --> 00:28:07.344 benji: So they're they're contrive modules. 215 00:28:08.100 --> 00:28:11.199 Ralf Koller: Only the admin toolbar, the other one is in core. 216 00:28:11.350 --> 00:28:12.540 Ralf Koller: The feature flag. 217 00:28:13.140 --> 00:28:14.140 benji: All right. All right. 218 00:28:14.470 --> 00:28:15.950 benji: I stand corrected. 219 00:28:18.170 --> 00:28:19.140 benji: soap. 220 00:28:20.050 --> 00:28:31.820 benji: Yeah, adding some filters. This page. I I think that's reasonable idea. Again. I think it's out of scope. I also think that we've talked about that in the context of the project, Browser. 221 00:28:32.590 --> 00:28:34.210 benji: And it's 222 00:28:35.620 --> 00:28:43.289 benji: it's been a long discussion there. It so I I guess it's more complicated than it seems at 1st blush. 223 00:28:43.740 --> 00:28:45.680 benji: So just to 224 00:28:45.780 --> 00:28:50.789 benji: control scope. And I get a thumbs up from Thomas on that just control scope. Let's 225 00:28:51.160 --> 00:28:55.070 benji: think in terms of what we might do. 226 00:28:57.440 --> 00:29:03.930 benji: just to add some visual clues here, as Randy suggested. Maybe we should use the little 227 00:29:04.080 --> 00:29:05.600 benji: X in a circle 228 00:29:05.880 --> 00:29:09.429 benji: icon that we're already using on the 229 00:29:09.490 --> 00:29:11.090 benji: available updates. 230 00:29:11.310 --> 00:29:12.410 benji: Report. 231 00:29:13.490 --> 00:29:14.970 benji: Is there 232 00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:16.870 benji: some way we we could 233 00:29:17.580 --> 00:29:18.846 benji: clue that 234 00:29:21.820 --> 00:29:24.339 benji: that that they should expand the details. 235 00:29:25.500 --> 00:29:26.279 benji: You know. 236 00:29:28.210 --> 00:29:29.790 benji: as as I say this, I 237 00:29:30.580 --> 00:29:34.849 benji: I still think that perhaps this is just a won't fix issue. 238 00:29:36.410 --> 00:29:42.339 benji: you know a details element. We're we're using the standard. HTML element. 239 00:29:44.710 --> 00:29:46.869 benji: I I don't see that it's 240 00:29:47.480 --> 00:29:54.210 benji: so unclear that that you should expand to details to get more information. 241 00:29:54.869 --> 00:30:01.870 benji: I'm not sure that there, there is a problem here that needs to be fixed, but but if we can make it a little more clear. Then 242 00:30:02.240 --> 00:30:03.700 benji: then let's do it. 243 00:30:03.830 --> 00:30:05.010 benji: Go ahead, Randy. 244 00:30:06.090 --> 00:30:08.200 Randy Oest (he/him): I think if we want to keep this simple 245 00:30:08.908 --> 00:30:24.149 Randy Oest (he/him): the entire strip from the checkbox on the left to the details block on the right that entire area could be shaded red like it is in the the report, the updates report. 246 00:30:24.330 --> 00:30:37.100 Randy Oest (he/him): and then we could add icon text, and then the rest of the details like label like right now, when enabled. This module, blah blah 247 00:30:37.879 --> 00:30:46.220 Randy Oest (he/him): if we did that, that would keep this pretty light of a lift, while, like, you know, making a change that communicated. 248 00:30:47.490 --> 00:30:49.429 benji: So I'm sorry you're suggesting 249 00:30:51.720 --> 00:30:53.540 benji: for example. 250 00:30:54.860 --> 00:30:59.050 benji: do. Do we have an example on this page where where it's actually disabled. 251 00:30:59.840 --> 00:31:01.129 Randy Oest (he/him): I don't think so. 252 00:31:01.470 --> 00:31:02.020 benji: Maybe not. 253 00:31:02.020 --> 00:31:02.870 Randy Oest (he/him): Oh, there. 254 00:31:03.250 --> 00:31:12.909 Randy Oest (he/him): yeah, so that the strip from the disabled checkbox, the entire background of it could be a light red 255 00:31:13.010 --> 00:31:15.200 Randy Oest (he/him): like it is in the 256 00:31:15.960 --> 00:31:17.380 Randy Oest (he/him): update report. 257 00:31:21.110 --> 00:31:24.519 benji: And then you'd want to add an icon and text. 258 00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:38.060 Randy Oest (he/him): We could potentially add an icon and text to prep end before the details expander. Where it says, this version is not compatible. 259 00:31:39.470 --> 00:31:42.319 Randy Oest (he/him): it could potentially prepend that. 260 00:31:50.070 --> 00:31:51.729 benji: That's a little much. 261 00:31:53.300 --> 00:31:55.590 Randy Oest (he/him): That is definitely not the right color for that. 262 00:32:01.330 --> 00:32:07.299 benji: okay, so you want to. This is, of course, a table, right? 263 00:32:09.690 --> 00:32:11.329 benji: and you want to 264 00:32:11.950 --> 00:32:19.679 benji: color the background of the table element containing the module, title, or module name. 265 00:32:21.260 --> 00:32:22.950 Randy Oest (he/him): The table. Row. Yes. 266 00:32:24.360 --> 00:32:25.380 benji: The whole row. 267 00:32:26.020 --> 00:32:26.959 Randy Oest (he/him): The whole row. 268 00:32:27.220 --> 00:32:28.020 benji: Okay. 269 00:32:28.790 --> 00:32:33.749 Randy Oest (he/him): Again. I want to. I want to pull in the same things that we're doing and available updates. 270 00:32:35.960 --> 00:32:39.059 benji: Okay. So you give a colored background to the whole row. 271 00:32:39.580 --> 00:32:40.870 benji: And then 272 00:32:41.340 --> 00:32:48.110 benji: in, instead of the standard icon for the details element, you want to say, open this for more information, or something like that. 273 00:32:49.000 --> 00:32:54.070 Randy Oest (he/him): I would continue to have the standard icon that carrot upper carrot down. 274 00:32:54.180 --> 00:33:01.970 Randy Oest (he/him): I would just want to add an icon and text before this version. That's maybe in red. 275 00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:06.309 Randy Oest (he/him): That could be used to communicate, like, you know, like 276 00:33:06.380 --> 00:33:19.280 Randy Oest (he/him): like incompatibility, or like, if we wanted to throw a flag. We could also not have that icon in text, and just have that background to be read and let people 277 00:33:19.460 --> 00:33:20.310 Randy Oest (he/him): click 278 00:33:21.140 --> 00:33:23.270 Randy Oest (he/him): the button to expand. 279 00:33:28.980 --> 00:33:29.780 benji: Okay. 280 00:33:29.780 --> 00:33:37.520 Randy Oest (he/him): Ralph's suggestion of replacing the disabled checkbox with the icon from the update page would also be good. 281 00:33:38.690 --> 00:33:47.470 benji: Yeah, we all know that disabled form elements such as the these disabled checkboxes are in general a bad idea. We've 282 00:33:48.120 --> 00:33:50.911 benji: been saying that for a long time. 283 00:33:53.130 --> 00:33:55.589 benji: that's an interesting suggestion. I wonder 284 00:33:55.640 --> 00:34:01.429 benji: how hard it would be to implement. But we we have the luxury of not worrying about implementation in these meetings. 285 00:34:02.310 --> 00:34:03.810 benji: Go ahead, Thomas. 286 00:34:04.981 --> 00:34:14.370 Thomas Howell: Not to be a negative, Nelly, but I really despise the update page. I find that it only works for me because it's only a few 287 00:34:15.230 --> 00:34:20.670 Thomas Howell: pieces of information. I hate the fact that I can't turn that red off. 288 00:34:20.739 --> 00:34:35.919 Thomas Howell: I can't turn the yellow off on things where I've made some decision as a site administrator, and it is not red warning. I don't want that. So like with this particular example, it's valid. But there's a lot of times where you're making a choice 289 00:34:37.590 --> 00:34:54.770 Thomas Howell: to not make a change to the updates page. And I can't control that. And it's a long, outstanding complaint of mine. So to port. That behavior over here into another page is not something that I'd want to see adding an icon. I could get behind that 290 00:34:55.126 --> 00:35:11.149 Thomas Howell: or changing the grayed out check box changing that behavior. But I don't like making a lot of color. It just becomes additional noise. That doesn't provide information. If I'm not going to act upon it because I've made a valid choice, and I can't 291 00:35:11.420 --> 00:35:15.469 Thomas Howell: undo that red. So I don't like that suggestion. 292 00:35:19.150 --> 00:35:20.140 benji: Okay. 293 00:35:23.142 --> 00:35:29.990 benji: any new ideas at this point? Or do we just have to choose between the ideas that we've already presented? 294 00:35:35.920 --> 00:35:40.199 benji: Okay, so what are our choices at this point? So so one is, do nothing. 295 00:35:43.900 --> 00:35:45.880 benji: another is 296 00:35:48.630 --> 00:35:49.510 benji: Just 297 00:35:49.680 --> 00:35:51.699 benji: replace the disabled 298 00:35:51.750 --> 00:35:54.970 benji: check box with a red X 299 00:35:57.520 --> 00:36:01.235 benji: Another is to color the whole row with 300 00:36:01.910 --> 00:36:05.110 benji: a pink or a light red background, and 301 00:36:05.260 --> 00:36:06.889 benji: possibly also 302 00:36:07.070 --> 00:36:09.349 benji: add some text or an icon to 303 00:36:10.880 --> 00:36:14.290 benji: make the details. Elements a little more obvious. 304 00:36:15.393 --> 00:36:20.729 benji: That's 3 options. Are. Are there any others? I I should be listing at this point. 305 00:36:27.260 --> 00:36:29.030 benji: Go ahead, Thomas. 306 00:36:29.974 --> 00:36:41.259 Thomas Howell: The original suggestion that I made in terms of filtering. To do the filtering, you would add an additional column that had metadata in it. So there would be a column 307 00:36:41.470 --> 00:36:53.779 Thomas Howell: that would say, like incompatible rather than embedding it in one of these 2 columns that currently exist. So, adding a 3rd column with metadata control information on this data. Something. 308 00:36:55.420 --> 00:36:57.790 Simo Hellsten: Would we also move deprecated 309 00:36:58.250 --> 00:36:59.960 Simo Hellsten: information to there? 310 00:37:00.060 --> 00:37:01.539 Simo Hellsten: Yeah. And I don't. 311 00:37:01.910 --> 00:37:04.529 Thomas Howell: Incompatible, deprecated whatever we wanted. 312 00:37:04.850 --> 00:37:23.430 Thomas Howell: I'm not worrying about implementation, or what would be best, because I think there needs to be testing, to see if that would even work, but the suggestion being because then you could filter on that column that would need to be a separate piece of metadata, so ignore the filtering that is out of scope for this, but simply moving it over, adding a a column. 313 00:37:23.790 --> 00:37:31.240 benji: Okay. But but I I think what Simo is asking is that we already have an indication that this module is deprecated. 314 00:37:31.780 --> 00:37:36.740 benji: Would you want to move that, so remove it from where it currently is, and. 315 00:37:36.740 --> 00:37:37.120 Thomas Howell: Guts. 316 00:37:37.120 --> 00:37:38.929 benji: Your new proposed column. 317 00:37:39.270 --> 00:38:03.500 Thomas Howell: I would move everything over there because you would then train like incompatible is hidden. And so for me, I would make incompatible or something along those lines like whatever the overriding concern, whatever we wanted to talk about, it means that you're putting it into a standardized space. That's the suggestion. I don't know that it's better, but that's what would be necessary at a line by line 318 00:38:03.870 --> 00:38:05.799 Thomas Howell: from a line by line 319 00:38:05.900 --> 00:38:07.030 Thomas Howell: position. 320 00:38:07.572 --> 00:38:13.010 Thomas Howell: To allow the type of filtering that I'd want in an in a follow-up issue. 321 00:38:14.480 --> 00:38:16.699 benji: Okay, and Randy has 322 00:38:17.380 --> 00:38:20.729 benji: prepared a couple of mock ups for us. 323 00:38:21.770 --> 00:38:22.820 benji: Ralph is 324 00:38:23.050 --> 00:38:24.299 benji: looking at them. 325 00:38:25.520 --> 00:38:33.369 Randy Oest (he/him): And I just want to say, like adding, a 3rd column is also perfectly valid. I just happen to know that I could put these comps together pretty quick. 326 00:38:34.940 --> 00:38:35.610 benji: Thanks. 327 00:38:39.397 --> 00:38:44.259 Simo Hellsten: One question about being incompatible and being replicated. 328 00:38:44.750 --> 00:38:45.580 Simo Hellsten: so 329 00:38:46.240 --> 00:38:48.250 Simo Hellsten: are those both 330 00:38:49.020 --> 00:38:50.710 Simo Hellsten: attributes of 331 00:38:50.860 --> 00:38:53.249 Simo Hellsten: a specific module version. 332 00:38:53.530 --> 00:38:54.979 Simo Hellsten: or is one 333 00:38:55.540 --> 00:38:57.000 Simo Hellsten: attribute to that 334 00:38:57.290 --> 00:39:00.429 Simo Hellsten: module as a whole, and the other one 335 00:39:00.540 --> 00:39:04.340 Simo Hellsten: an attribute to a specific version of the module. 336 00:39:07.220 --> 00:39:08.772 benji: A good question. 337 00:39:14.700 --> 00:39:17.850 benji: yeah, I think the the 338 00:39:17.870 --> 00:39:22.450 benji: deprecated flag is actually in the info dot yaml 339 00:39:22.530 --> 00:39:24.130 benji: of the module. 340 00:39:24.150 --> 00:39:27.819 benji: so it could be added or possibly removed. 341 00:39:28.417 --> 00:39:33.780 benji: In later versions. Typically, once it's deprecated, it doesn't get removed. 342 00:39:34.376 --> 00:39:36.310 benji: So I would say that 343 00:39:36.985 --> 00:39:38.620 benji: deprecated is certainly 344 00:39:39.150 --> 00:39:41.350 benji: dependent on the module version. 345 00:39:42.410 --> 00:39:44.190 benji: and incompatible. 346 00:39:44.230 --> 00:39:45.870 benji: I would say, is also 347 00:39:46.000 --> 00:39:48.160 benji: related to the version. 348 00:39:55.150 --> 00:39:57.370 Simo Hellsten: So it's basically the same. 349 00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:00.909 Simo Hellsten: How do you say area of effect. 350 00:40:01.490 --> 00:40:02.670 Simo Hellsten: or both of them? 351 00:40:04.650 --> 00:40:06.220 benji: I'm sorry. The same. What effect? 352 00:40:06.930 --> 00:40:09.010 Simo Hellsten: Yeah. So the kind of the 353 00:40:09.060 --> 00:40:15.309 Simo Hellsten: they are kind of in the same scope being deprecated and being incompatible, incompatible. 354 00:40:15.590 --> 00:40:15.910 benji: Yes. 355 00:40:16.162 --> 00:40:18.180 Simo Hellsten: With the current version. So it's kind of 356 00:40:18.800 --> 00:40:20.700 Simo Hellsten: it fits in the same column. 357 00:40:22.820 --> 00:40:23.920 benji: Yes, I think so. 358 00:40:33.130 --> 00:40:36.577 benji: Okay, so I guess 4 options. 359 00:40:37.100 --> 00:40:38.270 benji: do nothing. 360 00:40:39.245 --> 00:40:41.209 benji: Just replace the 361 00:40:43.690 --> 00:40:45.880 benji: check box with 362 00:40:46.010 --> 00:40:47.499 benji: some other icon 363 00:40:48.565 --> 00:40:55.389 benji: the more extensive change that that we're looking at now. That, Randy suggested. 364 00:41:02.180 --> 00:41:03.820 benji: Have I lost track of one? 365 00:41:04.300 --> 00:41:05.950 benji: That's only 3 options. 366 00:41:06.500 --> 00:41:08.420 Thomas Howell: Additional column of metadata. 367 00:41:09.230 --> 00:41:15.049 benji: Okay, right? That that's the the new option. We're considering an additional column of of metadata. 368 00:41:15.480 --> 00:41:16.540 benji: So 369 00:41:20.840 --> 00:41:22.600 benji: so the issue. 370 00:41:23.090 --> 00:41:26.829 benji: the the motivation for the issue is that. 371 00:41:27.060 --> 00:41:32.590 benji: yeah? Gee, I see that it can't be installed. I need some 372 00:41:33.060 --> 00:41:34.650 benji: visual clue 373 00:41:34.870 --> 00:41:37.610 benji: to tell me to open up the details element. 374 00:41:38.570 --> 00:41:45.270 benji: Do any of these address that issue? You know. Obviously the do nothing. Option doesn't address that. 375 00:41:45.430 --> 00:41:50.639 benji: If we just replace the disabled checkbox with some other icon. 376 00:41:51.682 --> 00:41:54.040 benji: Does that make it clearer that 377 00:41:54.120 --> 00:41:57.169 benji: to get more information you should open the details. Element. 378 00:41:59.334 --> 00:42:07.939 Simo Hellsten: I'm I did a comment on the chat basically saying that if we just add an icon and maybe a color background. 379 00:42:08.190 --> 00:42:16.879 Simo Hellsten: then the user might be mistaken to believe that the icon and color is there because that module is deprecated. 380 00:42:17.220 --> 00:42:23.819 Simo Hellsten: and not knowing that it's there because of the module is incompatible with the version. 381 00:42:32.900 --> 00:42:36.860 Simo Hellsten: So it should be clear, clear what causes that 382 00:42:37.080 --> 00:42:39.899 Simo Hellsten: possible icon and color change. 383 00:42:40.470 --> 00:42:44.930 Simo Hellsten: and if the details element is closed. The only kind of 384 00:42:45.020 --> 00:42:46.940 Simo Hellsten: in this view the only 385 00:42:46.950 --> 00:42:50.269 Simo Hellsten: difference would be that it's more deprecated. 386 00:42:51.540 --> 00:42:56.730 benji: Right? So that's closely related to the question I was asking that, you know, we're 387 00:42:57.150 --> 00:42:58.390 benji: we are not 388 00:42:59.690 --> 00:43:05.290 benji: encouraging the user to open the details element, which is what they have to do to to get that information. 389 00:43:23.860 --> 00:43:25.110 benji: so 390 00:43:25.990 --> 00:43:29.350 benji: do nothing. Option the icon option, the coloring. 391 00:43:29.690 --> 00:43:31.480 benji: None. None of these 392 00:43:31.540 --> 00:43:35.580 benji: really seems to me to address the initial problem that 393 00:43:35.730 --> 00:43:39.839 benji: I don't know that I'm supposed to open the details element to get more information. 394 00:43:40.725 --> 00:43:43.980 benji: Adding a new column to the table. 395 00:43:46.640 --> 00:43:52.359 benji: I think it's a reasonable thing to consider. But again, I don't see that it 396 00:43:54.590 --> 00:43:55.990 benji: really helps 397 00:43:57.050 --> 00:43:59.660 benji: draw attention to this details. Element 398 00:44:04.854 --> 00:44:10.690 benji: feel free to disagree, feel free to argue in favor of of any of these options. 399 00:44:11.330 --> 00:44:12.470 benji: Go ahead, Thomas. 400 00:44:13.610 --> 00:44:37.860 Thomas Howell: If we ignore the additional column as an option for me, I prefer the do nothing, because I don't want to be forced to have lots and lots of extra information, and I can't get past the if they. The the reason to open the details element is to get additional information. But if you provide information overload because you've got 401 00:44:37.960 --> 00:44:40.689 Thomas Howell: 20 or 30 of these all open. 402 00:44:41.430 --> 00:44:46.610 Thomas Howell: then it defeats its entire purpose. Like, I think there has to be 403 00:44:47.050 --> 00:44:59.990 Thomas Howell: some level of trust in the Site administrator to want to know the information. And so either we're making a choice to let them know that there's something special about this row that they then have to 404 00:45:00.120 --> 00:45:13.720 Thomas Howell: stop and think. And I and I don't know like I, I think all of these things run the risk of becoming background noise. I think to a certain extent this may be a problem that we can't fix if we're really focused on 405 00:45:13.930 --> 00:45:26.739 Thomas Howell: encouraging people to read the information in that details element, and that's we're not just trying to get them to open it. We're trying to get them to comprehend what's in there, in my opinion. 406 00:45:28.240 --> 00:45:37.379 benji: Okay. And you know, I I guess I didn't list as one of the options the proposed solution on the issue, which is to open it by default. 407 00:45:37.600 --> 00:45:39.829 benji: Is there anyone who 408 00:45:40.280 --> 00:45:42.579 benji: thinks that that's a viable option? 409 00:45:46.670 --> 00:45:49.309 benji: I'm not hearing anyone. I'm not seeing. 410 00:45:49.310 --> 00:45:49.760 Andrei Zvonkov: Yeah. 411 00:45:49.760 --> 00:45:50.860 benji: Up, or anything. 412 00:45:51.870 --> 00:45:56.430 Andrei Zvonkov: Agree. I I was just gonna actually my my 2 cents is 413 00:45:57.384 --> 00:45:58.920 Andrei Zvonkov: my question was, why 414 00:45:59.570 --> 00:46:02.450 Andrei Zvonkov: are they actually closed? In the 1st place. 415 00:46:02.470 --> 00:46:05.739 Andrei Zvonkov: I've looked through the few, and it seems like 416 00:46:05.800 --> 00:46:07.029 Andrei Zvonkov: some of them. 417 00:46:08.110 --> 00:46:09.479 Andrei Zvonkov: There's not a lot of 418 00:46:09.710 --> 00:46:11.769 Andrei Zvonkov: more additional information 419 00:46:12.620 --> 00:46:15.840 Andrei Zvonkov: in terms of when you click on the open there 420 00:46:16.020 --> 00:46:16.760 Andrei Zvonkov: the tab 421 00:46:16.990 --> 00:46:18.780 Andrei Zvonkov: and I also often 422 00:46:19.190 --> 00:46:21.342 Andrei Zvonkov: look for that configure 423 00:46:22.590 --> 00:46:25.630 Andrei Zvonkov: myself personally like for the configure 424 00:46:26.240 --> 00:46:27.120 Andrei Zvonkov: link 425 00:46:27.550 --> 00:46:29.039 Andrei Zvonkov: on some provided 426 00:46:29.650 --> 00:46:31.740 Andrei Zvonkov: with some of these modules. 427 00:46:32.570 --> 00:46:35.210 Andrei Zvonkov: So that's another reason, for maybe 428 00:46:35.490 --> 00:46:44.049 Andrei Zvonkov: in my mind for it to be not hidden or not to have an extra click, and I feel like actually scrolling through the thing, even though there's more 429 00:46:45.560 --> 00:46:49.800 Andrei Zvonkov: like vertically, there's more more stuff taken up by the list. 430 00:46:49.840 --> 00:46:52.069 Andrei Zvonkov: But I'd actually rather cease 431 00:46:52.620 --> 00:46:57.330 Andrei Zvonkov: stuff and scroll through it as opposed to click. Have an extra click 432 00:46:57.770 --> 00:46:59.220 Andrei Zvonkov: to open the dat. 433 00:46:59.580 --> 00:47:01.239 Andrei Zvonkov: That's just my 2 cents. 434 00:47:01.670 --> 00:47:07.170 benji: So so you're actually thinking, open every single one of these details. Elements by default. Yeah. 435 00:47:07.530 --> 00:47:10.460 Andrei Zvonkov: I mean to me it almost seems better. Yeah. 436 00:47:11.230 --> 00:47:15.060 benji: I mean Thomas and I both agree that we've seen sites where 437 00:47:15.210 --> 00:47:18.590 benji: the list of module dependencies gets very long. 438 00:47:18.810 --> 00:47:23.240 benji: This often happens when sites have feature modules. 439 00:47:25.270 --> 00:47:27.250 benji: and and there are lots and lots. 440 00:47:28.150 --> 00:47:30.880 benji: And it it really does get overwhelming. It can be 441 00:47:31.250 --> 00:47:37.280 benji: like 6 10 lines listing module dependencies for each of several modules. 442 00:47:39.130 --> 00:47:41.729 benji: and Ralph has been waiting to say something. 443 00:47:43.590 --> 00:47:44.812 Ralf Koller: Oh, thank you. 444 00:47:47.300 --> 00:47:48.560 Ralf Koller: I think 445 00:47:49.290 --> 00:47:51.530 Ralf Koller: you're right that none of the 446 00:47:51.570 --> 00:47:52.790 Ralf Koller: for 447 00:47:53.500 --> 00:47:56.639 Ralf Koller: options really is solving 448 00:47:56.860 --> 00:47:59.320 Ralf Koller: the initial problem. The issue is about. 449 00:47:59.630 --> 00:48:00.890 Ralf Koller: I think 450 00:48:01.230 --> 00:48:02.610 Ralf Koller: technically 451 00:48:03.240 --> 00:48:05.350 Ralf Koller: an improvement would be 452 00:48:05.400 --> 00:48:10.539 Ralf Koller: only so found that 2 suggestions that are out of the scope for this issue, one 453 00:48:10.740 --> 00:48:13.269 Ralf Koller: providing a filter option for 454 00:48:14.590 --> 00:48:17.059 Ralf Koller: Site administrators to deliberately 455 00:48:17.430 --> 00:48:20.070 Ralf Koller: filter for modules 456 00:48:20.220 --> 00:48:25.739 Ralf Koller: that have, for example, a deprecation or a missing dependency, or something alike 457 00:48:25.970 --> 00:48:30.080 Ralf Koller: that would be helpful from my perspective, and, on the other hand. 458 00:48:30.490 --> 00:48:31.840 Ralf Koller: I still think 459 00:48:32.050 --> 00:48:33.019 Ralf Koller: with it 460 00:48:33.500 --> 00:48:34.690 Ralf Koller: option of 461 00:48:35.150 --> 00:48:39.820 Ralf Koller: in the case of a missing dependency, provide the option to simply 462 00:48:39.990 --> 00:48:59.399 Ralf Koller: auto, install it by package manager that would also at least half of the issues would be obsolete that way. And one last point in regards of the visual representation of the modules, page or something. We've taken a look last week's 463 00:49:00.050 --> 00:49:02.399 Ralf Koller: a question I have is 464 00:49:02.970 --> 00:49:08.063 Ralf Koller: why we need technically a details element 465 00:49:09.010 --> 00:49:10.210 Ralf Koller: or at least 466 00:49:10.330 --> 00:49:15.779 Ralf Koller: it could be used for cases like you've suggested. You've mentioned Benji or Thomas's 467 00:49:15.800 --> 00:49:22.889 Ralf Koller: with 7 lines of dependencies, then it makes sense for those dependencies. But aside that simply 468 00:49:23.620 --> 00:49:25.720 Ralf Koller: have everything in a two-liner 469 00:49:25.990 --> 00:49:27.430 Ralf Koller: like Wordpress does 470 00:49:27.710 --> 00:49:29.039 Ralf Koller: that way. It's 471 00:49:29.390 --> 00:49:30.750 Ralf Koller: rather clear 472 00:49:30.920 --> 00:49:34.110 Ralf Koller: you have a situational awareness and 473 00:49:36.600 --> 00:49:37.920 Ralf Koller: and triple 474 00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:42.139 Ralf Koller: half of the information is hidden underneath 475 00:49:43.300 --> 00:49:44.820 Ralf Koller: in the details element. 476 00:50:05.050 --> 00:50:12.336 benji: So there's currently a lot of information in in the in drupal. That's not work that sweet. We have 477 00:50:12.960 --> 00:50:16.270 benji: permissions, configuration links. 478 00:50:16.710 --> 00:50:20.649 benji: That's 1 line. There's the version information that I see here in your 479 00:50:20.910 --> 00:50:21.950 benji: wordpress 480 00:50:22.925 --> 00:50:23.780 benji: and 481 00:50:23.910 --> 00:50:25.130 benji: but then there's that 482 00:50:25.410 --> 00:50:26.930 benji: dependency list 483 00:50:27.852 --> 00:50:33.739 benji: required by, and requires, both of which can be very, very long here. It's only 484 00:50:34.260 --> 00:50:39.300 benji: barely onto a second line, but it's often many more lines. Thomas. 485 00:50:41.310 --> 00:50:43.580 Thomas Howell: I I was just going to make a 486 00:50:44.600 --> 00:51:06.398 Thomas Howell: an attempt in a comedic comment by showing Wordpress. You're showing what I want, because, like from this from the filtering perspective. If you look at that wordpress page, it has precisely what I was asking for. Right below plugins you can filter upon the categories of things that you want. So for me, one of them would be deprecated, or would be 487 00:51:07.180 --> 00:51:13.762 Thomas Howell: wrong version, like incompatible with a version like I would. Just that's where I'd put that information. 488 00:51:14.590 --> 00:51:20.979 Thomas Howell: And so that is precisely what I was asking for. And so 489 00:51:21.010 --> 00:51:23.260 Thomas Howell: I I feel like you're teasing me, that's all. 490 00:51:25.150 --> 00:51:26.460 benji: Okay, yes. 491 00:51:28.450 --> 00:51:30.080 benji: we can certainly 492 00:51:31.230 --> 00:51:37.519 benji: borrow ideas from outside of drupal and wordpress has a lot of good ideas for user interface. 493 00:51:44.570 --> 00:51:51.010 benji: and I noticed the wordpress page also includes update information on the same page 494 00:51:54.620 --> 00:51:56.549 benji: rather than having a separate 495 00:51:57.360 --> 00:52:00.259 benji: tab for for update information. 496 00:52:02.056 --> 00:52:06.090 benji: I also noted if you go back to the issue page 497 00:52:08.640 --> 00:52:10.560 benji: it's a very old issue. 498 00:52:11.360 --> 00:52:14.008 benji: you know. It was opened by 499 00:52:14.640 --> 00:52:15.990 benji: Kathy Tays. 500 00:52:17.850 --> 00:52:22.409 benji: by the way, was one of the earliest winners of the Aaron Winborne award. 501 00:52:27.340 --> 00:52:29.420 benji: Can can you look at the issue, please? 502 00:52:31.120 --> 00:52:32.430 Ralf Koller: I'm looking at the issue. 503 00:52:34.460 --> 00:52:37.860 benji: Wrong issue. May. Maybe I'm not seeing what what you're looking. 504 00:52:38.090 --> 00:52:43.010 benji: Oh, I'm no, no, no, you're you're right, I this this is the right page. Sorry, my bad 505 00:52:43.998 --> 00:52:46.151 benji: if you scroll down. 506 00:52:48.450 --> 00:52:50.320 benji: The other 2 comments 507 00:52:51.680 --> 00:52:55.379 benji: from Kathy shortly after she opened it, and then a whole lot of 508 00:52:56.470 --> 00:52:57.870 benji: no interest 509 00:52:58.320 --> 00:53:00.339 benji: until it was added to the bugs. 510 00:53:00.390 --> 00:53:02.329 benji: Smash and initiative. 511 00:53:06.290 --> 00:53:07.470 benji: And 512 00:53:07.650 --> 00:53:09.680 benji: you know, one, this issue 513 00:53:09.730 --> 00:53:11.709 benji: doesn't seem to have a lot of interest 514 00:53:12.200 --> 00:53:13.870 benji: and 2. 515 00:53:14.070 --> 00:53:19.650 benji: It was made with a much older version of drupal. This. This issue was created in 2,013. 516 00:53:20.220 --> 00:53:28.840 benji: I don't think we were using details. Elements, in fact, was there details? Element in HTML in 2,013. 517 00:53:34.162 --> 00:53:36.760 benji: I I think that you know 518 00:53:37.530 --> 00:53:41.759 benji: triangle icon in the screenshot in the issue. Summary. 519 00:53:43.390 --> 00:53:46.319 benji: was a bit of custom markup. 520 00:53:48.410 --> 00:53:50.290 benji: So basically. 521 00:53:50.710 --> 00:53:53.210 benji: I'm advocating for 522 00:53:53.380 --> 00:53:56.460 benji: closing this issue as obsolete. 523 00:53:58.920 --> 00:54:00.030 benji: and I 524 00:54:00.200 --> 00:54:02.789 benji: actually looking at it a little more closely. I see it was 525 00:54:03.070 --> 00:54:07.700 benji: reported by Xjm, and then got 2 comments from 526 00:54:08.700 --> 00:54:10.369 benji: Kathy or Yes, CT. 527 00:54:16.300 --> 00:54:23.879 benji: I. My preference is is to close it as a won't fix. To say that the details element communicates the information 528 00:54:23.930 --> 00:54:26.000 benji: that this issue is asking for. 529 00:54:26.680 --> 00:54:35.869 benji: And so it may have been an issue when we were using custom markup. But now that we're using standard details element, I don't think we need to do anything here. 530 00:54:37.983 --> 00:54:42.350 benji: And you would care to advocate for one of the other options. 531 00:54:48.470 --> 00:54:50.622 Simo Hellsten: Just a side note. I just checked 532 00:54:51.400 --> 00:54:53.910 Simo Hellsten: one live 777 site. 533 00:54:54.180 --> 00:55:00.499 Simo Hellsten: And for what kind of details or more information element it has, and 534 00:55:01.020 --> 00:55:05.719 Simo Hellsten: apparently it doesn't have anything. It just lists everything as it's bit 535 00:55:06.480 --> 00:55:08.479 Simo Hellsten: bit crowded here. 536 00:55:08.840 --> 00:55:10.349 Simo Hellsten: But yeah, so 537 00:55:11.060 --> 00:55:14.410 Simo Hellsten: some of the admin themes, at least with 7? 538 00:55:15.970 --> 00:55:20.170 Simo Hellsten: Or is it? Is this actually theme? 7 didn't have 539 00:55:21.670 --> 00:55:23.969 Simo Hellsten: any expand option 540 00:55:24.060 --> 00:55:27.240 Simo Hellsten: in that setting I have here. So yeah. 541 00:55:31.310 --> 00:55:33.300 benji: Seema. Would you like to share your screen 542 00:55:34.770 --> 00:55:36.459 benji: and show us what you're looking at? 543 00:55:58.870 --> 00:56:00.700 Simo Hellsten: So this one 544 00:56:01.590 --> 00:56:03.159 Simo Hellsten: doesn't actually have. 545 00:56:06.180 --> 00:56:07.200 Simo Hellsten: anyway. 546 00:56:07.400 --> 00:56:13.330 Simo Hellsten: any way to kind of hide hide the details. And this is kind of a 547 00:56:14.040 --> 00:56:15.460 Simo Hellsten: really not nice. 548 00:56:17.660 --> 00:56:21.010 benji: Exactly. Yeah, that's the sort of thing we were talking about, and. 549 00:56:21.010 --> 00:56:21.410 Simo Hellsten: Yeah, and. 550 00:56:21.410 --> 00:56:23.000 benji: It can get worse than this. But. 551 00:56:23.160 --> 00:56:23.319 Simo Hellsten: Yeah. 552 00:56:23.320 --> 00:56:23.940 benji: Is. 553 00:56:24.230 --> 00:56:28.090 benji: This is the sort of information overload that the details elements were 554 00:56:28.866 --> 00:56:34.219 benji: introduced, solve and Randy comments. It looks like Christmas with all the red and green. 555 00:56:34.710 --> 00:56:38.380 Simo Hellsten: Yeah. So for instance, here, I think this would be 556 00:56:38.760 --> 00:56:41.480 Simo Hellsten: kind of it's meeting some things for 557 00:56:41.740 --> 00:56:44.510 Simo Hellsten: sample implementation of flex Slider. 558 00:56:45.080 --> 00:56:47.820 Simo Hellsten: And then it's disabled. And yeah. 559 00:56:49.360 --> 00:56:50.105 Simo Hellsten: so 560 00:56:51.280 --> 00:56:58.430 Simo Hellsten: showing, everything is definitely not good, because it's even very confusing for something like this. But yeah, this is 7. 561 00:56:58.900 --> 00:57:00.480 Simo Hellsten: But still. 562 00:57:03.000 --> 00:57:09.220 benji: Yes, I I, in in my opinion it's a definite improvement to have the details element 563 00:57:10.300 --> 00:57:14.730 benji: rather than have it all expanded by by default on 564 00:57:14.790 --> 00:57:16.420 benji: real life sites like that. 565 00:57:22.520 --> 00:57:32.050 benji: And I I guess the issue was filed in 2,012, 2,013, when 888 was still in development 566 00:57:32.220 --> 00:57:34.580 benji: late 2,013. 567 00:57:42.170 --> 00:57:44.710 benji: I will repeat what I've already said 568 00:57:45.180 --> 00:57:49.209 benji: again, anyone want to advocate for 569 00:57:49.240 --> 00:57:52.760 benji: any of the solutions we've been considering? Or or shall we just 570 00:57:53.130 --> 00:57:55.460 benji: trying to choose one? Go to a vote? 571 00:58:01.990 --> 00:58:03.949 benji: Randy, you put an icon. 572 00:58:04.960 --> 00:58:08.060 Randy Oest (he/him): Oh, just that. I don't wanna. I'm fine with closing it. 573 00:58:08.840 --> 00:58:09.490 benji: Okay. 574 00:58:15.130 --> 00:58:23.630 benji: So I guess we've we've been discussing 4 4 options. We we've already I think, rejected the one proposed on the issue. 575 00:58:24.040 --> 00:58:25.730 benji: So I'm not counting that. 576 00:58:26.988 --> 00:58:29.779 benji: So one do nothing 577 00:58:30.410 --> 00:58:31.420 benji: to 578 00:58:32.030 --> 00:58:36.079 benji: replace the disabled checkbox with some other icon. 579 00:58:38.210 --> 00:58:41.959 benji: 3. The changes that Randy mocked up for us 580 00:58:42.900 --> 00:58:44.850 benji: or 4 581 00:58:45.980 --> 00:58:49.940 benji: move some of that information to a new column. 582 00:58:52.890 --> 00:58:56.020 benji: So who votes for? 583 00:58:56.130 --> 00:58:59.130 benji: Do nothing. Close the issue as outdated. 584 00:59:01.160 --> 00:59:05.579 benji: That that's the one that has my vote, and I get a thumbs up from Simo. 585 00:59:06.070 --> 00:59:07.010 benji: And I got 586 00:59:09.060 --> 00:59:10.455 benji: oh, we're unanimous. 587 00:59:11.590 --> 00:59:12.640 benji: Okay. 588 00:59:14.990 --> 00:59:19.920 benji: then then let's let's close out the issue. Anything more to say about it? 589 00:59:25.300 --> 00:59:26.170 benji: I like that. 590 00:59:26.170 --> 00:59:27.740 Randy Oest (he/him): Like it, and let it go. 591 00:59:29.040 --> 00:59:31.909 Simo Hellsten: But for the future I'd be 592 00:59:32.270 --> 00:59:38.259 Simo Hellsten: quite happy to explore the option to add adding a 3rd column or a new column 593 00:59:39.004 --> 00:59:44.520 Simo Hellsten: that could display information and could be used for filtering. But that would be another issue. 594 00:59:45.840 --> 00:59:47.520 benji: Sounds good. Thomas. 595 00:59:48.490 --> 00:59:57.589 Thomas Howell: I would just close and say that if if the problem of people finding this is still an issue, then we should consider either 596 00:59:57.850 --> 01:00:24.209 Thomas Howell: the the additional column or the just some form of filtering from the top. I like the the wordpress approach, but it doesn't really matter how, but I don't think we should open a new issue unless people come to this issue and express themselves, because for me, the number one interesting point is, in all the years it's been open, there's been almost no interest. So I feel like we're trying to solve a problem that isn't there. 597 01:00:25.160 --> 01:00:28.220 Thomas Howell: And so I would just comment. When I closed it. 598 01:00:28.820 --> 01:00:34.619 benji: Okay? So I I guess the only question then, is, who volunteers to 599 01:00:35.524 --> 01:00:42.070 benji: close the issue with the comments. And and also if we want to open a follow up issue about 600 01:00:42.090 --> 01:00:44.260 benji: adding the additional column, the 601 01:00:44.580 --> 01:00:46.210 benji: the hard part is 1st 602 01:00:46.280 --> 01:00:48.910 benji: checking to see if there's already an issue 603 01:00:49.677 --> 01:00:53.230 benji: to do that before opening it. So 604 01:00:53.750 --> 01:00:55.403 benji: any volunteers? 605 01:00:56.350 --> 01:00:57.680 benji: first, st for 606 01:00:58.490 --> 01:01:00.470 benji: commenting on the existing issue. 607 01:01:06.160 --> 01:01:07.849 benji: Okay, I think I can do that. 608 01:01:08.680 --> 01:01:11.539 Randy Oest (he/him): I was. Gonna say, I, I can comment on the original issue. 609 01:01:11.540 --> 01:01:12.640 benji: Okay, thanks. 610 01:01:12.800 --> 01:01:13.440 benji: Just. 611 01:01:13.440 --> 01:01:16.300 Randy Oest (he/him): You know. We discussed it, decided to close it 612 01:01:16.740 --> 01:01:17.550 Randy Oest (he/him): done 613 01:01:18.400 --> 01:01:19.400 Randy Oest (he/him): right. 614 01:01:19.400 --> 01:01:22.409 benji: Okay? And before you comment, I'll 615 01:01:23.580 --> 01:01:25.790 benji: Shortly after the meeting I'll 616 01:01:25.910 --> 01:01:29.859 benji: give you a little bit of boilerplate text to use as 617 01:01:30.280 --> 01:01:33.710 benji: as a framework for your comment. I'll post that in the slack channel. 618 01:01:34.300 --> 01:01:35.450 Randy Oest (he/him): That would be excellent. 619 01:01:36.210 --> 01:01:37.010 benji: Okay. 620 01:01:37.960 --> 01:01:38.600 benji: And 621 01:01:40.160 --> 01:01:41.740 benji: Thomas, do you want to open 622 01:01:41.990 --> 01:01:45.770 benji: a an issue or or search for an existing issue about 623 01:01:46.070 --> 01:01:47.709 benji: adding an additional column. 624 01:01:51.140 --> 01:02:07.189 Thomas Howell: Sure, but I would offer a bifurcated choice like I don't know we need in column, if you can. If someone decides to add the filtering. So yeah, I'm happy to open an issue in that regard. Is there any boilerplate or thing I should use to reference this. 625 01:02:08.230 --> 01:02:09.879 benji: I don't think so. 626 01:02:10.710 --> 01:02:11.340 Thomas Howell: Okay. 627 01:02:11.570 --> 01:02:13.589 benji: And Sima gives us a link. 628 01:02:16.770 --> 01:02:21.490 benji: and I'm still having trouble clicking on links in the zoom chat. 629 01:02:22.030 --> 01:02:27.440 benji: But it's issue 2, 0 3, 5, 0 7, 9. 630 01:02:28.596 --> 01:02:33.619 benji: Figure out what to do with the install. Uninstall modules. Page. 631 01:02:34.640 --> 01:02:36.774 benji: Oh, yes, this is an old issue. 632 01:02:40.010 --> 01:02:43.570 benji: here I can do a quick screen share. I just opened up that issue. 633 01:02:45.763 --> 01:02:48.949 benji: Just have to find the right window to share. 634 01:03:02.200 --> 01:03:03.049 benji: Here we go. 635 01:03:05.950 --> 01:03:11.970 benji: Figure out what to do with the install uninstall modules. Page. As I said, it's issued 2 0 3, 636 01:03:12.220 --> 01:03:14.530 benji: 5, 0 7, 9. So it's 637 01:03:15.297 --> 01:03:19.040 benji: same vintage from 2,013 as one we've been looking at. 638 01:03:21.680 --> 01:03:24.889 benji: and this is sort of a Meta issue. Maybe not. 639 01:03:25.960 --> 01:03:27.029 benji: Meta issue. 640 01:03:27.030 --> 01:03:28.699 Ralf Koller: It became a Meta issue. 641 01:03:28.700 --> 01:03:29.720 benji: Oh, it did good! 642 01:03:30.400 --> 01:03:31.520 benji: Gosh! And. 643 01:03:31.520 --> 01:03:36.380 Ralf Koller: One of the ux meetings and the last ones we ended up creating 3 644 01:03:36.650 --> 01:03:38.909 Ralf Koller: child issues with a link there. 645 01:03:40.020 --> 01:03:41.410 Ralf Koller: or functionality 646 01:03:42.370 --> 01:03:45.949 Ralf Koller: as a 1st step before tackling the page itself. 647 01:03:46.780 --> 01:03:47.930 benji: Great. Thank you. 648 01:03:49.330 --> 01:03:51.018 benji: Oh, so many comments. 649 01:03:52.750 --> 01:03:58.059 benji: So yeah, this is something that we've been thinking about for a long time. Oh, there's 650 01:03:58.200 --> 01:03:59.140 benji: similar 651 01:04:00.180 --> 01:04:00.950 benji: us. 652 01:04:03.570 --> 01:04:04.580 benji: and it's 653 01:04:06.380 --> 01:04:09.746 benji: postpone 3. So this was 654 01:04:11.290 --> 01:04:13.860 benji: Little more than a year ago. The last comment 655 01:04:15.460 --> 01:04:20.629 benji: we decided to mark this issue as postponed on the 3 issues we opened last week, please. 656 01:04:21.030 --> 01:04:22.830 benji: 3 in the previous comment. 657 01:04:30.820 --> 01:04:37.579 benji: so maybe this would be a good place to add a link to the the new suggestion of 658 01:04:39.020 --> 01:04:40.769 benji: creating a column, or or 659 01:04:40.960 --> 01:04:44.149 benji: or for searching for whether there is already an issue 660 01:04:45.240 --> 01:04:46.080 benji: for that. 661 01:04:52.530 --> 01:04:53.750 benji: okay, we have 662 01:04:53.770 --> 01:04:55.919 benji: 5 min left, is there? 663 01:04:56.313 --> 01:05:00.649 benji: I mean that that's not enough time to talk about another issue. Anything 664 01:05:01.200 --> 01:05:04.200 benji: anyone wants to say before closing the meeting. 665 01:05:11.760 --> 01:05:13.760 benji: if not, then let's 666 01:05:14.830 --> 01:05:17.940 benji: host meeting a few minutes early. Thanks all for attending. 667 01:05:18.530 --> 01:05:19.879 benji: and you know 668 01:05:21.110 --> 01:05:32.660 benji: it. It is a hard problem that you know when someone has put some level of effort into opening an issue, adding comments to it. It's awfully hard to say. 669 01:05:33.230 --> 01:05:34.730 benji: no, we we 670 01:05:35.140 --> 01:05:41.100 benji: we have better things to do, and and so often it. It is the right thing to do that. 671 01:05:42.160 --> 01:05:52.290 benji: You know, we we have enough issues on drupal.org. We don't need to keep them all open just because someone has shown some interest in it. 672 01:05:52.690 --> 01:05:56.870 benji: But but of course we we want to do it 673 01:05:57.110 --> 01:05:58.240 benji: considerately, and. 674 01:05:58.240 --> 01:05:58.760 Ralf Koller: Not. 675 01:05:59.600 --> 01:06:02.879 benji: Randomly close out scads and scads of issues. 676 01:06:03.390 --> 01:06:19.460 Thomas Howell: So, Benji. Yes, opening a new like I hadn't intended to suggest we open a new issue. I had just been suggesting that in our comment to close the issue. We said if it was really an issue, these were alternative things that we could do. 677 01:06:20.730 --> 01:06:30.630 Thomas Howell: that would like, I don't want to add to the backlog of something that I still feel like. Even my suggestion is solving a problem that no one may be experiencing. 678 01:06:31.620 --> 01:06:33.379 benji: Okay. So you don't want to open a new. 679 01:06:33.380 --> 01:06:37.429 Thomas Howell: Oh, no, I I'm I actually have been preparing to open it. It's more 680 01:06:37.460 --> 01:06:42.820 Thomas Howell: I I take to heart the we need to reduce the backlog of 681 01:06:42.910 --> 01:06:55.500 Thomas Howell: issue noise. I just want to make certain that that's this is the action you guys want me to be taking. I am preparing like, while you were talking I was working towards it, but I just want to make certain it's the right choice, and I'm not just 682 01:06:56.050 --> 01:06:58.949 Thomas Howell: again seeing a problem where none exists. 683 01:07:03.690 --> 01:07:04.859 benji: yeah, if if 684 01:07:05.560 --> 01:07:15.000 benji: I I think it's a reasonable suggestion, and if you think that it would be helpful for you to manage sites to have that filter, then go ahead and open that issue. 685 01:07:16.960 --> 01:07:23.240 Thomas Howell: Okay? And if I don't think that it's that critical for me, then don't open issue. That's the choice. 686 01:07:24.450 --> 01:07:28.970 benji: Right, and and in the chat Ralph says that he gives a plus one to your suggestion. 687 01:07:29.580 --> 01:07:35.320 benji: and there is an issue for consolidating the filters across the Admin Ui. 688 01:07:35.450 --> 01:07:37.420 benji: Can you give us a link to that, Ralph? 689 01:07:37.420 --> 01:07:49.320 Ralf Koller: I have to search it. It's not directly related right now, but just as a heads up, that there is a effort at the moment the different pages, using filters using 3 or 4 different 690 01:07:49.330 --> 01:07:53.960 Ralf Koller: Javascript solutions, and they want to consolidate that 691 01:07:54.350 --> 01:07:55.319 Ralf Koller: that it is 692 01:07:55.830 --> 01:08:00.990 Ralf Koller: s. 1 I'll post it in the thread for today's meeting. Later, when I found it. 693 01:08:01.810 --> 01:08:02.450 benji: Okay. 694 01:08:02.760 --> 01:08:03.740 benji: Great. Thanks. 695 01:08:05.230 --> 01:08:07.210 Thomas Howell: Thank you. Ben wouldn't be a problem. 696 01:08:07.680 --> 01:08:10.009 benji: Okay. Welcome. Anything else. 697 01:08:11.490 --> 01:08:12.070 Thomas Howell: Yeah. 698 01:08:12.750 --> 01:08:13.620 benji: Okay. 699 01:08:13.870 --> 01:08:17.120 benji: Well, hope to see you all next week, and thanks for coming. 700 01:08:18.590 --> 01:08:19.580 Randy Oest (he/him): Bye, everybody! 701 01:08:19.890 --> 01:08:21.160 Ralf Koller: Have a nice weekend.