WEBVTT 78 00:08:43.320 --> 00:08:47.900 benji: Welcome. This is the drupal usability meeting for September 6, th 2024. 79 00:08:48.270 --> 00:08:50.190 benji: I'm Benji Fisher moderating. 80 00:08:50.540 --> 00:08:53.079 benji: and Ralph Kohler is sharing his screen 81 00:08:53.240 --> 00:08:57.929 benji: and also present is Thomas Howell so small meeting this week. 82 00:08:57.970 --> 00:08:59.570 benji: But let's have a look at this issue. 83 00:09:01.490 --> 00:09:12.539 Ralf Koller: Okay? Thanks, Benjamin. We are looking at issue number 3, 4, 5, 9, 2, 4, 6 at a check. All option for check boxes element. 84 00:09:13.550 --> 00:09:18.190 Ralf Koller: basically basically what this issue does. One second, I also 85 00:09:19.320 --> 00:09:21.659 Ralf Koller: and share my screen my 86 00:09:25.600 --> 00:09:26.910 Ralf Koller: installation. 87 00:09:38.176 --> 00:09:39.070 Ralf Koller: Yeah. Again. 88 00:09:39.160 --> 00:09:40.170 Ralf Koller: the same 89 00:09:40.510 --> 00:09:42.250 Ralf Koller: credentials as always. 90 00:09:43.162 --> 00:09:46.237 Ralf Koller: Point is what this issue does. 91 00:09:48.860 --> 00:09:50.239 Ralf Koller: if you have a list 92 00:09:51.000 --> 00:09:51.860 Ralf Koller: field 93 00:09:52.523 --> 00:09:56.459 Ralf Koller: in my case, I've created a list text field type. 94 00:09:57.830 --> 00:10:00.869 Ralf Koller: I went in and created 95 00:10:01.010 --> 00:10:07.210 Ralf Koller: the values for the severities that are outlined in the issue. Summary in here. 96 00:10:08.155 --> 00:10:14.809 Ralf Koller: As you can see here with the verge, emergency, alert, critical error, warning notice, infant debug. 97 00:10:15.731 --> 00:10:19.589 Ralf Koller: One detail. I wanted to highlight, which 98 00:10:20.160 --> 00:10:24.810 Ralf Koller: I've noticed. One detail cause if we go now 99 00:10:25.300 --> 00:10:28.800 Ralf Koller: to manage form display 100 00:10:28.950 --> 00:10:32.330 Ralf Koller: with the patch applied. You now have. 101 00:10:32.660 --> 00:10:34.609 Ralf Koller: At 1st you have to 102 00:10:35.980 --> 00:10:39.379 Ralf Koller: select the check boxes, radio buttons, option 103 00:10:41.610 --> 00:10:44.580 Ralf Koller: and then you have the option to show. Check 104 00:10:44.600 --> 00:10:46.720 Ralf Koller: all non bottom. 105 00:10:46.970 --> 00:10:55.429 Ralf Koller: But that brings me one to one detail I've just realized while setting it up, which is out of the scope for this issue. But 106 00:10:55.540 --> 00:10:58.270 Ralf Koller: from my perspective, it's definitely valid. 107 00:10:58.761 --> 00:11:00.919 Ralf Koller: For a follow-up issue, because 108 00:11:01.410 --> 00:11:04.725 Ralf Koller: at the moment check boxes and radio buttons. 109 00:11:05.500 --> 00:11:09.180 Ralf Koller: if both you have check boxes and radio buttons, and therefore 110 00:11:09.330 --> 00:11:12.629 Ralf Koller: I was struggling, figuring out 111 00:11:13.450 --> 00:11:17.000 Ralf Koller: how I am able to, because per default 112 00:11:17.590 --> 00:11:19.510 Ralf Koller: I've set it to 113 00:11:20.170 --> 00:11:23.589 Ralf Koller: have default on the field settings. You have limited it. 114 00:11:23.760 --> 00:11:25.439 Ralf Koller: And that way, 115 00:11:26.840 --> 00:11:29.110 Ralf Koller: you get to to radio buttons. 116 00:11:29.240 --> 00:11:36.139 Ralf Koller: And I was struggling how I'm able to switch over to check boxes. But yeah, you have simply 117 00:11:36.230 --> 00:11:38.890 Ralf Koller: to change the allowed number of values 118 00:11:41.060 --> 00:11:44.579 Ralf Koller: to basically. Or I could just demonstrate it, limit it 119 00:11:45.020 --> 00:11:47.599 Ralf Koller: to one. If we go now to. 120 00:11:53.460 --> 00:11:55.260 Ralf Koller: Yeah, you have radio buttons. 121 00:11:55.350 --> 00:11:56.630 Ralf Koller: and 122 00:11:58.390 --> 00:11:59.260 Ralf Koller: if 123 00:12:03.190 --> 00:12:05.590 Ralf Koller: you change back to unlimited 124 00:12:10.600 --> 00:12:12.000 Ralf Koller: use checkboxes. 125 00:12:12.700 --> 00:12:16.920 Ralf Koller: and that is in detail that is not very apparent. 126 00:12:17.340 --> 00:12:21.669 Ralf Koller: nor there's any feedback in a description 127 00:12:22.200 --> 00:12:25.729 Ralf Koller: or alike within the ui. So I think 128 00:12:25.940 --> 00:12:27.879 Ralf Koller: that would be worse for a 129 00:12:28.380 --> 00:12:31.260 Ralf Koller: for a follow-up issue. But 130 00:12:31.710 --> 00:12:39.329 Ralf Koller: to the point that issue is providing it is adding, as you can see here, a check, all, none button. If. 131 00:12:39.650 --> 00:12:42.759 Ralf Koller: for example, we have alert and critical checked. 132 00:12:43.650 --> 00:12:47.210 Ralf Koller: and you now check that button. Everything is checked. 133 00:12:47.510 --> 00:12:49.089 Ralf Koller: If you check again. 134 00:12:50.502 --> 00:12:54.930 Ralf Koller: Nothing is selected. If you check again all is selected. 135 00:12:57.430 --> 00:12:59.920 Ralf Koller: no, that's the basic setup. 136 00:13:00.830 --> 00:13:02.770 Ralf Koller: Any questions to this point 137 00:13:04.550 --> 00:13:07.159 Ralf Koller: before I get to the list of problems. 138 00:13:08.270 --> 00:13:09.260 Ralf Koller: the research. 139 00:13:11.750 --> 00:13:14.900 benji: it seems like a pretty reasonable thing to me. 140 00:13:18.580 --> 00:13:23.098 benji: and I guess, being an experienced troopler, I'm familiar with. 141 00:13:24.840 --> 00:13:26.020 benji: Why. 142 00:13:26.120 --> 00:13:30.650 benji: when it shows radio buttons. And and when it shows check boxes. 143 00:13:31.180 --> 00:13:31.785 benji: so 144 00:13:34.500 --> 00:13:37.349 benji: But yeah, let's let's leave that for a follow up. 145 00:13:37.530 --> 00:13:38.740 benji: So. 146 00:13:39.380 --> 00:13:41.390 benji: Thomas, and any questions about 147 00:13:41.733 --> 00:13:43.000 benji: the scope of this issue. 148 00:13:43.920 --> 00:13:47.439 Thomas Howell: Nope, just comments, and I'm waiting for the commenting section. 149 00:13:49.460 --> 00:13:50.610 benji: So go ahead, Ralph. 150 00:13:51.807 --> 00:13:56.569 Ralf Koller: Or Thomas, you could go 1st with your comments, cause mine are a bit extensive. So. 151 00:13:59.290 --> 00:14:02.720 Ralf Koller: and I'm quite opinionated about that issue. Meanwhile. 152 00:14:08.120 --> 00:14:09.470 benji: So, Thomas, do you want to 153 00:14:09.740 --> 00:14:11.280 benji: give her 1st impressions. 154 00:14:14.275 --> 00:14:22.374 Thomas Howell: My my 1st impression is that I I definitely like this, but I'm not fond of where the checkbox is. 155 00:14:23.570 --> 00:14:27.690 Thomas Howell: For whatever reason I would expect that to be an option on the 156 00:14:27.750 --> 00:14:40.262 Thomas Howell: page where I'm creating the list itself, rather than being under the edit page, or at least in both, like I'm not against it, being under the gear for 157 00:14:42.470 --> 00:14:43.830 Thomas Howell: Configuration! 158 00:14:43.970 --> 00:14:51.899 Thomas Howell: I kept on trying to look for it on that page, and so I would have put it where the edit page was. 159 00:14:54.606 --> 00:15:06.369 Thomas Howell: so when you're editing the like for me, not like, that's where it is. I'm okay with that as a an additional place, but I would have put it where, when I was actually editing the 160 00:15:07.750 --> 00:15:08.690 Ralf Koller: Field settings. 161 00:15:10.594 --> 00:15:13.187 Thomas Howell: When you're actually creating the the 162 00:15:14.100 --> 00:15:15.830 Thomas Howell: options the 163 00:15:18.340 --> 00:15:22.550 Ralf Koller: You mean, basically, instead of on the manage form display. 164 00:15:23.270 --> 00:15:26.669 Ralf Koller: Widget, you would do it in here in the field settings. 165 00:15:28.027 --> 00:15:48.660 Thomas Howell: Yeah, okay, yes. So yes, I would have put it on like I. That's just where I was looking for it. Maybe in a perfect world it would be in both places. But I know that's not the best design but that way, like it is a configuration. So I'm fine with it under the configuration wheel, but I wouldn't have looked for it. I would have assumed it's here because I would have put it next to where the allow number of values is 166 00:15:50.439 --> 00:15:56.999 Thomas Howell: because, especially since that chooses. Whether or not this is a radio button or a checklist. 167 00:15:57.050 --> 00:16:12.580 Thomas Howell: I would have put it there, and that way you could link it behaviorally like. If you did select all, then you would have to have it as unlimited, and it would make sense that that configur those 2 configurations were related to one another 168 00:16:14.090 --> 00:16:15.100 Thomas Howell: for me. 169 00:16:16.270 --> 00:16:17.940 benji: Okay. Any other comments. 170 00:16:20.100 --> 00:16:27.420 Thomas Howell: I like it so I mean, I'd love to have something that simple to add to a list. It's very, very excel. 171 00:16:29.330 --> 00:16:32.733 benji: Okay? My, my 1st impressions are 172 00:16:34.150 --> 00:16:37.250 benji: I disagree with Thomas. I think it is 173 00:16:37.666 --> 00:16:42.419 benji: configuration of the form, widget. So I I think it's it's in the right place. 174 00:16:44.570 --> 00:16:46.809 benji: And I get a thumbs up from Ralph. 175 00:16:47.670 --> 00:16:56.630 benji: and the the only thing I would like to change about it is that I'd like to update the label on the button. 176 00:16:57.130 --> 00:16:58.330 benji: So 177 00:16:59.130 --> 00:17:05.640 benji: when when there's at least one unchecked, I would like it to be the button to be labeled, Check all. 178 00:17:06.310 --> 00:17:12.039 benji: and when all the options are selected I would like the label to be something like clear 179 00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:15.910 benji: or check none. 180 00:17:24.060 --> 00:17:27.099 benji: so, Ralph, you've looked at it more. What? What are your thoughts. 181 00:17:27.109 --> 00:17:28.783 Ralf Koller: Yeah. Yep. 182 00:17:30.499 --> 00:17:32.349 Ralf Koller: yeah. I get to 183 00:17:32.499 --> 00:17:39.909 Ralf Koller: your point, Benji. At 1 point. I'll just go through the my notes first.st 184 00:17:41.332 --> 00:17:43.229 Ralf Koller: The button has 185 00:17:43.599 --> 00:17:48.549 Ralf Koller: the same problem. Like all the other grayish buttons, it's a known problem. 186 00:17:48.979 --> 00:17:57.359 Ralf Koller: The button contrast has a too low. The button has a too low color contrast. It has 1.5 to one, and it should have 3 to one. 187 00:17:57.449 --> 00:18:04.629 Ralf Koller: Then more serious problem is the toggle button. I can demonstrate. Basically 188 00:18:12.439 --> 00:18:21.479 Ralf Koller: voice over on textedit ox meeting dot txt window edit, text insertion and end of word update https. Colon Slash, www, are you able to hear the announcements. 189 00:18:21.700 --> 00:18:22.630 benji: Yes, yes. 190 00:18:22.630 --> 00:18:28.879 Ralf Koller: Okay, link, skip to main, content to manage toggle, test, check all slash none. Button severities, severities group. 191 00:18:30.060 --> 00:18:33.740 Ralf Koller: You are currently on the button to click this button press control option space 192 00:18:38.340 --> 00:18:39.420 Ralf Koller: voice over off. 193 00:18:39.440 --> 00:18:40.792 Ralf Koller: as you can see. 194 00:18:41.300 --> 00:19:01.379 Ralf Koller: the double toggle button. It is not a toggle button, but the button state is unknown. There is no aria press plus in addition, as you've mentioned Benji. In addition, the microcopy gives no indication. It states, with all checked non checked, covering both ends of the spectrum. Also, there's no visual indication. If the button is pressed or 195 00:19:01.420 --> 00:19:02.619 Ralf Koller: toggled or not 196 00:19:03.801 --> 00:19:06.660 Ralf Koller: and visually, there's also an 197 00:19:07.270 --> 00:19:10.350 Ralf Koller: intermediate state would be impossible, meaning. 198 00:19:10.600 --> 00:19:14.169 Ralf Koller: if you have 2 check boxes checked 199 00:19:14.590 --> 00:19:17.719 Ralf Koller: to communicate that it's impossible. 200 00:19:20.200 --> 00:19:22.400 Ralf Koller: And also the problem is, it's 201 00:19:22.570 --> 00:19:31.149 Ralf Koller: that toggle, button, mic or the button label has a similar problem, like, for example, the show password, hide password, meaning 202 00:19:31.832 --> 00:19:40.500 Ralf Koller: leonie Watson. Is one of the weak chairs, and she is actually blind. And a screen reader user, she said. 203 00:19:41.208 --> 00:19:45.600 Ralf Koller: buttons that change the label on a toggle. 204 00:19:46.100 --> 00:19:53.130 Ralf Koller: It's quite challenging to know if it's, for example, this, that the button says, check all 205 00:19:53.790 --> 00:19:56.139 Ralf Koller: and then switches to check non. 206 00:19:57.600 --> 00:19:59.790 Ralf Koller: meaning what is to 207 00:19:59.980 --> 00:20:06.700 Ralf Koller: be entirely sure what the current state is, and what the future state pressing the button will be based on 208 00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:14.579 Ralf Koller: buttons that change the label is challenging instead. In regards of that kind of switch buttons. It's better to have a single 209 00:20:15.980 --> 00:20:28.830 Ralf Koller: button label, at least for screen reader users that says, check all, and then you get check, all selected or check all non selected. And that way it's entirely clear what the problem is. 210 00:20:28.940 --> 00:20:31.249 Ralf Koller: Another problem I see 211 00:20:31.750 --> 00:20:32.930 Ralf Koller: visually 212 00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:42.099 Ralf Koller: for me, it feels like you have the button, and then you have a list of check boxes. It's visually, even though 213 00:20:42.130 --> 00:20:47.510 Ralf Koller: they in close proximity. It's not entirely clear that those 2 belong together. 214 00:20:49.250 --> 00:20:51.339 Ralf Koller: It feels sort of disconnected. 215 00:20:52.460 --> 00:20:55.769 Ralf Koller: And technically, you would need a tri-state 216 00:20:55.920 --> 00:21:02.409 Ralf Koller: and an interface component that communicates that also to assistive technologies, and 217 00:21:04.380 --> 00:21:10.340 Ralf Koller: that basically, yeah, that that at the moment we are looking at the Tri-state, meaning not all check boxes are checked 218 00:21:10.480 --> 00:21:13.010 Ralf Koller: while a few are, and 219 00:21:13.450 --> 00:21:18.669 Ralf Koller: I've taken. And on the issue there was also the discussion or the the question. 220 00:21:19.960 --> 00:21:23.839 Ralf Koller: what the better choice would be if it be a button 221 00:21:23.900 --> 00:21:26.216 Ralf Koller: or a checkbox for that? 222 00:21:27.340 --> 00:21:28.110 Ralf Koller: oops 223 00:21:28.580 --> 00:21:29.870 Ralf Koller: for the switch 224 00:21:30.290 --> 00:21:33.200 Ralf Koller: and the check all option, and 225 00:21:34.330 --> 00:21:39.149 Ralf Koller: Seymour brought up a good point on the issue yesterday. 226 00:21:39.538 --> 00:21:54.580 Ralf Koller: On the subject of check boxes was this button an old issue has 9 year old. Comment number 60 is still valid. The functionality is already in core. It's just about applying this consistently across the Ui meaning. If you go to 227 00:21:54.810 --> 00:21:55.800 Ralf Koller: content? 228 00:21:57.350 --> 00:21:58.800 Ralf Koller: you already have 229 00:21:59.130 --> 00:22:01.100 Ralf Koller: the option to check all 230 00:22:04.500 --> 00:22:10.450 Ralf Koller: from my perspective. It does not directly apply, because the 231 00:22:10.870 --> 00:22:15.359 Ralf Koller: due to the fact that the checkbox here is within the table header. 232 00:22:15.520 --> 00:22:22.274 Ralf Koller: It's distinct from the rest of the check boxes, and therefore it's communicated in sort of a way 233 00:22:22.780 --> 00:22:24.439 Ralf Koller: visually, that is. 234 00:22:24.500 --> 00:22:27.069 Ralf Koller: had a different role than the ones beneath. 235 00:22:27.510 --> 00:22:28.750 Ralf Koller: And 236 00:22:28.900 --> 00:22:32.610 Ralf Koller: I went ahead and also looked for 237 00:22:33.290 --> 00:22:37.840 Ralf Koller: actual resources. About 238 00:22:38.900 --> 00:22:42.099 Ralf Koller: examples in context of ux, 239 00:22:43.090 --> 00:22:46.079 Ralf Koller: for that silly and check all problem 240 00:22:48.210 --> 00:22:52.489 Ralf Koller: for check boxes as as well as for buttons. Problem is for buttons 241 00:22:52.620 --> 00:22:54.690 Ralf Koller: for the check. All button pattern. 242 00:22:55.040 --> 00:22:59.890 Ralf Koller: To be honest, I haven't really found one single example. 243 00:22:59.930 --> 00:23:06.019 Ralf Koller: while for the check boxes I found several I post in the in the chat. 244 00:23:06.070 --> 00:23:07.500 Ralf Koller: Those are 245 00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:14.469 Ralf Koller: either stack exchange, as well as nice Norman group and Css. Tricks and a few other 246 00:23:14.500 --> 00:23:16.520 Ralf Koller: Ux design related 247 00:23:16.800 --> 00:23:21.509 Ralf Koller: best practice patterns, all referring to check boxes. 248 00:23:23.430 --> 00:23:26.880 Ralf Koller: and the old check boxes with child check boxes. 249 00:23:27.310 --> 00:23:28.860 Ralf Koller: It's basically my 250 00:23:29.260 --> 00:23:33.869 Ralf Koller: open one example. Let's pick the Nielsen Norman group. 251 00:23:37.040 --> 00:23:41.070 Ralf Koller: The example is basically a nested checkbox list. 252 00:23:41.760 --> 00:23:44.200 Ralf Koller: which is the go to 253 00:23:44.856 --> 00:23:49.420 Ralf Koller: meaning. You have the check in all, and underneath, indented. 254 00:23:50.278 --> 00:23:53.140 Ralf Koller: The list of available options in here 255 00:23:53.230 --> 00:23:54.570 Ralf Koller: all are checked. 256 00:23:54.780 --> 00:23:59.160 Ralf Koller: while here none is selected. And here is some selected. 257 00:24:00.350 --> 00:24:04.860 Ralf Koller: There's also a few design systems that apply the same pattern. 258 00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:13.210 Ralf Koller: carbon design system, the material and the Glassian. 259 00:24:13.510 --> 00:24:17.900 Ralf Koller: And in addition to that, there's also. 260 00:24:18.710 --> 00:24:19.590 Ralf Koller: from a 261 00:24:21.510 --> 00:24:23.250 Ralf Koller: accessibility perspective. 262 00:24:23.510 --> 00:24:24.530 Ralf Koller: Again. 263 00:24:25.451 --> 00:24:27.740 Ralf Koller: an article by Audrey and Russelli. 264 00:24:29.620 --> 00:24:32.279 Ralf Koller: Check all expand all controls. 265 00:24:37.810 --> 00:24:39.060 Ralf Koller: as you can see 266 00:24:40.380 --> 00:24:44.069 Ralf Koller: he isn't using the indented indented version. 267 00:24:45.650 --> 00:24:48.530 Ralf Koller: and then Tq. Universities, also 268 00:24:49.100 --> 00:24:51.380 Ralf Koller: advocating for the Tri-state. 269 00:24:55.640 --> 00:24:57.850 Ralf Koller: as you can see here. 270 00:25:02.470 --> 00:25:03.640 Ralf Koller: and 271 00:25:04.030 --> 00:25:06.300 Ralf Koller: the only odd example 272 00:25:07.040 --> 00:25:07.890 Ralf Koller: the 273 00:25:08.080 --> 00:25:10.940 Ralf Koller: W. 3 C. Also uses 274 00:25:11.230 --> 00:25:12.450 Ralf Koller: the indended 275 00:25:12.680 --> 00:25:14.659 Ralf Koller: pattern. But the odd 276 00:25:15.140 --> 00:25:21.820 Ralf Koller: pattern here is basically, if you can take a look at the moment we select tomato and mustard. Now we click 277 00:25:21.980 --> 00:25:28.519 Ralf Koller: all condiments, all are selected. If you click again, none is selected, and if you click another time. 278 00:25:28.820 --> 00:25:30.519 Ralf Koller: tomato and mustard is 279 00:25:30.630 --> 00:25:33.299 Ralf Koller: remembered that feels a bit odd 280 00:25:33.630 --> 00:25:34.679 Ralf Koller: to be honest. 281 00:25:37.340 --> 00:25:39.090 Ralf Koller: But from my perspective 282 00:25:40.210 --> 00:25:41.280 Ralf Koller: for 283 00:25:42.300 --> 00:25:45.539 Ralf Koller: that issue, personally, I would go 284 00:25:46.620 --> 00:25:49.600 Ralf Koller: a be consistent with the content 285 00:25:49.970 --> 00:25:50.850 Ralf Koller: page 286 00:25:51.210 --> 00:25:52.210 Ralf Koller: on here. 287 00:25:52.630 --> 00:25:53.590 Ralf Koller: but 288 00:25:54.920 --> 00:25:58.690 Ralf Koller: indent the exact the options underneath 289 00:25:59.040 --> 00:26:00.470 Ralf Koller: and 290 00:26:02.570 --> 00:26:06.340 Ralf Koller: meaning. Apply the nested checkbox pattern and 291 00:26:07.890 --> 00:26:16.989 Ralf Koller: use basically the tri-state checkbox pattern as well. And, on the other hand, the only addition I would make is. 292 00:26:18.820 --> 00:26:27.249 Ralf Koller: in case a single but one out of 3 in this case is checked. I would make it also an intermediate state up here 293 00:26:27.510 --> 00:26:31.690 Ralf Koller: to communicate it as well, so that way it would be consistent 294 00:26:31.850 --> 00:26:32.840 Ralf Koller: across. 295 00:26:33.442 --> 00:26:34.559 Ralf Koller: Call that way. 296 00:26:35.230 --> 00:26:39.590 benji: Okay, well, let me make a few quick comments, and then Thomas has something to say. 297 00:26:40.143 --> 00:26:44.500 benji: So 1st of all, Simo has joined the meeting. Hi, Simo! 298 00:26:44.640 --> 00:26:47.269 benji: And I think you're already familiar with this issue. 299 00:26:47.954 --> 00:26:54.319 benji: Second one of the 1st things you said. Ralph, was something about the contrast on the button. 300 00:26:54.660 --> 00:26:59.650 benji: and I think that's out of scope for this issue. That's the responsibility of the theme. 301 00:27:01.920 --> 00:27:04.750 benji: and go ahead. Thomas. 302 00:27:06.590 --> 00:27:09.730 Thomas Howell: Oh, I thought you had more to say. Are we done. 303 00:27:10.824 --> 00:27:12.139 benji: That's all I had to say, for now. 304 00:27:12.470 --> 00:27:13.310 benji: Okay, go ahead. 305 00:27:13.716 --> 00:27:18.190 Thomas Howell: I I just wanted to put out there that I I 306 00:27:18.220 --> 00:27:36.780 Thomas Howell: would see as a side issue, adding an option to indent or not indent, but I don't like, because indentation implies to me hierarchy, and it works very well when you're talking about ordering food, and you have several groupings. 307 00:27:36.780 --> 00:27:59.240 Thomas Howell: and you may want to add, and none those separate groups, but automatically indenting all the time without some ability to choose or not choose it to me. I don't like it visually. And so I would hate to force that on people, because if they yeah, I I'm I'm not. 308 00:28:03.680 --> 00:28:06.170 Simo Hellsten: About that indenting, I'm thinking. 309 00:28:07.044 --> 00:28:09.369 Simo Hellsten: Let's make it work in 310 00:28:09.830 --> 00:28:13.680 Simo Hellsten: start, and then let leave the indentation to 311 00:28:14.320 --> 00:28:15.100 Simo Hellsten: that 312 00:28:15.310 --> 00:28:18.320 Simo Hellsten: theme of choice that sounds sensible to me. 313 00:28:21.170 --> 00:28:21.930 Simo Hellsten: but 314 00:28:23.280 --> 00:28:25.849 Simo Hellsten: I think some sort of a 315 00:28:26.040 --> 00:28:30.738 Simo Hellsten: kind of for most most use cases. I think there is 316 00:28:31.734 --> 00:28:35.049 Simo Hellsten: good to have some sort of distinction. 317 00:28:35.540 --> 00:28:39.239 Simo Hellsten: but it could be also a line or something like that. 318 00:28:47.890 --> 00:28:55.109 benji: So I I have a question. The the issue mentions the table select, which I guess is what we've implemented 319 00:28:55.320 --> 00:28:56.990 benji: here on the content page 320 00:28:57.460 --> 00:29:01.100 benji: is, is that an option for any 321 00:29:01.907 --> 00:29:04.239 benji: checkbox list check 322 00:29:04.400 --> 00:29:05.670 benji: box list. 323 00:29:11.230 --> 00:29:12.209 Ralf Koller: How do you mean? 324 00:29:15.070 --> 00:29:16.840 benji: if I have. 325 00:29:18.080 --> 00:29:20.419 benji: like the the field you're looking at. 326 00:29:21.142 --> 00:29:23.960 benji: So it's it's a list of text. Field 327 00:29:26.570 --> 00:29:33.580 benji: is, is the table. Select the thing we're looking at now, one of the options for displaying that 328 00:29:35.630 --> 00:29:36.849 benji: I think not. 329 00:29:37.533 --> 00:29:40.969 Ralf Koller: You mean to to bring the entire table pattern over 330 00:29:42.270 --> 00:29:44.089 Ralf Koller: right? No. 331 00:29:44.210 --> 00:29:47.050 Ralf Koller: that. That is the point I meant. 332 00:29:47.720 --> 00:29:52.939 Ralf Koller: Why, the pattern here isn't directly applicable to the 333 00:29:54.760 --> 00:29:55.779 Ralf Koller: where I am 334 00:29:57.260 --> 00:30:00.710 Ralf Koller: directly applicable to the example. 335 00:30:01.260 --> 00:30:02.870 Ralf Koller: Here, you can't 336 00:30:03.480 --> 00:30:04.770 Ralf Koller: put a table here. 337 00:30:06.940 --> 00:30:14.799 Ralf Koller: and that's that way. That's the reason why I've suggested, and either the indentation or like Thomas said, or Asimo said. 338 00:30:16.290 --> 00:30:19.330 Ralf Koller: yeah, draw a line between the select all 339 00:30:19.870 --> 00:30:22.350 Ralf Koller: and the options, and don't intend 340 00:30:22.600 --> 00:30:24.679 Ralf Koller: those would be options, but 341 00:30:25.900 --> 00:30:29.359 Ralf Koller: I wouldn't press the same pattern across all 342 00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:31.380 Ralf Koller: different contexts. 343 00:30:48.930 --> 00:30:54.099 Simo Hellsten: Also, if we want to look at different places where we have lots of check boxes. 344 00:30:54.390 --> 00:31:03.360 Simo Hellsten: If we look at the patents page. Sorry if we look at the permissions page, then we definitely don't want a select. All. 345 00:31:03.710 --> 00:31:06.919 Simo Hellsten: or most likely we don't want to select all. 346 00:31:08.180 --> 00:31:10.849 benji: Right? That would be problematic. 347 00:31:13.230 --> 00:31:17.770 benji: But that that's a very specific use case with very specific problems. 348 00:31:31.290 --> 00:31:36.163 benji: So we we were looking at the issue. And and I think, was your comment, Simo, that 349 00:31:36.970 --> 00:31:40.960 benji: A very old comment still applied, that the pattern is there in core. 350 00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:43.769 benji: It is the table select pattern, I think 351 00:31:46.940 --> 00:31:48.400 benji: And and maybe 352 00:31:48.940 --> 00:31:51.250 benji: instead of this we should 353 00:31:51.300 --> 00:31:52.530 benji: provide 354 00:31:53.160 --> 00:31:56.590 benji: a 1 column table select as an option 355 00:31:56.650 --> 00:31:58.609 benji: or select lists. 356 00:31:58.980 --> 00:32:02.580 benji: and then we we'd be using the existing pattern. 357 00:32:10.162 --> 00:32:19.200 benji: So that would be a sort of a very different implementation. But it it would be a way to solve this this problem 358 00:32:22.870 --> 00:32:23.800 benji: so. But 359 00:32:24.830 --> 00:32:27.449 benji: so, Ralph, what? What is your recommendation? 360 00:32:31.460 --> 00:32:39.710 Ralf Koller: first, st a question to your suggestion. But why does it have to be necessarily even if it's just a 1 column table? Why 361 00:32:40.720 --> 00:32:45.075 Ralf Koller: would it help? Yeah, it would. It would be consistent that way. But 362 00:32:46.630 --> 00:32:48.969 Ralf Koller: From my perspective, I would simply 363 00:32:49.120 --> 00:32:51.380 Ralf Koller: replace the button with a checkbox. 364 00:32:51.600 --> 00:32:53.909 Ralf Koller: and either indented 365 00:32:54.590 --> 00:32:55.700 Ralf Koller: or 366 00:32:56.060 --> 00:33:04.590 Ralf Koller: add a separation. A separating line in between that yeah. Select all checkbox and a list of available options. 367 00:33:05.110 --> 00:33:07.850 Ralf Koller: and also at the Tri-state. 368 00:33:08.380 --> 00:33:09.519 Ralf Koller: That would be 369 00:33:09.800 --> 00:33:11.030 Ralf Koller: my suggestion. 370 00:33:16.600 --> 00:33:18.080 benji: Okay? So. 371 00:33:18.780 --> 00:33:28.139 benji: adding, the Tri-state would be, you know, similar to my initial suggestion that I I just said that the button text should change depending on what it does. 372 00:33:29.110 --> 00:33:34.869 benji: and a tri-state button would be probably a better solution than that. 373 00:33:39.650 --> 00:33:41.720 benji: do we have that tri-state 374 00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:44.029 benji: button anywhere else in drupal. 375 00:33:46.930 --> 00:33:52.029 Ralf Koller: Don't think so, and that's also the point. I. If the Tri-state gets introduced, I would 376 00:33:53.330 --> 00:33:56.519 Ralf Koller: make that button here as well a tri state, if 377 00:33:56.710 --> 00:33:58.230 Ralf Koller: at the moment it's 378 00:34:00.343 --> 00:34:01.690 Ralf Koller: unchecked, but 379 00:34:01.790 --> 00:34:02.880 Ralf Koller: at the 380 00:34:03.890 --> 00:34:05.170 Ralf Koller: intermediate 381 00:34:05.280 --> 00:34:06.140 Ralf Koller: state 382 00:34:06.530 --> 00:34:08.589 Ralf Koller: for that table header as well. 383 00:34:08.980 --> 00:34:09.719 Ralf Koller: Right. 384 00:34:14.780 --> 00:34:23.000 Ralf Koller: But that way is, it's the only way that it's it's in particular for assistive technologies and screen reader users, it's the only way that is clear 385 00:34:25.780 --> 00:34:26.840 Ralf Koller: and communicating. 386 00:34:26.840 --> 00:34:30.350 benji: Were to follow my suggestion and 387 00:34:30.880 --> 00:34:33.889 benji: provide a 1 column table, select 388 00:34:34.190 --> 00:34:36.409 benji: as an option for 389 00:34:36.850 --> 00:34:40.440 benji: as as a form option for any any list of text field. 390 00:34:40.670 --> 00:34:44.870 benji: If we were to follow that suggestion, then we could have a follow-up issue 391 00:34:44.880 --> 00:34:45.949 benji: to 392 00:34:47.239 --> 00:34:49.280 benji: improve the table, select 393 00:34:49.960 --> 00:34:54.639 benji: by adding a trice tristate to the select all button. 394 00:34:54.670 --> 00:34:58.869 benji: and then that would affect the content page. And it would also affect 395 00:34:58.980 --> 00:35:00.130 benji: any 396 00:35:00.430 --> 00:35:02.710 benji: anyone using the new option 397 00:35:03.110 --> 00:35:05.240 benji: on their list of text fields. 398 00:35:17.156 --> 00:35:23.050 benji: I guess alternatively, we could introduce the Tri-state button here and then have a follow up 399 00:35:23.210 --> 00:35:25.890 benji: issue to add it to the table. Select. 400 00:35:28.830 --> 00:35:30.760 benji: presumably there's 401 00:35:30.980 --> 00:35:35.338 benji: a a reasonable amount of javascript that you have to add to enable the 402 00:35:35.810 --> 00:35:37.199 benji: the tri-state option. 403 00:35:38.490 --> 00:35:39.310 benji: Go ahead, Ralph. 404 00:35:39.890 --> 00:35:41.589 Ralf Koller: Just one question. 405 00:35:42.260 --> 00:35:45.480 Ralf Koller: Let's say we would implement the 406 00:35:45.720 --> 00:35:49.150 Ralf Koller: single column approach. But isn't it 407 00:35:49.630 --> 00:35:53.960 Ralf Koller: in the oral interface potentially confusing? If you have 408 00:35:54.570 --> 00:35:56.050 Ralf Koller: just a single. 409 00:35:56.700 --> 00:35:59.880 Ralf Koller: Oh, yeah, technically, it's not much of a difference to that 410 00:36:00.260 --> 00:36:01.660 Ralf Koller: or here. But still. 411 00:36:04.110 --> 00:36:06.419 Ralf Koller: I'm not sure if it wouldn't be 412 00:36:08.460 --> 00:36:10.099 Ralf Koller: confusing, I'm not sure. 413 00:36:23.340 --> 00:36:26.429 Ralf Koller: And and how would you visually 414 00:36:29.410 --> 00:36:31.319 Ralf Koller: present that single column 415 00:36:31.750 --> 00:36:37.440 Ralf Koller: was? If it's a table, it would have to be styled as the table as well. Isn't it. 416 00:36:38.730 --> 00:36:39.970 benji: Yeah, and 417 00:36:40.940 --> 00:36:48.639 benji: it would not actually be a 1 column table would be 2 columns, one column for the checkbox and and one for the label. 418 00:37:16.720 --> 00:37:17.760 Ralf Koller: I'm not sure. 419 00:37:51.140 --> 00:37:54.520 benji: So. So your recommendation is to 420 00:37:54.790 --> 00:37:56.490 benji: replace the button 421 00:37:57.120 --> 00:37:58.689 benji: with a 422 00:38:00.380 --> 00:38:02.359 benji: a tri-state checkbox 423 00:38:02.470 --> 00:38:04.719 benji: with the label, select all 424 00:38:06.420 --> 00:38:07.170 benji: yeah. 425 00:38:08.380 --> 00:38:09.120 Ralf Koller: And 426 00:38:09.330 --> 00:38:14.259 Ralf Koller: yeah, in addition to that, communicate in some way, either with indentation or 427 00:38:14.510 --> 00:38:17.209 Ralf Koller: like Simou, said, the separating line. 428 00:38:19.670 --> 00:38:21.490 Ralf Koller: let us select all 429 00:38:21.720 --> 00:38:23.890 Ralf Koller: refers to basically the options underneath. 430 00:38:30.240 --> 00:38:31.190 benji: Surf. 431 00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:38.199 benji: I'm looking at a user interface that's familiar to many, many people on Gmail 432 00:38:41.410 --> 00:38:49.710 benji: which basically has a tri-state checkbox with no label, although it does have additional options with a drop button. 433 00:38:50.654 --> 00:38:55.430 benji: That you can select all non red, unread, start, or unstarred. 434 00:38:56.680 --> 00:38:59.400 benji: and it does have the behavior that 435 00:39:01.250 --> 00:39:03.229 benji: when some are selected 436 00:39:05.050 --> 00:39:07.410 benji: clicking once selects all and then 437 00:39:09.020 --> 00:39:11.520 benji: clicking again, selects none. 438 00:39:13.180 --> 00:39:17.729 benji: No, I take it back. Clicking once clears and clicking a second time, selects all. 439 00:39:21.280 --> 00:39:22.759 Ralf Koller: Oh, the other way around. 440 00:39:24.120 --> 00:39:24.740 benji: Yeah. 441 00:39:43.370 --> 00:39:44.250 Ralf Koller: Oh, indeed! 442 00:39:55.880 --> 00:39:57.740 Ralf Koller: That also feels odd! 443 00:39:59.030 --> 00:39:59.810 benji: Sorry, what. 444 00:39:59.810 --> 00:40:02.010 Ralf Koller: That also feels odd that it's 445 00:40:02.860 --> 00:40:05.159 Ralf Koller: deselects everything in the 1st step. 446 00:40:12.030 --> 00:40:13.379 benji: yeah, I can't 447 00:40:13.450 --> 00:40:18.760 benji: see it as as a big difference from usability, because, you know. 448 00:40:19.490 --> 00:40:28.460 benji: once either all are selected or none are selected it becomes a simple toggle, so seems to me that it would work equally well either way. 449 00:40:30.570 --> 00:40:32.130 benji: I certainly 450 00:40:32.840 --> 00:40:38.469 benji: don't. Don't want to suggest that that I know more about usability than the designers of Gmail. 451 00:40:39.410 --> 00:40:42.059 benji: They've obviously put a lot of thought into it. 452 00:40:44.610 --> 00:40:45.280 benji: but. 453 00:40:45.550 --> 00:40:51.399 Ralf Koller: Nevertheless, if you take a look at that drop button, you have the options all non red. 454 00:40:51.530 --> 00:40:53.820 Ralf Koller: unread, start, and unstarred, and 455 00:40:55.140 --> 00:40:57.749 Ralf Koller: I would assume that the 1st 456 00:40:58.290 --> 00:41:01.269 Ralf Koller: option on top is the default one. 457 00:41:02.590 --> 00:41:06.540 Ralf Koller: but instead, the second one is the 458 00:41:06.850 --> 00:41:08.280 Ralf Koller: he failed, and 459 00:41:08.520 --> 00:41:09.999 Ralf Koller: the option of choice. 460 00:41:10.520 --> 00:41:11.230 benji: Good point. 461 00:41:15.600 --> 00:41:19.598 benji: But we're not suggesting anything that complicated. 462 00:41:21.160 --> 00:41:23.010 benji: certainly not for 463 00:41:24.190 --> 00:41:27.590 benji: what started out as a simple list of check boxes. 464 00:41:34.670 --> 00:41:37.986 benji: alright. So we have a few options. 465 00:41:40.670 --> 00:41:41.810 benji: one. 466 00:41:42.490 --> 00:41:52.020 benji: Keep the button and maybe make these implement suggestion I had at the start, which is to change the label on the button 467 00:41:52.770 --> 00:41:55.400 benji: to indicate what it will do. 468 00:41:57.560 --> 00:42:00.820 benji: second is to replace that button 469 00:42:01.130 --> 00:42:02.010 benji: with 470 00:42:02.640 --> 00:42:04.870 benji: a checkbox. 471 00:42:07.820 --> 00:42:11.980 benji: 3rd is to replace that button with a tri-state checkbox. 472 00:42:12.910 --> 00:42:15.690 benji: 4th suggestion is. 473 00:42:16.730 --> 00:42:22.450 benji: instead of enhancing the checkbox list. Provide the table. Select 474 00:42:23.110 --> 00:42:24.490 benji: as an option 475 00:42:25.670 --> 00:42:27.990 benji: any other options we should consider 476 00:42:33.850 --> 00:42:36.970 benji: so is anyone in favor. Oh, go ahead, Thomas. 477 00:42:38.433 --> 00:43:03.430 Thomas Howell: My only concern about voting right now on your table option is, for myself, I feel like I have insufficient information on what the consequence of that choice would be so. It's slightly different than the other choices. I think it's intriguing. It's an interesting option, but I'm worried. I can't make a good determination, because I don't know what the effect of doing that might be. 478 00:43:06.750 --> 00:43:09.807 benji: So, Thomas, could you go back to the 479 00:43:10.770 --> 00:43:12.720 benji: form configuration. 480 00:43:23.270 --> 00:43:24.410 Ralf Koller: Here all the. 481 00:43:25.950 --> 00:43:27.609 benji: no manage form display. 482 00:43:29.320 --> 00:43:36.629 benji: So yeah, what what I'm thinking of would be in the in the checkbox, not in the configuration 483 00:43:37.360 --> 00:43:40.101 benji: that we'd add another option. 484 00:43:41.680 --> 00:43:43.200 benji: so can you cancel this. 485 00:43:44.650 --> 00:43:51.329 benji: and then a checkbox where you have either select list or check boxes and buttons, you'd have a 3rd option. 486 00:43:51.370 --> 00:43:53.117 benji: which would be 487 00:43:53.890 --> 00:43:57.949 benji: table select may maybe we would use a different label for it. 488 00:43:59.326 --> 00:44:00.480 benji: And then 489 00:44:01.685 --> 00:44:04.239 benji: if you choose that option, then 490 00:44:04.825 --> 00:44:07.379 benji: then the form widget would be 491 00:44:08.620 --> 00:44:11.750 benji: a lot like what we see on the content page. 492 00:44:13.260 --> 00:44:14.380 benji: Thomas, go ahead. 493 00:44:15.740 --> 00:44:19.646 Thomas Howell: I I like what you're describing. The only 494 00:44:21.190 --> 00:44:22.940 Thomas Howell: tangential question 495 00:44:23.110 --> 00:44:31.319 Thomas Howell: that continues to bother me is, why are checkboxes and radio buttons combined when we have 496 00:44:31.833 --> 00:44:36.820 Thomas Howell: select here where we could actually select checkbox as a radio button separately. 497 00:44:38.410 --> 00:44:41.029 Thomas Howell: So like, if we're adding the table option. 498 00:44:42.380 --> 00:44:57.179 Thomas Howell: it just confuses me why we wouldn't explicitly put this here to choose between things rather than implicitly choosing it by how we configure something that doesn't directly relate to check boxes and radio buttons. 499 00:44:58.870 --> 00:44:59.840 benji: Yeah, I. 500 00:45:00.090 --> 00:45:11.079 benji: So I don't think that's in scope for the current issue. But I think the reason is that it's to prevent you from making an inappropriate choice. So radio buttons are appropriate when 501 00:45:12.420 --> 00:45:15.119 benji: only one thing can be selected. 502 00:45:15.690 --> 00:45:17.019 benji: and if you 503 00:45:17.350 --> 00:45:22.310 benji: can select more than one, then you should not be using radio buttons. 504 00:45:22.480 --> 00:45:25.129 benji: So I think it's 505 00:45:25.800 --> 00:45:27.770 benji: a very reasonable 506 00:45:28.050 --> 00:45:29.360 benji: adaptation. 507 00:45:31.040 --> 00:45:31.660 Ralf Koller: Oh! 508 00:45:32.440 --> 00:45:33.159 Thomas Howell: Right, but it 509 00:45:34.670 --> 00:45:35.469 Thomas Howell: go ahead. 510 00:45:35.680 --> 00:45:36.380 Thomas Howell: Go ahead. 511 00:45:36.840 --> 00:45:38.200 Thomas Howell: you 1st off. 512 00:45:38.900 --> 00:45:43.359 Ralf Koller: I just noticed something that should also be noted is 513 00:45:43.430 --> 00:45:50.469 Ralf Koller: the point, as you can see. I went to the field settings and I switched to Limited. 514 00:45:50.620 --> 00:45:52.977 Ralf Koller: So we get back to the 515 00:45:53.750 --> 00:45:56.990 Ralf Koller: to the radio button pattern and 516 00:45:57.120 --> 00:45:58.140 Ralf Koller: still 517 00:45:59.168 --> 00:46:01.400 Ralf Koller: if we go under 518 00:46:01.570 --> 00:46:03.030 Ralf Koller: severities here 519 00:46:03.510 --> 00:46:08.969 Ralf Koller: the show check all non button option is still there. Shouldn't it be hidden? 520 00:46:09.050 --> 00:46:10.279 Ralf Koller: In that case. 521 00:46:11.490 --> 00:46:17.270 Thomas Howell: That that was one of my concerns like I like when I was getting into that earlier. It's 522 00:46:17.360 --> 00:46:27.220 Thomas Howell: you you're configuring things in 2 different places, and the labels aren't necessarily changing, and to me that ends up being confusing, and I understand 523 00:46:27.290 --> 00:46:48.889 Thomas Howell: how the intention is to block us from making incompatible choices. But I feel like we've got 2 places, both affecting the same thing. And it's not necessarily in sync. And to me there's a cognitive load to have to click between these places to make certain that I'm doing everything right. 524 00:46:51.330 --> 00:46:56.789 benji: Yeah. So so the way the drupal content model works, the manage fields. Tab 525 00:46:56.890 --> 00:46:59.750 benji: describes basically the database structure. 526 00:47:02.360 --> 00:47:03.689 benji: for the field. 527 00:47:04.300 --> 00:47:06.999 benji: and then the manage form display 528 00:47:07.210 --> 00:47:10.570 benji: describes how we how we present that 529 00:47:10.950 --> 00:47:12.609 benji: to admin users 530 00:47:16.250 --> 00:47:18.349 benji: and and we, we could use 531 00:47:18.360 --> 00:47:24.080 benji: a select list in one context and check boxes in another. 532 00:47:25.180 --> 00:47:26.270 benji: So 533 00:47:26.670 --> 00:47:30.059 benji: I think that's just the way drupal works. 534 00:47:31.862 --> 00:47:33.830 benji: I agree that it's 535 00:47:35.260 --> 00:47:38.519 benji: it. We should not be presented this option 536 00:47:38.940 --> 00:47:44.060 benji: for fields that only allow one l. 1 selection. 537 00:47:49.910 --> 00:47:51.730 benji: But I think we should. 538 00:47:51.910 --> 00:47:55.210 benji: you know. Go, go back to the choices I listed. So 539 00:47:56.280 --> 00:47:59.489 benji: so one is to keep the existing 540 00:47:59.970 --> 00:48:02.299 benji: implementation with a button. 541 00:48:03.750 --> 00:48:07.510 benji: you know, and and and make some some tweaks to it. 542 00:48:09.270 --> 00:48:11.449 benji: second is to 543 00:48:11.870 --> 00:48:14.009 benji: replace that with a checkbox. 544 00:48:14.020 --> 00:48:17.639 benji: 3rd is to replace it with a tri-state checkbox. 545 00:48:19.690 --> 00:48:22.520 benji: and 4th is to 546 00:48:23.070 --> 00:48:26.639 benji: sort of abandon this implementation, and instead 547 00:48:26.770 --> 00:48:29.099 benji: provide the option of a table. Select 548 00:48:32.310 --> 00:48:42.770 benji: now the second and 3rd options. I I would say, you know the the tri-state is is definitely preferable to the simple checkbox. 549 00:48:42.980 --> 00:48:48.690 benji: but we might suggest the checkbox as in any an intermediate stage. 550 00:48:48.950 --> 00:48:50.099 benji: A 1st step. 551 00:48:50.840 --> 00:48:51.730 benji: Thank you, Ralph. 552 00:48:55.550 --> 00:48:58.140 benji: Does anyone think that 553 00:48:58.690 --> 00:49:01.660 benji: the 1st option is what we should recommend? 554 00:49:06.600 --> 00:49:09.939 benji: I don't see anyone voting for that option and 555 00:49:13.010 --> 00:49:19.820 benji: and I think, Ralph, you you still recommend the 3rd option, and and perhaps the second option as an intermediate step. 556 00:49:21.321 --> 00:49:27.799 Ralf Koller: To be honest, I wouldn't go with an intermediate step. 2. I would directly go to 3, if possible. 557 00:49:28.150 --> 00:49:28.780 benji: Okay. 558 00:49:37.140 --> 00:49:38.470 Simo Hellsten: I would go with 559 00:49:39.443 --> 00:49:40.970 Simo Hellsten: intermediate steps. 560 00:49:42.154 --> 00:49:44.249 Simo Hellsten: If we can also 561 00:49:44.654 --> 00:49:48.229 Simo Hellsten: find a common solution so that we could have the tri-sate 562 00:49:48.310 --> 00:49:53.110 Simo Hellsten: check box also in content list. And to get that checkbooks 563 00:49:53.310 --> 00:49:56.420 Simo Hellsten: oh, or to get that select all 564 00:49:56.570 --> 00:49:59.170 Simo Hellsten: direct number to other places as well. 565 00:49:59.730 --> 00:50:01.320 Simo Hellsten: So kind of 566 00:50:04.039 --> 00:50:11.579 Simo Hellsten: depends on how far, how quickly this one moves. But I would like to have in in admin content also. 567 00:50:14.210 --> 00:50:15.550 Simo Hellsten: modestate! 568 00:50:18.070 --> 00:50:27.679 benji: Yeah. And that's what I was thinking it. It's sort of incremental improvements. We we agree on the the end state being the 569 00:50:28.640 --> 00:50:31.139 benji: the Tri-state. Oh, sorry about that. 570 00:50:31.490 --> 00:50:41.519 benji: We. We agree that the the goal is to have a Tri-state button, but we also want the Tri-state button in other places, and it it might make more sense to 571 00:50:41.810 --> 00:50:45.200 benji: fix this issue with a checkbox 572 00:50:45.570 --> 00:50:47.919 benji: and then have a follow-up issue with that 573 00:50:48.510 --> 00:50:51.459 benji: introduces the new pattern of the Tri-state 574 00:50:51.580 --> 00:50:54.589 benji: introduces new Javascript for the Tri-state. 575 00:50:54.780 --> 00:50:58.320 benji: and applies it to both table select 576 00:50:58.720 --> 00:50:59.870 benji: and this 577 00:51:08.790 --> 00:51:10.749 benji: And does anyone 578 00:51:11.510 --> 00:51:16.970 benji: have any love at all for my suggestion of of providing table select as a different option. 579 00:51:22.110 --> 00:51:24.402 benji: No one likes that one all right 580 00:51:24.760 --> 00:51:29.150 benji: it. It has the virtue that it's reusing 581 00:51:29.350 --> 00:51:30.790 benji: existing 582 00:51:30.930 --> 00:51:32.000 benji: patterns. 583 00:51:32.300 --> 00:51:34.519 benji: but if no one likes it, then no one likes it. 584 00:51:34.980 --> 00:51:35.960 benji: Then 585 00:51:38.753 --> 00:51:40.869 benji: Ralph, do you want to 586 00:51:41.090 --> 00:51:42.600 benji: argue against 587 00:51:42.660 --> 00:51:45.189 benji: the sort of the 2 step 588 00:51:45.760 --> 00:51:50.210 benji: using a simple checkbox as an intermediate stage. 589 00:51:53.650 --> 00:51:55.980 Ralf Koller: not necessarily. I'm 590 00:51:56.010 --> 00:51:58.820 Ralf Koller: on second thought. I'm sort of fine with it. 591 00:51:59.270 --> 00:52:06.540 Ralf Koller: If basically, the follow up issue is created upfront, and that is, that is then 592 00:52:08.074 --> 00:52:12.249 Ralf Koller: synchronized with, for example, introducing it as well here. 593 00:52:12.380 --> 00:52:14.680 Ralf Koller: So it's probably fine and 594 00:52:17.140 --> 00:52:21.400 Ralf Koller: doesn't make much of a difference if 1st we go with 3 595 00:52:21.650 --> 00:52:25.839 Ralf Koller: and then have a follow-up issue for adding the Tri-state 596 00:52:26.090 --> 00:52:30.809 Ralf Koller: to the content page or the other way around. First, st yeah. Get the checkbox 597 00:52:30.990 --> 00:52:31.810 Ralf Koller: in 598 00:52:32.220 --> 00:52:36.680 Ralf Koller: or so. With example 2. And then get the try state 599 00:52:37.070 --> 00:52:38.810 Ralf Koller: for both of for all 600 00:52:38.920 --> 00:52:41.030 Ralf Koller: the applicable cases. So 601 00:52:41.370 --> 00:52:43.279 Ralf Koller: it doesn't make much of a difference. 602 00:52:48.430 --> 00:52:51.238 benji: Okay? And and then for this initial step, 603 00:52:51.970 --> 00:52:54.560 benji: do we want to make a recommendation for the label 604 00:52:55.430 --> 00:52:59.089 benji: of the checkbox? Is it simply select all. 605 00:52:59.800 --> 00:53:02.020 benji: And the label doesn't change. 606 00:53:05.110 --> 00:53:05.810 benji: Yeah. 607 00:53:07.740 --> 00:53:08.819 Ralf Koller: My point of view. 608 00:53:14.520 --> 00:53:16.700 benji: Okay, anything further to say on this issue. 609 00:53:18.273 --> 00:53:18.886 Ralf Koller: One 610 00:53:19.750 --> 00:53:22.040 Ralf Koller: question select. 611 00:53:22.900 --> 00:53:25.080 Ralf Koller: so the label should be select. All 612 00:53:26.490 --> 00:53:28.530 Ralf Koller: the suggestion should be 613 00:53:32.570 --> 00:53:33.920 Ralf Koller: bottom label. 614 00:53:34.780 --> 00:53:36.120 Ralf Koller: 1st 615 00:53:38.030 --> 00:53:39.730 Ralf Koller: variant 2. 616 00:53:43.390 --> 00:53:45.257 Ralf Koller: Follow up for 617 00:53:47.790 --> 00:53:48.850 Ralf Koller: tri-state 618 00:53:51.200 --> 00:53:53.629 Ralf Koller: for this issue as well 619 00:53:53.900 --> 00:53:54.565 Ralf Koller: as 620 00:53:55.240 --> 00:53:56.559 Ralf Koller: admin content. 621 00:53:57.190 --> 00:53:59.590 Ralf Koller: And the question I have is. 622 00:54:00.610 --> 00:54:06.130 Ralf Koller: should we also create, follow up issues for the underlying problem. Meaning 623 00:54:08.390 --> 00:54:09.170 Ralf Koller: that 624 00:54:09.700 --> 00:54:22.419 Ralf Koller: if the number of allowed fields is set to one, that checkbox box shouldn't show at all. So it basically is that the field. Widget here becomes sort of 625 00:54:22.850 --> 00:54:24.380 Ralf Koller: context sensitive. 626 00:54:24.450 --> 00:54:26.109 Ralf Koller: What the field settings are. 627 00:54:30.488 --> 00:54:35.870 benji: Yeah, I would say that should actually be fixed in the current issue, not as a follow up. 628 00:54:36.180 --> 00:54:36.850 Ralf Koller: Okay. 629 00:54:37.840 --> 00:54:39.590 benji: Anyone agree disagree? 630 00:54:41.790 --> 00:54:43.760 benji: I mean that that seems like a bug to me. 631 00:54:47.440 --> 00:54:55.800 benji: So the the pattern in drupal is always you. You define the field, and then you choose the form which it for it, and field definition 632 00:54:56.340 --> 00:54:57.940 benji: gives the cardinality. 633 00:54:58.590 --> 00:55:01.120 benji: If the cardinality is one, then 634 00:55:02.380 --> 00:55:04.140 benji: don't provide this option. 635 00:55:06.960 --> 00:55:07.630 benji: But. 636 00:55:07.630 --> 00:55:14.839 Ralf Koller: Would it make sense, then that okay, that should go in this issue? But would it then make sense basically 637 00:55:15.450 --> 00:55:17.510 Ralf Koller: to adjust the 638 00:55:18.390 --> 00:55:25.079 Ralf Koller: name of the option meaning. If the cardinality is one, then it is 639 00:55:25.120 --> 00:55:28.459 Ralf Koller: radio buttons as the option. If the cardinality is 640 00:55:28.650 --> 00:55:31.060 Ralf Koller: bigger than one, then it's check boxes. 641 00:55:36.720 --> 00:55:42.610 benji: seems out of scope. I'm I'm familiar with how it works, so I don't really have a strong feeling, but like. 642 00:55:42.610 --> 00:55:48.790 Ralf Koller: Not in this issue. It's totally as a follow-up issue, completely out of the scope. For this I just meant. 643 00:55:49.360 --> 00:55:52.969 Ralf Koller: if a recommendation should be made for a follow-up issue 644 00:55:53.880 --> 00:55:55.639 Ralf Koller: to make it context sensitive. 645 00:55:59.040 --> 00:55:59.830 benji: So 646 00:56:03.980 --> 00:56:10.509 benji: so either show check boxes or show radio buttons. Don't show check boxes, slash radio buttons. Yes. 647 00:56:11.916 --> 00:56:14.630 benji: I don't feel strongly if you want to open an issue. 648 00:56:15.650 --> 00:56:16.450 benji: go ahead. 649 00:56:16.910 --> 00:56:18.000 benji: Okay, Thomas. 650 00:56:19.433 --> 00:56:28.319 Thomas Howell: I would probably not like to see that, simply because for new users, if it only showed one. 651 00:56:28.370 --> 00:56:36.389 Thomas Howell: unless initially, it showed both. And then it changed. So I don't know what the exact behavior that this follow-up issue would describe. 652 00:56:36.460 --> 00:56:38.590 Thomas Howell: But if, for instance. 653 00:56:39.720 --> 00:56:52.979 Thomas Howell: you created a field as today's administrator, and you made it so that it used checkboxes if I came in later to as an administrator one month from now, and you were gone. 654 00:56:53.040 --> 00:56:58.579 Thomas Howell: If I didn't know how this worked, I wouldn't know that I could get to the other state 655 00:56:58.950 --> 00:57:13.450 Thomas Howell: by editing on that other form like. So the dropdown would only present me one option, and then I'd spend a lot of time researching it. So I worry for newer users. It's a confusing pattern to change this. 656 00:57:14.258 --> 00:57:15.900 Thomas Howell: So that's my only caution. 657 00:57:21.400 --> 00:57:23.430 benji: You got a thumbs up from Ralph? 658 00:57:25.110 --> 00:57:30.699 benji: Okay, Ralph and Sima, you've both already commented on the issue. Would one of you like to 659 00:57:31.100 --> 00:57:34.340 benji: person. I had a comment with the group's findings. 660 00:57:38.730 --> 00:57:39.799 Ralf Koller: Yeah, I could. 661 00:57:41.560 --> 00:57:42.720 benji: Okay, thank you. 662 00:57:46.714 --> 00:57:49.679 benji: We have almost 10 min left. 663 00:57:52.790 --> 00:57:56.139 benji: Do you think we have time to look at another shoe? 664 00:58:09.310 --> 00:58:13.395 benji: Well, let let's at least have a quick look at the issue. That 665 00:58:13.760 --> 00:58:15.819 benji: Steven Musgrave brought up. 666 00:58:17.260 --> 00:58:18.529 Ralf Koller: The title formatter. 667 00:58:19.010 --> 00:58:19.790 benji: Yeah. 668 00:58:20.490 --> 00:58:23.910 benji: so I haven't looked at it yet. Has has anyone else. 669 00:58:23.910 --> 00:58:28.130 Ralf Koller: I have one second, I have the edge applied. 670 00:58:28.600 --> 00:58:29.430 benji: Oh, thank you. 671 00:58:37.400 --> 00:58:43.150 benji: So for the sake of recording, this is issue 3, 4, 7, 0 4, 9, 7. 672 00:58:43.670 --> 00:58:45.510 benji: Add a title formatter. 673 00:58:59.420 --> 00:59:03.940 benji: and it's split from another issue. 3 0 3, 674 00:59:04.050 --> 00:59:05.790 benji: 3, 3, 0, 1 675 00:59:06.190 --> 00:59:10.890 benji: formatters and other mechanisms as alternative base fields 676 00:59:10.970 --> 00:59:13.629 benji: directly in entity templates. 677 00:59:15.560 --> 00:59:16.710 Ralf Koller: We have. 678 00:59:26.180 --> 00:59:29.170 Ralf Koller: we have to add, a plain text field 679 00:59:39.600 --> 00:59:41.359 Ralf Koller: only patches applied 680 00:59:41.450 --> 00:59:42.919 Ralf Koller: by the way. 681 00:59:44.820 --> 00:59:46.570 benji: Have to drop for a minute. Gone. 682 00:59:53.890 --> 00:59:55.040 Ralf Koller: Display. 683 00:59:56.640 --> 00:59:57.320 Ralf Koller: Yep. 684 00:59:57.450 --> 01:00:01.030 Ralf Koller: and it's adding the option of a title in here. 685 01:00:03.230 --> 01:00:04.440 Ralf Koller: and 686 01:00:05.470 --> 01:00:09.430 Ralf Koller: you have the option. A checkbox called link to the content 687 01:00:09.650 --> 01:00:12.040 Ralf Koller: and the option to set 688 01:00:13.550 --> 01:00:14.530 Ralf Koller: a tech. 689 01:00:15.110 --> 01:00:17.650 Ralf Koller: h, 1 h, 2 h, 3 h. 4 690 01:00:17.950 --> 01:00:21.049 Ralf Koller: FH, 5, or a diff or a span. 691 01:00:21.390 --> 01:00:24.530 Ralf Koller: Let's say we pick an h 3 692 01:00:26.250 --> 01:00:27.670 Ralf Koller: and we check that 693 01:00:29.110 --> 01:00:30.310 Ralf Koller: we update 694 01:00:30.700 --> 01:00:31.830 Ralf Koller: and safe. 695 01:00:32.590 --> 01:00:35.219 Ralf Koller: Now we get into test. 696 01:00:40.670 --> 01:00:41.600 Ralf Koller: This 697 01:00:42.540 --> 01:00:44.310 Ralf Koller: is a test 698 01:00:45.760 --> 01:00:46.580 Ralf Koller: safe. 699 01:00:47.060 --> 01:00:49.400 Ralf Koller: And if we go now to the front end. 700 01:00:54.860 --> 01:00:56.970 Ralf Koller: We still have the label. 701 01:00:57.150 --> 01:00:58.749 Ralf Koller: And if you go in here. 702 01:01:01.420 --> 01:01:03.020 Ralf Koller: it's an H 3 703 01:01:03.570 --> 01:01:06.989 Ralf Koller: wrapping the link, for this is a test. 704 01:01:09.580 --> 01:01:11.080 Ralf Koller: and it's basically 705 01:01:11.530 --> 01:01:14.669 Ralf Koller: linking to the same node, which is a bit odd. 706 01:01:15.420 --> 01:01:16.569 Ralf Koller: What's the 707 01:01:16.760 --> 01:01:18.049 Ralf Koller: benefit of that? 708 01:01:39.910 --> 01:01:42.930 Ralf Koller: Any questions? Or should I test anything. 709 01:02:01.750 --> 01:02:04.440 benji: So, among other things, this lets you 710 01:02:05.050 --> 01:02:06.090 benji: format 711 01:02:07.190 --> 01:02:07.770 benji: the 712 01:02:08.890 --> 01:02:10.650 benji: the title as as 713 01:02:10.970 --> 01:02:13.719 benji: same as you can choose a formatter for any of the other. 714 01:02:13.940 --> 01:02:14.880 benji: yields. 715 01:02:15.430 --> 01:02:16.740 Ralf Koller: Yep, so. 716 01:02:16.740 --> 01:02:17.889 benji: Image, display. 717 01:02:20.070 --> 01:02:23.590 Ralf Koller: I manage display exactly. If you go in here, you 718 01:02:23.700 --> 01:02:26.309 Ralf Koller: the option for title is added. 719 01:02:27.734 --> 01:02:29.339 Ralf Koller: Let's hide the 720 01:02:30.780 --> 01:02:31.720 Ralf Koller: label. 721 01:02:32.870 --> 01:02:38.560 Ralf Koller: and for title. And you have basically the option. Yeah, link to the content, the checkbox as well as 722 01:02:38.770 --> 01:02:39.580 Ralf Koller: tech. 723 01:02:40.220 --> 01:02:41.310 Ralf Koller: You're able 724 01:02:42.060 --> 01:02:44.759 Ralf Koller: to choose. That is wrapping 725 01:02:45.140 --> 01:02:46.750 Ralf Koller: the plain text field. 726 01:02:47.090 --> 01:02:50.490 Ralf Koller: and you have the option span diff and h. 1 to 5, 727 01:02:53.520 --> 01:02:54.999 Ralf Koller: as you can see here 728 01:02:59.050 --> 01:03:01.279 Ralf Koller: at the moment. It's wrapped in an h 3. 729 01:03:02.870 --> 01:03:05.479 Simo Hellsten: So that would be useful for 730 01:03:05.750 --> 01:03:08.339 Simo Hellsten: some kind of a list of codes. 731 01:03:14.470 --> 01:03:19.510 Simo Hellsten: But as but then again, if it's a list of cards, each card would be 732 01:03:20.400 --> 01:03:22.950 Simo Hellsten: probably a separate article that would have 733 01:03:23.700 --> 01:03:24.890 Simo Hellsten: h. 1 734 01:03:28.210 --> 01:03:29.220 Simo Hellsten: have a little 735 01:03:29.700 --> 01:03:30.740 Simo Hellsten: Pedro 736 01:03:31.600 --> 01:03:32.560 Simo Hellsten: bidding. 737 01:03:34.380 --> 01:03:39.339 benji: So if if you have a list of cards, doesn't it usually make the title an h. 2. 738 01:03:40.350 --> 01:03:43.690 benji: I think it only uses an h 1 739 01:03:45.220 --> 01:03:46.060 benji: on. 740 01:03:47.530 --> 01:03:49.689 benji: on the on the main node page. 741 01:03:50.500 --> 01:03:54.180 Simo Hellsten: If they are rendered like rendered as articles, they can have 742 01:03:54.290 --> 01:03:55.340 Simo Hellsten: their own 743 01:03:56.210 --> 01:03:59.719 Simo Hellsten: h ones. So it's if it's a different context. 744 01:03:59.820 --> 01:04:02.390 Simo Hellsten: So you can have h 1 in a 745 01:04:02.490 --> 01:04:08.259 Simo Hellsten: in like several h ones, if they are in the different context. 746 01:04:09.330 --> 01:04:13.390 Simo Hellsten: So if the it's a different section, then it can be. 747 01:04:15.400 --> 01:04:16.080 Simo Hellsten: And 748 01:04:16.750 --> 01:04:21.109 Simo Hellsten: but there, but without the link link. Yeah, I can see that 749 01:04:21.230 --> 01:04:24.200 Simo Hellsten: you, if you would, would want to build 750 01:04:24.220 --> 01:04:25.750 Simo Hellsten: some content from 751 01:04:26.290 --> 01:04:27.450 Simo Hellsten: Pcs. 752 01:04:27.600 --> 01:04:28.790 Simo Hellsten: Let's say. 753 01:04:29.520 --> 01:04:31.150 Simo Hellsten: yeah, since we always 754 01:04:31.350 --> 01:04:37.739 Simo Hellsten: use Umami, you could have a recipe with ingredients, and each ingredient could be its own content. 755 01:04:37.780 --> 01:04:40.489 Simo Hellsten: And then it would kind of in that kind of 756 01:04:40.930 --> 01:04:41.979 Simo Hellsten: what I'm not. 757 01:04:42.600 --> 01:04:45.109 Simo Hellsten: If if it would render 758 01:04:45.450 --> 01:04:46.470 Simo Hellsten: each 759 01:04:47.390 --> 01:04:48.790 Simo Hellsten: ingredient 760 01:04:49.400 --> 01:04:51.570 Simo Hellsten: from a node into another 761 01:04:52.610 --> 01:04:55.459 Simo Hellsten: page, then it would make sense to have different 762 01:04:55.480 --> 01:04:59.690 Simo Hellsten: hitting level. So so, yeah, so that's kind of, I think it's a. 763 01:05:00.610 --> 01:05:04.460 Simo Hellsten: There are use cases for it. It doesn't add 764 01:05:07.040 --> 01:05:08.909 Simo Hellsten: a lot of complexity. 765 01:05:12.340 --> 01:05:17.109 benji: Okay, and and of course, you know, Ralph is only showing us the 766 01:05:17.380 --> 01:05:20.360 benji: manage display for the default 767 01:05:21.200 --> 01:05:27.529 benji: display mode. But you can have as many display modes as you want teaser card, whatever 768 01:05:28.238 --> 01:05:33.120 benji: and you might choose different headings depending on on which display mode you're using. 769 01:05:33.560 --> 01:05:40.000 benji: And then, if you're building a list with views you you can choose which display mode to use. Just have a minute left. 770 01:05:40.390 --> 01:05:44.910 benji: and I just wanted to get a look at this issue. I I didn't 771 01:05:45.220 --> 01:05:50.319 benji: think we'd have time to come up with recommendations. But go ahead, Ralph, you can finish us off. 772 01:05:51.184 --> 01:05:56.380 Ralf Koller: Just one thought in regards of the heading, I'm not sure if it's technically possible, but 773 01:05:56.620 --> 01:05:58.112 Ralf Koller: at the moment 774 01:05:58.670 --> 01:06:04.800 Ralf Koller: you are able to explicitly set the heading level. But why instead, not simply say. 775 01:06:04.870 --> 01:06:07.770 Ralf Koller: spend, diff and heading, and then 776 01:06:08.310 --> 01:06:16.170 Ralf Koller: let basically drupal, or the render array decide which would be the appropriate, because you know, basically 777 01:06:16.596 --> 01:06:23.780 Ralf Koller: the fields that come before you have links, you have severities in that case. But, for example, if you have a body field. Then you also know 778 01:06:23.850 --> 01:06:25.980 Ralf Koller: if there are any headings. And then 779 01:06:27.138 --> 01:06:29.650 Ralf Koller: you said, basically the 780 01:06:30.940 --> 01:06:34.499 Ralf Koller: let basically set it automatically. But I'm not sure 781 01:06:34.710 --> 01:06:43.120 Ralf Koller: if it would be viable or possible, but that way that it it ensures basically that you have no gap, though that you, for example. 782 01:06:43.160 --> 01:06:44.920 Ralf Koller: if the the only 783 01:06:45.010 --> 01:06:52.940 Ralf Koller: adding, in that node is, for example, h. 1, and you set it to H. 3. Then you have a gap between h. 1 and H. 3, and that way. 784 01:06:52.950 --> 01:06:54.170 Ralf Koller: or maybe it's 785 01:06:54.640 --> 01:06:56.969 Ralf Koller: at a warning. Not sure. 786 01:06:58.560 --> 01:07:05.636 benji: Yeah, that that's a big problem in drupal is getting the heading levels right? And I I think that's 787 01:07:06.550 --> 01:07:08.739 benji: out of scope for this issue. And 788 01:07:10.159 --> 01:07:13.451 benji: I I have some ideas how you could fix that. But 789 01:07:14.630 --> 01:07:16.590 benji: we're already a minute over time. 790 01:07:17.270 --> 01:07:23.720 benji: But but that, thanks for presenting this second issue. Any last words? 791 01:07:26.940 --> 01:07:30.110 benji: Okay, I'll be back next week. Hope to see you then. Thanks for coming. 792 01:07:31.050 --> 01:07:32.700 Simo Hellsten: Hello. Speaking. 793 01:07:32.700 --> 01:07:33.699 Ralf Koller: But nice weekend bye, bye. 794 01:07:33.950 --> 01:07:34.650 Ralf Koller: but.