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By Anonymous (not verified) on
dear drupies (or whatever the guys active here should be called ;) )
i´m now trying for several months to figure out how i can implement the features i need for our community site.
but these efforts always end up in a big confusion, cause the question which modules to pick cannot be solved.
the main reason for that is, that the presentation of the modules available is ... to be polite ... very poor.
what would i want to see there and which i can´t find without clicking "find out more":
- a quick overview on a module with feature keywords (instead of only full text)
- rating of modules (to find out easily about the relevance of a module)
- a list/filter of depending modules and/or the modules a certain module depends on
- a list of modules whith same/similar aims/features
- comments to the modules by users (to be easier able to track down own problems)
the current list with categories or just letters does not help me a lot.
actually i think that the very confusing presentation of the modules is one of the biggest obstacles for new users and leads to endless trial-and-error sessions which could be easily avoided!
the big advantage of drupal - the huge amount of modules - turns out to be its biggest problem when nothing is done about this!
greetz
bernd
Comments
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with regards to ratings see: http://drupal.org/node/174601
That's what the issue query is for. One can get to a specific projects issue query using the project page of a module of using the issues link on your drupal.org navigation and navigating to the module using the drop down menus.
This is what sorting by category already works on. Developers try to combine work so that modules do not overlap in feature set.
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Confucius says:
"Those who seek drupal answers should use drupal search!" : )
I agree, the module list coud need some refurbishing...
See also: module voting on drupal.org
Agree 100% - check out extensions.joomla.org
Drupal may have some advantages over joomla, but joomla.org does a much better job of presenting the modules.
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opinion based.
I personally find extensions.joomla.com worse then drupal.
I actually preferred joomlas before the move to extensions.joomla.org
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My posts & comments are usually dripping with sarcasm.
If you ask nicely I'll give you a towel : )
Okay, let's do a comparison
User Ratings?
Joomla - Yes, Drupal - No
Usuer Comments?
Joomla - Yes, Drupal - No
Presented on reasonably fast website?
Joomla - Yes, Drupal - Not usually
Number of Downloads?
Joomla - Yes, Drupal - No (at least I don't think so)
I have also found that Joomla usually gives a better description, links to home page, and links to a demo.
With Drupal, you don't know what your getting until you install it. Same with themes.
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:eyeroll:
User ratings = nada, you shouldn't install based on popularity (this has also been discussed at nausea on the forums here, do a search)
user comments = you shouldn't installed based on what others say, install on need and need alone
number of downloads = nada, just because its been downloaded a million times doesnt mean its worth anything
not all modules benefit from a link to a demo, not all mainatiners have a home page specifcally for a module.
get a test site, test the modules if you find the description of a module lacking, or the documentation lacking feel free to contribute.
if you have a question about a module ask.
if you prefer joomla, use it.
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My posts & comments are usually dripping with sarcasm.
If you ask nicely I'll give you a towel : )
roll your eyes all you want - user input is important
Let's suppose that a module has 10 comments, and everybody has the same complaint, and the module had a terrible rating. Wouldn't that give you a clue?
I don't have time to do extensive testing of every module. It is very helpful to me to have user input. The way Joomla extensions are presented, I have much more information up front. That information is very helpful.
You are obvious so biased towards drupal that everything drupal does is automatically perfect to you. I take a more reasonable approach. I consider drupal a strong project, but I think there is a lot of room for improvement.
Joomla's method of presenting extensions is clearly superior. You can ignore the comments and ratings, if you want. But, if you value such input, at least it's there.
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For now, If that informaton is needed, you can check the issue query of the module you are looking at. And no It wouldn't give me a clue. IMO, and thats all this is, my opinion. You are entitled to yours just like I am entitled to mine ; ) Mine obviously doesn't hold water with you, and yours doesn't with me.
10 users who don't know how to set up a module and rate it badly, or leave negative feedback doesn't tell me a thing but hey, if it does you, thats great.
I also didn't say Drupal was "perferct". Try not to put words on my fingers.
There is certainly room for improvement, however, I just don't view Joomlas way the same way you do. Which you claim is superior because of user input in those types of fashions.
Either way, As I stated, and if you would do the search, It's been discussed, its being worked on and eventually it will come. Though I certainly don't expect it "NOW"!
Thanks for your input and overall, Thanks for all the help you give. Its appreciated.
To quote my reply on a
To quote my reply on a previous similar thread that didn't get much attention:
A feature with follow-ups by users would also be handy (probably a link that directs them to a section on the forum where there are unique threads for each module).
I really want to learn about Drupal and I think it's really good enough for me not to turn to other CMS. But it just looks like the developpers only want a selective group of users for their product...
agreed. but i suspect all
agreed. but i suspect all our posting is unlikely to help much.
http://drupal.org/node/197918
i am also an joomla user, thinking of migrating to drupal, and i agree extensions.joomla is more user-friendly
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Always be nice to people on the way up; because you'll meet the same people on the way down.
Wilson Mizner (1876 - 1933)
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@docwilmont: It's not that it's not likely to help. Your voice is heard.
However if you are expecting everyone to drop what they are doing to take care of the moduels page, in the midst of trying to get Drupal 6 out the door, documentation for Drupal 6 written, modules updated for Drupal 6, It just isn't going to happen.
Again, it called priorities. Which is not to say that the modules area isn't a priority. But there are only so many hands and there is only so much time.
Would love to see you become a contributor and work toward a better Drupal & drupal.org. Being part of the community isn't about taking. It's about giving. Drupal has come a long way and is only set to go further. There is much to be done, yes. Much to be done. Those who are working would certainly LOVE to have you help.
for the record: I've taken a look at your tracker, in the year and 13 weeks you've been part of the community, you've commented or contributed to 4 threads. All but one were complaints.
@hitmann:
There are two sections in the handbook that do something close to this. goto handbooks -> core modules for related core modules information and handbooks -> contributed modules for contributed modules documentation. Adding a Forum to have access to this type of information would seem unnecessary given the ability for anyone to add to pages to the handbooks.
What stops either one of your from becoming a bigger part of the community and contributing something beyond these type of posts and threads ? Just yourselves.
It's too easy to sit back and complain when you find something you may not like, may not understand or may not agree with. Here's a unique idea, use your keystrokes to HELP! Be recognized for being critical AND doing something about it beyond filing complaint threads.
Statements like that just make me laugh. It's known that there are many skillsets using drupal beyond that of developers. You even know this according to your comment here: http://drupal.org/node/203470#comment-668765
Many of those individuals took it upon themselves to help themselves and help others help themselves. The keyword here is, help. That's part of what community is about, helping. Helping yourself & helping each other.
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My posts & comments are usually dripping with sarcasm.
If you ask nicely I'll give you a towel : )
Again, it called priorities.
exactly why all of our postings are unlikely to help. thanks for clarifying that.
in fact i registered 1 year ago to have a look at drupal. wasnt for me then; but for an upcoming project, i realised drupal was in fact superior to joomla for my purposes. so hadnt looked again till 1 week ago when i posted, believe it or not, about my frustrations with the module list. then yesterday the module list froze my computer and i posted that and suggested it should be looked into; then this last post, where i suggested that complaining is unlikely to help (see above).
i dont know any PHP, SQL, HTML, or any programming language. i would be quite happy to support drupal more if i had some expertice, but i dont, yet. for now, i will support by pointing out where i have problems, so someone, if able, can fix them.
thanks anyway, for pointing that out. and in fact i will no longer post re the modules list.
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Always be nice to people on the way up; because you'll meet the same people on the way down.
Wilson Mizner (1876 - 1933)
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you don't have to know programming to contribute to the community. This is a all too common a misconception.
Documentation, help on readme.txt files for module maintainers, help in issue querries for module mainatiners, help on the forums, there is a plethora of things that can be done to benefit the community as a whole that doesn't including writing any code.
Trust that dww and the other developers of the project module, which handles the distribution and categorization of conrtibuted modules is being looked into and worked on.
It's certainly not that no one cares. Not that long ago there wasn't as many modules as there are today. Drupal has doubled in the last year in many areas.
Prioritizing is a necessity of all facets of life.
Either way, good luck in your endeavors.
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My posts & comments are usually dripping with sarcasm.
If you ask nicely I'll give you a towel : )
Having some screenshots to
Having some screenshots to know what we are downloading really wouldn't hurt
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Screnshots of some modules will be difficult. mainly because they don't offer anything more then a check box in the input formats area.
That said though, Module maintainers can now upload screenshots where they couldn't before using the recently added attach image field on their project pages.
Though I'll venture a guess that many of those screenshots will have to be submitted from the community as maintainers are hard to track down in some cases modules are community driven not maintained by any one single maintainer.
If you have free time on your hands now and again, feel free to take some captures and post them to the issue query of the modules they refer to. I or some one else who can maintain the site will certainly add then to the module page and/or the handbooks page where the documentation for contributed modules is in many cases.
There are also a few who are working on cleaning up the handbooks, adding documentation and trying to make it better. All this on the heels of Drupal 6 being released. Note that I said a few people. meaning not many. We'd certainly love the help as it would get the tasks finished much quicker.
Many say, I'm too new to do that. Fact is new users are the best users to help write documentation because they are the target audience. A new user writing in terms another new users will understand is a great way to handle situations like these.
Many also say, they are too busy to help. With this type of reponse there is nothing that can be done and on that note less that gets done on a daily basis.
Walter has stated he doesn't have the time to help, by testing modules for his own use, As such I don't think he'll block out time to help in any other area either. That being said, hitmann if you would like to help, we'd love to have you. If you aren't already, request to be added to the documentation team where by you will have permissions beyond that of an authenticated user which will allow you to help with documentation including adding screeenshots to the contributed modules area and flesh out documentation.
Help make drupal better and it will be better. As it stands now there are far more requests for time consuming tasks then there are humands to do these tasks. The more help the community gives, the faster and better these things can be done.
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My posts & comments are usually dripping with sarcasm.
If you ask nicely I'll give you a towel : )
I think I'll use Joomla for
I think I'll use Joomla for now since I'm new to CMS and Joomla is more user-friendly. I've installed it yesterday and already been playing with the modules, whereas my Drupal learning is still hanging on Clean URLs and taxonomy, 7 weeks after installing it. That's probably because they use a lot of friendly graphics, colours and organisation, which gives you the impression that you are learning by playing around and having fun, rather than actually only learning/studying it.
Once I get used to it and get more familiar with how a CMS works or what it does, I'm gonna get back to Drupal for more serious stuff and go with your suggestion of joining a contributing team.
Joomla is easier?
Even if Joomla is easier to navigate, that does not mean that it is easier to use unfortunately
It took me some months to relaunch a relatively big website using Joomla and I had to fight a lot of fights (only 2 levels: categories + section), no real structure, no standards (think of UTF-8) etc.
I look at this adventure now as lost time as well, I still have the feeling that Drupal might be the tool which I needed that time as well but I took unfortunately Joomla...
your idea "first let's do it with Joomla, then come back to Drupal" is a deviation I fear
In my opinion it would be better to fight for better documentation and support with Drupal, because this has the future-proof structure and standards which Joomla has not and will never, I fear
See http://drupal.hyrme.com/
See http://drupal.hyrme.com/ for a site I am putting together to help address some of these gripes people have. You can login with your drupal.org username and password to post comments. I am looking forward to your constructive thoughts and ideas.
scenarios
For some modules, alternative scenarios about where the module could be used is the best way to explain/understand its purpose.
good developers but lousy documentators
as you wrote, like it is today: you end up in endless try-and-error-sessions
I am talking of my experiences now, being a quite experienced user, administrator and opensource developer (some small projects) as well:
I find it a real obstacle, that nearly 90% of the modules which I had to check out if they do what I need had nearly no or only very poor documentation
- documentation before you download and install
- documentation at hand during install
- readme-files in the top folder and not hidden in the 4th folderlevel at places where you never never would look for them
I wanted to add normal functionality to a naked fresh installation like adding a richtextfeditor and features for video and audio embedding
and what did I get? A mess of modules and not one that really does what it does or has a description which shows what it does
look at SWFTools for example
Why must a new user start to browse forum, module pages, websites, drupal pages in 3 languages already, when attempting to get standard basic functionality?
Why does a new user sometimes gets the answer "It's opensource, contrib yourself!" and starts to write documentation for these lousy developers instead of getting a normal working level?????
I think this is the biggest obstacle of OpenSource (not only Drupal, but also Etomite, Joomla and most others):
some good developers but lousy documentators
Think of all the frustration!
Think of all the spoiled time and money!
And all the broken projects!