Please add Hong Kong Cantonese language to localize.drupal.org (I did check at http://bit.ly/yHndlP that there is no existing issue for this language)
How can I help? Thanks.
What's the correct lanugage code? On http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantonese I found the language families it belongs to, and I found Yue on http://rishida.net/utils/subtags/index.php?find=yue&submit=Find , but on http://www.ethnologue.com/language/yue it looks as if Yue covers a lot of dialects, so we can't use that alone here. My best guess is yue-hk (http://rishida.net/utils/subtags/index.php?check=yue-hk&submit=Check), does that sound right?
What's the correct plural formula? On http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/l10n/pluralforms it looks as if nplurals=1; plural=0 is correct for all variants of Chinese, is that correct for this language?
Do you know of any existing work on translating this language for Drupal? (If anyone else is working on this, we should contact them, so they can join the translation group here when it's created.)
Do you have more people ready to start working on this translation? (We can create the translation group even if you don't have more translators ready, but translating is a lot of work, so it's a good idea to get more people to join in the effort.)
I came upon this by accident, and what a pleasant surprise indeed!
(Putting my Hong Kong Chinese and GNU/Linux user/developer hat on)
Tthe usual language code that we use is "zh-hk". For example, my system locale is zh_HK.UTF-8.
An example on the web is found on http://www.debian.org/ where we have:
Yes, zh-hant and zh-hans that Drupal uses are more correct and generic... oh well... :-)
"zh-hk" also uses traditional Chinese, so on Linux, we often fall back on zh-tw translation when zh-hk is not there yet. The main differences are in the terminology. For example, in Taiwan, people say 網際網路 (Wang-ji-wang-lu) for Internet, whereas Hong Kong people say and write 互聯網 (Wu Luen Mong, Hu-lian-wang) like in China, but in traditional rather than simplified form of 互联网。
You'll also find zh_HK on Launchpad translation server (a.k.a. Rosetta), alongside with zh_TW and zh_CN.
Another possibility is "zh-yue", which is used by the Cantonese version of Wikipedia, though I am not sure whether we want to use that. You see, there is a difference between "Standard Chinese as written in Hong Kong", which "zh-hk" encompasses, and "colloquial Cantonese" that is not usually written but are now used by some entertainment tabloids, which "zh-yue" may better represent. It may be too colloquial though for computer software though. Afterall, after all these years, no one has started anything like "zh-yue" in the Linux world. Neither would you find a zh-yue version of Microsoft Windows or Mac OS X. Only zh-hk variant of zh-hant.
So, I recommend going with "zh-hk". This would serve people in Hong Kong, Macao, and some overseas Chinese.
I foresee that the Drupal "zh-hk" L10n team would be smaller (less people in Hong Kong, haha), but we start by starting with zh-hant, replace certain terminologies with regex, and if necessary, make some more manual adjustment.
OK, we'll use zh-hk.
Is nplurals=1; plural=0; the correct plural formula?
By the way, it sounds the functionality discussed in #608488: Translation inheritance would be useful for this language.
> Is nplurals=1; plural=0; the correct plural formula?
Yes, this is the correct plural formula. Sorry, I forgot to confirm this in my previous message.
Thanks for letting me know about #608488: Translation inheritance. Cool stuff! it would come in handy indeed.
I've created the team at http://localize.drupal.org/languages/zh-hk and made @iamalwayslost the initial owner / admin. You can add any number of other admins and manage group level permissions of people.
Please report issues as you find them! Your team members can now join and help import existing translations and work on more translations. Anybody can sign up for being a member of the team and they will be able to submit suggestions right away. The initial admin can change permissions of people signing up, widening their capabilities. See http://localize.drupal.org/node/616 for explanation on how. It is highly suggested to grant both moderation permissions to those who you also designate admins.
Since it's some time since iamalwayslost posted the request, he/she may not notice that the group is created. You can contact him/her to get permission to approve translation suggestions.
Welcome on board!
Wow thank you guys!
On colloquial Cantonese, ie Hong Kong Cantonese, I think some courts and legal documents are changing over to colloquial Hong Kong Cantonese because it's written form is too different. The written form is just mandarin, an entirely different language. Should we just directly make Hong Kong Cantonese exactly as it is spoken? There is always a first and there is no better place than Drupal!
@zirvap, thank you very much for your quick response and action! Thank you for creating zh-hk for us!
The differences between zh-hant (hence zh-tw) and zh-hk are minor, and actually one of the most active contributors to zh-hant, @KayL, is a Hong Kong Chinese, so the current zh-hant translation is actually quite acceptable to traditional Chinese audiences in Taiwan, Hong Kong, and overseas. Maybe that is why no one has bothered to ask specifically for zh-hk before. That said, it is nice to have though, and some dedicated friends in Hong Kong would contribute to both zh_TW and zh_HK to e.g. GNU, GNOME, KDE, Ubuntu, etc.
However, now that @iamalwayslost is back, and judging from his previous comment, it seems that he has a totally different idea in mind. @zirvap, you were right: @iamalwayslost is actually looking for yue-hk, which currently no other software uses, maybe except Wikipedia:
Personally, I prefer "zh-yue" over "yue" so it is obvious that Cantonese is a major dialect of Chinese, not an entirely distinct language. And, do we want to add "-hk" or not? How Hong Kong-specific do we want to make this new translation to be? And how colloquial? Do we want to follow the way most Hong Kong developers speak, i.e. a good mixture of English and Cantonese? @iamalwayslost, could you please give some concrete example of what you have in mind?
A fictitious example:
Click this button to enable the Views module.
點選這個按鈕以啟用 Views 模組。
A possible version Cantonese:
要啟用 Views 模組，就撳呢粒掣啦！
A possible Cantonese, reflecting the extensive use of English in many Hong Kong people’s daily speech:
要 enable Views 呢個 module，就 click 呢個 button 啦！
What kind of translation do you want? As that will determine the proper language code to use (zh-yue or zh-yue-hk), as well as the size of our audience. Such colloquial translations are surely fun: 「嘩！真係好盞鬼喎！」 But most would find it impractical for daily use, and some had even commented to me that it hurts their eyes to read, when I tried the same thing on Debian website (www.debian.org) years ago.
A new translation does not just happen. With niche audience for zh-yue (and even smaller for zh-yue-hk), it will be even more difficult to find dedicated translators to make it happen. So, @iamalwayslost, these are things to consider. You may need to go out and recruit people to this new zh-yue(-hk), and setup some translator’s guideline or what not, and begin translating yourself. Otherwise, the more likely outcome is this zh-yue(-hk) would remain stale, slowly rotting away...
Anyhow, first thing first, @iamalwayslost, do you want zh-hk (formal written Chinese as used in Hong Kong), or zh-yue (colloquial Cantonese) or zh-yue-hk (extremely colloquial Cantonese in Hong Kong)? So that we could ask @zirvap to fix it if possible. :-)
I'm maintaining the zh-hant a while. I tend to make them available to all Chinese readers. (But TW translations are always the first priority ATM.)
I'd expect formal translations in ZH-HK. ( that can be used in GOV & Company's sites, eg: http://www.gov.hk/tc/residents/ )
ZH-YUE - Cantonese (no GOV sites use it, if you know what i mean... )
Also hoping you guys keep it DRY, don't repeat zh-hant works!! (Only fixes the strings different to zh-hant ^_^).
( #1943782: Translation inheritance for common translations )
Anyway, it's more than 60 million reason to add zh-Yue ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers )
I would prefer the last from a purely linguistic perspective. Hong Kong's language has become very distinct and ideas, when translated, loses a lot of meaning.
That said, to implement might be too big a task for just a few volunteers. A more realistic goal is your
A possible version Cantonese:
要啟用 Views 模組，就撳呢粒掣啦！
Would it make sense to begin alpha version by directly copying zh-tw and begin modifications? My guess this would be more efficient and can be pushed to as close to how Hong Kong Cantones is spoken as time and number of people allows.
This is exciting!
ok just from quickly browsing, I am going to start changing zh-tw to zh-hk. zh-yue-hk is what would Hong Kong people want, I think. (I am only one person tho). And browsing online I had no idea 'zh-yue' is cantonese related, while 'zh-hk' immediately rings are bell.
Hi i have trouble trying to import a first .po file? It says I need to log in? Access denied?
Hello @KayL, thanks for your valuable input.
Hello @iamalwayslost, thanks for getting the ball rolling.
However, before we go any further, I think you need to understand the following thoroughly:
zh-hk does NOT mean "Hong Kong Cantonese", not the colloquial variant anyway.zh-hk means the standard, formal written Chinese as used in Hong Kong. That is the convention used everywhere else.
Real-world examples of zh-hk:
The kind of Cantonese that you want is zh-yue, and that is, from ISO 639, and accepted convention on the Internet.
For example, please compare the following on Wikipedia:
And these links proving that Wikipedia did not choose zh-yue out of nowhere:
Please do continue to work on Cantonese translation as you see fit. However, your work should be called zh-yue.
I think there is enough interests to have both zh-hk and zh-yue in Drupal. :-)
Action items: I think we need to contact @zirzap and ask her to help us fix the current situation. Assuming that it is non-trivial to change the language code "zh-hk" to "zh-yue" on l.d.o.:
It appears that the Translation Import/Export feature on l.d.o is broken at the moment. Everybody sees the same "Access Denied" error, and I think there is already a bug report about it.
Keep the zh-hk that she has created for us, but rename it to Chinese (Hong Kong)
Create a new zh-yue and call it Chinese (Cantonese)
I assume that in addition to these, I should also:
Does this sound right? Any objections?
@iamalwayslost: Please don't import any translations into the group until this issue is cleared up.
@zirzap, thank you for responding so quickly. Your recommendations sound wonderful! Definitely no objection from me. :-)
Sounds good here :) sorry for late reply.
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