Drupal 9 readiness meeting / 9 March 2020 [#3117226]

Meeting will happen in #d9readiness on drupal.slack.com.

Hello and welcome to this Drupal 9 readiness meeting!

This meeting:
➤ Is for core and contributed project developers as well as people who have integrations and services related to core. Site developers who want to stay in the know to keep up-to-date for the easiest Drupal 9 upgrade of their sites are also welcome.
➤ Usually happens every Monday at 19:00 UTC.
➤ Is done over chat.
➤ Happens in threads, which you can follow to be notified of new replies even if you don’t comment in the thread. You may also join the meeting later and participate asynchronously!
➤ Has a public agenda anyone can add to: `https://www.drupal.org/project/drupal/issues/3117226`
➤*Transcript will be exported and posted* to the agenda issue. For anonymous comments, start with a :bust_in_silhouette: emoji. To take a comment or thread off the record, start with a :no_entry_sign: emoji.

0️⃣ Who is here today? Comment in the thread below to introduce yourself.

vuil	Ilcho, Bulgaria (EU), Modules contributor.
hestenet (he/him)	Tim, Portland, OR - DA
shaal	Ofer Shaal, Florida :sunglasses:, Drupal-Rector, Umami
tedbow	Ted, from US, core contributor (edited)
pingwin4eg	:wave: Mike, Ukraine, contrib maintainer and simply Drupal fan.
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	Gábor, Drupal 9 coordinator
mixologic	Ryan, Drupal Association Infra -DrupalCI Maintainer/packages.drupal.org etc.
mikelutz	Mike, Migration maintainer.
xjm	Oops, late start today plus DST so didn't realize how late it was
drumm	Neil, Brooklyn, NY, US, Drupal Association.
heddn	Lucas, maintainer of migrate
dww	Derek, core contributor. Catching up a bit late
catch	Nat from the UK.
webchick	Angie from :canada:
dan2k3k4	:wave: Dan, in Zurich
larowlan	Lee loitering

1️⃣ Do you have suggested topics you are looking to discuss? Post in this thread and we’ll open threads for them as appropriate.

hestenet (he/him)	#3054376: [META] Changes/additions on drupal.org preparing for Drupal 9's release (edited)
hestenet (he/him)	And separately xjm's comment about documentation
vuil	D10 Plan
mixologic	MariaDB + Other Database requirments for testing (Percona?)
mikelutz	Last week we discussed possible implications of camps and conferences being cancelled, and at the time most were going to continue to go on. A week later, they are dropping like flies, PNWCamp, Midcamp delayed or going virtual. Do we want to talk about this again?
xjm	I'd like to do a CTA on the last beta blockers -- one thread for frontend issues, one thread for upgrade path issues, one thread for the rest
xjm	and yeah +1 to another thread about events :disappointed:
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	@hestenet (he/him) I am afraid I need more clarity on the URL you posted, what specifically do you intend to mean? :slightly_smiling_face:
hestenet (he/him)	You got it already :slightly_smiling_face: the database requirement stuff was the main thing.

2️⃣ Status of beta! If all must have beta blockers are done by end of this week, there will be a beta next week!

Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	See #3079680: [META] Requirements for tagging Drupal 9.0.0-beta1 for issues
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	if we are to talk about specific issues, let’s suggest threads for them IMHO :slightly_smiling_face:
xjm	See thread 1 for the breakdown I suggest -- sorry for being late

3️⃣ Status of multilingual migrations

Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	#2746541: Migrate D6 and D7 node revision translations to D8 is now RTBC :slightly_smiling_face: speak up now if you have concerns that would block that landing :smile:
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	@catch and @heddn clarified the stability plan, and now if that lands, #2966856: Hide and disable Drupal Migrate Multilingual could go in :slightly_smiling_face:
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	we need help to reroll this patch though ^^
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	(it does not apply currently)
heddn	No big surprise on the need for a reroll (edited)
heddn	There are outstanding questions about how to hide/disable the multilingual module
heddn	I've posted my thoughts in the issue. @mikelutz any thoughts?
mikelutz	I’ll have to review,

4️⃣ Drupal 9 documentation

Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	@hestenet (he/him) and @xjm raised this
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	Also @pingwin4eg plus1-ed it :slightly_smiling_face:
drumm	I do recommend transitioning the existing D8 section into evergreen D8 & later documentation.
hestenet (he/him)	+1 to that.
hestenet (he/him)	I think that would make the most sense - and we do have some tools already for version specific tags on particular pages.
hestenet (he/him)	It might be nice to have a UX oriented person (maybe even one who worked on that redesign) provide some thoughts, if we can recruit them.
pingwin4eg	From a contrib maintainer perspective, I was curious where the project docs should be created, regarding multi-core compat and later with semver. (edited)
drumm	One guide for all future versions of Drupal would certainly solve that problem.
andypost	D9 could use help topics to bring reach markup demo
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	@pingwin4eg do you mean contrib projects?
pingwin4eg	yes
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	@andypost should have clarified this is about d.o docs
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	@pingwin4eg where do you put them for D8?
pingwin4eg	Currently here - https://www.drupal.org/docs/8/modules, so moving to just docs/modules should be ok.
drumm	In the same currently-specific-D8 section https://www.drupal.org/docs/8/modules
mixologic	Maybe we need a new section like https://www.drupal.org/docs/∞/modules
drumm	Does that need to be different from 8?
xjm	The thing is that we add modules in minors
xjm	So 8.6 doesn't have LB, Media Library, whatever
xjm	We don't go and make a separate 8.7 section to the hanbdook
xjm	A handful of modules are removed each major. I think we could start a best practice of indicating on each page what versions it applies to.
xjm	(For 8+ that is)
drumm	This requires Drupal N!
drumm	Specific sections of pages can be marked up to clearly say what is what as the UI evolves. For removed things, can rename a subsection … (removed in …) or otherwise archive it.
andypost	The same could be adopted for user guide

5️⃣ MariaDB + Other Database requirements for testing

Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	@mixologic raised this
mixologic	Yep. This is both a 'beta blocker' and "entirely fuzzy, unknown requirements" for me.
mixologic	It would also be helpful to know if percona is something we also need to start managing and testing as well.
mixologic	Since I see it mentioned in the mysql min requirements thread, but that didnt translate into an issue of "we need a container"
xjm	So it's not a hard beta blocker. It is something we should try to solve during beta, because we might have a need to separate the MariaDB requirements from the MySQL requirements due to differing release cycles and diverging features.
andypost	I'm using percona docker images in CI for a long time but mostly 5.7 (edited)
xjm	Right now for example we actually want to set our MariaDB requirement higher than the MySQL equivalent. But we need a Maria bot to actually pursue creating a separate driver etc.
mixologic	Okay, well, I guess the first part that Im stuck on is the only requirement I have/know is "mariaDB" -> I.e I dont even know what versions we're talking about here, how they map to mysql versions etc. Hoping to get some clarifications.
hestenet (he/him)	^^ So if someone could say - this version, these extensions - etc - that would provide clarity.
mixologic	Oh, actually I think I just found it
mixologic	#3109534: Raise the minimum MySQL version to 5.7.8 and MariaDB version to 10.2.7 in Drupal 9
xjm	@mixologic So as a followup issue, we're considering increasing the Maria requirement to 10.3 instead of 10.2. But we can't do that right now
andypost	Also it's fair point when php pdo linked to system libraries (like sqlite)
mixologic	@andypost those links are not direct to the db like it is with sqlite.
mixologic	i.e. I dont think that matters
hestenet (he/him)	@xjm Sorry - just to clarify - You can't raise the requirement right now because you need 10.2.7 container first? Or you can't raise the requirement because of some unrelated discussion and we should hold off for the moment?
alexpott	It is not a beta requirement but #2986452: Database reserved keywords need to be quoted as per the ANSI standard is important if we want to support multiple database drivers and multiple versions. It’s now rtbc and I think it is easiest to land before beta.
mixologic	Okay, well I'm not really asking about whether or when it should be done, I'm asking what needs to be done. What versions do we want/need of both Mariadb and percona?
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	@mixologic my understanding is MariaDB 10.2.7, the drupalci issue is at #3113177: Add MariaDB to testbot
mixologic	Okay, what about 10.3? What about percona?
xjm	@mixologic I would say 10.2.7 and 10.3 both would be valuable. Percona so far hasn't had any concerns/needs for an env for that.
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	@mixologic I don’t believe that we’d need Percona, as far as I heard they are feature equivalent and we don’t distinguish them from MySQL at this point
mixologic	Great, thanks. I'll see if I can get those going.
xjm	@hestenet (he/him) Sorry, missed your message earlier, To clarify, we require MariaDB 10.2 atm and can't change that because MySQL and MariaDB share a driver and test environments, so we have to use the 5.7 "equivalent". To increase to 10.3 while leaving MySQL at 5.7, we'd need a separate driver and environment both.
xjm	(And, additionally, because they're now diverging and we have no idea what might be failing already) (edited)
xjm	/cc @mixologic ^
mixologic	@xjm can you help me sort out what maps to what?
mixologic	If I understand correctly 10.2 -> 5.6, and is roughly equivalent?
xjm	If that were the case, we wouldn't have a problem AFAIK
xjm	#3107113: [policy] Decide on MySQL/MariaDB/Percona Server version support status for Drupal 9 is the issue
xjm	In #3109534: Raise the minimum MySQL version to 5.7.8 and MariaDB version to 10.2.7 in Drupal 9 the three versions we set D9's requirement to are equivalent
xjm	Or, at least, if they're not, then we have some urgent followups :wink:
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	I don't think they are equivalent on the whole but the subset of their features used by Drupal are expected to be equivalent for now.

6️⃣ Outstanding beta1 requirements: frontend

Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	@xjm raised this
xjm	We have 3️⃣
xjm	#2821525: Update normalize.css to the most recent version is the TOP PRIORITY because it blocks multiple other things
xjm	Review, testing, feedback, help with meta tasks like updating change records -- all welcome
xjm	The second is soft-blocked by the first but is absolutely essential: #3050374: Create Drupal 9 stable theme
xjm	If you know anything at all about themes, please review the above issue!
xjm	Finally #2550717: [JS] Replace jQuery.cookie with JS-cookie and provide a BC layer needs review from a JS dev. I've asked @tedbow to look at it later today but he also has many many other things on his plate. So if you think you could provide a review of a JS dependency update TODAY please assign to yourself and Ted can work on other things :slightly_smiling_face:
mixologic	What about the nodejs updates?
mixologic	I know that @lauriii was working on something related to that, but I dont know where things stand on that.
mixologic	(nodejs version on drupalci) : #3107927: Update Node.js to a more recent version on DrupalCI
xjm	@mixologic We agreed those can be done during beta so not prioritizing them in the next 5 days
xjm	(unless all the beta blockers are done sooner than the end of the week) :wink:
xjm	@mixologic So the calendar dates by which they should be done have not changed, just whether or not we release the beta first
mixologic	@xjm okay, so thats "bottom of the beta blocker list, softish blocker, still ASAP"
mixologic	Also, Calendar dates?
xjm	We moved it to "should have"
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	well, @mixologic has a ticking clock himself :slightly_smiling_face:
xjm	Exactly :smile:
xjm	Circling back. Is anyone here able to help with one of those three frontend issues? CSS review/testing and related CR for the CSS dependency update. OR! JS dependency review. OR! New theme review please please say yes :smile:
dan2k3k4	I can ping frontend people in Amazee, not sure how many will be free to help this week though
catch	#2821525: Update normalize.css to the most recent version is currently needs work for issue summary update and change record, so does not require CSS knowledge to get back to RTBC.
dan2k3k4	@xjm if I have questions for the first issue, is best to ask in this thread? in a DM / another place (e.g. #frontend ?) or in the issue?Basically wondered if we are grabbing the latest normalize.css and then applying our own changes, and if we're applying our own changes, how do we want to separate those from "stock" normalize.css to perhaps make it easier to upgrade in the future? Or perhaps we don't care that far into it as if we ever need to upgrade, then we should do it with a new lib or from fresh again ?
dan2k3k4	@catch ah good to know :smile: then my comment above can be disregarded if no CSS changes are required :slightly_smiling_face:
xjm	@dan2k3k4 Good questions! Patch addresses those things.
xjm	@dan2k3k4 Basically, we're using the latest version, and then adding specific CSS rules to fix regressions in individual themes or base themes as needed. They are grouped together in a specific file I think and each CSS rule is documented regarding why it's needed.
xjm	@dan2k3k4 Going forward, the Stable base theme will always be tied to a particular Normalize.CSS major version for BC. So Stable (8 version) will include Normalize 3, and Stable 9 will include Normalize 8
xjm	This is part of what they want to explain more clearly in the IS and CR as well
dan2k3k4	IS = Issue SummaryCR = Change Record(sorry just didn't know what CR meant :smile:^) (edited)

7️⃣ Outstanding beta1 requirements: misc issues (edited)

Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	@xjm raised this
xjm	#2846994: Increase minimum version requirement for Postgres to 10 and require the pg_trgm extension Travis has just posted a review suggesting some small improvements
xjm	Is anyone up to respond to his feedback and roll an updated patch implementing that and the t() removal as appropriate?
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	@xjm updated, I did not remove the t() because I don’t agree it should be removed :slightly_smiling_face: maybe I am missing something?

8️⃣ Outstanding beta1 requirements: upgrade path issues (edited)

Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	@xjm raised this
xjm	@plach is currently working on #3056543: taxonomy_post_update_make_taxonomy_term_revisionable() and the menu link content equivalent fail when entities have no default translation and @catch has been reviewing it, but the issue is tricky, so if you can review it that's super
xjm	#3066801: Add hook_removed_post_updates() is progressing well; @timplunkett (he/him) is currently doing a full review of the issue and I think it's getting close.
xjm	lol sorry, I failed
xjm	#2917600: update_fix_compatibility() puts sites into unrecoverable state is an issue Ted is working on right now. He's got some additional test coverage he will post shortly; after that, it could use a review. It could also use someone to file two followups.
berdir	I've just posted updated patches for #3098475: Add more strict checking of hook_update_last_removed() and better explanation. Will hopefully pass now. It's still tagged as a beta issue, but I think that part has already been committed to 9.0 and it's just the 8.9 backport now (and some minor nitpick fixes for 9.0). Unlike other issues, the D8 backport is not beta-blocking because it's just a "regular" bugfix for contrib/custom modules relying on that hook as core itself doesn't use it in D8 and never will. Still, would be nice to have it done. (edited)
xjm	@berdir I was going to bring that up in a separate thread -- I think it should maybe be a beta blocker but it wasn't marked as such yet
xjm	@berdir Oh right, that was why, second time today I've forgotten
xjm	I'll take a look at the new patches
xjm	Any takers for any of the first three issues?
berdir	I'll try to catch up on them and help if I can
berdir	a lot of work stuff atm, so not too much energy left for core, but I'll see what I can do. (edited)
catch	I am re-rolling #3106666: Remove post updates added prior to 8.8.0 for one more upgrade test failure, once that's done it should be green and read for review. The patch is long but most of it is code removals and boilerplate additions.
xjm	(Especially once the blocker is committed)
dww	I've got some urgent billable work I need to do today, but I hope to have a chance to finish reviewing 3066801 ASAP. I'll also start reviewing 2917600 when I can.
dww	Not sure I'm allowed to RTBC #3113992: The 'Update' page has no idea that some updates are incompatible since I wrote the original patches, but I at least hope to also carefully review the test coverage Ted added in the next couple of days (if not sooner)

🔟 Drupal 10 plans

Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	@vuil raised this
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	#3118143: [meta] Release Drupal 10 on December 14... or 15... 2022 is the plan issue (edited)
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	likely end of life for Drupal 9 is end of 2023 (end of support for Symfony 4.4)
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	we are attempting to make Drupal 9 compatible with Symfony 5 as much as possible, but starting to require Symfony 5 would be a BC break as the API is built now
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	if we can make it not be part of our API then we can swap out major releases of Symfony without requiring a new Drupal major version, that may be possible from Drupal 10 onwards, if the respective work is done
xjm	The meta has many child issues where I've started bulleting out the Drupal 10 requirements
xjm	There is a LOT
xjm	A couple things on the list might take a full two years by themselves
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	@xjm suggested in the last meeting that we start the Drupal 10 initiative as soon as possible once Drupal 9 is basically done (RC time or release time), and I started drafting a this session proposal for DrupalCon Barcelona:
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	Screenshot 2020-03-04 at 19.41.34.png
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	(event attendance will definitely not be required to contribute/participate and stay in the loop as the Drupal 10 inititative will be run really similar to Drupal 9 at least initially, although not with weekly meetings :smile:) (edited)
voleger	If someone interested in Drupal 10 readiness here is some meta to address during Drupal 9 life-cycle #3097045: [META] Provide modern replacements for and deprecate the legacy include files

1️⃣ :one: New updated open source State of Drupal 9 slideshow! Present it yourself! (edited)

Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	https://slides.com/gaborhojtsy/state-of-drupal9
hestenet (he/him)	:partywizard:
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	I put in plenty speaker notes and links and will keep it updated.
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	The previous google slides version will not get updated anymore other than a pointer to this :smile:
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	Thanks @dan2k3k4 for his review of this :slightly_smiling_face: (edited)
dan2k3k4	:slightly_smiling_face:
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	I have a few events coming up where this was approved for presentation, will present either in person or virtually as possible / feasible.
dan2k3k4	I just "forked" it to see how easy it is to do that, and then changed the background of the first slide:https://slides.com/dan2k3k4/state-of-drupal-9...and you don't need to pay for slides.com :slightly_smiling_face: although you can to unlock more features (edited)
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	yeah I did not pay for it to create it either
dan2k3k4	Do you get stats of "forks" (copies) ? (edited)
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	also when you hit present you can customize whether speaker notes are shown, they are shown in my copy so it can be used as a “slideument” (in a good way)
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	@dan2k3k4 no, but I did not get that either in google docs
dan2k3k4	The audience can also follow live e.g. https://slides.com/gaborhojtsy/state-of-drupal9/live (edited)
Gábor Hojtsy (he/him)	yeah, there is also an interesting mobile phone remote control feature that I should try sometime :smile: