Please add Russian language to localize.drupal.org

Comments

Assigned:Omicrown» Unassigned

Status:Active» Postponed (maintainer needs more info)

What's your relation to http://www.drupaler.ru/ ?

I registered at drupaler.ru, and sent a request to add me to the team of translators, but there were no answer. And I think that it would be logical to keep the Drupal translation service on drupal.org. But I can make a great contribution to the translation on drupaler.ru if I have access to upload the translated texts.

Well, the question is more like whether we can move that. If not, I'm not creating a duplicate group. There should be one canonical source for translations, and if a team is not willing to move to localize.drupal.org and enjoy the convenience it offers, then I'm not gonna step in the way.

I've posted an email to the drupaler.ru maintainer.

Assigned:Unassigned» pvasili
Status:Postponed (maintainer needs more info)» Closed (won't fix)

I answered in private...

Assigned:pvasili» Unassigned

Status:Closed (won't fix)» Postponed

Marking postponed since #816708: Add Russian language to l.d.o, #814774: Add Russian to l.d.o and #593992: Add Russian language to l.d.o have all been submitted as duplicates since to request this because people do not find won't fix issues. They are normally hidden.

Status:Postponed» Active

Would you add the Russian language. Waiting for D7, we could start the new translation.
As I see, the previuos request was appr. a year ago, but no results...

@ggd: What is your relation to http://www.drupaler.ru?

No relation. I cannot agree with some their versions of translations. And the usability of the site and service might be better. In any case I'll make my own translations for D7.

@ggd: Then see comment #4.

Status:Postponed» Active

Well. Such attitude means that my version of translation further will be independent on your team just as on the version that you consider as canonical. Speaking and reading Russian I do not need such canonical version, but you do. Let be so. You were offered but you refused.

P.S. I cannot understand why the localization version must be unique. It should be correct and suitable. And how many versions should be, it depends on tasks and situations. Maybe you don't know that there exist several versions of the Russian language that differ as Royal English and American English. So I cannot understand why you forbid variative versions.

ggd,

I too believe that canonical Russian translation is poor at best. At the same time I fully understand reluctance of the maintainers to create a duplicate group at a first, or second request, and open the floodgate for conflicting versions. If you are sure you can spare enough of your time and expertise to create a better translation, why don't just start a new localizations server? Then, if your translation is better, I am sure people will gladly use and "canonize" it.

Status:Active» Postponed

There is also canonical Italian and non canonical Italian; that doesn't mean that we are going to have two translation groups on l.d.o.
There are then many variant of any languages, as well as there are many variants of American English; that doesn't mean we are going to necessarily create a different translation group for each of these variants.

I am changing the status back.

Thank you, Mark!
I have no time to support a new localization server in addition to my main sites. But as you wrote I will spare my time and experience to create a better translation.

The duplicate groups in this situation will be the best solution. Let name them "Russian I", ...,"Russian n" etc. just as the same for other languages, and no discussions besides the pure linguistics.

Moreover, I'd like to make another English-to-English translation, the existing English core version is too heavy for my projects but no doubt is the best for some others.

Technical support for these ideas is not so hard.

Dear colleagues, think about these possibilities.

@ggd: well, Drupal.org has a general policy to try and avoid duplicate work where possible. CVS account requests are screened for duplicate module submissions (among other things), and we have a similar system here. Historically, drupal.org did not run its own localization server, and these remote servers were advertised as the definite source for translations. Once the server software became more stable, we moved most teams to localize.drupal.org. Not everybody was happy about that, and we are respecting that decision. I think its generally not in the best interest of users to be required to obtain translations from third party sites, but we are not in the business of trying to fragment the community and try and unseat existing active contributors.

Status:Postponed» Closed (won't fix)

ggd The Russian localization server was open as long ago (~3 year).
Now it has 330 registered translators. Russian team has the first place in quantity of translated strings (~ 48k).
The site (drupaler.ru) has forum. All questions about site work ask on the site forum.

Status:Closed (won't fix)» Postponed

This report has been marked as postponed to avoid users create a duplicate report.

Status:Active» Postponed

I agree with @ggd. This is nonsense to have Drupal translations in all different places. First I went to localize.drupal.org and was really surprised when didn't find any info on Russian translations. I had to spent almost an hour to find that drupaler.ru localization server. How new members should know about it?

If Drupal gives us an official tool to make localization tasks we have to use it. We have to use it's benefits.

ggd The Russian localization server was open as long ago (~3 year).
Now it has 330 registered translators. Russian team has the first place in quantity of translated strings (~ 48k).
The site (drupaler.ru) has forum. All questions about site work ask on the site forum.

I don't think this is a big deal to move those translations to the official Drupal localization server. Moreover, Drupal 7-dev has only ~4k translated strings with lots of mistakes. I just checked it on drupaler.ru.

Here is what official localize.drupal.org FAQ says:

Q: How will all these translations be distributed?
A: We are still onto figuring out the answer for this exactly. The plan is to remove translations from the CVS repository and package translations for module releases periodically. People would get their translation packages from http://localize.drupal.org/ via some kind of automated means. We have a few ideas which still need to be explored.

That means that if we don't move Russian translations to localize.drupal.org all Russian speaking Drupal users won't have an opportunity to automatically get translations in the future. So, we'll have to add Russian language to l.d.o eventually, you just can't keep it postponed forever. That's the point.

P.S. I'm also willing to participate. Not on drupaler.ru though. It's not an official website, just someone's "translation server" with google ads and random posts. No one knows what's gonna happen to it tomorrow.

The information architecture for the entire drupal.org presence is being restructured and reorganized, so that hopefully there won't be this confusion in the future. The redesign is close to launch. If you'd like to help ensure that translation packages have a clear and useful home, please follow up on the redesign issue queue. More on the redesign process and filing issues can be found here: http://groups.drupal.org/node/97729

Laura

@laura s: while I agree localize.drupal.org would love to see some redesign attention, this issue is about the existing maintainer being comfortable with their existing localization server (understandably), which means Russian is not available on localize.drupal.org.

@Gábor Hojtsy, do I understand correctly that because of one person (maintainer of drupaler.ru) who feels comfotable with his own translation server, all Russian speaking users won't have an access to official Drupal localization server? If so, it doesn't make any sense to me.

Drupal is a community project, we can't make decisions just because of one person.

We can start translating on localize.drupal.org and if someone likes translations from drupaler.ru he can use it at any time. What's the problem?

The problem is duplicating the work done.

localize.drupal.org didn't exist when other translation sites where built; that is the reason why a translation group is not created on l.d.o, if the existing translation server is not shut down first. The problem doesn't exist for translation projects hosted only on d.o; still, it's the current maintainer that can decide when to pass on l.d.o.

@Sergey Naumov: from what I'm seeing, 186 people contributed to the drupaler.ru translation (http://drupaler.ru/translate/languages/ru). Ignoring them and opening a new place is not screwing with one person, it is screwing with 186. There is clearly wast amounts of existing work being done, and yes, Drupal is a community project where we strive to avoid forking and peacefully evolve based on existing projects. Let's try and not screw with the existing 186 contributors and try and find a good way forward.

Technically, there is nothing wrong with a team using their own localization server, it is just that the team will not have the visibility from drupal.org and will not be included in things like the comfy localized Drupal install profile (http://drupal.org/project/l10n_install). It is much harder to find and install, yes. I think the way forward here is either to continue indefinitely on drupaler.ru or that you contact multiple people from drupaler.ru and come to the maintainer to discuss this. It is just the people who'd be willing to take the project forward elsewhere who could persuade an existing maintainer. Once again, this is a community as you said where mandates do not work, discussion works.

Oh, and by the way, it is not just the 186 existing contributors who we'd screw but also all the users who currently download their translations from that server, and will keep doing so.

We are not going to screw them. I just suggest to start translating on l.d.o and eventually contributors would move here, because it's more logical to have translations on official Drupal website, especially if Drupal will have some kind of tool to automatically install any language from CMS itself.

If we keep postponing this issue leaving it up to drupaler.ru maintainer we never gonna have an offical Drupal localization for Russian language, which means that new members (and those who doesn't know about drupaler.ru) will have to spend extra time trying to find translations. There are even no links here pointing out that you can download Russian translations from drupaler.ru.

I'm out of here. You guys don't think about new (and future) members. I believe it's a matter of time and you'll realize that the current approach (leaving everything up to drupaler.ru maintainer) is definetely not the best decicsion.

P.S. I'll try to be optimistic and wait for Russian group on l.d.o, so we can start working on translations in the future =)

2 Sergey Naumov -
- Russian community (at drupaler.ru) has 350 (http://drupaler.ru/groups) members and 180 (http://drupaler.ru/translate/languages/ru) active contributors
- It was one of the first active localization server (starters ~3 years ago).
- Now it has the leader of total count translated strings (> 50 k) among other team.
- For the last 2 years visitors have: downloaded >440K PO files (http://drupaler.ru/translate/download) and ~ 2000K update translation only Drupal core (through Live Translation module)...
- If you have questions or suggestions - you can talk in their native language on the forum http://drupaler.ru/forum

@pvasili, It's cool, but it doesn't mean that Drupal is not supposed to have an official translation for Russian language. 3 years ago Drupal didn't have l.d.o. Now it has an official tool.

It agree with Sergey - it is necessary to make Drupaler.ru part LDO. Translates should be official, instead of private.

Already now to add the transfers difficultly enough (I am simple I do not want to say a word it "impossible").

subscribing.

The purpose drupaler.ru - migration to l.d.o, but most people easier to work on drupaler.ru
Guys, let's move the discussion in Russian (http://drupaler.ru/forum).

Moving the discussion to be in Russian on drupaler.ru seems counter productive; the only people who likely could follow and participate easily would be the Russian translation team. This effectively shuts out any voices who aren't the Russian translation team. Meanwhile, I think there are stakeholders in this debate beyond that - such as people who don't speak Russian, but want to import the Russian translations into their Drupal site or those who want to see the Russian translation project brought into the localize.drupal.org ecosystem for centralization and integration with the existing l10n tools.

I mean no disrespect to our Russian contributors, but I would like to see this conversation to remain in English. This language is a common ground between the Russian translation team and the vast majority of the Drupal community.

As a side comment, while I understand that the Russian translation team feels very comfortable at drupaler.ru, the user experience for non-russian speaking users is very poor, and it doesn't integrate with the rest of the l10n tools, at least in any documentation I have found. It isn't clear from the website how to actually get at the translations - how would I import contrib translations into my site? Does it integrate with l10n_client or l10n update? While eventually, I went to the localize tab and found how to download individual translations, it is not immediately evident for someone who hasn't used an l10n_server type website before. Meanwhile, localize.drupal.org offers a wonderful user experience, at least for the english portion of the community. If we can't convince the Russian translation team to merge into localize.drupal.org, hopefully someone is able to make some usability improvements to the website to bring it up to par with localize.drupal.org in terms of usability and feature compatibility.

brianV thanks for your comments. The purpose drupaler.ru - migration to l.d.o.
- We provide support in English (for non-Russian-speaking) http://drupaler.ru/forum/Localization_Server
- At Drupaler.ru site has a running service Live Translation, L10 Client and some other.
- Too many sites set up to automatically receive a translation from drupaler.ru
- Many novice users (who do not speak English) very difficult get translate from the English site
- There are other problems....

I think that's a good idea to do an automatic update from any l10 server to l.d.o (for all non-native users).
Any other suggestions - are welcome.

P.S. Now the site run on the excellent Drupal hosting http://it-patrol.com and fully supports all Russian team.

To avoid user confusion (WTF is between localize.drupal.org and d.o translation projects?), localize.drupal.org now becomes the source for translations where we now point users with the redesign launched yesterday. Read more at http://localize.drupal.org/node/2049 This means finding translations not on localize.drupal.org is not possible via the navigation anymore.

The drupal.org project / CVS space for Russian will stay for some time. However, as announced/documented at the end of August (at http://localize.drupal.org/node/1904), we are also going to move off of using (human managed) version control for .po files once the git migration hits. This means that translations not on localize.drupal.org will not have an accompanied project or any other project resource on drupal.org associated (given no code/text for it on drupal.org).

Google and friends will always work for people who realize no Russian is available from drupal.org. People who need Russian will need to find and learn the unique ways that drupaler.ru works.

Google and friends will always work for people who realize no Russian is available from drupal.org. People who need Russian will need to find and learn the unique ways that drupaler.ru works.

Instead of trying to migrate Russian translations to l.d.o, thus making a nice centralized system of translations available for everyone, you are basically saying to users "Go Google it!".

Yes, Drupal is an open source projects, so its not like we can mandate anything. Drupal.org was always one of Drupal's core strengths, that it provided a central project management interface for modules and themes and translations. Also, it always had rules that it does not provide project space for stuff hosted elsewhere (so if you set up a project on drupal.org there is a requirement to host code on drupal.org as well). Same applies for translations. Of course people do all kinds of module and theme development outside of Drupal.org and people do translations outside of drupal.org. That is fine. However, Drupal.org never stepped up as a place to advertise those, it is focused on supporting its own users.

First of all, I've never said anything about advertisement and I'm not affiliated with drupaler.ru in any way.

Second of all, you say "it is focused on supporting its own users" - well, then maybe you should create a group for Russian language on l.d.o? Otherwise, you are contradicting yourself by saying "we support our own users, but we don't have Russian language on l.d.o and never gonna have it. At the same time we support all other languages. If you need Russian - go google it, find it somewhere else!". Is this your support? Or maybe you think Russian users do not belong to Drupal's "own users"?

"Also, it always had rules that it does not provide project space for stuff hosted elsewhere" - did I say anything about "stuff hosted elsewhere"? =)

The only thing I'm asking for (and I'm sure I'm not alone) is to create a group for Russian language and let us translate. Done. Please, don't say "go Google it or ask your friends". Drupal's l.d.o is for *all* languages, not the ones you prefer.

Otherwise, we'd like to get an official reply from "The Drupal Association", telling us that Russian language won't officially be supported on localize.drupal.org.

Thank you.

By "drupal.org supports its users" I meant people who use drupal.org to contribute to the community. The existing Russian team does not do that. It is not our decision that the team was built out that way. There were various teams built out in similar ways before, most of which gradually migrated to localize.drupal.org. Migration is not our decision. Our policy is (as explained above), not to screw with existing contributors and not to support forks of existing translations. As long as the Russian team has this many contributors and an active maintainer, I don't think its a good idea to dismiss that, pretend that does not exist and start fresh. That is not really in the interest of Russian users either. You not only loose existing data, you also loose an existing team and an enthusiastic team of contributors. And thats much more important. Imagine all the Drupal code without the teams behind them. That kind of sounds tragic, doesn't it? We try to avoid exactly that by not pulling the rug from under existing teams.

I understand your frustration, but once again please understand you need to discuss this with the existing team not with us. Feel free to contact the Drupal Association, their mission does not cover project steering decisions, so I'm not sure they'll get you a relevant reply.

The team of russian translation exist > 3 years.
This team has 357 users (188 active).
This team has translate more than 50 000 rows!

Sergey Naumov (Member for 1 week 3 days) personally translate 0 (zero) rows.
Sergey Naumov offers to remove the existing team :(.

Where is logic?

Sergey, have you a plan how to assemble a team (with your's experience) and as to move on at l.d.o?
Share your plans...

Ok,

>Sergey Naumov offers to remove the existing team :(
Where did I say I want to remove the existing team? Being honest, I don't really care about your website. No offense. Keep on working there if you want.

>Where is logic?
The logic is that the Drupal has l.d.o now, the place where all translations have to be done. This *is* the main goal of l.d.o. And this is being done in order to integrate the translation system of l.d.o with the CMS itself in the future. Do you realize that? Doesn't seem so. Looks like you just want to have your own website and you don't care about the future of Drupal and it's users.

>Sergey, have you a plan how to assemble a team (with your's experience) and as to move on at l.d.o?
What do you mean by "with your's experience"? I'm pretty sure I have more experience of translating software UI than you do. The fact I've registered here on Drupal.org only a week ago doesn't say anything about me. I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous you are saying that. As you might have noticed from this thread I'm not the only person who is willing to translate Drupal into Russian.

>Share your plans...
My plan is to open a group for Russian language on l.d.o first. Then start working on translation. This is my plan. Good enough? =)

P.S. Just noticed:

The team of russian translation exist > 3 years.
This team has 357 users (188 active).
This team has translate more than 50 000 rows!

Sergey Naumov (Member for 1 week 3 days) personally translate 0 (zero) rows.
Sergey Naumov offers to remove the existing team :(.

- sounds kind of like "my precious" story =)

Sergey Naumov offers to remove the existing team :(.

Actually, the existing team could move all on l.d.o; if a member of the translation team on drupaler.ru would ask to create the Russian translation group on l.d.o, he would become the owner/administrator of the Russian group, and he could give the permission to translate to other members of the actual translation team on drupaler.ru. In this way all would be happy.

To be clear, I am not forcing anybody to pass on l.d.o; I am just pointing out something that could not be clear to all users.
AFAIK, the only users who can ask to create a translation group on l.d.o (for what I understood; Gábor Hojtsy is who knows better) are the maintainers of the translation project hosted on d.o, and the maintainers of a translation server that is not hosted on d.o; in both the cases, those users are who are made the initial owners of the translation group.
Drupal.org administrators are not forcing anybody to pass to l.d.o either. If the existing Drupal translation team think there is no pro to pass on l.d.o, or have developed custom code to better handle the needs for the particular language, then they have probably a reason to stay on their actual server.

Personally, I would think that the fact l.d.o is administered from the user who maintains both the client and the server translation module would be a reason more to pass on l.d.o; the fact d.o uses custom code that integrates the project handling with l.d.o (e.g., the link View project translation found on the CCK project page links to l.d.o) should be a reason more to pass to l.d.o.

I've checked forum on drupaler.ru, it's almost inactive with about 5 messages in several weeks from 3 or 4 users.
It's really selfish to hold on to that site when there is a new official way to translate using l.d.o, with all the benefits it brings.

I think the only way is to create a new Russian translation group on l.d.o, if drupaler.ru team doesn't move here, then there should be a new team formed.
I'd gladly join Sergey Naumov on his attempt to localize Drupal, and this job can be done really fast

I also vote for a new official l.d.o. Drupaler seem to be dead.

On a philosophical note, at what point does the policy of not duplicating a community effort on d.o give way to forking because the people leading said community effort aren't working in the best interests of the larger community?

I think there is an argument to be made that the continued use of drupaler.ru isn't in the best interests of the community; it's very difficult for non-russian users to use, it doesn't integrate with the l10n tools, and in general is *very* inaccessible.

The proposed solution is to move it to a location where it will be very easily available to everyone, integrates effortlessly with the tools we use for the rest of our translations, and generally provides a better experience for everyone involved.

Worst case scenario, there is no reason a translation team on l.d.o and the translation team on drupaler.ru couldn't work together. After all, they are all working towards a common goal (increasing the availability or usability of Drupal for the russian language), just with different tools.

This team has translate more than 50 000 rows!

If there are no links from l.d.org to drupaler.ru so... this great job of russian translation team becomes useless for many users.

I also vote for a new official l.d.o. Drupaler seem to be dead.

( it's just a rumor :) )
and has (through the live_translation):
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Project Existing modules requests
drupal 2283122
live_translation 2193651
views 1821185
cck 1757850
token 1653764
filefield 1387565
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2 kiamlaluno thank you for your message. Now Russian translation team working very actively. Now it is the largest group, even among l.d.o teams (and has more then 51k string).
All participants are comfortable working on drupaler.ru
We provide support for all our users and are always ready to share translation (http://drupaler.ru/translate/download or us live_translation module).

Hmm...

I work in small studio, I am engaged in development of sites on drupal. My judgement - is more preferable to have russian translates on drupal.org. drupaler.ru is very great, it has imported madly huge contribution to development drupal communities to Russia, but.... It and is bad - sharing, segmentation, separation from the main platform. We want Russian translation on drupal.org

Нарушу-ка я "традицию"! Напишу по-русски.
Drupaler.ru хорош, но для 7 версии там мало что пригодно (к примеру нет опции "Drupal 7 формат пакета" при получении перевода). Можно ли синхронизировать наработки drupaler.ru и localize.drupal.org для удобства (т.е. связать серверы переводов)?

[translation of the previous comment given by Google Translate]

Drupaler.ru good, but for version 7 there is little that is suitable (for instance there is no option "Drupal 7 format package" upon receipt of transfer). Is it possible to synchronize the operating time and drupaler.ru localize.drupal.org for convenience (ie, linked servers translation)?

It would be fine to add Russian translation in l.d.o. I agree fully with Sergey Naumov and #43 message of kiamlaluno. I cannot support miserable separation of Vasili Pinchuk ( aka pvasili ) at all. I hope he would find enough sobriety to place russian translation on l.d.o. and provide proper syncronization of actual changes.

Dmitry Bezgodov

+1 subscribing

Сайт drupaler.ru ужасен, там неудобно как переводить, так и пользоваться переводами. Одна свистопляска с регистрацией чего стоит. Надеюсь, этому препятствию скоро настанет конец.

(google translation of #54:)

Site drupaler.ru terrible, there awkward translation, and use the translation. One of pandemonium to the registration of what it takes. Hopefully, this obstacle will soon come to an end.

As kiamlaluno says:

Actually, the existing team could move all on l.d.o; if a member of the translation team on drupaler.ru would ask to create the Russian translation group on l.d.o, he would become the owner/administrator of the Russian group, and he could give the permission to translate to other members of the actual translation team on drupaler.ru. In this way all would be happy.

Actually, I'm a member of translation team on drupaler.ru and I asked to create the Russian translation group on l.d.o long ago. I was waiting when maintainers of drupaller.ru create a group on l.d.o, but it seems never happen.

I'm not satisfied the quality of drupaler.ru, and I'm not satisfied that Russian users actually don't see any Russian translation on drupal.org at all, as if this language doesn't exists. How do they know about a third-party site?

So I ask to create the Russian translation group on l.d.o.

greenmother - не соглашусь с вами. Сайт drupaler.ru это верх удобства для переводчика. Я не помню иного сервиса, где можно было самостоятельно сделать перевод в течении 5 минут и сразу им воспользоваться. Однако отсутствие интеграции с localize.drupal.org удручает.

greenmother - do not agree with you. Drupaler.ru site is very convenient for the interpreter. I do not remember a service where you can do the translation yourself in 5 minutes and immediately use it. However, the lack of integration with localize.drupal.org depressing.

ru--
2 greenmother, если вы не смогли даже зарегистрироваться (а 5962 посетителя легко это сделали) то как вы сможете помочь сообществу?
Возможно я пропустил ваш вклад в сообщество, но пока он состоит только в попытке удалить работу 190 человек в течении 3 > лет. 17 год (до основания) мы уже проходили...
keha3912, любая интеграция или синхронизация(или автоматический обмен, выкладывание готовых переводов) - я думаю будет лучший выход. Или любая иная форма.

Сейчас очень много сайтов и сервисов привязаны к этому домену. Много переводов попадает с локального клиента.
+ рабатают вещи, которые на l.d.o ни кто для нас делать никогда не будет.

полноценная работа с 7 версией будет сразу после его релиза

en--
Welcome any suggestions for a healthy integration of services with l.d.o.

Почему же не смог, зарегистрировался в конце-концов, правда пришлось писать админу (Вам, видимо), чтобы добавили в группу, т.к. запрос никто неделю не подтверждал. Параллельно стал, почему-то, админом этой группы, как и больше сотни других пользователей, и попал в получатели запросов на регистрацию. В рассылке в поле "To" было более сотни е-мейлов (спасибо за сокрытие приватной информации) и приходила она через раз в html с заголовком Content-Type: text/plain. Стало понятно, почему запрос никто не подтверждал. Потом что-то переводил и закачивал, потом сайт, кажется, вообще лежал, не помню уже, но стал слать файлы переводов авторам интересующих меня модулей напрямую, чтобы добавляли их себе в translations.

Но это всё не важно, основные глюки наверняка уже исправлены, новые понаделаны, бог с ними. Важно, что семерка прямо при установке предлагает пройти на l.d.o. и скачать оттуда свой язык. А русского языка там нет. Тут неподготовленному пользователю надо как-то догадаться, что нужно лезть на какой-то drupaler.ru и продираться там через безумные дебри навигации, чтобы добраться до нужного перевода. Как он должен будет догадаться?

Удалять я ничего не предлагаю, и переводы, и переводчики могут мигрировать. Причем, мне кажется, большинство переводчиков было бы за переход на l.d.o., если бы их спросили.

I create discussion with poll on Russian community site:
http://drupal.ru/node/52937

Please, come and vote.

PVasili, I told you long time ago about automatically export translations with simple download links (with no need for choising categories in webforms etc.). I think we need to make scripts for regulary synchronizing l.d.o and drupaler.ru translations — to both directions. And then translation team members may to select appropriate interface for work and users download results from both sites.

Setegnom, I moved your poll to drupal.ru main page.

Status:Active» Postponed

Russian comunity vote for l.d.o

At the moment 65.7% for l.d.o
and 34.3% for drupaler.ru

drupaler.ru must die drupaler.ru must live

l.d.o - live forever

drupaler.ru must die

Don't speak so. It is at least disrespectful. Without drupaler.ru, now there would be no russian translation. Their contribution more than is necessary and invaluable. Simply in my opinion it is time to make changes and to join to l.d.o.

I'm sorry

Мозги у тебя ужасны позеленевший! Нельзя так. Все там нормально, а если есть проблемы, то все решабельно, а ты хочешь просто нагадить. Зависть гложет? Я за drupaler. Василий молодец, много сделал для переводов. Теперь получается хотят всю работу, которую проделал Василий позаимствовать и слить всю себе команду? Я правильно понял? Как то неправильно.

И да учите русский язык.

seaji -> я был о тебе лучшего мнения. "drupaler.ru must die" --> предаЁшь?

> предаЁшь?
Совсем наоборот, Хочу, что бы Русский распространялся все больше и больше. Что бы прямо при установке можно было бы выбрать язык, чего невозможно достичь с drupaler.ru
Была бы эта фича на drupaler.ru тогда я бы за него вклочки порвал бы любого.

По результатам голосования уже можно включать поддержку перевода на русский язык.
А дальше уже решим как работать будем.

Google translation of #65 by Shamaner:

Brains you terribly turned green! It is wrong. Everything there is fine, but if there are problems, then all reshabelno, and you just want to shit. Envy gnaws? I'm for drupaler. Basil boy, did much to transfer. Now we want to get the work done by the Basil borrow and merge all of his team? Do I understand correctly? How wrong.

And yes teach the Russian language.

Google translation of #66 by Shamaner:

seaji -> I had a better opinion of you. "Drupaler.ru must die" -> devotees?

Google translation of #67 by seaji:

devotees?
Quite the contrary, I want that Russian would spread more and more. What would be right at the installation would be to select the language, making it impossible to achieve with drupaler.ru
Would have this feature on drupaler.ru then I would be for him vklochki broke to anyone.

Google Translation of #68 by Unnamed:

Following the voting is already possible to include support for translation into Russian.
And from then on we will decide how to work.

Status:Postponed» Active

Please add Russian language to localize.drupal.org

Russian comunity vote for localize.drupal.org

I'm maintainer of http://drupal.org/project/ru

Совсем наоборот, Хочу, что бы Русский распространялся все больше и больше. Что бы прямо при установке можно было бы выбрать язык, чего невозможно достичь с drupaler.ru
Была бы эта фича на drupaler.ru тогда я бы за него вклочки порвал бы любого.--> лучше у своих делать. где патриотизм?

В чем проблема указать основной сервак в России и сделать синхронизацию? Да и вообще что за дела монополизации? Что теперь свое иметь никто не имеет право? Плохо кончат с таким подходом. И на старуху бывает проруха

@Shamaner прости, но в данном контексте для меня "свои" - это друпаллеры всей планеты.

@Shamaner прости, но в данном контексте для меня "свои" - это друпаллеры всей планеты.

-- а Я Русский!

Status:Postponed» Active

Russian always a good start, and then fight.
Not the first time I've seen such situation. :(

Ok, this has gone far enough. I'd urge all participants in this discussion to please:

  • Read the Drupal code of Conduct and behave accordingly
  • Remain on-topic and constructive
  • Comment in English: this is the drupal.org webmasters queue. Most webmasters don't speak Russian and Drupal.org is not a multilingual site. Regardless of the subject of an issue, the language used should be English to allow everyone to participate in the discussion (I'm guessing by now, most d.o. webmasters can no longer follow this thread).

Future non-English comments and comments violating Drupal's code of conduct will be deleted.

Google translation of #74 by Alexandr Poddubsky:

Quite the contrary, I want that Russian would spread more and more. What would be right at the installation would be to select the language, making it impossible to achieve with drupaler.ru
Would have this feature on drupaler.ru then I would be for him to vklochki broke any .--> better in their doing. where patriotism?

What's the problem tell you the servak in Russia and do sync? Or indeed for the case of monopolization? Now that your have no one has the right? Bad will end with this approach. And the old woman is proruha

Google translation of #75 by seaji:

@ Shamaner sorry, but in this context for me, "your" - it drupallery the entire planet.

Google translation of #76 by Alexandr Poddubsky:

> @ Shamaner sorry, but in this context for me, "your" - it drupallery the entire planet.

- And I'm Russian!

I just want to summarize the current conversation state (as I see it) for the benefit of the d.org webmasters, followed by some remarks of my own.

  1. There is an active request by two Russian translation team members (Nilard and seaji) to add Russian to localize.drupal.org.
  2. There is also a distinct policy against duplicating work in the Drupal community.
  3. There is a good portion of the Russian community that would prefer the Russian translation team move to l.d.o.
  4. However, the maintainer of drupaler.ru is not interested in merging, along with a seemingly smaller portion of the Russian translation team.

My personal feeling is that moving to l.d.o would be a good move - as someone who has tried to install Russian translations on a project within the last months, my experience is that drupaler.ru has a very poor user experience for a non-Russian user. Added to the fact that it doesn't work with any of the l10n modules on Drupal.org and requires the work-intensive Live Translation module to fetch translations.

Live Translation requires you to fetch each module's translations individually. This takes 30s - 2min per module. I did this for a client site with 158 modules, leading to hours upon hours spent pulling Russian translations in. This was very frustrating when the other 5 site languages were pulled in with a single click and a background batch job via the Localization Update module. All of this is on top of the time spent trying to determine how to retrieve Russian translations in the first place, since it is not really documented in an easily-findable place.

There is a very comfortable little community at Drupaler.ru who have made huge contributions to the Drupal project, and deserve to be recognized for that. However, I don't think allowing a large translation project to remain outside the localize.drupal.org ecosystem is in the best interests of the wider community. Does this mean drupaler.ru should be shut down? Not at all... but it does mean, in my opinion, that they should integrate with localize.drupal.org in some way. Is there any possible way to have 2-way synchronization between l.d.o and drupaler.ru?

The bottom line is this: At what point does the greater good of the wider community allow us to overlook the 'no duplication' policy, especially given that there is a fairly small number of people opposed to moving to l.d.o (even if one of those opposed is the Russian translation team leader)?

Final note: The Russian translation project is more or less going to have to move to l.d.o eventually anyways if it wants to remain relevant and findable for Drupal users. To quote Gabor's post in #35:

To avoid user confusion (WTF is between localize.drupal.org and d.o translation projects?), localize.drupal.org now becomes the source for translations where we now point users with the redesign launched yesterday. Read more at http://localize.drupal.org/node/2049 This means finding translations not on localize.drupal.org is not possible via the navigation anymore.

The drupal.org project / CVS space for Russian will stay for some time. However, as announced/documented at the end of August (at http://localize.drupal.org/node/1904), we are also going to move off of using (human managed) version control for .po files once the git migration hits. This means that translations not on localize.drupal.org will not have an accompanied project or any other project resource on drupal.org associated (given no code/text for it on drupal.org).

Essentially, Drupaler.ru will have no official affiliation with Drupal.org in any way.

Indeed. The git migration is planned to land before Drupalcon Chicago, that is 2011 March (as per http://groups.drupal.org/node/106224). We are planning to move all translation activity on drupal.org entirely to localize.drupal.org (core and contrib translations alike) with that.

Most translation teams jumped to the option to not need to maintain their own infrastructure anymore and moved to localize.drupal.org which maintains all d.o projects and releases and has more server and client friendly update tools (l10n_update vs. live translation, see above). This infrastructure is also built in to distributions like l10n_install which will serve as a model for localization enabling other distributions. Theoretically it could be possible to maintain a team on a remote server and sync with localize.drupal.org however the tools are not in place at all. The server maintains attribution to the submitter user, so the two servers would need to have an identical userbase, or the attribution would get lost both ways when syncing. Also, what would you do with things approved on one server and declined at the other one? These are problems which would be great to be solved for distributions on a similar note, since some Drupal distributions might want to run their own localization server and push/pull from/to upstream. However, no distribution maker signed up to solve these problems yet, and there are other more pressing issues in the l10n_server issue queue itself compared to building the ideal decentralized translation database/UI for us to work on.

For similar reasons, the later a team migrates to localize.drupal.org, the more content is attributed to "the team" vs. the individual contributors, since the import itself involves assigning a single contributor. Teams who migrated early benefit from rich attribution data on their further suggestions and translations.

In short, the policy to not duplicate existing work is to help users and contributors to not contribute to projects which will not get their input to the "official" translation, and to not use outdated translations. By requesting to close down existing servers, contributors and users are informed that there is a new way to contribute/get stuff.

Sorry for my russian comments before.
I'm ready work with russian translation team at LDO, not drupaler because it inconvenient and no sense at present.
Please add Russian language to LDO.

So, what should we do?

I officialy request to add Russian language to localize.drupal.org
as maintainer of http://drupal.org/project/ru

I can take administration of this group

maintainer of drupaler.ru agree
comunity voite for localize.drupal.org

There will be no sync with drupaler.ru, official translation will be at localize.drupal.org

All users and contributors will be informed about "official" translation

Well, the drupaler.ru discussion is amazing and enlightening. I just read the first page, because Google Translate choked on it at the end for some reason. However, I did not find any confirmation from the drupaler.ru maintainer of his agreement to move the server, so not sure where have you seen that @seaji?

Мaintainer of drupaler.ru refuses to write at drupal.ru
Нe was not opposed in private correspondence, but our request to write here ignored.

pvasili's opinion is here
http://drupaler.ru/2010/11/l_d_o_or_not_l_d_o

В любом случае, лично я буду ориентироваться только на удобство для коммюнити и невнесение раскола в сообщество.
Если активные члены сообщества решат, что нам лучше на l.d.o, и если найдется тот, кто персонально возьмет на себя бремя переноса и решение всех возникших в связи с этим проблем - дамп в руки (все обращения я замкну на этого человека)...
В случае переезда на l.d.o сайт продолжит работу как альтернативный сервер переводов на "для своих нужд" (скорее всего частично закрытый) с русским и остальными языками, кто продолжит работать тут.

Translation:

In any case, I personally will rely solely on convenience for commyunity and not to split the community.
If the active members of the community will decide that we are better at ldo, and if there is someone who personally take on the burden of transport and the resolution of all arising in connection with this problem - a dump in the hands (I closed all access to that person) ...
In the case of moving to ldo site will continue to work as an alternative to server transfers "for their own needs" (probably partially closed) to Russian and other languages, who will continue to work here.

Google translated page should refresh sometimes. It can't translate new comments instantly.
Drupaler.ru maintainer decline discuss with community and standing in read only. His opinion writed here (google translation). He doesn't agree move server by oneself but agree assist anybody who ready do it (look at the end of his post there). Most of russian community ready to start work with it (look at vote results and comments).

Dear Gábor Hojtsy.
At the site of the Russian community, and by a vote of a majority agreed to support the Russian language on ldo
Administrator of an existing server transfer has been repeatedly proposed to realize the ability to synchronize ready translation ldo, in order to preserve the existing community of translators, but he said that "do what you want, I have nothing to do with", although previously promised to help, to dump the database transfer.
Site drupal.ru in discussing the supporters to leave things as they are not given any arguments in its favor.
Considering this is only to open the full support of the Russian language on localize.drupal.org

Issue tags:+russian

I'm an creator and maintainer of http://drupal.org/project/ru and coordinator of the Russian Drupal community (http://drupal.ru).
Approximately 2/3 of voters at http://drupal.ru/node/52937 want to move translation to localize.drupal.org and 1/3 voted for staying at drupaler.ru. I join the majority opinion and I think that opening a project on l.d.o. is a necessity. If there is support from the drupaler.ru team (and of course support from localize.drupal.org team), we should prepare scripts for synchronize drupaler.ru and localize.drupal.org translations. For my count, I ready to help with synchronization Drupal core translation from the drupaler.ru to drupal.org CVS. We need links to actual translations at drupal.org/project/ru and drupal.ru too.

Translation for russian spoken drupalers:
Я майнтейнер http://drupal.org/project/ru и координатор рунетовского сообщества друпалеров (http://drupal.ru). На сегодня в голосовании http://drupal.ru/node/52937 примерно 2/3 участников выбрали перевод локализации на localize.drupal.org. Присоединяюсь к мнению большинства и считаю, что открытие проекта на l.d.o. является необходимостью. Если будет содействие со стороны drupaler.ru (и разумеется со стороны админов localize.drupal.org), то следует организовать синхронизацию переводов drupaler.ru и localize.drupal.org, чтобы усилия всех участников команды перевода были едиными и на выходе был общий результат. Со своей стороны готов помочь в синхронизации drupaler.ru с CVS drupal.org для предоставления на drupal.org/project/ru (и на drupal.ru) актуальных для скачивания версий русской локализации ядра Drupal.

Axel, once a team is created on l.d.o you'll be able to import existing translations as .po files. Also, you might or might not want to do the work of exporting for CVS, we are phasing out CVS (and d.o translation projects) for translations, see #980658: META ISSUE: get d.o language projects all on localize.drupal.org and #980682: Deny creation of new translation projects and releases of existing translations and #980686: Output a big warning on project/translations and translation projects. Once we set up the l.d.o group, the drupaler.ru group should not be active anymore. It might make sense to keep for posterity, but if it keeps accepting data, then we'll not get people moved over here. So either it should be turned off or permissions revoked to submit new stuff and notices visibly posted of the move.

I can help You with mirgation from drupaler.ru and maintaining russian l.d.o project

Gábor, ok, I understood that d.o. translation projects are obsoleted by l.d.o. Then drupal.org/project/ru not need anymore and not need export data from it, because actual Russian translations all kept on drupaler.ru and maintained by their team. I only ask to move maintainers from an old group to a new group on l.d.o.

Voting at drupal.ru is shows point of view of russian drupalers, but we can't direct control work of drupaler.ru. Pvasili (http://drupal.org/user/88480) is coordinator of the drupaler.ru project and only him may decide further destiny of this site. Now community are divided: there are majority who want to create new l.d.o. group and still large group who want to stay on an old place _and this old team really works now on russian translations_. If we create new group and ask Pvasili to close his project, then we just lost a team of russian translators who prefers drupaler.ru only. Are exist ways to synchronize drupaler.ru and l.d.o. files? If not or it difficult, maybe just make links from each translation project to another. And let translators to select new or old workplace. I understood it will duplicate work, but I think it really compromise solution for first time if we want to really move team smoothly, but not destroy it and slowly assemble from the scratch.

> If we create new group and ask Pvasili to close his project, then we just lost a team of russian translators who prefers drupaler.ru only

I don't understand why changing url in browser could destroy Russian translation team? It will kill them?
It's just another instrument.

Imagine, I'm translator and I'm used to save my translations in Google Notebook. Well Google closes its project "Google Notebook". So, I will never translate again?

Its nonsense, sorry I can't understand it.

Issue tags:-russian

@axel: I explained above that there are no tools whatsoever to continually keep two translation servers in sync, even though it would have been useful for other uses as well (distribution translation servers specifically). It is not yet a priority for the l10n_server, and no community contribution came along to implement it.

If something showed us that having translations two places is a very bad thing, is our soft treatment of the issue on drupal.org. I get continued complaints from users (that the d.o translation projects linked from drupal core are outdated, that translations included with projects are outdated), and from translation contributors/maintainers (that people keep importing translations derived from the .po files downloaded from CVS). Therefore we are accelerating moving the remaining teams to localize.drupal.org and putting up warnings for users to not use the d.o downloads/projects anymore. See #980686: Output a big warning on project/translations and translation projects and its related projects.

The same applies to having multiple communities to translate to a language on and out of drupal.org, especially if the outside team was preexisting and therefore established and known among the local community.

I respect efforts of drupaler.ru team, but l.d.o. group needs for spreading Drupal in Russian language. As shows voting and discussion on drupal.ru (http://drupal.ru/node/52937) there are a lot of people ready to work in l.d.o. infrastructure. I think it enough reason for creating translation group here. As one of maintainers of Russian translation at drupal.org I ask drupal.org webmasters:

1. Open Russian translation group on localize.drupal.org.
2. Join me to maintainers of the new group.

As an coordinator of Russian Drupal community I will set up links on drupal.ru to a new l.d.o. group as _only one official translation_.
Due to old relations between drupal.ru and drupaler.ru projects, links to drupaler.ru translations remains kept. We are in opensource project and any person can fork source (or translations) and make derivative works. We can't stop other people to work on that they want.

Category:task» bug
Priority:Normal» Critical

Why not until now the Russian language on localize.drupal.org?

Category:bug» task
Priority:Critical» Normal

@Unnamed
it is not critical and not bug report .

Status:Active» Postponed

Please dont rush... This issue should be active only when involved people have had a migration plan and team leader.

As for now I see only podarok and axel - and only podarok who actually can lead a translation team.

@ axel and seaji - I apreciate and respect all your work for russian community but there's a talk about localization... project/ru is a good example...

A prefere to close comments for this issue to not disturb webmasters queue maintainers and Gabor by emotional flood.

Let's get an actial migration plan and responsible leaders!!!

EDIT: most of ru.po files in projects are seriusly outdated so no need to get translations from them

drupaler.ru in progress of migrating to l10n_server v2 but this takes a time because there's thouthands of live sites that uses live_translation and we can't drop their support.

@brianV OTOH we all (russian team) have no idea about needs in russian translation for international sites except frontend translation which is actially depends of each site specific (vary from one project to another) and please share you opinion a bit close

@andypost so, you close discussion
at drupal.ru you say: "topic is live for a week and there is no move"
and now you stop it at all.
thanks
I love you to.

Cool down emotions by self Andy :) First point of start: to open new group on l.d.o. and let people who want work here doing it. Until translation moved we put links to drupaler.ru. drupal.org/project/ru was obsoleted by drupaler.ru, which offered more usable workspace for translators and it normal situation. Now drupaler.ru obsoleted by l.d.o. and it also is normal.

andypost, you do not finish speaking something. You say on drupal.ru what on drupaler.ru more services than localize.drupal.org, drulaper.ru easier than localize.drupal.org, and have more good usability. What does mean what phrase: So "do not rush ... wishing to store popcorn spectacles:)" Because you know here? And what does mean phrase "I prefer the own server of translations to hold... To my clients live translations not needed and I not want to train in their renamed items of the menu and other"

Do not mislead developers here and it is not necessary to write on different sites different comments with "popcorn". It's all only you personal interests.

Talked with @podarok - he can take a lead on migration. So this issue exactly about ldo so let's do not post here again

Let's finish discussion at http://drupaler.ru/2010/11/l_d_o_or_not_l_d_o and reopen this one

Status:Postponed» Active

please...
do not change Status of this issue
We have migration in process
our process not so fast as it was done with other languages - RU team are more specific
After long speaking with axel at drupal.ru and andypost in private and pvasili at drupaler.ru and private we see a plan for migration to l.d.o
but the plan it not a 5 minute fix

please give us a time and all will be done like a sharm with live drupaler.ru + drupal.ru + official russian localization at l.d.o

Add Russian language to l.d.o it seems now only a matter of time.
So, please add me to the russian l.d.o

Dear Gábor Hojtsy.
Your inaction, or rather do not wish to open a Russian at localize.drupal.org leads to more divisive than the Russian community the very desire to move to localize.drupal.org.

@Unnamed
It is not an issue against Gabor 8) Just figure it 8))))))
We are already work in progress for getting RU at l.d.o, just stop pinging all in this issue

@podarok I'm for you. Take a lead. And please add me to the russian l.d.o

@seaji
Ok, tnx

Status:Active» Postponed

Confirm @podarok as leader of ru@ldo he is a most expirienced in managment of localization community.

We should give a 2 weeks for all russian translation team members to share their opinions on drupaler.ru forum.
After this time we can start migration process/

Please don't change status until migration is not stated and pvasili set this issue status to RTBC!!!

PS futher discusions should happen only on drupaler.ru and drupal.ru

Status:Postponed» Active

@Gabor
Want to give You a few words about Russian team and Russian translation at drupaler.ru

1 drupaler.ru are fully intergated with live_translation module and @hidden@ server part for l10n_server for collecting statistics of downloaded translations. It was done ~3 years ago before created l10n* infrastructure and after that Russian team already translated >40000 string
2 As shown in statistic - Drupal core was downloaded >2 500 000 times during last year, just imagine it 8)
3 Due to using custom client and server code we have a trouble to intergare it into l10n* infrastructure in a short time
4 We have a lot of production sites that automatically update their translations from drupaler.ru

so
Last few days many people at drupaler.ru and drupal.ru talking about possibility of inclusion Russian translation into l10n* infrastructure
The main our fail is - custom code at drupaler.ru and we know that
But our large community already voted for l.d.o and we have to do migration

Yesterday I wrote a plan of migration all of the RU translations into l.d.o
It can be done in a few weeks like it was done with Ukrainian that was second in size at drupaler.ru more than year ago
But due to presence a lot of production sites... We have no plan about their migration yet
And, possibly we have to change code for the drupaler.ru server part for redirecting live_translation request to l.d.o files

Otherside
We also thinking about coding submodules for l10n* for getting support there for drupaler.ru support transparently for enduser

And PS
We thinking about creating temporary team that do periodically export from drupaler.ru for l.d.o site for getting support RU in l10n*(even possibly via cron)
Can we open ru l.d.o group with live drupaler.ru for the time of migration current Russian production sites from live_translation into l10n* ? If Yes, please, let me know and what we have to do for that.

Localize.drupal.org is not designed/intended to be used with automated scripted imports. You should have no issues to use the Ukrainian migration scripts, and generate .po files *per user* and then let each user import their translations, so the attribution is kept on localize.drupal.org. Otherwise your data is imported as a big heap of strings contributed by "the team". That might not be what you want. I think a sensible way forward: (a) if you'd like to keep your tools, you need to develop migration paths for them (such as live translation ftp.d.o redirection as you mentioned), (b) once you are comfortable migrating, you can do the per user .po exports as described above (and close down the drupaler.ru server for submissions, so your .po files represent the most up to date state). (a) might not need to be completed for (b), your live translation site clients will just get slightly outdated data until you implement (a).

Localize.drupal.org is not designed/intended to be used with automated scripted imports and those would not allow for your user attributions to be kept. This site is up for over a year now, and we continually migrate teams from existing servers and Drupal.org's project space. This issue was opened 4 days after localize.drupal.org launched, so we had plenty of time to discuss and prepare a migration. Looking at previous news posts it looks like it was first documented over a year ago (if not earlier), that CVS is not going to be used for translations anymore. It is not like you are hit by sudden news.

Let's follow the same process that we went with for the rest of the 78 teams now on localize.drupal.org.

@podarok
When do you plan to start migration? Should we wait or we have to use drupaler.ru?

we waiting for pvasili reply about plan of migration and about feature of drupaler.ru

@podarok

...and about feature of drupaler.ru

"feature"... may be "future"?

yes, "future" 8))

Gábor Hojtsy, you can not demand the closure of drupaler.ru, since it violates the GPL license. Why you do not need closure Pressflow?
Anyone can keep the existing server or create a new translation, it is their right. But you deny community in support of the Russian language on ldo, that violates your same rules of localization support drupal.org site and also impact negatively on the views of our community and other communities CMS (monitor developments) to you personally.
I advise you to reconsider your point of view and to include full support of the Russian language on ldo

Status:Active» Postponed (maintainer needs more info)

@Unnamed: the drupaler.ru maintainers explained above that if the Russian team is immediately created on l.d.o, drupaler.ru is still to be used by people reliant on its special functionality, so if we set up an l.d.o group, we effectively divide the community in two, some people will keep participating on drupaler.ru while others will work on l.d.o. There is no technical solution to cross-share these efforts, so we'll fork the existing excellent efforts by the translation team. Yes, localize.drupal.org lacks tools for multiple servers to co-exist in a peer-to-peer manner and the maintainers above suggested we create the l.d.o team right away IF those tools exist.

Therefore Drupaler.ru either needs to migrate its data to localize.drupal.org (and continue being at most read only) or keep working as the hub of Russian translation for the benefit of the translation team and the translation users. Or alternatively we'll wait for the peer-to-peer tools to materialize (which are currently not a priority for localize.drupal.org since we have other more pressing tasks and bugs to work on).

I've outlined my suggested migration plan above http://drupal.org/node/564794#comment-3760136 that would keep user attribution and keep existing tools for translation retrieval (but not submission) still work on drupaler.ru with the least effort for the maintainers. The maintainers of drupaler.ru can move to make this happen and looks like we are waiting for feedback from them.

Update: By the way there is no GPL violation involved that I know of, and I don't think anybody suggested that.

Hi Gábor,

If you decide to act as an arbitrator, please take a decision on the vote on the site http://drupal.ru/node/52937
Nearly two-thirds voted for localize.drupal.org and I think that you should consider this opinion.

Regards,
rsashka

@Unnamed

Gábor Hojtsy, you can not demand the closure of drupaler.ru, since it violates the GPL license...

On other side you cannot demand to open russian translation on l.d.o. And GPL will not help. If we need presence of russian language on l.d.o we have to follow the rules of l.d.o.

Status:Postponed (maintainer needs more info)» Active

I do not see the rules localize.drupal.org where it says that there should be no alternative servers translation.

Administration of this site drupaler.ru will not close your web server, and intends to continue its development. But why ignore 2 / 3 community?

Please add Russian language to localize.drupal.org
Or please close Pressflow

No! No need to close Pressflow

Why exactly is Pressflow being referred to?

@brianV Why exactly is drupaler.ru being referred here to?

Gabor: Update: By the way there is no GPL violation involved that I know of, and I don't think anybody suggested that.

This situations from drupal.ru, one of comment:
---
LDO admins have nothing against group creation... except for that closing drupaler.ru is a requirement
---

So, on drupal.ru this start discuss about this requirement. We don't understand, how you can demand from other person of closing of its own site, and how it may be requirement. GPL does not demand from PVasili site closing, and we do not understand why you demand this. Community votes for moving on LDO, and we don't understand why you ignor community opinion and not open group with other 78 teams on localize.drupal.org.

I an sorry, but if PVasili don't want close drupaler.ru and never close? Even if the community votes for moving on LDO. That you will do?

PS. Why Pressflow? Please do not touch Pressflow :)

Gábor Hojtsy, there's a D7 RC1 released already, and it has no support of Russian language. While other communities do theirs best to improve local translations to get ready to D7 release, Russian community has to WASTE lots of time waiting for a miracle, because of ONE PERSON with obsolete third-party project, made for testing purposes.

There's no problem to create a translation group and let community to choose itself where to translate. It is better than totally discard the whole community and official support for the Russian language.

Add Russian language!

@Unnamed, @setegnom: the other 78 translations teams were all added with the same process. If there was an existing CVS based translation and/or a translation server, we asked for that to be *moved* to localize.drupal.org. It is not a *move*, if we *add* yet another translation team here and leave some people off on existing ground. Quoting from above, what I see is that we'd leave the meat of the translation team on drupaler.ru:

Now community are divided: there are majority who want to create new l.d.o. group and still large group who want to stay on an old place _and this old team really works now on russian translations_. If we create new group and ask Pvasili to close his project, then we just lost a team of russian translators who prefers drupaler.ru only.

About a week ago, @podarok wrote this above:

Yesterday I wrote a plan of migration all of the RU translations into l.d.o
It can be done in a few weeks like it was done with Ukrainian that was second in size at drupaler.ru more than year ago
But due to presence a lot of production sites... We have no plan about their migration yet
And, possibly we have to change code for the drupaler.ru server part for redirecting live_translation request to l.d.o files

From what I'm seeing, there is some determination from the team to help with the technical part of the migration. This issue is open for 16 months, and if it just takes a few weeks to build a migration path to the satisfaction of existing users and keep the active members of the community, then this sounds like a great way to go forward.

We can keep taking our time arguing, or I can focus on improvements for the server, so it works even better for people and you can use your efforts to speed up the migration process by helping @podarok execute the migration plan. All of us get better results at the end.

+1 to add russian on l.d.o!

Gábor, you work very well, but to be clear, you can write conditions for opening group on LDO. Today:

* most people voting for LDO
* maintainer of http://drupal.ru - axel - aks you open group
* maintainer of http://drupal.org/project/ru - seaji - aks you open group

Comment from @podarok on drupal.ru (later): "Decide to move - I will make migration."
We decide move (see three items above), @podarok have plan, and everything, that we wait, this opening of group on LDO to begin migration. How can execute plan of migration without group opening?

Gábor, we wait only you :)

@setegnom: although @podarok did not post his plan here (which would be useful nonetheless), my understanding is his plan involves steps before the group is opened. He explained above possibly opening a group at first just as a *temporary* measure and not to actually be used for contributions, but to take data from drupaler.ru periodically in an automated way. I've explained above that the tools are not there to do that. Also, the vote was about moving the work here, not about mirroring work done elsewhere. (But even if the vote would have been about mirroring, as said a few times, the tools are not there to do that).

Therefore we are aiming to open the group when the plan reaches the point that data is available from drupaler.ru in the desired form (if you'd like to keep attribution I've explained the custom tools you need to build above, it is not complex) and that future contributions are to be made on localize.drupal.org not elsewhere. So in short, when the *move* (vs. regular copying of data) can happen. You all voted for a move to happen.

You can all contact and help @podarok implement the tools they are planning to complete to make this migration faster. His contact form is available at http://drupal.org/user/116002/contact so you can send your offers of help there. I agree it is unfortunate that thinking and development of these tools for custom developments on drupaler.ru did not happen earlier, even though this issue was open for over a year now. You can make it happen sooner, though, just team up.

Ok, let's imagine I add the Russian team on localize.drupal.org. That is the easy part. What happens then? All you can create accounts on localize.drupal.org and join the Russian team. It will be empty as in no guidelines and no translations. How do you get the translations in? Drupaler.ru has about 50.000 translations from 192 people across 6442 projects as far as I see for Russian. Are these numbers right? So the drupaler.ru interface allows you to export the translation for each project. You'll then need to have a big coordinated effort to export 6442 .po files. Ok, you then have 6442 .po files somewhere. You'll still need to get this into localize.drupal.org. Suppose each of you who downloaded some .po files import them on localize.drupal.org. If you import them with default settings, all strings you import will be attributed to you. No information will be retained of the previous contributor. The top 10 list for contributors will just be filled in based on who exported from drupaler.ru and then imported on localize.drupal.org the bigger project .po files. Or if you choose to not attribute strings to yourself, you can still use "Multiple contributors" to attribute to. This will assign all 50.000+ strings to one user, so it looks like all work of a team of unknown people. Then you can continue working on the translations.

I don't think (a) orchestrating this process of exporting 6442 .po files and (b) importing them back, while you (c) either got a very distorted view of who contributed what or just loose that information altogether is what you are looking for. If you are just looking for the common good and have no interest in keeping even the slightest bit of history, this could work (but still requires lots of coordination work to get the 6442 .po files generated and imported).

Add on that if we don't have agreement from the Russian team on drupaler.ru work will be ongoing there while/after you did all the above, with no possibly to sync the work done there to the localize.drupal.org team (except doing the 6442 .po file export/import again).

Look, I'm trying to get you up to work on a more peaceful process, which does involve the existing maintainer of the server, since he has the keys for all the data you cannot get out from there in other ways. Opening up the Russian team on l.d.o is very easy. Migrating all the team, users and data is the hard part. We don't even have most of the data (beyond the actual translations themselves) without cooperation from the existing server maintainer. If there is absolutely no chance that existing maintainers understand your determination and work with us, we can go on the painful import way, loose all the attribution information and go on working on localize.drupal.org pretending nobody existed elsewhere. I think working together gets us better results. This worked for the existing 78 teams.

My understanding is there is willingness from drupaler.ru to move the team/data, but existing custom developed tools need to be aligned and that needs developers / takes time. You can help with that as I've explained in my previous post. Please correct me if my understanding is not good.

@Gábor Hojtsy Honestly, I do not really understand the problem. You're trying to make mountains out of molehills.

1. Open Russian at l.d.o and choose coordinator
2. Coordinator import po files for core and 10 - 20 top downloaded modules to "Multiple contributors"
3. Axel put big banner at drupal.ru about move russian translation to l.d.o
4. translators register at l.d.o and continue to work here.

What it will give us:
1. It's quick and easy start.
2. Lines of translations often overlap, so importing core and top 20 modules will cover + 30% - 40% translation lines in other modules
3. *.po files do not have attribution, it is imposible to say "this po file was translated by @author". So it is impossible to import files to some user
4. if the translator had worked on the translation of a module, then he can go to l.d.o and import this translation
5. Translation is not a state, it's process. So not 100% translation is normal. Do not be afraid of this. Translation team will have the starting point and will improve the quality of translation.

Ok, well, none of the top 10 contributors to the Russian team showed their support here (unless I lost track and/or you use different names here and drupaler.ru). I understand those who did not contribute as much are entirely comfortable with dropping the history. I'm trying to keep my best to get you understand the consequences of what you're requesting, but if the team leads are entirely comfortable with this, we can go with just taking the translations and starting over from there. I certainly don't want to protect people from themselves if they know what they loose/gain.

I myself will question translators individually and present the results here in a day.

Hi, Gábor.
There are not only Russian team in Top Translators list of drupaler.ru. There are all translators of all languages hosted at drupaler, that translate at least one phrase ever. In top 10 contributors there only 5 russian translators, and most of them has no activity last weeks. Its normal that smb who was active in past has lose interest at now.
Please create Russian group at LDO. Absolute majority of people who currently active ready to work at LDO.

2Gabor
- first step - my comunication with pvasili and andypost that are main maintainers for drupaller.ru
for now - we waiting for pvasili free time for preparing per-user SQL dumps for translated strings(or maybe other ways, unknown for me)
- next step - converting that dumps to csv and then to po files (still per user) (its my work and experience)
- after that I, or pvasili or andypost ask You for opening l.d.o group and starting real migration (importing per user po files into l.d.o database)

before that we can only look at this @spam@ comments... 8))))

@podarok This is not spam, people are making all efforts to open Russian at l.d.o, unlike pvasili.
I would argue that pvasili not lift a finger and we will wait for weeks and weeks. Excuse my frankness.

@podarok
What is spam?
Gábor correctly says, it was very much time to prepare where you were then?
Now the question is not whether it would be converted to translate, but that it was done before the D7 release.

Subscribed. Wanted russian translations on l.d.o too
Than it will be possible update translations in my drupal distribution(aka brainstormblogger) automatically using drush or additional modules.

I want to have russian translation here, because druppaler.ru contains many errors, wrong translations, difficult search, druppaler.ru it's not useful!

I want to see russian translations on l.d.o too

Gabor, I want to see russian translations on l.d.o too
http://drupal.ru/node/54128
no russian currency in http://drupal.org/project/commerce module
http://i13.fastpic.ru/big/2010/1212/b2/21a6ce6eec22e838c1e5f9cf2dd49eb2.png
and such can repeat with other modules

7.0 RC 2 released. The final release is few days away. No russian translation!

@podarok
Уou have been chosen as maintainer, please answer - What are we waiting for? Christmas and Santa...

Get used to the idea that the Russian translation will not be on l.d.o

In my opinion, if there should be an official translation, then only on l.d.o. All others can be counted as "fans".

I still do not understand someone had an idea to give permission for entry into l.d.o.
The official MUST be l.d.o as well as the official modules in the official repository.

The existence of an official repository of modules does not require programmers to write modules for THIS repository only.
So why do you twist the arms of the translators?

Have passed a very long time since when was the last response from the administrator drupaler.ru. Indicate the deadline for a decision to move the server to transfer l.d.o
We understand that it can not DEMAND this of you, but you can not ignore the opinion of an absolute majority.
Please solve this issue.

Don't understand why all relay on drupaler.ru... There is nothing what makes it to an "official" translator of Drupal.

@ V I R U S
All in vain.
They have made it clear that Russian is a second grade.

During this time, I have to manually translate each module would be moved here. :(

It's clear now, pvasili will not cooperate in moving russian translations to the l.d.o, but why all russian users must suffer because of him?!

No one f*ing cares what pvasili will or not. May be he is a translator of Drupal, but not an official one. The Russian Part of Community here on Drupal.org/L.D.O will get more precise and mostly up to date translations than pvasili.

Really stupid argumentation...

@Gábor Hojtsy,
does it costs to you something to create Russian group on l.d.o? Drupaler.ru was created just only because there was !!!no!!! official russian translation group. Anyway, it will never fail here, since that's original community source. Think twice, how many people requested of creation of the group. That's mostly requested group i ever can remember.

Status:Active» Fixed

Well, drupaler.ru was created before any official translation groups existed, yeah. By now, all other translations moved from drupaler.ru to localize.drupal.org (migrating their data). Anyway, I really don't want to be in the way of Russian flourishing on localize.drupal.org, so I decided to take this decision into your hands.

I've created the team at http://localize.drupal.org/languages/ru and made @axel the initial owner / admin (as per our process we followed for all other languages on localize.drupal.org to appoint matching maintainers for drupal.org projects and localize.drupal.org leads). Right now, the group is invite only, @axel can change this configuration anytime himself. He can add more people, open up the group for any members (like other groups on localize.drupal.org), etc. There can be any number of admins and members, once @axel opens up the group.

If you think @axel is not the right person for the job, we need to change the maintainership of the drupal.org project and the lead of the localize.drupal.org team in a coordinated way. I'm eager for the name of the accepted new lead then. Group admins can manage permissions of people in the group, widening their capabilities. See http://localize.drupal.org/node/616 for explanation on how. It is highly suggested to grant both moderation permissions to those who you also designate admins. There can be any number of group administrators with equal translation permissions.

I've outlined a suggested migration procedure above. Just keep in mind that automated imports and scripted exports from localize.drupal.org are not allowed. The import and export screens are designed to be used by humans. Exports are made available automatically on ftp.drupal.org and can be downloaded in automated ways with http://localize.drupal.org/project/l10n_update (which is packaged with l10n_install as well). Imports are designed for people to work offline not to maintain parallel translation servers (the later which localize.drupal.org does not yet support!).

Please report issues as you find them! Note that we currently have an issue with duplicate imports (#999092: Import duplicate check broken), but you should not bump into that if you follow the suggested import procedure.

Thank you very much from all the Russian speakers:)

@Gábor Hojtsy,
thank you a lot for the right decision. I think @axel will do the right job, if not, we will punish him :)

If pvasili still decide to migrate his project, think there will be no troubles by doing this. Now gotta to translate!

Have fun!

@Gábor Hojtsy
God bless you. @axel is good candidate.

Thanx a lot Gabor. I got a drupaler.ru dump so @podarok is starting to extract russian strings.

Waiting for @axel to open a group so we can import strings owned from current drupaler users.

PS: WARNING to all drupaler.ru users - please fill drupal.org nickname or UID in drupaler's user profile

2Gábor Hojtsy
thanks a lot
btw - we need to change group manager from axel to podarok (common decision )
I and andypost already started to generate per user po files from drupaler.ru database dump

It is a sleep?
axel is best candidate.
Many thanks.

I think @podarok should be a maintainer of the group but axel can change this

Just hope @axel will appear here soon :)

Oh yeah! Good Santa heard us! ))
Gábor thank you!

2 andypost: I think that the theft of a dump of database without permission of the owner of site is a bad idea.
Starting with the theft - "сommunity" can go far ... ;)

The Андрей (@podarok) has all informations.
I trust him completely process (with the consent of the authors' translation).

Status:Fixed» Closed (fixed)

Automatically closed -- issue fixed for 2 weeks with no activity.