Update the support forums structure according to the current needs

For a quick background from the documentation, these are overviews of the three stages in the Drupal learning curve (user, builder, developer):

• Site building: beginner, intermediate, advanced
• Theming options: beginner, intermediate, advanced

forum about installing themes?

That's a short title, and tries to imply much more. I was also not satisfied with that title, but was thinking, if we want a really accurate title it would say:

"Themes at a beginner level, for new Drupal users. That is, neither modifying their CSS via sub-theming (intermediate level), nor writing themes from scratch (advanced level). Just asking for theme recommendations for their specific use case, and installing and configuring them."

Well, that's a little long title. ;) How about just "Choosing themes"?

Now that I think of it, you are right, "Installing themes" is not an accurate title. I will edit my initial proposal.

we need a general contrib support forum

Maybe that can be the new "Choosing and configuring modules", also for specific use cases, combinations of several different modules, etc. A really needed forum.

Maybe your "choosing and configuring modules" could be generalized to using contrib in general.

Yes, but of course in the case of something related to one specific module the recommended way is its issue queue, as all we know. Naturally, if there is no reply I think it's OK that the users ask in other also related places.

Thanks, now the mentioned edit...

The changes have been:

Installing themes -> Choosing and configuring themes
Installing translations -> Translations and multilingual sites

The first, for example for questions like "does this theme work well with that module?; if not, which others?", etc.

And about the second, if you've installed a Drupal site with several languages, you know how tricky it can be to get it right.

[Edit: It seems better to have just one forum for translations and multilingual sites, like in the current forums, given that here the line between beginner's and intermediate levels is less clear than in other cases]

Changing "Installing themes" -> "Choosing and configuring themes", and "Installing translations" -> "Translations and multilingual sites".

@davidhernandez: I think it's easier to have separate forums for the different levels of the learning curve. For example, many new users are happy to find something like the new out-of-the-box Drupal sites: Drupal distributions like Acquia Commons or OpenPublish, and quick hosted sites like Drupal Gardens or Buzzr. Intermediate users prefer to modify those distributions by installing other modules, or to create their own sites by combining core and modules. Advanced users exchange info about developing custom modules with PHP code, etc. So, some topics have a clear level already, at least for most of their use cases.

Anyway, adding free tagging to the forums (like in the issues) could be interesting, rather than for levels, for specific topics like in drupal.stackexchange.com (the technical Q&A service), since probably the number of forums will not be as large as the number of topics.

Of course they interact and help each other. It's more about separate topics than about separate people. One can be advanced in PHP code and at the same time a beginner in theming, for example. But it's true that most of the time people need to work on their specific topics.

Let's explain a little one of the purposes of this structure. Basically, about the different sections for users, builders, and developers, one of the main needs that we can see in the support forums is to help ease the learning curve. For example, we still see people convinced that they need to master PHP, MySQL, JavaScript and CSS before start building their first Drupal site. And they spend months in frustration; all theory, zero practice, no site.

So, it's important to support new Drupal users so that they can comfortably and gradually climb the learning curve. That is, from out of the box solutions for new users so that they can see how things work in practice, through modifying and building sites by combining modules, to developing custom modules for special needs. Step by step; from user, through builder, to developer.

And, in this way, and from the start, having always working sites to practice and to apply what they learn, some of them test sites, some of them live sites, all improving gradually.

This is it.

@davidhernandez: The problem with the current structure of the documentation is that it's mostly advanced and intermediate. Even those builders who don't yet know PHP get confused when the docs give programming solutions when there is often an alternative way with existent modules. And there is scarce documentation for beginners. We cannot reproduce that in the forums without some modification, because for example new users need an entry way.

About user/builder/developer, in the day-to-day reality they usually imply cumulative Drupal knowledge. That is, a new user is able to use out-of-the-box Drupal products, or pre-built and pre-configured sites like Drupal distributions for magazines, universities, communities, etc. But new users still have to acquire knowledge if they want to build sites themselves. And when a builder already knew PHP, etc., he/she can become a developer immediately, but in most cases has to learn first.

So, it's usually cumulative. Builders are also Drupal users, but have learnt to do more since the time they were new users. Developers can be builders and users as well, and normally can manage both existing modules and the creation of new modules.

That's why some topics in the "User Support" section can be useful for all Drupal users. Etc...

Finally, about a "Content edition" forum, it seems a little limited, even for new users. Like Michelle and WorldFallz, I'm not sure about its usefulness.

However, how about a more comprehensive "Content and workflow", or "Content management". That would be a different matter, and seems to really cover a need, on how to effectively use the many features available on Drupal sites.

It would of course be a forum for site management, not for site end-users. This can be useful not only for new Drupal users, but as well for the many, many site builders who also are site managers.

Or even better, "Content and user management". Opinions?

Merging "Translating Drupal" with "Translations and multilingual sites", like in the current forums.

Reviewing the Drupal Documentation, I've noticed there are two main areas in the User and Builder Guides section not yet included in the initial proposal of this issue. They refer to site administration (including content and user management, backups, security, performance, etc.), and site structure (content types, blocks, menus, views, panels, taxonomy, user profiles, navigation, etc.).

I will made them visible in the proposal, so that people can comment on this issue what needs improvement, or what is OK.

it just struck me as odd to organize by user type

@davidhernandez: Not odd at all. The Drupal.org Documentation includes main sections like User and Builder Guides, and Developer Guides. However, the docs are mostly intermediate and advanced, as already commented.

Probably, an usability improvement would be to have the "User Support" forums first, since we want new users start there, not in "About Drupal" (the general forums).

I'm moving the general forums after the support forums, like in the current forums, and renaming them from "About Drupal" to "Community", in order to prevent misunderstandings among new users seeking support.

You know, more suggestions and brainstorming always welcome. ;)

Adding Site administration, and Site structure and organization, corresponding to main areas in drupal.org documentation.

Renaming "About Drupal" to "Community", and placing it after the support forums, so that new users go more often first to User Support.

OK. Also, we want to link only to support resources from the drupal.org/support page, to prevent misplaced support requests in community workplaces. For example, a link to the support forums and not to the community forums, a link to the support mailing list and not to the lists for work, etc.

So, I'm placing the three support sections into "Support Forums". This is more similar to the current forums, making this organization update even easier.

Adding more details on newsletters as well.

@WorldFallz: Since the reasons for the proposed forums were not clear because of lack of description, I'm adding some description drafts at the end of this comment. They come mainly from the documentation. Please review it again, I really think the very old forum structure needs an update to the current situation.

For example, the Drupal Q&A service at Stack Exchange has even much more granular topic tags. Experts in each field go more easily to help in their specific topic, hence the success of SE.

zirvap wrote:

To me this looks too complicated. I tried looking at some of the questions in the forum now, and trying to determine where they would fit in the proposed structure.

That's why the current Drupal Forums have short descriptions for each forum in the index page. Naturally, if there is agreement about updating the forum structure and this issue is fixed, then the added forums will also have descriptions. The old forums (they are all linked here) surely will keep their current descriptions in most cases.

A question about reverse node reference -- is it General site building? Choosing and configuring modules (since the answer is "do something with views")? Site structure and organization?

Views is such a fundamental module that is included in the Structure Guide description in the documentation, and also should be in the description for the proposed forum, Site structure and organization. When in doubt, there is General site building. This is a building question, the User Forums are more for out-of-the-box Drupal solutions, and the Developer Forums more for PHP, etc.

A problem with editing posts - Site administration or General site building? And so on.

Clearly Site administration, according to the description in the documentation (content and user management, backups, security, performance, etc.).

See the comment #21: For example, Administration Guide and Structure Guide are two main sections of the User and Builder Guides in the Drupal Documentation, and should have their corresponding support forums.

The support forums, by contrast, will be used by newcomers -- they have a question and want to find a place to post it, without having to ponder the difference between "Site structure and organization" and "General site building".

I'm not saying the current forum structure is perfect, there may well be room for improvements. Looking at the number of new posts in "Post installation" compared to the others, it does seem that splitting it up would be a good thing. But it must be in some way that's easy to grasp for the people who ask for help.

I agree that Post Installation is too busy now. More specialized forums are needed.

To write the descriptions, we will only need to look at the documentation. For now, to give a few hints, keeping the proposed structure simple, I'm copying the Support part on this comment (the rest doesn't change), and adding some quick notes (mostly from the documentation) for the new forums, probably not the final descriptions yet.

• Support Forums
  • User Support
    If you are starting with Drupal, there are solutions to have a site almost ready out of the box, so that you can advance quickly and practice and experiment with what you learn.
    • Before you start
    • Quick hosted sites
      Drupal made easy. Services with a web interface to quickly create hosted Drupal sites. (Examples: Drupal Gardens, Buzzr, Pagebuild, ProsePoint Express...).
    • Drupal distributions
      Ready to use installations of Drupal for many different use cases: academic, community, magazine, nonprofit, etc.
    • Installing Drupal
    • Choosing and configuring themes
      What themes are good for this type of site? Does this theme work well with that module?; if not, which others? Are they configurable?
    • Translations and multilingual sites
    • Site administration
      Manage users and content, perform backups, secure your site, tweak performance, etc.
    • Hosting support
    • Paid Drupal services
  • Builder Support
    Add modules and features to existing sites, and build your own sites by combining Drupal core and your selection of modules.
    • General site building
      For site building questions that don't fit in one of the specialized builder forums. (This is the large Post Installation forum renamed).
    • Converting to Drupal
    • Upgrading Drupal
    • Site structure and organization
      Work with content types, blocks, menus, views, panels, taxonomy, user profiles, and navigation.
    • Choosing and configuring modules
      What modules are good for this functionality? Does this module work well with that other module?; if not, which others? How can I configure them to work together?
    • Theme and sub-theme customization
      Customize an existing theme by adding your CSS styles in a sub-theme.
    • Distribution customization
      Extend Drupal distributions with additional modules and features.
  • Developer Support
    Use PHP, MySQL, JavaScript, advanced CSS... to contribute patches and to develop your own modules, themes and distributions.
    • Module development
    • Theme development
    • Distribution development
      Create Drupal distributions and build their features.
    • Core development
      For questions on developing contributed core patches.

Michelle wrote:

You'll probably hate me for this, but I have a rather different opinion...

No worries... ;) Like always, we are expressing our ideas, the more ideas from the community the better, and hoping we can find a middle point among the ideas to improve the current support situation.

I'd rather see it split into what you are doing with Drupal rather than what sort of user you are as many people are all of them.

If I understand correctly, you suggest:

• General stuff (the current General forums, or Community Forums in the initial proposal of this issue)
• People making sites (site builders, and also developers of custom modules)
• Contributors (developers contributing modules and themes to the community)

For possible ideas, the Drupal.org documentation has the following sections:

• User and Builder Guides (a little for users, mostly for builders)
• Developer Guides
• Reference
• Tutorials
• Community (this includes sections for module and theme contributors)

The initial proposal in this issue has mainly:

• Users
• Builders
• Developers
• Community

davidhernandez proposed all users, builders and developers in the same forums, and a new forum on content edition, which the documentation includes in site administration.

zirvap wanted more clarity (before descriptions were added), and said that splitting the big "Post installation" forum in several easy to understand topics would be a good thing.

WorldFallz has worked hard helping users in the support forums for years, with the same forum structure, and has proposed 7 forums. If we add "Converting to Drupal", they are exactly the same 8 support forums we have right now. That is, no change. I understand it's difficult to change after all these years, however Drupal is changing, the users are changing, and if we don't change then the great granularity of Drupal support topics at Stack Exchange wins. Experts are more willing to volunteer and help if they can quickly find questions of their specialty, like at SE.

About Contributor Support forums, suggested by Michelle, possible topics would be:

Supporting users
Submitting patches
Maintaining projects
Translating Drupal
Organizing events
Writing documentation
Testing and reporting
Etc...

Those are many topics for different forums. Maybe just a Contributors forum in the Community section? Not sure which option would be useful. Also, custom modules and contributed modules are developed similarly, apart from the project maintenance tasks.

Section "Support Forums" for easy link from drupal.org/support, and more details on newsletters.

I've just added a Contributors forum to the Community section in the proposal, so that people can consider about it as well. It seems it can be useful indeed.

@Michelle: That sounds like something a bit less public than a forum. Maybe a new working group at groups.drupal.org... I didn't find one for project maintainers, just Co-Maintainers for Projects and Projects Needing Volunteer Developers.

Descriptions for the new proposed forums.

Michelle wrote:

What I was proposing was more technical. Like if I have a bug I can't get past and need a more experienced coder. My worry, though, is that there really is no way to keep out people who _aren't_ contributing and it's likely to be overrun by anyone looking for coding help for anything, which defeats the purpose of having it separate from the "developing for your own site" section. Hmm... I think I just talked myself out of the forum I want the most. :(

Thinking a little more about your proposal, it would basically be splitting the development section between custom and contributed development. Something like this:

• Developer Support
  • Custom module development
  • Custom theme development
• Contributor Support
  • Module project maintenance
  • Theme project maintenance
  • Distribution development
  • Core development

Or "Contributed module development", etc.

Your idea seems good. Should we go ahead with that?

@Michelle: Indeed, it's not easy, however something like what you propose should exist. It would greatly speed up contributed development.

A similar case is the development mailing list, initially for core development but in practice used for support requests. The problem is discussed in the core issue #1236280: We need a central place for core contributors broadcast their business. Several people there commented the problem was the ambiguous name of the list, "development" instead of "core".

In the current forums, there is a similar problem, with a "module development" forum. However, if developers of custom modules have these forums in the list:

• Custom module development
• Module project maintenance

in that case probably most of them will choose the first one.

@WorldFallz: Among the different ideas suggested, I'm adding to the initial proposal the modifications that seem to have some consensus. Since we all think Michelle's is a good proposal, it only would take her "let's try" to add the Contributor Support section to the issue summary.

No access control then. Still, I really think unambiguous forum titles like "Module project maintenance", even with no 100% success rate, of course, can however create a great difference from the current "Module development" forum, as mentioned in #36.

Michelle wrote:

If others are up for it, we can certainly give the forum a trial run. If it doesn't work out, the posts can always be merged into the general developer forum.

I've just added the Contributor Support section, and the Module project maintenance, and Theme project maintenance forums, to the issue summary. Also descriptions for them at the end of the summary.

After that, I've just seen #43. Let's comment what's best to do about this.

From the new issue:

for contrib, whether mailing list or group, or whatever people think is best. Just some sort of space

A possibility is to keep the Contributor Support section in the proposal of this issue for now, until it's more clear what is the most appropriate place: mailing list, g.d.o, forums...

Contributor Support section added.

Issue Summary edited for clarity, following the Issue summary template.

Issue Summary edited for clarity.

#1236290, origin of this issue.

Minor edits for clarity.

Adding some details and info.

Reference on the learning curve, followed by the proposed forum structure. and other details.

Forum structure, titles and descriptions come mainly from the Drupal Documentation.

Forum structure (user/builder/developer), from the documentation.

Two separation lines for proposed forum structure.

Minor edit (space).

SubHub, also similar to Drupal Gardens, etc.

Link to handbook on quick hosted sites.

Well, if we are going to try to have free tagging (similar to SE's) on the forums, probably we can simplify this forum structure proposal. Anyway, to have this logic structure in addition to tags (and maybe also adding answer voting) is an advantage over other systems such as SE.

Drupal distributions and other thousands of new quick sites are becoming a hot topic, however it's possible they can fit in other categories for now (installation, administration, etc.). The site structure topic seems to be confusing for some, even when it's a documentation section on drupal.org, and an administration section on Drupal 7.

So, how about removing these topics from the proposal?:

• Quick hosted sites
• Drupal distributions
• Site structure and organization
• Distribution customization
• Distribution development

This would leave just two new topics for users, and other two for builders.

Minor edit on quick hosted sites (alphabetical order).

I've just removed the mentioned topics, to see the simplified forum structure in the issue summary.

For reference, their descriptions were:

Quick hosted sites

Drupal made easy. Services with a web interface to quickly create hosted Drupal sites. (Examples: Buzzr, Drupal Gardens, Pagebuild, ProsePoint Express, SubHub...).

Drupal distributions

Ready to use installations of Drupal for many different use cases: academic, community, magazine, nonprofit, etc.

Site structure and organization

Work with content types, blocks, menus, views, panels, taxonomy, user profiles, and navigation.

Distribution customization

Extend Drupal distributions with additional modules and features.

Distribution development

To create Drupal distributions and develop their features.