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By domineaux on
Six (6) weeks I've spent working to learn Drupal.
In the past, I worked with Xoops (5+years) Joomla (back to Mambo days)
When I got into Drupal I was very excited about the Taxonomy, CCK, Views and the core modules.
I've run up against a few issues that have knocked the "*#$)" out of my enthusiasm for Drupal
It's not about whether I'll ever be competent with Drupal, it's how long it is going to take.
The Handbooks section is pretty good, but plenty of the information is not updated from 4.7.
I assume not having current information for 5.0 is probably not a biggy for most, that is, if you've been working with Drupal for a long period of time.
The basic terminology always varies between software products, especially CMS. The terminology used in Drupal module documents is different from other CMS terminology to some degree.
A few things that would help dramatically in learning Drupal
1. The more complex modules like CCK, Views, etc. Need a document that dissects the entry webform with context help. The context help needs examples as well.
2. A careful tutorial needs to be provided that explains Site structure and how Drupal handles content.
A few things I've learned by experience:
The Taxonomy is just a category creator for practical purposes
The CKK module just adds additional fields to content creation webforms.
The Views module just lets you find information by queries and returns the information is several formats.
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Setting up the Drupal actual website/page construction is a unique operation compared to other CMS. The way modules relate with the actual site construction is obscure when studying documents.
Most of the program code examples in documents is fine. Coding examples should not take the place of carefully explained documents. Most users of CMS are not full function programmers. Many of us just use the great CMS tools to build sites, and do a miniscule amount of coding.
3. Basically, new users probably need some complete modules for specific popular things. I'm sure users could easily be polled to determine a most popular set of complete modules. The respective modules that are used need to be applied in a package with a clear explanation, i.e, downloads module.
Some of us need to get sites up and working pronto, and a huge learning curve just doesn't cut it.
Flexible tools to build great sites are definitely a plus in Drupal, it's just getting enough viable information to understand how modules work thoroughly is hard to acquire.
I think the downloads portion of this site has a great deal of information provided to users, but usually the way a module works and how you integrate it into your sites is just not there.
In conclusion... If you read this and know of some really competent documents or videos that explain Drupal modules, site structuring, etc.
I'd love to read them
Thanks to all
Comments
Amen!! I've been going
Amen!!
I've been going through the same frustrations you mentioned and I haven't even gotten into CCK and Views...
Another thing that really needs to improve is the search, both in the site and in the forums. It's REALLY frustrating trying to search for something specific. And what about advance searches??
And what about advance
What about it? If you click the 'Advanced search' link you'll get some extra options.
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The Manual | Troubleshooting FAQ | Tips for posting | How to report a security issue.
Obviously, this forum
Obviously, this forum contains a lot of information, but I agree with you that there is a dire need for real manuals. For beginners, esp. the Cookbook (http://drupal.org/handbook/customization/tutorials/beginners-cookbook) and the Getting Started PDF (http://drupal.org/files/getting-started_2.pdf) are very useful and readable.
But the world is more than just drupal.org :-) Maybe these too are of some help:
http://www.puregin.org/Drupal-handbooks : regular collections of what is written in the handbooks of this forum, without all the jumping and clicking, just one big huge handbook (or rather, a handful of them).
http://www.mediafire.com/?fvt2jxsdxvs : a 94 pdf manual from, of all places, Nepal ! Very good and instructive.
http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/ibm/osource/implement.html : a bit older, but very good stuff indeed by our friends at IBM.
And when you're looking for a real book on paper, there's Pro Drupal Development by John K. VanDyk and Matt Westgate. A must-have, if you ask me.
Good response Ludootje I'm
Good response Ludootje
I'm going to check into all your linked information. Heck, if I can get one good idea from each it will be worth it.
Even a new perspective/viewpoint from another person can make a difference in the learning process.
Thank you
What I have always loved
What I have always loved about open source is that there is no one that can tell you 'DO NOT'.
Remember that you can always contribute, yes, pointing deficiencies is good, but you can always grab a pen and start writing those manuals, no one will come to you asking you to pay fees or to throw everything to the garbage because you violated some copywrites. You can even make a good profit out of it, become an expert and help others.
I am now at this forum trying to give back what ever I know.
Thanks for you input, but please go that extra mile and do something more than pointing out what is needed -> DO IT!!!!
Regards,
Felipe
Geeks Socializing
http://inTribu.com
Have you got the cart before
Have you got the cart before the horse?
feloescoto:
Writing a document or white paper is out of the question for me at this time.
You need to go back and read my original posting. I can't get a handle on this CMS to this point and I've been into it for 6 friggin' weeks.
These forums have been alot of help, and I've read and read everything I can find.
I have been printing out the handbooks so I can really dig into them.
Straight off, I don't mind sharing from what I know. I like to be accurate when I share, not trying to make work for people.
I think until I know what the heck I'm doing it would be premature to think of writing support documents. LOL
...
In this you are wrong. It is not pre-mature. As you are new, you are in a position to see what you don't understand and gaps that need filling. This does not mean that anyone else will have time to write such things, but now is the time to take note and perhaps take a shot at it.
All to often, people get past the initial learning point and then never go back and write down an explanation for what was difficult for them to grasp. Complicating this is that a users perspective and experience which can make things more difficult for new users. Drupal is 7 years old and 13 full release versions with the 14th about to be released. It has a very different architecture and orientation than a lot of other CMS's out there. Not understanding this difference seems to really make some people angry.
My general estimate is 3 weeks to 3 months to begin understanding Drupal. There are a lot of things that are easy to do, but when something doesn't quite work, it may be a limitation in Drupals capabilities, or a limitation in your understanding of Drupal. When you are new, it's hard to know and the way you ask may or may not be understood by other forum readers. People who vent, often get ignored.
Printing the handbooks? Last I checked a few months ago that was around 1400 pages.
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
It's a love - hate relationship......
Drupal clearly needs a bit more focus on the basics. Not on the basic of getting core working, that's gone pretty well over the past 2 years, but on the basics of module implementation and use. I've gone back a few times and have explained in minute detail how I got something working (and a few times had my post altered - I think because I got too basic) And on numerous occasion have volunteered to document the end result of what I was attempting to do (I've never been taken up on my offer.) Often times, the question I'm asking is also being asked numerous times else where without answer.
First, I think all conversations revolving around the functionality of any specific module should end up in the section of the respective module. Next, what I think every module section needs is a Documentation tab OR maybe an Implementations tab. Now clearly, in the beginning the author would need to answer some very basic questions - something many programmers are not really into doing but it is very important if they want their module to really catch on.
Now, to make that Implementation tab light up anyone posting a question should be automatically subscribed to that thread. Currently, if I post something in the Support section for a module I should be automatically "Subscribed" to that thread. I know there is a Subscribe link, but in my personal opinion if you are asking for help you shouldn't be shy for giving some back - if you want to un-subscribe that's fine, but I think most would stay subscribed. The problem currently is that you must "look" for the subscribe link and many don't know it's there or forget when they post.
People by nature are helpful, but you still have to make it easy....
I think Drupal needs an Ease of Use person on the board (which I did recently volunteer for) - and that person can not be a developer!
I like your posting cozzi It
I like your posting cozzi
It is rather Irononic. We have all these great tools, i.e, taxonomy, which makes Drupal a first choice CMS for finding and tracking information,etc.
Yet, the tools in Drupal are not being used efficiently within the Drupal site to adequately train users.
Training and teaching, new and learning users is pretty well ignored with all CMS.
The extremely competent users and developers just don't have the time to answer postings, again and again.
We have theme contests... why not have best trainer/teacher contests.
It would be nice to give some accolades to those who contribute so much to others with truly viable training items.
I was amazed to see all the video training in Drupal, yet the quality is so poor they're a waste of time to watch.
People making those videos need to produce media that is better quality and have work along documents for users.
This is the way people learn... show, tell and let users have guidelines to follow along. This pushes all the education buttons for better learning.
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The Youtube quality of videos just don't cut it. If you can't do something right with the standard stuff you've gotta do it different.
How I did it
How I did it
I would love to have such a forum category placed right below the General Discussion Category.
This way People could share how they did things on their drupal sites.
An inter-active learning tool for all Drupal users, from newbies to the pros.
This type of information would be extremely helpful. It would be a work in progress and not some empirical white paper document that explains from just one person's point of view how to do something.
Example posting:
How I built my downloads section
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Then the originating poster would provide an explanation of the step by step process how he/she built downloads section on their site. I'm not talking about sharing a few ideas and links. I'm talking about a complete follow through from start to finish of the entire downloads section.
All the modules that were used, how the modules were configured, how the entry screens were prepared, the taxonomy, the content creation, any code changes, etc. The original poster would continue to reply to his/her own first message until the document was complete.
If the originating poster started the topic before he/she was finished with the project other users could also share ideas to help complete the processes to the finished project.
Users could respond and ask questions after the project was final as well on the thread topic.
Readers could follow along with the entire process and implement the same thing on their sites. This would be a very good training tool. Learn as you go kind of thing in some situations, and just having a complete process of how to do a thing in other situations.
Users would also be able to apply some of the things they learned about building a downloads section to other things they are doing on their sites.
I'm talking about a dedicated forums category - How I did it
Then all such documents would be in one very conspicuous place to all forum users.
This would be an excellent inter-active training tool among users.
It would help them to learn by interaction among Drupal users.
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I suggest this in a forums, because the lack of formal document structure and carefree style of a forums is more comfortable to users.
User responses will keep the discussions at an open informal discussion level. This way people would be more inclined to share, much more so than writing or commenting upon a formal document.
The forum category is necessary to put all this type of informal information in one place for teaching users. The purpose should be to help people learn and share How I did it
----------------------------------
I've only been responding and posting on this forums for 6 weeks, but I've read a myriad of postings where users vent frustrations with the Drupal learning processes. Daily I see new postings about how to do things and the responses are links, a few module mentions... and the poster is left to his wits.
A forums category such as this will answer a lot more questions and provide a gateway to learning not exploited on any CMS site as I recall.
There is a lot of discussion on the forums about all kinds of topics, but nothing organized specifically for informal learning among users. Learning how do things from start to finish with complete informal explanations about how things were done, with questions and answers by users.
A dedicated forum category is critical. Users will know where to go for informal education on topics of interest.
Very well thought out
I think this sort of thing would be perfect. You learn so much more from an open dialog (I did this, she did that) than you can ever learn from a book. The reason this is so is because everyone has a different learning style and everyone has a different teaching/writing style. In an open dialog one has a much higher chance of reading something from someone that taps into their mindset.
Now, the big problem.
I've suggested this sort of thing over and over, so who's attention do we have to get so that drupal.org takes the ramping up of new users just as serious as they do a strong flexible code base.
I recently asked (again for 6.x, but I also brought this up when 5.x was in beta) why it is that the the "Quick Links" of the next version does not include a link to a "What's new, What's changed.) Not surprising I found that there is such a page http://groups.drupal.org/node/8059 but when I asked why it was not pushed into the Quicklinks field I was told that the page was still under development (but I thought 6.x itself was still under shakeout?) This is very hard for me to understand because I come from a information presentation background and it would just seem logical to me that the first thing one would ask about a new version is - what does this new version do?
So, I digress, who do we contact to make this real - to play a role - to make it happen! I'm certain that a project extension such as this will uncover the many many perls within the Drupal project that many know exist but simply don't have the time or energy to ferret them out.
First of all, I apologize if
First of all, I apologize if at any moment i sound like I am fighting, I always have that problem. Believe me, I am on your side.
Now, I am not saying that you should write the articles your self, but you might coordinate. I am not saying that it is easier either, but it is a good start, I don't have time to do those things my self, I wished I could, I really do.
A little propaganda for my self, I started a project a while ago for Open Source Documentation at http://wosdp.org, I am tired of finding old dated information on the http://tldp.org, so I started my own wiki and now I am porting those tutorials there, where anyone can edit and contribute, I have had some feedback from the original authors of the tutorials, but most of them are too busy to continue with the projects. And yes, it is overwhelming, it is A LOT of work, I am still in a very early stage of the project, and I don't even know if it will ever be accepted by the community, but also as a recommendation for you, it really helps, that is my way of screaming to the world 'PLEASE UPDATE THOSE TUTORIALS, THEY ARE REALLY GOOD AND HELPFUL BUT OUT OF DATE !!!!'
I can see that you have been posting in the forums, great, I applause that, I really do. That is actually a very good start for everyone, I wished more people would contribute that way.
So, again, I am sorry if I sound like just trying to pick up a fight, I am not.
Thanks to everyone to contributes and helps other, keep up the good work.
Geeks Socializing
http://inTribu.com
Funny thing about the
Funny thing about the english language - very aggressive. LOL
I thought nothing ill of you or your posting.
...
We encourage people to update documentation here in the handbooks on drupal.org. We have quite a few people who have rights to do this.
http://drupal.org/node/14279
We encourage people to create documentation. All registered users on drupal.org can create and add handbook pages.
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
Just the kind of thing we
Just the kind of thing we don't need.
sepeck you said,
We need a very relaxed "not so formal" way to discuss this kind of thing. When you start mentioning documents you scare off 99/100ths of your users. People do not want to take the effort to write long-winded documents. Basically, they don't want to be scrutinized for writing something that may not be just right or get blasted by commentors. People are much more responsive to informal discussions developed in forums. That is why forums are the most popular discussion method on the web... not blogs.
People contribute to forums differently and don't have any formal expectations from the content. Readers are not interested in your spelling, grammatical errors or underdeveloped explanations. You can say what you say and will not be criticized by readers. LOL
Forums are great!
...
Well, we'll just have to disagree on this subject. Which is fine, we don't have to agree on everything. In any case, the forums exist and they provide support and information. They are just not the desired final home for documentation within drupal.org.
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
I have to agree with
I have to agree with domineaux on this one, I know that there must be a filter, but you are actually scaring people away, I hope I will be up to the task of creating a good module some day or at least a profile, but when I read what it takes for you just to consider even attempting to maybe looking at what I have done http://drupal.org/cvs-account I have to admit, I am just forgetting the idea to contribute that way. And it is a shame, because I am sure that there could be a loooot more support if it was a little more open.
Geeks Socializing
http://inTribu.com
Creating a modules is not the end all...
Feloescoto,
Please don't make it sound as though if you've not created a module you've not made a valuable contribution. Herein lies the point of this thread. You can have the most powerful module in the world but if it lacks hacks like us plowing our way through it to make it shine, the world may (will) never know it existed. Let's face it, many people come to Drupal because they see a Drupal site and say "woow!" I want to do that!
The point being, documentation (and documenters) is (are) just as important to the success of a project as the code (and coders), and since Open Source projects are meant to foster an "OPEN", flexible and a constantly changing piece of collaborative artwork every respective project should also offer the same dynamic with regards to the documentation of the project.
So - how do we make "something" happen
So, does this conversation die here? Is it possible that we make some addition to the drupal project to embrace some of these ideas?
...
Well, I am one of the main folks he would have to convince and the original poster has declared it's a waste of time to work with me. I had thought we were having a discussion but the original poster seems to have thought otherwise.
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
Show must go on!!! My
Show must go on!!!
My ideas:
There could be a repository of non-official contributions for modules/themes/profiles/translations/etc. Just create a new content type with the required attributions to upload this files. Each individual would be free to create this modules/themes/profiles/translations/etc If one of this modules/themes/profiles/translations/etc becomes highly accepted and complies with the standards that you require, you can 'invite' him/her/it to the 'official' repository. This would even release you from reading 'Motivations' and saying NO to people, which should not be very pretty for you or the possible contributors.
If you don't want to host this, believe me, there is A LOT of people here willing to do so, starting by me. All you would need to do is create an official link from Drupal to the new space.
As per documentation, I don't see a wiki here, at least I didn't find it, and it could work the same way, it would be non official documentation, when you see something good, you just pull from it, and if you want, you can invite the person to be an official documenter.
Finally, if you want to encourage people to comply with the standards, you may create an award, it does not have to be an economic recognition, just a project/theme/whatever of the month/week/year. We are programmers and web masters, this would be huge cv or attraction for customers. If you already have this award, your should put it on the front page 24/7.
You have over 2000 contributed modules, and even more themes, this is people screaming LET ME HELP!!! all you have to do, is provide a more friendly and easier way to do it.
I am sure, that there are A LOT of lets say non-wanted contributors out there, and that is way you have so strong filters, but you may be going a little too far.
Well, I hope this helps.
Geeks Socializing
http://inTribu.com
...
As to documentation.
The Contribute tab leads to Helping with documentation page with several methods for helping. Lots of people contribute and a lot of people have rights to edit existing pages. TO add pages, all you need is a drupal.org account. You can right now without any additional rights beyond having a drupal.org account add useful how to information in the handbooks. The barrier to contribute documentation is have a drupal.org user account. The barrier to edit most documentation pages is to just ask. I am not sure how much lower we could go there.
If you want to host your module or them on drupal.org, the steps are listed
Contribute tab >> Helping with development. We have just about 900 people with CVS access to contribute modules and themes.
The show is going on.
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
How about an Implementation link within....
Is it possible to add both a Documentation link and an Implementation link on the module project page? The goal would be to have a space where the rough "how it works" doc for the module would be posted right in the module section. Someone light on PHP skills, but strong on application skills (like myself) would be more than happy to join many module teams to support the doc link. Next, the Implementation link would allow people to brag a bit about how they used the module (and allow others to ask questions about how they would like to use it).
And lastly, I think when you post anything to a module project section you should be automatically subscribed to that modules section. If you are asking for help you should be willing to give it when can, but you can't give help unless you know what's being asked. I know the link is there, but I'll bet few see it or remember to click it - I know I didn't know it existed for months and now I always forget to click it!
You want a hard filter, I think anyone using a module should be forced to answer an occasional question just to keep their module operational :-) Maybe even send a little guilt alert - you've only answered 1 member question in the past x days. Hey, it's all give and take in my book. Besides, if you prod people to answer questions they learn better.
Cheers!
Cozmo
...
The project pages already have provisions to link to documentation. See the CCK project page for an example. It's a field labeled 'Documentation' with a spot to put the link. There is also a spot for the author to add an 'example' link.
If the module contributor does not create online documentation and/or no one contributes it, then it often will remain blank. There is no requirement for module contributors to provide documentation. It is in their own best interest to, as it will often reduce support queue question and often lead to a higher adoption of the module, but is purely voluntary. Now, others then the module owner can create such documentation, then file an issue in the projects page for the module owner to update their projects description. We try to encourage people to collaborate with module owners on this but have more need then people doing this.
Project module and what it should and should not do is a far more complex issue. It's a very complex and important tool on drupal.org. Far beyond the scope of this thread and work has been ongoing for quite some time to improve it by a very very few people.
http://groups.drupal.org/node/6180
http://groups.drupal.org/node/6186
http://groups.drupal.org/node/7191
http://groups.drupal.org/node/8102
http://groups.drupal.org/node/1830
http://groups.drupal.org/node/4970
The really interesting thing about Drupal is that the speed with which it is developed is an illusion. A lot of the stuff that is coming out now, is stuff that the ground work was laid more then one or two years ago. It's the suddenness of the results sometimes that fool you. :)
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
the real problem isn't docs
> Six (6) weeks I've spent working to learn Drupal.
There's the real problem, right there. A few months ago I spent every waking hour of my week-long vacation trying to flesh out a mash-up website for a school; 18 hours a day for 7 days reading docs and playing with test installations of 'normal drupal' and 'DrupalEd'. At the end of the seven days I was no further forward in determining what it could actually do for the school, or how it could be achieved (whatever 'it' was) - I could sort of see how parts of it worked, but I couldn't imagine how the overall picture could/would fit together to enable the students and teachers to use drupal in a socially educational way - everything about the test sites was non-intuitive, plain ugly and/or simply didn't work. I remember most of the seventh day was spent trying (and ultimately failing) to simply move a column in the theme from the right side to the left.
Compare that to the site I set up for the same school two years ago with e107 - I had the site themed from scratch (actually an exact port from a static template they had) and all set-up, ready to go within 48 hours of first stumbling upon the e107 website, complete with gallery, forum, news, navigation menus and article management. Even Mambo was easier than Drupal to get at least something up and running in a few days, even if it wasn't flexible afterwards.
This is actually the first time I've been back to these drupal forums since then. I'm still drawn to it, solely because drupal seems to be based on a more modern organic, social-networking model (which could potentially benefit an educational environment, rather than being centred around the older 'forum and articles' model). I also hear many people saying it's the 'best' (although I can't see it myself - even the showcase sites I've visited seem clumsy and counter-intuative regarding structure and navigation of content).
Personally I think Drupal's templating and its hierarchically 'stacked' modules are absolutely awful. It is these fundamental flaws in the system that make the learning curve so steep, not lack of documents. I said all this back then, before I gave up the first time, and got somewhat attacked for my criticisms; no doubt I won't be spared harsh words this time either. But I thought I'd give my opinion for what it's worth - more docs are not going to solve the problem; Drupal is just very overly-complex and convoluted. Maybe that helps with flexibility in the long run for professional developers, but it certainly does not encourage anyone else.
May be less is more
I've been working on my site for 40+ weeks. I've come a long way and can say that some of the people in this specific post helped me. Also there are definitely gems in the forums, but it's hard to get at them. Lots of drupal speak and walls of words. Remeber we scan content on line...
One thing that i think every module needs is a drop dead description of what the beastie does. I will start to do this. I guess I can just send text to the module maintainer.
I think though that newer users do have things to contribute, so when I go live with my site I will share these. It may bore some but be of great value to new comers. Maybe a forum just for new comers is warranted too.
Thanks for listening. Domineaux, the pain is worth the gain, really.........
Trying too hard
Maybe you're just trying too hard to work with Drupal. You don't have to know every single tiny bit of information about it in order to have a functioning website. I've had Drupal for months and only in the last two or three have I been able to finally understand concepts such as Taxonomy and views to help make my site look more professional and clean.
When I first started, I tried to read the handbooks but found they were too technical and complex for me as a beginner to really be able to use. So I set to just build content in my site and let it evolve over time. You say you've spent 6 weeks working to learn Drupal, but how many of those weeks did you spend just using Drupal?
_0_
http://kricket.110mb.com
you can't do that with larger sites
> So I set to just build content in my site and let it evolve over time.
You can probably do that if it is a personal website, starting with no content and evolving over lots of time - experimentation eventually developing into the actual live site. However, if you're designing for an organisation, you've got to be able to piece it all together in the design stage, and have a clear idea of 'what' does 'which' job and how. You need to know the strengths and weaknesses of each part, and plan ahead to minimise the weaknesses. But Drupal is so convoluted, it is impossible for a new user to do this, yet is IS possible with several other CMS.
> I been able to finally understand concepts such as Taxonomy and views
Exactly... IMO you shouldn't have to 'finally understand' the core features of a CMS.
To me, that indicates something is conceptually wrong with it.
Views isn't a "core" feature
Views isn't a "core" feature and taxonomy is optional; at least that's what it looks like from the admin side of things.
Of course for larger sites that need everything to work the same way from the beginning, it's hard to just "evolve" the site over time, but I don't think Drupal is impossible to use as a beginner. I chose not to take the time to read things about it and just went with the evolution path. Once I got more familiar with basic features, expanding and using more difficult things was easy. I was trying to say that just getting familiar with Drupal should make it easier to use. If you set your mind to one piece of making the site at a time, it should just all fall together.
Views is hard to use, but if I ever took the time to read about it instead of just messing around with it, it'd probably make more sense to me. I like to do things the hard way I guess.
_0_
http://kricket.110mb.com