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By Ian Douglas on
Hi all,
I don't mean to put people on the defensive, or create an argument, but seems utterly patent to me that Joomla templates are infinitely more aesthetically refined than the available Drupal themes. Indeed, Drupal looks positively awful compared, while I believe -- or hope -- that Drupal is actually a much more robust system, given certain needs.
Is there any reason why Drupal is so far behind in design aesthetics? Is there any code-based reason?
Alternatively, does anyone have recommendations of where to purchase high-end, exacting Drupal themes? One extra thing that I find strange: Joomla templates, even beautiful commercial templates, seem to sell for $30 whereas to get a Drupal theme developed I'm being quoted anything from $500 to $1000+. What's up with that??
Indeed, in general, I have to say, many Drupal development companies I've seen seem to taking huge amounts of money -- or asking huge amounts -- for really something that a novice (like me) is able to achieve alone.
Opinions? Suggestions?
These are my assessments after two months research, and it surprises me.
best wishes,
ian
Comments
Offer and demand
That's a simple question of offer and demand, not of design skill.
There is currently a shortage of drupal developers having free times for nice free Drupal themes, or for commercial templates.
/*_*/
http://www.xmacinfo.com
Drupal is all about
Drupal is all about substance. It's really a robust framework for complex web applications, rather than just a content management system like Joomla. Nothing against Joomla, it has its own positives and negatives but it just can't stand up to Drupal's scalability. There just hasn't been much focus on designing actual themes in the Drupal community. The backend portion of the theme system in Drupal is absolutely amazing IMO and allows for a lot of really cool things with all the theme engines available. But themes as the end user sees it is definitely lacking. I think a lot of Drupal users make their own themes rather than use the free templates available like most do with Joomla and WordPress.
A little word of advice. If you want a custom theme for Drupal, just get a plain old XHTML/CSS template made, and then convert it to Drupal yourself. It will be much cheaper that way, and it's surprisingly easy with all the great documentation on PHPTemplate Engine, and I think you'll have fun learning how the theme system works. At least I did :)
yep, I was thinking of this .....
Thanks so much for your informative reply.
Thanks for that heads up on that in particular. I was more or less thinking about how this might be done.
One idea (and I saw a couple of posts on this on these forums) was to port a template from Joomla. There's no way in the timeframe I have (and given that I'm not in anyway a developer or designer, though I wish I had time to learn) that I could do this, but I might be able to find help to do so.
But I have an idiot's question: would a XHTML/CSS template include all the necessary fields to provide, after conversion, all the elements Drupal relies on? If so, in effect, I could use any XHTML/CSS design that I like? In particular I was wondering about the admin level. Many of the users on my site will have inner access, as it were, and I'd really like to provide everyone with the same aesthetic, throughout levels of user.
Any more clues would be greatly appreciated!
.... um, you lose me a little. I'm only a couple of months into looking at Drupal, so I'm unfamiliar with a lot of terminology. Could you explain just a little bit more?
Thanks again :)
best wishes,
ian
But I have an idiot's
I think you can answer that one yourself, now you've put your finger on it.
If you have a blog-machine with only half-a-dozen variables ... You can get a good theme up in a day or two.
If you want a theme which will look perfect when 500 optional features are on, and perfect when they are all off ... you'll be there forever.
So...
Most theme designs that have been built under Drupal have been tuned to the clients requirements. As much as we try to separate form from function, eventually you've got to stop and focus on the result.
So ... the themes that have been made end up useful only to one combination of modules for one combination of features. And understandably, there's not much point in releasing them back, because support for such a theme would be just silly.
.dan.
How to troubleshoot Drupal | http://www.coders.co.nz/
.dan. is the New Zealand Drupal Developer working on Government Web Standards
thanks for your input!
thanks Dan, this explains it in a way I can very much understand
Converting an XHTML/CSS
Converting an XHTML/CSS template is really quite easy. Every Drupal theme has two basic components, a stylesheet (style.css) and a basic HTML template which every page follows in terms of structure, (page.tpl.php). You can litterally copy and paste any combination of HTML and CSS you want into these files and as long as the ids and classes match up you will get an output that resembles a theme. This is the basic outline of your theme, but there's A LOT more you can with it then that.
I suggest you read the Theme Developer's Guide, especially the part about PHPTemplate Engine. What I mean by the backend is the "engine" that powers the theme system for Drupal. With PHPTemplate Engine for example, you can define block regions wherever you want, and by default it comes with lots of variables you can use to pull certain information out of the database. All of that is explained in the PHPTemplate documentation. It really quite simple.
I think the whole template
I think the whole template thing is blown out of proportion. I work for a professional web development company and when a client comes to have a web site designed, I can never just slap on a template place their logo and be on my way. A client has specific needs and a corporate identity that needs to be followed to the letter. You just cant beat drupal's flexibility for theming, If you willing to take the appropriate time and work through it.
--
When God is with you, who can stand against you?
thanks for your input
I have two problems: I live on global South wages and so simply don't have the money to pay for a fully developed theme and architecture. One Drupal-specializing company I looked at online asks $25k for full theme and architecture development. Second, I'm on an insane timeframe. I have about three weeks max. I wish I could change that, but I can't .......
insha'allah a miracle happens.
best wishes,
ian
Yep.. thats a bit tight, if
Yep.. thats a bit tight, if you are unsure of the inner workings. But once you get into the flow of it, one can bang out a fresh template from scratch in two days..
Well there are some good links below that you should have a look at and the other great thing our community is great to get help and fast. Good luck brother
--
When God is with you, who can stand against you?
thanks :)
thanks :)
Tutorials on porting XHTML template to Drupal
see at http://dudertown.com/?q=node/2 the last 2 videocasts.
great!
I'm sure that will be very useful! thanks! :)
anyone?
I'd be interested to a see a few examples of people's Drupal sites that are based on converted XHTML/CSS templates ......
Have a look at
www.roopletheme.com.
A slow burner at the moment, but styles are now totally CSS based, every bit as flexible now as Joomla ones, and quality is getting better exponentially. As a former rockettheme subscriber on Joomla, There is nothing else that I would want from this, plus it is free!
...
Joomla is predicable. Drupal is not.
There are any number of ways to implement any number of different sites in Drupal and many of the methods and assumptions used will dictate the theme design. Drupal core has multi-user blogs, forums, polls, flexible content types, blocks, flexible regions, etc in core so if you want to really comprehensively design a generic Drupal theme and contribute back, you have more to consider.
Also, we have been GPL open source for a very long time. Drupal has been a tool for developers and site implementors to build and implement sites in. Most of this has been custom/semi-custom work to specification. So the little commercial after market that grew up around Joomla has not grown around Drupal. There are a few shops starting do do this now though. http://www.roopletheme.com/
A number of the themes are ported wordpress or OSWD themes. The Andreas ones are popular.
In order, go read, then watch, then read these links.
http://www.blkmtn.org/Quick-and-dirty-OSWD-theme-to-Drupal
http://drupaldojo.com/lesson/theming-like-a-pro
http://www.gomediazine.com/tutorials/create-a-killer-band-site-in-drupal...
So if you think, you a novice, could implement better themes, then I challenge you to do so and contribute them back to Drupal for the community to enjoy. It's not that I don't think you can't, it's that I think you can and would like to see more themes.
I think you are underestimating or undervaluing the work that a good, solid custom theme actually costs. It's not just about the theme, it's about the site the theme will be on information architecture and matching your assumptions with the designers realities. Also, themes can be more integrated into Drupal itself and that can be more work, though it does end up with a site that is yours, and not a slightly modified cookie cuter solution that has a few graphics and colors changed.
-Steven Peck
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Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
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Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
thanks for your input
Thanks for your great post!
There's no way that I could better myself, but then I'm not a designer nor a developer. Ask me about the history of disciplinary systems of power in the modern era, however, and I'll blow your hair back.
Great URLs! Thanks!
On underestimating / undervaluing the work that a good solid custom theme entails, you may be right on the first, but $25k to develop a full customized Drupal site is rather steep as a fee to pay someone who knows what they're doing. I studied 14 years to get my three degrees, and I get paid $1000 a month. But then I do teach in occupied Palestine. And I don't do it for the money.
Sure, I'm certain that there is a lot that goes on below the hood, as it were. But for people with real experience, how hard can it be? Designing or developing new modules: sure, I imagine this is heavy work. I really don't mean to get on anyone's nerves here, and yes, people with skills should be paid appropriately, but on one site I saw the person's general salary level was $80-100k a year for web design and development. That's more than any full professor I know, at least in my field!
Anyway, no need to get into all that. I does appear that Drupal development is quite expensive for an open source framework. I sort of thought the point was to head in the direction of leveling the information gap between companies that can pay big bucks and individuals and small communities that can't. If the Drupal community could, at some point, attract serious designers and provide more refined out-of-the-box themes, I'm sure many more people would be able to run with it and use the remarkable tools that potentially come with it.
Module installation and tweaking is not that hard, especially if clear instructions are given. But for people like me, with barely a minute to breathe in the life, it's the look that is the major black eye at present.
Anyway, again, I appreciate greatly your comments.
best wishes,
ian
Different economies,
Different economies, different price points. There are school teachers in my area that make more than what you listed.
Quality developers and designers are expensive. Both disciplines are harder than you appear to think they are. The Drupal community has attracted 'serious designers' and developers who have donated a significant body of work back to the community.
Drupal, as an open source framework, is not expensive, unless you consider free expensive. Implementing and customizing Drupal is not expensive if you do it yourself. Like all software, if you need to hire a professional to do it for you it could get expensive. You could look for expertise in less expensive markets to see if you can find the assistance you need at a price point that more suits your budget/expectations.
You are not unique in being very busy. A lot of people are. A lot of people here, from whom you are asking for more and better free work, are very busy too.
Good luck.
sure .........
I meant only that I have no time to learn a whole new skill, just as I'm sure developers are too busy to teach three classes in political theory in addition to what they already do. Fair enough, no?
Yes, but I wasn't
Yes, but I wasn't complaining that your political theory classes were not sufficient for my needs, that your presentation was 'inferior' to the classes that Harvard offers, or that I wanted it free or cheaper from you. Fair enough?
And I wasn't saying that you should make the time to learn a new skill set, just that everyone is busy too, including those who you expect more from for free. You are looking a gift horse in the mouth, a classic American idiom, when your complaining about work and help that people have given to the world for free.
......
Well, you haven't taken my classes and have no reason to. But if you did and you complained I'd listen and adapt. That's called feedback and self-improvement. And on the free aspect, many students over the years have audited my classes free.
At any rate, the point is not personal so let's not make it so. I think it's perfectly legitimate to observe two things about Drupal: 1) out-of-the-box the aesthetics are inferior to Joomla; 2) the price of getting something adequate is very high; very few companies I can find focus on producing high-end themes below the price of $2000, even ones that would be non-exclusive.
People should be rewarded for their efforts, though we all do things for free, and some of us mostly for free. I don't expect "more for free", though in general I'm sympathetic with Marx. But I think there's a real gap in the Drupal field, and it's centered on design.
best wishes,
ian
...
Most of what I wanted to say has been said already but I did want to mention that $25K for a theme _is_ expensive. I think you'll find most are cheaper than that. Part of the problem is that more than just design gets rolled into making a theme. If that theme includes complex code that's more a module than a theme, that makes a difference. For literally just a theme, mostly html/css, and very little in the way of code, you should be able to find someone willing to do it for < $1000. I suspect you aren't going to find a custom Joomla theme for that $30 either. They can sell that cheap because of volume. Hiring someone to make a completely custom Joomla theme would cost you much more than that.
Michelle
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See my Drupal articles and tutorials or come check out life in the Coulee Region.
I think that price was for
I think that price was for the site.
...and I still need to register
yes ......
yes, that price was for an entire site from the ground up .......
Thanks for links
Thanks for links.
apples and oranges
I agree with the basic premis that there is nothing yet in the Drupal world to compare with the current state of the best general-purpose Joomla templates out there. The latest works by YooTheme and RocketTheme are mighty impressive.
I won't bother with another useless discussion about wether Drupal is better or worse than Joomla... there's a hundered threads on this forum (and elsewhere) that cover that territory. But I will point out the significant difference in the way the these two systems are being used in the market.
There are tons of sites out there using an off-the-shelf Joomla template and the out-of-the-box Joomla capabilities. You can build a really nice looking site using Joomla and a generic template. If that solution meets your needs and desires, then you can do a lot worse that to go that way. If you're trying to develop a site for a dentist office or a small non-profit organization, a general-purpose Joomla template might very well be the right answer. Such sites are relatively simple and inexpensive to put together.
But if you want unique capabilities and custom features, or a unique look to present your own corporate branding, then a general-purpose template probably won't suffice. People looking for something beyond an off-the-shelf solution that looks just like every other site using this same off-the-shelf solution are necessarily going to have to invest more time and/or more money to arrive at that solution. This is true regardless of the platform you choose.
If you've found someone who tells you that they can and will develop a complex custom theme design for Joomla, Drupal, or any other CMS for a hundred bucks, then I suggest that you're probably talking to either an amatuer or a liar. Either way, I bet you'll be disappointed in the results. My typical client site takes between 25 and 60 hours of theme work. Larger sites with more complex requirements can take a lot more work than that. And I'm regularly called in to clean up the mess left by someone who claimed they could do the work for some ridiculously small fee.
I strongly believe that the best Drupal themes out there are every bit the equal of the best work on any other CMS platform. The difference is that in the Drupal world, the best themes are custom jobs crafted for the specific needs of a single site. I'm not talking about themes that you download from drupal.org. I'm talking about the themes in use at www.observer.com, www.popsci.com, www.teamsugar.com, www.pagesix.com (before they shelved the project today!), www.terminus1525.ca, and hundreds of other sites that have invested in a custom theme.
The professional Drupal development community is largely focused on custom sites like these. If you've got a site that supports tens of thousands of users a day like www.43folders.com or www.dooce.com or www.empowher.com (shameless self-promotional plug for some of my own client work), then you should be prepared to pay for the work that goes into creating such sites.
Seriously, if you've got a two hundred dollar budget and you just want a decent looking site, then join one of the Joomla template clubs and go that route. There are some really attractive sites out there that are doing just that. But we're comparing apples and oranges.
Thank you so much .......
Thank you so much for your thoughtful reply. I really appreciate you taking the time to write.
In reality, I have a very difficult project to realize, the essence of which I have explained here, here, here and here.
I need the extensive capabilities of Drupal. I want to really test how far IT can go in helping the progressive community. The essence of my project (collectively writing a legal memorandum online; providing a secure war crimes repository; being a focus for organizing and building momentum in the antiwar movement) leave me with no choice but to stick with Drupal. But the nature of my initiative — to prosecute the US for genocide — leaves me no room for aesthetic error. It is controversial enough without falling down, or not being taken seriously, simply because of presentation.
Because the initiative I am building will face all kind of obstacles, and because it is urgent, I need to do the best I can. If I had a house I'd sell it for this, but I do not. In reality, I'm not a wealthy person; I live in the global South on global South wages. Fund raising is also not really possible in the timeframe I have, and it also complicates things. I want to present to my network of fellow activists something that is solid, at which time we can build donations towards the legal side of things. On the technical side, I try to cover this entirely myself.
My whole budget is for sure in the low thousands. But I will pay that, happily, to get to where I need to. I try to assess now how best to get to where I need, and to assess the capacities of the few who responded to my volunteer and paid service calls.
I hope I can progress. It's a bit nerve racking, but the occupation has denied me of sleep for more than three years anyway.
Thanks again for your reply.
salam,
Dr Ian Douglas
International Initiative to Prosecute US Genocide in Iraq | www.USgenocide.org
The BRussells Tribunal | www.brusselstribunal.org
Outcome
The original poster just went with WordPress apparently...
affordable High end drupal themes
Hi Ian
I agree with everyone here. Drupal is more powerfull than Joomla. Here are some discounted, high end drupal templates (themes) that can easily be changed to fit your needs. http://www.tornado-templates.com/drupal-themes.php
So for about $50 and one more day of work in customization you can have a really great drupal website.
I hope it helps
Adrian