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Curious about rates
andrewbadera - July 16, 2008 - 22:30
Hi all-
New to Drupal here, working on a Drupal-driven site for a new client.
The rates you all seem to be discussing for Drupal work seem pretty low, in the grand scheme of software consulting. I'm curious if this forum suffers from the same sort of lowball rates you see on rentacoder and similar sites?
More so, I'm curious to know if people are doing paid Drupal consulting that's not discussed here, and what sort of rates or project size you see? I develop software on a variety of platforms, I'm just trying to figure out if emphasizing Drupal experience has any redeemable value, or if it's a loss-leader at best?
Thanks-
--Andy Badera
It all depends
Andy,
I have been doing this work for several years and I have trouble getting above the $40/hour rate.
Sometimes for very nice people I work for less.
It all depends.
Lately, it seems that recruiters and IT staffing agencies are getting an increased demand for Drupal developers, but still at rates $35-40/hour (at least it is more certain)
~are you netsperienced?
Thanks for the
Thanks for the reply.
$40/hour's fine as a W2 through an agency. That translates into $80,000 or a little less a year as a fulltime contractor. That translates into $70-$80/hour as an independent in midsize markets.
Most agencies are getting 20%-50% on top of your rate, typically plus some sort of signing or conversion bonus.
I guess I'm curious what people are seeing independent of agencies. Direct freelance/consulting work. I'm incorporated myself, and a very large majority of my work is direct consulting these days.
It's discouraged to discuss
It's discouraged to discuss rates as there can be legal complications, I believe. I don't know the details, see here though http://drupal.org/node/86532
But I would say $40/hr is quite low.
Having conversations about
Having conversations about rates does not constitute price fixing. That's a myth.
Well, I never did say that,
Well, I never did say that, simply that there's often ruckus about the whole mention of it. Besides, I'd guess most busy consultants have no need to frequent the board, and so there are probably a lot of misconceptions by any answers you would receive.
You didn't say that
You didn't say that explicitly, but that's where that line of conversation goes.
You never know who might be browsing the board, and any opinion or input is still valid, if not representative.
That´s a joke, Forget it
That´s a joke, Forget it and relax.
.
I don't think this forum is good to judge by. A lot of time it's the same folks responding to every post with insanely low rates. Quality Drupal developers are in very high demand right now and can charge a decent rate. The best way to get work is to give to the community and get visible. If people see you out there helping and doing, they'll come to you looking to hire you.
Michelle
--------------------------------------
See my Drupal articles and tutorials or come check out life in the Coulee Region.
Maybe so, but all input is
Maybe so, but all input is still valid.
I'm not looking for work though -- I'm pretty well established in my locale, word of mouth and other networking keeps me pretty busy. I'm just trying to understand if eventually positioning myself as a Drupal expert will be worthwhile, or if it will just be inviting low-margin less-than-exciting work. I don't want to invest months in Drupal only to find I should have been focusing on .NET 3.0/3.5 or RoR stuff instead.
I say you are price
I say you are price fixing... If you have been consulting for so long why would our rates matter? You can charge what you want - our input shouldn't matter what you charge your Drupal client.
===
Elvis McNeely
Drupal services: http://www.elvisblogs.org/drupal
Good for you. What does my
Good for you. What does my first post clearly state? My intent is "is it worth advertising Drupal experience or is it simply going to be a loss-leader?"
If you failed English, or Business 101, I guess I feel sorry for you, but neither fact changes my clearly stated intent.
"Is it worth advertising"?
"Is it worth advertising"? You are coming to a community of 200,000+ and asking if you should advertise and sell drupal services? Why would you ask us that? Would we say "no"? Of course not. If you knew Drupal, it's flexibility and power, you wouldn't have to ask a question like that.
Advertise and charge how you see fit. There is no reason to ask what our hourly rates are. Your client wants quality and to know that his service provider knows what they are doing...
===
Elvis McNeely
Drupal services: http://www.elvisblogs.org/drupal
Obviously you're a big fan
Obviously you're a big fan of Drupal. Put that aside, and read the entire statement, don't cherrypick for the sake of posting argumentative replies.
In the entire context of what I'm asking (which has been quite thoroughly answered by several people other than yourself, thanks @ them) my question makes perfect sense, and this is the perfect place to ask it.
Having watched this forum
Having watched this forum and worked pretty much full-time with Drupal for nearly 2 years, I have this to offer...
Just like in any market... If you want to charge high rates you better have a high level of skill in that niche.
If your Drupal experience and product justifies high rates, and you have the drive to go get the jobs, then yes, it's absolutely worth it. And there are definitely developers in the Drupal world that can justify high rates. If your experience or your product only warrants low-ball rates, then you either learn to improve quickly, or you fail. Or you continue to moonlight and learn in your mom's basement like I did 10 years ago. Unfortunately the failures do occasionally take clients down with them, but that might indicate inexperienced clients. Hiring a software consultant is not like buying produce at the grocery store.
I do think there are some international economic factors at play, but that seems to work itself out in the chatter. Some people will deal with a geographic, cultural, or language barrier and some will not.
You'll also notice that people come here looking for help with something simple (so they think) and hire the $20/hour guy. A week later they're back looking for someone new, and I bet their budget is bigger this time. I like it when someone hires me after reading the forum and decides that low rates are not worth the trouble. And my rate is still relatively low.
So... Get in where you fit in...
Rates depend on quality, market demand and continuity factor
Rates depend on quality of developer, market demand and whether the developer has a track record of not disappearing or dropping the client without giving proper notice. Mostly it depends on these parameters as I posted on http://drupal.org/node/193010
I have seen companies charging $5/hr all the way to $175/hr providing Drupal services.
Given the current global economic turmoil, in my personal opinion the rates are headed downwards and may stabilize at average of $40/hr Corp to Corp and even lower for individual hire. While on the other side rapid adoption in Enterprise segment can push the rates higher.
One thing is certain, Drupal is going to continue to lead in innovation and many more developers are getting their grip in Drupal all over the world. Those who have unique offerings will also charge premium rates.
Roshan
Gloscon Solutions Inc
Open Source Web 2.0 Development Company
T : 323.319.3609 (US)
Skype : bpocanada
Gloscon: Email : sales @ | Gloscon.com | Portfolio | Youtube> | Drupal Themeing | Drupal SEO
Training/Incubation/Dedicated Resources : OpenKick.com
Are you attending Drupal Camp India ? http://drupalcamp08.drupalindia.in
Excellent reply, thanks! I
Excellent reply, thanks!
I too fear we're going to see price pressure on rates with the economy ... $40 C2C seems pretty gosh-darn low however. That's the equivalent of, doing a simple consulting vs. salary conversion, assuming 50% of typical working hours as billable, of $40,000/year ... that kind of rate would make me hesitate to emphasize Drupal. The same way I hesitate to emphasize any sort of web design or strictly-web development.
My focus is in infrastructure ... enterprise ... SOA ... I don't expect to see a _lot_ of price pressure there, since they're typically necessities, not niceties, and it's often pretty easy to show ROI ... but I'm certainly looking to advertise as broad a set of offerings as possible. Any work is almost always better than no work; having no problem filling billable hours right now, but next week, six months from now, who knows.
Tighter Contracts and Due Diligence on Clients
Just to add bit more.. as you are more in providing services, you may also want to have a due diligence on clients. While you rightly said that many clients don't see the amount of hours that one puts in a site - that's why its important that you keep time sheets and track everything.
Before you sign a client, please do due diligence and have tight contract terms. We even put a clause in the contract that if client fails in payment, we have right on code as well as claim the ownership of the domain for which the work was done.
Make sure that you have full specs ( layouts for all pages, roles definition and URL structure) before you work. On Infrastructure side you must check first who is going to set up CVS, backup processes, provide 24x7 application monitoring, upgrades, what is included and not.
Every hour matters today in the fast moving world. And with Open Source people have started seeing the benefits but they think its darn cheap - which is a myth. Sometimes you get in contracts on loose terms and implied things and then you end up providing lot of free goodies. This hurts your topline and bottom line.
For everyone who provides Drupal services, its important that your agreements in place and you qualify the client as much as they qualify you.
Roshan
Planning to attend Drupal Camp in India? Visit http://drupalcamp08.drupalindia.in
Full specs? At the start of
Full specs? At the start of the project? That either implies paid analysis or an extremely good technical BA on the client side or somebody's dreaming ...
That's why I work iteratively and in increments. Certain aspects of Agile philosophies and methodologies are key to any sort of technically-oriented work. And contracts are worded to reflect that. I haven't had a client complain yet, and it's put a smile on the face of some. You deliver more value, more flexibly and in-line with changing needs and priorities.
Full Specs... That is why
Full Specs... That is why some drupal shops charge $1000/day or $500/hour - to eliminate the risk. It really depends on the nature of the work and how much / little the client knows and can explain what they want.
Estimating time is an art, some don't care so much about it and charge an arm and a leg. Others are careful and can get a finished product within 10% of the estimated hours / budget - and charge much less. It is not uncommon for most proficient Drupalers to charge $50 - $100 per hour.
Maybe these links will guide you:
http://mydrupal.com/drupal-services?filter0=**ALL**&filter1=**ALL**
http://www.opensourcexperts.com/Index/index_html/Drupal/index.html
===
Elvis McNeely
Drupal services: http://www.elvisblogs.org/drupal
It’s so difficult to put a
It’s so difficult to put a price on knowledge and experience. Do call girls all charge the same price? … I hope not!
The price you charge is something you yourself have to come up with and is dependent on a number of variables (client, skill, experience, project … and so on). It’s more a self evaluation process and for those just starting out, they will normally start lower than they really should. As developers, we have to assume that clients are smart and with experience they will know how to choose a developer. For example, every client should know that speed and price isn’t always correlated. They should weigh in other intangibles.
It’s not to say that the market doesn’t play a big part because it always will ; but If you have something unique to offer (experience, skill sets, can chew gum & walk backwards …) then the market impact is somewhat buffered and you have a bit more freedom to set price. This applies to any market.
I guess the bottom line is that your price will fluctuate and should fluctuate based on the variables you set. A reputable call girl will always have work! And a happy client will almost always come back.
cheers
-----------------------------------------
http://www.netrift.com - Custom modules
http://ulisting.netriftsolutions.com - Drupal Real Estate Module for Drupal 6
http://drupal.org/project/friend - Social Neworking for Drupal 6
Great response, but nowhere
Great response, but nowhere close to addressing what I was asking :P
I know what I charge for other work that I do. I know what _I_ personally "can" charge. I was simply curious as to whether or not these lowball rates you see passed around this forum were representative of Drupal work as a whole, or if this forum suffers the same offshore price pressure you see on boards like rentacoder.
.
If that's what you're asking, why did you dismiss my comment where that's essentially what I said? Your posts are confusing. First you tell me that you consider the lowball rates people post on this forum to be "valid input" and now you're saying they're not. I think you're getting a lot of answers that aren't what you're looking for because your questions aren't very clear.
Michelle
--------------------------------------
See my Drupal articles and tutorials or come check out life in the Coulee Region.
As a customer.
In our current contract we pay said company approx $200/h.
The amount paid reflects the price structure of the company employed. i.e. the more senior the person we need to do the work the more they cost.
As it happens we are not very happy with the customer service so they are not long for our corporate wallet. Never use developer talk on a customer... did I really need to know what nodes and blocks are?
I do now thanks to the Drupal video (links posted else ware). But I am an IT bod for networks, really why do I want to know any of this stuff bar a simple logical and most importantly consistent system for content being added/removed. Letting your user fall into the 'meat and potatoes' of Drupal when trying to do something 'simple' (i.e. it should be simple for me but maybe a pain for the developer to setup). Is not a good thing.
They have also out bid them self’s for the site 'maintenance' at 75% the cost to building the site. (which was not cheap).
Anyway, suffice to say the rates start for a middle 'experianced' developer at around $1400/day. However, in our case they could of had the contract for say $1400 maintanace + extra for Disaster recovery and development. Thats $1400 for the odd phone call per year every year over a few years (3-5). (after the development of the site)
So in summary, I am not upset about the price, but when I pay the market rate I want a quality of service consistant with sums involved. You pay for the work being done. We did not pay for Drupal per se., we paided for the product. I think that is where your getting mixed up, the money is selling the 'product' not the code or development systems underneath.
Ironicly if they had spent a bit more time on the UI, it would of saved me having to look at drupal, and relise they can be replaced with minimum effort. Not only that but I have now done some updates (development is to grand a word) on the site which they were scheduled to be paided to do. ($200 to choose a diffrent option on a drop down menu, does not sound value for money).
So in this way you can see, maybe an extra day or two's development time would of netted them much more cash over the course of the sites life. (or even a little more give).
Sorry for ranting. And I should thank them really, as Drupal is quite intresting. I do not know what cut the developer sees from the cost per hour (nor should I).
Thanks for an excellent look
Thanks for an excellent look at this from the client side. Sorry to hear you're having a bad experience with your current provider.
$1400/day is in-line with the kind of rates we're typically charging for enterprise.NET work, so thank you for inspiring confidence that Drupal work is done at rates that make it attractive to true professionals, not just youthful sorts, living in Mom's basement, or going to college, etc. etc.
Again, sorry to hear that your current provider isn't keeping you happy.
Rates of top companies result in great product
The sites that get featured on drupal.org home page would most likely have paid rates upward of $100/hr.
Customers get what they pay for. Specialists generally get things done quicker and in the right way while novices build something that does not follow standards and usually mess it up.
We got involved in a project where a previous and well established company not having Drupal experience built a big mess doing Drupal Project by putting 9000 hours at $35/hr. We believe this project could have been done in less than 2000 hours and with multiple Drupal experts, this could have been finished in maximum 4 months. After 9 months of frustration, Client was referred to us and we had to put over 1400 hours in nearly 2 months just to get them launch the site and we did charge top rates and got them going. But even 1400 hours that we put in to write modules, fix theme issues and get the site launched did not fix all the hacks that previous company did.
Again - to answer your point, there is always a market where you can get a good value for service you provide. For clients, it is always recommended to go with experts and pay them for their expertise when you have larger project.
Roshan
http://www.gloscon.com