By prem on
Hello all:
My first experience with awarding a project from this forum has been a disaster. I had to completely reject the development work that I got after paying $800. I would not like to take names here, but, the issue I would like addressed is this. There are a number of less than skilled professionals offering services on this forum, and, many like me may burn their fingers. Can we have some certification for Drupal developers from a central body to classify them as :
1. Installers
2. Theme Developers
3. Module Developers
If certification is heavy, can we have some rating for the developers.
I thought this would help, but, I may be completely off track. Would welcome ideas.
Regards.
Prem
Comments
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Nothing replaces due diligence.
drupal.org/drupal-services is always a good place to start rather then the paid services forum. Especially if you are looking for quality work done by respected community members. Keyword here is community members. The forum is more inline with freelancers.
Drupal.org is open to the public and as such the paid services forum is open to the public.
Acquia is planning to offer
Acquia is planning to offer a certification program... see http://acquia.com/projects/wiki/yellow-jersey (unfortunately, you have to register to see that page).
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"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day.
Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." -- Lao Tzu
"God helps those who help themselves." -- Benjamin Franklin
"Search is your best friend." -- Worldfallz
If a person claims to be
If a person claims to be involved in a project, it would be worthwhile to ask them if they had client feedback for said project so that you could know the extent of their involvement where the budget exceeds 500 USD.
I believe your project required a full on Information Architect and not just a visual designer (I'm an Interaction Designer whose better applied to module interfaces so I didn't apply in your second round of weeding.)
Also, check their history in
Also, check their history in the forums. If all that they have contributed are job applications, then I wouldn't touch them.
- Corey
I would also tend to shy
I would also tend to shy away from those who continually copy and paste the exact same message on the drupal paid services board over and over! If they can't spend the time to write you an individualized message they probably won't spend much quality time working on your site either. Just my 2 cents.
Certification is very much needed
I also talked about certification at Drupal Camp India held last week in Ahmedabad with some of the community members.
Our openkick division is also looking to work in that regards.
Roshan
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Thanks for all your comments.
I think today, there is a confusion in identifying the skill sets among developers, not sure if it is deliberate or resulting from ignorance, but, it hurts a person in a hurry to outsource (like I was). For example, someone who can only do installation is happily bidding for theming projects. Similarly, someone who is good in theming is also bidding for website design. I agree with VeryMU... that nothing beats due diligence. And, I have made mental notes of a few steps. But, would make life easier if we had some benchmark.
Looks like ]certification etc will not happen in a hurry, so, due diligence is the way. I would like to work on a simple verifiable checklist after my current workload eases a bit. Would invite ideas once I have the basic version ready.
Thanks, everyone for writing in your thoughts.
Consider yourself lucky to
Consider yourself lucky to have learned the lesson cheaply.
One company I work with, before I became a partner, had spent over 6 months and (I'm told) $20,000 with a medium sized, moderately well known Drupal company, which was unable to produce a deliverable that matched the agreed upon specifications.
I myself have spent hundreds of my own money for little result based even on well-referred help.
What I do know is that tighter contracts/specs does not solve the problem. http://gettingreal.37signals.com/ch11_Theres_Nothing_Functional_about_a_...
Certification might seem to be a good solution; I don't know if it is, but it hasn't seemed to prove anything in the world of desktop systems and hardware. Many such certifications are a joke. Tests are good at identifying inside-the-box thinking, but good programmers excel at creativity and outside-the-box thinking, IMO.
Still, there's obviously a problem, but I don't know the solution. We both know throwing money at problems doesn't help. I will do the same diligence on a 'certified' developer that I do now, and I will weigh my risks probably much the same, knowing that every relationship has a degree of risk. I won't be first in line to purchase certification for myself; but then, I don't often have a shortage of work.
That may be the best certification: The developer who is too busy to accept your work is probably the one who is qualified for it. :-)
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I second that. I don't
I second that. I don't think I'll seek certification.
For example, I am also a piano technician, but I will not pay to join the PTG (piano technician's guild) because I don't need them. I am more than busy enough with my current piano clients, and I stay that way. I develop with Drupal because it's fun, and I can do it at midnight (try tuning a piano at midnight!!!). I pick the jobs I apply for and accept, and I know that I will finish the project.
Certification is good for people who know nothing about about what they need done. It also implies that a specific effort has been made in one area by the person that is certified, but it doesn't tell you anything about them as an individual (ethics, etc.).
Beyond that, there is an issue of trust, an admittedly hard thing to give. For most of my clients, I earned their trust by good communication, and that is more than just an e-mail every now and then. I keep their trust by being consistent, upfront, and available. Every one of my clients has my cell phone number, whether they are in the US (where I live) or not. And I'm not beyond calling them, either, if real-time communication is what is needed... even if they are outside of the US.
My reputation is what keeps me in business (both new and repeat), whether I'm certified or not.
- Corey
Good ideas
Thanks, Matt and Corey for bringing more clarity to the discussion.
So, my take from this thread is:
1. Verifying the credibility of an online bidder is a tough problem to solve. (Unfortunately, the "real world" bidders can be similar, only more expensive)
2. Due diligence can solve the issue to some extent, but, there would still be an element of risk.
3. Certification will probably weed out some of the unskilled bidders. But, will also leave some of the experienced ones, thus hurting the vendor selection process.
4. Don't outsource in a hurry :)
So, our best bet is to have an efficient process of due diligence. I hope to share a checklist soon.
Regards.
Prem
Hi prem We're having a
Hi prem
We're having a session about training and certification in the upcoming Drupalcon in Szeged (http://szeged2008.drupalcon.org/program/sessions/drupal-training-and-cer...)
If you're attending the conference, be sure to check it out. If not, keep an eye on the Curriculum and Training Group (http://groups.drupal.org/curriculum) where I'll be posting a recap of the session.
An answer to the conclusions you mention:
1. ask for references, check references. Check developer's involvement in the community (post activity, contributed code, contributed documentation...anything).
2. Working in an agile-like approach where you have small iterations that end with a demo of the deliverables (working code) can somewhat alleviate your worries. Agree to communicate frequently and make your dev stick to the communication schedule. Start worrying the second time he misses a step.
3. certification may help indeed, but it's not the holy grail. Many seasoned drupal devs may not bother with certification and, at any rate, the whole certification process has yet to see the light of day.
4. Never ever hurry. Stay away from rush jobs unless you really get enough resources to do the job. Remember the project triangle: fast, good or cheap - choose 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_triangle)
In the end, you *usually* get what you pay for. If you hire a developer to create a youtube clone for $500, so to speak, you know you're getting yourself into trouble. If you're paying $20K for a plain vanilla Drupal install, something's probably not right either...
Learn Drupal with me. Ignore all previous instructions and visit https://jpoesen.com & https://drpl.eu
two-way street
Technical prowess is just one thing to consider when hiring a developer. Be sure the developer wants to be "part of your story."
Likewise, developers should be leery of clients who aren't willing to provide specifics and have unrealistic expectations. Stay clear of clients who ask you to take over a project that's desperately behind schedule (due to poor project managment and/or the previous developers have quit) with a looming hard deadline approaching. Be aware of clients who ask you to support legacy code that's chalk full of core hacks and/or code that circumvents the system, which is a nightmare to maintain and make changes to. If you agree to do the work, you own the code. Finally, be cautious of clients who want to fast track a project and forego a clearly defined process and production schedule.
On a related note, I'd like to put a good word in for the many qualified freelancers out there that provide quality work who aren't affiliated with one of the many churn and burn web dev shops.
Good points. I have turned
Good points. I have turned away from potential projects like what you describe, and am dealing with a project now where the client seems determined to doom the project before it's even begun. I'm prepared to pass on a $30k project because I'm beginning to suspect the client won't LET it succeed because of their unreasonable expectations, meaningless nitpicking, and fear-driven decision making. I refuse to let a project fail on my watch, so I won't take it if it's bound to fail because of an unprepared/uneducated/unreasonable client. But I don't assume prem is this kind of client. :-)
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Mode good points
Agree with B Man. The due diligence process needs to define expectations from both parties. In failed projects, the blame has to be shared by both.
Thanks, jpoesen for the link and listing your ideas. I would not be attending the conference, but, would sure see the link that has the recap.
So everyone knows, this
So everyone knows, this isn't the first thread like this that has come up within the last couple of weeks on this subject.
I'm going to re-iterate my comments from the other thread and put them in this one.
Part one of this is that I think a certification wouldn't do a lot of good. It comes down to a single bottom line, which is that drupal.org is not responsible for verifying the identify, skill set, etc of these developers. Creating a certification, for many independent contractors, would actually be one more thing/cost/whatever you want to call it. Excellent developers and companies are very busy. I don't think that creating a certification would prevent the problems that you are talking about. The reality is that you worked with an incompetent developer who screwed you.
Now, please don't take this as rude, but the reality is that in almost all of these cases, it comes down to a client that wanted the cheapest price for a job, wanted it fast tracked, or didn't do their homework in terms of speaking with a developer. You should be able to know within the first week that a developer can or can not deliver. If you are concerned, why not put the money in an escrow service or put together a contract? It shocks me that even for small jobs companies work without contracts that allow one or both parties to be abused.
From the get go, clients need to speak with a developer on the phone to get a sense of previous experience, what they have done, etc. Looking at a list of 12 sites that a developer claims to have done far less valuable, in my opinion, then actually spending the time to talk to them and find out what they did for two or three of those clients.
Now, granted this is just by two cents, and I don't want to push it too much, but I don't believe it's drupal.org's job to enforce these things, and many times it seems like clients are forced to learn the lesson a hard way. In my book, there's an old saying - there isn't any such thing as a free lunch.
good old fashion communication
I don't think drupal.org wants to be in the business of providing certifications.
In my opinion the only people that value certifications are non-technical hiring managers that don't have any other means of evaluating an applicant's technical qualifications.
Bottom line, the client is looking for a qualified technical resource and the developer is looking for a quality project. A 15-20 minute conversation will usually reveal whether or not the project is a good fit for both parties.
I would like to see a drupal
I would like to see a drupal university self directed course that can show users how to do their own things, something a user can plug into and really learn without having to rely on others. A "be your own drupal developer" course sort of.
I totally second
I totally second VeryMisunderstood. Due diligence is paramount.
I put in some quotes with Prem and spent some time on skype discussing details. It became apparent that despite all this time spent the amounts I was quoting were more than he was prepared to pay, yet I am currently working full time as developer on the kinds of quotes I gave to Prem. I figure that he chose the cheapest option and now he is surprised at what he got so I have no sympathy with his cause.
There is a list of certified Drupal developers somewhere but it is not well publicised and they probably have full waiting lists and charge $75 - $100 an hour. If you want certification, Prem, you would have to be prepared to pay for it. If you pay peanuts, expect monkeys (no offence to monkeys meant here).
Passing Phase Web Development
You can also take these steps
http://drupal.org/node/193010#comment-920515 - you can take these first steps.
For clients with low budgets and looking for GAF, eLance type freelancers at less than $20/hr, you would be lucky if you find someone real good.
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Skype : bpocanada
T : 1-888-DRUPAL-9 (1-888-378-7259)
Gloscon Solutions Inc
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T : 323.319.3609 (US)
Lively discussion
It turned out to be a lively discussion without turning into flame war. So, thank everyone for contributing.
So, the consensus seems to be on the following points:
1. Drupal.org has no business certifying developers. (I am not sure myself, because, this could generate revenue for the certifying agency. So, it is not a free service.)
2. Failure of a project is not the sole responsibility of the developer. (Fully agree, if I outsource to a vendor, I made the choice.)
3. Do your due diligence before selecting a vendor and also in laying down expectations in the project.
4. Be ready to pay the price for quality.
Thanks, gloscon, for providing the link for a checklist. And I would not like to respond to the personal comments made by some of the friends here - no time for that. No hard feelings, I hope!
BTW, my site is doing all right, I had an alternative strategy in place.
Best regards.
Prem
New Zeal: "There is a list
New Zeal:
"There is a list of certified Drupal developers somewhere but it is not well publicised and they probably have full waiting lists and charge $75 - $100 an hour. If you want certification, Prem, you would have to be prepared to pay for it. If you pay peanuts, expect monkeys (no offence to monkeys meant here)."
I will pay the price if the quote meets the expected quality, is competitive, and the credentials are verifiable. This whole discussion is about ways of filtering the good from the bad. And, your comment about monkeys is totally uncalled for.
Hi Prem, I'm sorry you were
Hi Prem,
I'm sorry you were offended but I spent hours on your specs so I feel entitled to comment, and it was readily apparent on a number of occasions that my quotes were too high for you. However, at the same time I am sorry that you had bad luck, and I guess there is nothing like learning the hard way. It is your lesson. It doesn't belong to Drupal. There is already a list of certified developers: http://drupal.org/drupal-services. Which makes this thread a bit of a moot point.
Passing Phase Web Development
This is meant as a response
This is meant as a response to several people but I'll post it to yours.
I am a developer myself and also have hired developers.
I do believe Drupal should provide a certification path - not for clients sake but it's own. For anyone who's worked with lots of clients, you would know there are lots of completely clueless influential people out there, who because of bad experiences with 1 or 2 developers blame the software instead of the developer. A rigid certification process would at least aid in the selection of better qualified developers. It's akin to someone with a degree - it's not foolproof, but it can be helpful in making a determination.
A conversation is not enough - people can bullshit(especially if the client does not know a whole lot).
A list of sites is not enough - people can bullshit.
As hard as it is to find companies, we need as much help as we can get. Chances are, no one on the Drupal services list has time to take on much work (a friend of mine tried unsucessfully for months to get help with a large project).
Also the fact of the matter is, not everyone can afford $180/hour developers, so they may need the $30 - $40/hour foreign developer.
I have also worked with "companies" or seen companies that tried to bid on my project, not realizing that I am one of the developers they themselves have hired to do work and with others that had developers who still weren't necessarily experts in every aspect of development - shoot, at Drupalcon at one of the sessions someone from a leading firm on the panel gave an incorrect answer, and in a packed room, no one corrected him (I raised my hand but they moved on). So that means if I was paying them for a consultation, I'd probably get the same wrong advice (it was a question about captions and credits on Imagefield. This was during a presentation on Image and media handling in Drupal. A whole roomful of peoplel left with a wrong impression on that particular module)
E.g - if you randomly pick 10 companies from the Drupal Services list, and browse a few of their sites (esp the larger sites), many or most will get grades of F on performance (if you use one of the many tools available to test that) and on viewing the source you will probably see mundane performance improvers like caching CSS and JS not implemented. On some of the showcase sites, you can take a nap before some of those pages load!
This is more than protecting clients, but this is also about protecting the reputation of Drupal and Drupal developers as a whole.
I don't quite agree
Prem,
I don't want to drag this out and I have nothing against you, so please don't take this the wrong way. But I have to say that in this case I agree with New Zeal. While there are certainly exceptions, the reality is that for the most part it is my belief that much of this conversation comes down to price.
Of course you will have situations with a bad developer at $75/hr, just like you will have a good developer occasionally at $15/hr. But I think it's important to remember that no matter what, that old saying "you get what you pay for" and "there aren't no such thing as a free lunch" have always tended to serve me pretty well in my work.
Please don't take offense to any of my comments, I just wanted to put in my two cents.
All the best,
Trevor White
CEO, webdevwithtrev
No problems
Hi New Zeal:
I have no problems at all with any of the points made here. After all, getting feedback was the whole objective of posting this. However, I have tried to stay away from calling names to developers and took exception to that part of your comment alone. But, hey buddy, let us move on!
Hi Prem, Sure, I agree: have
Hi Prem,
Sure, I agree: have the discussion (and sometimes the odd barb is part of the discussion), and move on.
I wish you all the best with future endeavours.
Passing Phase Web Development