Improving the usability of Drupal is very important. Yesterday, I wrote about the progress that was made on Drupal 7 usability -- the community has made a ton of incremental improvements, while Mark and Leisa have been preparing mockups and wireframes that provide significant over-arching improvements to Drupal's ease of use. Combined, I believe these efforts could make Drupal 7 a great release. A release that the Drupal project needs since our competitors are catching up in terms of functionality and flexibility. Likewise we need to catch up in terms of design and usability. It is my belief that we can develop a user experience for our project that is game changing, and that completely resets people's expectations both for Drupal and our competitors.
As I wrote in yesterday's status update, an objective without a strategy remains a dream. We added a strategy by inviting Mark and Leisa to help but unfortunately, a strategy without execution remains a dream too. In other words, the time has come to start translating some of Mark and Leisa's work into working code. With 3 months until the Drupal 7 code freeze, it is time to build working prototypes so we can do user testing, refine the user experience, figure out the remaining design questions, and ultimately, get everything right for inclusion in Drupal 7.
Needless to say, this is a non-trivial amount of work that requires a highly collaborative process in what seems like a very limited time. It's easy to throw up our hands and say that it's impossible, that we should wait for Drupal 8, or whatnot. However, maintaining the status quo is simply not an option. Drupal 8 won't be used in production for, probably, at least another two years. As I wrote before, I don't want to compromise on Drupal 7's usability.
Few projects win by maintaining the status quo. Projects that win are those that go ahead and always improve. It is OK to be afraid about the work that is ahead. If you're not scared, you're not doing the right thing. Both winners and losers have fear, but all winners have faith. We can do this -- we've done it before.
We have to acknowledge that we arrived at a special point. The time has come to start working together even more but as a community, we're still learning how we can best work together on usability and design issues. Retrofitting a usability process into what has traditionally been an engineering process comes with some challenges and frustrations. Based on the progress that we have made recently, I'm confident that we'll figure this out, and that the process will feel completely natural in the long term.
Here is how I think about it in the short term, and how you can help.
Mark and Leisa will be helping us until the end of July to refine the current mockups based on more user testing, feedback from the community, and additional research -- they'll also be available to help answer questions and to help all of us sort through any implementation details. Their current mockups are a great starting point -- they'll force us to collaborate more and to streamline the process. The more mockups we can implement and the sooner we can implement them, the more testing Mark and Leisa can do, the more problems we'll discover, and the easier it becomes to refine things.
If you are a Drupal developer, look for issues tagged 'd7ux'. We're also using a tag called 'd7ux-design-question' to track non-engineering questions for Mark, Leisa and the usability team -- this should make it easier for everyone to stay on top of the progress. For people new to Drupal, Leisa and other people in the Drupal usability team launched a micro-projects initiative.
At this point, I've no plans to postpone the code freeze date. We started working on Drupal 7 in February 2008, so it has been a long release cycle already -- as it stands, Drupal 7 probably won't be released before January 2010. Instead of pushing back the code freeze date, I'd like to invite all of you to help with the implementation of the mockups that Mark and Leisa are providing. If you are a company, you can help by contributing some dedicated resources to help. If you're contributing as an individual, we appreciate every hour or day that you can put into this project. If you are a module maintainer, now would be a good time to figure out what this means for your module and how it could fit in. Get involved now, and help make Drupal 7 a game changing release!
To help, Acquia will start contributing a significant amount of its engineering resources. Starting this week, we'll contribute two or three people full-time until the end of the summer! Probably a combination of Gábor Hojtsy, David Rothstein, and Paul Lovvik. Jeff Noyes and Jason Reed will assist with user testing and design. Also, after talking to Mark Boulton, he has agreed to contribute one week a month of Tim Millwood's time (a Drupal developer that they have on staff) from now on to code freeze.
I hope others will step up to dedicate some of their time and resources as well -- when you do, make sure to announce it in the comments and on your blogs. Together, we should be able to make a lot of progress. The more people from the Drupal community that can jump in to help, the better Drupal 7 will be for us all. Now is the right time to bring vision, strategy, and execution together to achieve our objective. Fear not, Drupal 7 will be a game changing release.
Comments
Great news! Usability is
Great news! Usability is important, but I hope usability won't get overrated!
D7
I finished to pass my drupal farm from d5 to d6 last february. My conclusion is that it was too early, d6 was not ready, I mean including the contrib modules I really need to make a website, d6 progressed a lot since february. Theses last months I had to make a huge number of updates as I use numerous contrib modules. I was thinking then I could planify the migration from d6 to d7 and I thought northern winter 2010-2011 would probably be a great time for that. I see that it is in pretty good agrement with your time schedule, but as I realise than more than one year has been necessary to adapt contribution modules from d5 to d6, it may be a good idea to schedul the sommer 2011-2012 to have stable contrib and be ready to a smooth d6-d7 migration. You know in our contries summer are a bit short for migrating websites. If you ask me that I expect for d7? Better integration of contributed modules (to core and between themselves) seems to me number one priority, with excellent documentation of both contrib and core. Security is also very hight. Organic groups and moderation in core would be great. A good migration path where you do not loose all your views is another dream. Drupal is a good system, with lots of bugs in contrib. Thanks to all people who make it possible. We have a lot of fun using it.
I share these concerns. Why
I share these concerns. Why can't we drop 4.7, retrodate 5.x and call 6.x our current. Let's work on complete power for 6.x as our main aim and focus on 7.x in a year or two?
.
4.7 was dropped already a year ago. 5.x is in maintainance and 6.x is the current. 7.x is the upcoming version. What you're basically saying is the core devs should sit on their hands for 2 years since 6.x is frozen.
Michelle
Upgrading to 7
Maybe not the best place but just responding to what jean was saying.
I started using on Drupal 4.7.
Back then contrib modules were excellent, but for myself, as a photographer (and a programmer also), wanted a stable easy, and powerfull way to show my photography work.
I started using Acidfree and I was quite happy.
Eventually I decided to go to 5.x. The problem was that there was not a path to just simply upgrade cause my main contrib module wouldn't upgrade that easily on 5.
So, I started all over, CLEAN this time.
After using Drupal 5.x for about a year it was about time to go to 6.x. Again I started clean. Now I am using 6.12 and I will not change to any 7.x until there is a certain path of upgrade. Right now I have my personal photography site very close to what I was dreaming of and I can not afford to start clean again.
For me this is the biggest issue!!!
OK, we are doing a great job to build a really excellent next version of Drupal and I love it, but what about upgrading? Will it be an easy transfer from the previous version to the new one?
If you ask me, I think rush into producing a new version might be good or might not.
I think it is about time to think that installation profiles take a leading priority. And by this I mean the following :
1. During installation be able to select the type of site we want to build (blogging, community oriented, eshop, business-product, etc etc)
2. Let people decide which contib modules would like to use DURING INSTALLATION
3. Organize the users, roles and permissions DURING INSTALLATION
4. Customise the theming as much as possible DURING INSTALLATION
If we manage to do these, then much more people will start using Drupal because of easiness during installation.
Nowdays, you have to be computer oriented in order to get a Drupal installation into shape!!!
With Drupal 7 we are aiming on the user's experience to be better!!! What about if the user is the person that installs the system himself and knows nothing about building web sites?
Hate to say this but Drupal is far far behind on these terms!!!
Dries, we might want to consider these 4 (not at all easy) steps after we finish with 7.x usability mockups and code.
This is just my view. Some of you may not agree but this is quite allright!!! This is what this site is for. Agree or disagree we always advance to something better!!!
Long live Drupal. Love it!!! Thank you.
7x
I would like to second ostersD comments... i had the same problem when i was using 5.x now i upgraded my site 6.12. i tried mixing up tables in Mysql but something didn't work. well then i had to go for clean installation and putting all my data again. it was a big a job seriously.
you know i am just in love with drupal, it has such powerful engine no doubts. but now if you will ask me to upgrade from 6 to 7 with out any update link or patch it would be really difficult.
My Suggestions:
there should be two core downloads for 7.x
1. for Upgrades from 6 to 7 or 5 to 7
2. for clean installations.
and other suggestions by OSTERD are very useful you can use that to some extent.
Two things, Every version of
Two things,
API Stability
I love Drupal, it makes it easy for me to build powerful websites for my customers that are easy for them to manage.
I'd like to see a lot more effort put into API stability. I definitely think that new features and a continually improving Drupal are important. But it's hard for contributed modules to keep up, especially for large packages like E-Commerce or Ubercart. What would be really great is if Drupal 8 worked in such a way that a Drupal 7 module will continue to work against a Drupal 8 install. There are a couple things you can do to make this happen:
1. Use functions instead of direct access to data structures for the module API. So instead of passing the menu tree to a module, you pass a menu object, and the developer uses the methods of that object to manipulate the data structure. Methods return scalars or objects, but never data structures.
2. When new functionality is needed, new methods are added to the objects, and the internal, protected or private data structures are changed.
The suck in this plan is that in addition to designing a first-rate CMS, you now also have to design an API. But I think the trade offs will be worth it. I design my own applications this way, and it lets me make pretty radical changes without a lot of effort.
...
Get in there Clay, core is hungry for new developers, always room for one more!
Pimp your Drupal 8 Toolbar - make it badass.
Adaptivetheme - theming system for people who don't code.
Please help!
APIs don't design themselves. :) The only way the software improves is if someone has an "itch" and works to see it through, either by providing code, or reviews, or testing, or design, or funding.
http://drupal.org/node/460320 is one patch in particular that aims to create a consistent loading API for entities and could do with some insights from people with experience designing APIs.
Hope to see you in the issue queue!
...
Got a lump in my throat, but been quietly sharpening my CSS Samurai Swords for months, bring it on :))
So yes, expect a few days a week out me.
I have recently approached a small group of UX geeks in the UK, right now I'm waiting to hear back, if they come onboard I want to dedicate this resource to important Microprojects, probably the really important contrib modules such as a Pathauto makeover.
Pimp your Drupal 8 Toolbar - make it badass.
Adaptivetheme - theming system for people who don't code.
One of the reasons that I
One of the reasons that I like Drupal so much, is that it's so easy to theme. One thing that concerns me is that some of the usability enhancements proposed for D7 may make theming more difficult.
Premium component based Drupal themes
...
From looking at the proposed patches for the theme layer in D7, its going to be better, easier and faster than ever!
Pimp your Drupal 8 Toolbar - make it badass.
Adaptivetheme - theming system for people who don't code.
d7 looked great when I checked
D7 is already a vast improvement, but there are some features I hope will be included as part of core:
1. user tracker toggled to be part of user profile content rather than an extra page.
("Recent posts" block in each user profile, similar to IPB and most other forum software.)
2. easier-to-customize breadcrumb links, no longer theme-specific.
3. toggle whether or not a block generates div classes.
Some other features I dream about include a more speedy shoutbox/chat (Tribune is ok but just too difficult to customize.), in-CMS filter creation (I hate having to use add-on modules for this!), and, among other things, a built-in subscription/newsletter feature. (It'd just be nice to have it built into core.)
---
I have created and maintained countless Drupal-powered sites and have made heavy modifications to modules on a site-by-site basis. I am an illustrator, a game developer, and a web developer. I also stream on Twitch in my spare time.
d7 and multilingual functionality
Drupal is a nice project! However, I think that nowdays many Web sites need the use of several languages and, although some modules try to help us to do that, the work is not easy. I think that new releases of Drupal should consider multilingual Web sites as a standard situation and make the construction of multilingual sites much more simply.
Reminder: This post is a call for action, not feature requests
Feature requests go in the Drupal core issue queue (after you've searched first, of course).
Please keep replies to this thread focused on things that you will do to help make Drupal 7 awesome. If you're planning on heading up any serious undertakings, please make a sub-page under Drupal Core Initiatives (if there isn't already one) to track the important issues so that others can help.
For my part, I am going to try and hold bi-weekly, virtual patch review sprints to help provide focused time to drive home some of these heavy-hitting issues. I'll work out the exact schedule and post it here once I have it.
I also really want to get back to the Revamped Help System patch, which is one of the critical pieces of UX still remaining. Unfortunately, I really messed up in how I handled this patch before, so I don't think I can convince any of the original developers to work on it again. :( But if anyone wants to work on this, please ping me on IRC morning, noon, or night. I still think this is one of the most important patches in the queue.
I should be able to dedicate at least 15-30 hours per week from now until D7 ships, apart from about 3 weeks in there when I'm traveling, and barring client emergencies, etc. Sleeping is for suckers!
Volunteer to create a graphical UML model of Drupal 7
I am a UML specialist and educator and am interested in creating a complete graphical UML analysis models of Drupal 7, including architectural layer models, and service oriented and port-based models of actual and pseudo interfaces. The entire process is driven by documentation; each sentence of the docs gets bound to UML elements, where the elements are (where possible) reverse engineered, and "wrapped" in a documenting content, using my UML Parsing Analysis recipe. So each sentence (selected) gets one or more hyperlinked UML diagrams, and each diagrams shares model elements from the entire model.
I am also looking into using annotations to suggest types on properties to enhance PHP_UML, otherwise one has to do a lot of Associations between classes by hand, which is self-defeating and fragile.
The result would be hosted on the Webel site as a downstream "consumer" of Drupal documents, and with every sentence hyperlinked to UML diagrams, and with xrefs back to the (possibly evolving) Drupal docs. Yes, it's a big job. The trick is to select specific sentences well, it is not possible to do the entire documentation.
Webel
Webel IT Australia, "Elements of the Web", Scientific IT Consultancy,
For PHP-driven Drupal CMS web sites, Enterprise Java, graphical UML, UML Parsing Analysis, SysML, XML.
This is a GREAT idea
If we could tie this in with content types/cck we'd have something close to the system I was using in 2001 which taught me what I wanted in a CMS. I knew Drupal would get there, eventually =)
I'm looking forward to
I'm looking forward to getting stuck in and working on the usability patches.
Tim
Dear Drupal friends, Can some
Dear Drupal friends,
Can some volunteer or sponsors be assigned to clear some of the
thousands of unanwered questions
http://drupal.org/forum/22?sort=asc&order=Replies ?
Quick solutions can help in the game.
Even posting a link will help. I used the search a lot
but not found answers to my problems.
Call for attention of forums, for frontpage?
I agree with ronia that the situation in the forum is far from optimal.
In my past days, when new to Drupal, I soon had to give up the forums, since I couldn't expect an answer earlier than in a few days, if ever. Wish it was more like the Ubuntu forums(!).
Additionally I agree that just a quick link of hint can be a huge help, and it'd be worth to update even years old posts, since the forum topics is what mostly appear when searching for your specific question on Google.
As being an experienced Drupal user today I'd be glad to help much more, if I knew I wasn't alone.
Something for the frontpage? "Call for attention to the forums"
Let's do it! :)
> Wish it was more like the
> Wish it was more like the Ubuntu forums(!).
That's exactly what I was thinking! I agree with your entire post.
As a Drupal newbie I have felt that the forums here are of very limited help compared to what I have found at some other FOSS projects. But it isn't just the forums here that left me feeling helpless. The Drupal support mailing list and other Drupal places I tried didn't seem very responsive either. I thought it was just me!
As popular as Drupal is, I expected it to be easier for a newbie to find help.
_
All the 'wishing' in the world won't change the facts-- there are over 500K registered users on drupal.org and only about a dozen people in the forums who regularly provide assistance to others. Even if only a tiny fraction of that 500k are legit users that ratio is beyond disappointing. If everyone would jump in and try to answer just a post or two a day for someone else instead of posting to complain or wish there would be no problem. It's really that simple.
Forums - complexity
From someone who also gave up on the forums area - one of the reasons for giving up was the complexity of the layout. The default forums on Drupal are not "vBulletin style." I don't mean the UI per say --- but the ease of finding threads and answers. For example - there should be Drupal 4.7, Drupal 5.x, Drupal 6.x and Drupal 7.x sections. Also, think of the easy office means of organizing items -- such as the filing cabinet, file drawer, files, and papers themselves. This is how the forums should be outlined.
Is there one person on the Drupal team responsible for forums? Maybe there should be a team? FWIW, I'd love to figure out how to do this and help here.
Out of scope
This thread is about Drupal 7's usability, not drupal.org's forums. If you want to help out with the drupal.org redesign, there are groups for it over on groups.drupal.org.
Michelle
We have different
We have different perspectives on usability. Drupal.org is part of Drupal 7 and any future release of Drupal will be dependent upon a good experience on the support site. Therefore, I was within the scope of the topic.
Regardless, your idea of going to groups isn't helpful because of the unwieldy number of groups. Who is the person (or who are the people) responsible for setting up the forums on Drupal.org? Do you know of a group or was that just a quick thought?
Not really
drupal.org is on D6 and how the infrastructure chooses to use Drupal on this site doesn't affect how you can use Drupal on your own sites. So lumping in drupal.org issues with D7 usability just confuses the issue.
There may be a lot of groups on g.d.o but there is also a search function that brings up:
http://groups.drupal.org/drupalorg-redesign-infrastructure-team
http://groups.drupal.org/drupalorg-redesign-plan-drupal-association
The forums were set up many years ago. There have been some changes such as deprecating a lot of them but, other than that, it hasn't changed much in the 4 years I've been here. If you want to propose a restructuring of the forums, I suggest you start a new issue. As I said, the forum setup here on d.o is not a factor of D7 usability.
Michelle
Furthermore...
The D7UX project has very little to do with people who come on drupal.org. The D7UX project is all about helping the people who don't even know what Drupal is (your clients, website visitors, etc.) to be able to do the things they need to do more quickly and easily. See http://www.d7ux.org/who-is-d7ux-for/
_
Although this is not the thread for this discussion, I will say that drupal has over 500k registered users yet I see only about a dozen or so regularly active posters in the forums (posting to assist someone else rather than for themselves). If everyone that received assistance paid it forward this wouldn't be an issue. All too often I see people with pages and pages of threads for themselves without so much as a single attempt to answer a question for someone else. Remember-- everyone, no matter how new, can attempt to help someone else.
Well said :)
Well said :)
Dear Drupal Friend, Its egg
Dear Drupal Friend,
Its egg or chicken - which is first situation.
I used to use e107 . They have
small but dedicated team assigned to help new-comers.
A first or new comer to Drupal comes, gets no
answer in reasonable time, turns away. Thus
there is a pile accumulated.
He does not know how many registered users
are there. He is selfish true.
But here I read about winning "games"
To win games there needs to be a small
team assigned to help those who have
few issues on the tracker with 0 reply.
They need to be answered fast and first.
Hopefully it will improve
Hopefully it will improve once the new design is up
The forum is a bit stranger than your average forum software.
Maybe the d7ux people can add
Maybe the d7ux people can add a search variable to return results that only have replies. What a world of improvement that might be.
Interesting...
I just implemented that for a client yesterday. I'll share the secret sauce with the infra team.
Your post motivated me to go
Your post motivated me to go and answer questions in the forums. I've received so much help from the community, you are right : it's time to pay it forward.
I will try to help on at least 3 forum posts without any replies every day. Would be cool if a lot of people committed to do something simlar, but of course, there are several ways to contribute to this project. This will be another one for me, it's nice to see that after three years around I'm starting to have answers to most newbie questions ;)
Patchak
3 posts a day... that's a
3 posts a day... that's a good idea! :) Will try that too.
_
Thanks guys-- that's WONDERFUL! And remember-- even if you're not positive you know the answer just trying to assist can be reassuring and possibly lead to a solution. Besides-- it's a great way to learn. I learned more by trying to help others with their problems than I ever would have learned on my own.
I'll try to post something in
I'll try to post something in the forums about this, and eventually maybe have it promoted to the front page. It's a really simple way to help, really fast and it feeld great to take a step deeper int he community. Like I said, there are enourmous ways to help Drupal grow, this could just well be another one!!
Patchak
.
I was browsing and am reading this with some mixed thoughts.. I am one of those noob's(1 year).. I was trying to help in the forums, and have done some good, especially with the brand new people. I am new to the whole forum thing anyway. But often I get the thought that I am in the way, or maybe not answering folks correctly. I don't want to answer in forums with bad info.. after reading this, I will get back in there and try again... There is a great satisfaction when you are able to help someone. I do remember 'my' first month.lol.first 6 months of being lost.
...
Never think that you are getting in the way or that you don't have something to contribute. You do. Granted its best to simply not answer code questions where you aren't 100% positive you know the answer and you don't have time to test a solution. However you can always give some general advice (pointing out a handbook page, suggestion a useful tool or module etc).
Pimp your Drupal 8 Toolbar - make it badass.
Adaptivetheme - theming system for people who don't code.
Dear Drupal friend Dear
Dear Drupal friend
Dear Patchak,
How to say thanks to this noble effort?
May be you can persuade a front page
story showing your example. Drupal
can publish and maintain a list of
such persons.
Then the problem will have a
happy ending.
Good Point
really good point ronia.
I have already posted a fix for an issue at: http://drupal.org/forum/22?sort=asc&order=Replies after seeing your post.
Ortaga
d7
I can agree that usability is the most priority for drupal.
When I found that another cms have som much approvements that drupal haven't, I was surprised.
E.g. Joomla - You can load module just selecting file on your hdd and the system will do everything for you (uploading/unpacking, etc)
E.g. such small thing as option to add polls inside nodes - Drupal is missing it, pollfield module is for D5 (with hundred bugs)
I know that it is not about drupal core, but that all is about missing basic things what almost all other cms have. It is great that drupal has so much amazing api for almost everything. But when you find that same basic functionality/usability is missing, or is so much complicated, you are mad of it (inserting images into node, not well forum, user relationships e.g.).
I really like Drupal, I work with Drupal from 4.6 version. At the end of last year I did upgrade from D5 to D6 and almost one year after release D6 it was really painfull (I know, it is about contributed modules, but Drupal without them is not usable for bigger project)
So I am a little frustrated to hear about Drupal 7, that Drupal 7 will solve (once again) all our troubles (it is similar as microsoft new windows versions :) I would be more happy if current Drupal version (6) would be developing longer time after release, not reject it after release and all new things to do always into new version only.
Igor
Igorik
www.somvprahe.sk
Igor is correct. I posted
Igor is correct. I posted once that throwing the API up in the air for change every release led to intellectual laziness, and one of the Drupal core programmers threw a fit and said who was I to call them lazy? To explain: this is not a comment about the core programmers, it is a fundamental truth about human psychology. If you allow yourself great latitude all the time, you will find easy solutions that are not the best. If you place constraints upon yourself and think within them, you will find better solutions. Yes, I understand the idea that we don't want to be tied to past design mistakes. But really, this is major version 7?! Are you still making so many serious mistakes that they must be corrected before ANY new features go in? (Because typically, nothing new goes in after a version release.) I think perhaps a wiser strategy might be to alternate versions that strictly keep the API (so themes and modules last longer without wearing everybody out simply keeping current before even thinking of feature improvement) and versions that allow it to alter, thereby allowing huge feature improvements. What you forget with the idea of racing ahead with core features is the immense amount of wasted time for all of your contributors to modules and themes.
Seriously, I think it is time to rethink the base strategy of drupal development.
With apologies,
Ron.
...
The growth of the Drupal project debases your argument, with every major version the user base doubles. That trend will not change with D7, in fact it may accelerate. You fundamentally misunderstand the Drupal philosophy, if you did you would embrace the heroic efforts of our core developers and stunning new features each version brings. Backwards compatibility will only stifle innovation, not enhance it as you seem to be arguing. No other major (I mean big) FOSS CMS projects (such as Joomla or WP) have strong backwards compatibility - Joomla 1.5 is not compatible with Joomla 1, WP 2.7.3 plugins might not work in WP 2.7.5. Software projects must move forward, Drupal has lost nothing employing this philosophy, rather the opposite.
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discussion
this discussion is about usability. What you wrote is in exact opposite of usability.
The point is that it is better and more easy for programmer to create a new version if ithere will be not have compatilbility. Why we have to create a new Drupal each year? We can continuosly do evolution, and each 3 years to do a new drupal with a lot PREPARED contrib modules for new version, and easy upgrade from old version.
Release of Drupal 6 was punishment for new users what they want to use complex CMS. No views, no CCK, no other great basic modules. There was no way to upgrade next 8 months till this great module were prepared.
My philosophy is evolution, not revolution. Smart programmers think about upgrade, compatibility, lazy don't. Because it is to do something more, what is not so great as developing new features and telling what a new cool things drupal knows.
Igorik
www.somvprahe.sk
...
My guess you don't know a whole lot about programming nor the real issues causing the delay's in updates to those major modules (very little to do with Drupal core FYI). Calling core developers "lazy programmers" is little more than a slap in the face, how a bit of respect eh? Mayor versions come about once every 2 years, not 1. Our programmers do think very much about upgrades, but not at the exspence of new featues that advance the project. Let me show you how self defeating your argument is - you simply would NOT have the Drupal you have today if we followed your paradigm, no Views, no CCK, no Panels etc etc etc.
Pimp your Drupal 8 Toolbar - make it badass.
Adaptivetheme - theming system for people who don't code.
generally
I thought it generally. Don't think about drupal programmers, but generally, it is more easy to don't think about upgrade/compatibility but look at new nice features only.
As I know, Drupal 7 release date was planned at the start of this year (1 year after D6) and it was moved. It was (IMHO) because everybody saw a fiasco with drupal 6 start, and that drupal 6 started to be usable at the end of the last year. (almost 1 year after it's release)
It is my real opinion, that continuosly evolution is better (and usable) system as radical revolution.
Igorik
www.somvprahe.sk
=-=
contrib developers took advantage of changes in core to rewrite their modules. That is likely why it took longer than past releases.
The way to get these contrib modules up to the next version faster, is to help developers work on the ports to the next version. Views and CCK are huge modules and huge undertakings. The more people who work on them to bring them forward, test them to help make sure they are as bug free as possible the better.
As far as I know the release date of Drupal 7.x wasn't moved. Typically it's 24 months between major releases. The code freeze may have been moved but I don't recall reading that either.
...
That's too simplistic, there's more to it than that, and more at stake. Take the major changes to the theme layer being proposed for D7, if they go ahead they will break every single theme ever made for Drupal. In fact changes already implemented will break themes. I am right behind these changes and I'm the guy with 10 themes to maintain! Why, because the benefits are huge - one of which is potentially making it much easier for low skilled themers to theme node fields. Its a huge win for the community at large. The proposals are revolutionary, and thank goodness we have such forward thinking developers dreaming this stuff up and making it work (with yet another huge contribution to the project).
Pimp your Drupal 8 Toolbar - make it badass.
Adaptivetheme - theming system for people who don't code.
drupal is not useable to me on 6 version
drupal is not useable for me on 6 version.
In internet explorer 7 it gives error 500 when saving "edit/user" page or saving "admin/user settings" page.
It happens even trying to save the page without any changes made.
However, if I refresh the page a second time after first getting to it, and then save. Then it saves some of the time.
On safari it saves okay and does not give error 500.
This means everytime any members with internet explorer want to save their edit/user page, they have to either refresh the page a second time. Which is not satisfactory I think. And doesn't even seem to work everytime either.
I have shared hosting, with webhostingbuzz. And I have installed drupal before, and used many times over 2 and a half years. Also using versions of 6 before. I have never had this problem with saving pages in internet explorer before.
And so for me, this means I have to give up creating any site with drupal yet again. Because it has to work for users easily without them having to do any unusual steps. And has to work with internet explorer.
It seems that drupal is always 90 percent complete, but there is always some vital thing missing that is essential to what I needed. And so it is never ready for use in the last 2 years for me. I wasted lots of time, on lots of occasions on and off through 2 years. And then realised I can't do what I am trying to do each time. And have to give up, until some months later I have to try again and hope I missed something that can make it work, because I spent so much time on learning it, I hate to have to have just wasted it.
But it is true what people say, drupal seems now only really for developers and people who have day to day professions in computing. And not basic or mass public users.
I have looked in the forums for over a month for problems about drupal and internet explorer and saving the settings pages and can't find anything. Can't we just have a special place or page where all problems with drupal and internet explorer are listed and known solutions given?
It has to be useable out of the box, to everyone.
P.S. I have tested this on a clean install with no extra modules enabled and it is still giving the same 500 error on saving the settings pages.
P.S.S. However, I can also create, edit and save content. So it is not a problem with saving pages in general, but a problem with those particular admin pages mentioned.
I can't believe noone else has ever had this problem, and yet I can't find any discussion of it anywhere.
If anyone has come across it before in any way, or has any idea, please help. I am beginning to think drupal will never be ready for me, even if I waited for the completed 7 version.
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So you haven't seen anyone having this problem but you and yet you assume that it is a problem with Drupal being unfinished rather than something wrong on your system?
Drupal 6 is working fine for tens of thousands of people. It's as finished as a version of software ever is.
Michelle
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I think you'd want to take a look at your own modifications such as the theme, module or what's changed on your server recently (hosts often makes changes without notification).
Pretty simply if no on else is having the problem then its not a big deal, major issues tend to bubble up and be dealt with quickly. Its not true that features/changes don't go into existing major versions, D6 gets improved with every release.
Why the fake account, that's pretty lame don't you think?
Pimp your Drupal 8 Toolbar - make it badass.
Adaptivetheme - theming system for people who don't code.
I don't have any
I don't have any modifications or themes or any changes at all. I installed it clean, did nothing else. And tested the saving those two pages straight away. And it still had the same 500 error problem.
But it is a big deal if it isn't going to work in internet explorer. I think it must have happened to others, but somehow they know how to deal with it as developers. Or else it hasn't been written down somewhere i can find it.
It's not a fake account. I have tried to use drupal since 2006, getting help for most problems from forums without having to ever sign up and ask for help (that is why I spent so long searching other peoples problems instead of starting my own). But for this problem I just can't find any help, and can't continue with drupal anymore because of it. I didn't have much hope to get a solution, but after putting in so much time learning it. I signed up just to ask about it now.
I have used drupal on this same server without the 500 errors before.
I have given up on drupal a while ago, and come back to it after a few months. So it is possible webhostingbuzz have made some server modifications. But if it causes this problem wouldn't it likely have happened on some other hosting companies too (or even others here may use the same company). And at least someone here would have known about this problem.
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Post an issue in the issue queue.
Pimp your Drupal 8 Toolbar - make it badass.
Adaptivetheme - theming system for people who don't code.
I wouldn't know in which
I wouldn't know in which queue to post. I have looked through lots of the drupal core component queues for days, some weeks ago. Thanks for your replies anyway. I think this is about drupal useability so this page is as good a place as any. I don't think I am going to find a solution to this. So unless there is a helpful response at a later date I will have to just give up drupal for good. I don't need further replies unless people have encountered the problem and found a solution.
I forgot to say, I don't think it can be a server problem, because how could it happen in internet explorer, but then be okay in safari?
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I agree that this is not a usability issue and you should start a forum thread of your own in the post installation forum or place an issue against drupal core with a link to your site so that others can try and help.
my first guess would be something not correct about your .htaccess file but you don't offer near enough information to try and figure it out and it's a specific problem thus shouldn't be discussed in a news and announcements posts. There are other avenues to do so and you should use those.
Hey, I love drupal, and I
Hey, I love drupal, and I don't expect anything from core or module developers, as it's all done for free. But as such, it not just about what the developers want to do with the core, it's about the community of contributed modules and what has happened to happen in the community over time. Drupal 5 is fantastic, soon to be was, unfortunately. there are sites which I've built in drupal 5 which I've since moved on from and which haven't upgraded as they'll lose so much functionality. Drupal 6 is stabilising and getting a decent pool of the 5.x modules compatible now, but this is soon to be eclipsed by drupal 7. I just wanted to say that as a member of the wider drupal user group, who has even, on occasion, paid for module modifications and posted them back on forums, drupal 7 is something I am not looking forward to, as I think it will be like the launch of drupal 6 again, possibly worse.
I liked the suggestion earlier on this forum of allowing new features and changes into the core without changing the module API. Breaking contributed modules puts a lot of work up in smoke which people may not have the time to put in again. You may say, if it's a maintained module they should upgrade it, but hey, we'd all like to have the time, but I've got a job, life, etc, and I'm sure a lot of other people do too, so that sometimes although the functionality of the core increases on an upgrade, practically the functionality of drupal overall decreases.
I don't expect core developers to do anything, but in the same way, core developers can't expect contributed module developers to do anything, either. Just a thought. I suppose if we built a community of people that want to use retro-drupal for increased functionality, we could pool our resources to carry on security fixes for drupal six after drupal 8 comes out. It seems like a long way away, but if you designing and developing big websites for large organisation, it takes ages, and management types want to know a platform with be secure for a long time after it's launched.
amazingi hardly wait my site
amazing
i hardly wait my site will be updated to 7
As a consultant that deploys
As a consultant that deploys Drupal commercially yes, usability is very important. My clients can stop raving about how intuitive drupal is and I find it easier to use than even commercial products that cost thousands of dollars. Looking forward to the new reboot of Drupal.
Dries, broken links in article
Dries,
1. Nothing is unintentional, so why is it that the Drupal.org site has ZERO about D7 on home page?
2. Relatively few "so what is Drupal 7" articles / blog posts on the web. Google brought me to your page here
3. You have broken links here and here in your article above
Thanks
TC
Don't make it worse
I am relativly new to drupal, and I tried only version 6.x, but what I can say so far is that the usability compared to other CMS is really good. Good means: easy setup, easy administration, easy updating! Currently, I like to use drupal as it is.
So, in terms of competion and usability, please don't overdo it.