Pardon my newbieness but IMHO it seems there is a disease that plauges the Open source community and from the two weeks that I have spent trying to do things with this software - that drupal is in no way immune.
No offense but the power and hard work that you people put into this project becomes moot if the avg joe smoe can't get up and going.
Unless this is an elitist club or something.
What is the problem with giving DETAILED instructions?
When someone comes to this forum and asks - How do I place banners at the top of the page?
Someone replies - Just use the banner module.
Great thanks for lending a helping hand - I know you mean well - but you didn't answer the question.
Or the reply comes - I did it using this mod and that node.
Great thanks for lending a helping hand - I know you mean well - but you didn't answer the question.
The question is HOW
What did you do?
What steps did you take?
What code did you generate?
Where EXACTLY did you place the code in the temp - (as in between what two tags.)
Maybe its just me - (so I will speak for just me) although I sense the same thing from other newbie posts that I read in here.
When someone comes in here and asks a question on how to do something it is generally because they have exhausted their brain on tying to accomplish it on their own (and yes they spent a day or two searching through the forum to no avail) so they come in here and post the question looking for someone who has been there and done that to help them get through this bump in the road.
This is a silent killer like High Blood Pressure in almost EVERY open source community that I have tried to use their software.
Unanswered post....
Short Answers to problems...
Incomplete directions....
Inconsistent directions....
Wrong directions
NO directions
etc. etc.
Again this may be just me but it seems that almost ALL programmers without fail answer questions as if the are talking to another programmer. But most people seek CMS's because they have yet to aquire programming skills. And php has about as much meaning as pcp to a non techie. Thats why they asked the question about what would seem so obvious.
Sometimes it makes you want to D R O P A L L.
I've locked this thread, it was leading nowhere. Gerhard
Comments
Motives
What makes you think people work on Drupal just so that Joe Schmoe can use it?
Everyone in the Drupal community is an individual, with their own goals, motives and desires. Treating Drupal as a magic wishing well is the best way to get ignored.
If the poster needs and wants to be held by the hand every step of the way, then it is obvious that they do not want to put any effort into the problem themselves. They will not do any research themselves and will not learn. Thus, they will not become more productive members of the community. I call those people leeches, and I ignore them.
If you can't deal with this community model, hire a consultant and pay them to answer your questions and/or solve your problems. Easy enough.
--
If you have a problem, please search before posting a question.
If the poster needs and
I strongly disagree. You are making a lot of assumptions here very casually. Expecting detailed directions does not mean that people are unwilling to learn or that they are leeches,as you are suggesting.
Reading and comprehension
I guess you (Steven) would just be an example of the plague in live and in living color.
Before I take your suggestion on searching - Let me suggest to you that you actually read a persons post before you respond to it.
Other wise you should take your own advice and ignore it.
Its obvious by others people response that I wasn't spitting in to the wind - I was merely making an observation - An observation that is not off in left field because I made the observation from searching on diff subjects and looking at the responses made.
Not to mention that this is the USABILITY forum not a question and answer forum.
BTW this observation was not limited to Drupal it is something that seems to be across the board in the Open Source community.
But you would have to read my post to get that but then again since I am speaking LEECH you might not understand what I was/am saying.
I'm sorry but this (Steven's
I'm sorry but this (Steven's comment) is just about elitist as it gets. Because Steven, one day the person YOU help may just be able to help others that stumble upon this software package. Because everyone is a newbie at one stage or another and your comments are just so far off the mark it is not funny. I have kept my mouth closed about comments such as these ever since coming into the Drupal community but, as a newbie, have gratefully accepted help from those more knowledgable. And yes, as a result of the help given I have been able to answer a couple of queries myself. But I have read many comments by a select few that basically berate any newbie because they asked a simple question. May I suggest you climb down from your high horse and open up to those who do try to help themselves BUT still require a little assistance.
The problem is not asking
The problem is not asking questions but the way they are asked and the efford which was put into the research beforehand.
--
Proud to be elitist
Drupal services
My Drupal services
--
Drupal services
My Drupal services
Well Mr Proud Elitist
There is an old saying that goes a little something like...
What was that...
Ah yes..
That's it.
Pride goes before a fall.
If I wanted to go to reasearch class I wouldn't have come to drupal.
JUST WRITE DETAILED INSTUCTIONS.
Or do you need to take an instruction writing class?
"JUST WRITE DETAILED
"JUST WRITE DETAILED INSTUCTIONS."
I thought humans got rid of slavery a while ago, no?
We might need instruction writing classes but you could certainly use a web etiquette one.
So there we have it.
If you want to compare the two -
I have web etiquette - I just may seem to you that I chose not to use it in this instance.
But choosing not to write instructions -
Well that would be another matter now wouldn't it.
Apples - Oranges wouldn't you say?
Why should I spend my time
Why should I spend my time to write detailed instructions for you? I don't have the impression you'd deserve this service. Especially considering that our instructions are fairly detailed already. If you fail to grasp them, that isn't our fault.
--
Proud to be elitist.
Drupal services
My Drupal services
--
Drupal services
My Drupal services
Your Right -
You shouldn't do it for me.
But as all elitist do in all elitist clubs - you sit high and try to determine who deserves what.
Tisk Tisk
I wont even take the time to deal with this type of mindset.
In Steven's defense...
The fact is he's right; there are 'leechers' around here, and they do hurt the project (as well as the people who work so hard on it).
There are generally two types of users who need help.
The first kind will start with the basics. They'll download the software, read the documentation that comes with it, and make an honest attempt at doing things themselves first. When they get stuck, they'll use the search engine, they'll check out the handbook, they'll browse around the modules list. They'll take time to check out other peoples' posts, to lurk in the community for awhile, learn how people interact and how everything works. By doing so, they'll pick up how to phrase questions in such a way that they're more likely to get a useful response, and thus naturally tend to get their questions answered with more frequency and precision. This same type of user is far more likely to help other users when they come across questions that they've had to puzzle through themselves, and much more likely to commit long-term to projects like documentation, which will help other users along the way. We LOVE these users, and most will go out of our way to help them.
The second type of user more than expects, DEMANDS that their needs be met, with as little effort on their part as possible. If Drupal doesn't do something they want it to do, the way they want to do it, and yesterday, then the Drupal software sucks and the community is a bunch of idiots who obviously don't know how to code. This type of user is much more likely to solve their problems through ranting and raving until someone finally caves and gives them what they want, and then they'll leave, never to contribute anything to the project apart from the hateful posts in their wake. These types of users, I believe, is who Steven was referring to when he mentioned "leechers." And these types people ARE leechers; they take from the project without giving anything back, and they hurt the community and the people in it that strive so hard to make it improve.
If the OP does not see himself as a leecher, then he should probably change his approach. I guarantee if you try and act as the first type of user, you will get far better results around here.
Dumb and Dumber
Listening to Eminem- saying
"I am what you say I am -
If I wasn't then why would I say I am."
I mean you guys are so smart to write software now you can read minds and judge character.
WOOOOOWWWWW!
Why do you do this stuff for free?
You should have done like Bill Gates and got paid to write such "great software."
And then you would have turned some of us dumb leeches into dumber by making us pay for it.
Heh. I guarantee you aren't
Heh. I guarantee you aren't getting very far with that approach.
Really
I would say I am getting pretty far.
But then again you would have to know what I was aming at to know if I hit the target or not.
What do you think?
Here''s a clue (It doesn't invole banner placement)
Umm...
You don't seem to need anyone's help.
Ummmmmmm -
You seem to be getting the point.
It is not neccisarily that I do not need help.
It is just that I did not start this particular thread as a covert temper tantrum to get help.
Hi REEP,
Hi REEP,
I get what you're saying, I really do. When you first start out using something like Drupal it can be pretty daunting. But you do have to bear in mind that the folk who give their support here are doing so freely in their own time, and sometimes it's just not possible to give that amount of detail to a really 'simple' question.
There is an assumption (in my view anyway, and its just that) that if want to use OS software you try and solve the problems yourself before asking for help.
To take your example of the question "how do I place banners at the top of the page?" - the answer "use the banner module" seems about right to me.
Now, if the question was "I've installed the banner module, I've tried to do 'x' and I've done 'y' and it's not working, what else could I try" that may get a more detailled response.
Drupal is a fantastic piece of software, but you do have to make an investment in learning how to use it (unless of course you want to pay someone to do it for you).
I'm not a programmer, but I'm learning every day. When I have a problem I search the forums, I try Google and then I have a go myself. When I can't get any further that way I ask for help. People here have always been fantastically helpful when they can and it's one of the main reasons that I'm using Drupal rather than any other CMS.
Sometimes I get a response in minutes, sometime in days, sometimes not at all. But I do know that if I ask the right question, and someone can help me, they will.
Gonz
Learning curve
Hmm. I am trying to (belatedly) learn to cook right about now. And you know what? I'm frustrated.
I take a book and try to figure out how to make mashed potatos. The recipe is about three sentences long, one of which is the pithy "add salt to taste". Gee, thanks. However, what I really wanted to know was HOW MUCH bloody salt I have to put for the potatoes to be "to taste", and not over- or under- salted.
I mean, those cookbook authors spend so much time writing those books and they can't even make sure that an average geek can make something edible by following their recipes?!
Unless this is an elitist club or something.
So. I give up on books and go ask my mom for a cake recipe. She gives me reasonable instructions with just a little bump in the road when she gets to soda and vinegar ("add a little soda and mix it with some vinegar" -- "huh? how much?" -- "just a tiny bit, to make it all react"). But the real kicker comes at the end of this (mostly helpful) advice: "bake until it's ready". WHAAAAT?! My own mother?! All attempts to get more precise information on how long I am supposed to burn the stupid thing bounced off the universal "you'll know when it's ready" reply. Well, I didn't know when it was ready. Results: Burnt cake (one). Angry geek (one). Dirty kitchen utensils (approaching infinity). Kitchen utensils with burnt bottom (1)
Almost EVERY cookbook author and have-been-cooking-since-I-was-in-kindergarden-ha-ha type family members give cooking advise like they are talking to a fellow french chef in cryptic code to try to prevent the trade secrets from leaking to mere mortals.
Most people by the "Cooking for dummies" books because they do not yet know how to cook. And "simmer" has as much meaning as grphrchgrgrgr to someone who does not cook.
I so feel your pain. Sometimes, it just makes you want to drop it all, too!
Vague questions
I guess I can understand what you are saying about being vague.
But to me the question is not that vague.
How do you place banners at the top of the page is pretty specific.
Using the banner module has a response tells me half of the question.
It tells me how to get banners on to the site - but it doesn’t tell me how to get them where I want- which was at the top of the page.
Now unless I downloaded the wrong banner module. It doesn't say a whole lot about placement in the directions. And it doesn't say anything at all about placing it at the top of the page.
Which if I was an experienced user - this question would say to me –
This person has more than likely installed the banner module and was able to get it working but they are having a little trouble placing banners specifically at the top of their page.
Not this person is a lazy leech that doesn't know how to do a search.
But that just me.
The thing is
All those critisisms you make of the answers that get given could easily be turned around and made of most of the questions.
It is very hard to answer a vague question with an exact answer.
And then it is a waste of everyones time if the answerer spends 25mins writing a dissertation full of background info and detailed steps, when chances are either that the questioner already knows most of the steps required (because they've already done some of that before) and just needed a pointer about where to look. Or because the question was a little vague, that 25mins was spent on an irrelevant red herring. Those 25mins could've been spent giving 5 other users guidance towards solving their own problems.
It is far better to point users in the right direction than spoon feed them. They learn more themselves that way, and it frees up more of the finite resources here that do answer peoples questions, then those better educated users can then help out here afterwards too.
As I suppose in answering this post, I've also wasted time that I could've spent helping other users out.
It's not an elitist club - voluntary resources are finite, the software is free. What more do you expect? Maybe you should see what it's like on the other side of the support fence.
--
Anton
In addition
Thanks Styro,
It's as if you've written the post I planned to write. I've just one addition to make: although some people accuse the forum module of being crappy, it's not so crappy that posters are limited to one post per thread.
If an answer is not sufficiently detailed nothing stops the original poster from asking for more information (example). Dialogues are much more efficient and effective than monologues.
--
Tips for posting to the forums.
When your problem is solved, please post a follow-up to the thread you started.
Objectivity is the key
It would not be a waste of time if a dissertation was available in the first place.
There would probably be less questions that would waste less of everybodies time all together.
Every baby needs to be spoon fed for a certain time.
As time goes on their confidence grows and they learn to feed themselves.
This kind of mentality is the kind that will push a child who doesn't know how to swim in the deep end of the pool and say - well if they really want to learn to swim they will swim to the side and crawl out but if they drown it was because they really didn't want to learn and then say - well the swim lessons were free what more do you want.
Since you don't know my background I will just chalk your comment about the other side of the fence up to ignorance.
I have worked as the helpdesk for the faculty and staff of a major college and frequently we had calls about computers and things not working and the first question in our list of things to ask before we sent a technician out was -
DID YOU TURN THE POWER ON?
Believe it or not - 20% to 30% of the people would say AHHHHH- yeah - Right - Ok - Thanks and hang up.
Now it would be easy for me to think of them as lazy leeches who probably cheated in school to get their PHD else they would know how to do something so simple as turn the power on.
Or I could be a little more objective and realize that they are educators and not technologist.
But one thing is for sure It only took them once to learn that lesson. They never called again with a problem without the power being on first.
Hince no time was ever wasted with that person again on solving that problem particular problem.
But when objectivity is the point you won't ask why companies waste the time to put instructions like
For an Iron
"Do not use Iron on clothes that you are wearing."
or
For a chainsaw
"Do not try to stop chainsaw with your hands."
You are still missing the point(s)
Not at all. Nobody is going to drown if the don't fully understand the first answer they get if it only points them in the right direction. They are free to ask another question like "ok, I had a look at x but didn't understand y about it...", and get some more help with that. It's not a sink or swim thing at all - it a good way of making sure the help they get is tailored to the exact problem they have. It can take quite a few questions and answers before anyone even really understands what the problem actually is.
The person answering might not even know the answer - I've helped numerous people with problems that I didn't know the answer to. I've just pointed them to a concept that might help them, and most of the time it does. I usually also have no idea what skill level the person asking the question is at. They all seem grateful for that guidance - noone gets upset that that I couldn't give them a step by step set of instructions.
Also missing my point. I've also had tech support jobs - and that's not what I was talking about. That was a job - you were (presumably) paid to sit there all day and answer questions.
Here the people answering questions are doing it on their own time out of the goodness of their hearts and willingness to give back to the community that created the codebase they are using. They don't have to answer anyones questions - they are free to pick and choose who they answer and how they answer.
It's an open source project. You are getting millions of dollars of development effort for free. In the support forums people are getting hours of other peoples own free time for free. Thousands of hours of peoples free time has gone into the documentation, which has to be constantly kept up to date. All these resources are finite.
What more do you want? The right not to have to do any research of your own? The right to dictate to others how they should spend their own free time supporting you?
Short answers guiding people to find the right solution themselves is the most effective and efficent solution all round. I can answer more queries and solve more problems that way for the same amount of effort. It is far more scalable. And nearly everybody I help doesn't have a problem with that.
It drives me nuts when someone calls all this volunteer effort 'elitist', then doesn't understand why those volunteers object to (being insulted like) that.
--
Anton
Styro, I am sorry to jump
Styro, I am sorry to jump in.
You have very valid points and I do agree that the first poster could have put things in a better way, but there is simply no excuse for the kind of statements that Steven made. I hate to say it, but Steven's post comes across exactly as 'elitist', almost arrogant.
I find it paradoxical that he chose to say he doesn't care for the users when he has done so much work on improving Drupal search. If that wasn't in response to repeated user demands, what else was it?
Personally, I have great respect for all those who give their time to Drupal in different ways. Often, when I work on my sites, I actually mentally thank the developers who make Drupal's magic possible. But, as a non-coder, it really hurts to see statements such as the one Steven made. This is not the first time we have seen such stuff on these forums and that's the sad part.
OK
After reading Stevens post again in a different context, you're probably right.
I was responding to the original posters criticism of the 'quality' of answers they were getting to questions which was somewhat unrelated to Stevens answer.
Note: the 'you' in the following bit isn't aimed at anyone in particular... :)
The people answering these questions aren't a panel of paid experts - they are your fellow users. They may actually know less than you do about Drupal. They will usually have no idea of how much you know. They are just relating some of their own experiences with similar (but possibly slightly different) problems. They may not even know any detailed steps to solve your problem. Chances are that they won't even know what your problem is without asking a few questions of their own. Only a few of them will be actually be programmers anyway. But their contribution is still valuable, and to be encouraged not criticised. The ability of people to find help in these forums hinges on the participation of the user community helping each other out. Making it harder and far more time consuming to answer questions is just going to discourage people from doing so. Would you prefer silence to inexact pointers?
If an answer you get doesn't make complete sense, feel free to ask for a clarification. Don't be afraid to state upfront what your ability level is, or what your assumptions are etc.
You aren't requesting service in these forums, you are having a conversation with your fellow users. It's a community not a helpdesk.
And please, have a go at answering some other users questions. Don't be afraid, most people are very appreciative of any help or ideas they get even if it doesn't end up solving their problem.
There - I think I'm all ranted out now :)
--
Anton
The only point that is being missed.
Is that is that there needs to be.
COMPREHENSIVE DETAILED INSTRUCTIONS FROM DAY -4 as in negative 4
WHILE IT IS STILL A BRAIN CHILD.
BEFORE IT GOES INTO PRODUCTION -
BEFORE IT GETS RELEASED.
BEFORE A HUNT N PECKER GETS WIND OF IT.
I will say this again in case you missed it. Since this is not the question and answer forum I did not start this thread to rant or fuss someone into giving up the goods on banner placement.
If I read correctly this particular thread is about USUABILITY or should I say the LACK THERE OF.
I can care less whether you or anyone else thinks I am leech.
The Bible says several things that whether your a Christian or not just make good common sense.
1 - Faithful are the wounds of friend (because they will tell you the truth)
2. An open rebuke is better than secret love. (its like holding up a mirror to you instead of a board.)
3. Iron shapeneth Iron. (Meaning everyone is bettered by a difference of opinion some time.)
In other words - you may not like what I am saying - you may not appreciate that I had the audacity to say it or even the way that I chose to convey the message.
But here is a news flash.
It doesn't change the fact that it is unnecessarily hard to use drupal
Forget "okay I tried x but I don't understand about it.” – If it works for you fine.
Getting Drupal OR ANY OTHER OPEN SOURCE going shouldn't be like pulling teeth.
JUST RIGHT SOME DETAILED INSTRUCTIONS.
The fact that it is free is no excuse to make it hard to use.
To be just brutally frank it is just being down right lazy. It takes more time to go back 4 versions down the road to try to remember what happened.
It is not that hard.
Create a step
Write the instructions
Create a step
Write the instructions
If you or Steve or anyone else for that matter are so naive that you think this product is so great that you can just over look what the Joe Smoe Hunt n Pecker says about
Good luck at winning the Noble peace prize.
But then again if OBJECTIVITY is not the goal.
Keep doing what you are doing like your doing it.
P.S. (an old proverb says)
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
B.T.W. F.Y.I.
I got paid to do tech support not sit and answer the phone.
We implemented the phone calls to cut down on wasting valuable time on such calls as not knowing to turn the power on.
HINT HINT
FREE doesn’t have to mean CHEAP OR LOUSY when it comes to instructions.
I know I should just bite my tongue...
How about: "Heaven helps those that help themselves"?
I think the thing you are missing is that every month or so like clockwork some new user who hasn't posted before comes down from Mt Sinai with a bunch of commandments about how we should bow down before them and change our wicked ways then repent our usability sins. They then berate us about what we need to do, if this software is ever going to succeed and how we are so closed minded we can't see their fantastic vision.
It gets tedious - especially when that user has no perspective of what is being done in that area, what progress has already been made, or realises that many of the smart people actually doing something about it have far more insight into usability than they ever will do. Let alone the fact that the rapid exponential growth of the Drupal community indicates that the software is actually succeeding and it can't be that hard.
The reason Steven comes across the way he does is that he has probably answered more of these posts than anyone. It is rare for one of these posters to ever start contributing back.
Don't worry I will. You can look through my posting history if you like - there are 13 pages of newbies that haven't had a problem with it.
You make it sound like that was a design objective.
You make it sound like there isn't a mailing list full of hard working volunteers doing just that.
I've written a tiny handful of pages for the handbook - trust me, it is a lot more effort than it first seems. The people that are writing lots of pages are doing a great job without much thanks.
I don't think you realise how wide the scope of Drupal is. It is an extensible framework, not a self contained product. It is physically impossible to fully document every step of every possible usage - people are inventing new usages daily. Ideas are being refined constantly in a fluid environment, and no documentation effort will ever be able to keep up.
Nobody is saying that things are perfect, there is always room for improvement.
Now are you part of the problem or part of the solution? Because whining sure isn't part of the solution. Do you have any concrete ideas about how to improve documentation?
--
Anton
Your Right
You should have just bit your tongue
Some how I don't see Jesus only helping those who help themselves.
One in particular would be the man who had NO ONE to help him into the pool - But that's just me.
I could go on but N.E.Way.
If EVERY MONTH like clockwork the same thing happens.
It seems like you just might want to take note.
But hey don't take it from me - take it from all those who came down the MANY MANY MANY MONTHS before me --
Hmmmm let me count now - How many months has this project been going on?
Lets make a deal - I will quit talking about the problem if you stop acting like it doesn't exist.
There has already been enough posters IN THIS THREAD ALONE who knew exactly what I was talking about to prove that it does exist so you are not showing how smart you are or how great the project is or how much work is being put in to it or how much progress has been made be calling it whining.
If your 2 year old child (assuming you have at least one) started "whining" to you about hunger would you slap them and say - Can't you see how hard I'm working to put food on the table for you?
Dont answer that
Now you have been using this software for 13 pages worth of insight yet - you fail to see the need of detailed instructions.
I have been using it for two weeks and just made an observation about the Open Source Community in at large (Drupal included). And you take offense. Might I suggest that….
IF THE SHOE DON'T FIT DON'T TRY TO PUT IT ON.
But what I have found in my short experience is that if you throw a stone a way down in da valley and some one yells out ouch
Its dem it hit.
This is not a command to bow down to some NEW fantastic vision - this is not even a call for perfection - This is more so saying that there is a fantastic vision but there are a few t's in fantastic that need to be crossed and a few i's in vision that need to be dotted.
Everyone who makes that suggestion may not have the ability to contribute back - but I guess you never thought of that one huh.
Inventing new usage everyday is great - documenting it everyday is greater.
I can't be a part of the problem because I can't stop production of the software nor can I maliciously hack into someone’s drupal site to mess it up.
The only thing I can do is resort to unconventional methods to raise the awareness of a problem to some uppity elitists looking down their noses on us newbies because we can't jump has high as they can.
What I am saying can be a part of the solution though.
What part of there is a need for detailed instructions did you not understand.
Or better yet
What part of I already agreed to join the documentation team did you miss.
You eletist should not stick your noses so high in the air
You might bump into something or fall down the stairs or get into a car wreck one day.
Or better yet
You just might need it to smell.
:)
contribute: you will provide the solution ...
I have been using Drupal for about six weeks.
Having researched many tools, both commercial and open source, I decided on Drupal because it works and believe it or not, its documentation is better than average, and better than commercial companies that won't give you any support at all without first paying them hundreds of dollars with no guarantee of a decent response.
As I have begun learning Drupal, I have thought I should start a blog about all the ~detailed~ things I have learned about Drupal simply by using it, trying to use, and learning how to use it. Learning software is, IMO, like learning a musical instrument. It is important to dive in, to do things, to try things, to experiment with features, to explore the product. Often the detailed answers you are looking for would come naturally to you in the course of using a feature or module to achieve a minor or even major goal. As part of my suggestion above, I have built numerous test sites in the course of learning Drupal. Many people on this thread have made good points about a complex set of issues.
I am just another Drupal user like any other. I am a relatively new user at that with six weeks work invested into it. If you read my posts you will find that some of them are critical. Not all my posts are gung ho.
Like many others, when I see topic I think I can answer based on real experience and knowledge of the product, I try to lend a hand.
If things were different in the structure of my life I could imagine lending support to coding the product itself. For example, there are some architectural issues I think could be improved. But rather than complain, isn't it more constructive to provide constructive suggestions, and even more important to volunteer to lend a hand?
Why not volunteer to write 'HOW TO' articles about Drupal once you have learned various aspects of it? Isn't that the spirit behind open source software and the freedom of usage it provides?
After using Drupal a while I have determined that I can't image using a closed product without source code to develop an internet, web hosted project.
Also, overall, I think Drupal implements a great set of concepts for driving web sites with content powerfully isolated from its presentation.
spritefully yours
spritefully yours
Technical assistance provided to the Drupal community on my own time ...
Thank yous appreciated ...
Rather than dive into specifics, I offer an analogy
When you deal with a purchased product, that company is like your dog. You have commands, and it responds. "I need help!" you say, and it responds (hopefully).
With open source, the analogy is more like we're all cats. You cannot herd cats. You cannot order cats around, or teach cats tricks or even expect cats to obey. But cats can be great companions and very helpful. Cats can work together. Cats can even follow rules and do what's expected of them when it comes to the important things. To get a cat to cooperate, it takes a different tack, a different approach, and different expectations.
I hope you don't find this response to be dismissive. I ran into much frustration when I first started dealing with open source communities and did not get the kinds of responses I expected. I can understand where you're coming from.
Here's the hard work part: Most of the questions anyone asks have been asked before. A search can reveal not only the answers you sought, but also might reveal to you something you had not thought of. This is how I learned Drupal. It's not the only way, just one way.
Certainly there are things that this community here could learn. But we are what we are ... cats. Independent minded. Into our own projects. But we're not always as aloof as we may seem. Speaking for myself, I have not answered any of your questions because I've not seen them. I try to answer people's questions, because people answered my n00b questions back in the day (not so long ago). But I don't live here, and I have a living to make and a life to live.
Laura
_____ ____ ___ __ _ _
pingVision, LLC • BlogHer • rare pattern • scattered sunshine
_____ ____ ___ __ _ _
Laura Scott :: design » blog » tweet
I love the analogy
Really... I know both, cat and open-source mentality but it just never connected that they are one and the same.
Thank you!
I'm with reep
Reep echoes my experience too. I can see that people have put in enormous amounts of work to make drupal happen. And to offer help to others.
But I have had the same experience (not on drupal.org as I have only just signed up) of getting geeky responses that assume a lot of knowledge on my part. I know some basic html but was assured that I would be able to manage Drupal.
I am sure that I will. But not without much frustration and without detailed useful instructions. For example, I am installing acidfree. So I think I will just install the module. I find in the instructions that I need to install file manager module first. I then find that I need to change a line of code in filemanager. This is where I call in (paid) tech help who has as much difficulty as me in trying to figure it out.
There is much useful documentation on drupal.org but with large gaps for the beginner.
The documentation team could use your help
Believe it or not, the Documentation team has been working on these kinds of issues for a year now -- working to make the handbooks clearer and more helpful for the many levels of user here on Drupal.org. If you think it has gaps now, you should have seen it a year ago. The challenge is that Drupal is a very powerful CMS with many nuances and details -- especially for the Drupal community, which ranges from power programmer to hunt-and-peck typists with no computer experience beyond sitting down that day to try going on "the internets."
What's often very helpful in this ongoing documentation effort is the beginner's perspective. I know that often when I explain things, I run the risk of assuming knowledge that isn't in fact shared. People in the midst of learning Drupal are in fact in great positions to help improve the documentation.
Joining the team is easy and free. You can start by joining the email list.
Laura
_____ ____ ___ __ _ _
pingVision, LLC • BlogHer • rare pattern • scattered sunshine
_____ ____ ___ __ _ _
Laura Scott :: design » blog » tweet
Arguing for the Solution
I am all about being part of the solution.
I was just making it plain that there was a problem. I am sure as this post has proved that there are others out there who just might not have been up for saying something about.
Knowing and admitting that there is one is more than half of the battle of solving it.
I will take the steps to join the team.
P.S.
I'll do it for free.
No, HERE is the problem.
There are now over 50,000 registered users to Drupal.org.
There are 179 contributors to documentation.
That means only 0.358% of Drupal's user base has contributed back documentation. That's right. Not even one percent.
It takes ZERO effort to complain about this problem. Zero. Zip. Zilch. None. It also takes zero effort to point an accusatory, insulting, and commanding finger at other people and say, "YOU should be doing this." Both of these tactics also have ZERO effectiveness.
What WILL be effective is taking the difficulties you've had with Drupal, figuring them out either by yourself or with the help of other people and then contribute back the documentation you feel is lacking. That is THE only way this problem gets solved.
It's time for you to decide what kind of user you are. We will know by your actions from here on out. If you continue to use this post as a platform to insult people, make digs at the community, and so on, then I guess Steven was right about his initial impressions about you. But maybe you'll surprise us all, and contribute the best newbie-level documentation Drupal has ever seen. I'm really hoping it's the latter. I guess we'll soon see.
Suprise.
Since I was not only talking only about the Drupal community (which I made clear more than once) I think I will suprise you and not even take the time to reply to your post.
I already agreed to join the documentation team.
Or did you miss that 2
One suggestion
If you do need to ask questions, don't be afraid to spell out what your experience level is, and what you've already tried. That would help the answerers tailor their responses.
Otherwise you'd probably get replies aimed at the average Drupal user.
And don't worry - modules that require you to change code are pretty rare these days.
--
Anton
Did you read the INSTALL?
I assume, of course, that you in your two days of searching you looked at the detailed instructions that ship with the banner module? See http://cvs.drupal.org/viewcvs/drupal/contributions/modules/banner/INSTAL...
From the directions
1. WARNING:
2. Preparation:
3. Installation:
4. Configuration:
5. Uploading graphical banners:
6. Uploading text advertisements:
7.Displaying banners and text ads from blocks:
8. Displaying multiple ads on one page:
9. Displaying banners and text ads from your theme:
Find additional installation tips in the banner module mailing list
archives: http://www.kerneltrap.org/mailman/listinfo/drupal-banner
Ok for humors sake lets say I read the directions to fast the first time and missed the heading section that deals with PLACEMENT.
I am open for correction - however the only thing I read that remotely touched the subject was this.
14) To display a banner from your theme, you will need to modify the theme. How this is done is different for each theme. Essentially though, you need to add a call to banner_display() in the appropriate place. (Finding the appropriate place is the challenge.)
Emphasis supplied.
Now it does say something about displaying them using blocks.
But the deff of blocks
Blocks are the boxes of related/grouped data that are visible in the left and/or right sidebar(s) of your web site. These are usually generated automatically by modules (e.g. recent forum topics), but administrators can also create their own defined blocks.
So what was the orignal question?
How do you place banners at the top of the page?
I just used banner placement as an example but I could have used directory_module placement or any other number of things that do not have CLEAR INSTRUCTIONS OR DIRECTIONS ON SPECIFIC QUESTIONS.
Call it vague - Call it leech - Call it what ever you want.
But the fact of the matter is
Oh never mind.
Thanks
I understand what you are/were trying to do.
But banner placement is not my goal here.
I don't know how to express it any other way.
D E T A I L E D I N S T R U C T I O N S
Is the point.
Detailed instructions take time
A lot of time. We have some of them on our support site. Here's the one for banners, which has detailed instructions for both blocks and editing your theme.
I took about an hour to add some basic instructions into the handbook -- see Adding banners to your site as well as the description of the Banner module.
I encourage you to take at least the same amount of time improving the start I have made, as well as providing comments and creating your own handbook pages to extend the documentation.
The reason there aren't more detailed instructions is because people don't take the time to write them, but instead spend time debating why a free, open source, volunteer driven project doesn't include detailed step-by-step instructions. We are a community, please become part of it and contribute. Thanks.
Forum answers
I believe the original post was about the detail of answers on the forum (peer support), not necessarily the handbook.
--
Tips for posting to the forums.
When your problem is solved, please post a follow-up to the thread you started.
All the more reason
Detailed instructions *do not belong in the forums* -- that's what handbook pages are for, and anyone can create a new page, much as I have done with my response.
Exactly!
Exactly the point Styro (above) is trying to get across :-)
When someone asks for help and gets an answer that doesn't match his/her 'level', I think it's easy (and no problem) to ask for more information/help.
--
Tips for posting to the forums.
When your problem is solved, please post a follow-up to the thread you started.
THANK YOU HEINE
FOR ACTUALLY READING MY FIRST POST.
I made very general statements about some of my experiences in the Open source community as a whole and then brought it home to drupal by using the banner module as an example.
I appreciate the instructions on the banner module.
But I didn't start the thread for that.
Somebody said I wasn't getting very far with my approach.
But like I said you would have to know what I am/was aiming for.
Thanks Borris Man
Thanks Laura
That's pretty good for a newbie - I seriously doubt this much attention would be paid to the actual observation by just asking for directions at every bend and curve in the road. That is a waste of time and not really dealing with problem.
The problem is we newbies need a detailed map before we start the journey so that we don't have to bother those gifted people who write the software so much.
The modern society is so used to dealing with symptoms when it comes to illness that they never ever actually deal with what causes the symptoms.
This why you have chronic/life long/ and incurable diseases
BECAUSE WE RARELY IF EVER DEAL WITH THE CAUSE.
In med school we called it reasoning from cause to effect
But hey everyone has different standards.
Newbie power :)
To keep with the analogy
In medschool we also have something called 'bedside manners'.
What are/were you aiming for?
--
Tips for posting to the forums.
When your problem is solved, please post a follow-up to the thread you started.
To deal with a cause/problem,
Sometime bedside manners need drastic measures
Have you ever watched HOUSE - if not I suggest you take a serious look at it some time.
Like I said - I started with VERY GENERAL statements about the Open Source Community as a whole.
The creative mind could look at it this way.
I found a colorful way to say -
Hey Guys and Gals - there seems to be a problem in the open source community at large with documentation to get newbies started. Drupal seems to be a great program - Lets not make drupal another statistic.
But if I would have just started a thread like that - who would have listened?
Tell the truth would you or Steve or Styro or whoever even responded.
Probably not because as Steve so clearly pointed out everyone has their own agenda and their own problems to solve.
Since I don't think of myself as a cat or a dog I will put it like this
It is much like a person who is frantically ranting about something - sometimes they just need to be slapped so that you can get their attention and they can hear you.
Or if you can't identify with that analogy.
It is much like a wife who keeps telling her husband we need to go get counseling and he keeps putting her off for months until he comes home one day and she is gone with the children. Then he is ready to go get counseled
Or if you can't identify with that analogy.
It is like how you are told to take aspirin for a headache when 9 times out of 10 the cause is you haven't had enough water.
Why - the brain is the only major organ that blood has to fight gravity to get to so when your blood is thick from lack of water and you are using it to think it is like a car with not enough oil - it starts to get hot and warp and throb.
Sure I can make a quick dollar and tell you take two of these and call me in the morning but we didn't deal with the cause.
We only dealt with the symptom.
I disagree
You have achieved nothing positive, nor did you deal with a problem. Everyone can join the documentation team or improve the handbook (see HOWTO: become involved). We even have a page devoted to the HOWTO: Enact change within the Drupal community.
There's no need to start of the way you did. In fact, it's likely to be counter productive; You've insulted several members of the doc team, our local Summer of Code 'Harry Potter', who has been invaluable to the project and cares a lot about userfriendliness and several people always willing to provide support (Styro), do an extraordinary amount of work to maintain the site, CVS & lots more (killes) or spend entire weekends reorganizing the handbook (Sepeck) or making themes & patches, maintaining the site etc (Steven), to name just a few.
Would I have replied? Probably. Would you have gotten further? Achieved more? Probably. Many people here are willing to help with improving Drupal docs. But not in this way. To give you an example; I am not really looking forward to work with you, from what I've seen in this thread. I'm afraid you're only trolling (with a certain degree of success).
Fortunately (weak memory), I won't hold a grudge (for long) and I maintain the hope that your future contributions will be more productive, positive and contain less tiresome, inflammatory analogies. If that's not possible: *plonk*
Now let's hope this thread dies a soft death as per the Tips for posting to the forums:
Incidentally, your OP concerned replies to questions in the forum: peer (!) support, not documentation.
--
Tips for posting to the forums.
When your problem is solved, please post a follow-up to the thread you started.
Yeah let this Achilles heel die.
Yeah - opinions are like door knobs you know.
Whether you think it is postive or not doesn't really mean anything.
I made an observation about an Achilles heel.
Just because you or anyone else didn't like my observaton doesn't make it wrong or counter productive.
The fact is you don't know me from a nickname and the other 23 letters of the alphabet. You don't know anything about me except that you don't like the way I started a thread in a forum.
Outside of a drupal arena you might buy something from me or come to me for counseling or because of a sickness. I would say that pretty much disqualifies you of being a judge.
You have tips on how to ask questions.
But mine and many many others have tips on on how to answer them or even create detailed documentation that would negate the asking of some of the question in the first place.
Which one makes more sense?
It's called a circular argument.
Some Will - Some Won't - So What.
You waste more time talking about a poster that you disagree with. If it is so wrong - Just ignore it.
There are so many post and threads of this nature it is no wonder you or anyone else would get offended.
If I spent so much time and attention trying to work on the poster that I didn't agree with instead of working on the obvious problems that are being presented in that post than I guess I would be insulted also.
I mean it had to take some TIME to type out that "don't feed the troll" sign in that other thread. I am sure you helped someone with that.
I see where people mistakenly look at drupal as a messed up program but they are mistaken.
It is not drupal at all - drupal is just a program. It can not do or be anything more that what it was design to be.
drupal is doing what it is designed to.
It is the elitist attitudes of those who work on drupal that give it such a foul ordor.
drupal is like a beautiful woman (software program) with somewhat of a bad attitude (some of the programmers who work on it).
You can let it die
But what about when the next person comes along complaining and whining about this Achilles heel that you keep tryin to ignore.
Your sign was very interesting though because I read this in wikipedia about you trolls.
Please
Thank you.
More ASCII art from http://jni.sdf-eu.org/trolls.html
--
Tips for posting to the forums.
When your problem is solved, please post a follow-up to the thread you started.
I guess that means you are going to go hungry
sigh
This is a four day old account with one post. This one. It appears that it is a new account designed specifically to attack people and the project in general with inflamitory language and attacks on virtually every response. I have to wonder if this is a pseudonum for one of our previous trolls.
You want improvements from people you don't pay? Then in the spirit of Open Source, download, learn, ask reasonable questions and contribute back documentation in areas you see gaps. This is the only way anything will improve. Through the voluntary efforts of members of the community.
Attacks and trolling are counter productive to a community in general and destructive in the extreme. It distracts form work that could be done and divides a community. It is rude and disrespectful. Your comments to and about people who substantially contributed the work to this project are offensive.
The 'Open Source' comunity is a vast and diverse assemblage of people and projects. Support is given on a voluntary and as contributed basis.
By your wording and choice of phrases, it appears you are here to drain resources and attack people.
Please stop. Sincerly,
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
This is very interesting
Since this is a text based medium your determination of why or motive is very interesting.
My first post was very general in nature - I made it specific to drupal for clarification.
I asked one question -
What is the problem with detailed instructions?
There is nothing in this question about banner placement. I have never asked for help on banner placement. Several other people asked for help on banner placement and I noticed that the same thing that plagues other open source communities.
The only person who actually answered my question was Borris Mann and his response was.
The reason there are not detailed instructions is because people don't take time to write them.
Thanks Borris for actually taking the time to hear what I am/was trying to say, answering my question, and your encouragement.
This was a very simple specific question.
Thanks for the links but I DID NOT ASK ANYTHING ABOUT USING THE BANNER MODULE.
Thanks Mr. Dondley for your question asking advice and link except it wasn't in any way related to the question I asked.
I did not ask Steve for tips on dealing with this community or his thoughts on how I should solve my own personal problems with drupal.
I didn't ask killes for tips on research before you ask a question. Nor did I ask him/her for an analysis of my ability to understand the instructions given.
I didn't ask webchick for her opinion on my approach.
I didn't ask binford for what they deem to be success.
I didn't even say the drupal community was full of elitist.
What I did say is that there is a problem with efficiency not effectiveness but efficiency.
Effectiveness is doing the right thing.
Efficiency is doing the right thing right.
Now on the other side of the fence.
Ramdak, Dallyboy, Hellata, Gonzcoder, Laura S, Styro, Borris, Heine and Sprite.
All knew what I was talking about and not only did they agree they went on to relate in some why how they could identify exactly with what I was saying.
And from that - There where many postive suggestions and the door was even opened for me to join the documentation team.
To call that counter productive is uncanny. To say that the only purpose is to drain from the community is just either willful blindness or down right dishonesty.
There were more people who agreed/identified with me than those who tried to justify their actions or attitudes.
The one you need to ask to stop is not the one who is brave enough to point out a hole in your amour. The one you need to ask to stop is the one who tries to cover it up and act like it doesn't exists.
But such is life. If the very people who should have understood why Jesus did what he did didn't have a clue to what his purpose was. Misunderstood everything he said and did and tried to paint everything he did in the worst light. And if that wasn't enough became the very ones to seek and accomplish His death.
What more can I expect.
P.S.
Before you waste the time in comparing me to Jesus or even commenting in that nature - Let me give you a word of advice.
I was only commenting about the misunderstanding part
It is better to keep silent and let people think you are a fool - than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
My determination was based
My determination was based off of your repsonses and some the phrasing of your intial post. Your immediate name calling some of the lead developers and support people who have contributed code, documentation, themes and countless support hours, names is offensive and purposely inflamitory. As this is a text based medium your resorting to name calling and demands immediatly is a sure sign of trolling.
http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
You used words like Disease, you called people you don't know elitest and then you brought religion into a technical discussion. You have now kept 'score' of things. These are well known tactics of people who troll. People who create choas and dissension for fun. People have provided links to how to ask questions of a community, please go read them.
Steven's first answer to you was in no way offensive. It in no way implied you were anything. You asked a question about what you 'percieved' a disease and he responded with a thoughtful answer about Open Source workings and his opinion about those that take and take and do not contribute. You started calling names.
This is a technical forum. If you post, you get answers from many of those same volunteers who bring their perspective into their replies.
Drupal is a very technical product. It is created and maintained by volunteers primarily and some companies who pay for targetted development and contribute that code back to the community. It requires that a person understand or be willing to learn about webservers, databases, standards compliance, php coding, user accessability, visual UI design.
Any documentation is provided by volunteers. Nothing is wrong with detailed instructions IF someone provides them. If they don't exist, then feel free to provide them. Frankly, then existing install.txt is exceptionaly detailed. If you don't understand it, perhaps you need to do some additional research. Does this mean improvements arn't welcome? No.
Improvements are welcome. Many people come by and DEMAND this from people they don't know. The do not realize the work involved nor do they respoect the work that has already been done. Free, voluntary support/documentation/code is from people who contribute their unpaid assistence to other stranagers for personal reasons to benefit the community. Demands do NOT build community. Demands do NOT contribute to community. DEMANDS drain resources and DISTRACT from community. Distract from support. Discourage and distract from imporvements.
Your claim that you asked just one question is disingenous as your prefaced it with an attack.
I have written and edited a substantial portion of the existing documentation. I have had many promise documentation but few actually ever produce. Steven is one of the core devopers of this project and without his and others work, there would be no project for you to benefit from.
Your approach and replies have been divisive and not condusive to building towards community.
For the record, anyone who contributes is welcome to join the documentation team. I will note that I am the current document team coordinator.
Oh please. Just stop now. People have recovered from introductory mis-steps before. Your underlying assumptions that improvements to the existing documention would not have garnered attention if you had been less inflamitory are wrong and your current approach is not condusive to community. Let's see if you are truly interested in community.
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
Your determination was based on assumptions
I never called anyone an elitist.
My exact statement was
"Unless this is an elitist club."
Dallyboy then pointed how elitist Steven's response was.
Ramdak went on to say He couldn't understand Steven's response in light of all the work he has done.
Killes has - Proud to be and elitist in his/her signature.
They called themselves an elitist.
As as far as the word disease.
My exact statement was
'IMHO - it seems there is a disease that plagues the Open Source Community."
IMHO means In My Humble Opinion
It seems- is statement of observation.
These are not absolutes - these are generalities.
These are not attacks - these statements of observation.
Then I said - "No offense but"
Then I said - Maybe its just me.
If Steven's response was in NOW WAY OFFENSIVE
Why did Styro re-read it and make this statement.
"After reading Stevens post again in a different context you’re probably right."
Right about what?
"...that there was simply no excuse for the kind of statements that Steven made. I hate to say it but Steven's post comes across exactly as elitist almost arrogant.
I didn't say that - RAMDAK said that.
Not only was it offensive - it was offensive to people who it was not even directed at -
You can call it trolling or what ever you need to JUSITFY your feelings and your determinations.
But I did not come in demanding anything. I didn't have a need to place banners anywhere so I didn't have a need to read the install.txt. -
I have said this several times in several different ways.
THAT I USED BANNERS PLACEMENT AS AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT I SAW AS A PROBLEM.
You inability to realize that makes me wonder about your commitment to community.
You right about one thing though. Although I did not come to this forum to troll or for fun. I have things that I need to do and I have decided to use drupal to do it.
But I would not be interested in a community that is so lopsided -
Because that is not a community. That is an elitist club.
I am interested in the project and even wiling to contribute to documentation but people like you who gloss over obvious issues and misconstrue motive based on assumptions to cover up problems instead of dealing with them shows a serious imbalance in objective judgment.
To say that Steven's response was well thought out is just willful blindness. Even if I was trying to be devise (which I was not) It would still be just as well thought out to do so. I would have to study something to see what was wrong with it when everyone else perceives that there isn't a problem. Which takes thought.
As far as keeping score - I just pointed out some facts that you also seemed to purposely miss.
Any attitude that existed was here before I came in the room. I was just the one who pointed it out. And I can accept the title of being the "bad guy" for doing that.
BUT THAT DOESN'T CHANGE THAT FACT THAT THERE IS A PROBLEM.
It is not trolling that drains resources and time.
IT IS JUSTIFICATION in an attempt to DEFEND and gloss over hidden attitudes that wastes time.
This would make people like you the one who acting like a troll.
If I was SO WRONG then you and everyone else who feels the way you do should have just ignored me as a troll. But you didn't do that. You couldn't do that.
To be honest you have wasted more time trying to justify and defend wrong actions.
You could have said - Thanks for the tip - You have pointed out a problem that we are already working on- I am the documentation coordintatior - Would you like to help us?
THE REAL TEST WILL NOT FALL ON ME BECAUSE I WILL CONTRIBUTE TO DOCUMENTATION MY THOUGHTS AND SUGGESTIONS.
As matter of fact I have already started. My first suggestion was/is
1. That there needs to be more detailed instructions.
The real test will be on you as document coordinator to be able to accept them and work with someone
We will see if YOU are truly interested in community.
Clarification
Yep, I've been trolled back into replying (last time I promise)...
After rereading it, I did think it was a little harsh. But I still agreed 100% with what he said - now after reading more of your drivel I don't have a problem with how he said it either.
As I mentioned later - Steven has probably answered more of these trolls than anyone lately. Patience wears thin.
--
Anton
So now that you agree?
So YOU agreeing with him is suppose to make him or his response right?
Considering your reasoning of "thinking" you understand my drive....
It only shows how fickle people can be sometimes.
Come See Come Saw.
Literallly.
Stamina
When I need your's or Steven's help we will really see who is a troll and who is concerned about community.
I am awaiting your first
I look forward to following your tracker of helpful answers and detailed instructions to others.
I am awaiting your first contribution of detailed documentation instructions with anticipation.
I will leave you with your own non confrontational words of wisdom to the community.
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
Efficiency is to allocate
Efficiency is to allocate your energy where it counts more.
Please read the link in my signature
It's the absolutely best advice I can give you.
--
Get better help from Drupal's forums and read this.
This text is right on the
This text is right on the money. The irony is that it will be read only by people who already understand it, more or less.