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By drupalina on
Hi,
I need a little advice from you all:
I've been building websites for various clients, but now I want to know how much (per hour) is my work and skills are actually worth?
A bit about myself:
I have 3 years of Drupal experience. When I started out I could just install modules and maybe try a few things with CSS.
Now I have a 3 year Drupal experience and in this time I have built about 10 very diverse Drupal websites (ranging from relatively simple personal websites, to large daily newspaper, to a campaign website, and to multilingual social networks).
My Skills:
Having been with Drupal for 3 years I have tried and tested definitely over 1000 modules. So I know Drupal modules pretty well, so I can find solutions pretty quickly. I'm definitely good with Views, CCK and all the must-have modules.
I'm very good with CSS.
I know how to operate PhpMyAdmin
I'm pretty confident with theme-level PHP coding
I may do a little hack within modules every now and then, but I'm not as good as building modules myself or doing elaborate forks. I'm only entering that level in the last few months.
My websites are usually very fast (because I'm obsessed about Speed) and pleasure to surf around.
I'm based in the UK. So far I've been building websites either for fun or for customers who would tell me how much they can afford. But now that the word has spread and more people see my websites they all want my services and I'm not quite sure how much I should charge them for my services?
So I'm turning to Drupal community for advice: How much per hour should I charge?
Even if you give me rough estimates, I'd greatly appreciate that!
Comments
Depending on your
Depending on your jurisdiction, discussing this question might be considered illegal price fixing.
Wow - that was a bit
Wow - that was a bit unexpected given that all sorts of price-tags are being mentioned in this forum. I'm based in the UK. Like I said I want to have a rough clue, even if it's a widely ranging one, so that there is no issue of price-fixing. Over the years I've stumbled across some wild figures in this forum ($60-$150/hour for 3+years Drupal experience, including experience in module development, which I don't have, though have all other skils).
The reason why I'm asking is because, like many "geeks", I'm actually pretty shy when it comes to stating an hourly price. That's why I asked what is a reasonable and rough figure for someone with my set of skills?
.
Those aren't "wild figures". That's a pretty good range, actually. Not being able to make custom modules may affect that somewhat but you should be able to get in that range given all your other experience.
Michelle
Thanks for boosting my
Thanks for boosting my confidence once again Michelle :) -- I was actually hoping for something around the £15-£20 ($20-$30)/hour range, but now it seems that I should confidently ask for more without blushing.
(oh well, I've been addicted to drupal for the last 3 years with many all-nighters, so I guess it all should make-up for something)
Definitely
I started out way too low and kept increasing my rates until the offers slowed down. Since I'm in the US which has those annoying price fixing laws, I don't want to say what my rate is, but it's in that range. :) I rarely freelance anymore but still get offers despite the note on my contact form that I'm not freelancing. There's a definite market there, that's for sure.
Michelle
It may be different in the
It may be different in the UK. In the US, it's like this. Or at least it was; things may have changed since that FAQ was written.
USA: the land of the "free".
USA: the land of the "free". Unbelievable. Freelancers should be able to discuss their prices with colleagues. I'm very lucky to live in "socialist" Europe! ;-)
I know in Germany/Benelux area the average hourly rate for self-employeds without personel is only about 60 EUR/hr (excl. VAT). About 80$. My rate is now 75 EUR, or about 100$/Hr. This is above average around here.
But I remember a day when I started with 17,50 EUR (24$) / hr. Haha, very glad those days are way in the past. I took a while, but investing time in my skills really paid off in the long run.
The principles of pricing
The HWG does not want to discuss pricing in their guild forums because as an organization it puts them at risk by seeming to endorse certain prices. As a Licensed Real Estate Agent, I'm quite aware of the price fixing laws. But this is an informal forum and no one's going to come in here and prosecute. It's like saying two partners trying to price a job they're going to do can't sit around and talk about the price. Or that there isn't some way to discuss the principles of pricing without "fixing" the price. Every real estate class and seminar we discussed the principles of commission as well as the rates in a way that did not "fix" them. I can understand real estate agents, lawyers, and the like, or organizations like HWG, or Ronald McDonald and The Burger King having plain clothes secret meetings to discuss the price of a burger, but lord oh lord I don't see this as being the place to be so rigid. Let the forum moderators decide rather than being a naysaying rule book reading hall monitor. This is the place to act like a human being, not a robot geek.
Wait. Sheldon? Is that you?
TO answer the question, $25 to $30 an hour in this kind of filed is a darn good price considering your skill level. Pricing varies based on so many things in any field, but especially in this work. We all know the range is from there (or in some situations lower) up to $150 or even more, and depends on many factors, including your local area, whether you're working for an employer or freelance, the type of work being done, and yes, the value of the client and the site itself. You can't get the same price for a small business as you can a larger one or a major corporation. That is simply the rule of the market, nothing unseemly of dishonest. The value of anything is simply what someone will pay for it. There is no such thing as intrinsic value. Like beauty, it's in the eye of the beholder. Van Gogh's paintings cost maybe a couple hundred dollars in materials by today's prices, but people will pay millions for them. It used to be said that the human body was worth 99 cents in the value of its minerals.
The point is, don't under price yourself, and don't be afraid to ask for more if you think they have it. I used to have the same problem and often still do, so I understand.
The issue I have in this business is not what to charge per hour (when you're on an hourly), but what hours to charge for. This work requires constant studying and research. It can take hours to find a solution that's a five minute fix. You have to never stop reading (books cost money) and experimenting and investing in equipment and software and reformatting your hard drive and setting up hosting accounts and development environments and so on. All that work is added to what goes on behind the scenes so you have the skills and knowledge to do the job. I say I charge $25 and hour to a client--- ha!-- mif I add in all the background time I'd be looking at a lot less.
This is why many high-tech fields can charge $100 or more. It's why a lawyer costs $150/hr or more. Or a Doctor. And so on. Plumbers make 2 to 3 times your $25 / hr. that you're afraid to ask for.
I have discussed this on other forums with some very high-priced developers (and we're all still free to walk the streets). The nearly unanimous answer among the most successful is get to the point where you don't charge by the hour, but charge by the job. Get out of the hourly trap, because that limits you to as set rate in which there's no growth, and the fact is or all the reaons I've stated, your never really make that much. I'm talking about people who won't take a job under 10K and are usually in the 20K+ range. Before Drupal and Joomla et al came along, a database driven web site was easily in the tens of thousands. Tens of tens even.
Reading Robert's post below he makes some very good points about what one can classify overall as professionalism and service. And about being realistic about what your abilities are and in overall delivery of a product and management of the project. Some might take what I've said as saying take what you can get and run because no one understands what you do and you can jargon them to death long enough to get a string of paychecks. Nothing could be further from the truth. I believe wholeheartedly in honesty and hard work and delivering quality, and obviously you do too. Building your skills and reputation and a long-term business is the goal, not just simply getting paid. However you don't have to have all this skills or be an elite programmer to deserve good money. I know of developers who are more GC's than top-notch programmers or designers. They have some staff, and they outsource a bit, and their main skills are in conceptualization, organization, and management of the project.
Know what you're worth. Know that not anyone could do what we do--in fact few people could handle it. You have special knowledge, which to most people is extremely esoteric and mysterious. Ok, so we're not elite programmers here (most of us anyway--not counting you Drupal devs, and Robert), but we still deserve some respect, which starts with self-respect. Get paid back for all those all-nighters.
Good night.
:)
I wasn't aware that this
I wasn't aware that this forum actually had moderators; if so, the touch of their invisible guiding hand has been extremely light and subtle.
Moderators
There's about 100 of us with the access but only a handful actually read the forums. This site needs very little moderation. For the most part, members police themselves and we do fine.
The subject of price fixing is a tricky one. The most adamant anti price discussion person I know is also one of the admins and he would likely frown on this conversation but he rarely looks at the forums. I don't think this thread is a problem but people who are in the US, where the law seems to be the strictest, should at least be aware of the possibility so thanks for bringing it up.
Michelle
Back fence
I would assume that Drupal has people moderating these forums and what goes on on this site in some capacity, so thanks for showing up Michelle.
I just don't think that anything anyone is saying here could be construed as price fixing, nor would the circumstances under which it is being said. No, I have not read to the letter of the law lately. But I've been in such discussions on other major popular forums, sites with a bigger brand than Drupal with lot of money to lose and reputation to protect, and not only did it not come up from the moderators, not one individual felt the need to mention it. Personally I don't understand the concern over price fixing the be a person's first reaction, as if they've encountered offensive profanity or abuse.
I'd like to think this is s friendly community where people help each other out rather than slap each other's wrists over such minor concerns that exist in such a gray area (I am a bit new here). Actually, I'm glad to see it is, and all the good comments and conversation that I and others have found helpful and stimulating. That's what this is about here, or so I thought. It's neighbors talking casually over the back fence, not the board members of health insurance companies colluding on how to best rip off the public. And we all know that doesn't happen because they don't want to go to jail.
Anyways, good thread.
:-)
Ultimately your rate per hour
Ultimately your rate per hour is determined by what the market is willing to pay.
Charge too little, you get abused and won't make a profit. Charge too much and you have no work, no income...
If this is you main source of income then you need to account for all your costs, taxes etc that you incur in a year, what profit level you are looking for and divide the total by the number of hours you work in a year. That gives you your hourly rate. Then work out how many hours it will take you to complete a website, multiply by hourly rate and there you have your quote.
Quote higher than your needed rate and negotiate your eventual charge noting what you need to need to survive as a business.
There are "calculators" out on the interweb that would assist with this like http://freelanceswitch.com/rates/
On the other if this is a hobby and you don't depend on the income to feed/clothe yourself / family, then the above still applies but with more flexibility or if the website is particularly interesting then pick a number!
Oh and don't forget it is o.k. to say No! Some clients are just not worth the hassle no matter how much they pay...
Paris rates
Hi, I'm a young French Drupal developer (25) with one year of experience in Drupal. I can do nearly the same, and maybe less when it comes to know 1000 modules and PHP coding at theme level. Still, I built like 10 small websites in the past 12 months. I'm gonna tell you how I charge now in Paris : my daily rate is minimum 150€/day. Which is more than 15€/hour. So 15£ is a minimum, and 20£ is realistic to me.
Price Fixing? or open discussion
I am not a lawyer or anything like that (just common sense and common knowledge of the law as I understand it), but it is not price fixing if it is discussed out in the open. In any case, if we were seated in a coffee shop, Drupalcon, my livingroom, during a job interview, or project scoping session, would we go to jail to asking "so how much should we charge for this project"?
Here are related discussions on Drupal.org and Blueflavor blogs
http://drupal.org/node/279337
http://www.blueflavor.com/blog/2006/apr/25/pricing-project/
Don't try to low-ball just to get projects, morale and quality will suffer as a result
Depends on where project is executed, length, and expertise.
It depends on project complexity,duration and also where it is executed and team's expertise.
Indian companies charge upward of $15/hr(new entrants) all the way to $65/hr(experts)
For US/Canadian firms - your range of $60/hr to $150/hr looks ok.
For on-site training of few days, you can be looking at $300/hr or something.
Roshan
Wow! Thanks for this
Wow! Thanks for this thread!
I worked over than 7 years as PHP / Mysql developer, and last 3 years i`m creating custom modules for Drupal.
Also I`m using linux/ssh 4 years, have experience in appache/php config, LAMP administration and performance improvement.
Here, in Russia/Ukraine, i didn`t saw any rates more than 30-50$. So if you`re living in Europe - you are lucky!
Anyway, now i see that my rate (20$/hr) is too small for my experience and i`ll search for better opportunity.
Exchange rates
You have to be careful about comparing rates from outside UK to any other jurisdiction, especially at the moment at UK exchange rate is pretty dire compared to anywhere else.
However as has been noted elsewhere, it's down to you really. You do this as a hobby so what do YOU think your time is worth and what would you be happy with? Would you be happy with £20/hour, or would you want more and simply you come to your decision and then pitch at that. If you find people shaking your hand off then you increase it.
I hate hourly rates personally. I always think the best way for things like this is a fixed rate and get all the information upfront.
i.e. a person comes to you and says. I want a website, with domain name, and 5 email accounts and I want to website to basically look like this (mock up in Photoshop), and be able to post blogs and nothing more.
Now you know roughly how long you should spend doing that website and what disbursements you'll need to make (hosting etc...). BUT if you're skilful you'll go back to the client with an RFI and ask further questions such as: how is the website going to grow in the next 3 years, do you want people to comment on posts, do you want user accounts, do you want the system to be able to produce mailing list, have you thought about SEO, have you thought about databases, have you thought about this etc... And together you spend maybe 2 hours building the specification, which will benefit as the client may not know of some of the extra functional things Drupal can do and what started out as a pretty basic website could have mutated into a fully interactive global behemoth!
You then revaluate your initial thought and think 'well now with all this info it'll actually take me 2 times more hours to build' and you go back to the client and say. Okay, I am going to built a website for you that does all these things. It'll cost £xxx and take 4 weeks.
If after those 4 weeks, you are still going as there are things that are added complications that YOU didn't consider then you have to bear those problems and get it sorted for the same fee. However if three weeks has passed and you've finished the website then you deliver to the client ahead of schedule for the same fee and you have 1 weeks opportunity cost to benefit from and one happy client who will provide a glowing reference! If the client turns around 2 weeks in and says actually I now realise I need Google maps (or something) you turn around and say okay, it'll be an extra £xxx to get that implemented and will take an extra 1 week, are you happy for me to do this or do you just want me to deliver the original agreement.
You will slowly start to learn roughly what fixed fees you should be charging and what time scales should be taken. You will also slowly build your RFI documentation and be able to produce detailed specifications so as to stop problems occurring during the development stage.
I've digressed somewhat, but in summary, do projects as fixed fees but spend a lot of time understanding the clients needs and building an agreed specification, then simply get an idea of a figure for that project and pitch to the client (remember if you pitch an inflated price you can always re pitch at a lower rate where both parties are happy).
Welcome to the world of capital markets ;)
Project fees & scope of work
Wibbsy: You touch on exactly what I was starting to get at earlier: pricing by the job, not the hour.\
In most cases, a client is going to ask: how much is this going to cost? So you go ahead and give an estimate based on how long you think it will take multiplied by your desired hourly rate. And how many times have you eaten some hours because it took longer?
The problem is defining a detailed scope of work so that everyone knows what they are getting (or in your case, doing) for the price. It's very easy in this field for things to change and grow or to encounter bugs and other problems. You have to cover yourself for all that. How do you line item for a client the kinds of xtra work I mentioned earlier, or time spent chasing error messages? "2 hours researching forum posts and chatting on IRC for a solution to an error message. 2 hours looking for a module that will do xxx to met your request - and 2 more hours testing and then uninstalling that module cause it didn't work"? That doesn't always look good, or professional, and most people's eyes glaze over when you start with the jargon and technical stuff. They want the big picture, and what is that going to cost them?
You have to break the job down and anticipate what it really involved and what exactly you are going to deliver the client. The more you spell out the entire job, specify the components and modules you're going to use, the functionality to be delivered, how much custom graphics, the menu and page structure, content creation and writing, etc., the more professional your presentation, and the more you can get for the job. Why? Because you're delivering an intangible value-added thing called service, and it shows that you know what you're doing. It puts yours and the client's mind at ease.
This covers both parties, but especially covers you, because now you can define when something is an extra. If you approach the job with a general and vague scope of work, what happens when the client says "hey, I assumed this or that was included? I'd think that would be standard." I have seen this happen with others, and I've seen lawyers get involved.
There are many different kinds of work involved. Some aren't as easily anticipated to be charged for by the job, but may be better done as T & M, like the ongoing work of upgrades and maintenance. At the beginning of the job especially, many of thee things are unknown quantities. I think it's best to define the creation of the site itself separate from that work, and the scope of work can clearly say these things are not included. Then there is training time, and who is going to maintain the site? And What about keyword analysis and SEO, search engine submission, analytics, marketing, and the host of web master duties? Who is going to maintain the site? I say separate all this out and define them as separate agreements for hosting, maintenance, training, SEO, and marketing packages. Some of these might be done on an hourly basis. You can pre-charge people for blocks of hours, then keep a log of everything you do and every customer request.
The client will thank you and you will thank yourself, and you will make a better living with more $$ and less stress.
:)
If you are working for U.S.
If you are working for U.S. companies (at least), that rate is way too low for your level of experience. If that is what the Russia/Ukraine going rate is fine. But, if you then do work for US company, you should increase your rate to be more in line with American developers.
http://ItsAboutTyme.com
Pro vs Hobbyist...wrong
I strongly disagree with those who say your rate should depend on whether you do the work professionally or as a hobby. Your rate should depend on your skill level and rate similar to others at that level, and take geography (market rate) into consideration.
Furthermore, I strongly disagree with grossly undercutting other developers -- even from one country to the next. I've been a web developer for 10+ years (Drupal focus in last few years). I always tried to keep my rate in line with others at my level, no matter how badly I might have needed the work, at that time.
So, I think that the poster's question is a responsible one.
While I do not slash my hourly rate (so as not to throw off the 'market value' of the work), I might throw in a little non-billed work for a client, or offer my expertise in other areas (e.g., video producing/editing, writing/editing). Or, in some circumstances, offer the client a discount for large volume work -- something that resembles a part-time or full-time job, so that your fees are a bit more in line with what they would pay a staff person. Of course, as a freelancer you are not getting "fringe" (health insurance, paid vacation, sick days, etc.) from your clients, so your rate would reasonably be more per hour that a staff person with fringe and more of a commitment from the employer.
http://ItsAboutTyme.com
Total Experience, Work History, and Education
I have read many of the posts from my fellow colleagues and may have very good points when it comes to rates.
I have found there are two strategies one could use:
A) The (short-term) fishing strategy
The fishing strategy is to just push your rates as high as possible for the maximum amount of clients are you can possibly burn through. The goal is to get people to pay you money in the current "hot thing" for a much as you can possibly charge for as long as you can. This strategy is of course tempered by how skilled you are and if not skilled how long you can gather a client base in a geographical location before your reputation precludes you from getting any more work (aka you have generated a bad rep for charging high and not delivering 1) on time 2) on budget 3) the features requested or 4) all three.
B) The (long-term) Career Strategy
However I would error on the side of humility and identify what you don't know in addition to what you do. In my 17+ years as a software and business analyst I have found that the hourly rate is not only based on the task at hand but also based on:
1) Reputation and Referrals
When you take on a project how close do you come to the budget and delivery date?
How do you get your projects? Is it through "cold" calls or through referrals from past clients?
Are clients calling you instead of you hunting them down.
When you finish a project do you have followup work with the client or do you burn your bridges and move on the next "mark"?
Demand generates perceived worth to prospective clients and a healthy resume or portfolio of successful projects increases the client will accept and you will justify demanding high rates. Just because you have "spent time using" Drupal doesn't mean you can easily solve business tasks using Drupal as the platform.
2) Work Experience and Education
Hold long have you been in the software industry?
(And for that matter, do you even recognize that you are working in the software industry?)
How many development platforms have you used?
(Microsoft .net, Sun Java, Adobe Air or Flash platform, LAMP)
How many programming and scripting languages do you know?
(I know too many to list here but the more experience in different languages you have the better chance you are going to solve the client's business problems.)
What education do you have?
(self taught, certifications, formal degrees)
Your rate should reflect your level of education and experience as this is also a justification for said rate.
Recently my company has been picking up a lot of projects where Drupal consultants have taking on more then they are technically capable to accomplish. Either they lack the experience or programming knowledge or they were attempting to fish their way through. Some clients we now have had this experience where the Drupal representative didn't really know how to do anything and milked the client for six+ months at high rates delivering nothing. On most of the projects with this scenario we accomplished the basic functionality the client needed in about 6 to 24 hours. In other cases we had to inform the client that the features they were asking for were more complex the what was told to them by the previous consultant. Many focused around e-commerce and business systems integration or integration with 3rd party SAAS systems.
Such practices don't only harm clients (who are the reason we get work) it also tarnishes the reputation of the Drupal community, reduces business interest in using Drupal within their businesses and enterprises, and ultimately inferred that your or I are as un-reputable as the Drupal "fishers" clients have had to deal with.
I will admit this experience isn't new I have had to deal with tarnished client resentment throughout my career on multiple development platforms, languages, and environments. My recommendation is to justify your rate by your reputation, experience, and track record for being successful and always be professional.
3) Know your client find "good" clients
Your rates not only define your worth they also help you weed out bad clients too. If you are too cheap you will have a hard time identify the client who is a good client that listens to your suggestions and works with you to meet their business need. It is important to recognize that good clients are made by building a professional relationship and guiding clients down a path that meets their business goals while also making the project profitable.
The bad client is a client who constantly tries to get more free work out of you and will continually have an adversarial attitude toward your work and the rates you provide. Such "angst" also means that the bad client may default on paying what is owed to you or even sue you without just cause. Bad clients feel like they are doing you a favor for giving you the job and even think that such a favor should also provide perks like free work or "pro-bono" work to "seal the deal". Trust me even if you are homeless, starving, and on your death bed, resist taking on clients like this because clients like this will cost you more money and siphon your soul and enthusiasm for developing in Drupal or any Language/Platform.
4) Overhead Costs
Factor in your monthly costs, business expenses, healthcare, ect and determine what the minimum rate should be based on the minimum hours you must work each week to cover your costs. If you rates are above your base costs then the remaining is all profit. This of course has to be tempered with making sure the hours you work are equal to the rate quoted. Fixed budgets can be a dual edged sword, where in one side you could make considerable profit because the estimated hours could be greater than the actual hours (this rarely happens). The other side of the sword is the fixed budget (as 40 hours) ends up dating 60 to 80 hours. For every hour you work over the budget your rate decreases once you reach the point where the number of hours spend reduces the rate below your base costs you are basically paying the client to do work for them.
Robert Foley Jr
Application Architect / Business Analyst / Information Designer
http://www.robertfoleyjr.com
Great and thoughtful post,
Great and thoughtful post, Robert.
I would add as a value asset, Client Relations.
I have had several clients who were victim to the "big build syndrome". Developers, especially design firms, who only want the big build but then have no interest in supporting the client's ongoing needs. Many clients, particularly small ones, need some hand holding. Yep, these a la carte arrangements aren't profitable, but I believe that the site developer has a responsibility to support the client or find someone who will, before the developer departs.
And even Team Spirit - a genuine interest in the success of the client's project.
Just this week, I was working with 2 clients with site emergencies, whose site developer just left in the middle of a project at a critical point. One ditched the client 2 days before a strict launch date. The other dropped her client while in the middle of a D5-->D6 upgrade on a live site (with no backups)! Left the site in a crippled hybrid state.
http://ItsAboutTyme.com
+1
Robert,
That's a great post on working in web development in general, not just Drupal.
Thanks for taking the time to write it all down!
Regards,
Pete
London Rates
Have seen temp work for £375.00/Day in London,
Stephen :)
learn to write modules
you should def learn how to write modules.
start with form api and then try some hooks.
you will be surprised how easy it is in drupal.
as little as ten lines of code can be a working module.
getting off topic now...
valuating yourself is a hard task. ppl tend to under valuate themselves, so aim a bit higher than you think. don't forget there is also a significant effect that ppl tend to think high priced services have a higher quality. making yourself more expensive will make the client think you are more qualified, of course you should be able to get the task done.
Must say, this is one of the
Must say, this is one of the most productive threads I've ever read in the forums. Of course, usually we're helping each other solve a technical problem, but, I am so glad to see some discussion on the topic of our industry and helping one another understand an area that alludes so many that are starting out or needing to re-evaluate how they are running their business.
Great discussion and I have learned a bunch just reading through. Thanks.
Dan Serrato
A useful thread for
A useful thread for freelancers!!
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aac