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By ladycentaur on
/rant on
I'm really angry right now. I was on the original mailing list way before "Dean Space" and I distinctly remember what the original vision was for the project that became CivicSpace. It was supposed to be FREE, not Commercial. What the heck is going on? I think it's great that they are offering a hosted solution for people who can afford to pay, but am thoroughly DISGUSTED that they are no longer offering the free download for people who either can't or don't want to pay for the hosted service. Am I the only one who believes it is so inherently WRONG to charge for code that was built off the source code of Drupal...which is FREE? I mean, sure, charge for the hosted service, but do NOT remove the download. The CivicSpace site claims the software is Open Source and Free yet it has removed ALL downloads and I've been searching for almost a week for a download and every single link leads to CivicSpace's error page that says the download is gone.
Apparently CivicSpace can only be bought now. I guess poor people can't use it anymore...how very "Democratic". My old Governor, Howard Dean would be DISGUSTED by this...as it was NOT his vision to see people charged to organize and get involved in positive ways. CivicSpace needs to make the downloadable code available NOW.
/rant off
[Edit -sepeck: THIS THREAD IS LOCKED. DRUPAL.ORG forums are not for rants or threats.]
[http://drupal.org/node/93745#comment-170408]
[the original poster has been notified via email and provided an update on a new thread (http://drupal.org/node/93774)]
Comments
I believe its been in closed
I believe its been in closed beta since september along with the site rebuild. Until a statement is made by them indicating that they have gone in the direction you speak of, I don't believe they can be accused of anything in your rant. I hope you havent screwed the pooch in haste.
deferred to Drupal 5.0
"With the release of Drupal 5.0, all the functionality of CivicSpace can be accessed via the Drupal 5.0 download and contributed modules." - http://civicspacelabs.org/download
check this link out
http://civicspacelabs.org/developers/download
..
Note that while those provide a decent base on which to build your site they include security vulnerabilities. If you download those files you should update them with the appropriate patches prior to installing them.
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Knaddison Family | mmm Beta Burritos
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Morris Animal Foundation
those downloads do NOT
those downloads do NOT work...they lead to a 404 page
Click on any of the
Click on any of the downloads...you get a 404 message.
WOAH! Please stop now
Step back and take a breath.
Have you contacted the folks at CivicSpace and asked them? They are a company.
They have a distribution that will still be freely downloadable but are having some hosting issue's while transitioning to new servers. They are changing their business model to provide hosted services for those interested HOWEVER their software distribution will (I believe) still be available for download. In any case, their distribution is based on Drupal. Drupal is still free.
The CivicSpace folks still contribute a lot to Drupal in terms of support, code, documentation. They do need to eat though. So please contact them and clear things up. They really do not deserve to be castigated for trying to eat. It's a really small company.
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
CivicSpace evolved from a
CivicSpace evolved from a small email list called "Hackers For Dean". At the time I was volunteering for Howard Dean's campaign and building a web site for one of the NH campaign offices. The office wanted me to use Drupal as a CMS because of the just then created "hackers" group who were at that point just making plans on what they were going to do. I joined the mailing list basically as a "tester" and to report user friendliness, problems with modules and what not. I was there before DeanSpace. In fact, I was there within the first two weeks that the group started. I'm sure that's part of why I am so upset.
Yes, the developers have to eat...and I'm not complaining about them offering the hosted solution...I'm all for that. My complaint is with the fact that the downloads of ALL CivicSpace releases have been removed from the site. There are links on the site for two different downloads and the files have been removed. That tells me that they WERE there at one point...and yes, that's on the same site as the hosted solution, which I believe is the new site. When you try to download CivicSpace you get a message that all CivicSpace downloads have been removed and are told to sign up for the hosted option which either has a monthly charge now or will have after a trial/test period. (didn't sign up so I don't know when the charges start)
The original concept of Hackers For Dean/DeanSpace/CivicSpace was not to profit from their work...they were volunteers. They had regular jobs and worked on code in their spare time. Again...I don't have a problem with the hosted solution costing money. I have an issue with the downloads being removed because that goes against the entire premise that the project was born upon. I know that it goes against it because I was THERE when it began.
CivicSpace is licensed under GPL and will always be free
Thanks for your interest in the CivicSpace software. The software is licensed under GPL and will remain free. A couple weeks ago we had a server crash and it took longer than expected to recover all the files and get the infrastructure in place to manage releases.
If you want to create a new site then I suggest you download Drupal 4.7 and CiviCRM 1.5. CivicSpace software is made by integrating software from Drupal core, contributed module, and CiviCRM.
After running the CivicSpace software project for 2 years we determined that integrating a website, CRM, mailing lists, SSL, e-commerce, and newsletters was a lot to ask from even from early adopters. We are focused on producing a solution that can be up and running in seconds. Unfortunately, this is very resource intensive and so we are focused on getting the turnkey delivery of this free and open source software to you.
Sincerely,
The CivicSpace team
Kieran Lal
Just to clarify
"The software is licensed under GPL and will remain free." these are two different things and there is no causality. GPL means that the software distribution has special freedoms (as in free speech) and it's CivicSpace nicety to give it to you for free (as in beer).
--
The news is Now Public | Drupal development: making the world better, one patch at a time. | A teddy bear is a cuddle with four paws on the end.
--
Drupal development: making the world better, one patch at a time. | A bedroom without a teddy is like a face without a smile.
I have several years of
I have several years of experience installing php software into mysql databases and usually have no problem installing CMS systems and configuring them properly. I spent 3 days trying to get Drupal and CiviCRM to work together to no avail. The instructions are all jumbled up and impossible to understand by anyone who doesn't write their own code. That is why I wanted to download CivicSpace because I keep reading that it is far easier to work with. I'm frustrated because all those download links lead to error pages that say the downloads have all been removed and to sign up for the hosted solution. The non profit I am doing this for already bought a domain name and are paying for hosting for a site they can have control over. They are not going to pay to be hosted again on a different site. The download is not available anywhere. I decided to try to Joomla with CiviCRM option since Joomla has an automatic Component installer but now I can't get the CiviCRM configured for the front end. I have followed the instructions to the letter (as best you can with how terribly they are written for the average person)...and it still won't work. I'm frustrated as all out because I have never had this kind of problem with any script before. I just don't understand why there is NO download of even older stable versions of Civicspace available for download anywhere. THAT is what has my feathers ruffled...that and CiviCRM instructions being ridiculously confusing and anything but user friendly.
I've gone to CivicSpace EVERY day checking on download availability for about a week now. I just don't understand why the server is stable enough to offer the on demand hosting solution but not stable enough for a couple of zip files of the most recent stable release. I ranted because it's the squeaky wheel that gets the oil...and I need some oil (CivicSpace download) before I throw my computer out the window.
but...
why? Did you try and contact them through their contact form? I understand your frustration but to castigate them on a public forum because you are frustrated?
These folks are human beings. Just because you want something for free 'now' does not mean you should skip the basic courtesy you would grant your neighbor or other local volunteer whose work you benefit from. Pick up the phone, send an email, use a contact form.
If you are trying to install Drupal with additional add on's you also have the option of requesting help on the forums. Yes, it is a hit or miss propositions but that's the joy and pain of Open Source volunteer unpaid efforts. We all do our best. Taking a rant from someone is also part of it but it really really shouldn't be.
CivicCRM is a seperate project. I am not sure why their documentation is confusing but I have seen their helpful and courteous answers in many places in the forums from their folks. I understand that the CivicCRM 1.5 and Drupal 4.7 install is much easier then before.
Beating people up, tearing them down and using strong words like disgusting certainly wasn't part of the Dean Space movement I remember. Maybe we participated in different movements. Anger and frustration should not override basic courtesy.
Here are some other tips for posting to the forums: http://drupal.org/forum-posting
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
Well Steven, I spent 3 days
Well Steven, I spent 3 days trying to install CiviCRM on Drupal and over that time I utilized the search function on this site, read the instructions on CiviCRM and searched through the first 20 pages of links that Google provided when searching for help. It seems that more people have problems with the installation than know how to offer help with it. Again, that is why I really need to be able to download CivicSpace.
I am not beating anyone up or tearing anyone down. Yes, I could send an e-mail to the "catchall" CivicSpace email and get a polite and private response that most likely would not get the downloads put back up. I'm all about action. By posting my thoughts and feelings about the downloads not being available when they really should be it is much more likely to light a fire beneath the appropriate hind ends and cause the downloads to be put back up. Then I can come back here and post a nice big "Thank You...you guys did the right thing" and everyone will be happy...AND I'll get the web site up and working so the non-profit I'm doing this for can network and get the volunteers and donations that they need to continue to run their food pantry and help some families this Christmas with gifts for kids and holiday meal food packages. This is about helping poor people to me, so I'm gonna do what will get the quickest results...because they need to eat too and if the non profit I'm doing this for doesn't help them they might not get any help at all.
very well then
Your goals while laudable do not serve as a justification for flaming someone on the forums. Yes, you did in fact flame CivicSpace and all of it's people for very human fallibilities with your choice of words and your post.
While being 'all about action' I urge you to read the forum posting tips link I posted. Their thousands of hours of service and support to the community shows they have in fact already 'done the right thing'. And no, I do not work for them or get paid by them. I do not pay them either so we are both benefiting from their work aren't we? We really try and discourage flames in the Drupal.org forums. It does happen and we get pulled into the threads but we really do discourage it.
Your use of words serve as your introduction to the Drupal community. Welcome to the community. I wish you all the best in your site implementations and leave you with this quote from the forum posting tips link.
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
A little more courtesy from CivicSpace
While I agree that we need to observe courtesy in the forums, I do empathize with ladycentaur's frustrations regarding CivicSpace error pages and the CiviCRM/Drupal installation problems. CivicSpace could practice a bit of courtesy by posting a better explanation than a 404 error page which shows the ff:
Just imagine how a user feels coming from a well-written page on CivicSpace or CiviCRM from the Drupal handbooks only to come to an error page like this for a week and not getting any more helpful explanation why the expected downloads are not there. Perhaps someone can update the messages shown to the user and explain that the development team or company are having difficulties or are working on other solutions and then perhaps refer the user to alternatives. I think most open-source software users can understand this. Just don't create an expectation of a product or service and not care whether that is met or not just because it is free.
..
This is Drupal.org. Not CivicSpace. Amazon posted an explanation already. From memory they only have like 5-6 employees. I am not paying them. You are not paying them. She is not paying them. If none of us are paying them then the least we can do as civilized people is to act with courtesy.
I do understand how it feels. I also know how it feels to read rants on Drupal.org forums and respond with courtesy. They have a product and a service and business that is not drupal.org. As far as I know a working contact form on their site.
I am sure they are working very hard to correct all of this. It can't be fun to have a disaster happen when moving a complex infrastructure and have to rebuild it all. You have that choice then of restore as it was and lose all that time or maybe start work on implementing all the changes you wanted that will help you eat and pay rent. I can only say from Amazon's post they are working hard to fix all this.
She failed to grant them the basic courtesy of trying to use THEIR contact form to ask them this information and instead posted a rant on this site. A site hosted by unpaid volunteers who are trying to help people.
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
Exactly...the CivicSpace
Exactly...the CivicSpace site messages essentially have basically left me feeling like I'm being given the proverbial "brush off"...or "pay us or get lost". Yes, that infuriates me because I contributed to the development of this software by loyally downloading every single module, theme and code that was listed and testing it out on the site I was working on. Lots of times doing so cause hours of work for me to fix problems from conflicts and it was a right mess at times. And to find out now that I can't even download something I volunteered my time to help with ONLY because I was told it was always going to be free? Of course I'm mad...I think most people would be.
If they don't want to host the downloads on their site, fine...give them to THIS site and let them be offered here....but don't take them away, that is just inherently WRONG!
You need to go back and
You need to go back and re-read my original post. First you accused me of calling them "disgusting", which I did not do. I said that I am "disgusted". I did not attack or flame any individual person, nor did I attack them for wanting to make a profit on their work by offering a hosted solution. I don't have a problem with them no longer working on developing new free releases, either. What I DO have a problem with is taking away the previous release downloads that were developed for a cause that so many believed in and supported...that *I* believed in and supported...giving small groups the ability to network and further their causes through the internet...starting with Howard Dean's campaign.
If CivicSpace had a forum I would be posting all this there instead...but they don't have one. Since I did a ton of research on trying to install CiviCRM on Drupal I was aware that many of the CivicSpace team are members here, so I knew it would be seen by CivicSpace members if I posted it here.
Again...I do NOT have a problem with CivicSpace moving in a new direction or earning money for the work they have done. I don't have a problem with them no longer developing free releases of CivicSpace. What I DO take issue with is that they appear to be taking away what was already given over the last several years. The ONLY LOGICAL reason for doing that would appear to be to force people to have to pay for the new hosted solution instead of having the choice of using previous free versions. THAT is what I am disgusted about and I feel that way because it is in DIRECT conflict with the vision this all began from. To be perfectly honest with you, I NEVER would have spent hours on end testing modules and filling the site I was managing with bugs and problems I had to deal with while new features were being developed and made stable had I known that I wouldn't even be able to use the software when I needed it. Yes, I'm ticked off...and with good reason. Perhaps if you invested as much time as I did in trying to help the project you might be a bit ticked off too...
...
using strong words like.... It's a capitalized action word in your post. I didn't accuse you of calling them that. I said using strong words like didn't help. In any case, you are obviously still very upset.
In the mean time, did you have any specific Drupal support questions?
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
I said that *I* am
I said that *I* am disgusted, which was an appropriate word to describe how I feel about this. I will NOT apologize for my feelings, and you, sir, have no right to expect me to do so OR to expect me to apologize or feel guilty for how I feel, thank you very much.
Now, if I said "CivicSpace...you are "disgusting"', then yes, you would have just reason to read me the riot act. But you do NOT have a reason or just cause to read me the riot act for posting what I feel.
Now that we have established that...
I worked very hard to help this project for many months. I invested my time, energy and effort on a project I was led to believe was to remain freely available to all who wanted to use it at no cost...because it would better the world we live in. THAT is the issue here...I feel like I was mislead and I do NOT like it. Why you are so inclined to argue with me over how I feel is really beyond me. You won't get anywhere in doing so. You might manage to get me ticked off at you, too, but that's about it. So, unless you have a working link to a CivicSpace download, our conversation is quite through...
Actually, yes I do.
You are using Drupal.org forums to vent. That does make it Drupal project site maintainers concern.
That you have invested time and energy is something that has not in fact gone to waste. Those that continued to work on the project have taken the original fork that was DeanSpace and merged it back into stock Drupal. Your efforts have not in fact gone to waste. Neil Drumm, one of the key folks in DeanSpace, is in fact the Drupal 5.0 core maintainer for the next version of Drupal.
I am not inclined to argue about how you feel. I am inclined to ask you not vent in our forums and try and direct and encourage you to more effective means of expressing yourself on this site (not a CivicSpace or your own site). If you vent in our forums then you run across people who maintain and help on Drupal.org. We really do discourage venting here. We're also fairly persistent about it too.
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
Apparently you never learned
Apparently you never learned the lesson that it's a bad idea to argue with a woman when she's angry and frustrated.
Tip for future reference...
If a woman posts something when frustrated the WORST thing to do is chastize her because you will only aggravate the situation...as you have illustrated quite readily in this very thread.
I am actually even MORE bothered by the downloads not being there now than I was when I first posted...because you kept arguing with me.
You should have just let me get my rant on and left me alone and I probably only would have posted once.
Now kindly leave me alone because if you keep arguing with me I will never shut up about this. Really...do NOT post to me again unless you want this thread to be the first thing everyone sees when they read the forums. I'm a chick and I won't stop until I get the last word. Consider yourself warned...
very well
This thread is locked. Please do not use threats in our forums either.
Continued abuse may result in additional steps.
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
civicspace-0.8.5.tgz for php4 avail here
While I am personally putting together the more current Drupal 474 and CiviCRM 1.5, I do have a copy of civicspace-0.8.5.tgz (php 4 & drupal) available from my testing. This should be their most current version.
My new project is not ready yet so I'll put it up on one of my other domains. Access is of course free, but you are welcome to visit the site its hosted on.
http://PrivacyDigest.com/
http://PrivacyDigest.com/test/civicspace-0.8.5.tgz
Yay! Yay! Yay! You are my
Yay! Yay! Yay!
You are my new favorite person! ((((((((((MacRonin))))))))))) <---Biggest Cyber Bear Hug EVER!!!
See how easy it is to make me happy...just give me what I want! (I'm such a chick, lol) :D
Thank you! Also frustrated
Dear MacRonin,
Thank you so much for posting this civic space download! I too have been frustrated with trying to access the download from the CivicSpace website. I am an extreme noob to the whold cms world and after many months of struggling with Plone i discoverd CivicSPace and was over-joyed to see that this was a program that would easily meet all my needs and much more user-friendly. My joy was quickly squashed when i discovered that i could not access the download.
I sent several e-mails to the CivicSpace team to try and find out what is happening to the CivicSpace download and only received canned replies encouraging me to try the ASP version (with no mention of cost).
In the meantime, i have installed Drupal 4.7 and have been very happy with it so far, but really need the functions provided by CivicSpace. I have not as yet been able to successfully install CiviCRM on top of Drupal.
But it is also my understanding from previousl posts that Drupal + CiviCRM does NOT = CivicSpace.
Does anyone know if this is true or not?
My concern also at this point is whether or not the CiviCRM module will continue to be supported or if it will become an obsolete Drupal add-on module that will no longer work with the latest verssions of Drupal. And also whether current version of CivicSpace that users are using will also become obsolete with no (unpaid) support.
Any thoughts?
I will write to the CiviCRM folks one more time before throwing out this program and searching for yet another.
with a sigh,
grace
...
Announcing CiviCRM 1.5
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
And THAT is why I don't do
And THAT is why I don't do the polite letter writing thing. ;) I hate canned responses...