I am about to ask for help, knowing I am risking offending the hard-working members of the development team, but I do not wish to offend. Mainly I'm hoping someone will say "what you're looking for exists, you just haven't found it yet. It's here, just click this link: ________."
As great as Drupal can be - - and I mean that - - it is great stuff, lots of great modules, and there are so many great examples of what people have done with it; the problem is that the documentation is a tough nut to crack.
What I wish for is a table with two columns, that we can filter by Drupal version. Column A would be "If you want to do such and such..." and Column B would be "Then follow these steps...."
I've searched for ways of doing what I would like to do. The problem with searching is the results. Since so many people don't "search first", the search result set is usually 29 other people asking the same question in so many different ways, but, because of the way they are asked, it is hard to make use of the answers to those questions--they are usually very specific to a particular user's problems with a particular module. Or, in other cases, the question the person is asking is the question I'm asking, but it gets included in the search results because it uses some of the same words my question uses.
Browsing around, you see lists of modules, and you think, well there are so many, there must be some way to do what it is I want t do. And there are a few examples where there is more than one module that seem to do the same thing. If you spend a lot of time reading, because there are A LOT of modules, you might find the one that will do what you want to do. Or, what you might find is one that does almost exactly what you want, but not quite, but you don't discover that until after you've spent a lot of time making it work for your particular installation of Drupal.
I don't expect installing and customizing a Drupal installation to be as simple as joining Facebook and adding a few applications. I realize that we're supposed to bring something of our own to the table. I'm just wondering, am I the only one wanting a straightforward guide like the table I suggested above?
Thanks for any advice you might offer,
Thomas
Comments
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The problem with straight forward is there are multiple ways to achive the same thing with Drupal because it acts like more of a framework then a CMS.
documentation writers try, they really do. However they can't take into consideration every single nuance every user wants or they'd never get any of their own projects done.
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My posts & comments are usually dripping with sarcasm.
If you ask nicely I'll give you a towel : )
Drupal has a bit of a
Drupal has a bit of a learning curve. You have to eat the elephant one bite at a time.
--
Erik
I sympathise
I'm two weeks into my new life with Drupal and have an existing web site that I built over six years which I want to convert, so I've got lots of features to replicate as best I can. Plus my hosting provider has already moved to 6.x which means I've got to make do with only those modules that have been upgraded.
So far I bought the David Mercer Drupal 6 book which was a good introduction for someone who's never used a CMS (and is up-to-date with 6.x). I've also found some good video tutorials at various sites although most are for version 5. Fortunately (for me) I'm well-versed in HTML, PHP, CSS and databases.
Some degree of frustration appears to come with the territory!
table with two columns
I think a table with two columns to find help in is a great idea especially for people who are new to Drupal.
...
Actually, what you're looking for does exist, kind of: http://drupal.org/handbook/customization
However, there's an infinite number of "If you want to do such and such..." -- from If you want to display a block on pages of a specific content type to If you want to make a wiki. Also, a lot of them would take several long pages to answer, and would hardly fit into a nice two column table.
And, of course, all documentation must be made by someone. You're very welcome to add your own recipies to the handbook. Concrete suggestions for improving how the stuff is organized are also very welcome. (I'll throw in an If you want to help with the documentation link -- hopefully you'll find it useful :-)
for many of us, it is still too early to write documentation
The mention of "to make a wiki" made me think that an organized wiki that is well edited would be a terrific help. Let's say that a few of us keep asking the same question, but using different words, or with different specific problems. The wiki editor(s) would push those questions into the wiki page that answers the questions, and other editors would help keep the answers geared toward the current version of Drupal. (The "If you want to make a wiki" link you added, for example gives great directions, if you're still running on Drupal 5.) I think it takes the support forum style of Question-Answer to the next level.
Here's another idea, how about any time anyone writes anything, they have to give the version number, so that when we are searching for help, we can limit our search to the version we're using? I know some of the pages or sections of this site can do that, but not all do. The trouble with the success of Drupal is that there are SO MANY modules, etc., to go through. Maybe there could be an option such as "current version" so that if something carries over from one version to the next, it doesn't get left out or left behind.
Yes, I know this sounds like a ton of work. But to paraphrase Mark Twain, documentation is its own reward.
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It is incorrect to say that it's too early for any one to write documentation. Fact is, it's actually better that newcomers write documentation because they will be writing it from a new comers perspective which benefits other newcomers. This is what experienced users have such a hard time with when writing documentation. Granted many can't write the sophisticated things that may need to be documented, however, you can start a page and begin the process and then ask for help to flesh some of the ideas out.
Coders write code, and when they document they still speak in code and new users tend to state its all over their head. The coders have already given hours upon hours giving you free code to do with what you want, they deserve a rest now and again.
NancyW now known as NancyDru was a newcomer when she wrote the drupal cookbook, so it can be done. All one needs is the desire to do so and become part of the community rather then toeing a line that every one else should do the things you want to benefit from.
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My posts & comments are usually dripping with sarcasm.
If you ask nicely I'll give you a towel : )
well then
Okay, first of all, I'm glad that no one took offense at my mild criticism, which I hope came across in a constructive way. I have found a less mature attitude in forums elsewhere, so there must be something to the Drupal crowd.
Second, what do you experienced coders think of the drupal-pedia idea hinted at above? From your encouraging remarks, it seems like if a new person like myself started it off, put an encyclopedic-framework in place, then maybe other contributers would help keep it on track?
I wouldn't want to duplicate anyone else's efforts, or side-track some other great efforts. In my experience with volunteer groups, there is a limit to how many GOOD projects can be accomplished--one too many, and the quality of all the projects starts to decline.
Advice? Warnings?
Thanks,
Thomas
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This idea has come up in the past. documentation should be done on drupal.org, and with the tools that drupal provides. You can request to become part of the documentation team whereby you have the ability to use the tools of that role.
If the idea is that you want documentation off site and with a 3rd party program, that would be difficult task to pull off and I don't believe many long time users would contribute as we have here on drupal.org a plethora of documentation that has just recently been reorganized and is continuing to grow.
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My posts & comments are usually dripping with sarcasm.
If you ask nicely I'll give you a towel : )
definitely drupal
No, I didn't mean to imply an off-site, 3rd party documentation program.
The handbooks *are* an organized wiki
Something that's easy to miss is that the handbooks (http://drupal.org/handbooks) are an organized wiki (although they're using book navigation instead of wiki navigation, which makes the "organized" part easier to pull off). Any registered user can add pages. Try it yourself -- find a topic you know something about (for instance an undocumented contrib module, see http://drupal.org/handbook/config/contribmodules), navigate to the place it should be in the handbook, and click "add child page" at the bottom of the page.
Editing is restricted to doc team members, see joining the documentation team for how you can join this exalted :-) group. As far as I know, all who ask get to join -- it's not an exclusive priviledge. (It's been tried to let all users edit the handbooks, but that led to too much time wasted cleaning up after spammers.)
I suggest you try to pinpoint what your new drupal-pedia would have that the handbooks currently don't offer, and then use this to try to improve the handbooks.
I like your suggestion about adding frequently asked questions to the handbook and pointing there instead of repeating the same answer again and again. I was about to suggest you open an issue to add it to http://drupal.org/contribute/support, but I see it's there already. That illustrates part of the problem: There's a lot of information here, the trick is finding it...
that's it in 11 words
zirvap: What you said in 11 words: "There's a lot of information here, the trick is finding it..." is exactly right.