Steven Peck (sepeck) asked me recently why I was criticizing, and "what did he ever do to me?" ...
As I see it now, drupal.org runs on volunteer work and donated funds. That makes it a moral obligation and sometimes with legal consequences as to how donations are being used. At least the moral obligation of providing for the users of drupal.org should be pretty clear.
As Drupal comes more of age, some issues will inevitably pop up, and the unnecessary strict CVS requirement for inclusion of contributed code is one of these. See How do I get my module into the contribution tree? about the acidfree.module which was denied and the premium.module which seems to be suffering a similar fate.
I think drupal.org contributors have a right to ask for changes to accomodate how jointly contributed means and work is being administered. The possible future with Drupal as a foundation will only further clarify this. That would mean more accountability.
Asking for change should not necessarily be seen as something bad. It is in the interest of future Drupal users, and especially newcomers to streamline and round the edges of the drupal.org experience.
;-)
So, without all of this bickering and silliness - why not get around to fixing things like Dries asked for when opening for suggestions to a improved "open support topics" feature ?
Comments
Voting
It seems drupal.org had voting before - judging from very old nodes posted. Why aren't voting and topics being put forward for voting nowadays ? It would seem a simple solution to something with pressing questions - like those of "CVS requirement for listing of contribution" or "open support topics" etc ...
Voting is an inate feature of Drupal, even with improvement in the form of contributions. It is one thing that could be deployed effectively on the new drupal.org infrastructure. A summary page of voting issues and action taken would also be nice.
;-)
I was not bickering, I was
I was not bickering, I was tired of all your little aside comments about what site maintainers won't do and wanted clarification. You seemed to be under a fundamental misunderstanding as to what it is we do.
The first and only paragraph says it all: http://drupal.org/site-maintainers
You have expressed several times across many forum posts your disatisfaction with the documentation. I ask you again to please submit such documentation that you see lacking so that others that come after you benefit from your contribution to Open Source volunteer services.
As a bonus, you will get your name listed here:
http://drupal.org/node/14205
-sp
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
If you remember ..
.. I only asked that the license information be brought to a more prominent place in the handbook pages and improved upon with some sentences. But that was another specific matter - Drupal Licensing information needs a handbook page which seemed pressing after the obvious bewilderment as to what the GPL implies by drupal.org regulars.
;-)
What exactly is it...
...that when someone says something like:
you don't seem to pay attention to it.
This is open source - talk is cheap. Actions speak louder than words etc and a million other cliches.
I don't know if you've noticed, but the ratio of talk to action around here seems to have risen dramatically lately.
If the number of people taking action doesn't increase then all that extra talk is effectively redundant noise distracting those that do take action.
Do you want to be part of the problem or part of the solution?
--
Anton
Want to enact change? It's easy!
There's nothing wrong with asking for change, but it is wholly unrealistic to expect every change to be implemented. A much better and more effective approach than merely asking for change is to take steps to enact change yourself. And Drupal's community provides countless ways in which to do that.
For instance, I struggled a lot when first trying to wrap my head around Drupal development and CVS. Though I'd done quite a bit of web development work in the past, all of it hand been on solo projects I'd built from scratch. So the concepts of learning and using an API for development and checking code in against a version control system and whatnot were somewhat foreign to me. I studied what was in the handbook, but there were some errors and most of what I found was written at a level for someone already familiar with these topics.
I therefore decided to take notes about every last thing I did, pages/websites I found helpful, new things I learned, etc. in order to help myself gain understanding. And then as I began to understand things better, I started "formally" writing up different areas and submitting them as handbook pages. Happily, all of the handbook pages I submitted were added to the handbook once they'd been reviewed, and now I've been made a member of the docs team so I can help review other peoples' submissions.
I also noticed the module help pages have broken links. I inquired as to why this was, and was told it was so that auto-generation of the modules' help_hook functions could take place. Fair enough, that makes sense, but the links are still a problem. So I proposed an alternate solution, and then went on to create a "proof of concept" script that would do this parsing automatically. At the request of others who were interested in these capabilities, I'm now refining the script to possibly be included in some kind of module and will hopefully have a core-wide patch developed soon.
So you see? It's very easy to enact change, you just have to have the right approach:
1. Inquire
Ask "why is this like this?" Don't make assumptions. Maybe there's a good reason. Try to find out who the people are behind the decision-making process for your particular issue, and talk with them to see if there's a way to create a solution that both meets your own needs and satisfies the existing requirements.
2. Research
See what other solutions are out there that you might be able to extend to meet your needs. See how other people are handling the problem you're currently facing. Talk with other community members to see if they see merit in your idea, or if they have an alternate approach.
3. Propose
In as much detail as possible, outline the steps to fix the problem. Do a mock-up of what you think the solution would look like, and describe how it would work. Anyone can propose an idea. "I think Drupal should do this." Great! But an idea that has been researched, that is backed up with a plan, and which is able to quantify its propose and effectiveness is far more likely to get attention and to later be implemented.
4. Refine
Get feedback from the community, as this can often improve upon your original idea. Take criticisms and either address them or incorporate them into your plan.
5a. Be patient
Depending on how well you've written your proposal, you might catch the eye of a developer who says, "Yes! I know exactly what you mean, and I want that very thing too!" You might catch the eye of someone with money who says, "Yes! I will pony up $500 to put into a pool for that feature!" which will in turn attract a developer.
5b. Be willing to DIY
On the other hand, you might receive luke-warm acceptance, or you might get a lack of response because people don't fully understand your idea and how it would work. Sometimes the best matter is to take things into your own hands, and Drupal.org gives you literally dozens of opportunities to do so. You can:
- Submit a patch via the projects system to improve modules
- Engage in discussion with developers via the mailing lists to improve infrasctructure
- Submit documentation with the handbook system to improve documentation
- Put forward money to hire a developer who would otherwise be working on something else to address your issue.
....and on and on and on.
By contrast, here are some things that will NOT help enact change, and which I've seen entirely too much of here lately:
Accusations
I've seen a lot of talk lately in a very accusatory manner directed towards developers, implying that they are lazy, selfish, uncaring, and worse. Nothing will make people less sympathetic to your cause than taking this kind of attitude toward them.
Demands
No one from this community is being paid by "Drupal" to do work (your initial sentence about donations is off-base, since no one is personally profiting from donations--they go back into infrastructure which in turn benefits everyone), so they tend to go after issues that interest them, or issues that they're being paid by their employers to address, and so on. That may mean that no one has the interest or the time to fix your specific issue. Either accept that, or take steps to fix the issue yourself, as outlined above. Demanding that it be done only makes people less willing to help.
Impatience
Rome wasn't built in a day, neither was Drupal, and neither will be your brand new concept. Things take time in order to be properly thought-out, planned, and implemented. Accept this, do not be frustrated by it. If every idea was thrown in willy-nilly, we would not have the stability of a system which we all know and love.
You bring up a lot the restrictive process of obtaining a CVS account. But I don't know if you've ever inquired as to why it's setup this way. The reason is that the contributed modules/translations/themes etc. are not "jailed" as they are over at a site like SourceForge, where each developer has his/her own private area which can be mucked around with independently. The way things are setup now, if I can commit a module, I can also accidentally overwrite one of the themes, and I can also change the translation of "Drupal" in German to "Booger." Therefore, it makes total sense for there to be a strict policy on who gets access to these accounts... you wouldn't want a developer (accidentally or not) to taint the quality of the infrastructure held within CVS.
The next logical step might be to do some research into how SourceForge has their CVS server setup, and create a detailed proposal which describes how this can be replicated at Drupal. Include detailed comments about where files could be stored, how quality will be maintained, how accounts will be allocated, etc. Submit it for review by the community, and allow them and the Drupal developers to refine the proposal. Then be patient to see if one of the core maintainers could enact the change, or be willing to DIY, perhaps by setting up a bounty either for the task, or for additional infrastructure which might be required to add this functionality to Drupal.org.
I suspect that a lot of people who complain about the rate of change within the Drupal community are those who do not have the free time, energy, patience, or skill to do some or all of the above recommended steps. And that's fine, I fully acknowledge it is A LOT of work. But then realize it is really pretty unreasonable to expect other people both to have all of these qualities, AND to be willing to bend to your desire, all at no cost to you. Have some compassion for the other side, and take responsibility to do what you can in order to make it easier for your ideas to see the light of day.
The points being discussed lately
.. are how some things are done; namely:
These are drupal.org-issues, not Drupal software issues themselves.
;-)
As for CVS, you clearly have not read what I have written on the subject. Of course not everyobdy should have CVS access to core Drupal.
;-)
All the above points still stand :)
Outline a detailed proposal for alternate solutions. How can the system be reworked to allow contributions from developers who don't know CVS? How can updates to submitted code be handled? How will this look on Drupal.org's site? What additional functionality needs to be added?
Create mock-ups of what new screens would look like. Fix errors in the HTML/CSS where they exist, or try and narrow them down for another developer to do so. Sit with some users and document some usability studies in order to illustrate the effectiveness of your idea.
Answer forum questions yourself, so that developers can stick to developing. Submit handbook documentation that creates a "jump off point" for new users to find answers to questions that come up a lot.
Make an attempt at creating this documentation yourself and submit it for comnunity review. Look into the intricacies of why something might lack official documentation, and figure out if there are ways around this.
Research and discuss alternatives. Lay out a detailed plan which describes exactly what modules could be added, what features could be enabled, what extra functionality could be written to achieve this cohesiveness. Create a mock-up of the site functioning as you envision it for people to comment on.
No one takes issue with asking for improvements, however the method in which they are asked, the level of research that has been performed into an improvements' viability, and the availability of developers all impact on how feasible or desirable it is to implement.
See? Every single one of these issues can be addressed, and it can start with you. If there are things you don't know how to do, simply try your best, post what you come up with, and see if other people can take it to that next step. We're a community, we collaborate. :)
All of my outlined examples were drupal.org issues as well. :)
Well someone is clearly not understanding someone here. :) I was not talking about access to core Drupal--only Dries and maybe 2-3 other people have that. I was referring to what is generally referred to as "CVS access"--commit access to the contributions repository, which contains everything that *isn't* in Drupal core (modules, translations, themes, etc.). There is no "grant access to upload X module" there is only "grant access to update *anything and everything* in the contributions repository." This is the reason for the restricted access, and it makes perfect sense.
Probably creating a third, "sandboxed" repository ala SourceForge for individual users who can only possibly mess up their own work is the best way to go to address these issues. It starts with someone taking the first steps to do the research into what would be involved, how to address the inevitable administrative challenges, and how to go about implementing it. You seem eager to get this changed, so show this same passion for taking the steps to get it done. :)
There are suggestions being posted
.. but they meet a lot of opposition, which is strange, since it's not the actual improvement the disagreement circles around. Some improvements concern posters themselves, and how collating topics like those newcomers create, would be seen as a more friendly welcome.
If you think I'm a bit too confrontational, I just know that's how it works best when you face a group of back-patting locals who won't see it any other way. Online communities and communication face particular challenges in getting humor, tone, mimic and other helpful hints humans normally use. The "hint-sterile" drupal.org forums don't help in any way, and creates a host of misunderstandings; of course language barriers contributes as one of them.
Standing hat-in-hand before some judgemental locals don't seem an effective way to me. It may sound harsh, but that's how I see some of the decisions being made. All the DIY suggestions and drowning the topics of improvements in the veritable void that follows a few pages after the tracker.module seems pretty suboptimal still, so I won't take you up on that one. Drupal.org maintainers are the ones who can improve drupal.org when it needs fixing. We others can provide solutions, but I don't think anyone should be granted siteadmin access either, so it's fine as it is - as long as change gets done.
;-)
There is no lack of suggested solutions to the problems, only back-pedaling and excuses so far it seems. Certainly, the monetary contributions made by drupal.org users and others entitle the to some say ? If not legally (which I suspect it might in the US when asking for contributions), at least morally.
;-)
Ask yourself:
Do you understand how unreasonable you sound to someone who understands how Drupal works ? Besides, the Drupal developement process does in no way resemble any formalized process I have been using, but perhaps more the Agile method like I mentioned to Robert - shunning paperwork, more bureaucracy etc - the very things which you keep petitioning.
;-)
All the money raised was
All the money raised was spent on the hardware and implementing the new infrastructure as was stated in the original request. There is no non-profit foundation at this time, all donations are you trusting that it will be used properly as was mentioned in the original announcement. All the hardware hasa been purchased. Two servers are built. The other two are racked and have the OS installed. Mail services and CVS transfers are being worked on. This consumes a significant amount of some individuals resources.
Webchick outlined the method and manner you ocould contribute positively to the community and see those changes implemented. Your response indicates that you are not interested in working with a community but in standing outside in judgement. I have suggested many times the manner in which anyone can contribute to the community.
There is no lack of suggestions, there is lack of the current people with the time to do actually do things. Your unwillingness to help actually do work is part of the volunteer and resource issue you mock.
It is appearent from your post that when you say DIY help, your post indicates you really mean Do it the way You say to and you don't actually have to help.
Your adding little smiley faces does not actually make your post read in any way shape or form in a humorous manner.
The Drupal development process is documented in the handbook. WebChick out lined exactly how it works. Welcome to the community.
-sp
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
You are wrong.
If I had siteadmin access I would have a newcomer forum and some other parts up before you could wink with an eye. You know it, and so do many others, that there is close to no effort to make these changes. Trying to hide behind the statements "you are not interested in working" or helping out, does not take away from the fact that it is far easier to make these changes than make 5 replies to my posts.
;-)
You who are siteadmins could have done so in less than 2 minutes of work - faster than you could type your next post here. :-p
;-)
Eldarin, I have stated
Eldarin, I have stated publically my reasons that I think having a 'newcomers' forum is a bad idea. We don't have enough people answering questions in the forums now and we continue not having enough people helping. How would adding one more forum that remains a segragated area help?
For the record, I am a site-maintainer and cannot create new forums so your starting assumption is wrong and poorly researched.
-sp
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
Hmmm
Well, that all comes down to how the drupal.org access-permissions are laid out and enabled - so how would possibly I know about that ?
;-)
It still does not take away from the fact that it is done in a jiffy - ok - by someone the sufficient permissions.
Also, you exclude the opinion of drupal.org users and newcomers - calling it a bad idea. If you cared or were interested, you would petition your siteadmin peers with greater powers to submit a poll about it.
>>--->X
You could have simply asked.
No matter what I or anyone else does or says, you are evidently not going to participate and misconstrue statements and fail to answer the questions people have asked of you.
I said I think it is a bad idea. I remain convinced that people want to segragate folks off in their own little area and not see the issues newcomers face. Without dealing with the questions, we have no idea what needs to be fixed. Handbook pages would not be updated, I would not have come up with the configurations guide idea, I would not have come up with the best practices section.
We need to involve new people in the main of the community. Then new comers will never realize when they transistion from being new, to seeing where they can help.
I have yet to have anyone provide an answer to my statement except they want to continue to segragate newcomers from others.
Your assumption of my not caring is again false, I think your desire is based on a false assumption that segragation is a good think, so have no interest in polling the other site admins, many who have weighed in previously on this issue elsewhere.
I care enough to have taken concrete action. I write handbook pages to help newbies (see left hang sig link). I update the handbook. I actually answer forum questions to the best of my ability. I develop a plan to introduce configuration guides with community input. Much of this is available through my tracker.
In the meantime, you are welcome to continue to make other new comers and volunteers feel as appreciated as you have consistently done.
-sp
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
Why is your view the only one valid ?
What has your opinion about what is right for drupal.org to do about anything ?
Seriously.
Shouldn't there be a vote or something ?
If I see a newcomer "trampled" on anymore with misinformation or using your clout as an excuse - I will chime in again and again ...
And what post have I missed replying on ? Where ? Where ? This infernal threading display doesn't help much there.
;-)
(If I only could go back and edit my posts for context, spelling like you ... ;-)
I have stated my opinion.
I have stated my opinion. You have yet to present a case for 'me' to change my opinion. You are welcome to particpate with actual work as webchick suggested. I have no more clout than anyone else at this point except as presenting my case against a bad idea as I am doing here and in the other thread where it was discussed with more people.
-sp
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
So ..
.. does the buck stop with you ?
If you are convinced, then it will get fixed ?
Also, thank you for welcoming my further contributions, suggestions, answers etc.
;-)
I'm done with this thread
I'm done with this thread eldarin. I said I welcome participation with actual work
You evade any real answers to the questions I posed to you with attacks on me. Your earlier post really says it all.
-sp
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
Again ...
that's your point of view.
There are other angles of looking at things, and repeating arguments which don't mean anything doesn't help.
If you continue asking for contributions, and I show any but get flamefested for it - what are you really proposing ?
I have at least a few suggestions, concrete and more outlining for further discussion, but you seem more eager to continue the festivities. I can't see how you try and pull the DIY all the time; because who actually needs to tick the options or write the taxonomy entry ? It might not be you, but you would know who ...
;-)
Untrampled Newcomer
Bob = Newcomer
Bob /= Trampled
I have not attempted to submit any work yet, as I'm still coming up to speed. If I had a suggestion about improvements to the site that I believed would take an afternoon or less, I would set up a subsite on my domain and create and example site that shows off how brilliant my idea is. I would then look up webchick's handbook on submitting change requests or contributing patches/modules.
I won't suggest this to you, as it has already been done better than I could. This is just my take.
_________
bob-thompson.com
If I may ....
Yikes, I'm hesitant to step in between you two, LOL --
As a complete newbie, I'm thrilled that all the posts are mixed in terms of diffifulty level (or "newbie-ness," if you will). When I come to check and see if my newbie questions have been answered, I also read the other topics and have already learned a few things I didn't even know I wanted to learn until they were right there in front of me.
It's only my persepctive, but there it is, for what it's worth.
Hehe
Your attitude with the "yikes" and the LOLs is what is the right one.
;-)
Have some sense of humor, and never loose that smile and it will get you anywhere.
Don't worry - I have been discussing with some guys with a sense of humor for years - and have no bruises to complain about even after thousands of posts. Read and have a laugh .. maybe .. http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=45443
I thought it was hilarious.
;-)
-1 for Newbie Forum
Ditto to lilywhite's sentiment.
_________
bob-thompson.com
Not really
Not all code is ready or possible for contributions, and sometimes breaks a lot of other Drupal features. If you don't know what the link to the Handbook-need-improvement was about, I suggest you re-read what you have tried to forget you posted there.
;-)
/me shrugs
All I can really speak on is what my "Drupal experience" has been, and what I've observed.
I've seen opposition to ideas, but I rarely see opposition to ideas with a well-founded and community-reviewed plan attached, with defined action steps. Particularly from someone who is willing to help with their implementation, or has sign-on from someone who is.
I've personally experienced finding issues here and there and being amazed with how much power I as a mere "Drupal newbie" had to directly change those things. And how receptive the developer community was to someone who was eager to help, and how they helped take steps to enable me to do so.
I think a lot of it is in how you approach these issues. You can approach them with the mindset that Drupal "owes" you something, or you can approach it with the mindset that they are opportunities for you to personally get involved to collaborate within a broader community, to meet some friends, and learn some things along the way. I know which one's worked better for me. :)
Eager to help ...
If you don't think any of these discussions are about improving drupal.org - what are they about ?
I have actually seen anything else than "receptive developer community" with regards to some contributions. In particular when they start prerequisiting CVS accounts to get a footing.
%-) and /me technicolor yawn emote in Forgotten Realms
Just out of curiosity...
This is not an attempt to attack, or in any way insult. I'm just curious... How many community sites, or even large discussion forums, have you administered or moderated? I'm not asking about technical development (programming, etc) or business sites/web apps.
I've worked with several large communities in that capacity, and I will say flat out: code takes time, but reorganization takes LOTS of time. Enabling image posting to the Drupal site, or MP3 uploading, or freelinking, is also trivial from a technical standpoint. Whether a particular change SHOULD be made is indeed a topic for discussion and occasionally debate.
Changes have been and continue to be made to the Drupal.org site -- not necessarily at the pace some folks would like. But as I said earlier, changes to a large-scale community site are NOT just about code. They're about figuring out what makes sense for the entire userbase, and trying not to invest time in making changes that turn out to be useless, cluttering the site for no real value.
This doesn't mean that endless delays and such are called for. But I do think this criticism in particular -- that 'easy changes' could be made 'immediately' -- overlooks the fact that a million easy changes could be made, and deciding WHICH changes will be valuable is the hard part.
This is not a question if laziness or snobbishness, but a question of volunteer admins doing their best to make the site work well for as many people as possible. This is why it takes time, and this is why working with people -- following the steps Webchick outlined -- is a good, good thing.
One example you mentioned -- adding an extra option and a table to collate open support topics -- is "close to no effort." Would it be possible for you to whip up a small module that does this, and upload it as a possible addition to Drupal.org? No, that does not mean it will automatically be used. But it does mean that you've contributed and that the site's admins are far more likely to give it a serious look. I'm sure it would be useful on other sites as well.
I don't see that as "Standing hat-in-hand before some judgemental locals..." just as being a good citizen in a group volunteer effort.
--
Eaton — Partner at Autogram
I do agree
making a site accessible and usable for the multitudes is important. But you probably also have experienced how Drupal HEAD sometimes makes drupal.org a bit unstable ? So if one goes by Drupal history and seeming Drupal design methodology, I applause you for following different and strict guidelines, but it seems methodology is not so strict in the case of making drupal.org changes - although anything broken gets quickly fixed.
Of course all Drupal project issues gets a minimum of testing, anyone looking through project issues can vouch for that. Still, it seems kind of contradictionary demanding a pile-load of preparatory work from outside contributors to get their voice in a discussion. To me it seems like a very defensive attitude.
When it comes to my example of adding a table with indexing foreign key nid/vid node-table ... It really is a small effort in terms of coding. Of course it would need themeing and some too ... But then again, look at http://drupal.org/planet ... how much themeing or deployment delay was involved there ?
;-)
As it seems, different standards are being demanded, this apparently also goes for modules with overlapping functionality - as it might get ripped apart by some and bureaucracy-ridden included later on in listings with welcoming back-patting.
Large sites need to be functional, but when there's something amiss - why avoid letting it be discussed properly ? Why not welcome discussions, suggestions and other contributions ?
PS! I have participated some years on a minute, but friendly site with a touchingly caring bunch of people trying to take your money away for a living, called http://www.elitetrader.com/ . That should probably get Gerhard Googling in a jiffy, if he doesn't just ignore what I keep writing.
;-)
Is this a different list of issues?
I may be having a memory lapse, or deja vu, but it seems like you replied to webchick's suggestions for each bullet point by reprinting the bulleted list in its entirety. Although I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, that could be construed as dismissive of her suggestions.
As a new user myself, I want the contrib modules posted on the drupal.org to be well tested and, if possible, well documented. If you have a module or patch that you feel is valuable which the developers find unsuitable for the Modules page I have a suggestion that may work well for you.
Why not put up your own download site, or group with other like minded folks, to start a community modules page that is less restrictive, and about which you are very open about the fact that due to your limited resources, may not be well tested: use at your own risk. I think a site like this could benefit all. Then ask to be listed in the links area, and cross link back to Drupal.org.
If you do initiate such a project, you should definitely ask for donations to help defray the cost - and to supply beer for you and your colleagues to celebrate a job well done.
_________
bob-thompson.com
Excellent example of specificity
webchick,
You are very good at being specific in your suggestions, providing illustrations, and proposing possible solutions. Besides being specific, your proposals are also well thought out. I was impressed by your suggestion for unanswered post filters in the above referenced thread.
We would all do well to follow your example. Thanks.
_________
bob-thompson.com
To Handbook?
Wow,
Webchick, this is good handbook material; somewhat like Tips for the forum but then about change.
I don't know about everything else
But the acidfree module has been on the downloads page since yesterday at least. http://drupal.org/node/28069
Laura
===
pingVision • scattered sunshine
_____ ____ ___ __ _ _
Laura Scott :: design » blog » tweet
The original requestor
The original requestor wasn't denied, he was asked for more information as the original request was lacking in some. Boris and killes are following up on the verbage for the CVS request page to see if it can be improved on what information is important to be included in a request.
-sp
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
Bickering and silliness over ?
Well, then hopefully those with additional permissions to maintain and develop drupal.org can act on some of the concrete suggestions.
I can't believe all the silly discussions repeating the DIY attitude when there's almost nothing to the tasks at question and there is no question about who have access to perform them ???
If your attitude were
If your attitude were somwehat better I'd maybe read your suggestions...
--
Drupal services
My Drupal services
--
Drupal services
My Drupal services
That's somewhat disappointing ...
.. and probably a reason why some of the defensiveness and discussions get so way out and off topic.
I try and read carefully, every word, sentence or meaning you try to construct.
;-)
From someone opting to improve drupal.org one should expect better. I hope your customers (even difficult ones) gets better treatment. You perhaps still have something to learn about something called customer relations.
It kind of reminds me of the old rec.humor BOFH stories.
;-)
Thanks.
Everybody gets what he pays
Everybody gets what he pays for...
You didn't pay.
--
Drupal services
My Drupal services
--
Drupal services
My Drupal services
Ahhh ..
... cute that you looked up this name in the donations database, but I might inform you that I never ever use my real name in something like online communities.
Those who know (of) me know who I am by looking at my posts or workplaces/projects, as I'm not hiding that, and noone has the same workplace-combo I have.
I find that using nicknames avoid being found or approached physically by some nutcases who might get funny ideas. It works, trust me.
;-)
You could have bought all
You could have bought all the servers alone and still ddn't pay me. I will ignore this thread from now on. It was a bad idea to start reading it.
--
Drupal services
My Drupal services
--
Drupal services
My Drupal services
Hey ...
I might have stated that I made all my friends and partners from my university-startup millionaires somewhere, but that doesn't include every soul on the planet in the friends-bucket. You will still have no clue if I contributed or not, since you won't know my real name - at least not from me.
;-)
There are some essential points to success in businees, and they easily replicate anywhere.
"Payment" can be a lot of things...
Generally, negative attitudes and demands are not considered payment by a community of volunteers, even if they are backed up by $$$.
Eaton's nailed this on the head, really. Changes which are "simple" to implement on the surface have many other things attached to them which make them more difficult (does this need active personnel to maintain? will it effectively address the problem, or would another solution be better? etc.).
I also appear to have been misunderstood. I'm not advocating the introduction of a formalized, systems development lifecylcle into suggesting changes to Drupal. I'm all for agile development. :) "Inquiring" can be as simple as a 5 minute IRC conversation with a few people. A "proposal" might be as simple as a forum post. But it pays to do the initial groundwork before proposing something, to help ensure it is better received.
To use a concrete example, I've outlined a suggestion on how to implement the "Unanswered topics" feature. Initially, I was just going to talk generally about how, "It should just be a link at the top of the forum list." I decided to make a mock-up though. As I did, other things started occurring to me, such as making additions to the tracker module to increase the functionality, which could then apply to all kinds of node types, not just forums. As a result, my proposal is much more well-planned and can be used as a guide if the changes do get implemented. Much more helpful than it would be if I'd just made the simple suggestion alone.
Hope you take my comments constructively, or at least they're helpful to someone out there in Drupal land. :)
Sure ...
Some comments seem not that well thought out, but could still be valuable. Fortunately, there are the forums and project issues available to communicate with drupal.org maintainers.
Sometimes, after numerous corrections of misunderstandings presented - a constructive suggestion remedying the issue (see the two top posts before the festivities commenced) still does not get anything but gripes.
Posting in the correct forum about it, being polite and to the point about it - nothing seems to help sometimes. But I guess, it's allright ... to many, I don't like to see it that way, and I react to it many times.
c'mon guys...
I think it's great that concerns, ideas are being voiced. It means people care....while it's inevitable that some might disagree or take the hump or take constructive criticism the wrong way, comments like that aren't very helpful killes and only help to enflame and turn the discussion into a flame-fest.
Dub
Currently in Switzerland working as an Application Developer with UBS Investment Bank...using Drupal 7 and lots of swiss chocolate
Pretty much flameproof
While flames don't stop me, and I don't shy away either, I find them utterly meaningless.
;-)
Like stated before, the hotheads with a temper always manages to make entertaining puppets out of themselves, no matter of community clout.
I think that some commitment to getting things fixed out would benefit drupal.org a lot. Dries' opening for suggestions is an example of how to deal with things. If some commitment, or even voting took place, even better.
It is not the first post of
It is not the first post of this particular user that made me aware that some of my work on Drupal is going to the wrong people. Sure you can label his actions as "trying to help". To me they are rather annoying, don't lead anywhere, etc. He's the kind of user that makes me wish I had the time to write the killfile.module I've always wanted.
--
Drupal services
My Drupal services
--
Drupal services
My Drupal services
Those good old days ...
I remember that one story about when someone called up the BOFH in his coffe-break and it was someone who said that their floppydrive was eating their floppies. When they put a floppy in there it just "plopped" and it wouldn't eject. As the user had some really important work on a floppy he had to have it resolved. The BOFH told him to insert the floppy into the slot and try some command. The floppy just "plopped" into the empty floppydrive bay-slot ...
(well, it's from memory - more than 10 years ago ... =)
A kill -9 don't or rm -rf don't solve anything in these proxy-laden days. Some reflective existensialism is always good for the upper grey matter.
;-)
I'm shocked!
I'm shocked! I spent 30 minutes for just reading this; serious and professional developers spent even more while they also wrote something. Lots of people spent maybe 500usersx30min=250 hours = approx 31 (8-hours) working days !!!
And that all is just to explain something to a person who doesn't have a RESPECT to people who spent LOTS AND LOTS OF TIME for the thing he uses!
I suggest deleting all his posts from this topic and if he'll write again, just delete his account.
PS And, great respect that you all tried to explain him many times, but you all should have seen much earlier that he is just a flamer and it's just a way of seeming to be something serious for himself. He won't do anything useful for the community, why spend time explaining him something and reading his posts?
Sorry for my English and for being not too polite, but it seems to be only the way in this case.
We're not really discussing
eldarin,
Read your statement out of context, for some objectivity:
A few observations:
Based on this thread alone, it seems you are frustrated because you believe your ideas and suggestions are dismissed.
You receive very thoughtful and constructive replies that specifically demonstrate the method for achieving what you claim to want: for your suggestions to be implemented.
You reply to these suggestions by dismissing or ignoring them without giving them a try, or providing any evidence as to how these methods have failed you, and complain again that your opinion is dismissed. You suggest that sepeck believe's opinion is the only one that counts, and then you ignore his.
This really isn't a discussion as I understand a discussion to be the two way exchange of ideas. This does, however, fit my understanding of a demand. Perhaps the others feel the same, and this is why your posts are taken as such?
I'd really like to see some of your ideas implemented. I don't like the idea of a newbie forum, but I do like the idea of creating a taxonomy for the modules. It takes me a very long time to wade through those looking for the bits I need. Do one up. I, for one, would be grateful.
-Bob
PS - As a side note regarding the use of emotes, when I read something to the effect of, "So you are some judgemental local I must bow to get my ideas implemented, LOL," I do not find that humorous. Appending ascerbic remarks with a wink does not make them less ascerbic. It reads as though the author feels she can say anything she wants with no regard for a person's feelings as long as she punctuates every sentence with LOL. Not so.
_________
bob-thompson.com
more productive
Rather than continually criticizing the existing system, why not make better use of your time by assisting the system where opportunities exist? For instance, you obviously like to write (lol). Why not help with documentation writing? If there's anything that Drupal could use more of, it's additional contributions to the handbook and revisions of exisiting pages. You'll find that you can make a lot of positive changes for the community that way that will benefit a lot of people. Join the Drupal docs list. We would love to have someone willing to write as much as you do :)
Thank you
Sure, it sounds promising. I tried some concrete suggestions - even including some sentences to the Drupal handbook, but somehow Steven/sepeck and others seem to be forgetting about it. (see http://drupal.org/node/32495#comment-57004 and the links within)
It's much easier to get contributions by when using other usernames than mine right now. However, I explained why I don't back down from the flames hurled at me elsewhere in this thread. ;-)
Don't you also think these flamewars are wasteful ? I think I was more effective getting flamewars ended elsewhere. Must sharpen my electronic pencil some more ...
;-)
Still, criticizing what's wrong when needed seem sort of the right thing to do. Too bad it gets so many heads burning so hot ... unfortunately, some calm only come with age/experience and having passed the hormonous phases. If we could avoid the hormones, maybe some work could be accomplished ?
??
Flamewars? Really?
I really think you are imagining it and trying to beat up the whole thing. All I've seen is a bunch of "what are you on about?" or "why don't you actually contribute something instead?", then a few people understandably giving up on your prolific whining and digs at them.
If I was a little more uncharitable, I'd think you're really just trolling and (unsuccesfully so far) attempting to provoke a flamewar. Maybe you should go and hone your skills elsewhere - how about the OpenBSD mailing lists?
I don't think Drupal is really the right project for provoking flamewars - everyone is far too polite. Or is that part of the challenge for you?
--
Anton
Being concrete
I don't think I'm misunderstanding some of the persistence. I think it is what I know as flaming.
If you try and suggest that there are no real issues as foundation to the topics started, which have turned into festive attacks, I think you are wrong.
drupal.org sometimes does not provide a greeting welcome like it could to newcomers, while contributions seem subject to unnecessary restraints. Should I or anyone else keep quiet about it ? How - if not by posting in the forums - should anyone get attention to the issue ? Wouldn't you also agree that there is a common interest in having drupal.org run as well as possible ? Should we keep quiet about that ?
If you go through the layers of harsh posting - and look at the initial post in the topics - the issues are all real, the bickering seem to stem from personal issues. Having the restraints on typing and cooling off before responding always was good advice. Why shouldn't I be able to expect that from anyone on drupal.org ?
Having a sense of humor despite everything and avoid having grudges clamper one's vision seems the sane and sensible thing to me as well.
Besides, the long-bearded and battle-scarred BSDers would have no trouble with me, since I use Linux as my *nix flavour.
;-)
this is trolling
Don't doubt it. Whether it is intentional or not, you appear to be trolling. I may not know much about coding, but I know as much about text/writing/readers as any other member registered on drupal.org, and I can tell you that many people will perceive you as a troll given the persistency and manner in which you pursue your topics of discussion (it's a good thing we don't have a Slashdot-style node moderation system enabled).
But I can also tell that you know how to write very well. If you converted 75% of the time that you spend creating and furthering these debates in the forums to helping those of us on the Drupal docs team create better documentation, your contribution to the project will be much greater in terms of productively making a difference. It's very easy to get people to debate things to death in these forums. It's much harder to get people to write good documentation. Very, very hard.
So if you like to write, come write where you can make a difference.
Easily off-topic
I think many who write in these topics easily cloud personal feelings, instead of being able to discuss the topical issue at hand.
Like this topic - it was about how I think that drupal.org donators have a t least a moral say in how things are run. This could be partly remedied with voting polls like drupal.org used to have - and which is part of the Drupal core package. That way, drupal.org users could participate more directly in improving it. Is that hard to see ?
A few are able to discuss anything objectively, while many just explode into some ballistic rage ... Anger management, perhaps ?
;-)
Having a sense of humor about persistent attacks (those are attacks on person and not the issues mind you) is not a bad thing still, I think. Proving someone wrong when they are misinformed is also quite ok, me included.
;-)
rhetorical failure
A piece of writing is effective when it achieves its goals for communication. When the writing achieves its goals, this is a result of a good rhetorical strategy on the part of the writer. The writer has effectively analyzed the rhetorical situation.
So we can't blame the reader when a piece of writing doesn't achieve it's goals. It's the writer who is at fault for they have poorly analyzed the rhetorical situation or do not have the necessary communication skills.
Here, you are aware that the tone and method of delivery in your writing will generally stimulate lots of negative responses. To continue to write that way anyway is trolling. Imagine if this author simply choose to adopt your position to blame it on the reader's inability to discuss anything objectively without letting feeling getting in the way. His document would never have been written the way that it is, and the civil rights movement in the US might have faced even more drastic turmoil for months or years.
Besides, pathos is one of the rhetorical strategies we use to write more effecively. An sophisticated writer uses pathos to their advantage, rather than merely attributing an emotional response as something the reader has done wrong.
I agree on using good rhetorical strategies
Still, some blatantly ignores what is being written and go on with personal attacks. That is called flaming, I think.
Writing is somewhat unpredictable - take "The Catcher in the Rye" as an example. You never know what estranged persons could be reading your writings.
;-)
Also, writing - especially in electronic forms - is burdened with a whole host of fallacies of communicating effectively. That's why so many forums use the emoticons, or smileys as they are known. There are "ASCII equivalents" to many of these, but sadly those are not that well-known to the modern Internet web-browsing reader.
I have seen people seemingly calm in a computer room at university, and a perfectly normal person to talk too - even kind and helpful, but at the same time resorting to verbal abuse and even (illegal in most countries) death-treaths to someone else in the same room - but communicated over USENET NNTP. So, I think I can say in my experience, electronic writing has some informal characteristics which makes people misinterpret and take gravely personal writings which clearly are not to others. It was even a topic in a computer science class I took years ago.
Blaming the writer for irrational actions taken by readers, is like taking a dump on the free speach and first amendment to me. I know, incitement is prohibited in many countries within certain contexts - like hatecrimes etc. - but I have certainly not made that the topics of threads I have started.
I don't really fancy censorship that much.
;-)
;-)
I think if you winked at me in person that often I'd get very nervous.
;-)
- Robert Douglass
-----
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My sites: www.hornroller.com, www.robshouse.net
Don't worry
It's just for the "obligatory" no-harm-intented thing, that most times gets completely overlooked by some of the more unpredictable readers. People really should take time reading posted answers more carefully.
,-)
(that's the "smiley" I used for years - mostly on #linux and other places, but that's ages and ages ago - since I was the only one using it - people started asking me if I only had one eye)
You see ? Don't ever lose that wink in the eye and humor, Robert.
once again, it's about rhetorical strategies
If a writer knows that their writing will be subject to flames in a particular venue, then the writer can try a different tone in their writing and different rhetorical strategies to discourage it. I write documents all the time for particular rhetorical situations where I know that if I chose some rhetorical strategies, then I know that my arguments will be ill-received and even spark antagonism. But if I implement different strategies, the chances are greater that I will convince others of the validity of my arguments. This is the means to persuade and affect change.
As for the differences between online and F2F discourse, that's been a long known fact that people will have a tendency to flame more online for a variety of reaons: lack of facial and audio cues resulting in miscommunication, empowerment because of the anonymity of online discourse and the disconnect from the physical person, etc. Interestingly, you've already indicated that you feel empowered to say what you want and how you want to say it--obviously regardless of the consequences--because you use a pseudonym.
In this community, some degree of credibility is gained by not hiding behind a pseudonym. And as a writer, you could better persuade others if you take into consideration these problems with online discourse and shape your rhetorical strategies appropriately, rather than merely saying that they are a problem and blaming the readers. I suspect that you are more than capable of this, but have simply not chosen to do so to date for whatever the reason.
You can take my advice or not. I'm not a coder, but I've been a teacher and researcher of rhetoric and electronic communication for years, and almost all experts in my field would agree with me. So I will offer this final piece of advice: if you continue as you have been doing, you will eventually alienate all of the more active members of this community. Or you could choose to communicate more effectively. This is not censorship. It's not about choosing what you say, but how you say it. It's your choice.
Please help me then ...
Could you word the first posts herein which were on a specific topic differently and to your taste, then I will repost it as another, "cleaner" thread topic.
I think they do this in China and North Korea on a regular basis, actually. And I have enough common sense, not to give out my real name, phone number or likewise, on a public electronic forum like this, thanks.
As Dublin Drupaller pointed out in another thread, I fear some topics are seemingly "taboo" to even mention on drupal.org, if some of the more "sensitive" regulars happen to read about it.
;-)
LOL,
LOL,
I get that feeling whenever I mention Distributed Authentication.
It is obvious that many of the core developers or veteran developers have seen my requests. Yet they do not respond to any thing. They just say "it does not work that well" or "try something else".
I no longer need the information for my project but now they have peaked my curiousity. I want to know the truth and why no one is willing to part with their knowledge.
Start x-files music here ;)
Hehe
Some technical topics are a bit difficult to answer or resolve. Also, understanding what direction HEAD is moving or what is up next is not that easy to follow in the fast-paced Drupal development, they have meetings off drupal.org too which we sometimes can get glimpses from by looking in the project issues.
Dristributed authentication seems a bit unresolved and in limbo right now, with Robert Douglass and many others advocating for the removal of drupal.module as a core feature. It probably will get resolved better some time ahead, though.
It still does not explain some of the more difficult attitudes displayed in some threads, but chuck it up to individuality perhaps. It's easy to start flaming, even throwing one' "academic weight" behind in arguing for how right one is.
It's ok for some to raise issues which seem provocative to some, but not for others to do so, perhaps ?
Also I think that you have
Also I think that you have been moved from the front page. By setting the new forum box to the front rather than the active box Dries has effectively hidden and reomoved any threads that get out of hand.
You can't have it both ways.
You can't have it both ways. People in this thread wanted something be done and Dries did what was asked. Now you want Dries to undo what you and others requested that he do and you claim that this was done to secrectly subvert someone else.
Their is no plot. Quite frankly no one has time for such childish nonsense.
-sp
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
Why flame him ?
Did you have no other option than to burst out your flames at him (your last sentence) ?
Ask yourself that before you go to bed, and you might improve upon yourself every morning.
;-)
I didn't flame him eldarin,
I didn't flame him eldarin, merely pointed out the inconsistency in statements with actions taken at the request of the community.
-sp
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
:( The only thing I want is
:( The only thing I want is to know how Distributed Authentication works and how it can be modified.
The other stuff is just me practicing my english. I will go back to lurking in the documentation now.
Soory
Participation is welcome and
Participation is welcome and I did not flame you. I said that Dries did what was asked and that there is no plot to hide things.
I can't answer you question on distrituted authentication as I don't know th eanswer.
-sp
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
Hmm
I would think calling his post "childish nonsense" would constitute Internet "flaming" in english and most other languages. But I'm not someone natively speaking english, so you are probably more of an expert than any of us.
;-)
I don't think "flaming" normally is restricted to only denoming the usual US-style four-letter-word fest, either.
Your skills at reading seem
Your skills at reading seem to desert you at opportune times. I said 'we don't have time for'... in repect towrds plotting against people. All of the folks doing work quite simply don't have time for creating neferious schemes.
In any case, as you demonstrate over again, your subtle commands of English language and writing skills with retoric debate far surpass my meager abilities.
-sp
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain
-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide
Don't be so humble
You make me look to the dictionaries from time to time, something I guess you don't have to.
;-)
Distributed authentication
I suggest you read this thread http://drupal.org/node/31716 and decide how you want to proceed. Hope this helps. I'd hoped you'd find this issue, but seeing as you asked the question several times I thought I'd steer you to the reasons why you've been getting the answer's you've gotten.
Laura
===
pingVision • scattered sunshine
_____ ____ ___ __ _ _
Laura Scott :: design » blog » tweet
Reading into it
DriesK's change to the front page was a test to see how best to get posts for support answered. The result of removing this thread from the front page is a side effect.
That said, check again. I clicked this link from the front page, so perhaps Dries has already reversed this change?
I've spent a lot of time replying here because I'm hoping -- perhaps in vain -- that folks who want their ideas implemented and work submitted will benefit from the comparison between what didn't work for eldarin, and what did work for webchick. I'm thinking not of eldarin specifically, but of others reading this thread that had share his view.
I've read a lot of threads in the past few weeks, where various folks post claims of iniquity and demands for more friendliness in the community, to have their work posted or posted quicker, to have changes they suggest in open forum implemented immediately; that nature of thing.
Really, really, really -- in any forum and in your daily life -- if you see a need you should: point it out; discuss it with the community affected, weighing pros and cons; and, if you are able, fill the need.
We used a slogan when I worked in retail, "Own the problem." Whenever you see a problem, take ownership of it and follow through to see that it is resolved.
_________
bob-thompson.com
No
I'm a writing teacher. To borrow from the biblical, we teach people to write rather than giving them writing. So you would be welcome to use my contact form if you rewrite something, and I would be glad to discuss with you how you might improve it more directly.
As for taboos, the trick to those topics is that you have to
1) Understand exactly why it is sort of taboo.
2) Delicately approach the topic to open it up so that it is no longer taboo, so that it will readily be discussed.
3) Realize that a lot of people on this site are very, very busy. If they feel like a topic has been adequately addressed, they may not take the time to comment on it because they make a value judgment that other work is more important, that they can do more for Drupal by working on something else. We all make choices like this, and we have to respect everyone else's choice to decide where their time is best spent.
Ok
Since you won't help on the concrete issue of this thread topic, I'll go by your helpful expert-advice general guidelines (thank you ;-) ..
Well, analyzing the seemingly taboo topic I raised here:
1) I don't understand why it should be taboo to mention how to improve including others in decison-making about drupal.org directions, especially not when we're talking about paying contributors to drupal.org. Can you ?
2) I don't see anything offending with my posts opening this topic. Can you ?
3) I can't recollect ever seeing anyone touching on this specific topic during the last year or so, including some even older posts I have been reading. Have you ?
So, to sum it up - you're taking a hopeless stance if you try and imply that every flaming post hurled at me or others is my and other writers' own fault. Period.
Some here on drupal.org just are very trigger-happy when it comes to bursting out whatever dominates their state of mind. It's not about being politically correct in whatever form we express ourselves.
Besides, we're a melting pot of people from all over the world, and it's e.g perfectly ok to use a word like "negro" where I come from, while it's perhaps seen as racist where you hail from. Granted, the english language is the most expressive in the world, but do we all have to be experts in the english language, rhetorics and cultural diplomacy to even dare post on drupal.org ?
I'm not going to argue with
I'm not going to argue with you. If you find that your ideas are not well-received and that you getting flamed, you can choose to change your rhetorical approach. Once again, I I will renew my offer to give you some feedback on a piece of writing by email.
And in answer to your first two questions, yes. Easily. Try to imagine what others with differening view points might think rather than remaining in your own subject position. It's an important component of producing reader-based rather than writerly-based writing.
Ahh, feelings
Hmm, I probably am a "victim" of trying to be objective sometimes, and discuss actual topics and not individual persons when avoidable.
I probably should make out a psychological profile of each and everyone that might misunderstand what is the topic I raise, and carefully word it so that their toes won't get trampled ?
Maybe being an independent contractor/entrepeneur for years and being occupied with creativity, innovation, effectiveness, customer satisfaction, accountability etc. did not make myself a HR expert. I never did have to fire anyone, nor did I think about anyones feelings when proposing improvements to software or any other projects. I had business and progress in my mind.
;-)
So I just don't get what those feelings so opposed to the original topic can be, but you might enlighten me ?
No. You don't create a
No. You don't create a "psychological profile of each and everyone." That isn't what rhetoric is about. Otherwise, in reference to your original post:
Obviously, I don't expect that you will agree personally with everything I've said here in terms of your position. But you've asked for observations about why people might not be interesting in discussing this post and how your rhetorical choices might not be effective. So while you might disagree with these views, you should accept these as possible views. Then consider how a more rhetorically effective document might persuade people with these views, rather than merely stating your own personal opinion each time you speak/write.
...
Thanks for at least looking properly at the thread topic. ;-)
I have a really good answer for you guys tomorrow. It needs a bit of working on first; I'd like to get it sounding the right way for you. The latest posts really got me back on the original topic again, believe it or not ... I know you guys will appreciate that as much as I do.
"at least"?
"at least"? was i supposed to do something else? :-)
but seriously, i generally try to stay out of these types of discussions since i feel like i should be answering support questions or working on drupal docs instead. getting heavily involved in these controversial "what drupal should be doing" discussions takes away from what time i have.
nevertheless, let me renew my suggestion. join the drupal-docs list and help with documentation for drupal. everyone agrees that better documentation is needed, and i think that anyone who can write very well is morally obligated to assist ;-)
Another suggestion, if you're interested
If you really don't like the tone of all the threads you're involved in, perhaps you could consider not approaching them like a competition, where the discourse only ends if you are satisfied that you've won the battle.
Almost all of the exchanges I've had with you feel like a macho competition where I have to work hard to avoid getting stabbed with your electronic pencil. Just an observation.
In the end, as you've stated yourself, clout in a virtual community is an illusion, so I think you could agree that approaching talking about Drupal competitively isn't necessary.
- Robert Douglass
-----
Rate the value of this post: http://rate.affero.net/robertDouglass/
I recommend CivicSpace: www.civicspacelabs.org
My sites: www.hornroller.com, www.robshouse.net
I agree - You're a good writer
eldarin,
You're an excellent writer. I think you should review webchick's handbook on the correct way to submit documentation to get it reviewed and posted. She explained in her original post that it took her a lot of trial and error to get to the point that her submissions were reviewed and posted.
_________
bob-thompson.com
Donation is a Gift
I am not sure this is true. My take on a donation is that it is freely given, and that it's use is entirely up to the discretion of the recipient, though I have no legal experience in such matters.
From a personal standpoint, my decision to give a donation is a "thank you" for services rendered, with no implied commitment by either party.
When I tip a waitress it's for the dinner she brought me, not the dinner I expect to eat tomorrow, and her acceptance of that tip is not a promise to improve tomorrow's dinner.
_________
bob-thompson.com
um...
ok, at the time of this comment, this thread is 13583 words in total. It's been about 82 hours since the first post, which is roughly 165 words per hour. There are 14 users contributing to this thread (not including me, 'cause I'm not really contributing).
14 people. 82 hours. ONLY 13583 words? Damn. We have to work harder if we want to make that 50000 word novel by the end of the week.
This thread's done. Put a fork in it.